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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Diverse paths, shared purpose: Driving innovation through varied career journeys
In this episode of the SheCanCode podcast, we’re joined by Charlotte Seiler and Réka Leisztner from the Digital Consulting team at Zühlke - two women with distinctly different career journeys but one powerful shared purpose: to drive more human-centered, effective innovation in the digital space.
Charlotte brings deep experience in innovation and entrepreneurship, while Réka's background in technical product development and industrial robotics adds a grounded, systems-based lens.
Together, they share how their varied paths shape the way they solve problems, collaborate with clients, and create tech solutions that actually work for people. Whether you're pivoting careers or looking to bring more diversity of thought to your work, this episode is packed with insight and inspiration.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
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Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in again. I am Katie Batesman, the Managing Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing diverse paths, shared purpose driving innovation through varied career journeys. I've got two wonderful ladies, so I'm very lucky to have two guests with me. I've got the wonderful Charlotte and Rekha from the Digital Consulting team at Zulka, two women who, distinctively, with distinctively different career journeys, but one powerful shared purpose to drive more human-centred, effective innovation in the digital space. Welcome, ladies. Thank you so much for joining us on Spilling the Tea.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1:It's a pleasure to have you both here to chat about your journeys. We'd love to kick off with a little bit about you, if that's okay. So, charlotte, should we start with you? Yes, for sure.
Speaker 3:Well, hi everyone. I'm Charlotte, Charlotte Saylor. I work as a Senior Consulting Manager at Zilke in the Digital Consulting team, and my focus lies mainly on innovation, user centricity, but also sustainability, so I always combine those three aspects in my work.
Speaker 1:Incredible. And were you that type of person at school who knew you wanted to go into tech, or you like a lot of our community who fell into tech?
Speaker 3:I completely fell into tech. I have to say I was not tech savvy at all from the start. It was never the one dream I had, but I'm very happy to be here now. So I feel my career brought me here through, yeah, quite a journey.
Speaker 1:Good, good, that's good to hear. We love it when people come in in just weird and wonderful routes and that you don't have to take that traditional techie path into tech Rekha yourself. Welcome. Tell us a little bit about you and what you do at Zolka.
Speaker 2:Hey, thank you very much. It's a really great pleasure to be here, so thanks a lot for the opportunity. So I'm Rekha Rekha Leissna, working also at Zürich as a senior consultant, digital consultant, and I have actually a technology background. Although I didn't start with the very deep, deep technology, I worked and focused my career entirely in the product management for technology products, specifically in the robotics, in the automation, and how I got into this field that I'm an opposite of Charlotte. I was always very fascinated about the technology, so as a child I was also like not the Barbie type person, but the let's take things apart and try to build them back, which never really worked, but anyway, and actually that is how I also got into this field, because I was quite young when I decided that I want to kind of solve problems with technology, and this is how I got into the university when I started studying industrial engineering. So that was really driven by that, that I want to work in the field of technology. Yes, Amazing.
Speaker 1:I bet you were hilarious as a child to live with. It's a very, very annoying. I'm assuming you've taken something apart again. Was there someone at home that was kind of encouraging you in that way? Or a teacher at school, or what was that? Just you?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, actually my parents were. So I come from with a musician family where my, my dad was working in in the music engineering field so as a sound engineer and so so he was already very techie person and they saw very fast that I'm like interested in this field. So I was kind of like eight years old when I got my first software game where I could program something. So they let me to try out these things which was not my focus, so eventually I didn't do, but they supported me along the way and also the high school they always saw that it's this direction and it's absolutely fine to not to be too much in, let's say, grammar or whatever, but it's more for maths and physics. So I had the opportunity to try out in a very early age. So I'm very find not to be too much in, let's say, grammar or whatever, but it's more for maths and physics. So I had the opportunity to try out in a very early age. So I'm very grateful for that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and that you felt encouraged that you wanted to see that through to university and then and then beyond, because so many people think, as a child, I really love that and then they kind of lose their way or they might have a bad experience at university for instance, and think, oh, you know, I didn't actually make it into the tech industry. Um, it is great that some ladies they do make it through all the way to to the industry. I mean, on that note, you you both come from very different professional backgrounds, which is great, and one of the reasons why this podcast started started to talk to people that come into the tech industry from all different walks of life and, thankfully, find their way in. I wanted to ask a little bit about how did your unique journeys lead you into business consulting and what drew you to this space. Charlotte, should we start with you there?
Speaker 3:Yes for sure. So I was studying liberal arts and sciences in my bachelor's and then transitioned into sustainable design, so I always had a focus on this human-centred approach, but also from a very holistic point of view. So when I approach problems, I always want to understand who are the diverse stakeholders that are involved, which topics or which environment is shaping them, and for that you really need to have a very broad understanding of the world. You need to have a broad understanding of humans. To have a very broad understanding of the world, you need to have a broad understanding of humans, of human behavior, but also of trends, of even political topics that are coming up, so really understanding in which area we're living and in which field we're working.
Speaker 3:Precisely my first job brought me into AI innovation. I was working for a technology agency where I was growing the topic of AI as a sort of on a also public-private partnership level, so looking at building relationships between businesses but also in the political sphere. So how can we promote the topic, how can we bring awareness about this topic to a broader range of the public? And from that I was so inspired by bringing people together, by combining topics and really working on innovation with this diverse range of perspectives that I then started um as an entrepreneur with my own innovation consultancy, which was called getting their consulting, and we actually had a focus on innovation, but always with a the aspect of sustainability.
Speaker 3:And in this realm of consulting companies but also ngos and public stakeholders, I was really able to bring all my background together, to fuse all this knowledge and to to bring that um to the the tech field, but also um to to teams that are maybe a bit further removed from technological innovation. And, yeah, just being an entrepreneur was very inspiring and it also comes with its challenges Not for the fun of it, exactly. So, after three years of successfully running the company with my co-founder, we decided to wrap it up for the moment and, yeah, then I joined Zylka afterwards and it's really nice to also work with bigger teams now with even more diverse perspectives, and, yeah, to go into the different teams, the different companies, looking at different sectors, different industries and really understanding what are your innovation challenges and how can I bring all my knowledge and the knowledge of the team together to help you with this one challenge.
Speaker 1:I love that you you started there talking about. You were started with art and design and innovation and all of these things you. There's that misconception that none of those really relate to the tech industry, and I absolutely love it when people mention creative things about working in tech because, like you said there, all of your skills suddenly fused together to the stars aligned and you're now in a creative role where you focus on innovation. And it was like all of those things come together and people on the outside of tech seem to think I'm just going to be sitting on my own all day. Coding. It's not creative, it's just that's it. And it's always so amazing to share actually what it is like to work in tech and that you can be really creative. Um, with that, I know you fell into tech. So what was that kind of your thought as well? Like if somebody had mentioned the tech industry to you, would you have thought oh no, like, that's not me, I'm quite arty, I'm quite.
Speaker 3:I like design thought oh no, like that's not me. I'm quite arty, I'm quite, I like design. That's exactly what I thought in the beginning. But I have to say credits to my mom, who always pushed me to also explore topics that are a bit further removed from my comfort zone. So she was always the one, already when I was quite young, to say, hey, this seems to be a field for boys, but why don't you try it out? Because it does not come naturally to me. I'm not like Rekha, taking everything apart as a child, but I'm very curious about the world and I'm also curious to understand where are the decisions being made, where are the big drivers of our society? And I do see that a lot in the tech field, where you still have a predominantly male environment overall. I mean, we're changing that now, but still and I think for me it was also a good challenge to really understand and to not shy away from these more tech-driven topics.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and, as you said, we're moving in the right direction. There's still a lot of work to be done and some brilliant companies, like Zorka, that are moving the needle in that direction as well and making sure that you fall into the right company at the right time. Rekha, what about yourself? What about your journey? How did that lead you into business consulting?
Speaker 2:from you know that child who wanted to tinker and take things apart, and then you ended up in business consulting yeah, um, so I, when I, when I started like studying this industrial engineering, um I I really enjoyed from the perspective that you really handle different problems and then you try to solve it with some sort of tangible solutions. Um, and then we had like a lot of factory visits, which I think that was the point when I I fell in love with the industry as such, because you really see how things are being built and it's like very inspiring. And but, interestingly, after finishing my, my bachelor degree, I was kind of like indecisive because there were a lot of like sort of like engineering or design work. When you already get like this thing that you need to solve, like you just need to do the how and then you put that into a modeling software or you do the engineering. And then and I was, I started questioning actually this is, this is something for me, is it really that I like to do, or I it's something as more some some other topics more challenging me. So I actually rake in that sense and uh, and then I I was, uh, I was still like researching, thinking around that what I'd like to do, and slowly um form into my head that I want to be on the problem space, like I really want to be on the thing that understanding the problem and then coming up with the concept and then handing over, in the right quality, to the engineering team.
Speaker 2:And this is how I found the product management master degree that I did eventually, and then, very interestingly, that also brought me into design thinking and and, funnily like, even though we never met before with Charlotte, we came from the same community and and and it's super interesting to see that how, like, eventually, two different backgrounds chipped into the same community and then using the same methodology and tools for slightly different purpose, because Charlotte is taking in a very high level, and then using the same methodology and tools for slightly different purpose, because shadow is taking in a very high level, and then I, I take it in a very production side already on the product level, so to say, or the system level, and uh, and then this product management or yours or or solution manager area was the thing that I like. Okay, that's it, that's what I like to do. And uh, and that where I found myself very comfortable and then where I can utilize my skills the best, and uh, and then I started. I just started traveling in this journey. So I got a job opportunity in Munich and then I was at the beginning in the consigning field, but it was really working on on on concepts and products and, um, and after quite some years, also in the robotics, in as product management and process management, um, I I decided that I'd like to have like a little bit more diverse challenges and that is how I got into consulting.
Speaker 2:Because what you have in consulting is that you have projects for a certain period of time, either with the same client, same company, but different products, or you have projects for a certain period of time, either with the same client, same company, but different products, or you have different clients as well, so you get to know the world in a totally different perspective.
Speaker 2:Every time you learn something new. It's very beautiful, to be honest, because you got like a little bit of expert on everything, and this is how I got into it. But also sharing the journey with Charlotte, I also had my own staff employment period of time. It wasn't a consultancy, it was more of an agency, where I also learned a lot about how to have a business mindset. It's not enough to really focusing only on the delivery and then it's like you focus on this product and you solve this problem, the like delivery. And then it's like you you focus on this product and you solve this problem, but you also have to think about how to get the new one, how you really scare your, your environment, your business, whatsoever. So then I ended up in this entire kind of like interface between this business and also still doing consulting.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yes, you, you're so right, um, especially as, uh, business owners and having that, that mindset as well. We've had a few conversations on here about founders of companies and working in a startup environment and kind of that crazy mindset that it can take. It takes a certain type of person to have to deal with the challenges that come with that and to keep going, and that really makes you as a person as well and then leads you on to your next job. As to, you take all of those skills with you and it takes you in into your next role.
Speaker 1:Um, when, when you do that um breaker also, it sounds like your job is quite satisfying because the way you talk about it and it says problem solving and that must be mentally, that must be very satisfying that you work on something, find a problem. By the end of the year, you must be like I've done this, this, this and this, and it's like you can tick those things off, because I've worked at companies where you look back and you think we had loads of meetings about meetings and we didn't solve anything. It sounds like yours is very kind of you.
Speaker 2:You sounds like you move forward and find, solve problems for people yeah, that's uh, that's true, it's not always, of course, comes up with the best outcome, but, uh, but also these methodologies that we share, which are a lot uh, um, and mindset and human centricity, and then how to translate it into the technology, the tech industry. That also leads us into the certain direction, that, okay, it's fine if something is not perfectly worked out. It's just more about that how you identify the risks ahead and then how you mitigate them and what things you're willing to sacrifice. And I think, when it comes to like what Charlotte also mentioned, is that it's very male driven industry. Of course, the technology, for certain aspects, of course, is changing. Also, more women got into these kind of education.
Speaker 2:But that's what I find very beneficial to have this kind of mindset, this kind of soft skills, which is not really focusing that hard of this technology solution. That doesn't matter what we talk about. We have to solve this by tech. But we also put into this human aspect, put to the program management perspective, this kind of like, more like this empathy and human centricity into it, which solve the things in a different way. So eventually, of course, not everything ends up very successfully, but it's still going into the direction. Okay, we have an obstacle here and how we solve it. Not necessarily only with some sort of I don't know steel and screws, but also just in a bit of a more soft way, and I think that brings a lot of value, and this is where we can bring and add a lot of value eventually to have a successful project.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely yes yeah, yeah, finding your way around those challenges and um and and helping your um clients um. Charlotte, I wanted to ask you, with your experience in innovation, management, sustainability and entrepreneurship, how has working across different industries shaped your approach to designing future focused solutions? You come with quite a mix of experience.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly, and I think that's especially valuable in consulting, of course, but also in any sort of problem or solution finding. So, um, when I tackle a new challenge, I always first look at um, yeah, as said, who are the different stakeholders involved, but also, what kind of challenge are we looking at? So it's really about thinking with an entrepreneur mindset. So I don't see problems, I only see challenges that always have a sort of solution, which might not be the obvious one that we all think about from the start, but which then emerges over time. So for me, it's really important with any new project that I face to first understand the context properly and then to think from the start what can my diverse perspective bring to the project? And then also to consult the right people perspective bring to the projects and then also to consult the right people. So usually I'm not on a project alone. I always build a team or we are put into a team together, where the different perspectives, as rika said, also merge well together.
Speaker 3:And I always also, in the start, look at can we already implement some, some sustainability principles within the project. So, for example, if I look at a big data program that we have done it's looking at? Are there possibilities of having, for example, a data-driven sustainability approach, looking at which data could we maybe also collect to benefit the company's sustainability strategy? Or is there a way of making a process leaner and more efficient to obviously, in the end, always save costs and benefit the business, but this might also reduce, for example, coding capacity or data storage capacity, which in the end, is also beneficial for the environment. So it's really about first understanding the problem scape, thinking in this entrepreneurial way of like yes, we can for sure change something about this, but then also looking at how can we also benefit, but then also looking at how can we also benefit the environment and also humans that are connected with this topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, incredible and, like you said, bringing all of those wonderful skills that you've learned from lots of different roles and areas that you've worked in to to this. It sounds like you have such a variety in your job as well, like when you get things in you do you have those moments where you're like oh wow, like this is a challenge, but this is gonna be like a, like, a good one or sometimes at those moments where you go, oh I have no idea how we're gonna do this, this, but let's move on.
Speaker 1:Like you said, that entrepreneurship like let's just move forward, let's just keep moving.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think that comes with the job right Sometimes, because I'm not focused on one industry currently, so sometimes you are thrown into the next project and suddenly you might have to learn either about tokenized digital money or you have to understand, um, a whole uh industry around rubber manufacturing. So, like it can be very diverse, and I think the more I am consulting and the more I'm working with the different tech fields, um, I can also shape my path a bit more, um, yeah, in a more focused way, and obviously there are those moments where I'm a bit overwhelmed and I think then the most important part for me is then to take a step back and to consult my colleagues and also get their perspectives in and to be like hey, you know how can I structure this better, or do you have access to any other knowledge base that I can use? So I always love working in the team and I think this also benefits innovation massively when you bring in all sorts of different stakeholders.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and learning to navigate that throughout your career. I think we get better at that as we go through our careers, but it takes practice. Um rick your background in r&d software robotics. That's quite a background. Um is fascinating. So how does your technical foundation help bridge the gap between product teams and business needs?
Speaker 2:yes, that's, uh, that's one of the crucial, most important thing that we do and where we also see that the companies are needing help. That is a very specific approach that we started to apply not so long ago. I mean, the industry started to think in this complex system. That's saying that we are not handling a product as just a piece of hardware, but it's, it's it's called contributing into the entire ecosystem. So, so we don't have, for example, a small, a loudspeaker anymore. They all connected to everything and they had had so many smart features and so on. And, uh, this is where, um, this is where this mindset of like having this business idea and how to translate into, to actually rnd and then start having this technical concept being built is is where it's really helped. The the procedure. So, learning many things from different industries, also having some sort of this designer background or design mindset background, and then having this capability to address the problem in a different way and think in a complex system, that is actually what is closing the gap, so to say so, um, what we usually focus on. And then this is where a lot of different um background is chipping into it again, and and that's why I encourage everybody, even though they are not having an engineering background, just join this industry because it's really helping that.
Speaker 2:We always have to think about it, whether the solution or the thing that these requirements came from, business, that we want to do this, whatever crazy technology or crazy thing on the market that, is it actually feasible? We can make it. It doesn't make any business value not necessarily money, but that's something that the company can benefit it. And is it actually desired on the market? So is it really solving the real problem? And that mixture? It's not one person cannot decide it alone, right? So there's someone is a domain knowledge in technology. Someone is a domain knowledge of what the market needs and how is and how the user is interacting with this entire environment, and also someone who can think about what is good for the company and then what kind of product strategies we can build on it. And before anything moving into R&D, before that we need to consider this aspect and this is where this human centricity also comes into the perspective and then thinking about the solution as an entire system.
Speaker 2:And I have a very good example, although they were just small projects, where a person joined the consignancy the former consignancy where I worked for and she had, like, a classical music background and she joined this type of work. Of course there's some sort of basic understanding. It needed, needed to adapt to the business and then the other, the specific industry. However, this totally different background, this totally different knowledge bring so much value to the project. Because if we're sitting in the same thing and then we are from robotics or we are from software robotics as an industry, or we are focusing on software solutions or whatsoever, we are so siloed and so close our mindset into it that we cannot really think out of the box and um, and these different backgrounds are also, like, really helping to open our mindset and think about that. Hey, we don't need to come up with the same thing again which we came up 10 years ago. There is a totally different perspective that we can look at the problem from. So I really encourage that. Also, different backgrounds are coming in too.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. Yes, I love that. I love everything you just said, because I completely agree with different backgrounds and experiences and also even both of you being from an entrepreneurial background, like you just said there, rekha, about we have to step back sometimes and think is it good for the company? You must get people as well come in, especially with like buzzwords flying around, and they'll be like we want AI. And you must be like let's not go wild. Is it good for the company? Does it save you money?
Speaker 1:All of these things where you have to take a step back and think, like you said, if you were just to focus on robotics and be like that's my area, I'm going to tell you why we should be doing this in this area, instead of looking at it from above and thinking but when I was an entrepreneur, this is, this is how I would think of my business, um, and and whether or not it's worth it. Uh, you must kind of do you feel like you have to rein people in sometimes as well and be like we don't have to go wild. Do we need that really?
Speaker 2:yeah, this requires a lot of like. Um, yeah, challenging the environment, that's definitely. And then challenging mindset, where the, let's say, as a company whose knowledge is like really everywhere in the air, so it's like blood or whatever, and some things are so obvious, and then stepping out from them, it's challenging Accepting people who are coming from not necessarily that hard domain knowledge, but let them in, let them them to work, let them to bring in this different mindset and and uh, that is many times a big challenge, yes, and there's really pushing people. But if you, if, if you do it in a very good manner, and then your goal is actually just serving the society, serving the people, serving the project and eventually it's possible to, in a reasonable manner, of course it's like if it doesn't make any sense, no need to push it further. But it's um it, it, yeah, it's, it's possible to to go through on this challenge.
Speaker 1:Yes yes, definitely, and on that note, I wanted to ask you about um. Obviously both of you focus on human-centered innovation, so what does that mean to each of you, and how do you keep the end user at the core of complex digital transformations? Um raker, you just touched on it a little bit there about kind of just always remembering to bring it back to society and the end user. And what? What does that mean to to both of you, that human centered innovation?
Speaker 3:so so what does human-centeredness mean to me? I always place the human at the center of my projects. So whenever I start any challenge, I want to understand first who would be the users that are eventually interacting with our solution, with our service. So that could be, for example, with the creation of personas. I work still a lot with personas.
Speaker 3:Really mapping certain characteristics, certain needs or behaviors of the end users and how do we come about with these personas usually involves a lot of interviews about with these personas usually involves a lot of interviews. So I always start with understanding who are the stakeholders involved from the client side as well, and do they maybe already have some knowledge about their end users? Are there maybe even some internal end users that I can access directly? And then I always try to gain access also to some of their clients, so people that are actually interacting with the solution, which sometimes turns out to be quite difficult. Because, yeah, I'm sure you've talked about this before many times, but there's always this gap between companies thinking they know what their clients want. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:It turns out it's often quite different, right. So always keeping an eye on that, that's a challenge also and to challenge teams and to not shying away from it, of really going out in the field, really talking to people, taking the time as well for those interviews, for empathizing with the stakeholders. I think that's so important and is often overlooked. So that's always my way in understanding who like. Where does our product live afterwards when we bring it to the world?
Speaker 1:yeah, and you're, you're so right, it does sometimes take someone from the outside of a company to see things from a first perspective and then find a delicate way of communicating that back and being like maybe you're not quite understanding what your users are wanting, because you do get so in the thick of it every day and you think you know in the thick of it every day and you think you know, and and we do it constantly with our community, because we, we love people to tell us about our community and what they think our community is doing and their needs, because we're so in there all the time. You can get very blinded by what, what's going on, um, and you have to keep listening to the needs of your end users, um, so it's exactly to do that and for you to then communicate that back of uh, in a kind of a challenging way.
Speaker 3:Sometimes those soft skills with you must be almost just as important as those technical skills, like they 100% that yes, exactly, it's all about people's management and um, really understanding who you're talking to and how to convince them right. But one of the arguments I always use is like just futures research. So tech trends are evolving so quickly nowadays that if you don't understand your future users or you don't anticipate future behavior, there's no chance you're going to be in the market for long. No chance. So that's always the killer argument, and when we talk about this usually then there's more time invested also to really understanding where the market is headed, how behavior is changing, what are future expectations towards my product? Right? So I really need to understand that as a company nowadays. If not, I risk being irrelevant, and that's obviously not a good strategy.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely yes, but you spin a lot of plates when you have a project Raika. What does human-centered innovation mean to you, when you know trying to keep the end user at the core of some really complex transformations?
Speaker 2:Right. So that's why I suggested that Charlotte starts, because, as you could hear, is that really, when you come up with an idea itself, it's already have to think about the future users, and then it's whether this idea itself is serving any real problems as such. And I think everybody experienced that, no matter who listening it, that many times the ideas are coming top down, that a C-level says we're going to do this and that was not research in a way that whether it's really serving any sort of innovation, sustainability matters or whatever. But let's assume we have an idea of flow and the idea that we start working on is already approved or validated on the market, that it makes sense to go on with this type of innovation and product idea. And this is where um, on the more on the on the product development level, the human centricity comes into the perspective, because we often say okay, yeah, we did interviews because we ask people. But um, such as like requirements, interviews are also on different level. So, when it comes to validating the idea that it's okay, it makes sense to invest money in it. That's the first, but then it moves into okay, now we have the core concept, but what is actually? It's going to do so.
Speaker 2:For example, when we say easy to use, that like we need to deep dive in it and understand that what easy means. And there is like often, just for example, if you say in an industrial setup that it's easy to commission, that is often an example. Then if you ask a technician, the technician just want to have the huge set of settings because it's so expert in the last 30 years, and then he knows what he wants to do. But if you ask for a new operator on the field, then they just want to have that. It's actually with a few click it's done. And so understanding what is actually easy mean in that sense just to give you this example that requires again human centricity and um, and that already in the system design level, where we are at closing the gap between this business and rnd what we talked about already this is where human centricity comes into perspective. That again we sit down not necessarily with the same people, it's with the personas that charlotte, for example, idea find out already. Or in that level, we sit down with the exact personas and we try to understand that how they want to interact with this system. And then even there is even more level, because when we have, like, an interface and the ux designers also again sit down and understand that how they need to behave, and then, uh, involve the people.
Speaker 2:And then there is another thing that is very interesting, that we often talk about interviews, but, uh, but to be honest, one of the best and most exciting and and and bringing extreme lot of value just it's expensive is to really observe the people. So if you are innovating something on the production side, that you really go there and then you make your hands dirty and then you try out what they do, what they struggle with, and that it's an amazing way of doing it. But if you look at it, r&d they're not often going to that level. So that is something that very human centricity is incorporated into the R&D process as such. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:I love that you mentioned when people say we need to make it easy, and what does easy mean for some people and other people? I had somebody tell me that recently their company, they were working on um, uh, they were very focused on data, um literacy, and they said we, we are working on making sure that everybody knows in our company how they can use the data and what it means to everybody, the problem being us over in data had decided to kick off this project and no one else could understand it to us. We knew what we were doing and she said it was how do you ensure that the entire company can access the data, knows how to read the data and can use the data? And she said it was just so.
Speaker 1:It took us so long to get there because what we thought was easy, because we are the data department, wasn't easy to everybody else. So, um, she said we finally got there. But it's one of those things where, yes, you are right, especially from um, from your perspective, you can see that it's almost like. You can see that not everybody is taking on this as much as you think they are. Not everybody is seeing this as easy.
Speaker 2:And how to make sure that again it comes back to that human centered and maybe just to add something to that, is that this is where the technology becomes very, very interesting, because one thing is that identifying what easy is, but then, and only then, moving into that. Okay, now we understand what easy is and how do we solve it with the technology. And just to give an example that you know, yesterday we solved something with a button. Today we put that into this on the screen, and then the tomorrow you look at it and it's solved and it's an. It's a real situation, because this is the phone unlock, right, and so at the first, just to understand that, like, okay, we understand now what easy means, but, and only then, moving into the technology solution becomes really human-centered, then yeah, yes, exactly yes.
Speaker 1:So many moving parts to address, um. So how do your different perspectives challenge or complement each other when collaborating on projects and and can you share an example where your approach has created a better outcome together? Charlotte, do you want to start there, because we spoke a little bit about how you're more high level as well? So obviously, different perspectives, different ways that you approach challenges. What do you think on that?
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly, I think Rika and me complement each other quite well actually, and we do that also on a regular basis. So what we do often when we start a project, for example, we would consult each other also on our own approaches and methodologies, because we do come from a similar background in terms of design thinking, for example, so how to approach a problem. But we benefit a lot from this exchange in the beginning and also, I think we work quite well in handing over from this more high-level perspective in the beginning to the more detailed one later. So coming from my perspective to Rika's perspective, and then also benefiting a lot from our mutual trust. So, even along a project, if we have some hurdles or some questions, we are sure to be able to call each other or to meet and really look at it together from our different points of view. So that's really helpful.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that, Rekha. I'm assuming you echo what Charlotte just said there and that you both work incredibly well, because I've noticed as well I don't know if you have both noticed this but when you're going through your career as well, you start to figure out what you're good at and what you're not good at, and that it's okay not to be good at everything, and you find that little niche that you think you know what they're my skills and that's my sweet spot and that's how you complement each other as a team. And I think when you first get in the workforce as well, you feel like I have to know everything.
Speaker 1:I'm expected to know everything, and then, especially when you do start in your own business, for instance, and you have to look after a team, you have to relinquish that control and think I don't have to know everything. Everybody doesn't expect me to know everything. I have a team of incredible people that are all experts in in different areas, and this is how we all come together to to help each other. Um, it sounds like you complement each other perfectly on that, though. That you can just do, you know. You can just get together and know sometimes, what each other are thinking, probably as to what the other person is going to say. Um reika, would you agree on that that it's. You know, working with different perspectives can be a challenge, um, as well, but that's great that it just kind of complements your, your work, that you support each other when you collaborate on a project yes, absolutely 100.
Speaker 2:So that's really um, from the, although it's the same same mindset.
Speaker 2:There's our have our, we have our our different focus, and then we can anytime call each other and ask and support each other in that sense, uh, but I would also add that because just the other day we had the travel to Australia, diego, uh, a very nice chat on sustainability.
Speaker 2:Is that why I would come back to that, because that is something that, although I'm in working more in the development environment, or closing this gap between the business and R&D, uh, this is where, um, I found the, the mindset and the methodologies and the processes that Charlotte is establishing very useful, because we have to design to sustainability, we have to design to cost, and I don't need or we, our team, we don't need to be the expert on that, but we can go at any time to the person who knows what kind of measures, what kind of steps, what kind of procedures are needed in order to establish the sustainability. And I'm not talking about here now only from the climate perspective, but also like creating a sustainable product that is long lasting on the market and doesn't create that much waste, or it saves cost, or it saves time or energy or whatever thing, and for that definitely we we need to talk with each other and we need to collaborate together.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, definitely. And talking about that collaborating with each other feeds nicely into diversity of thought as well of thought as well and having those different ideas when you do collaborate, that you're not always coming up with the same thing, or also that you're not only having the same ideas that your clients are having, because that's why they come to you, that they want to. They want you to have a different perspective on things and think about things differently, and that's why they come to you. So I wanted to ask you obviously there's a lot of talk about the value of diverse teams, but, based on your experience, how does true diversity of thought actually impact innovation and outcomes for clients? Imagine if you just kept coming up with the same ideas that they were coming up with. They just wouldn't come to you at all, would they? So who wants to kick off with that about diversity of thought?
Speaker 3:Yeah, maybe I can add to that directly, because I completely second that. I think no innovation is possible without diversity of thoughts, and I would also take it away just from the idea state. I think a lot of innovation that we work on can be quite detailed and maybe even a bit boring, because they just tackle, for example, operational processes and challenges within companies, but that's also where we have the biggest lever sometimes. So this is where we really can turn things around, and I was recently, for example, working on a very big program where we implemented a data-driven organization approach in one company and we started the program from the beginning with streams that were working from building the platform to implementing data products on the platform to defining governance structures, and then I was in charge, for example, of data culture, which is then change and communication and mindset data literacy again.
Speaker 3:And it was so interesting to see all those different perspectives from the start, always working together in sub-teams, also across silo, to really understand each other's needs and problems, and only through this very tight-knit process where we involved every different perspective that was so crucial to the project, only that that we uh, turn it into an actually successfully rolling and running program. So I feel like there is no innovation without diversity and this is like just a very fine, like granular project. But sometimes when I, for example, write uh reports on future trends and really open the lens you know to to what is actually happening in in the market, what is changing for you as a company, I look at different, different markets. I look at different industries. I need to get inspired by what's happening outside of my focus to really understand where we're headed and to really make a difference here.
Speaker 1:Yes, and with that, if you hadn't have had all of those different backgrounds and skills, you wouldn't have been able to move forward in the way that you move forward and to have found that solution. And, like you said, some of those things to some other people might be considered. You said boring, um, but that's where you can really stand out and actually move forward and find a solution. Um, for for a client, um, incredible, very good. What about yourself? About um? You know diverse teams and what does it that mean to you? Actually? How does that actually make an impact? Um, and uh on on innovation, when you're working on projects yeah.
Speaker 2:So I found this topic a very important one and, uh, looking at, um, this very heavy industry where I work in, it's often from many perspective, it's not diverse at all. So, whether we look at it from the gender, or from the background, or from whatever nationality, whatever is that is that or age even, is just really narrowed down into one specific, and the problem with that is that we kick out so many opportunities because we don't have this diversity of thought right, and and I find it, it's a very, very big problem, um, from the perspective that how we can enable innovation if that is just not there, if we're just so much, if we lock ourselves into our room and we don't go out, um, we miss out so many opportunities. That happens around the world. We don't know that they happen, so we don't. We have a problem and we have to fix it, and we can't just think only how we did it in the last 20 years, because we we have only that option and we haven't seen anything else.
Speaker 2:And so I try to push and I try. I'm a big advocate of bringing in different people all the time, from whatever diverse background we just touch baited, like, for example, music, but also from age wise, like enabling younger generation to contribute to it. They have a totally different understanding of the world, especially with this technology that is changing all the time and we are not that update, or the whatever generation is not as update as the 30 years younger one, and just bring that into the room and enable this information to get in. I think it's super important. Challenging, I must say, then, that so I'm not gonna hide this. Uh, I think, uh, and all of us are having this experience. That is sometimes very challenging, but, uh, maybe it's in a right track and we just have to repeat the message over and over again that it's how important it is. And then, what is the value created by that? Maybe talking in value creation perspective, and not just all it must be done, then sooner or later, it's going to be implemented, hopefully.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know so much of our community worry about that as well. I mean you speaking about age. They worry about what if I wanted to do this later in life? And I'm starting again and I'm retraining and actually on our live events, when those questions come up, usually our speakers say to them but you bring all of this experience with you, you're not starting again. You know, you might have owned your own business, you might have been through several different industries already. If you're willing to learn and you're willing to learn the tech part and whatever is needed and necessary now, that's great. But you're not starting from scratch. You're bringing lots of different experiences and skills with you and you can do it at any time and that you would still be so welcomed and valued on a team because of the different perspectives that you're going to bring. So many of our community ask us that about.
Speaker 1:But you know what if I suddenly transition from a completely different career and I've already been in work 20 years. 20 years, that's great. Don't use that as your advantage, that's great. But be willing to be retrained and to you know, soak everything up as a sponge now, but use that to your advantage. And I think people sometimes it's that little nudge that they need to see that if you were in a room and you can have a different perspective, that is welcomed. You know that's not. People are not sitting there thinking, oh you, you can't bring anything to perspective, that is welcomed. You know that's not. People are not sitting there thinking, oh, you can't bring anything to the table, that's welcomed.
Speaker 2:Especially if someone wants to move into the product management or this kind of consulting direction where Charlotte and me are just experienced as much as you can, because one of the biggest challenge of course the mindset of the industry also have to change that if we move into, let's say, product manager, you don't necessarily have to be a whatever expert for 30 years in order to move into that, because then you also have just this narrow thinking but uh, but it's just more like really experiencing a lot of different thing, because when it comes to problem solving you can't ignore other aspects and if you just have never experienced them and it never comes to your mind to incorporate it into your innovation procedure or product development procedure, now it just won't happen. So if someone wants to go into the direction of either, like this, product management or kind of product consulting system, innovation, whatever consulting, business consulting, then I think it's the best if you like experience as much as possible yes, yes, and maybe also adding to that, I think the most important is to just be curious.
Speaker 3:So if you're really curious about the different areas that you're applying your knowledge to, then you will will always learn, you will always adapt and you can always enter a new field of work. And the second thing is to also have a good understanding for the new people you might be working with. So I think for me that was also one of the reasons, for example, why I joined Silke, because I also wanted to understand who are the developers actually working on the code. Who are the people? Yeah, like Rika, also with a more engineering background, you know, like a product development background, like I, also want to understand that mindset and then to see how we can all collaborate Well. I think that's the beauty of it.
Speaker 1:Yes, and being a company where you're allowed to stay curious as well and you're allowed to work curious as well, and you're allowed to work with different teams in that way, because some companies, you find yourself thinking actually it was shot down, that I was too curious, I was asking questions, I was trying to push boundaries on things and finding a, an environment where you can do that. Um, it's so important to to be able to really work on those projects and really enjoy your job and to obviously help the end user and the client in the process. Charlotte Breaker, I could keep talking to you about diverse paths and shared purpose all afternoon, but we are already out of time. It's absolutely flown by. Thank you so much for coming on here and having a chat with um spilling the tea. It's been a pleasure, thank you. Thank you for everybody listening, as always. Thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
