136 Unlocking the Power of Laser Therapy: How K-Laser is Transforming Clinics and Patient Care

Welcome 👋

Welcome back to the Treat Your Business podcast. I’m Katie Bell, and if you’ve ever wondered whether investing in advanced technology like laser therapy could truly transform your clinic, both for your patients and your business, this episode is for you. I’m joined by Dr. Stephen Barabas, Medical Director of VBS Medical, to demystify laser therapy, share real-world results, and answer the big question: is it worth the investment?

Episode Summary 📝

In this conversation, Dr. Stephen and I dive deep into the real impact of laser therapy in clinical practice. We talk about what laser therapy actually does, how it works at a physiological level, and the results clinics are experiencing in both patient outcomes and business growth. Dr. Stephen brings a wealth of experience from both veterinary and human medicine, sharing insights on integrating medical devices, marketing tips, and the future of technology in the health and wellness industry. Whether you’re “laser curious” or ready to take the leap, you’ll hear practical advice to help you make an informed decision about bringing new technology into your clinic.

Key Takeaways ⭐

• Laser therapy is transforming clinics by improving patient outcomes and business performance
• The science behind laser therapy involves power, wavelength, and pulsing, targeting specific tissues for healing
• K-Laser is used widely in both veterinary and human medicine, with proven results in pain management and rehabilitation
• Clinics can see a strong return on investment through increased word of mouth, differentiation, and effective treatment packages
• Leasing options make advanced equipment accessible, allowing clinics to profit from day one
• Marketing, training, and ongoing support are crucial for successful integration of new technology
• Laser therapy is especially profitable in podiatry and has emerging uses in women’s health and rehabilitation
• Investing in technology helps clinics stand out and offer more to their clients

Resources & Links 🔗

• K-Laser UK: klaseruk.co.uk
• VBS Medical: vbsmedical.com

Episode Sponsor
Sponsored by VBS Medical Ltd, exclusive distributor in the UK and Ireland of K-Laser Therapy & Indiba Radiofrequency Therapy.
To learn more about K-Laser Therapy, visit: https://klaseruk.co.uk/why-klaser/
To learn about Indiba Radiofrequency Therapy, visit: https://vbsmedical.com/product/indiba-radiofrequency/
Book your free trial at h

Treat Your Business podcast is proudly sponsored by MBST, the groundbreaking technology revolutionising recovery and rehabilitation. Offering a non-invasive, drug-free solution for musculoskeletal conditions and nerve injuries, MBST works at a cellular level to stimulate regeneration. Expand your services and deliver long-term patient improvements without increasing your workload.

Learn more at mbstmedical.co.uk. 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Katie Bell: If you've ever wondered whether investing in advanced technology, like something like laser therapy, could really transform your clinic? Both in terms of patient outcomes and business performance, then this episode is a must listen. I'm joined by Dr. Stephen Barabas, medical director of K-Laser UK and VBS Medical to demystify what laser therapy actually does share the real world results clinics are seeing and tackle the big question that is [00:00:30] out there.

[00:00:30] Katie Bell: Is it worth the investment? We talk clinical impact, return on investment marketing tips, and what the future Of laser therapy and using medical devices in your clinic looks like in the health and wellness industry. So whether you are laser curious or whether you are maybe already ready to take the leap, this conversation is going to give you real insights into what you need to know to make a really informed decision.

[00:00:56] Katie Bell: Dr. Stephen, welcome to the Treat Your Business [00:01:00] podcast. 

[00:01:00] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Very glad to be here, Katie, and yeah, I've been looking forward to this. 

[00:01:04] Katie Bell: Yeah, me too. Me too. And our listeners will be very much looking forward to, hearing it from an expert's voice, I think is the most important thing on this podcast for me. Dr.

[00:01:15] Katie Bell: Stephen, before we dive in, just give everybody a brief kind of who you are, what it is that you do on what you are going to be talking about today. 

[00:01:23] Dr. Stephen Barabas: I'm actually a veterinary surgeon. So my doctor is a veterinary doctor. I have been working in the medical [00:01:30] field for the last 15 years. And maybe, or maybe not, the audience knows that actually vets, unlike doctors, can treat humans and animals.

[00:01:37] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Not that I do a lot of hands-on treating these days. But I got involved with medical devices, having been a director of a big pharmaceutical called MSD. So I came from it from a background of needing science and also I've always whether it was in practice or in working as a director on a pharmaceutical company, I was always interested in pain [00:02:00] management, and in rehabilitation. When I came back and lived in the UK that's when I started up, first of all, VBS directories is my veterinary company, and then VBS Medical, both of which work on cutting edge devices and supplementation for the highest level of rehabilitation and pain management.

[00:02:15] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So that's been my interest for most of my life really. 

[00:02:18] Katie Bell: Wow. How do you split your time at the moment? And then Dr. Stephen, do you still hands on with the dogs and the cats and the animals or? 

[00:02:26] Dr. Stephen Barabas: I'm speaking actually from a medical clinic that I set up as a training [00:02:30] center.

[00:02:30] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So I have a training center and an a therapeutic clinic where I have two sports therapists, an osteopath. A podiatrist and some aesthetic doctors. So we have a whole range of modalities that we use here, but to keep my clinical skills going on the veterinary side I work one in two weekends as a vet.

[00:02:48] Dr. Stephen Barabas: It allows me to go and and remain a little bit real and understand the challenges of dealing with patients. But also I've always loved the omni competence of being a veterinarian. Where you are a diagnostician, you're [00:03:00] a clinician, and you do the treatments and you can do all of it in one day.

[00:03:03] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Which is quite special. And I'm trying to bring a little bit of that into the human side because I get frustrated by being sent somewhere for bloods and being sent somewhere else to do this and sent somewhere else to do that. And so I've spent the last year gilding a group of individuals together with the equipment that we have to hopefully do a little bit of what I do in veterinary medicine and make maybe the medical side a little bit better.

[00:03:25] Katie Bell: It's amazing. And I was in the vets only last week with [00:03:30] my dog whose annual checkup and vaccinations, and I was sat in the waiting room. And it is funny, isn't it? How now we've built a relationship and I see your stuff. More and more. And there was a big poster in reception about K-Laser, what it can do for dogs, and I was like, oh my goodness. And that's probably been there for ages and I've just never seen it before. 

[00:03:49] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yeah. It was fine. It was through the veterinary that I got involved with K-Laser. So we were outside the USA, the only country in the world that was using K-Laser for the veterinary. The rest of the [00:04:00] 72 countries were only doing human side, right?

[00:04:03] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But despite the fact that I had loved the science and I loved what they were doing, there's nothing better from an a clinician point of view to see it physically in your own hands. And an animal doesn't do placebo. So I came on board for K-Laser because they almost had pharmaceutical grade scientific data to show the safety and the efficacy.

[00:04:26] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But there's nothing like seeing it in your own hands and a dog with [00:04:30] osteoarthritis. The hips doesn't do placebo, it's going to walk better, or it's not going to walk better. It's not doing it to please you. Or a wound which you're expecting to heal over two weeks. Heels in less than three days.

[00:04:41] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Those things can't be done without. Physically seeing it being done in front of you. So that's why I started in the veterinary side and we've got about 500 clinics in the UK using K-Laser. And it's become really the gold standard in regards to veterinary in the human side. We started a little bit later, as I said, 'cause I wasn't quite so [00:05:00] confident starting in there, but the rest of the world was doing great guns, in that area. And then I brought that in and that's where we've built both in the manual therapy, osteo chiro, physio, but also big area has been podiatry for us. Podiatry has grown huge amounts because it's a class four laser. So you can go all the way down to a Class three B, but you can also go to a higher level and treat things quicker and more effectively in a shorter treatment time.

[00:05:24] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But it also allows you with a little tip to be actually to do surgery with it. So you can do [00:05:30] ingrowing toenails and onychomycosis and verucas. Hence, it's a very big dual purpose laser. On the podiatry side. But for yourself in physiotherapy and for most of the practitioners I'm dealing with on osteo and chiropractor we use it as a therapeutic laser.

[00:05:46] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And we've got proof on the depth of penetration. So we know we can go down to about 15 centimeters, which is unusual, and we can do that in a short treatment time. So it fits in with a good clinical practice like yours, [00:06:00] which is busy. The clinicians are doing multiple things. They're like, oh, why do I need another thing in my clinic? Well, As however good a clinician can do they can only do so much with their hands and with a sheet to go home with. And more and more people aren't wanting to be reliant on drugs. and what K-Laser offers them is something that biologically can do. A lot of the physiological things that we cannot do with our hands alone.

[00:06:26] Dr. Stephen Barabas: We can do it both superficially and at depth. So it works [00:06:30]really well with manual therapy. 

[00:06:31] Katie Bell: Yeah. Can you expand on that? When I say expand, briefly expand, yeah. And we've got, most people listening to this have got, a fairly good level of knowledge when it comes to the, human body, the anatomy and, yeah.

[00:06:43] Katie Bell: And physiology. But what. What, how does it work at a physiological level then? 

[00:06:47] Dr. Stephen Barabas: It's more complex than a drug because a drug, obviously, once you've found your molecule, the only thing you can really change is the dosage and the amount of times per day or week that you take one. Okay. Yeah.

[00:06:57] Dr. Stephen Barabas: With a laser, it's actually made up of three different [00:07:00]components. So there's the power. Aspect, which you don't need a lot of power if you're doing wounds, but in doing hips or backs or shoulders or something, osteoarthritis, you need a lot of energy. And the only two ways around that is you have a lot of time, which most people don't in our lives these days.

[00:07:18] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Or you have something which safely delivers a lot of energy in a short timeframe, which is what our laser can do. Okay? The other thing it does is it uses wavelengths and wavelengths target specific molecules in [00:07:30] the body. So it targets hemoglobin in the skin. It targets water for circulation, lymphatic drainage.

[00:07:37] Dr. Stephen Barabas: It targets oxyhemoglobin for dissociation of oxygen and dumping it where it may not be being provided at high enough levels, but it also targets cytochrome C. So cytochrome C is in every cell in our body. The challenge is, can you get deep enough into the cartilage, to the bone cells, into the deep tendons, musculoskeletal, and do it so that [00:08:00] it actually raises the metabolism?

[00:08:02] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And it's no good just raising metabolism because we need the other things of increased circulation, lymphatics, drainage, and oxygen to allow all the nutrients and to allow the oxygen, and to allow that whole ecosystem to improve what we can do by raising the temperature, raising the bar in regards to metabolism.

[00:08:21] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And that's why it works in unison. So there's four wavelengths and it does four separate things, both superficially and deep. And then the final, sorry thing, [00:08:30] just to confuse people a little bit, is the laser can be on continuous which is great for blood circulation and for wounds or antimicrobial, but it can pulse and things like soft tissues.

[00:08:41] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Need high pulsing to optimise their regeneration where bones are a bit more sluggish and they can't take so much energy. So they just, there, there is a bit more slow pulsing on bones and cartilage, so there's different things. So when we treat a joint, our lasers pre calibrated to do 11 phases to [00:09:00] try and optimise each of the cell lines.

[00:09:02] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Where if we're only doing superficial tendons or something, we may only be doing five or six or seven phases and it's all high pulsing to go and optimise the tendon healing. So it depends. 

[00:09:13] Katie Bell: Wow. So when clinicians start using this, what are the key. Clinical benefits, the practitioners notice most when they start using K-Laser in their treatment.

[00:09:22] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So if you noticed, I only spoke about the biology, about what goes on there, because realistically it's not like a nonsteroidal [00:09:30] or a steroid knocking out pain. Yeah. What it does improves the area. So say someone's come in with a contusion of their knee, their big swelling, an acute injury. Because it's so good at lymphatic drainage and stabilising the cells and getting rid of that swelling.

[00:09:47] Dr. Stephen Barabas: A lot of the pain mechanoreceptors is reduced. So the person is less painful and it allows that tissue to start healing more rapidly. So with a big bruise or a really bad swelling on the knee or the ankle [00:10:00] can bring that down very rapidly. Conversely. On the opposite scale where you're talking about some of the neuropathic pains or the osteoarthritis, you can work locally or on the spine and you can help those cells on reducing some of the pain and inflammation by stabilising in the joint some of the inflammatories and making it a nicer environment so it's less.

[00:10:22] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Antagonistic of the nerve endings whilst if you really have someone with a neurological problem, you have to be realistic. You've [00:10:30] got to, you're going to treat them maybe 10, 12 sessions, but you can actually stimulate the nerve cells to form new junctions and more dendritic outgrowths, so you can actually get them to go and have.

[00:10:40] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Both a motor function improvement, but also a new pain pathway so that someone who's got fibromyalgia or a peripheral neuropathy, you can start to make them feel actually better and better sensation. 

[00:10:52] Katie Bell: Wow, that's incredible. So , there's so many ways then that clinicians can use this within their [00:11:00] clinical practice.

[00:11:01] Katie Bell: Yeah. There seems to be a big movement lately from away from. Hands-on treatment as much. When I qualified it was all very much, you spend the entire time with your hands on the patient. And the more and more new clinicians we get coming through, my younger ones they very much have a balance now, which is great.

[00:11:19] Katie Bell: So for the younger ones that are very rehab based, they want to get them in the gym, they want them to be loading and deloading then reload tendons and all these things [00:11:30]that we're hearing all the time. How do you see it working with that? Can they, can that happen sooner and quicker because of Yeah.

[00:11:38] Katie Bell: Healing happening quicker? 

[00:11:39] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So there's two things I can answer that interestingly in America, yeah, they're always interested in the bottom dollar, but also the longevity of how they can treat people. And actually the reason K-Laser grew so quickly was because they were protecting their hands. Not everything needs.

[00:11:53] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Full on massage. Yeah. Yeah. To get the results they're wanting. And sometimes K-Laser can help them a lot with that side of things. So [00:12:00] in America, the massive growth was one profit, but two, can I preserve my body as long as possible so I can stay a clinician for as long as possible? Okay. So for the new generation and for the old generation, K-Laser can allow you not to take away anything that you do and any of the training that you do.

[00:12:17] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But it does protect your body a little bit because you get, when you are really trying to do a thigh or you know. That you are limited in regards to what you can do on a back with your hands, in some respects, it allows you to go and [00:12:30] penetrate down there. Yeah. And it helps you.

[00:12:32] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But biologically it's going to go and work in unison with all your great training on the biology, the physiology, but more importantly understanding the pathology about what you're trying to treat. Sure. 'cause there is different protocols on the machine, depending on whether it's an acute, chronic soft tissue bone.

[00:12:46] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Old or yeah. All those sort of scenarios. So it does work in unison with a good clinician who understands what their look they're trying to treat. And therefore it would work alongside a sports therapist. We've got them in the Premiership clubs [00:13:00] where. You're going to get no better compliant person than someone who's gone and torn their Achilles and wants to be back in a very short season on that pitch again.

[00:13:07] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yeah. They could be treated twice a day. Most of us don't have that luxury in practice of having someone coming twice a day to us. So the majority of the times there's a compromise in how frequent we can treat them. So usually once or twice a week is what we're able to get them in for Someone who's motivated for an acute injury could come in daily if they really wanted to, but it's very difficult to get people in that frequently.

[00:13:28] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But we know that from our [00:13:30] results that twice a week is sufficient. Yeah. And then it will combine with both massage therapy, with all of that structured program, if they're going and doing a program for the gym to build up the muscles. The biggest thing that a clinician has to be scared about.

[00:13:45] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Is not over getting the client to do too much because there will be an analgesic effect if you reduce the swelling. Yep. If you start working on the spine, they will think they're better than they actually are. Yep. Okay. And [00:14:00] I'm an honorary laser clinician at Guys and Thomas's. We set up the hand therapy unit there, and then they've got about nine plastic surgeons and they've got about 22 physios and occupational therapists, and they've got a number of our machines there and the problem was a lot of these people who had really bad hand problems started feeling much better.

[00:14:20] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But their body hadn't physically healed yet. 

[00:14:23] Katie Bell: Yeah. 

[00:14:24] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And so you almost need to hold them back a bit and really read them the riot attack that the analgesic they're going to [00:14:30] feel is not quite how the body's healing. Especially tendon and ligaments. 

[00:14:34] Katie Bell: Yeah. 

[00:14:34] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And They need to go and not spend the whole weekend gardening when they feel better, but actually go and just restrain it little bit and bit by bit.

[00:14:41] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And so this is where it works so well with your new generation of sports therapists and, yeah. And physios where. You're trying to help the client understand that this is a process to get through. We can concertina that and we can improve the quality of the healing, but they must mistake analgesia with healing.

[00:14:58] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yeah. Those two different things. 

[00:14:59] Katie Bell: [00:15:00] Yeah. That's fascinating. And it, I guess in, in the first remote when you said, we can concertina the effect of healing, we can make things happen quicker. You first part, you think how do we make any money by doing this if we're getting people quicker? And faster.

[00:15:14] Katie Bell: How do we see the return on investment? So you've what, you've got 500 machines across lots of clinics now. What patterns have you seen in terms of return on investment when laser is integrated really well with the clinic's treatment [00:15:30] offering? 

[00:15:31] Dr. Stephen Barabas: No. I once I've had a clinic that said, this is too good.

[00:15:34] Dr. Stephen Barabas: It's going to actually it's going to, we're not buying it because it's actually healing patients too well. So there was a client that actually said that to me. Okay. Wow. My, my opinion is, and from the majority of the people out there that we come into this to get people better. 

[00:15:50] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And you and your fantastic Thrive group know that there's nothing better than the word of mouth.

[00:15:55] Dr. Stephen Barabas: We can spend a lot on social media. We can do as many things as possible, but if [00:16:00] you've got a good clinician, you've got a good system, and then you've got good medical devices that differentiates you. That client who may have seen three or four other practices before they ended up with you guys, suddenly realised that they're onto something really good.

[00:16:15] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And they, and more importantly, especially something like osteoarthritis, you're not curing osteoarthritis, but you're improving the quality of it. So you may manage their drugs better, reduce that. It's a lifetime management of those cases. So you're not just discarding them, but you are creating something where [00:16:30] they are genuinely healthier and better out of it.

[00:16:33] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But realistic enough to realize that you're not curing osteoarthritis with musculoskeletal things, hopefully you are going to get them back to the level that they were prior to the injury. Sometimes not, major surgery and things like that, but at least you're going to get their quality of the healing and the scarring much better than it would've been.

[00:16:51] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And those people will talk. They will genuinely be in awe of what's happened to them. 

[00:16:56] Katie Bell: Yeah. 

[00:16:57] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And there is nothing better than them talking to their [00:17:00]neighbor, talking to their friends, talking to the family. They'll become your next customers. So you're not discarding people, you're actually gaining people.

[00:17:08] Dr. Stephen Barabas: It becomes a little bit like the gospel. You start going and getting people to talk about it more. And outside of my clinic, I've got two big billboards with Indiba on one and K-Laser on the other, and. I would say 60% of our clients come in because they see those boards and then, then they become first time clients and then we go and, work with them.

[00:17:27] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And some of them are short term clients, some of them are going to [00:17:30] be long term because of the condition that they have. But that's all good for the business. 

[00:17:35] Katie Bell: Can you you can charge more clearly if you're using 

[00:17:38] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Absolutely. Prices. 

[00:17:40] Katie Bell: You gave me 

[00:17:42] Dr. Stephen Barabas: outcomes. Some of your audience may be rich enough and do it wealthy enough that they may have built problem with their tax bill.

[00:17:48] Dr. Stephen Barabas: That's a nice problem to have so they can obviously buy. Capital equipment and it zeroes their tax bills and things up to 250,000 a year, which is quite a big number. But so the government wants you to invest [00:18:00] in things, but most people buy it through lease options. And a lease option is a very good way of reducing that bill over 3, 4, 5 years.

[00:18:08] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Whatever your budget wants, you can put a deposit down if you feel you need to reduce that, but that means that it generally costs you about between 10 to 15 a working day. Okay. That means you can make profit from day one. Yeah. You only do, you only need to do one treatment a day and you've made profit with that.

[00:18:25] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yeah. As long as you either, there's two models. As long as you're either getting the footfall [00:18:30] in and it's increasing your compliance and your footfall, or you decide to go and raise the price and add a bonus of, whatever you feel is worth your time because most K-Laser treatments are taking you about 15 minutes.

[00:18:44] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So if that's taking you 15 minutes away from doing your physio, you need to value and charge for that time appropriately. Sure. So your clients are the length and breadth of this client country. Not surprisingly they're a socioeconomic differences in regards to what they feel that they can charge depending [00:19:00] on where they are and depending on what they are in regards of a physio, new physio, sports therapist, osteo all will be charging slightly differently.

[00:19:08] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So I tell them to. What do you charge an hour of your time? What do you value that? And then divide it into a quarter, and that's really what you'll be charging for a session. It's. Existing hour treatment or out with it. Because a lot of the times we, because of the compliance things, we're often getting clients coming back for follow on treatments of kla where they may not get the [00:19:30] full massage therapy or then the full physiotherapy.

[00:19:33] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So once a week they may be having that, but twice a week that, including that initial session, they'll be having McKayla. 

[00:19:40] Katie Bell: And the clinics that you've seen make this work have they put this as a package so you're not just buying a one off session. 'cause we know that's not going to be effective.

[00:19:48] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yeah, very much katie. Often to get them through the door and to get them to choose it, they might want to go and do some enticement. So in our practice, we do, rightly or wrongly, we're a new practice here. So [00:20:00] we said that we do a 50% discount on that first one. So that, because they're like, really?

[00:20:04] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Are you sure we need to do this? It's just really going to make a difference. And just to get them to feel the difference, sometimes you need to do something like that. Sure. But thereafter, we do packages you, of four sessions or eight sessions and they and there's a slight discount when they buy them up front and do a bundle discount.

[00:20:22] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But I can't, I might have. In a year, two patients who didn't buy the bundle afterwards having had one session. [00:20:30] After that one thing, obviously if it's an acute injury or they really don't feel they could spend too much in one go, then you can book them for four sessions. But most people with a chronic problem often sign up for eight sessions.

[00:20:41] Dr. Stephen Barabas: I had one lady who bought 24 sessions for her and her girlfriend and so the two of them come along and they have regular sessions. Just to maintain their bodies in a status quo along with massage therapy. 

[00:20:54] Katie Bell: Wow. So there's so many ways that you can use it alongside what you are already doing within your clinic.

[00:20:59] Katie Bell: You can [00:21:00] we talk about packages and ensuring that you're focusing on what the client needs to get the outcome that they're. They're looking for rather than your money mindset being the thing that gets in the way with charging and pricing. Absolutely. How you found that actually having a hook to get people in can help.

[00:21:17] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Billboard, the billboards and advertising help as well. The, it's interestingly in Europe I know we're talking K-Laser, but Indiba is a very big brand. Yeah. And so just by advertising Indiba, we [00:21:30] get a massive amount of Italians and Spanish and and French coming in because they know the brand.

[00:21:35] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So that's quite interesting in its own right. 

[00:21:37] Katie Bell: Yeah. 

[00:21:38] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Klaser your audience, if they have horses, will know K-Laser. If they have dogs like you just talked about, they'll know K-Laser because most top clinics will have it. We have every single university in the country using it. So it's a very big product in that thing.

[00:21:53] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Increasingly the NHS, some of the guys in Thomas', the North Tees other Kingstons, these hospitals are [00:22:00] using it for rehabilitation or in some cases they're using it for diabetic wounds to heal diabetic wounds. So the podiatry side of it can be very useful. Or venous ulcers and things like that.

[00:22:09] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So it's quite broad spectrum. Each of the areas requires specialist training, so we can train them on site. And we usually do a trial but we also have the academy here where they can get really good level of training per targeted, whether they're a podiatrist, a sports therapist, physio, osteo, chiro.

[00:22:27] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So it can, we can target that accordingly. [00:22:30] So it's their language and their clients that we're talking about and using the protocols specifically to help them along that journey. We didn't spoke about profitability, but by far the most profitable is podiatry because that high energy head means that you can start treating verucas oncomycosis and ingrowing toenails, which is massive.

[00:22:49] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And so one piece of equipment allows you to do all of those things. And we just published a paper from podiatrists in the Royal College of Podiatry on using the on, using the ingrown toenail [00:23:00] surgery. So that got published this year. A number of things like that. 

[00:23:04] Katie Bell: And am I right in thinking that is there a use for this in women's health?

[00:23:09] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yeah. And obviously from your own background, I know your clinic in Sheffield's very interested in that area. It wasn't something we set out to do. But we had a clinician in London who was already doing a little bit with Class three B lasers. And she was not getting the results. She quite wanted, but not bad.

[00:23:28] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yeah. And then [00:23:30] we convinced her to take the K-Laser and now on Harley Street, she's now been taken over by a regenerative medicine company. So they combine regenerative medicine for. Women's health and the hormonal treatment along with K-Laser, and they've seen a phenomenal increase in egg production.

[00:23:49] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But they've also gone and seen things in regards of, unfortunately, after cesarean sections and things are scarring and pudendal pain and things like that. And so there's also used for that [00:24:00] area as well. So it's used for boosting egg production and getting the fallopian tubes and everything working, but also used on an anti-inflammatory and an analgesic effect for for some men, but predominantly women.

[00:24:11] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yeah. Who have pudenal pain and pelvic pain. And the fact that we can penetrate down there and do it in a beautifully noninvasive way 

[00:24:18] Katie Bell: Yeah. 

[00:24:19] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Means that it's it makes, and some people, some people we've dealt with. I'm afraid to say they've been raped, and so the scars internally and externally are very big for those individuals [00:24:30] and anyone touching the pelvis area.

[00:24:32] Dr. Stephen Barabas: It's a very delicate point of area. To have something which is noninvasive and can work with those individuals it means automatically they're a lot more comfortable. And, we may not be able to get rid of the psychological aspects, but we can help internally and improve their quality of life.

[00:24:50] Katie Bell: It's phenomenal what it can do, isn't it? 

[00:24:52] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yeah, that I have to admit that the big area is for us has been musculoskeletal and pain management. And the earlier you use that, the [00:25:00] better. But the area of females health is something that we are very interested in. We published a letter paper with this lady and showed the increase in egg production of people who'd had years of hormonal without being able to go and get a baby to full term.

[00:25:13] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So that was great in itself. And I think some of the internal scarring aspects is really interesting as well. Because I think a third of the women in this country have cesarean sections now. And therefore there is inevitably the moment you cut, you create scarring. Yeah. [00:25:30] One of the areas which we haven't gone into, which I'm interested in the future, is obviously a lot of the gut problems that people get because if you have IBD or IBS, you do get the scarring as well.

[00:25:40] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And and I'll be interested to see in the future if we did research on that, whether we can reduce some of that and improve some of the motility and pain that's associated with those. But we haven't gone into that scientifically at all.

[00:25:51] Katie Bell: And people. We've got loads of clinicians. We've got a big cohort of women's health, pelvic health physios that listen to this.

[00:25:58] Katie Bell: We've got PO that listen to this. [00:26:00] One of the things that, and we share, we hosted, co-hosted a webinar together, didn't we? About the return on investment and how you would from a business point of view plan for investing in a machine like this and ensure that you get your return and all the things that you need to 

[00:26:14] Katie Bell: What would be somebody's first step? So we are all, many of us listening to this podcast are visionaries, we're shiny objects syndrome people. We are instantly at, the foot and ankle show or the therapy expo wanting to buy. What do you think should be [00:26:30] somebody's first step if they are really interested in bringing something like this, a medical device into their business?

[00:26:35] Dr. Stephen Barabas: I mean that you'll have the whole spectrum. Admittedly, your group within the Thrive are that sort of peak of individuals who are fascinated about doing their medical, manual therapy, careers and business, which is, which used to be a dirty word in the UK, but shouldn't be because all of us are.

[00:26:56] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Actually our taxes paying for this country are small businesses. We're doing a [00:27:00] great job. So we should be really proud, one of what we're doing medically, and two, what we're doing financially. Yeah. And those should be working in unison, not in isolation. From a person going into this we often go, oh my God, that's the price of a car.

[00:27:14] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And they're right. It is, but a car devalues, we're only going to bring value to you. So from day one. Our product is going to bring more money. It'll bring more footfall and it will, more importantly, it will give, [00:27:30] you can't all be the leaders of a pack. Okay. But it will empower some of your staff, and especially you mentioned some of the younger members coming in from the profession who are maybe, dare I say, a little bit more open-minded and more eager to try new things.

[00:27:45] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And I think more and more training now is looking at first opinion papers. So they're wanting the science to prove that it works, but they also want to do things which can improve what they can give to a client. But and especially if you're, for instance, if you're a new [00:28:00] practice, you've started up, it's a pretty scary world.

[00:28:02] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Hats off for you for starting up a clinic. But when you start up, first of all, you do need some differentiation as well. And actually that clinic that you are setting up down the road is established and they've got a great relationship with clients. So why are you different? What are you doing to go and improve the quality of the health of your clients?

[00:28:19] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So investing in a piece of equipment, like K-Laser differentiates you. It gives you something the clients are going to walk away with and talk about. And it improves your quality of [00:28:30] healing and the, and what you're able to provide. So all of those things is good business, but good science. Yeah. In regards to what you're trying to do for your patients.

[00:28:37] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And more importantly, and this is where I think the universities are rubbish at doing and things, so this is why you are thrived does such a great job. We still not taught in universities at any medical level on, on, on economics. How does, how do I get paid? And who pays taxes for me.

[00:28:54] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yeah. And what does that consult cost mean in regards of what's [00:29:00] going on in regards to the whole business? I want, I want to be paid 30,000 a year, whatever you want to be paid, but how does that translate from the person walking through the door and all those things are important. And and so what a K-Laser can do through which we were never taught about is through lease options and through hire purchase.

[00:29:17] Dr. Stephen Barabas: You can buy a piece of top equipment that really helps you, and actually it doesn't cost the world. It's spread over like a mortgage or a lease for a car over a number of years. And then you even forget about the payment [00:29:30] because actually you are charging appropriately. You are getting new customers through the door.

[00:29:34] Dr. Stephen Barabas: You are, you're increasing your clinical options and on all things. Those are a positive benefit for your clinic and your patients and for your balance sheet. So yeah. 

[00:29:44] Katie Bell: So it's a win-win. What excites you most about the future of laser therapy in the health and wellness market? And what's happening and what's changing?

[00:29:53] Dr. Stephen Barabas: I don't think it's just laser. I just think. I think people are getting more grown up in, in health in [00:30:00] general, and I think our clients are driving that as well. I think the general public is so much more aware of health and not happy for second standards. And so I think that's being driven from the bottom up as well as from us what we're being taught.

[00:30:13] Dr. Stephen Barabas: I'm still disappointed at universities how. They do not seem to be talking about really good equipment, in this day and age. It's a, it's an anathema to me that they should be talking about. It should be happening now. Yeah. They should be coming to us, not us begging to go and [00:30:30] come to them.

[00:30:31] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And so the next generation should already be functional. I employed a level seven sports therapist. He wasn't given any training about this, and after working with me for a year, he decided to do his final dissertation on K-Laser because he couldn't believe, that's how much they should be talking about it.

[00:30:48] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yes. And yeah. I just think for the generations coming forward. This multimodal use of things. It's not taking away good drugs. There are amazing drugs out there, but none of us want to be [00:31:00] on the highest drug or adding in more and more painkillers to get better. Good therapist with good understanding of knowledge and good idea, all of that side of thing's important.

[00:31:09] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And it's combining all of this because the beauty about from your background as a physiotherapist or an osteopath or sports therapist, is you actually spend a long time with a client.

[00:31:19] Katie Bell: Yeah. 

[00:31:19] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And if and you have to be a good social person to be able to be a good clinician to be able to do that.

[00:31:25] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But that means a lot of time talking about it. And a lot of time it's not just talking about what you can do. [00:31:30] It's, you know what maybe we need to send you off to go and get good diagnostics because, we've done four sessions and it's combining all of this in an ecosystem where the center of it is our patients.

[00:31:41] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But out of that we should get a lot more satisfaction. 'cause there's nothing better than getting a patient better. Yeah. And improving their quality of life because they may be the dependent person for the family and they're all dependent on them. So them not working and them not being able to do things has a knock on effect on all the people we see.

[00:31:57] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Or just the fact that, just because you've got [00:32:00] osteoarthritis doesn't mean that's you not able to walk for the rest of your life. You should be as independent as possible for as long as you possibly can. So that's important as well.

[00:32:08] Katie Bell: Absolutely. And with what we are seeing happen in the NHS and the drive towards more people being treated in the private community, this 

[00:32:17] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Sure, there's 

[00:32:17] Katie Bell: no better time.

[00:32:19] Dr. Stephen Barabas: My family are n hs. There's never enough money. We just watched the budget and it's eye watering amounts of money that's being spent on it. It dwarfs social [00:32:30]security and NHS budget dwarfs any other department several times over. And I don't see us quick. I don't see an option. We've seen, and sadly, you and I have been around long enough to see many governments now, and I don't see a change.

[00:32:43] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Don't see how that's going to, how you can fix that. For those of us who are are fortunate enough to have private healthcare, fantastic. But even then, there's waiting lists on that now. I see private healthcare as being an integral part of our nation's health. Yes. And the fact that private [00:33:00] healthcare.

[00:33:00] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Physios, osteos sports therapists, podiatrists spend so long with their clients means that there is a lot of dialogue and talking not just about what we're doing there, but about their whole health as well. Yeah. And you hear about their family as well and everything. So it's, you can't be a good clinician without doing that because you need to find all of that.

[00:33:18] Dr. Stephen Barabas: But also being. Being able, what I like about my veterinary profession is we've got a great relation with the referral business and the non-referral and be, we can't all have x-rays and MRIs and all these other great tools, but [00:33:30] we should have the access to be able to send someone to it when we put our hands up and go, you know what?

[00:33:35] Dr. Stephen Barabas: There's something else going on here, and I think you need to go, we need to understand what's going on before we start doing all the treatment. Yeah. And I think that's quite a big skillset that we need to be able to do, treat things properly. 

[00:33:48] Katie Bell: So if. If people want to continue this conversation, and they are, they might have been thinking about bringing in a medical device or medical technology into their clinics.

[00:33:57] Katie Bell: They have maybe met you at an [00:34:00] exhibition. I know I, I met your colleague Antonella at the Foot and Ankle shift. Yeah. Or they've been to Therapy Expo, they've had some kind of, they've started to have these thoughts about what's next and. Hopefully if they've been listening to this podcast, they're thinking about how they plan for it, how they budget for it what does that business plan look like?

[00:34:19] Katie Bell: How do they continue this conversation with you, Stephen?

[00:34:22] Dr. Stephen Barabas: My company is called VBS Medical. So you can find it, vbs medical.com or a K-Laser UK dot co UK. So those are the [00:34:30] two websites that are platforms? Yeah. I have a great team. I they try and keep me away from them these days.

[00:34:36] Dr. Stephen Barabas: I used to be I used to be on the field all the time, but I do less and less of that. And. I decided from the beginning that I didn't want a team where one person comes in and tries to sell you. One person comes in and tries to train you. One person does the installation. So my team is judged on the whole process.

[00:34:54] Dr. Stephen Barabas: So they're there from the beginning. And the reason we sell again and again to existing clients is [00:35:00] because of that enduring relationship that we have. Brought them new money. We have brought them new skill sets and new ways to held, but that continuity in the salesperson is really important.

[00:35:10] Katie Bell: Yes. 

[00:35:11] Dr. Stephen Barabas: It's not just about having good equipment, it's about making sure that we're a good partner as well. And so that, whether it's Derek on the South, on Natasha, or we've just taken on a new guy who's an ex Everton, physio podiatrist Everton fc. You are followed through that whole process and yes, I might get involved or yes, Antonella [00:35:30] our trainer might get involved, but your point of contact is that sales person so that they can take you through it and you'll, you might have new staff or you might expand a new thing, but you want to have that person to be able to take you through that and get you that equipment and make sure that if there is a problem or something is not quite a right.

[00:35:49] Dr. Stephen Barabas: You you can turn to someone straight away and have that backup. Yeah. And that's important. We're not a huge team. But we're a, an experienced, and most of us have worked with this for [00:36:00] multiple multiples years. 

[00:36:01] Katie Bell: Yeah. And that's what really struck me when I first met Antonella, was that level of experience that you'd all got and level of knowledge.

[00:36:09] Katie Bell: And it was, and passion. It was. And passion. That was, it was all about that, that came over to me more than anything. It wasn't a sales. Thing it was all about. We just really want to show you how great this machine is. 

[00:36:23] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Yeah. No we, nothing gets us more happy than when someone sends us a case study.

[00:36:29] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And we're like, [00:36:30] oh my God, that's so good. And we, we shouldn't be surprised but it's so good when you have a story like a and you're like, and sometimes, we, I mean we talked about how diver, I think you need to concentrate on a few things and do it well.

[00:36:42] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Absolutely. And you're right. As you get along, it gets wider and wider, the remit and things of what you could do. Or, in your clinic you have female health and physio and MSK and it's all those things. But those things that we get back and we have WhatsApp groups which are all the clinicians of podiatry and all the clinicians [00:37:00] of aesthetics for instance, or all the clinicians working in MSK and some of the things on there are great, and it's not just us giving ideas.

[00:37:07] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Now, it's other people who sometimes might have done more in that area. For instance, up in Lancashire, there's a place called the Sanctuary of Healing that treats MS. Patients. They have a number of our K-Lasers and it's become a fundamental thing in rewiring some of those patients and getting their musculoskeletal systems working a lot better.

[00:37:29] Dr. Stephen Barabas: Wow. And so [00:37:30] you're reading some of these things and you, and I'm in awe of listening to some of these stories and so it's really nice getting that two-way interaction. And we learn stuff every single day, even though I've done it for 15 years. And I think that's how. We should be in life. I think we get bored in life if we aren't learning things every day.

[00:37:47] Katie Bell: Absolutely. Yeah. And this is such a fascinating conversation. I could continue it for ages. We are going to make sure that the. Websites and ways of contacting you and your team, or your team are on the show [00:38:00] notes. So if you are listening to this head to the show notes and all those will be listed there.

[00:38:04] Katie Bell: And I know I don't know if it's you, Dr. Stephen, but you are going to be at some of our Thrive events coming up 

[00:38:09] Dr. Stephen Barabas: in October. 

[00:38:10] Katie Bell: In October. Members can come and talk to you. Yeah. Very excited about be prepared for it to be very loud and very energetic. I don't think you're quite ready for it. 

[00:38:23] Dr. Stephen Barabas: nah Katie. I'd expect nothing less 

[00:38:25] Katie Bell: and sequins. There's always some sequins going on you don't have to wear. 

[00:38:29] Dr. Stephen Barabas: I'm not sure [00:38:30] I'll be in sequins, but I'll 

[00:38:32] Katie Bell: be my mission. Yeah. Dr. Stephen, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Up your time. 

[00:38:38] Dr. Stephen Barabas: No, I appreciate that and that was a lovely little conversation, so thank you.

[00:38:41] Dr. Stephen Barabas: And thanks for the audience for listening to this.