What if everything you thought you knew about wealth and prosperity was turned upside down? Meet John Rinehart, a passionate speaker and author, who embarked on a unique journey from the business world to seminary, shaping his perspective on the purpose of wealth. Together with his wife, Renee, the duo runs the Gospel Patrons ministry, illuminating the importance of generosity in history and in spreading the gospel. John’s story and work serve as an invitation for us to rethink societal norms and discover our unique purpose in life.
During our conversation, we explored the paradoxical relationship between success, wealth, and spiritual health — a topic often brushed under the rug. Together with John, we unveiled the danger of anchoring our identity and security to material possessions, a stark contrast to the teachings of Jesus.
In a world that thrives on accumulation, we tackled the challenges of embracing radical generosity. And to top it off, we gave a sneak peek into John's forthcoming book "31 Gospel Patrons," a collection of enlightening interviews with business leaders discussing faith and generosity. Get ready to be inspired on this journey towards a deeper understanding of generosity, identity, and your relationship with God.
What if everything you thought you knew about wealth and prosperity was turned upside down? Meet John Rinehart, a passionate speaker and author, who embarked on a unique journey from the business world to seminary, shaping his perspective on the purpose of wealth. Together with his wife, Renee, the duo runs the Gospel Patrons ministry, illuminating the importance of generosity in history and in spreading the gospel. John’s story and work serve as an invitation for us to rethink societal norms and discover our unique purpose in life.
During our conversation, we explored the paradoxical relationship between success, wealth, and spiritual health — a topic often brushed under the rug. Together with John, we unveiled the danger of anchoring our identity and security to material possessions, a stark contrast to the teachings of Jesus.
In a world that thrives on accumulation, we tackled the challenges of embracing radical generosity. And to top it off, we gave a sneak peek into John's forthcoming book "31 Gospel Patrons," a collection of enlightening interviews with business leaders discussing faith and generosity. Get ready to be inspired on this journey towards a deeper understanding of generosity, identity, and your relationship with God.
I'm Courtney Markley, and this is the Heart of Money. Talking about money can be really hard and uncomfortable, but it doesn't need to be. The problem is, we're taught to think about money in terms that are too much like science, with rules and regulations, and not enough like psychology, with emotions and nuance. Join me on my mission to change the way we talk about money, one conversation at a time. Welcome everyone to the Heart of Money podcast. I'm your host, courtney Markley, and at the time we're filming, we're coming up on Christmas time and I can't think of what a better gift to give my audience than with a chance to hear from John Reinhart. Welcome, john.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you're here and just to give people a quick preview if they have possibly never heard of who John Reinhart is, first of all you need to know. Let me just give you a quick rundown of John and then I'm gonna let you fill in the gaps because I'm given more like the elevator pitch version. So, john, you started in the business world, yes, then transitioned into seminary and then, along the way, you wrote the book Gospel Patrons, which is one of my all-time favorite books, and if you haven't read it, I encourage you to go out and get it. It's a very easy read, if you will.
Speaker 1:In terms of it just really like pulls you in and shows you these amazing stories and highlights people all throughout history whose generosity literally changed the world and changed the course of Christianity, and it's really exciting to read and also feel like you're a part of, which is really really cool. So you are a author, you're a speaker, you travel the world with your wife and your family, you run the Gospel patron ministry and you just have this amazing gift where you get to go home alongside people and remind them of who they are in Christ and the amazing calling that he has for them and their life and their money. And how did I do, john? Was that pretty good? Is it a good synopsis if you'd say it's amazing.
Speaker 2:I'd like to meet that guy.
Speaker 1:All right, perfect. Yeah, no, it's you. It's amazing. It's amazing to see the work that God is doing through you and through your life and your family's lives and your ministry. And so if you could share with us a little bit about what is your heart and your wife, renee I know she's also on your team. I saw her title as a VP of Fun and I'm very jealous. I would love that title. So I need to chat with her later of, like, how do you become a VP of Fun? Like that sounds like something I need lessons in. But share with me a little bit about your heart and Renee's heart, your family's heart, behind what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for asking. And the backstory is I mean, whenever you meet someone or you hear someone's bio, it looks like everything was easy and they just sort of get this life. That is wonderful and it's been so much risk and so much faith and so much hanging in there through challenge and struggle and believing when things looked impossible and stepping into unknown places and trying things you've never done before and continuing to risk again and risk again and risk again. And that's really the journey of almost any entrepreneur and I didn't really realize that I either had the entrepreneurial gift or the entrepreneurial calling. It was just more directed toward ministry than in business, but the journey's been very similar to that.
Speaker 2:I started my career in business and was really wrestling at the age of 25 with what's the purpose of wealth, what's the role of business and professional people within God's kingdom and how do I not be on God's B team or his JV team? But I wanna be engaged in what he's doing around the world and it seemed like, as a business person, that just wasn't an option and I didn't like that idea. I knew I was put on planet Earth for a purpose, that God designed me, for good works that he wanted me to do and I was succeeding in business and doing all the right things in business, but it felt like there was something missing and something lacking. I wanted to be more deeply engaged with what God was doing around the world, and that sent me on a journey of leaving business, going to seminary to be more grounded in God's word and get to know the Bible better and the God of the Bible better. But then wrestling with okay, then, what's my calling? Why have I been made?
Speaker 2:And I just wanna say I believe God makes us for specific purposes. He's a great designer and every one he designs he's got plans and purposes that are good for that person. And most of us, instead of wrestling and stepping out and risking and searching for why he's made us and what he's called us to do, we settle for things that we haven't been made for. We trade our calling or cash, or we trade it for security, or we trade it for a corporate track or a job. That's just sort of what you're supposed to do, or even trade it for the American dream of I guess I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I got the house, I got the car, I got the job, I've got the trajectory in my life and I didn't want that track. I wanted something more and something different, and so God really sent us on an adventure and a journey which sounds awesome on the other side of it. In the middle of it. It's challenging and stretching in a thousand different ways, but it led us to this idea of gospel patrons.
Speaker 2:The big idea of gospel patrons is that behind every great movement of God in history, there are those who are gonna proclaim the gospel, preach the word of God, carry Jesus to people who've never heard him and never known him before.
Speaker 2:But those people aren't lone rangers that they've been funded, partnered with and supported by these behind the scenes, often generosity leaders we call gospel patrons, and when I first heard about the role that God had for business and professional people at the real strategic center of great movements of God in history, I was like how come I've never heard this before?
Speaker 2:How come, when I was 25, wrestling with these things in business, no one shared this with me? I wish that I had had this vision. If I did, I probably wouldn't have left business. I would have seen the glorious and strategic role that I had. But instead God made me the carrier of that message so that I can share it primarily with other business and professional people that God has a plan and a place for each of us. And that doesn't mean we all have to leave our jobs and go to seminary or take a job working for a church or a ministry, but we can use the gifts, the influence, the resource, even the success that he gives us not just to build our lifestyle but to build his kingdom.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that so much and I love this piece of the story. I don't think I was aware of this part of your story of you essentially started creating and sharing with people the exact stories that you wish you had had when you were younger and maybe struggling in this part of your faith of what is my purpose and where am I supposed to be. And I guess all Christians have to be pastors or missionaries or preschool teachers or something in order to do good, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a myth, that I don't know why or kind of how that gets perpetuated, but I just don't believe that over the last 14 years, I've met so many incredible believing business leaders, entrepreneurs, financial advisors, you name it. No one in the world could convince me that to be a business person is to be a second-class Christian. It's just not how it has to be. There's too many people doing incredible good through their business, with their wealth, through their success, with their platform, with their influence for the glory of God that I'm fully, fully convinced that God has designed us, like it says in 1 Corinthians 12, as unique parts of the body. He didn't create us all to be the same part of the body by design, so that together, when we work together, this whole thing really works and he moves in power when we operate in our unique gifting and the unique ways he's called us. Rather than envying someone else as part of the body and thinking, you ought to be that part. No, he designed you, and so seek the designer as to the purpose for his design.
Speaker 1:I love what you just said seek the designer for the purpose of his design. And how often we get that confused, right Cause I can easily look at this person or that person and say like they're doing so much more than I am. We're there, you know. They're so gifted in this area. Why can't I be like that? And then we just compare ourselves to other people versus really just going to our father?
Speaker 2:Yeah, he didn't make a mistake on you or me, and even our limitations. You know, I can do some things that you maybe can't do, and you can do a lot of things I can't do, but we're stronger together and that's how he made us to be, and I think for many years I looked up to heroes of the faith, whether they're preachers or missionaries, and I just thought, oh wow, they have something I don't, rather than saying, wait, god's made me unique too, and I don't have to be them. I have to be me. That's my calling is to be me for his glory.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, that's exactly it.
Speaker 1:And so, john, you spend actually quite a bit of time.
Speaker 1:This is something that I really appreciate about you we were just talking about this before we started but you spend a lot of time talking to business leaders and people who have built wealth for themselves, and you talk about the dangers of success and the dangers of wealth. And tell me what your experience has been like approaching those subjects with people, because it's not something that we talk about very often. Right? This is very anti-American dream, right here, yes, where we're all focused on chasing money, chasing the next house or the next promotion or raise or whatever it is, but no one's really slowing us down to say, wait, what's happening to our soul as we're accomplishing these things, or as we're acquiring more of these things, what's that actually doing to our spiritual health? And so you're stepping into the room and you're sharing these things. I think you do it in a really tactful and gracious way, but just tell us what your experience has been like, stepping into the room and saying, well, I'm gonna give a message. That's very counter-cultural.
Speaker 2:Well, I so appreciate, courtney, that you get a chance to do that in your podcast and you do that in your counseling conversations with people, because, like you said, it's a conversation we don't have very much. There's a line that Jesus said, and I think it's in the gospel of Luke, where he says you know, be careful that life does not consist in the abundance of possessions. Life does not consist in the abundance of possessions and basically in America, we just flat out don't believe that. Here's the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords telling us where life is not found and we go no, no, no, no Sorry, jesus, you might have misspoken there. We think life is found in more things, in more possessions, in more trips, in more experiences, in more luxuries, in more brand new, bigger, faster. However, you fill in the blank there and Jesus so clearly says that's not where life is found. And so when I get a chance to speak to people about, specifically about the dangers of wealth, I don't see that I'm bringing something negative or even challenging, necessarily. I mean, I know it's challenging at times, but I see it more as an opportunity to bring life. That's true life, that's like really satisfying life. I'm not taking something away from someone, I'm offering them something even better.
Speaker 2:And in 1 Timothy we find a really challenging verse. 1 Timothy, chapter 6, it says command those who are rich. Paul is writing to Timothy, his younger understudy, his disciple, and the Lord command those who are rich. First of all, I'm going to finish that sentence in just a second here. But first of all I don't see that anywhere else in the New Testament where command those who care for orphans. Command those who lead worship. Command those who preach the gospel. Command those who cross cultures, learn languages and serve as missionaries. Command those who do wheelchair ministry. Command those who are hospitable, hospitality ministry. It's a really strong word. It doesn't say suggest, it doesn't say advise, it doesn't even say counsel, it says command.
Speaker 2:Paul says command those who are rich, not to set their hope on riches which are so uncertain. Don't set your hope on something uncertain, but instead to be rich in good works, generous, ready to share, thus storing up for yourselves a true foundation for the life that's truly life. What Paul is telling Timothy was serving an emphasis in a very rich and wealthy context and he's saying help people find true life rather than base their hope and their confidence on things that are uncertain, and the way you're going to help them find true life is they have to unlock their grip around wealth as their security or identity or status or purpose and instead learn to be radically generous, rich in good works, generous and ready to share, eager, proactive, looking for opportunities to engage with people, to bless. When you do that, that's life abundant. That's what we're made for and everything within our flesh, everything within the world and the temptations, literally of the devil are to grasp. It's crazy to me to think I'm sorry, I'm preaching to you a little bit now that's what I think.
Speaker 1:No, I love it. I'm here for it. We're all here for a job.
Speaker 2:Keep going, it's crazy to me to think that Judas traded Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. The Son of God is walking the earth and Judas would have been witness to the miracles, the parables, the incredible healing stories casting out demons, the Sermon on the Mount, all of it. He sees it firsthand, knows the power of God, the wisdom of God. There's no one who's ever spoken like this man from Nazareth. And yet, at the end of the day, when Satan enters his heart, what does he trade Jesus for? It's not a brothel full of women, it's not, I don't know, it's not even a position of power. It's 30 pieces of silver, 30 silver coins. It's money, and Judas in some way saw that as worth it. It's remarkable to me that the great temptation in each of our hearts is to trade the Creator for created things, to leave worshiping the God who made everything, to worship everything that he made. And this has always been the temptation to make idols out of stone or gold or silver or whatever it is. And oftentimes in America we don't make idols out of these statues, literally, that we bow down to, but we order our lives around created things rather than ordering our lives around the Creator and His kingdom. And I just love to say to people that's not where life is found. That leads to emptiness, that leads to a lostness, that leads to a loneliness. And people who've made it, I'm telling you, I promise you, they know that as well. They know I'm speaking the truth.
Speaker 2:I got a phone call a few months back from a new friend of mine who really succeeded in business in his late 30s, sold his business, cashed out, never needed to work another day in his life. And he called me and said John, I'm looking for purpose. He was. I don't know what to do. I have my dream house. I've got my ranch. I never need to work another day in my life again. I've got a good family. Ferrari is a Ferrari for a month and then it's a car. What am I doing? What am I made for? What's my purpose?
Speaker 2:I'm telling you, we chase a dream and there's an emptiness at the end and our culture then lies to us and says well, maybe just more, maybe you just need more. Then you didn't have enough vacations, enough experiences, your car didn't go fast enough, your boat wasn't long enough, your trip didn't last long enough. You need to see more and do more. And that's not God. That's the flesh, our flesh is never satisfied, and so whenever we hear that word more, just one more bite, one more time, one more wife, one more, whenever you hear, that that's the flesh and it will never, ever be satisfied.
Speaker 2:But Jesus says something different way, different than the American dream. He says deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me, and he's leading us toward abundant life. The life that's truly life, it's found not in having, it's found in giving. It's found not in trying to satisfy our flesh. It's actually found in denying ourselves and learning to give our lives away to be a blessing to others.
Speaker 2:It's a radical, spiritual, supernatural shift that needs to happen in our hearts to become the kind of people that live not to get but to give, live not to be blessed but to bless others. And it flows out of this amazing story of a Savior who did that for us. We're not doing this as some work to try to please God. We see a 33-year-old man, son of man and the son of God, hanging on a cross, giving his life away, body and blood and breath and all of it, so that we can find the life that's truly life. We can have forgiveness of sins, eternal life and abundant life through knowing him, trusting him and learning to live as he says. So really long answer to your question. But it is an unusual, unorthodox, countercultural message. But it's not something new. It's right there in scripture all along. This is what discipleship to Jesus actually looks like, and it has to involve our relationship with money.
Speaker 1:It has to involve our relationship with money, doesn't it? Which means we have to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Yes, we have to talk about it, and it's one thing that in our culture we put a guard against talking about, and I think what we don't talk about in secret, it grows, and we don't gain freedom when we don't talk about it. Freedom comes through conversation. You're taking new steps of faith and growing this way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I love this and I want to unpack. You made a lot of really great points. I want to unpack a couple of them while I have you. You know the first thing, talking about Judas and how he traded Jesus essentially for the 30 coins, right. And you know me, I'm listening to that. I'm like how dare he right? Like what a greedy, what a greedy jerk, right. That's what I'm thinking in my head and probably all of our listeners too. But then I think about you know, haven't I done that before?
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Like, haven't I done that in my own life? And for listeners, I want to make this a bit more like visible, right, because it can feel so concrete, like absolutely not, I would not trade my relationship with Jesus for 30 coins. Well, we do it for a lot more, actually, or a lot less. And I'm thinking of, you know, years ago, before I started becoming a financial counselor, I was a fashion designer. So very different, you know did a bit of a 180 there and I'll never forget this moment.
Speaker 1:I was reading a devotional and that week happened to be about money and at that point, you know, my relationship with money had started to grow in a healthier, like biblical sense, right, like I was starting to look at it more as like God's money versus my money, but it's still. You know, I was kind of in the middle and the question in the Bible study at the end was if you made all of your decisions based on your obedience to God and not based on the financial ramifications, what would your life look like right now? And that stopped me in my tracks because I was like whoa, have I been actually making all of my decisions based on money and not on obedience to God? Like holy smokes and that really like captured my attention to say like I've been twisting this all up and I've gotten this so wrong right.
Speaker 2:There's these opportunities that we have all the time to be people who follow Jesus with our money or to follow money instead. It just happened the grocery store the other day for my son and I, where lady was ringing up our groceries and she didn't charge us for the zucchini, and my son pointed that to me and I said, oh, maybe you know. We checked the receipt after she charged us and no, she didn't charge us for the zucchini. Like I could see that as, oh sweet, I saved $3 or $4 or whatever it was right. Or I could see it as I'm a person of integrity who follows a king who's my provider. $4 doesn't get to determine that amount, which is, by God's grace, what we did.
Speaker 2:But there've been other times where I've compromised my integrity for a little tiny sum of money, less than 30 coins. And there was one scenario years ago where I had a mentor pass away and I was already flying somewhere and I needed to change my flights in order to be at his memorial service. And so I was on the phone with the airline and they asked you know, if this person who passed away was a family member, we can waive all of the change fees, but if not, you know it's X number of dollars per person in your family that have to. And in that moment my flesh justified it and lied to the attendant and said, yeah, he's family. He was kind of like family and he's in the family of God and the body of Christ.
Speaker 2:I mean so much justification, Right, right, and at the end of the day, for what? To save a couple hundred bucks. And I ended up getting to call that airline back and repent and make it right. But it's those kind of moments where you go, yeah, we're not that far away from the temptations of Judas.
Speaker 2:I mean whether it's lying on your taxes or doing something immoral to try to save a few bucks or treating people just with a stingy heart. We all can put, like you were saying, money at the center of our decision making rather than the King of Kings and Lord and the Lord. You had a client conversation to make sure about.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was thinking of a client conversation, and this was another one. You know that, just, really, it sticks with you. You know, I'm sure you've had conversation with folks throughout your work and they just kind of grab, hold and stick with you. And this was a gentleman who he was a middle manager at a government job and he was fine, you know, he was content with his career. But then, as we were talking more, he started to just question his career and say, you know, I don't actually think I'm doing the thing that God wanted me to do. You know, I don't think I'm where God called me to be. And so I just leaned in and said, okay, do you have an idea of what that is? And he said, yeah, actually I love doing homeless ministry, like one on one, meeting folks on the street. Like when I do that, I feel like I'm right, where God made me to be, right, like this was the thing that I was gifted to do, and what an amazing gift. Like not everyone goes around saying that that's their specific passion project. Right, because that's a really hard place to be. And you know his whole face was lining up, the CC was talking about this. So, like this is where it really made me to be, this is where I shine. You know, I just kind of fell into the workplace, worry mat, and I just asked you know what's stopping you, what's stopping you from just pursuing this and doing this full time? And again to your earlier points, it's not that we all have to work for nonprofits or, you know, become pastors or missionaries to do good work.
Speaker 1:But in his particular case, it was clear that he felt a calling to go serve those folks on a full time capacity. And he just said well, according, I couldn't provide the same lifestyle for my family if I work for a nonprofit. He wasn't concerned about them going homeless or anything like that. They had a very nice home, very nice cars, private schools, very good vacations. And he was worried. What would my family say if I said you know what kids? We're going to pull that back because dad's going to start following God's call. What's that going to look like?
Speaker 1:And in that moment it just killed me. It killed me because he was very easy to justify and this is all of us right, like I'm not judging this person because we've all done this. He was really quick to say like well, I have a good paying job, like I can donate money to this or that, but in that moment I'm like man, you're settling for second best, like you're not actually walking in obedience, which is then technically disobedience, right, and we're just trying to work out these other. You know, let me work out this other deal with God so that I don't get in trouble, right? That's kind of what it sounded like.
Speaker 2:Yes, Pay them off a little bit, a few dollars here, right there, and exactly, I didn't have to fully obey.
Speaker 1:You know so, for everyone listening, and myself included, like it's so easy to look at Judas and be like man, you greedy jerk, like I can't believe you would do that. And yet I think we all do this, you know, on a regular basis, where we just completely, you know, sell out our relationship with Christ for something so small. And it's just really sad to think about just that missed opportunity, those missed relationships. And you know, I have a friend who recently reminded me, you know, we have eternity to spend with God but we only have a short period on earth to live for him and do work for him. And how cool is that that we get to do those things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so he's just kind of putting it back into perspective. And I'm sure you've seen this too. But from the counseling perspective, you know, I get a really, you know, kind of magnifying view on people's lives. You know, like this is really what's going on behind the scenes. And to another point you made earlier you know we shove so many things in our lives that, you know, making time for God then feels like a burden, you know, and it's like, well, I don't really have time to read my Bible, I don't have time to serve, I don't have time to go to church because I have all of these other things on my plate. Like there's just really no time and it feels like we've just got it backwards, you know, and, like I said, the life that's true life is putting it on first and then let your career and your lifestyle and, you know, all of these other things kind of fall into place around that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what I found interesting, not in professional counseling settings, but even in the lives of children, friends, kids, kids that I meet. You know I travel a lot. There's a lot of children who are already they've already committed themselves to the idea of loving money.
Speaker 2:A lot of the issues that we face, even as adults, go back to commitments, maybe even agreements, that we made back when we were little kids. I mean, I forget this story with one of our friends' daughters. She was four years old and we were there and she was talking with her mommy and her and her mommy had birthdays that were about a week apart, and they said you know well, maybe we could celebrate them together. And she said no, no, no, mommy, I don't want to, I want to celebrate mine first. And then she said and then I hope I, mommy, I hope I die first and I go to heaven before you. And her mommy said oh well, why is that? Why would you want to go to heaven without your mommy? And she goes so that God will give me all of his gold. And so I said what do you want to do with all God's gold? And she said buy toys. She's four years old when her mother was already like I want stuff.
Speaker 1:I want the stuff yeah.
Speaker 2:A lot of us really don't grow out of that mentality. We just think it's more gold equals more toys. That will somehow equal more satisfaction. But it's. The formula is backwards.
Speaker 2:The satisfaction doesn't ever come from the toys. Those are a gift from a good father who loves us and wants us to enjoy our lives. But he's the one who satisfies us and his gifts are part of that. They bring us joy, they bring us happiness for a season. But the real joy and the real happiness comes from knowing the giver. It's not just what Santa brings down the chimney that makes us happy. It's like we know him. And knowing him is a journey. It's a journey for each of us to go on day after day after day after day. It's opening my Bible yet another day. It's offering a prayer of dependence and need to him. Another day it's seeing him answer prayer and come through, or looking at which relationships he orchestrates and brings into our lives to help us grow. But he's the true treasure. He's the true one that satisfies us. It's never God's gold and it's never his toys. Those are good gifts at best and distractions sometimes at worst.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious, john, as you started really leaning more into this. Right, you're learning more about gospel patrons. You're literally writing the book about them. I'm sure that there is some. I'm guessing that there is some natural tension, perhaps even within your own heart and your own life and saying, okay, like am I doing this? Is my family emulating these things? I'm really curious because what I have found to be true is, as you start guiding people through this generosity conversation and their hearts are compelled right and I say, yes, I want to experience this life, that's true life and I want to stop, you know, doing the things that I was doing before. There's this natural. I find tension in the undoing right.
Speaker 1:Where we got to look and say, okay, what am I currently doing and how is it serving me, Is it drawing me closer to Jesus? And I'm curious if you could share just a little bit of like what was that undoing? What did that look like for you and your family?
Speaker 2:So good. Well, I remember distinctly being invited to a fundraising event when I was probably 27. It wasn't really even a fundraiser. It was a celebration of a woman who had passed away, and they dedicated a building at our university in her honor and with her name because of a large donation that she left.
Speaker 2:And at that ceremony they were describing this I think she was a widow, but describing her life and how she lived incredibly modestly and then kind of saved most of her money and gave it all in the end and wanted to make a difference and wanted to store up treasure in heaven. And I literally remember thinking that is so dumb. She had so much wealth and she didn't use any of it. She just saved it so she could give it. That seems so backwards to me. I remember hearing about a well-known pastor who I had long admired and how he had only owned three pairs of shoes a black pair, a brown pair and a pair of running shoes. Well, I remember hearing about how his wife used to cut her own hair to save money and I again thought that's so ridiculous. Why would you do that? Just pay for the haircut, just get a nice pair of shoes or a new jacket if you need it. And yet I realized, even in those sort of comments and offence perhaps, that I took to sort of a radical wartime generosity lifestyle, that God was challenging some of my deeply held assumptions and beliefs that I didn't even know I had already agreed to. Now I look back years after those experiences and I recognize that leading this Gospel patrons ministry that God's called us to has been a gift and has been an incredible challenge. Because in order to have authenticity and even, I would say, spiritual power to teach on these things, that needs to flow from a place of my own obedience and my own authentic journey with Jesus to live this out to the best of my ability. And that's the challenge, because there's always pressure. The river and the current in our culture is running one direction. There's only one direction. It's running and it's the accumulation of more. And it's the American dream of having the house, the cars, the vacations, the trip. And that doesn't change even as you age. There's always a pull towards like wouldn't that be nice? Wouldn't that be satisfying? Isn't that where life is found? And it's a continual journey for the wife and I to come back to.
Speaker 2:Well, practically we're not saving any money for retirement. We had the joy of giving our money for retirement away several years ago and emptying our 401k for the sake of a ministry project that we felt called to. We felt like, why are we sitting on this money for 30 years from now when there are people around the world who don't know Jesus and haven't ever even heard his name. They don't even have the opportunity to have the eternal life that we get because have never even heard his name. And if we have money, that can do something about that. But we're saving it for 30 years from now. They are having an emergency of faith, a crisis of faith now, and so I'm not saying this is for everyone, but God led us to give that away and release that. He's led us to take some serious steps of faith, generosity, wives, and make some commitments that were well beyond what we ever thought was possible, and then, three years later, he helped us fulfill it, and then he called us out of the boat again to another step of faith even bigger than the one before, and so it's really helpful to have a godly wife. I'll say that it's helpful to have a wife who I'm not struggling to convince or persuade, if anything, she read Randy Alcorn's book the Law of Rewards. That's one of her favorite books.
Speaker 2:All about eternal rewards and how what we do with our wealth here actually does matter for eternity. That heaven is not a communist society where everyone gets the equal reward or an equal standard, issue robe and harp and cloud, but what we do with our life, what we do with our obedience here and now actually affects the kind and quality of rewards we'll experience in eternity that will last forever. That what we do now to store up treasure in heaven with our decisions here on earth will affect the amount of treasure that we have in heaven, and God's not unfair in doing that. Whoever sews bountifully will reap bountifully. Whoever sews sparingly will reap sparingly. We want a big harvest of righteousness when we get to heaven. We want lots of friends for eternity who have been impacted by our prayers, our life, our love and our generosity, and so we want to live in light of eternity, being real.
Speaker 2:We want to walk by faith and not by sight.
Speaker 2:But everything in the world, the flesh and the devil, pull us back to walking by sight. I need to see it in the bank in order to feel secure. Really. That's a false security, and so we've wrestled with the journey, I think, as husband and wife, of continuing to get out of the boat and put ourselves in positions of faith, put ourselves in positions of uncomfortable obedience, to learn to come the kind of people like Jesus who give our lives away. We don't seek to save our lives, we don't seek to build our lifestyle, we seek to give our lives away. Now, we're not perfect in that. I'm not saying we're the model and we've mastered that but it's the journey we're on and the trajectory we're heading towards is increasingly releasing things and releasing funds in order to give our lives away like our Savior, and we've collectively identified that's our bullseye. We want to live lives in light of eternity, like Jesus, for Jesus and with Jesus, and so that's where we want to head continually and that's helpful to be united about that with her.
Speaker 1:I love hearing what a husband and wife are really united in this front, right, Because it does take both of you. It really really does, and so that is like I'm so happy to hear that for you. That's incredible and I believe you're spot on and I think it was Randy Alcorn. I'm liking your wife more and more than.
Speaker 2:I'm allowed to share about her.
Speaker 1:This is how I get all of my friends, by the way. I meet their husbands through work and then I say can you connect me with your wife? She sounds like a great girl. But I believe it was Randy Alcorn who did say you know I'm paraphrasing, but essentially it was where we store our treasure largely has to do with where we believe our home is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, and so we were talking about identity earlier, before we got on the call. But if our identity is rooted in the things of this world and the things that are temporary, then where we put our money will be the things that are temporary. But if we put our identity right, if we look up to heaven right, we put our identity in the hands of our Heavenly Father, then where we put our money and our treasures will also go to heaven with our Father. So good.
Speaker 2:I think we're all tempted at that level of identity and if you have wealth, one of the strongest temptations is I'm a wealthy person, I am a successful person and therefore to adopt the lifestyle of radical and I'll even say sacrificial generosity that impacts what you can do and what you can't do, that maybe puts limits on some of the things that have felt unlimited in different seasons of life, feels like a threat to who you are Because you've had that pre-agreement that I'm a wealthy person. That's who I am and I think we need to say that's not a large enough identity to ground who you are. Nor is it the truest thing about you. The truest thing about you, if you're a follower of Jesus, if you've trusted him and given your life to him, is that you're a son or a daughter of the King at your core. You're an adopted child of God. You're a beloved son or daughter and you have a Father who says you're of more value than a few sparrows. You have a Father who says he sees the number of hairs upon your head. He knows the number of days that you're going to live. He knit you together in your mother's womb. You're fearfully and wonderfully made. He's got plans for you to give you a future and a hope. He's with you and promises to never leave you nor forsake you. He says I am with you always, to the very end of the age. So the truest thing about you is you're a beloved son or daughter who has a Father who will never leave you, never forsake you, and who grounds your identity in something that's never going to change. It's not grounded in what you do. It's not grounded in what you've earned. What you've accomplished or even achieved has grounded in God's great love for you that he's proven at the cross of his Son, jesus Christ. And when we see our identity is anchored there, we're free to take radical steps in our Father's name to join our Father's family business and go rescue others and share the good news of the love of God with them.
Speaker 2:But that identity question is so huge because you look back all the way to the Garden of Eden and you see that Satan tempted Adam and Eve. Do you want to be like God? Do you want an identity that's like oh, are you not satisfied with your own identity? Or when Satan tempts Jesus, he says if you are the Son of God, that's an identity question. Who are you Jesus.
Speaker 2:Jesus already knew he was the Son of God and Satan yet comes after him with an identity temptation. If you are successful, this is what you have to drive. If you are successful, this is what you have to wear. If you are beautiful, this is how you need to look in all the different services that you have to spend in order to look that way. If your identity is anchored in being a pastor, then you're a pastor all the time, everywhere you go, and you never can have a day off. There are identities in something so much better, deeper and stronger than those things, and that's a huge part of winning this battle to live a life of generosity is that question of identity.
Speaker 1:I love this question so much and to just further elaborate on exactly what you're saying, I often will challenge my clients to just answer the question of who are you? But you can't use titles, so you can't say I'm John, I'm an author or I'm a father or a husband, because you were you before any of those things ever happened. You were you before you were ever successful or wealthy or fill in the blank right. You've always been you. So who are you? And this is a question that most people don't take the space and the time to really sit down and pray about and say who did God make me to be?
Speaker 2:And what kind of answers do you hear when people share that? What things do they say?
Speaker 1:You know what is kind of the sad thing, John? I hear a lot of I don't know. I hear a lot of talking about past wounds or I'm a child of divorce, or I'm a child of this or that things that have happened to them in the past. Unfortunately, almost never, almost never, do I hear someone say I'm a child of God Almost never.
Speaker 1:And so the thing that has really stirred my heart just to say, corny, get out there and start talking more people about this, because people need to hear more of God's message and how much he loves them is that when I talk to people about their identity, when I talk to people about their money, unfortunately the Christians and non-Christians I talk to have the exact same answers. There's no variation. There's always a few exceptions to that rule, but there's almost no variation, and so that's the challenge that I feel like we're up against is that our use of money really is hindering our walk with Christ, and that's what gets me up in the morning. That's what gets me up to say I want to share with more people, because our use of money is really distracting us from our true identity.
Speaker 2:That's what Jesus said you can gain the whole world. But what is it? Profit a man if he gains the whole world, that forfeits his soul? It starts with knowing who we are, which starts with knowing who's we are. We belong to someone Exactly. We've been bought with a price. We're really valuable that he would give his only begotten Son for us? We're really valuable to him. When we step into that kind of love, well then it makes all the treasures of this world look like rust. I mean, I love the old song. I'd rather have Jesus than silver or gold. I'd rather have him than riches untold. I'd rather have Jesus than houses or lands. I'd rather be led by his nail pierced hands than to be the king of a vast domain or to be held in sin's dread sway. I'd rather have Jesus than anything this world affords. Today you don't write songs a whole lot like that anymore.
Speaker 1:That is beautiful.
Speaker 2:He's the treasure, he's the treasure. The crazy thing is he says of us we're his treasure. Can we just take a step today to believe that a little bit more, maybe one degree more than we did yesterday, that the king of kings and the Lord of lords calls us his beloved children and we're seen as his treasure. Therefore, when he becomes our treasure, it loosens our grip on the treasures of this world because we recognize we already have it. You can't buy it and you can't take it away from me. I'm the richest man in the world because I have the greatest treasure in the universe. He's my perfect heavenly Father. He knows me, he made me, he loves me. The great thing is he's got a big family, not just one or two kids. He's adopted so many of us into his family and we could all say the same about ourselves.
Speaker 1:Amen, Amen to that. That is certainly my prayer. For all of you listening is that you can lean in and really begin to feel even one degree more of how much God truly loves you and treasures you. I think that's where it all begins, John. Thank you so, so much for coming on with us today. I so appreciate your heart and it's clear to see how God is working in and through you. I just so appreciate you taking the time this is awesome.
Speaker 1:Before we go, let's talk about something fun. What are you doing right now that has you excited?
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks. Well, I am about to launch a brand new book that has been years in the making. It's the most beautiful book I've ever seen. I mean that in a very physical, image-heavy way. We have worked with an amazing group of artists to do 32 unique portraits. Great men and women often used to have their portraits painted of them before photography. That's why, when we go to museums, we look at a lot of those portraits. Well, we're bringing that back in this brand new book called 31 Gospel Patrons.
Speaker 2:It's 31 unique interviews with business leaders, professional people from a variety of backgrounds, professions. We've got entrepreneurs, artists, magazine editors, lawyers, financial advisors, wealth managers, investment bankers, private equity people, entrepreneurs of a variety of stripes, ceos who have all answered a series of 10 questions that are really in line with this podcast and our conversation today. Questions like do you believe God is generous? When did you first experience or encounter the joy of giving? What are the dangers of wealth? How do you treasure Jesus more than wealth and success? How do you make some of your giving decisions? What's your own personal sense of mission or calling? What are three words you want to be remembered by A series of questions like this that we've asked 31 different leaders from the US and the UK and accompanying their powerful stories, true experiences.
Speaker 2:Are these beautiful portraits that you feel like you get to know these people, that you get to broaden this conversation? A lot of times, when we talk about money, you're like who can I talk to? Who even thinks like me? Who's even talking about this? I want to give you a community in a book that I want to present this to you as a group of people who are in this conversation with you.
Speaker 2:I love it and we're wrestling these things through at various levels and degrees, that are like you, that have thought about this a lot and are still on the journey, and we've packaged that all up in a beautiful, beautiful new book coming out called 31 Gospel Patrons, with these custom portraits all throughout. That'll, I think, make the book really exciting.
Speaker 1:Oh, that sounds so exciting, and John showed me the book. I can attest to how beautiful it is and that was actually one of the things I really liked about Gospel Patrons too your first book In the back. You did a few well, not you, but you had artists do a few portraits and I thought that was so fun. I loved it and so I'm so excited to read this book. Can you tell us where we can find the book and when it comes out?
Speaker 2:Yes, it'll be out in January and the best place to get it will be gospelpatronsorg. It's a hardcover book, cloth bound. It feels like an old school book, the way books were meant to be made. It's not cheaply glued together. It's actually a perfect gift if you want to give it to someone else in your life who you go. Hey, I need this book. But I know someone who really needs this book. It could be a client, a friend, a family member, a financial advisor, cpa. It could be your father and you're like it's Father's Day. I have no clue what to get him. This is a great book, but it's gospelpatronsorg is where you find it.
Speaker 1:Ooh, that's a solid idea, perfect. Thank you, john. I know I'm already thinking of like 10 people, so thank you for that. So much, and thank you again.
Speaker 2:Well, what's fun is? We launched this book on Kickstarter and one of the levels that people could jump in with was they could order one book, two books or 10 books, and the most common way we had people jump in to support the launch of this book was people ordered 10 books. Yes, we had 44 different people say I want 10 books. Yeah, I'm going to give this thing away like crazy. So that's just so exciting for us.
Speaker 1:I love that and I think again, that's a testament to your work and the fact that God is just all over this and in this, because when I got gospel patrons it was a gift, someone gave it to me. It just came up in conversation and they said, courtney, you need to read this. And they said they carry an extra wherever they go and I know I've given it. Like it's just one of those works where you want more people to read it and you want people to experience it. And again it points us back to our identity and Christ. And what I also love about this, john, is it gives us a bigger vision for who God is, and so I believe your new book coming out will do that exact same thing of giving people bigger vision of who God is and recognizing he's not just in my four walls and my house, right where I stay locked away, but he's doing amazing things throughout the entire world and through Christian's hearts, like right here in my backyard too.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so exciting. Thank you again, John. This was incredible. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast with us, Absolutely. Thank you for listening. If today's conversation has blessed you, share our podcast with a friend and if you have a money question, email me at Courtney and marglicoachinggroupcom. I'm Courtney Margley and this has been the heart of money.