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The Heart of Money
Join financial coach, Christ follower, and owner of the Markley Coaching Group, Courtney Markley as she takes on tough money questions and delivers actionable guidance. Courtney's gentle but straightforward approach creates a safe, nonjudgmental space for people to talk about their money challenges. After coaching for several years, Courtney understands that money stress is usually a symptom of a deeper problem. Her approach to money will expand your understanding of how to succeed financially. You will gain tools needed to improve your money mindset while becoming someone who can have deeper, Christ-centered money discussions. Join Courtney in her mission to change the way we talk about money, one conversation at a time.
The Heart of Money
Breaking Money Taboos: A Conversation with Chris Kear
What if breaking the taboo around money conversations could transform your walk with Christ? Join us as Chris Kear, director of discipleship at the Center for Financial Discipleship, shares his wisdom on navigating the often uncomfortable terrain of financial discussions. This episode offers a candid look at the church's unrealized potential to engage in meaningful conversations about money, aiming to shift the focus from fundraising to fostering spiritual growth through financial discipleship.
Chris and I explore how vulnerability in money talks can lead to profound personal growth and stronger relationships. Together, we highlight the relief and healing that arises from sharing financial experiences in a safe, judgment-free space. By normalizing discussions about money, we hope to encourage more people to lean into financial discipleship as a regular form of spiritual growth.
Links to episode:
Website: Center for Financial Discipleship
Apply for 1-1 coaching with Chris
Email: Chris@financialdiscipleship.center
Attend an upcoming webinar
I'm Courtney Markley, and this is the Heart of Money. Talking about money can be really hard and uncomfortable, but it doesn't need to be. The problem is, we're taught to think about money in terms that are too much like science, with rules and regulations, and not enough like psychology, with emotions and nuance. Join me on my mission to change the way we talk about money, one conversation at a time. Welcome everyone to the Heart of Money podcast. I'm your host, courtney Markley, and I am joined once again by my good friend, chris Keer. Welcome, chris. Hey, courtney, hey, it's so awesome to have you back on the Heart of Money podcast. Thanks for coming. I'm glad we didn't scare you away.
Speaker 2:No, it is good to be here. It is good to be here.
Speaker 1:Good. So if you caught our last episode, you met Chris for the first time. He is the director of discipleship at our new venture, the Center for Financial Discipleship, and we started this organization because we understand that talking about money can be really hard. It can feel super sticky, you know, we get that. We feel it on a real heart level and we just want to say that we're here to help. So, chris, today we're talking about the fact that money conversations are really taboo in our culture and how can we start to make them more normal in conversation? So let's lean into that today. So have at it bud. What do we got first?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's just acknowledging first of all that it is taboo, especially in the West, in America. I was reading an article in the Atlantic a little while back and Kimberly Chong she's an anthropological lecturer in there, and in this article she says that in America asking someone what they earn is considered taboo because you're directly questioning a person's worth Right. So even just in that one random article in the Atlantic, this idea that this researcher saying like oh well, how dare you in America ask someone what they earn Because?
Speaker 2:and the reason like even that feels uncomfortable for us, as you imagine just being out and somebody going, hey, what do you make? That's not a question we ask and go. Why is that such a scary or taboo question? Because, oh well then, yeah, it is in our world, connected to our worth, and so just one example of how it's taboo and we, just within the church, I think, we say be generous, or tithe, we might give some very exterior based action steps. Steps in terms of save for emergency fund, pay off debt, put aside money for a rainy day, those kinds of things, but in terms of actually talking about what's going on inside our hearts, inside our lives, inside of us, around this topic of money.
Speaker 2:That hits every aspect of our lives. You can't exist within our world today without interacting with money, and it certainly touches all aspects of our hearts. You can't exist within our world today without interacting with money, and it certainly touches all aspects of our hearts. Quite frankly, we're just either taught that it's rude or not acceptable to talk about, or even if we're willing to, we're scared to death to do it and we don't know how, and so we avoid it that way. So, either way, the end result is it's taboo, which means the church doesn't engage this topic, which is so connected to our hearts and so connected to our allegiance for Jesus, and so we're just forfeiting this ground. Yeah, that's the deal is, we just don't talk about it, and we should talk about it because it matters to Jesus.
Speaker 1:I love that you made that connection. That to so many people here in the States when you ask them how much they earn, that feels so vulnerable and, yeah, a little bit shocking. Shocking because in a way, we equate our net worth to our worth as human beings and that feels a little scary. I'm not used to engaging with people on that level. Even like thinking about our financial advisor friends and our friends who work in financial industries who are used to talking about money. People at least come to them expecting to have some kind of financial conversation.
Speaker 2:You would hope, if you're talking with your financial advisor, you would hope right.
Speaker 1:Even then, we tend to stay on like the surface level right when we look at the 30,000 foot view, but like let's not go too deep, because then we're going to start to like feel some tension. I'm not sure how to handle it Right. I think both sides of the table aren't sure how to handle it Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Right, Like what happens if I ask a question and the person reveals something like really personal and intimate, like how do I respond to that? Or what if someone asks us a question that we just don't feel comfortable sharing? So it brings up all kinds of tensions. And then even within our own homes we find that most people don't talk about money and again, if we do, it's on that very surface level, kind of high. Let's stick to the numbers, the math. Maybe we'll talk about a budget, but then that's it. We're not talking about those deeper heart issues that really our money does a great job highlighting and magnifying. And so when we're yeah, it's interesting, right, it's like when we're talking about money, we're almost never actually talking about money, Isn't it interesting?
Speaker 2:That's fourth. Like say that one more time for people. Courtney, that's good.
Speaker 1:So when we're talking about money, we're not really talking about money. Normally, we're talking about the deeper rooted issues that our money is just highlighting, but most people haven't been given the tools and the language to navigate that and so they feel this tension. On our last podcast episode, chris, you mentioned, as you were newly married with your wife, you would get angry sometimes talking about the budget. That's, first of all, perfectly normal.
Speaker 2:I'm glad to hear that.
Speaker 1:Yes, you can tell that to Tara even though we're 20 years into marriage now.
Speaker 2:I think she understands, so, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, you still need that validation sometimes, right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but as you mentioned on the last episode, yeah, you felt angry, but on a deeper level as you started to look what was really underneath that emotion. Because again, the emotion is just highlighting like, oh, I need to go deeper here. Maybe lighting and like, oh, I need to go deeper here. Maybe sometimes you were sad, right, sad that maybe you had to put something on your heart and maybe you just simply didn't have the money for it that month. Or maybe you were feeling a little down on yourself because, oh, does that mean I'm not providing enough for my family if we can't go do all of these things? Right?
Speaker 1:So you can see really quickly how we can take just a surface level conversation of like, oh, I'm talking about the budget and it's making me mad. And then we start to go a few layers deep and now, oh, all of a sudden, I'm starting to question my worth as a husband. Am I showing up the way that I'm supposed to be? And also I'm just deeply saddened by some of the things that are going on in my heart and I'm not sure how to express it. And you can see that, all right, we were talking about money, but we're not really talking about money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. We're talking about hopes, we're talking about dreams, we're talking about value, we're talking about identity, we're talking about worth, we're talking about fears, we're talking about anxieties, Like that's all the stuff that's underneath that just manifests itself in money stuff, and so I go. Those are all things that man, the Lord, cares deeply about, as he's desiring to walk with us. And so when we go, I'm not going to lean into that or I'm not going to ask that question because it's rude or it's taboo or I don't know how we're forfeiting the opportunity to walk with each other into some of the most important things that we can walk through each other with. I mean for Tara and I to get on the same page of man.
Speaker 2:Chris is full of all sorts of drive for adventure and dreams, for experiences for our family and all these things. But if it just manifests as he's frustrated, because you know there's not enough that month to do what he wants to do and we just kind of solve the dollar and cents thing but we don't actually get into, man, tell me more about why you have those dreams. What are you hoping for our family Like? What would you love to see? How could we invite God into that? Is there a way locally that maybe it's not as grand as you had envisioned, but that he has opportunities for us that you're looking past because you always look to the big and the extreme or whatever. I mean you're missing the opportunity to experience that in the daily right Like that would have been a fantastic conversation for you know, 24 year old Chris and Tara to have versus.
Speaker 2:Just you know I'm angry about the budget. Let's take a breath and you know, fine, I won't do this this month here. You can do that. Done, Solved, Okay, the budget's balanced. Close it up, Move on for the day.
Speaker 1:Oh, I feel like that's speaking to so many people's hearts right now. Chris, I really do. I can feel a lot of people going, oh yep, I'm right there, I'm right there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're not alone in this deal, you know.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:First of all, I think the enemy would love for us just to think that this stuff that we feel, that swirls around us when these topics come up, that that's just you. You don't love Jesus enough or you're not secure in your identity enough. You know you don't make enough, or you haven't saved enough, or you name it. The enemy would love to just have a field day with that. And yet when we invite brothers and sisters in Christ into it to go, no, that's not the truth at all. And we in those conversations get the opportunity to remind each other of what the gospel really says. That's what Christian community is meant to do. Sometimes I can't remember God's goodness in my life and I need my brothers and sisters to remind me for me and I'll do the same for them. Right, and yet when we just stop at the surface level or we don't have the conversation at all, we're just giving up that chance to walk with each other in such a profound way and walk with the Lord in a deeper way.
Speaker 1:Right, so our hearts. What we're really petitioning for right here is for people to really embrace healthy, Christ-centered money conversations. It's a regular part of their discipleship and their spiritual growth. Not only their spiritual growth, but what I'm also hearing you highlight is also like a relational growth too, not only with, maybe, a spouse, but our community right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, Absolutely, and I love that you said that phrase healthy there, right? Because I think, whether it be within the home, whether it be within the church, sometimes when we talk about money it's not the healthiest. It's either guilt motivated or it's out of a form of manipulation or it's out of a form of duty, and I mentioned on our last podcast we did. God's not interested in half-hearted philanthropists. That's not for me. I'm remembering a quote from a commentary I read years ago. So whoever that is, they get credit for it. But I think that's it is going. Yeah, it's not just about moving dollars and cents around to fund things. It's about our allegiance to the kingdom and to God. So this whole thing's relational, Courtney, and our walk with Jesus is relational. Our living it out of our faith with other people is relational, and part of relationships is just learning to have what we perceive as hard conversations.
Speaker 2:That's right, and sometimes it's just ripping the Band-Aid off, right Like we're scared to death to have the conversation. And yet sometimes it will just rip the Band-Aid off and go. Well, that wasn't near as bad as I thought it was.
Speaker 1:I'm going to ask you a question, please do. I love this.
Speaker 2:How do you see when you get to have? These conversations with folks and you rip the bandaid off and go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's just talk about it, right.
Speaker 2:Is it always as bad as they think it's going to be?
Speaker 1:No, I only have a few clients who, after consistently working with me, still dread talking to me every time.
Speaker 2:But yet they keep coming back as your clients.
Speaker 1:They keep coming back, that's right.
Speaker 2:I mean, I keep going back to my dentist too, right?
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly, because you're getting served in some way. But no, the majority of the time, when we just start to press in and if you're sitting here and you're wondering, like how do I even start, well, what I do, anyways, is I simply just ask, like hey, chris, I heard that your budget's making you angry. Can we just lean in here a little bit? Can we go a little bit deeper? That's all you have to ask, right, and then just see what's underneath that.
Speaker 1:But as we create that space, what I find to be true is that nine out of 10 times, people are hungry for that space. They want a safe place, a safe person to open up to and be vulnerable about their life and their money, where they're not going to be judged but someone's going to just take a genuine interest and be curious about them and their life and allow them to share. Right, we're not judging how you're spending your money or if you're giving, or if you're not giving, or all these other things, right, but it's just a simple. You know what's going on. What are you present to right now? What is God calling you into? How can we continue to draw closer to Christ? Through money conversations? And that's where I find that truly money conversations are the easiest way to start introducing people to the heart of Jesus.
Speaker 2:I love that and I love just that posture that you described, where you described, first of all, not judgmental right, and so we don't come out of a spirit of judgment.
Speaker 2:I think we come assuming grace and I think we come with genuine curiosity, not looking to ask gotcha questions, not looking to ask questions for the sake of just exposing our shortfalls or whatever, and inviting people to really become aware of what are they present to in the midst of that right and locate themselves. And so those are the conversations that I want to have with more people and that I want our churches to have with more people, that I want our financial professionals to have and that I want our husbands and our wives within our Christian homes to have. But yet I think the enemy's just playing a real simple play by convincing us that we shouldn't talk about it or it's impolite, or it's rude, or it's not socially acceptable to talk about. And he didn't have to do anything complex in his grand strategy to short circuit those conversations. He's just convinced us that it's taboo, and we've all bought into that and try to be, you know, good, polite people and not have taboo conversations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it kind of makes me sick a little bit how easy it's been for him, hasn't it? It's like we're all very happy to keep quiet, yeah, but what we're constantly reminding people is that you can't heal something that stays hidden. Yeah, you gotta bring it to the light. And as soon as you do just like you were mentioning earlier, Chris as soon as you do there's this moment of like huh conversations with people where they're bringing things to light for the first time that have never been brought to light before, and afterwards it's uncomfortable in the moment, Sure, but afterwards you can see the sense of relief on their face, right Like I finally got it out. Yeah, that was really hard, but we worked through it. Yeah, Finally got it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and part of that, hiding that stuff in secrecy or not even like deep, dark, secret stuff, just the hidden fears, dreams, desires that lies beneath that stuff. When we leave it under the surface and don't talk about it, we just forfeit this opportunity to really do life with each other, you know? I mean, we are created for a relationship. We're created for a relationship with our Heavenly Father, his Son and His Holy Spirit, and we're also created for a relationship with our heavenly father, his son and his holy spirit, and we're also created for a relationship with one another. Like, this whole thing is a relational deal. Whether you're an introvert, extrovert, whatever, however you're wired, it's still a relational deal. Everything about our spirituality is connected to relationship, right? And so, man, the ability to walk some of that stuff out with other people, just how good it is to bring that stuff to the light and go. They actually didn't run away.
Speaker 2:I think that's what we're all fearful of, right? If you really knew me, then you wouldn't love me, right? And yet what we find is that God does already fully know you and he loves you more than you can ever imagine. And I think we get the opportunity to actually embody that, show that to one another, when we dig into some stuff that may be a little bit sticky, may be a little bit scary, and yet we don't run away, we stay.
Speaker 2:That's the beautiful thing, when we can actually be known and loved, because I'm scared that if you knew me you wouldn't love me. But gosh, how freeing does it feel to go. You know me and yet you still love me, both of our Heavenly Father and of the closest people in our world. Love me both of our heavenly father and of the closest people in our world. And that's where, when we don't talk about this stuff, we can think that we're known on so many other levels. But if you never talk about money, then you're not fully known, because it's just too much of a part of your life to say that you're fully known If you buy into this lie, that it's taboo and you shouldn't talk about it. And so, man, god's inviting you to be known and know that you're loved, because that's a beautiful, beautiful place to be.
Speaker 1:Amen to that. I love how you phrase it. I just want to press in to that just a little bit more. We all have that desire to feel seen.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Right To be known and at the same time, we put up walls. I feel this in my own life of like I want to be seen by other people and I want to be known.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I also am so scared, uh-huh, and so I kind of do one of these where like one hand is like, yeah, come forward, yep. And then the other hand is like, nope, stop, yep, like you've gone far enough right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we don't even realize we're actively doing it, sometimes right Like it's true.
Speaker 1:It's true. So we've kind of put up these mixed signals of like I want community, I want to be seen, I want to be known, I want to love other people, I want them to love me, but at the same time, like I'm not going to let you in that far. I don't think we do this on purpose, but we say like, well, I want you to know. The part of me that I want you to know right, the part that always looks good, the part that always acts good, right, where you know I want you to see me in a certain light is essentially like the tone that we're putting off versus like knowing who I really am.
Speaker 1:And I think a big piece, as we're leaning into this conversation of like how do we normalize money conversations I think a big piece of this starts with each of us and just leaning into being vulnerable. There's this one coach that I used to follow pretty religiously as I was getting started and he shared how, amongst his closest group of friends, they would meet I don't know, once a month or something, and it was like a very intentional meeting. This wasn't just like bros kicking it, but like they were getting together to like sharpen each other, and they would begin every meeting with the phrase the thing I don't want you to know about me is I love it, just going straight there.
Speaker 1:Just going straight there, straight there, yeah. And so it was around this time that I was listening to him and studying his work that I was invited to this private retreat sort of thing with a bunch of other coaches, and there was just like 10 to 12 of us and they essentially said, like Courtney, we're inviting the best of the best coaches and we want you there. And I'm like I feel like you got the wrong girl, like I'm not sure why I'm there, and they say, just cut, we're each going to give a talk, right, we're each going to present on the thing that we do better than anyone else in the room. And I'm looking at this group of people who have all pretty much been coaching longer than I had. At that point I'm like I don't do anything better than any of these people.
Speaker 1:And so I walked in with like this massive imposter syndrome and right before I went up to give my presentation, I felt the Lord say and you're going to begin with, the thing I don't want you to know about me is and so I still remember Chris being in front of this group of people feeling so nervous, feeling so less than and I started out by saying the thing I don't want you to know about me is, and I hadn't pre-planned what I was going to say.
Speaker 1:So I'm like, well, I'm just going to be honest in this moment and share I don't want to derail us too far but essentially what I shared for them in this particular time period. I just had my second child and I was dealing really heavily with postpartum depression, and so I basically said you know, this is what I'm dealing with. There's lots of days I don't get off the couch, like I don't feel like I deserve to be here, because I know I'm not showing up how I normally show up. And then I challenged each of them to also complete the phrase. The thing I don't want you to know about me is yeah, the cool thing that happened, chris, was that by the end, everyone in the room is crying Everyone in the room basically said you know, we showed up with this massive imposter syndrome to feel like none of us belong to be here.
Speaker 1:And then we got community out of that thing of like great, we all can agree, we can look each other in the eye and say, all right, you're here because you deserve to be here. So like, let's just drop that. And it was just really cool to see how an act of vulnerability led other people to be vulnerable and then created this deeper sense of community within that group of people. And so I shared that story because I think it just takes one person to go first.
Speaker 2:I agree Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Right, it takes one person to go first and then we start to create that deeper community. Because the thing that I wish more people knew and, chris, tell me if you agree with this I was like we talked to so many people about their faith and their money and all these things, and a lot of people struggle with the exact same things. Right, maybe their lives look a bit different, but the outworkings of it, the things, the big things that they're struggling with, are very similar, but they feel so alone and they feel so isolated. I'm like man. I wish more people would speak up and just say listen, the thing I don't want you to know about me is let's just talk about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that takes some courage to do that Right and to lean and go. If they all run out of the room and, you know, call me a horrible person and a heretic and whatever it is that they think doesn't matter, Right, Like it's, who does my God say that I am now? Are they all going to run out of the room and say all those awful things? Probably not, Actually, I'm really confident not, depending on where you're sharing this right, but we're so scared of that happening. We short circuit community and we short circuit the ability to do life with one another. Like you said, kind of simultaneously saying I want you to come near, but yet don't come too far or only stop at the boundaries that I've made or the edifice of who. I want you to see that I am, Because heaven forbid. You see that I'm really this.
Speaker 2:When it comes to money conversations, I would love for pastors to understand like you can talk about money from the pulpit and your people not think that you're just trying to raise your own salary. If you talk about the holistic approach to scripture, you've got to talk about this. It's just a part of it. Approach to scripture you've got to talk about this. It's just a part of it. And yet I mean, so many of my friends in ministry are just like well, I don't want them to think that we're just after their wallets or whatever, and it's like man, why don't you leap with this and tell them, like God's after your hearts?
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And your wallets are a part of it, right, and there's just fertile ground there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we just don't have the conversations, and yet I don't know many things that are more connected to our heart strings than our purse strings, and so if our end game is people's hearts, you got to talk about the purse too. That's right, and it's not that the purse is the end game. The heart's the end game, but in order to fully get to that, money's got to be on the table, and you got to talk about it.
Speaker 1:That's right. I feel a sense of defiance. As you're sharing this, I want to like push back a little bit, a healthy pushback.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:To the folks that say well, I'm afraid that if I talk about money then people are going to think I'm just, you know, fundraising for my own salary or whatever. It is Sure, because I hear that too. And I'm curious, like, what if we pushed back on that when we hear that and just say, you know, is that the sense you got from Jesus, Like he talks about money? What about 25% of the time as we're reading scripture, just about as I'm reading scripture? Do I get the sense that Jesus just wants my money?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I have never gotten that feel, have you?
Speaker 2:No, I get the sense that he wants disciples to be fully devoted followers of him. As a part of that, he talks about money. Yeah, so to that question, that pushback of man, multiple things. One is, when you talk about it, you let people know you want something for them, not something from them. Part of it is we talk about it in terms of the global church and kingdom work everywhere, and so not all giving has to go directly to the person asking for it, right, and so not all giving has to go directly to the person asking for it, right, and so that's right. It's an invitation to be faithful and play a role in the global work and invest in things of the kingdom everywhere. I think just even those two short things, right there, go a long ways towards you know, feeling like, oh, that person's just after raising their church budget or meeting their need or whatever.
Speaker 2:And the flip side is you also got to talk about it when it's beyond, just when you need a need.
Speaker 1:That's right, if you only bring up-. Beyond fundraising, that's right.
Speaker 2:If you only bring up stewardship when there's a capital campaign on the line, then stewardship becomes synonymous with the church wants to build something, versus what it actually is, which is all of this is the Lord's and he's just asking me to steward it for this brief season that I'm here on this earth and I want to manage it and steward it the best way I can Like. That doesn't just come up when there's a new need to build something or a new campaign or whatever, and so that's part of where, if you'll normalize this, even from the pulpit and from your church leadership side of things, it becomes less likely that people would see it that way it's. If you only talk about it when there's a need or a giant fundraising campaign, well then, pastor, talk about stewardship. Of course it's time to raise something in, versus just teaching the whole council of God. You go hey, we're in Matthew six, we're going to talk about this, or we're in, you know, pick your spot and then unpacking towards, just like this is just part of discipleship.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah, I think we can help people make a distinction between fundraising and financial discipleship, because they're not synonymous. They're not exactly the same, right, they're very different. So, like you said, it's also kind of choosing. When we talk about money, right, if we're only talking about it when we have an ask, then it can start to feel like, yeah, I only feel like you talk about money when you want something from me, because there's always an ask. Yeah, my family.
Speaker 2:I grew up. My dad was in the old business. We moved all the time, and so whenever they called, my parents called a family meeting. What I eventually learned was that meant we were going to be told where we were moving next. Right, so you know. You said family meeting, and then by the time I'm a teenager. My first question is just where are we getting transferred to now? Right, because I can't think of other times as a child, we did lots of stuff as a family, but I can't think of times that we had family meetings, other than to find out that, right, and so you know. Versus if we just had family meetings on a regular basis to talk be where we were moving, then I would view family meetings differently. But that's right, you say it to this day and I start looking around for boxes right, you're like twitching a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, anyway, that's a whole nother topic.
Speaker 1:No, that's a great analogy right there, A really great example. Yeah, as we're leaning into this a little bit further, something that's coming to mind, Chris, is that whether we're talking about a church leader or we're talking about a financial professional who wants to engage deeper, or even someone who simply wants to engage deeper in their home, we may be saying, no, I'm not going to talk about money because it's taboo. I just don't want to offend someone. That might be kind of like the blanket statement, but I think what's underneath that is a lot of self-orienting, and by that I mean like I'm trying to protect myself here, or I'm worried about my own self-image, or I'm worried about it may not be offending someone, but I'm worried about what you're going to think of me, if right. And so I think, if we go underneath it, I think it goes a lot deeper than simply well, I just don't want to offend you.
Speaker 2:Sure, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so. So that's kind of my healthy challenge to folks as they're listening in is, if you notice that you have this tendency to lean towards well many conversations are taboo or they should be avoided, I would just encourage you to maybe look what's underneath that. Is it truly just I don't want to offend or is there something beyond it, a bit deeper, and it's important to point out absolutely that this is a cultural narrative that we've been given. Part of the way that we behave with money comes from psychology, and a piece of that is our culture and how we grew up.
Speaker 1:But if we zoom out for just a minute and provide a little bit of different perspective, not every country operates in this very hushed tone around money. There are a lot of places you can go where people consider it very normal to say, hey, how much money do you make? What was that raise? Like, how much did your car cost? How much did your house cost? Like this is all just very normal conversation, and so I want us just to start challenging what we consider normal and just recognize this isn't a law, this isn't a rule of life, but this is just something that we have adapted as a culture. Yeah, and we can change it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and another aspect of it is so you're speaking to people who are treating it like it's taboo. I would also add to that people maybe it's your financial advisors, maybe it's anybody who only talk about money in the exterior, like mechanical, transactional way, and just go. You're talking about money, but, man, is there an opportunity to talk about what's behind the money? Right, that's right. It's kind of like when you show up at a party or whatever you know, you get the question how are you doing? Or what have you been up to? Well, I mean, I can just answer that with yeah, we were at some kids soccer games, or I'm doing fine, or whatever. So I can just stay at that level all day long.
Speaker 2:And, yes, you could say you knew me from that interaction, but you don't really know me, right? And that's kind of what it's like when we just deal with the external or the mechanical, just the transactional side of money. And I would say, man, there's fertile ground in there If we'll go a layer or two or three deeper and just go what's really behind some of this and allow ourself to be seen or to be known, you know.
Speaker 1:That's really good, chris. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate your wisdom and the insight that you bring. As we're wrapping up for today, what's the last piece, what's just like the last piece of advice? If people don't walk away with anything else from this talk, what's the thing that you want them to walk away from, as we're leaning into this, how do we make money conversations a normal part of life, a normal part of our discipleship and our walk with Christ?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say we all want to be known and we all want to be loved, and yet, either when we don't talk about this or we just stay at a mechanical, transactional level, we're forfeiting that opportunity to let someone else in, to let them see us and still choose to love us, and we're forfeiting avenues of our heart for discipleship, right Like that's. At the end of the day, this whole thing is about being fully devoted followers of Jesus, and Jesus wants our full allegiance, and so there's not a spiritual life and a financial life and a physical life and a professional life. It's all spiritual. And so let's talk about this and trust that he'll meet us in that and trust that he'll honor that. And so I appreciate one commentator, jen Pollock.
Speaker 2:Michelle says Our relationship to money is a barometer of spiritual health. What we give, spend, save, desire, worry about, reveals our kingdom priorities, and I just love that aspect of when you get into this man our relationship to money. It's really a reflection of our spiritual health, and that's, at the end of the day, what we're about is developing a deeper relationship with the Lord. So we gotta talk about some things in a different way.
Speaker 1:Amen. Thank you so much, chris. I appreciate you being here. So, yes, whether you are a church leader and you're saying, yeah, we need to have more money conversations with our congregation, or you're a financial professional and you're recognizing I have a really good opportunity here to go deeper with people, to be sharing the gospel with them, to be drawing them closer to the heart of Jesus, or whether you simply want to know how can I get better at doing this at home with my own family, we at the Center for Financial Discipleship have a lot of different tools and resources for you. So get connected with us at financialdiscipleshipcenter. That's our website and if you want to connect one-on-one with Chris, if you're curious potentially about having him even coach you, you can email Chris at Chris at financialdiscipleshipcenter.
Speaker 2:Would love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Thank you all for joining us. I know I seriously encourage you all to reach out to Chris. Now a couple of you are probably going like should I, Should I not? Would I be bugging him? You know what Is that weird? No, Like Chris is the best. He would love to talk to you. Please, if the Holy Spirit is leading you, reach out, let's have a conversation and let's just start drawing people closer to Jesus together.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Would love that.
Speaker 1:Thank you all so much for being here. Thanks for having me, courtney. Thank you for listening. If today's conversation has blessed you, share our podcast with a friend and if you have a money question, email me at Courtney at MarkleyCoachingGroupcom. I'm Courtney Markley and this has been the Heart of Money.