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The Heart of Money
Join financial counselor, Christ follower, and founder of the Center for Financial Discipleship, Courtney Markley as she takes on tough money questions and delivers actionable guidance. Courtney's gentle but straightforward approach creates a safe, nonjudgmental space for people to talk about their money challenges. After coaching for several years, Courtney understands that money stress is usually a symptom of a deeper problem. Her approach to money will expand your understanding of how to succeed financially. You will gain tools needed to improve your money mindset while becoming someone who can have deeper, Christ-centered money discussions. Join Courtney in her mission to change the way we talk about money, one conversation at a time.
The Heart of Money
From the Archives: A Conversation with Michael Blue
We are excited to bring you new episodes of the Heart of Money podcast this August! In the meantime, enjoy one of our favorite past conversations.
In this episode Courtney interviews Michael Blue, Director of Discipleship for Ron Blue Institute and author of Free to Follow. In his early 30s, Michael was living the "quintessential Christian life," but there was a problem. He was spiritually empty. During their conversation, Michael shares how he came to a pivotal moment in his life: decide to live as if the Bible were true, or walk away from his faith.
Reference link:
Purchase Michael's book, Free to Follow.
I'm Courtney Markley, and this is the Heart of Money. Talking about money can be really hard and uncomfortable, but it doesn't need to be. The problem is we're taught to think about money in terms that are too much like science, with rules and regulations, and not enough like psychology, with emotions and nuance. Join me on my mission to change the way we talk about money, one conversation at a time. Hello everyone, thank you so much for joining us today. I have a really special guest I'm excited to introduce you to. If you don't know Michael Blue yet, you're welcome. Now you do, michael welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you, courtney. It's really really good to be here and with you.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm so excited that you're here. This is truly a special treat. So, for those of you who may not know Michael, he is the Director of Discipleship for Ron Blue Institute and he's also the author of Free to Follow. So, michael, before we start diving into your book which, by the way, I love so much, give us just a little insight on what's it like to be you on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 2:Well, I live in Austin, Texas, and I've been married about 22 years, have three boys. So my oldest child is 18 years old, about to go to college. So we're kind of in the middle of all of that, and then I have a 16-year-old and 13-year-old. So from a personal standpoint, we stay pretty busy. Professionally, I do a lot of different things. I work for the Ron Blue Institute, I run the fellowship program called the 923 Fellowship. I actually do kind of my tent making, if you will. I practice law, so I do some of that. I also preach at my local church on a regular basis. I'm on our teaching team and I try to be around for my kids and my wife as much as we can. So there's a lot of different things going on, but it's a really, really good season of life.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. And, yes, there's probably a lot of people here wondering what the fellowship the 923 fellowship is that you mentioned, and tell us a little bit more about that. That's actually how you and I got connected.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we started it. We've run two cohorts of it so far. It's about a nine month program, a nine-month program, a nine-to-ten-month program where we basically explored Luke 9.23. If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. And so what does it look like to follow Jesus? And since it's connected to the Ron Blue Institute, it kind of leads with our finances.
Speaker 2:But the secret, dirty little secret about all of it is what we're really trying to get at is what it looks like to follow Jesus, not is there a right way to spend my money, and so we really dive deep into discipleship, deep into how do I live a life that draws me into intimacy with God, how do I draw near to Him in all areas of my life? So that includes my finances, but it's not just like that's not the one area we're trying to fix, because we know that our whole lives can kind of get disjointed and messy. So how do I get all of this and put it in line as I try to follow Jesus and live a life that looks like Him? You know, as we like to say, when you're following somebody, you want to be near to them, but you also want to live a life that's similar to what they lived. That is what following actually means. So that's what we try to look at in the fellowship, and it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:It is. I can attest to that. It is a lot of fun. I'm sure it's a lot of fun for you to curate the program and bring everything together. And one of the materials, one of the books that we read during the fellowship, is actually a book that you wrote, free to follow, and I want to talk about this today because it is convicting in all the right ways, and I read it and I say more and more people need to read this book and they need to hear about your experience. So today, for those of you listening, we're going to talk about how our use of money is really just a reflection of our hearts and, michael, you have a really great testimony to this piece.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to read actually a piece from your book. I'm going to be on page two. I know you guys are going to run out and get this book after this airs and you're going to want to read it and you're going to want to know what page I'm on. I'm on page two, all right. So you're giving us insight into your mindset. You're at this point when you're having this kind of aha moment. You're 30. Remind me, how old are you right now, michael?
Speaker 2:I'm 45.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm putting on the spot. I'm so sorry. Okay, all right. So this aha moment happened about 15 years ago. Okay, that's helpful frame of reference for us. So at this point you're 30 years old and you say I've been married eight years, have two children and have been working as a big firm attorney for four years. We live in a nice house two and a half miles from downtown Austin, texas. We belong to church, attend regularly, tithe faithfully, save diligently and from all worldly. External measures are prospering. We were living the catalog version of success successful, sweet Christian life.
Speaker 1:But there was a problem. I was spiritually empty, going through the motions, questioning my faith. Frankly, I didn't need God in my life. He was nice for staying out of hell, but otherwise he didn't serve much purpose. I had taken care of pretty much everything else Retirement, life insurance, disability insurance, college funding. It was all under control. The only thing I needed God for was a cell for my soul, and if that was all he was good for, was he even necessary? That's a lot. That's a lot.
Speaker 1:When I read this, I think I just like stopped in my tracks, because how true is it that? That is a lot of our experience, and it may be, whether you recognize it or not, that is a lot of our experience. And it may be, whether you recognize it or not, that is a lot of our experience where we use money as our security and to essentially fund everything that we want to do here and we put God on the shelf of like, yep, you'll be nice when I need you, when I need that green pass, that ticket into heaven, but other than that like, are you really good for anything? Is my relationship with God really affecting anything how I live my day-to-day life? Right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So I'm just curious what kind of led up to this, having this realization for you?
Speaker 2:You know I grew up in a Christian home. You mentioned. I was the director of discipleship of the Ron Blue Institute. Those who don't know, my father is Ron Blue, so I was working in an institute named after him and he was a guy who started in the 70s a Christian financial planning firm and he literally wrote books on how do you manage your money in line with the Bible, right, and he would help counsel and the company's tagline was helping Christians plan and manage their money so they could have more to give away. And so it was the idea of how do I be responsible so that we're able to be more generous.
Speaker 2:So you know, I kind of grew up in this ecosphere where, because he wrote a book, he kind of got a little bit well-known and I said probably the privilege, but also a burden in some ways, of growing up around a lot of really well-known Christians, and so the people in the 80s and the 90s that you think of as being pretty well-known Christians, I grew up around these people because they were friends, clients of my dad's, and so it was just kind of, you know, dinner-type people where we would know these people and I was, I think, blessed to see that one.
Speaker 2:What we had done in this celebrity culture of Christianity was really dangerous, and we were raising up people to a place that nobody deserved to be in. But the other thing I saw I think through that was in this kind of culture of Christianity in the time, there was a lot of people who would be professing Christians in the US, and so I think a lot of people believed. If we can just get people to do certain things and experience certain things that are quote biblical, they'll want to know God more, and so I think it was well-intentioned. But I think what happened as a result of that is we ended up with this principle-based Christianity and that was the result of my life I had a very principle-based Christianity.
Speaker 2:Some call it legalism and I think it is to some extent, but it's just kind of, if I do X, y and Z which the Bible or you know some person in the Bible Nehemiah or whoever we want to pick tells me to do, then I will experience success. But it was really worldly success that I was experiencing was the emphasis, and so it was kind of this hey, if we can attract people with worldly success through the Bible, maybe they'll really want God. But the problem is is when we get the world, people don't tend to go after God and say, who gave it to me? They tend to think, oh, I'm good, I actually didn't need God for these things.
Speaker 2:And so I think that was kind of what was going on in my life is I had come to this point where I had done these things, I had done the principles, I was for all intents and purposes living a successful life, but my spirituality was broken. Right, I didn't really have. I even had a quiet time pretty much every day at this point. I've always been pretty good at that, right. I would sit down, I'd read my Bible every morning. It was just a lot of going through the motions of I'm supposed to do these things and there was no relationship or very little relationship with God. And so I think I got to a point where I'm like why am I doing this? Like I'm kind of tired, got a lot going on and I'm kind of tired of doing it if there's no reason.
Speaker 2:So I kind of took me to that place, I think.
Speaker 1:Very good. Thank you so much for sharing this and I love that you bring attention to the fact that you had a really unique childhood and that, as you mentioned, your dad pretty much wrote the book on how to behave biblically with our money. Right, so it's not from a lack of knowledge that you're coming from this. You have all the right tools, you have the right knowledge, you know all the right people, even and you were in this place, you know in your early 30s of. I'm going through the motions, I'm reading my Bible, I'm spending quiet time with God, I'm using my money, you know, in a diligent manner, but I'm spiritually empty.
Speaker 2:As I've contemplated and talked to people, I don't think my experience is that unique right, and that's one reason to talk about it is sometimes. I think one of Satan's great lies for all of us is that we are unique and we struggle uniquely and no one else suffers through these things. But I think if we bring some of these things to light, not everyone certainly will identify with this, but I think a lot of people have this experience of man I'm doing the things I'm supposed to do, but I don't feel any closer to God and I don't really feel like my internal life or my desires or these other things really have changed that much, other than maybe I feel a little more guilty about what I'm not doing and I think I should do.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, I appreciate bringing that up because sometimes that's what it feels like right Of here are the rules to follow, and, yeah, there's going to be a little bit of guilt thrown in when you bring that rule or you're not quite living up to expectations, but the relationship with Christ isn't necessarily at the center and it's not driving the desire to want to do these things Right. So I talked to a lot of people who I believe are in this similar space where you are at, and I'm just curious what started to stir in your soul to say, ok, yeah, something has to change. And you talk about basically making a decision. Right, I either have to decide that I just really don't believe all the things that I said, that I had believed up to this point and I'm just going to, you know, kind of wash my hands and move on with my life, or I need to take some pretty dramatic steps to reorient my life and how I'm living to actually follow Christ. So what kind of led up to that decision point?
Speaker 2:I actually spent a bit of time just going deep into faith and saying I credibly believe these things, going through law school and you know, you get this, you know wrong, probably headed sense of oh, I have this high education, I should know all these things. And can a person in this level of education believe certain things that certainly you know? If you, you know, you look at certain scientists and whatnot, a lot of people are saying, well, no, that's not true or that's not how things work. So you think, okay, intellectually, where do I sit on these things? Because I've kind of accepted them for a long time and so that really I kind of just spent some time exploring that and as I came out on the other side, having more confidence in my faith.
Speaker 2:Faith is more than just intellectual. I want to be very clear there. But even from an intellectual standpoint I feel like faith, christian faith, explains the world and our experience in it better than any explanation, right than anything else. That doesn't mean it proves Christianity, but it certainly. To me it gives the best explanation for why we're here. Why is there evil in the world? Why, you know, why is there suffering? Why do I experience these disconnects and these longings in my life, and I think faith and Christianity explains those things better than anything else does. So then that just kind of it said okay, if I truly believe that and I believe that God is real, I believe eternity is real, I believe that if people don't accept God as their savior, that they'll be separated from God for eternity, and that's the worst thing in the world to happen. How am I going to live towards that and helping other people see that? And so I began to just, you know, take stock of what I was doing, who I was surrounding myself with, and trying to move more intentionally towards doing those things that would indicate that I believed certain things to be true. That makes sense.
Speaker 2:There's a good book that we actually read in the fellowship with CT Studd and I hadn't read this at the time but he tells the story of finding this atheist evangelistic pamphlet of sorts, and more or less what it said was hey, if Christians really believe these things to be true about eternal things and the nature of things, they would live differently. They would tell everybody that they could. You wouldn't be able to stop them because of the fear of this happening to their loved ones and whatnot, and so his conclusion was well, since they don't live like this, they clearly don't believe these things to be true. Conclusion was well, since they don't live like this, they clearly don't believe these things to be true. And I didn't want that to be true of my life, and that was a huge catalyst point for CT Studd and his life and it's kind of been a thing to try to remind myself of regularly of the reality of something that is forever.
Speaker 1:I love where you're going here Because, again, people listening you're probably starting to feel the tension and why this book was so convicting. Again, in a great way, because when we start talking about money in a biblical context, it really does force us to make a decision. Right, are you going to live as if these things were true, as if we actually believe what the Bible is saying is true, that God knows, not only you know. We're not only going to listen to his instructions about you know, getting out of debt or whatever that is, but we're also going to listen to his instruction about not hoarding wealth and being ultra generous and really caring for the poor and the people in our community around us. And it makes me think of one of the quotes from your book.
Speaker 1:I'm on page 157. So, essentially, if we as Christians are living our life no different than our non-Christian neighbors, you say it proclaims that life with God offers nothing more than life without God. And jumping down a little bit, when we pursue personal peace and affluence just like everyone else, we're telling the world that the God we worship can't satisfy our souls. We testify that this life is the best that there is. How does it feel to get your own words repeated back to you.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I even say in the book, as I've been influenced by so many people and writers. I love to read and CS Lewis is a person that I enjoy reading, as I know a lot of people do. And you know, in many ways it's saying very poorly what he says so clearly of you know, we're pursuing mud pies in a slum Right and we think, not having any idea what's being offered by holiday at sea, and so we make these little mud pies and think, look, how beautiful my mud pie is. Instead of you know, hey, you're being invited to the holiday at sea, as he says, and yet we can't look up from our mud pies. And so we tell people, hey, this mud, go make a better mud pie than I make, or go try to match my mud pie. And we all sit around in the mud in the slums making mud pies when there's something so much better, that's out there.
Speaker 1:That's very well put. That's really well put.
Speaker 2:But it's so hard I mean, I think this is the challenge we have is to live toward eternity, and I think that's, you know, wrestling I've always had, and I think many have is because it is out there. I can't touch it, I can't feel it, yet that's not the right word. I can touch it and feel it, I just don't recognize it. I believe that we are in eternity already and we do have the ability that you know, as we interact with God and the Holy Spirit. But I don't recognize eternity today, as I will when I see much more clearly on that day. But we are able to touch it, I think now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So essentially, what you're encouraging people to do is don't look at earth as our forever home. Remember that heaven is our forever home If you're part of the body of Christ. This is where, ultimately, you want to be focusing your efforts and your time. Right Is how can I use money as a tool just to draw me closer to Christ? And how can I use money as a tool just to draw me closer to Christ? And how can I use money as a tool to bring more people into the kingdom of heaven? And you know, countless people are experiencing all kinds of really real hardships right now. And what's it saying about the condition of our heart when we're basically ignoring those people and ignoring the hardships and just focusing on accumulating more in case we ever feel some pain?
Speaker 2:right.
Speaker 1:Right, so I get into these conversations a lot with different clients and just regular people. Honestly, on a day-to-day of, okay, I want to live more like God's word is true. I want to kind of have that very, you know, like the line in the sand, like no, I'm not doing this anymore. I want to reorient my life and the struggle that we all face I know you do too is our society really isn't built up for the Christian lifestyle. Right, it's really in competition with the Christian lifestyle because you know we're just beat every day upside the head with. You know you need more, you need more. You need more security, you need more safety. You need more stuff. You need more happiness.
Speaker 1:You know more, more, more, more more, so walk us through, obviously we know you're not perfect and you're not living this perfect life, because none of us are no right, but you obviously did quite a bit to take a hard turn to say, ok, this is a trajectory where my life is going right now and I don't like where that is going because it's not leading me closer to Christ. I'm going to pivot. What did that pivot look like in your life? More specifically, for people to start getting an idea of what can they do in their lives too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean this is a long journey. Like you said, this was 15 years ago when that first comment that you read. You know that I identified it and so it's looked a lot different and we've done a lot of different things. And I think the mistake I made early on was really believing that it required the physical external change in order to be right before I had the internal change. And so a lot of the things I did early on were looking at how do I change all of the external thing so I go more. Maybe if I do these things, my heart will follow, and there's a little bit of truth to that. Certainly Jesus says as much with our treasure, where our treasure is, our hearts will be. So there's a little bit of truth in that. But you know, if I am always just leading with action, eventually I'll get tired, and if it's never flowing out of who I am and both my heart. So you know, kind of the beginning stages where we determined to move to Africa and work for International Justice Mission, I was going to go, you know, use my law degree for good and work within the local justice systems in Kenya, and so we had sold our house, we were ready to go. We planned and very last minute we decided not to go and so we moved, downsized our home in Austin, moved out farther from downtown and I quit my job at the big firm and we went on about a month-long mission trip to a small little island in the Bahamas serving Haitian refugees with our family and kind of came back and I practiced law because that's all I knew and I just kind of began to try to listen and during that time we felt really convicted that we had disobeyed. I got made away and we had flat just disobeyed where he was calling us to go.
Speaker 2:There's a time where we were sitting in church and people we have this on Thanksgiving where people get up and say what they're thankful for and felt the prompting of the Holy Spirit to get up and just express our gratitude for a pastor and his family who meant a lot to us. And I did what I had done many times in my life and I just sat there doing nothing and I kind of kept feeling this right. And at some point pastor gets up to end the service, goes to the microphone and, as he begins to talk, this woman in the back of the church who came in in a wheelchair I think, or on a walker. She stood up and he said I'm sorry I can't walk up there, but I just want to say how grateful we are for you, pastor, and your family, and what you've done. And I had this really strong conviction from the Holy Spirit of Michael I don't need you to do these things. I'm asking you to do something as simple as just saying thank you. I can use an old, crippled woman to do what I'm asking you to do. I can use anybody, but I'm inviting you to be a part of what I'm doing. So that was a really big moment for me to begin to just try to say yes. And so that led me to seminary. That really an idea of why I went through that, and that was really helpful for a lot of reasons. I started to preach at my church through that.
Speaker 2:That then led us on a mission trip to Ethiopia, which was very formative for us, and that was probably one of the bigger moments for us because we came back kind of just really convicted of this idea. I talk a little bit about it in the book of why am I holding on to so much, meaning my savings and all these retirement things for a future that's really uncertain, like I don't know how long I'm going to live after I quit working or retire, or how much I'll need. I just don't know. So I'm guessing of a lot of factors, but why am I holding on to so much for a future that's uncertain, when the need before me was so certain? I mean, where we were was, we walked into a woman's house one time. She had a half a pair of corn for herself and her two children, that was it. And they were all sick, very sick, as you can imagine. And so you just see this deep needs, both physically and spiritually, that existed over there. And so we kind of came back and wrestled for a while I won't say this was easy, but we wrestled for a while to decide to kind of get rid of most of what we had accumulated in order to meet some needs that were over there. And we invited other people on this journey with us. And you know that was probably the most you know substantial quote thing that we did. But it's continued into this journey of trying to say yes when God prompts us to do things that may feel weird or uncomfortable, whether it's, you know, meeting a need of somebody.
Speaker 2:In church I got really tired of when people would give me a gift of something or you know, I would speak and I would have a gift and that, you know, it's like the Holy Spirit just was wanting to push on me, because every time I'd have it I would be walking around and like almost immediately I'd have this prompting to go give it to somebody. I was like, can I not just keep something and go and buy something I don't want to go buy? Must I give it away? This is really exciting. You can cut this in the production if you want. But I had spoken at some college and they gave me a gift card to Amazon for a few hundred dollars I don't know it wasn't a huge amount, but it was a few hundred dollars and I was returning our rental car and the woman who checked me out I just felt this strong, you know, michael just give her what you were given.
Speaker 2:And so, very begrudgingly, I handed her what I had been given and she was like just thank you and just kind of put it in her pocket. And I don't even know, I'm barely even acknowledged to the fact that I had given her anything. And I'm sitting over there waiting for the bus to take me to the terminal. I'm thinking really, like that's what I get, like this is there's no joy in that. She's barely grateful. And here I am, you know, feeling like I'm being super generous, and here runs this girl over from there, not realizing she hadn't realized, kind of what it was, and just basically in tears and gives me this massive hug and thanking me so much for what it was, because of what their particular needs were. I was like, okay, she certainly needed it more than I did. Yeah, but it was. You know, it's kind of that process of wrestling, I think, in these things with God.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that. I really appreciate that you share more of the shortcomings and the trials that you guys have faced since starting this journey, because I think for a lot of us we set the bar so high of okay. Once I set my mind to live exactly like Christ and nothing's going to stop me. You know, as soon as we hit the first hurdle or the first temptation or whatever it might be, then we're just like okay, failed, maybe I'm just not good enough for this life or, you know, maybe I'm just not cut out for this particular you know calling. So I appreciate the fact that you highlighted just different times where you guys, you know you learned God worked through those lessons with you. So I really appreciate that In your book you talk about three different attitudes for a surrendered life, three different attitudes that for Christians who really want to orient their lives towards becoming more like Christ, they can adopt these different attitudes. Could you speak to some of those for us today and how that might be able to help people on their walk with Christ?
Speaker 2:Sure, you know, as much as we want to try to be led by the Holy Spirit and we do want to do that there's all these times we also have to step back and actually take assessment of what we're doing and how it's aligning and we talked about this in the fellowship a bit of who am I being formed into? And I'm formed by the people around, the things I'm reading, consuming and the things I'm doing, and so those all for me in somewhere or another and they put me in places of transformation. So some of these are ideas of how do I work out all of the warnings that we see in scripture about money and all of the encouragements you see about generosity and these examples of lives of generosity we see in scripture. So these are, you know, iterations that I've read from a few different people and so I won't take full credit for these by any means. But I think the idea of living simply and Richard Foster has great writing on this. He actually has a book about simplicity, but also his book, the Celebration of Disciplines, he has a whole chapter on simplicity, and simplicity isn't miserly, it's not a staticism, it's an attitude, I think, of contentment, and oftentimes that reflects itself in having less, because I learned that I really don't need as many things as I need, and so then it also, I think, enables me to enjoy the things that I do have a little bit more, when I am able to get something that's, you know, I can enjoy or that's kind of different than I'm used to. And so it's living simply again, I think, is that heart, posture, attitude, and then we want to work diligently. I mean, I think that we're created to work and work is a really good thing.
Speaker 2:I've been reading about David and scripture and you know, david is presented as a shepherd, really before he's a king, and even as he's a king he's really looked at as the shepherd. I mean, there's this very just naturalness to who he is and work, and I think that too often we separate so much the title. You know well, if I'm king or if I'm pastor, if I'm, you know, these things I have to be. But there's just, there's a very naturalness of just working diligently, connecting us to our spirituality and God in that way, because every job is mundane at some point, whether whether I'm president of the United States or whether I, you know, bag groceries at some point it's like yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:And then the final thing is giving sacrificially. You could say giving generously or giving sacrificially, but I think that in studying scripture, one thing that we always see is that the people who are commended or we see their finances in some way portrayed positively, are always shown as being generous people, and oftentimes sacrificially generous, something that actually costs them more than they thought they could bear, and so I think that that's a lifestyle that we all want to grow into as we live, and it really is. You know, I talked about that example of kind of begrudging generosity, but begrudging generosity in my life has always ended in joyful generosity. So, you know, we see the verse of you know, god loves a cheerful giver. My experience a lot of times is I'm cheerful after the fact, not necessarily before and during the fact. Hey, that's okay, and so I don't think there's a timeline that Paul says God loves a cheerful giver, not like get cheerful and then give.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:Because I think God delights in us. Yeah, because we start to have that joy and we give him thanks and we give him praise.
Speaker 1:And that's kind of that whole.
Speaker 1:2 Corinthians 8 and 9, I think what that's talking about, that's so good and anyway, those are the three things, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, and it's just funny a side note, when you were sharing that story a moment ago with the car rental and giving away the Amazon gift card, I assumed that you were just going to say that she just never acknowledged it and you just kind of went off and kind of like, and later on, like the Holy Spirit was like it wasn't about her, Michael, it was about you and you know, drawing your heart closer to Christ.
Speaker 1:Right Cause that's what I have noticed a lot of times when I give. But what brings me the most joy, obviously, like I'm so thankful, you know, I'm so thankful that I can be a part of someone else's you know story and just helping, you know, be that facilitator of, you know, meeting some needs through Christ. But what I think brings me the most joy is afterwards just feeling like I've shared this moment with Christ and so my heart just feels more connected with His, and that's where the joy comes from for me anyways. It probably looks different for everyone, but that's where I was assuming you were going initially with that.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I think when we give, oftentimes we want to control what we give, and so that can result in frustration, it can result in resentment and you know, I think God has done a lot in freeing me from that by letting me see, you know, like we gave certain things and then you see them use it in certain ways and you're like that's not what I meant for them to do with.
Speaker 2:I think that wasn't the purpose for me giving them money. It was I'm going to do this, but it's it really is that gift is there's joy when we actually truly release it. You know it. Just we free it to that person and if they misuse it, you know, I've heard people say well, you know, we'll be held accountable for that, and I don't think that's very scripturally accurate. Now, we don't want to be wasteful, certainly, and just give it to irresponsible people and organizations that do, but I think too often we use that as an excuse not to give, as opposed to. I think there'll be a lot of grace when we make mistakes that way. Right, right, okay, you know your heart. You're moving towards generosity, not the opposite.
Speaker 1:I can't remember if it's in your book or one of the other books you encourage us to read, but I remember this point in reading. We're not going to get to heaven and say like, oh my goodness, we gave too much. We gave way too much away. But we might have the opposite reaction of why was I holding on to so much? Why didn't I give more?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a quote trusting God There'll be many people in heaven who trusted God too little, but there'll be nobody who trusted God too much. So I mean, I think that's a take off of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very similar.
Speaker 2:If God is trustworthy, then we really can't trust Him too much in this life.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I'm going to pivot us a little bit real quick. So right now I'm looking through a Bible study with just a small group of people and we're also diving into the heart behind our money decisions. And we're also diving into the heart behind our money decisions. And one of the questions that has come up recently that one of the people in the group is kind of struggling with is, even though they are a believer, they have a hard time communicating. You know what the benefits are of being a believer outside of escaping hell. So if I'm a believer, how do I communicate to other people what the benefits are of being a believer outside of that green card right, that get out of jail free card, if you will? And I'm just curious, can you speak to this a bit more about again, just what it reveals to us in our own hearts? If that's the one piece that we're looking to God for, can you speak into that a little bit?
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I mean, I have a couple of different ways I go in that One. In my life it's been, and I don't know that I fully grasp the grace of God in that place. And so I recall it wasn't that long ago, four or five years ago probably, and I was preparing to preach on John, chapter 16. And I was praying through the text, and I was praying to John 17, which is the high priestly prayer afterwards, and the whole passage where I was preaching it was Jesus basically telling the disciples you don't get it, you're not going to get it. And their response is, oh, we get it. And he's like no, you really don't, you're about to abandon me, right. And then he prays and the high priestly prayer he says not one of these whom you've given me have I lost, you know, except Judas. And then the next chapter they go and abandon Jesus and run away from you know all these things, and so, but it wasn't dependent upon them even coming back to Jesus, it was beforehand. He was declaring there's not one of them I have lost.
Speaker 2:And it you know the kind of the grace of God washed over me of yeah, I really am an idiot who thinks I get it but I don't and thinks I'm good. And so I think first it starts with really understanding the grace of God more intimately and spending time there and trying to really say God, I need to understand the grace that I have received, because it's way far, lavishly, beyond anything that any of us, I think, can comprehend. And so then I kind of come to Galatians. I think Galatians 5 and 6 speak to this idea too of just the lavishness of God as Jesus and what he laid down for us. But then I think really about the benefits, if you will, as the fruit of the Spirit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control. I think I missed one. Your Bible literate people who are listening can fill in for me, but those are overflows of who I am and becoming right.
Speaker 1:This isn't.
Speaker 2:I need to go be more loving, I need to go be more kind, I need to go be more gentle and patient. It is as I draw into relationship and intimacy with God. Actually I become somebody who's more loving. I become someone who's more joyful and peaceful and truly become somebody who, even in the midst of horrific circumstances, can experience the presence of God and His peace and His contentment.
Speaker 2:And so I think you know the example of the curmudgeon in church yelling, you know, to make your kids quiet as they age is not the picture of what we become as we mature in Christ. It's really the loving. You know lady in our church who's been there forever and just wants to love on your child, no matter who they are, no matter how loud they are, you know they just overflow this love and joy and kindness and peace. And I think we all want to be content and very few people experience contentment and I think it flows out of knowing who God is and what he does for us in our life, and that overflows into a life of yeah, you know what? I'm content because I have Jesus, and that's what Paul's testimony was Like. I can go through all these things and I'm content because I have Jesus, and so to me I would say that is the benefit. And so when we highlight all the worldly things, success, whatever, I can get those things without God and, quite frankly, when I get there, they're not that satisfying.
Speaker 2:I've spoken this one time. I actually won a national championship in tennis in college at the University of Texas, individual national championship in doubles. And we came back from the national indoors, my partner and I, after having like achieved the pinnacle moment of athleticism for me at that point, and I was like, hey, congratulations, good job, and these are teammates, right, yeah. And then we went and practiced for the next match. I was like that's it, like that's the extent of like the pinnacle, right? Oh, here we go. I guess we're right back at it, we're right back to the grind, and where they seem, you know, there's brief periods of joy, certainly, but they pass like that, and so there's so much more that God has for us.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. I'm thinking in terms of finances and money talk. I think a lot of us tell ourselves this lie of well, if only I had more money, I can be more faithful, more generous. All these things right, no more stress, no more worries. You know, life will be good. If just I had more money. Then, you know, everything else in my life would fall in place.
Speaker 1:And I'm reminded of a client that called me a while back. They'd been working on becoming millionaires for a long time. You know it was decades worth of work trying to get their net worth up to now I'm a millionaire. And he calls me as soon as he gets word from his financial advisor, like he just hit the mark, he just became a millionaire. He's like Courtney, I did it, I'm a millionaire. And I said cool, all right. So tell me what's different about you now that you know what's true about you, now that wasn't true about you yesterday. And literally Michael, without skipping a beat, like he didn't even have to think about it, he said well, now I have more stress because I have more to lose.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Isn't that fascinating. You're used to this, it's not new news, but I just think that was so telling. And it's all about heart posture. Right, we're not going to just magically become more generous people. We're not going to become magically more content because our bank account reaches a certain number. If anything, we might go the opposite direction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's true. My dad has a lot of really good stories because he has counseled people who are very, very, very wealthy Christians even. That's true across the board. The wealth just brings more stress. It brings more trouble, it brings more family trouble. And sure, there are some things you can enjoy that you and I can't, with vacations or whatever, and those are fun, right, I don't want to say that you're going to be miserable on them. Yeah, you'll have fun, but there's an emptiness and there's a desire for more and there's a huge amount of fear Because you do, you have more to lose, you'd think. Well, a billionaire who loses 20% of the stock market they still have $800 million. They're not that worried. Well, they just lost $200 million and that's their mindset. Versus, if I have $10,000 and I lose 20%, I, you know I lost $2,000. That's a decent chunk of change, but not then, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not going to make or break. It's not a huge, you know huge difference, Right, right. So it's interesting, certainly, to think about and start to reorient our hearts to. More money isn't the answer, but more of Christ in our hearts and really just experiencing that outflow of his love in our life. That's truly where true contentment comes from. Yeah, absolutely, as we're wrapping up for today, if someone's listening and the Holy Spirit is just putting it on their heart, like this is what I've been trying to tell you. I want you to start leaning into what Michael and Courtney are talking about. Can you give them one tiny baby step? You know something that they can start today to start drawing themselves closer to Christ?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think that we have to prioritize Christ. I mean it kind of boils down to that If I'm not engaging with God regularly and kind of growing into that person who truly understands what it means to pray continually, then you know that really is my first step, and so I would encourage people. It's not necessarily a financial choice. It's not a choice. It's about prioritizing your relationship with God and that's going to look different for people. I love reading scripture and journaling and things like that. That may not be everyone. I think that's a part of everything, but there's an intimacy of time that needs to a focus time, not just like distracted as in the background with Caleb on the background or something like that. That's not bad, but it's also not necessarily what I'm talking about. So I would just say prioritize time with God.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. We really appreciate you being on as our guest today. Truly truly a treat to have you. So thank you for your time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and for all of our listeners listening, I just pray that God uses this time to really start drawing you closer to Him. Make Christ a priority, just as Michael was saying, carve out some time for Him. If our whole goal in life is to start looking more like Christ, let's act like it. Let's start spending time with Him and getting to know Him and learn more about who he is and what he's about, so that we can start looking more like Him too. Amen, thank you everyone. Thank you for listening. If today's conversation has blessed you, share our podcast with a friend and if you have a money question, email me at Courtney at MarkleyCoachingGroupcom. I'm Courtney Markley and this has been the Heart of Money.