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The Heart of Money
Join financial counselor, Christ follower, and founder of the Center for Financial Discipleship, Courtney Markley as she takes on tough money questions and delivers actionable guidance. Courtney's gentle but straightforward approach creates a safe, nonjudgmental space for people to talk about their money challenges. After coaching for several years, Courtney understands that money stress is usually a symptom of a deeper problem. Her approach to money will expand your understanding of how to succeed financially. You will gain tools needed to improve your money mindset while becoming someone who can have deeper, Christ-centered money discussions. Join Courtney in her mission to change the way we talk about money, one conversation at a time.
The Heart of Money
From the Archives: Reimagining Christian Stewardship with Leo Sabo
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We are excited to bring you new episodes of the Heart of Money podcast this fall! In the meantime, enjoy one of our fan-favorites:
Discover how a life-altering shift in financial perspective can deepen your faith and transform your approach to money. Courtney Markley welcomes Leo Sabo, President of the Christian Stewardship Network, to the Heart of Money podcast, where they explore the intersection of spirituality and finances. Prepare to be inspired by Leo's journey from conventional money management to a life where every dollar is a testament to his relationship with God.
Introduction to the Heart of Money
Speaker 1I'm Courtney Markley , and this is the Heart of Money . Talking about money can be really hard and uncomfortable , but it doesn't need to be . The problem is , we're taught to think about money in terms that are too much like science , with rules and regulations , and not enough like psychology , with emotions and nuance . Join me on my mission to change the way we talk about money , one conversation at a time . Welcome everyone to the Heart of Money podcast . I'm your host , courtney Markley , and joining me today we have Leo Sabo , the president of the Christian Stewardship Network . Welcome , leo .
Speaker 2Thank you , Courtney . It's a pleasure to join you today .
Speaker 1Yes , it's such a pleasure to have you here . I'm really excited . Just for my own personal benefit , I know every time we talk I get enriched , and so I'm excited for what you're going to bring to our audience today . Let's kick off by just telling us a little bit about yourself and how you got into the role that you're currently
Leo's Journey to Financial Freedom
Speaker 1in .
Speaker 2Well , my journey really . I grew up in a Christian home and kind of following all the typical process that you go through as a child , being raised in a Christian home and in a church , and the thing that I always struggled with as I was becoming a teenager and really kind of stepping into my own faith , not just my parents' faith , and it was right after I got married that I really struggled to get intimate with God , to really grow spiritually . I was listening to all the sermons , attending church regularly , even giving . I understood giving from a biblical perspective fairly well , having grown up in the church . But what I didn't know , courtney , is that I was actually trying to do what Matthew 6 , what Jesus says in Matthew 6 , 24 , you cannot do , which is to serve God and mammon . And so I was doing the whole Christian thing . The weekend was you know the Lord , so to speak , and then Monday through Friday , probably Saturday as well , was mine , and I was just kind of doing life in this world as a typical person tries to do , you know , build a career , build a lifestyle , provide for my family , all those things , those things . But I didn't realize is that I was really not committed to the Lord in this one area of my life finances was not committed to the Lord and I ran into all kinds of financial problems because of managing money according to the world's perspective . And in doing so , god made me there , because you know when you , when you manage money on your own , with your own wisdom , you will eventually run out of smartness and end up in some kind of fail state . And so that's what happened with me and I had to surrender to the Lord and say I don't know how to do this . I've messed this up , I've put my family in this terrible situation . Help me .
Speaker 2And God used Christian radio program . Larry Burkett had Money Matters back in the early 90s when I started listening to him matters back in the early 90s , when I started listening to him and God used that to begin to show me a different way and really captured my heart and brought me into a deeper relationship with him . And as I surrendered that and became not just a follower of Christ but a truly committed , everything belongs to God kind of person . Not that I did it well at the beginning , as this has been a long journey , but that started in the early 90s , about three , four years after my wife and I got married and now , 35 years later , I have not only had the opportunity to live this out and see God's blessing and God's favor , but also , over the last 20 plus years , I've been able to minister that into other families and people , friends , and so that's why I'm passionate about it , because it changed my life .
Speaker 2It literally the scripture that says I was blind , and now I see that was the case with me when it came to this area of finances and giving . So I'm super passionate about it because it is a core issue in life . It affects everything . Money is not important to God , but it is a tool that we're to use , and when we use it the wrong way , when we don't use it God's way , it becomes more of a hindrance . And , honestly , the thing that I probably lament the most is that people will not fulfill their purpose in life that God has given them when they're wrapped up around money and they focus on money alone . And that's a tool of the enemy that we try to , at least at the Christian Stewardship Network , try to influence leaders to understand that this is what people are dealing with , and so we want to equip them so that they can teach and disciple their people in this area and help them become free so that they can truly fulfill the purpose and the calling that God's placed on their lives .
Speaker 1Thank you so much for sharing that , leo , and I want to unpack your story a little bit more , if you'll allow . I can imagine some listeners hearing and saying wait , I don't quite understand . Like Leo , you grew up in church . You understood what the Bible said about money . Right , it sounds like you're operating from a financially responsible place according to worldly standards . I could say right , you're shaking your head .
Speaker 1yes , You're operating from this place of all . Right , here's what the Bible says I look good from the outside . Going back to what you said about serving God , you know I'm serving God on Sunday , but Monday through Saturday are for me right , that's for me , and I think that's a similar approach that a lot of people take with their money too . Right , here's your 10% God . 90% is for me , though , right , and so unpack that a bit more for us , because I'm sure some people are saying , wait , I don't understand . Like , if you were
Worldly vs. Godly Money Principles
Speaker 1following these principles , if you grew up in church , then what do you mean when you say you were managing money your way and not God's way ? And how did you start to connect those dots , to fully surrender everything to him ?
Speaker 2Yeah . So when I said that I was doing the Christian thing and you know it was limited because I did not have the full understanding of the God's principles around money I understood giving , because giving is something that most churches do . They do talk about it . Unfortunately , they only talk about the fact that we're to give to God , give to the church , give to God's kingdom , and so it's one aspect of our money and actually it's a smaller part of our money when you think about giving , even from a biblical perspective . The Israelites were asked to tithe and there were several tithes . So if we do the math , at the most that they were asked to give is about 23 and a third percent per year . Okay , if they actually gave all the tithes that the law had asked them to do . However , the other think about it if 23 percent where they were to give , then that means that 77 , nearly 77 percent they got to keep . So it means the bigger portion they were supposed to manage . They were supposed to manage according to God's instructions , and so I was giving , and I think my wife and I were even given above the tithe whenever we were encouraged to do so .
Speaker 2But I was not living by the principles , because no one had ever taught me the principles . So , when you talk about the principle of debt , okay , I had tons of credit card debt . I was living on credit cards . Now I was responsible , my wife and I always paid our bills , but we were living on the ragged edge and adding to our debt , and that's what caused , really , the financial meltdown is that I ended up getting laid off with multiple credit cards , a new car payment and I had just purchased a home three months earlier . So here I go , approaching this level of okay , you've made it , you've got a job , you've got a career that you just started , you're making good money and we were able to manage the payments . You know , it wasn't like we were defaulting , but when the income goes away , then you realize this was a house of cards that was just waiting for a wind to blow , and that's exactly what happened .
Speaker 2And so , going back to your question , had I known the principles of debt , saving , delayed gratification , you know all the things that the scripture and the Proverbs and Jesus talked about , then I would not have taken on all that debt , I would not have lived beyond my means , which basically presumes on tomorrow and on God , and so that's where I failed is that I was following the world's perspective of how to manage money . Hey , if you have the means to pay it every month , why rob yourself of the experience ? Go for it . And that's a worldly principle , it's not a godly principle . And so this is where my education began , as I began to understand the principles and then as I started obeying the principles and applying them . That's when I began to see financial freedom .
Speaker 2The stress went away , the marriage conflict went away , and that's why it made such a big deal to me , because now , all of a sudden , I'm no longer just chasing the dollar and what that was going to do for me , you know the security , the status , all the things that , as a young man , I was trying to achieve . I realized that that was the wrong pursuit , and so that's where God really drew me . It was the fact that money became a God to me . It became the vehicle for me to feel successful , to feel achieved to , you know , to have my own kind of be a self-made man . There's something to that , you know . We are to be responsible , we are to be hardworking and excellent in our job , but when we do all those things for the wrong reason it pushes God out Right . If I do them so that I can feel secure , then I'm not going to depend on God for security . If I do it in order to build the kind of lifestyle that I'm happy with and I want , well , what does the Lord say about that ? Is that his plan ? Or is it my plan ?
Speaker 2Finances are such a clear perspective of where our values lie that that's why I think sometimes pastors and leaders , and even Christians , don't want to talk about it , because it's very revealing . It's very revealing . Larry Burkett used to say it this way show me your checkbook Nowadays it's your bank account , your credit card statements but he would say show me your checkbook and I'll tell you what you really care about and what you value . And it's true . If you add up all your expenses and look at them , you will know exactly where you put your time , where you put your effort , what you care about the most . It's interesting , it's just a very revealing thing , and I think for us as Christians , god will use that , especially that in our culture today , because it is so materialistic and driven to success , especially in the West , that God can use that to open our eyes to the truth , which is that we may not be depending on Him as much as we think we are .
Speaker 1Isn't that a sobering thought ? So tell us . How does this then show up in places like the church ? So that's part of your role now working with the Christian Stewardship Network . It's actually a community of stewardship pastors who come together for fellowship and encouragement to say , hey , what is your church doing that's working , here's what our church is doing . There's this really great back and forth and this building up together . So I'm just curious , as you're guiding pastors into having more money conversations , what does
Helping Pastors Talk About Money
Speaker 1this look like ?
Speaker 2Well , I think the greatest challenge that pastors have is that you know they have to get up every weekend and talk about so many different topics , right , they have to cover the whole counsel of God in scripture , and money is one of those topics that I think pastors feel somewhat ill-equipped to talk about . They think , well , you know , I'm not a financial expert , I'm not a financial planner , or you know , I don't have a financial degree or business degree , so who am I to teach people how to manage their money ? And sometimes pastors themselves struggle to do it well and some who do it well , again they don't feel qualified to really be that expert to talk about it . But in reality , the actual scripture and the Bible that they use to talk about any other topic is the same process or the same approach they need to take when they talk about money . It's not that they need to be a financial expert . You know , finances , especially personal finances , are basic math . It's like third , fourth grade math . It's not difficult , right ? It's basically subtraction , addition , multiplication . Any of us can do that , right , especially adults .
Speaker 2So it's not that , it's the fact that money is emotional as much as it is practical , and of course , it's spiritual , because if we truly believe that everything belongs to God , right , I can ask any Christian on a Sunday morning at the church and say , do you believe that God owns everything ? And they would say , of course , yes , I do . But if you were to look at the average Christian who doesn't tithe , doesn't give regularly , is managing money completely based on their wants , their needs , their desires . That is contradictory to this idea that it all belongs to God . So if it all belongs to God , that means that every decision we make with money is a spiritual decision , or should be so . If it is is a spiritual decision because we are managing God's resources , then the owner should have something to say about his stuff . Right and this is where I was early on in my journey is that I was not asking God on how to spend the other 90% . It was completely on my own . You know decisions , and a lot of that was not even used for needs . It was mostly for wants and desires , and that's what gets us in trouble .
Speaker 2So I think pastors need to understand that people struggle with this because their emotions is wrapped around money . They want to please their spouse or their friends , and so money is a vehicle that we use to express a lot of things that we care about or want to care about . But if we don't continue to understand that this is God's resources and that he has a plan for it , then it leaves us to chase something that will never really truly satisfy us . Because that's the thing that really made me aware is that as I was chasing these things , I was less and less satisfied , which was really strange because I was making more and more money every year . And when I was doing the taxes I would look at the income and I'll think how did I make an extra twenty , thirty thousand dollars this year in comparison to last year ? And yet I'm worse off this year than I was last year . Like this doesn't make any sense .
Speaker 2And the reality is that when we pursue wealth , when we pursue our desires , I think scripture forget where it's at , but it says that , just like hell and the grave are never satisfied , neither is the desire or the eyes of man Meaning whatever we see we want right . We have desires that if they're not guided by the Holy Spirit , if we don't have that intimacy with God that fulfills those deep longings we have , then we will look for them somewhere else . And for me , because I didn't have an intimate relationship with God . I didn't know how to get that . I used money to kind of medicate that deep need that I had , but yet it didn't satisfy and it made me more frustrated because I was working more hours , I was more tired .
Speaker 2You know , our family life began to struggle because I was making more money to provide for my family , supposedly , and yet it actually had a negative effect . And that's why I said money is such a great topic to introduce into your speaking at the church , because you're going to hit a nerve . People will like perk up and say , wait , what ? Yeah , I'm right there . That's where I'm at , right there . How does he know that ? That's what I'm dealing with , because it's so common for all of us , and so it is really up to leadership in churches to not leave this topic uncovered . It needs to be .
Speaker 2And then on the practical side , you know there are a lot of people in our churches that are good with money , who , if you let them know that they can serve people and help them with the practical stuff , they'll be all for it . I've never had a problem serving as a stewardship leader . I never had a problem recruiting volunteers . You just have to put the shingle out and say , hey , we need your help , and they're going to be coming in droves because God has equipped those folks and they just want to know how can I serve ? And they may not be able to teach you the Bible and they may not be able to , you know , do children's ministry or worship , but this is their thing and they really would love to serve in the church and help people become free financially and gain that biblical wisdom on how to manage money .
Speaker 1And that speaks to my heart for sure , because that's where I started . I started well , first I was actually the broke person who showed up to church saying please fix me . But then , after that , then I was the person who said , okay , yeah , I've got my feet out firmly planted on the ground , Now I want to turn around and help the next person .
Speaker 1Right , and that's where it all started . I love your heart for the stewardship ministry and for serving stewardship pastors . Something struck me as you were talking a moment ago and again , probably because it was just holding the mirror up to myself and where I was at one point in my walk . But if you ask the average Christian , you know , do you believe that God owns it all ? They're like well , yeah , of course I'm not going to say no , I know what scripture says . I believe it's Psalm 24 , 1, . Right , the earth is the Lord's and everything in it , the world and all who live in it . So I know this , I know it .
Speaker 1However , that stands in direct conflict to how I actually operate . Right , if we say , the average Christian would agree with that statement , and yet they're only giving about two and a half percent of their income . Right , that's what's considered normal right now . How do we start to bridge that disconnect ? Because you say , yes , I firmly believe in my heart of hearts , and yet there's obviously
Stewardship vs. Generosity in Churches
Speaker 1something that's holding me back because it hasn't actually shown up in my actions yet .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think there's a couple of things that affect that , why people aren't taking those actions , especially because there are two different terms that are used in the church and most of the time pastors use them kind of synonymously but they're not the same thing . So one of them is giving , which churches do talk about . There's giving moments , there's collections , you know every service , all of that but then there's stewardship , and stewardship and generosity are two different things and a lot of churches get that confused . And you know , in the last probably six to seven years , I've noticed that there's been a shift from walking away from stewardship or not using stewardship and using generosity as a replacement . Because the argument was people don't understand what stewardship is . It's an old term , we don't use it anymore . It's barely , you know , shows up in scripture . So why don't we just use generosity ? That's a better word and it sounds more appealing . It sounds more I don't know fun , right .
Speaker 1Yes , like I want to be seen as a generous person . Right , Exactly . That sounds attractive .
Speaker 2Exactly , whereas a steward it's like , you know , it's kind of boring , right . So the reality is , though , that they are two different things , and misunderstanding them can really confuse our people . Here's why Most churches will approach generosity as if we can help our people to give , then God will bless them , because they're faithful to giving , god will bless them , right ? There's promises in the word of God that we can test them in this If we give , he's going to open the windows of heaven , all of that , and then that's what they focus on . So when they talk about giving , though , here's what happens .
Speaker 2Let's say , I'm the typical person in the church who is struggling financially , struggling to make . Do inflation's gone up ? All this stuff's happening to me , and the church is talking about giving , and I'm struggling financially . So when I go to give , I'm really having a hard time doing it because , again , you know , everything costs more . So to carve that 10% out or even more sometimes when the church is doing a fundraiser , that's difficult .
Speaker 2Now , on the other hand , if there's nothing that's teaching me how to manage my money better , nobody's teaching me the dangers of debt , nobody's teaching me how to actually create a budget and stick to it , giving me those specific ways that I can figure out and have wisdom in making my decisions . So I'm not making foolish decisions because I don't have all the knowledge or the information about my finances . And this is where financial coaching and practical financial education from a biblical perspective really does help . But when the church is only doing one side of it , it really frustrates people and they don't know it until it's too late . And here's why Because if I am consistently coming to church and they're doing one capital campaign after another and I'm committing to it because I have to right , I mean God wants me to give , so you know . But at the same time he says , be grudgingly .
Speaker 2Exactly , I saw my question .
Speaker 2But the reality is that if you're not helping me , let's just , logically , let's take God out of this altogether . If you're asking me for something , let's say you and I according to our friends and you come to me and say , hey , leo , I really need help with my car . Would you fix my car ? And I have the ability to do it , so I'll fix your car . Then the next week you're like , hey , I also need this , can you do this ? If it's a one-way conversation , meaning you're asking me for help all the time but you never have the time or the ability to help me , it's a one-sided relationship and you're not even considering that . When you're asking me all these things , well , that's what we do as church leaders . When we consistently ask people to give more but we're not equipping them to be good stewards who can be financially in a position to give more , then what we're doing is really not addressing the real motivation and the way that they can become all that God wants them to be . So it's almost like we're priming the pump , trying to get water out of the well , but the well's running dry and no one is paying attention to that . And so sometimes churches say , well , okay , let's do a program like Financial Peace University or Crown Small Group or Compass , strong or whatever . And the reality is that , yes , those will help in some way . But if you delegate that as just a program , that some people who happen to have messed up their finances a few people which is not true , because it's 70 plus percent of the people who are in this boat If that's how we think about it then the ministry and that program you know about finances it's also looked upon . It's like I don't want to go to that If people know that I'm financially not doing well . Right , if I go to Financial Peace University , people will say he must be in debt and he must need help . And so we even position these programs in a way that's not appealing to people , because they don't want to be called out . It's already shameful enough and they already struggle with the self-worth and the fact that they're not doing well in this area . And so we're not doing enough to educate and to equip people to be givers , because giving is the outflow of a good steward . You're not going to find a good steward who's not a giver , but you will find many people who give but are not good stewards . But eventually they'll stop giving and they'll feel guilt over it . They even embrace this give to get mentality .
Speaker 2This is where the prosperity gospel came in . Is that people have used that to say if you just kind of name it and claim it and you know , test God , put your credit card out there and give this gift , then God's going to bless you . And , first of all , god's not going to be manipulated . Yeah , right , period , god's not going to be manipulated . So we can't do that because that's not going to give us the result that we're hoping for , yeah . And so we are doing this , unfortunately , in the wrong way .
Speaker 2In many churches we're doing it the wrong way and this is why you know there are people out there that God has really opened their eyes to , like myself , you , so many other leaders that we connect with , who do have a theological perspective on what does God want for us in this area .
Speaker 2And there is a balance right , it's not giving everything away , but it's also not living it up and giving a little bit away . It's that balance of really embracing the fact that we are God's stewards . He's going to direct our decisions , but he's also going to take care of us . You know , ever since my wife and I got on a budget and started doing things God's way . Not that we've done it perfectly , but ever since we've done that , we have seen nothing but blessings and peace and harmony in this area of our life , and that's not how it was before .
The Cost of Following Christ
Speaker 2It was a mess before . So it's something that God wants for His people . And again , I grew up in a Christian church all my life . I literally was born in a church not literally , but you know what I mean .
Speaker 1Like the next day . I'm like wait , there's a story there .
Speaker 2I feel like I was born in a church . I grew up in a Pentecostal church in Romania and we went to church like I don't know I felt like six days a week . But my point is , even though I was in church , I listened to thousands of sermons over all that time and yet none of it really was instrumental in teaching me about finances , and so when I stepped out , I was an adult , a young adult trying to manage money and make my own way through life . I had no context of how to do that from a biblical perspective , even though I grew up in the church and that's pretty common , I'm not an anomaly here and perspective , even though I grew up in the church , and that's pretty common .
Speaker 1I'm not an anomaly here and that's a shame . It shouldn't be that way , absolutely . I can second that there's a lot of people listening I'm sure that are shaking their heads saying , yes , leo preach . So tell me , as you're encouraging pastors to step more into this conversation and making those distinctions , I like how you laid those two out , the difference between stewardship conversations and generosity conversations . Both are important , but let's just not use them interchangeably , right , and let's make sure that we are really equipping the people who are coming to church right and not just constantly asking and asking . Our hands are constantly out . Well , one of the things that you have demonstrated and done really well is the idea of being vulnerable and leaning from a place of vulnerability , and not too long ago we were in Fort Lauderdale together with a group of hmm , what was it about ? 120 stewardship pastors ?
Speaker 2Yeah , 130 something .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , all right , 130 . Let's boost that number up a bit , that's right .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1And these were just an amazing group of people from churches all over the US doing really great work for the Lord , and I remember on day one , you stepped up and said wait , let's make sure that our hearts are in the right place , let's make sure that we're coming at this in a way that's God-honoring , and let's examine ourselves first before we ask anything of other people . So let's lean into that a little bit more . Would you be open to sharing what's God been putting on your heart recently ?
Speaker 2Yeah , you know the focus of that message was it was titled the Cost of Stewardship and it's something that Lord has really been impressing on me over the last few months . Is this idea of am I really living the things that I'm teaching others and encouraging others to embrace and live out Meaning ? Am I being a good steward myself ? And the reason I call it the cost of stewardship is that there is a cost to following Christ . I think in a Western mindset and in Western churches we tend to forget that Christianity is supposed to cost something , and it's not that we have to go to church and tithe or we have to go to church and serve . That's not persecution , that is not a real cost . That actually is a blessing to us that we get to do it . I'm talking about looking at the church in the early church , especially some of the apostles Paul , silas , timothy you know all of those and what they had to go through to fulfill the calling that God placed on their lives , which is to spread the gospel in the early church . And you know . You look at what Paul went through , the suffering he went through . He goes , you know , through a list of . You know beatings and shipwreck and all this stuff and I'm thinking , lord , I have not done any of those things , I've not suffered any of those things .
Speaker 2When I think about the cost of being a follower of Christ , I am really convicted that our Christianity has become so comfortable in our culture Today . We are so comfortable because of the things that we have right . I have a home that is heated and cooled . I can keep it exactly the same temperature year round . If I go in my car , I can turn the AC and do the same . I am so comfortable in my life . And there's several things that really just got used to stir my thinking and saying have you become comfortable as a steward ? In other words , you've made the plan , you have a budget , you kind of execute , but is it costing me anything ? Or have I gotten to the point where I've kind of done all the math , I put all the things in place and I'm giving , and I'm giving above the tithe and I feel good about that , but I'm still so comfortable that I wonder if things really got tough or if God really asked me to do something very , very bold and something very sacrificial .
Speaker 2This is what I shared with the group . It's like are we sure we would be able to meet that challenge , that we would actually do that , you know , could we if we were persecuted in some way ? Would we stand the test ? And I'm really concerned about it . I'm concerned about it especially for this group of stewardship leaders , because as stewards , we and as human beings we tend to kind of program everything . We want to get everything to a state where we can manage it and control it . So , whether it's our budget , whether it's our health , whether it's our family , whatever it is , we'll create systems to make it , make us be able to say we're doing this right .
Speaker 2And so I was challenged to look at my own personal budget and say how much of this is me still and how much of it do I actually filter through God and say , god , am I doing this right ? And again , it's not guilt , because God doesn't operate that way and I don't have guilt or shame or anything like that . But the Holy Spirit can be so gentle but yet so direct , you know , and he brings conviction . So I didn't feel shamed or in any way that God was upset , but felt like he was saying to me there's so much more that I have for you and I don't want you to relax and just think I've arrived and you know I'm doing better than the average or whatever . However we might consider ourselves or measure ourselves to the standard that's around us , the people and community that we have , that's never a good thing . And so God was just challenging me and I felt like that was a word that I wanted to challenge our group with , to say it's one thing to teach others , it's another to live it . And this is what Paul said . How did he say it ? He said we shouldn't all want to be teachers because we will be judged more harshly or whatever . And that's true . I'm always cautious and aware to the fact that every time I share something , especially in a public forum , from the pulpit and it's related to God's word that if I'm not living up to that , I'm literally bringing a judgment of my own self , because I'm saying this is the truth , and yet if I don't follow it and I think that's why sometimes pastors don't talk about money they're convicted themselves and they're like I'm not doing this . So all that to say , it's really important that not only do we live up to that standard , but that we also call people to do the same .
Speaker 2I am really concerned , courtney , that the church has become very comfortable . We take care of things , we have the funding to do it , especially in some of the larger churches . And you know , have we adopted a Christianity that's comfortable , where we can have all the trappings of the world and also have Jesus ? I don't know that we can . I just can't find it in Scripture , because Jesus said that if you love the world , the love of the Father is not in you . Right that you cannot love the world and also love God . And so how do we live in a world where we don't embrace these things ? And yet you know , we know we have comfort , we know we have blessings from God . How do we enjoy those things without letting them become our comforter and our ? You know our purpose and our security , and I think you have to consistently go back to the Lord and just humble yourself and realize that .
Speaker 2You know it's the fear of the Lord that brings wisdom , and we need to have that fear and reverence for God and submit ourselves to Him ongoing , not become comfortable and create processes and systems so we can say we're good . We don't need to check in with God . We've checked off every box . He's got to be pleased with us . I don't know if he is . We need to make sure that we stay intimate with Him and let Him guide us , and I think some of us will find that God may ask us to do more than we've been willing to do , but that's a good thing . If God stirs me to do something , that's His work , not mine . I know in the end it's going to bless the Kingdom , but it'll also bless me . It'll take me to a level of intimacy with God that I truly want and need . So that was really my desire , for that talk is to challenge all of us to never get comfortable , you know , to continue to pursue the Lord with everything we've got .
Speaker 1Thank you so much for sharing that with our audience . I love your heart and everything that you're sharing , which is why I wanted you to bring it here today , so I could hear you . I need to hear it at least twice , and it's true . And I'm wondering , as we're leaning in here , how
Prioritizing Relationship with God Over Works
Speaker 1can we make sure that we're staying spiritually healthy , even if , at least to some degree , we look financially healthy , because you can be financially healthy but completely miss the heart of God behind everything that you're doing , right , yeah , so how do you make sure that you are prioritizing the spiritual over the material ?
Speaker 2I think it's the one thing that we're all not very good at , which is to pray without ceasing and to live by faith , connected to the Holy Spirit , every day , throughout the day . You know , as a Christian , I've been a Christian , I would say , most of my life . Of course , I made an official decision to become a Christian at 14 , but , like I said , I grew up in the church . So I think of myself as someone that's never really walked away from the faith , never struggled with not believing in God . But yet I can tell you that , especially early in my journey because of you know , I'm 54 years old , almost 55 .
Speaker 2So going back to the 70s and 80s , you know there was a lot of the preaching that was more lacking grace . It was all about do this , do that and God is pleased with you . So you know that wasn't the best way to communicate the gospel . But now we're more like understand grace . Our pastor just released a book called Grace Period , meaning we're all saved by grace and there's nothing else . And I love the message of grace . But I think there's a balance between works and grace . Right Grace is what brings us into relationship with Christ . It's what keeps us and empowers us to live the Christian walk , but yet it says that we are to produce fruit . So I think we have to expect our own fruit . It's easy how we can do it in other people's lives . It's interesting to me that we can , you know , we can point to somebody and say well , that person is not mature , they're not living according to God's principles or whatever . But it's harder for us to put ourselves under that microscope , and I think we need to .
Speaker 2And what I've been convicted , especially over the last few months , is that I do a lot of things because I'm a doer . I like to do things well , I like to do them with excellence , and that's something that God has created me to do . It's God's gift and what he's put inside of me . But people like me and a lot of the folks that are in the stewardship ministry are like me . We're doers , right . We like to have plans , we like to create systems and all of that . And so it's easy to become programmatic , even in your time with God and your relationship with God , and that's something I fight all the time . I want to say a five-minute prayer and then get to work , when I should be spending two hours in prayer and doing 10 minutes worth of work , and I flip it around many times because I think in my own strength I can get it done , or I feel responsible , I got to get this done . You know , there's a deadline , there's people that need this , and all of that is true .
Speaker 2But when we do things out of our own strength , well , we fall short of God's best , I think , and I don't think that we're as effective in ministry obviously no matter . Even if we're doing things for God and it's truth that we're sharing when the Holy Spirit really is part of that process , then the scripture says that God's word does not return void . That's true , but if the Holy Spirit's not involved in bringing people , then people won't encounter God . Right , I can be a good speaker and I can convince people to feel a certain way , but if the Holy Spirit's not part of it , it's not going to be a lasting experience . It's an emotional experience . People might even say I'm giving my life to God and the next day it's like they're lost because they never really experienced the power of God . So I think we need to go and focus on staying connected to the Holy Spirit and do things from what he's telling us to do , not from what we've learned we should do .
Speaker 2That's a pretty big distinction for me because , again , I can do stuff . I've done stuff . I can , you know , I can go back and look at the things that I've accomplished . But yet if I rely on those things , then I'm just doing a lot of stuff .
Speaker 2And I'm concerned about the scripture that God said you know that when these people came and said did we not do all these things for you , did we not prophesy in your name and all of this ? And he said I never knew you and I'm not saying that people that are saved would ever hear that from the Lord but I do think some of us will stand before the you know , the judgment seat of Christ and we'll miss out on a lot of things that he had for us because we didn't follow His instructions . We followed our own wisdom and I am convicted , courtney , that in this next season or phase of my life I want to do more of what God says than more of the things that I think I should do . That's really the bottom line . Being a steward does have inclinations of responsibility and things that we're supposed to do , but the owner is the one that really guides and directs . You know , we need to check in with the owner more often . That's really the key . We just need to check in with the owner more often .
Speaker 1Thank you , leo . I like your distinction of drawing out again the difference between grace and truth and the importance of works . Even though we're not saved by our works , works are still important . Kind of a good test that we can use on ourselves is you know , are we producing fruit ? Are we producing fruit for God's kingdom ? And the interesting thing I started thinking about this the other day , kind of going on a rabbit trail the interesting thing about trees they work so hard their whole lives to produce fruit that they'll never enjoy .
Speaker 2That's true , right , that's true .
Speaker 1They don't ever make fruit for themselves . They're not like man . I'm toiling so hard . I've been working my whole life . You know , this apple here took a year to get this apple . Like . They're not going to enjoy it , they're not going to eat it . That's right . It's for everyone around them , right . And so I say this to say I think our works is just an outward evidence of the inward reality and that we know that we're drawing closer to God and that connection is growing deeper and we're staying spiritually healthy when we're producing more fruit for the community around us and for God's kingdom .
Speaker 2Yeah , and it's also , you know , when you think about our work , that we do for the Lord . Again , grace is what saves us , and the works are not going to make God love us more . The works that we do is really it's God's invitation to us to do what he told Adam and Eve to do , which is , to , you know , subdue the earth , to have dominion over it and to make you know God's kingdom be everything he'd meant to be , the blessing he meant it to be , where love is expressed . People are not left to , you know , to waste on their own , that they're helped , that they're ministered to . And so you're right . I mean , the analogy of the tree is so good , because when we do good works because of our love for God , not because we want Him to love us but because of our love for God .
Speaker 2When we get that equation correctly , then it does bless His kingdom , it does bless His children , it does invite people who are lost into the kingdom and at the end of the day , you know , there's a scripture that says that everything was made for Him , through Him , for Him , from Him , through him , for him . Think about the vision that John received in the Revelation , where he's looking and seeing this scene in the throne room and there's , you know , these elders and the seraphim flying around with eyes all over and they're all saying holy , holy , holy . And I think some of us will think of that and say God , that just goes on and on and on and on . How boring is that going to get Right ? But what we don't understand is that when we really truly and I don't know that anyone ever has but when we truly will embrace him for who he is and understand who he is and see that dimension of how amazing God is deep inside of us , is that longing to be with him . We were separated from the garden until Him . We were separated from the garden until now . We were separated from God . And when we are reunited with God in every way , I think he is the source of all that we want and need and desire . It's hard to do that in a body , but it's pertinent to us to pursue that , because the only thing that's really going to satisfy , the only thing that's really going to meet that deep need that we have , is to have that intimacy with Him , and the result of that is that we will then know what God wants and we will please Him in that way .
Speaker 2I'm reading a book right now called the All of God by John Bevere , and it's rocking my world in so many ways because it's this idea of not being comfortable with God which is a theme of what God has been doing in my life is are you really understanding our relationship and have you gotten comfortable with our relationship ? And this whole idea of fearing God , which is a good thing it sounds bad , but of course , the definition of fear , especially when we are asked to fear God , it's about having reverence , about having this intimate desire for God , and then that shapes everything else that we do , every work that we do , the choices we make , the way we spend our money , the way we love our family , is this desire to , just , you know , pursue God with everything , and that's so easily lost for us because we think , well , I'm saved , so I better get to work . I got to get , yes , true , but we can't put the work ahead of our pursuit of God . When we pursue God , then in that intimacy , then all the things that I said , as far as you know , you serve God by faith , through the Holy Spirit , and we do good works . We can do that really well when we're pursuing God first , and then all those things will be an outflow of that , whereas if we just try to do things , we're going to run at the end of our own energy and passion and ability and we're going to get frustrated .
Speaker 2We're going to look to God and say what's going on here ? I'm doing all this for you and God's like , yes , you're doing it for me , but you don't pursue me . You think that doing works for me will somehow make our relationship okay , and it's like I don't need you to do works , I can do everything you're doing and more . I just want you . That's the amazing thing about our God is that everything he's done , everything he's doing , is about drawing us closer to him , everything
Seeking Financial Freedom Through Jesus
Speaker 2else he can do .
Speaker 2And it's hard for me to grasp that , because I think , yeah , but you give me all these things to do and I have responsibilities and deadlines and all this stuff , and it's a hard balance .
Speaker 2But I think we need to focus more on spending time with the Lord and working out of that place of overflow than to do things . Look into God and say am I pleasing you ? You know , are you pleased with the things that I'm doing , rather than God , I love you . Therefore , I'm going to get to work and I know you're with me while I'm doing this work . So it is a shift in thinking . It's not new . I have not discovered something the scripture hasn't already revealed to thousands of generations , but it is something that the Lord just been working on me to just learn how not to be , just to be a doer , but to be someone who is grafted into this relationship and really getting everything from the Lord that he wants , and then going to work from that . And it's hard , I'm going to be honest . It's very hard for me because I want to get up in the morning and get to work .
Speaker 1So and just do oh , that's so good . It was reminding me . I think it was Martin Luther Don't quote me on that , but I think it was Martin Luther who said I have so much work to do , I can't get on without starting my day in three hours of prayer . Yeah , yeah , right , that's what I'm reminded of as you're talking . I was like I have so much work to do , that means I have to pray that much more .
Speaker 2That's right yeah .
Speaker 1Which is so counterintuitive .
Speaker 2Unfortunately , most of us skip that second part of that statement .
Speaker 1Yeah , so it's so counterintuitive . I have so much work to do . Sorry , god , like I can't pray today . Yeah , I'll talk to you tomorrow .
Speaker 2It's interesting to me because I struggle with this , like you know . I get up this morning to have some time , because I get up with my wife , I make her coffee before she leaves for work and then I try to spend some time with the Lord , and there's days where I just cannot seem to focus , to do . As soon as I feel that it's like , I try , I try to press in , I'm distracted , I you know , and I just want to end it and go to work , because then I feel like , okay , well , I'm doing something Right , whereas being in the presence of God doesn't seem to be doing anything for me . I can't seem to connect with him , and I think it's . We have to struggle through those things Right , those moments . We need to just block everything out and stay there until we make that connection with God , because we cannot , like you said , what Martin Luther said is like I got so much to do that if I go on without hearing his voice , without talking with him about this .
Speaker 2And prayer is not just giving God a list , it's more listening than talking . And so , yeah , it's hard and I find it difficult sometimes . Sometimes I do have to spend a couple hours just making a connection with God . And that's not his fault , that's my fault . I'm distracted by the world and things that are on my agenda and on my brain to do , and especially in our world today , with all the distractions we have social media and news and all those things . It's hard , you know . You want to stay informed , but that much information just seems to crowd out the voice of God and it's a hard balance . But we need to make it a priority and I'm speaking specifically to me . I need to make it a priority .
Speaker 1I'm with you , I'm right there with you . Piece , right here , I think we're starting to really hone in on what potentially is some of the hardest struggles with people when it comes to surrendering their money to God . Because , as you mentioned earlier , it's easy for us to find our security and money , our worth and money , our satisfaction and money , all of these things , because it's the quick route . By doing it this way , I can basically bypass the relational piece of spending time with God and really cultivating that relationship and making it happen . Right it's oh , I don't need the messiness of a relationship . I can just take the shortcut over here and let me get it over here , because this is tangible , this is something I can see , I can count Basically , I can count it , I can watch it grow and I can say , all right , my security is growing , my worth is growing , my satisfaction is growing . We know these things are actually very counterintuitive to how God created us , so that's not truly typically the case , but it's what we tell ourselves , right , yeah .
Speaker 2I think it's also , you know , and this is why I've been convicted lately about this is because , as a steward , I can justify the fact that I am doing things based on what God's taught me to do and I'm being responsible . So I am being a good steward . But you know , there's a part of the parable of the talents that we don't normally talk about . We talk about , you know , you have the three stewards who each were given an amount and then the two were able to double it and the one kind of left it to the side and then gave it to the master back . And the thing that we miss is that the first two stewards went to work because they had a good relationship with the master , they were motivated because they knew they had not just a responsibility , but they actually because it says that when they came and gave an account of what they've done , it says master , look , you gave me two talents and I've made two more . It wasn't like , master , you gave me two and I was only . You know , they were very , it seems to me anyway , maybe I'm reading too much into it , but it seems like they were very proud of the fact that they did this , that they pleased the master by doubling you know what he had given them , and that speaks to relationship , right , they had a motivation to profit the master . Whereas the third one said I knew you were a hard man , so he talked about the negative things of how he saw the master . I knew you were a man who reads where he doesn't sow and all this stuff . And what really happens is that what we get a privy into is that this guy didn't love the master . He had a very cold relationship with him . It was a master-slave relationship and he felt like he didn't honor the master . He didn't honor the fact that he was in the house of the master and that he was entrusted with things . And I think that's where what you just said reminds me of that , because it's like I can be a good steward and I can even make a profit , but if I don't have a relationship with a master , it's all for nothing and I can very easily walk away from my love and my motivation to serve God for the right reason and do it as a way to say when I stand before you , I'm going to be justified because of all the things that I've done and God is saying , no , even your good works are like filthy rags . There's nothing you're going to do to earn your way to this level , because you and I are not the same in that way .
Speaker 2But yet he extends this beautiful relationship and , you know , intimate relationship with us , and so there is a danger in us not honoring the relationship and just being busy and checking off the boxes . Instead of keeping our first love , it's about Him . The rest of it I mean there's people that get saved and then die the next moment , right Like the thief on the cross that you didn't have any chance to do when he works . And God still extended the same love and relationship to him , and so it doesn't .
Speaker 2You know , I say that tongue in cheek it doesn't matter what we do , it does . But if we do it for the wrong reason or if we do it as a way to say I'm doing it so that God can let me into heaven or be able to stand before God and say , see , I've done all these things , no , we cannot justify ourselves before God . There's nothing we can do to do that , so we can't get it backwards , I guess is what I'm saying . And it's important that we don't sacrifice the relationship with the works that we do , because the works will never match what's expected of us . And what's expected of us is just that we love God and please Him .
Speaker 1As you were sharing , I thought of Paul's words where he said if I give all I have to the poor but do not have love , I gain nothing .
Speaker 2Right , yeah , and that's a love for God first and foremost and then a love for others , right ? The greatest two commandments is love God , love others . If we don't truly love God and then love ourselves , then we can't love others . Because it says love others as you love yourself . Right , yeah , it's . You know , no matter what your background is , especially if you're raised in a kind of a legalistic household or church community , especially if you're raised in a kind of a legalistic household or church community , it's very easy to become very work-driven and feel obligation , almost guilt , to not give , to not do what you're supposed to do .
Speaker 2And the heart of God is not that he would put us and make us obligated to love him . Hey , I've done this for you , so you better do this for me . That's not God's heart . But yet , you know , depending on our experience and our upbringing and all of that , our religious experience we can become very driven by this idea of I'm going to do things for God so I can stand before God and I can be justified , I'll show him that I did everything he told me to do , and we miss out on the greatest thing , which is this love relationship that he's offered . And so it is a balance .
Speaker 2But it's clear . Scripture tells us how to do it , so it's not difficult in that sense . We just need to have a way to consistently get re-centered and I think having that intimacy with God does that and then doing works out of that relationship rather than just doing works to please God , Because I want people to be good stewards . But what I don't want is to be good stewards who stand before God and say I've checked every box . You know , I've checked off every box . I deserve to be here . You know I've done it all the way you told me to , but yet they missed out on a real intimate relationship with God . It's easy , and I'm concerned , that the church today especially , is leaning there where we're just going to do stuff for God and miss out on the real relationship he's offering .
Speaker 1As I say , on the day when we meet God and we're standing at that judgment seat , I don't think the question he's going to ask is Leo , did you stick to your budget ?
Speaker 2Yeah , no , I don't think he's going to ask that .
Speaker 1I don't think he's going to ask that , right ? No , did you love me ? Did you love my people ?
Speaker 2Right .
Speaker 1So let's wrap us up for today , leo . You know you shared so many great things with us , not only for things to think about for our church and for our stewardship leaders , but how we ourselves are showing up and how are we prioritizing our relationship with God . I'm curious , you know , if people listen to this conversation and they walk away with one thing today , one thing . What would you want that one thing to be ?
Speaker 2Well , I don't want them to lose sight of the fact that stewardship and generosity are part of what God has created us to do and to be involved in , so I don't want to diminish that in any way . It is important the works that God has given us to do . It says that before the foundation of the world he actually created these good works , that we would walk in them . So God's prepared those things for us , and I do believe in eternal rewards . I believe in storing up treasure in heaven where it cannot be destroyed or eaten by moth , but we don't want to put that as the measuring stick of our success as followers of Jesus . We can't ignore it , but we also can't put it as a measuring stick . So I think the most important thing that I would want people to walk away with is to truly just commit their lives to the Lord and to look at their finances and other areas of their lives , but certainly their finances , and say am I honoring God with this ? Am I doing it God's way or am I doing it my way ? Because I think it really does matter . Like I said earlier , money does tend to make its way in every area of our life matter . Like I said earlier , money does tend to make its way in every area of our life . It's in our marriages , it's the way we raise our children . We make decisions about money every single day , and when we don't have God's heart and God's perspective on that , then we're making decisions that could draw us deeper into a relationship with the world and that will bring dissatisfaction , all kinds of negative consequences , because really what we're doing is we're taking a substitute , we're believing what the spirit of mammon says , which is hey , if you have all these things , then your life will be complete , then you'll be happy , then you'll have joy , then you'll have fulfillment . And the reality is that money is just a tool that we are to use and , yes , some of it . In fact , scripture tells us that some of it , most of it , a large part of it , is to use for our own good and for the good of others . Most of it is not supposed to be given away .
Speaker 2I know that a lot of people think the church thinks we're supposed to give it all away . That's not what God says , but we can't ignore that either . We do have to make the priority of funding God's kingdom . So it's love God and then obey His commandments . Ultimately , that's all we've got , that's all we need , but it's to love God first and then , as we understand and learn God's principles , we look at our life . We expect the fruit that's coming from our life and the Holy Spirit's going to be faithful to let us know how we're doing . That's the beauty of God . Is like he doesn't hide , he doesn't pretend . He tells us and he does it in a way that doesn't shame us , that brings us into a deeper loving relationship with him and then allows us to line up with his principles so that we can experience even now in this world Because I do believe , I believe in salvation and I believe in eternal life .
Speaker 2But we are not saved so that we can get to heaven . That's one of the benefits . We're saved , that we would do good work so that he would be pleased and people would meet the Lord and be welcome into his family . I don't have this perspective . If I got saved , thank God , I'm just going to tough it out for the next 20 years and then I'm going to go home . Yeah , I want to go home .
Speaker 2I can't wait to be in person to see Jesus , but in the meantime he's got a purpose for me and I want to meet every single one of his works that he's set aside for me to do . I want to do well . I want to please him because he has done so much for me and will continue to do that , and so that's what I would want people to walk away with is to just pursue the Lord with all their heart and really look at their life and answer the question am I truly following the Lord or am I just saying that I am ? And that's something that we need to continue to ask ourselves , and I'm going to talk about salvation . If you've given your life to the Lord , I believe the Lord's done that work and there's nothing else you need to do . I'm talking about are you truly committed to a life that he's called you to , or have you just said yes and now you're living your life your own way ? Are you doing what I was trying to do ? Serve two gods . Please God , on the weekend , have your life on your own terms , your own lifestyle , based on what you want for your life .
Speaker 2There's a problem with that that we need to not ignore . If our life doesn't match up with what God is telling us to do , we cannot fool ourselves and think well , god's going to forgive us . Yes , but what are we missing out on ? Because every single part of the body of Christ is needed . I listened to a message this weekend from one of our pastors , and it doesn't matter what part of the body is , every single one is needed . Paul talked about this and he said that when one is hurting , the whole body's hurting .
Speaker 2So I think about Christians who are not in love with God to the degree they should be and they're not living their lives and doing the works that God's called them to do , and it's hurting the church . Right , we look at giving . What percentage of Christians are giving ? You named it . You said two and a half percent is what the average Christian gives , and recently you know some studies we found that it's about 11% of Christians actually tithe . That's a lot of Christians that don't you know .
Speaker 2No , it's not about tithe , is not about the church . It's about you and God . It's about putting God first in your life and having a tangible way to say yes , it all came from the Lord . So I don't you know if you're listening to this and you're hung up on the tithe thing , okay , don't call it a tithe , call it whatever you want , but put God first , truly put God first , and you know , 1% is not a sacrifice for you , 3% is not a sacrifice for you . So you find out what is a sacrifice for you , start there and then let the Lord lead you . But ultimately it's about putting God first . I just want people to be in love with Jesus . I want them to be committed to their families and to being purposeful about how they're living their lives , and I don't want money to get in the way of that , and I think it's a foolish thing to pursue money at your own peril when it's never going to bring you the satisfaction and the fulfillment you're looking for . That you'll only find that in Jesus .
Speaker 1That's right . I often share with my clients that financial freedom is not a number , it is a person . You will only get it through Jesus .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's so true , that's so true .
Speaker 1Yeah , thank you , leo , so much . Hey , before we wrap up , tell us if
Information About Christian Stewardship Network
Speaker 1someone's listening and they are either a pastor at a church or they're interested in potentially becoming a stewardship leader at their church , how can they get in touch with you ?
Speaker 2Well , I would say first , maybe , just connect with us through our website and some of the content that we produce . We have a lot of content that we produce both for church leaders and for pastors . We have regular webinars that we do , and the purpose of all of that is to equip the pastor so that they know not only what is stewardship and generosity , but how does that roll out ? How does that look like in your church ? What would you do ? How would you do it and what's the process of implementing something like that in your discipleship of your people ? So I would say , start with a website and then from there , we also have a membership . We've created a membership for church leaders so that if they want to really connect with other leaders who are doing this in their own churches some have been doing it for 20 , 30 years , others have just started or are just thinking about starting . So they're from every kind of walk of life , so to speak , and different church sizes , different areas of the country , and so our desire at CSN is to connect these leaders and help them as they begin to build this ministry within their own church . And it looks differently , and every church looks a little bit different . It's not about finding a model and plugging it into your church . More than likely you'll have to just learn what it is .
Speaker 2The way you would do that is we have a workshop called the Stewardship Impact Workshop .
Speaker 2We have that digitally and a membership that you can watch at your own pace , or you can go to one of our one-day events and really understand the theology of generosity and stewardship , because , again , like I said , there are two different things .
Speaker 2But once a pastor understands those things and how they impact every believer , the response we get from pastors is like I've been a pastor for 20 , 30 years , I've never heard this before and we're not teaching anything that's not scriptural , but yet I think it's a teaching that's very much needed for a pastor to catch a vision for what stewardship is , and so that's what I would recommend . Maybe start there and then just reach out to me . You can reach me at leo , at christianstoryshipnetworkcom , and just let me know how I can serve you . Asa , pastor , I can connect you with people that are in your area . Of course , we have a lot of resources to provide for you as well as you begin this journey , but we'd love to serve you . We know it's a need in the church and if this spoke to you , if this is something that you feel would be of benefit to your congregation , just reach out . We would love to help you .
Speaker 1Thank you so much , leo , and thank you everyone for listening with us today . I pray that this conversation has blessed you and encouraged you and also given you a healthy challenge to pursue God more in your daily life . There's a quote I'm thinking of that I'll leave you with . Essentially , it says let us not gorge ourselves on worldly possessions and survive the bare minimum on our faith . Let's do the opposite .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's good . Thank you , Courtney .
Speaker 1Thank you everyone . Thank you for listening . If today's conversation has blessed you , share our podcast with a friend and if you have a money question , email me at Courtney at markleycoachinggroupcom . I'm Courtney Markley and this has been the Heart of Money .