Hi everybody. And welcome back to Blame It On Marketing with your favorite marketers, Emma and Ruta. And today we're going to be discussing ageism. It's probably going to be ageism and sexism combined. Let's be real. For women, I was about to say drinks. We don't even have drinks. It's too early. It's 11.40 on a Tuesday. midday we can have a cocktail pause. today we're gonna be discussing ageism and marketing. Something, well, I have no doubt we're also gonna talk about ageism and sexism as well at some point. Because you've got four women. feel like ageism is part of sexism for women, if that makes sense, like, they're together. Yeah. So without further ado, I'm gonna let our fabulous duo introduce themselves and it is a bit of a family affair today. So I don't know who wants to go first, but I'll leave it up to you. say Justine goes first because age before beauty as always can't see. Hi everyone, I'm Justine. I am the Marketing Director at the L Factor Limited. We are a leadership advisory consultancy run by my lovely mother, Lena, who is an award winning business mentor. Hi everybody, my name's Lena. I am known as a professional, not any just, not any just anybody just a professional nosy parker. I love nosing around, learning about people. I'm a business mentor by trade and I just love what I'm doing and I'm actually delighted to be here today with these two fabulous ladies. Thank you so much for having me. Yay. Thank you for having us. intros we've heard so far and it's been a hundred plus episodes, so well done guys, you've nailed it. Obviously, we want to get into the topic of ageism, um touch of sexism, but before we do that, we do have to have your confessions. So whether it's marketing or like a work confession for you, let us know something that you've fucked up in your career and that... of change how you saw things or change how you did things after that. going to give you a confession that made me a leader. Early on when I was starting my business I said yes to everything because I thought you know it's work, it's income, you know I took on clients that were not aligned, their scope was not clear, I also sometimes underpriced things because I wanted so much to get the project and I wanted to prove myself. I thought it's you know on the long term, but actually on the short term, I found it actually broke me. I was exhausted, I was resentful, and also the work, dare I say it, wasn't really the best work. It's not something I enjoyed, it wasn't just me at all. I spoke to a really good advisor. Her name begins with J, her surname begins with L. And she said, well, why are you doing it? The reason why you set up the company was to do something that you enjoyed and help and support the clients that you can support, et cetera. And that moment changed. changed my life completely. I started treating clarity about deliverables. I don't start anything without a problem, you know, what the project was about, success matrix, decision ownerships, and I'd rather lose the work than win the wrong work. And I'm a lot happier now, you know, not burnt out. I'm doing something I love. And when you're doing something you love, it's not work at all, I think. it. Wise, wise words. There were going to be a lot of people listening going, my god, that's me. Okay, so mysterious JL, tell us your confession. god, spotlight! Okay, I think I'm going to take you guys back to not baby Justine, not old Justine, so medium Justine, who first started out in marketing and is a self-taught marketer. Now, I think that we're all really familiar with working with startups, right? So you understand what I mean when I say growth mindset. I did not have that at time. I transitioned from two corporate jobs and it just was very, everything was new to me because I had built my own portfolio, just freelancing. And by freelancing back then, it was asking family and friends, do you have marketing related work? Sign me up, I'm your girl. Like, let's do something together because I'm building my portfolio. And I think at that time, without me realising because when you're starting out, you start making a lot of mistakes, right? So when I kind of transitioned from that to my first in-house marketing role, I made so many mistakes, I'm not sure how I kept that job. I'm very thankful to my colleagues from back then. But because this kind of built up over time, I kind of started having what I didn't know back then as imposter syndrome, right? So I had a huge kind of chip on my shoulder. I felt like every everywhere I turned when mistakes left, right and center. And it just kind of leads you to creating a really negative mindset, right? And it's so hard to get out of, especially if you don't talk to someone about it. And I'm really, really lucky. I had a few people to talk to, obviously my mom. being one of my best friends and such. I don't think you were mentoring at that time were you mum? But I just kept on, I was so annoying, I kept on complaining to her. like, things aren't going my way, I'm really fed up of this. Like, what am I doing that's so wrong? Do I need to go back to uni? Do I need to get a degree in marketing for it to work out? No, you do not need a degree guys, come on. You've got YouTube, you've got Google, you've even got AI now, which is questionable. So. I think all those mistakes that kept on adding up made me feel like I was fucking it up, right? I was just thinking, is this the right career for me? But when you feel as though you're chasing something that you actually really enjoy when you kind of get onto the project and things, you kind of forget about it, So I think one thing I learned from it is be really careful with who you ask advice from. Everyone has an opinion, right? But not everyone... has been where you want to go. And when you're starting off, it can be so easy to get carried away having this conversation, having those dreams, and just kind of seeking advice. So that's my first suggestion. My second suggestion from all that is think about... I think it's more thinking about not just how you communicate but how you receive communication, whether that's feedback, that's insight. And there's a really, really good book, I think it's called Radical Candor by Kim Scott. That is an awesome book, I really recommend anyone to read it, reread it, because I think that it really helps you stop showing up as someone fluffy. and start showing up as someone who you have that expertise, you just need to be aware of how you're coming across to others. That's what I learned from my fuck up. I love that. There's some very deep personal growth going on here, ladies. So like we said at the top of this, we've talked about sexism quite a lot on the podcast, but I actually, know, and Ruta said it as well, but sexism and ageism do go hand in hand. But we obviously want to focus on the kind of like ageist element of this conversation as much as we can. And the reason we kind of want to talk about it is because, you know, as marketers, it's something that we have all kind of experienced. So first of all, I just want to open the floor to hearing about your experiences, obviously, Lena, you're not a marketer, but I'm sure as all people have maybe experienced some ageism. So I just want to open the floor to hear kind of your experiences to start with and maybe a bit about what that was like for you when it happened. So I want to play it out in two specific ways in two different scenarios which I was in the room as. So the first one was a very, let's not use the word old, I'm going to use the word mature marketeer and they're in the room and they're treated as though they're out of touch. you know, especially with platform tools, you know, people assume they can't learn, can't teach an old dog new tricks, and that you won't get it. But the truth of the matter is that they've seen cycles like this before, and the decisions made are sometimes having consequences. And all of these perspectives are gold nuggets, I think. They're really useful for when a startup, scale-up company goes wrong. On the other hand, end of the spectrum with young marketeers, they get boxed in into being too tactical. So they're being treated like they're just there to pose, edit, schedule, chase trends, and they can't think commercially or lead stakeholders. Again, I have met some of the sharpest strategic minds in their 20s. And there's just, you know, all they need is the room and sponsorship to grow and really be themselves and not be patronized as such. I've also, you know, in one scenario where we were in a conference and then a rather senior mature person came in and I think I remembered one very outspoken youngish marketeer. He was a nerd techie sort of guy and he says they're not really digital and I think what he was putting was that they're a bit old etc but I would rather and then I sort of went about and said I asked a lot of questions to that senior guy and then when the another scenario when a very youngish person came along I also ask a lot of questions. So what I wanted to do was age does not predict capabilities. You should always be curious about the person, the background. They could be, I don't know, as young as 16 and may have a really, really sharp perspective on something that could target your audience, especially with marketeers. It's all about your audience as such. And when you have the other end of the spectrum, they could have some perspective on how you target more mature audience and how you go about it. This does not happen just in UK. It's an international thing. And I think it's a global phenomena. So I just think rather than looking at a person and seeing how old or how young they are, be curious about the person and find out more about them, which is why I'm so thrilled that you two ladies are doing something called Blame It On Marketing because it actually brings out a lot of these age old problems that shouldn't be there in the first place. Yeah, Justine, I'm interested as well from your perspective being the kind of maybe the marketer on the receiving end of some of the stuff that Lena was talking about. What that what that's been like, obviously, Ruta as well, we can jump into. I'm sure we've got a story or two. But yeah, Justine, how's it impacted you? Um, this is really funny. So I wrote down a few notes to what I wanted to talk about. And then I realised that actually there was something really obvious that my notes didn't address, which I want to talk about. Um, I think that ages in... There's also on top of ageism as a layer, there's also cultural nuances and I think that a lot of cultural nuances for example and I'm Chinese, I'm originally from Hong Kong so what I've seen with ageism there is very hierarchical, it's very top-down but also there are other cultures as well where ageism plays a huge factor on for example your decision making etc. So that's one thing I want to point out. The other thing I want to point out kind of splits into two things so for both online and for offline marketing. So for online marketing, I work with a lot of B2B SaaS companies and I have been a part of teams where they've had a very flat hierarchy and everyone feels that they can, for example, pitch in with an idea and such. I think that where ageism kind of undermines someone in that kind of specific work culture is when, for example, there's a top-down leadership. And because there's a top-down leadership, you know, the senior leadership team, for example, they've made the course, then it kind of trickles through to the deliverer, the people who deliver it, who often have a lot more insight. But because of ageism and because of hierarchy, those ideas are never really going to be heard. Right. So you've got that. And I think as a marketer on receiving it, that often means that unless you're able to kind of. I don't want to say think in a bigger picture, but unless you're able to pivot your mindset and think about, OK, this is just a workplace structure. This is not a me problem. This is just an internal system that's happening. So who should I go to if I've got those ideas? A lot of the time, you'll find that you won't get shut down, but you will be heard. You just need to work a little harder for that. And then I think, finally, for an offline point, I think at events, for example, I don't tend to be very title-focused so I won't walk in the room and be like, Hi, I'm a marketing director. You know? I'll think, Here's my title, give me the respect I deserve. You know? I think that ageism there also has a play because you'll notice especially in events where it's very... shall I say male dominated because I only now over the past two to three years I've seen more women at events right but I think that in some events people can undermine you especially in marketing where you've got a lot of young leaders because maybe you look really young for your age or maybe similar to me you don't throw your title at someone because more to life to that and what I found from my personal experience because I've had so much of those, maybe it's my baby face I don't know, but I've learnt that yes you can feel offended or as I've learnt the hard way you can use that as an opportunity, find out more about them, find out, ask questions about their journey and then you kind of build this weird rapport from the you're a marketing director or to, I remember earlier on in my career when I was in that position, let me help you, let me sponsor you, like what can I do to support you and it just kind of is a great switch of the button there but it takes a lot of work and lot of thick skin. Yeah, Ruta, what about for you? wherever you... Because you were a director of marketing quite young. I feel like I've always been too young for my job for the most part, like ever since I was a marketing manager. I think I was marketing director at 26, which like... is young but it was a startup so like things move at different paces right and i was and i knew i was good at my job but at every point as well like i think it took me like two years to get over this i was like it's just a fluke like it's not me it's just a fluke you know that this this happened and i don't feel that way anymore it's been five years since but yeah i felt that and luckily i feel like i definitely wasn't judge for my age at Clear Review and Emma and I worked together, like it was completely fine. But then leaving and going into consultancy, it's never been like said out loud, but there's definitely like business conversations that I have with what are usually 40 plus male founders where they're like, I don't like you telling me that. I have the wrong plan, not that I'm saying that in those words, like judging what they have planned or the strategy that they've put together. To a point where I've been called emotional on a phone call before. like, no guys, I'm not emotional. You've just created a plan out of thin air. That's never going to happen. You know, like, so yeah, I've always felt too young for my job. So I'm waiting to feel too old for my job. Maybe that's... Maybe that's going to be a nicer experience, but I don't know. It could go either way. works well either way. And I think, you your point there about the type of person that's in front of you, I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's like, also maybe because we are all women on this conversation, as part of this conversation, like we're probably all quite conscientious and also different cultures and different backgrounds. We're all probably quite conscientious about the way that we present ourselves. And certainly I think the older you get, the more, the... I don't know if you're more aware or if you give less of a shit, I don't know. But I've stopped softening the delivery of things. You know, I very much in my early career, when I was climbing the ladder, would have softened my approach. So I would never have done what you were talking about, Ruta. I would never have gone into a meeting and been like, this plan, you know, and been really direct. I would have avoided that. Whereas now I am really direct. And I see that as part of like, well, If you don't want the directness, you don't want to work with me. Now that does mean that I have opened myself up to ageism and sexism and all the other isms probably. But I also am at the point where I'm like, well, we can't really work together if that's your attitude. And if you judge me by looks or whatever else you judge someone on, then I probably don't want to work with you anyway. This probably isn't going to work out. But again, I think that is a benefit of aging that you get to that point where you're like, I'm not interested in this anymore, but it still plays out. mean, there are still businesses that I have knowledge of that will hire in an older male person because the female that's in the role is seen to be probably not old enough. to like have the experience of this older man. And that is usually kind of the dynamic that we see in marketing, which I think is a real shame because I think, Lena, as you said, know, some of the people that I've known be the most strategic are sometimes the most dynamic, young, forward-thinking people. Yeah, I find that really difficult. So yeah, I'm interested in your guys' perspective of this sort of like, there is this sort of two ends of the spectrum. And I sort of consider myself now sort of sitting in the middle because I'm like in my late thirties. No, well, babe, that's the SPF in it. It's the SPF, you know? Yeah, Yeah, we don't we don't fuck about when it comes to the sun. But, you know, people could people could perceive me as younger maybe until they talk to me. And then they're like, no, she's an old bitch. laughter But I think I'm interested in everyone's perspective on that because like I say I feel like I'm sitting maybe a little bit more in the middle now. And so I experience things a lot differently to the way that I did once. So yeah, what do you guys feel like is going on there if you're at either end of the kind of scale? Because there's a lot of frustration, right? back to different I think that when you want a healthy marketing team or a healthy company you should have a cross generational learning on purpose so with the older people slightly mature people you pair them with young people so that they learn more about platform literacy in new formats and with the younger people you pair them with talented mature stakeholders management, commercial thinking narrative so that they can have that gravitas of moving on. This is not about, this is not charity, it's about performance, it's better for your company and also ageism is not a one directional thing, it's actually a rigid problem because On the older end, you can get sidelined for innovations, you stop being invited to future conversations, and this is not good for the business. It's, you know, because you lose judgment, patterns, and tech changes. People don't. And strategy is too human, it's incentives and it's trade offs, etc. But also on the young end, you can get trapped in execution and never get the strategic reps. Then six years later, leaders come along, they say, they haven't shown any strategic thinking. And you've never given them the opportunity to do that because you know, they may have a voice and etc. to practice it. And it's just wrong, whether it's within marketing or within the whole organization. And that's why I've always preached that even at board level, we should have a different perspective. We should have talent. You know, it's more about the performance base, the talent, the perspective, whether they're female, whether they're LGBTQ +, whether they're ethnic minority, whether they're older, younger, etc. We should have all of them. around the table because don't forget and I think marketeers you would understand this better your audience is these sort of people they could be older younger LGBTQ plus different gender different ethnic minority etc if you have that dream team you'll have the right solutions for your target audience wouldn't you agree girls incompetence is not age-based. You can be incompetent at any age and we've all seen it, right? Like, it's not a young or an old man game, you know? Yeah. Put it a teacher's yeah. So yeah, I completely agree and I think... from my experience, there's a lot to learn from each other. now again, I'm an older marketer. like, I will have conversations with people that are early in their career and they'll tell me things and I'm like, my God, I have no idea that this exists. Like, but I'm still seen as like a technical marketer, but there's always new things, right? Like there's always things to be learning. Do you think that... It's especially bad in marketing versus other departments or do we think that everyone suffers with this? Mmm. it's everyone, personally. I think it's at C-suite. I think it's a team basis, especially on board. I hate to say this, board, it's been running 20 years like this. So why should we change, et cetera? I think it's something that needs to be addressed and needs to look into. However, the... the good thing is that a lot of startup and scale up with a younger vibe, etc. are encompassing this. They're open to a more mature board member or as well as a young board member. They're more understanding of the commercial environment that is now quite tough and actually getting a different perspective to ensure that the company grow. But maybe in some sense it's a tad bit worse for marketeers because you you're the go-to person, you're the people in the front sort of like knowing, yes you're the conqueror, you're the one who's of like hunting down all these sort of things. It may feel you're getting the blunt of it a little bit more than the rest of the organization. Justine, what do you reckon? I'm so proud of my mom, you guys. That's what I was thinking, too. um see your face, you were just, while she was talking you like, yeah. Yeah. I think that there are a couple of things here. I think it's definitely everywhere. I think that we're louder about it in marketing because we know how to approach hard topics like this because we know how to market people. So therefore we, know, talking about challenges like this is our specialty, whereas in other functions, it's easier to... brush things under the carpet. there's a lot of that, right? I think that a lot of ages in, if I kind of step outside of it, having been on the receiving end a lot of it in my career, I've been in marketing eight years now. And I remember a lot of things where, this is really funny, and it's a very personal story, but. If you ask me my age at an event, I will tell you in a very Benedict Cumberbatch way that I am somewhere over 18. Why? Because number one, if I was a man, would you be asking me my age or would you be asking me about my experiences? Number two, it's quite funny if someone persistently asks me my age, which does happen, then I will give them a random number every time. And it's amusing to see if someone else says that age, I've lost track of it now because you know, there's a lot. But it's quite interesting, right? So I don't know if this only reflects on a gender specific theme. And anyway, back to the question. I think that in marketing, especially because what I've learned in my first year of marketing, can it still be applied? No, because we're talking about pre 2010s here and you know, That's why I think ageism in marketing is quite strong because as elder millennials, like we might have a few playbooks up our sleeves, but that's changed. And I think that the problem is that because we're very boxed in, so for example, a recruiter might see a fan of years of experience, then it'll be up to us to drive that conversation and be like, Yes, and every time the head of Instagram changes something, we have pivoted. So rather than marketers, I call myself the pivoter because, you know, algorithms change, platforms changed, Twitter has changed. There are so many changes in marketing all the time. And I think that only adds fuel to ageism. But I think that what we can control is our approach to ageism in that the more we talk about it the more aware people can be and hopefully that is the start of the conversations that need to be had. Yeah, I agree. think I've also I will hold my hands up here as being someone who has been guilty, especially early on in my career of being frustrated at older colleagues for not understanding technology in particular and not really necessarily realizing that I could benefit from their wisdom in other areas. Like I've absolutely been that person. So like for anybody listening going, yeah, but they're really annoying because they don't understand how to turn the printer on. What is a printer? Only on a scale. or they can't use the fax machine. That was actually something that used to happen a lot. And I have been that person and now I am on the side of the experience is the thing that matters. The experience like does that per is that person still working on the tools? Has that person got a company to exit? Have they have do they write marketing strategies? Do they understand how to align business strategies with marketing strategies? And that is the sort of stuff that I look for when it comes to the colleagues that I enjoy and work with the best. Like the people that I tend to find more frustrating now is I'm probably on the other end where I'm like, they don't know, they're really annoying. You know? people Google things? like people that like do things just for the sake of doing things and you're like... You know you're like, did you put two brain cells to this because you probably wouldn't have done this this way? You know like... Hmm... Is it? No... I... that pragmatic. I don't even think I'm talking about pragmatism here, I'm just talking about like, I want to do my job well, therefore how do I do my job well? And doing a thing just because the thing has been done and you think you should just keep doing it for me isn't that answer, but maybe I'm too judgy, I don't know. oh Here's two letters. AI. No one thinks anymore. Everyone's copy paste. Okay, what about your brand IP? What about the things you're feeding it? Anyway, I digress, but that just inspired me to, you know, throw in AI because that's why I un-intervaled myself to be a speaker because to get people to think. We can't have people who do not work with AI. share their playbooks on AI. mean, marketing discourse already has enough gaps guys, come on. love that. When it comes to handling someone being ageist, so obviously there's two sides to this right, there's someone being ageist to you personally and then there's you witnessing it, so how do you tackle that, how do you handle it? Well, first things first, you need to remember you have a brand name. So don't attack the person's character, you know, unless you find out, you know, what's it all about. So have certain standards that you can go in. I know my daughter said, I'm not, you know, patience is not my virtue, but I'd like to go in for a clean, calm. and a specific way of going around it. firstly, clarify with the person, know, can you say what you mean by that? You know, just clarify with them, you know, are you questioning experience, capability or fit for the work, you know, just get a better understanding of why they said that. Also, think about the outcome you want, you know, what results do we need? What sort of skills are required? know, why and what about are you going with this sort of thinking? But also more importantly, my daughter is really good at this setting boundaries, you know. Happy to debate about the ideas, but I'm not going to debate with someone's value based on age, etc. Set a ring fence on this and then Go about it, you know. If it's subtle, then you can go lighter and then, you know, curious about the data they're using for assumptions. But if it's something repeated and it's impacting somebody else, then you've got to escalate it professionally, somewhere, someone, you know, address it. One thing, remember always to do, document it. On this day, et cetera, this was being done. on this day, et cetera, this has been done. So you have a proof of where it was going, et cetera, et You don't want to, I know that a lot of higher level people would think, it's another headache, et cetera, et cetera. And it could be damaging. But think about it, it could be damaging to the business and also fairness and performance. You're impacting a lot of things. And I know when it's, you know, in the heat of the moment, people say a lot of things, et cetera, et which, and me guilty as charge, sometimes they don't mean. So I think sometimes you need to sort of sit on it, sleep on it, but always document it so you can go back to it then have a different view by the time you've looked at it properly. wise words. Don't do what I do which is ritual humiliation. Yep, that's also my favourite. You My- I've got two colleagues who I have sometimes worked with and they- every time I do anything they're like, my god, what did you say? you oh Wow Not over that point I think this is something I'm personally working on as well so I don't feel like I know enough to go into the depths of it as I would want to but I'm responding not reacting because it's so easy to get all fired up and like say hurtful things and you know I just don't want that to come back to you right so I think it's like the whole mindset of responding not reacting if it's being done to me I will probably take a step back and think about okay what is it that I need from this person so I start thinking objectively right that's kind of one way that I kind of start thinking about boundaries then I'll be like, okay, I need that from this person. Can I delegate this to someone else? Or do I have to do it myself? If I have to do it myself, then I'll probably start talking like a robot and I start using corporate language, right? Then that way, at the very least, I'm kind of putting aside my own emotions away from it. And I'm thinking... Okay, especially it's so easy to screenshot things now, right? And start ranting about on social media. It's quite scary. And I just think, okay, you know what? I don't want that to fall back on me. I'll just think, okay, this is what I need. Can you do it? If not, okay. But just be aware of the language that you're using, which I think is so hard to do when you're, when you've got all those emotions kind of adding up layer by layer. whether you're in the direct recipient of whoever's being anxious towards you. think so that's like if you're working with someone, right? If you're at an event and someone is anxious towards you, just walk away. Just literally walk away with conversation. You do not owe them anything and it's a lot better for your personal brand. And so if you feel too awkward to just walk away, which I know I have done. Excuse yourself and say, I need a little I need a very strong drink You know looks like my drink is needing a refill even though you're holding a very full drink You know there are ways that you can kind of excuse yourself from it. You don't need to Be there just because it's an event and be on the receiving side of things So it's just kind of knowing when to step away think a lot of the time it's really hard because I'm sure most of the ages I'm with all experienced it's not overt, it's not like you're too young to be doing that like no one says that usually so it's a lot of undertones and a lot of like little comments and little actions and they kind of all add up to this thing but it's then really hard to talk to that person about it because obviously they're gonna most likely deny if you do confront them about it because they didn't actually say anything specific that you could say it is that so I think it's it is really hard and a lot of us I think will end up going into the like let me Noooo, combat result! Her turn to freeze. chew through the wifi, no imagine. Nah. gosh. no! Should we back? Yeah. I will maybe carry on some of what she was saying because I kind of get maybe, I'm not going to take away her point, but yeah, lot of it is microaggression, isn't it? um And are we back? Hello? Yay! Sorry, he didn't chew through the wifi, just my cable disconnected. You continue. No, no, continue because I was just saying a lot of what you were saying is micro. You were talking about microaggression. Yeah. it is microaggression and a lot of it is microaggression in way that you can't really say like, oh, you're being aegis to me. So we'll go into this, let me prove myself mode. But I think just if you can be very conscious if you are doing that, because there is a chance that, you know. not everyone likes a juicy peach and there is nothing you can do to prove yourself to that person potentially. So find avenues and other people that can support you rather than spending a lot of time trying to prove yourself to this person that's probably already, if they're ageist they're already at a weird bias anyway, that's probably quite unconscious. So yeah, I wouldn't spend personally too much energy on trying to like... prove myself to them. Try to have a conversation obviously, be gentle, see how it goes, like dip your toe in but if they're just like, I've got no idea what you're talking about then just let it think with some younger audience, they probably find it very difficult because they're full of passion, they really want to do well, they've done, they've gone over and above beyond, et cetera. And to have someone sort of slap them like that, it's not, it's really, really hard to sort of view it sort of, you know, taken aback, et cetera. But I... I think Justine was very good in the sense that when things do happen she would like to talk about it because sometimes over certain elements she would usually go and talk to them privately and see if things can be sorted out with a certain language etc. I think that helps um and if that really doesn't help then... there is nothing more you can sort of do about it and like you rightly put it, just move on as such. There will always be some set in mind as such. Would you agree, Justine? sorry. I'll quickly add on to that and say that just for context, I am very confrontational. I've done a few confrontations in my time and I have a very structured approach to it. So it will depend on how many instances this has happened. I would also think about... whether or not this is someone that you need to work with, if you do not need to work with them, then I would not bother wasting your time and efforts and emotional energy on that person because it can be, it can really add up, So I'm just putting this out there because I know not everyone is confrontational. But if you're not confrontational, I would suggest you to speak to a trusted person about this. because ideally not your colleagues because you don't really know who taught this right and ideally it's someone neutral so just think about who you can talk to if you can't talk to someone find a way to get it out of your system whether that's journaling whether that's just writing it down burning that paper you know just find your way of dealing with it As Emma says, wait 24 hours before you send that email. Yeah, agree, seriously. I do have a very British approach I think actually sometimes to dealing with the negative things which is no I'm not writing a letter or standing in a queue but that's where you know when I was saying about rich you humiliation I don't mean actually humiliating somebody but if somebody says something off and I've noticed they say things off quite a lot I will start to use what they say back against them because I'm a terrible person so I do I will if some, and then that is, it's not good behavior, but I do like to, so say for example, one of the classic ones I've had is I had a group of male colleagues once, they were moaning about having to do childcare for their wives and they'd been moaning about it and they were moaning and moaning and moaning lots. I know about having to do childcare and it just kept coming up in the subject and I just, know, in my head I was like, well, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna like have a. clap back at you for your wives sake and I just said to them I was like god you guys are really making me want to take my contraceptive pill and they were all like really like my god I can't believe you just said that out loud and I was like do you now see how much of a bunch of dicks you're being like these are your children and so I do think I'm not saying always but I'm saying sometimes there is a time and a place that I'm very confrontational Justine I usually have to, especially if it's for someone else, I am usually very defensive of other people and I do have to be held back. So if there is a fight, I'm on the front line. Ruta's Ruta's always holding me back going stop, don't. but also I do get defensive over other people, so it's much easier for me to fight for someone else than for me. So yeah, I get that. Yeah, so, I'm I'm, there is sometimes a time and a place for it. Um, uh, but, also is in the context of the, sorry. Like, it depends on the topic and like what's being said as well. absolutely. But yeah, there are, I have done this quite a few times and I like to think it's made them afterwards. I have had a couple of comments where it's generally men involved who have been like, wow, you really made me stop and think. And I was like, yes, good. it. That's progress. Do you guys have any tips that we can share with how to be confrontational? mean, I think everyone kind of develops their own style, right? I have like a three step rule for my confrontations. I've always had, right, which is the first time you say something, you get a pass. You get one go, you might be having a bad day, you get a pass. The second time, I am very likely to do the polite thing and maybe take someone to the side or, you know, do the kind of like diplomatic thing. what I, the way I will frame it is always, this is how you met, you said that and that's how it made me feel. I will always go for the feelings, which doesn't work with everybody. And then the third, because I feel like even though that's a really vulnerable moment and it might upset you to say that to somebody, ultimately someone might not realize that they've said something that's gonna make you feel that way because they just don't. And then the third step is basically the sort of like, you're either gonna get the, I'm gonna clap back and there's gonna be a very public joke made at your expense. Or if it's that bad, I'm going to remove, because I am confrontational, I will remove myself from the situation and I will just go straight to whoever's in charge and get it done, get it dealt with and make it very clear to that person. So I kind of... recognize that I'm confrontational and take myself out of it because otherwise I potentially make a scene. And I think that, and some people find that really difficult. I find that really difficult to take myself away from those scenarios, but I have learned over time that causing a scene is not good for anybody. Yeah. like that approach. But you have to also be confident in what you're about to do because don't go for something and then sort of like, ooh, what if this happens and everything like that? No, just, you it's wrong. You got to it out. Yeah. I have a very strong drive for injustice. So if the injustice is happening, and like I say, there's been three incidents, I'm like, okay, we're going. I like that. I have a similar but different-ish approach. So for me, it kind of depends on how high up the priority list this is. is it based on a live project that needs to get done? Right? Or is it like something that I can just remove myself from? So if it's a live project, then I don't really... I kind of get... into a really weird frame when I'm about to confront something. So I really, I kind of overthink a lot of things. think, how would this person receive it? What should I say so that I can kind of be mindful about what I'm about to share with them? Like, and is this something that maybe they can learn from as well? So someone else doesn't have to feel the way I'm feeling, right? Because there's a lot of big feelings there. So I would kind of think about that. And then I would think, okay, I'm just the type to kind of avoid public humiliation. would kind of drag them to one side and be like, we're talking. This is when we're talking and this is what we're talking about. they also have some time to prepare as well, right? Because I feel as though sometimes it's a reaction thing, sometimes it's too reactive. So that kind of helps to re-fence it. And then I would kind of have a... It's what I learned in the Radical Kindle book as well, like you kind of have like a retrospective if it's really bothering you, so at least the other person feels so as well, and that way if you're still having to work with that person on a team, you will have an understanding of where you're both coming from and hopefully find a way to move forward. If you're unable to do a retrospective with just the two of you, you might want to consider having a mediator, especially if things are too heated. Sometimes a mediator will be able to help you ring-fence everything and put a timer on it. Other than that, I would say that the next thing is be really mindful of your language while you're confronting that person because it's also a personal branding thing. I'm not saying it in a shallow vanity way, but in marketing, it's a really small world, right? So... you want to make sure that you've done everything on your side to confront it in a healthy manner and to kind of move forward so that it doesn't affect your reputation as well. Everything is online these days so I'd also be very aware of what you're putting in email, comms or texts as well and just kind of think about the medium that you're using so that it doesn't bite back to you because Sometimes you're doing the right thing, but other people might not see it as such. Yeah, very good advice. strategy guys. You do have to know the person, not quite well but just... be around them enough to like be able to observe them. And I call it the therapist strategy. And it's where basically you go into a casual catch up with them and you, you know, you ask them how they are, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you're like, Oh, you know, yeah, okay. Like I've, I've noticed maybe something's been off lately. You know, like you like, you tell them what's happening, but then you get them to self reflect. And it's something in insights is called like bad day behavior. So I like to use that a lot. It's like, yeah when I'm stressed out I like get super like I don't know bossy or whatever and you have that conversation and you try to get them to like reflect back and again depends on who the person is that you're doing this with because some people really don't appreciate the the therapy chat not that you have to call it that obviously but you do have to be close enough to be able to like tell different you know, sides of them. So that is something I've used and it's a very non-confrontational way of doing it, which is how I like it. And I do feel like it's quite effective given that you have fairly good rapport with someone. But again, would you be having that combo with someone? Anyway, it's something to try. Ooh, I like that. very good, very wise words. Well ladies, I'm afraid we're coming to the end of this conversation. I know, I know. And also I've got a client harassing me because I was meant to be in a meeting apparently 10 minutes ago. So it's all good. But before we go, very quickly, I just want to see if you've got any marketing gossip for us. So something you either love or hate that is happening right now. I'll go first. Not everything needs to be AI powered guys, come on. I'm just going to throw this out there. I'm in B2B SaaS, okay? I am seeing AI powered this, AI powered that. So if you're going to put anything with the AI powered label, I want you to be thinking about how ethical your data sets are. I want you to think about the context that it's for and I want you to consider, does it need to be AI powered? If not. Let's move on. Yep, I couldn't agree more. I've got a lot, so I'm going to make it fast. So what I love, I love that marketeers are becoming more braver. They're becoming more, you know, trying out new things, new avenues, etc. I find that more brands are moving from noise to a point of view, to have a certain point of view and really stick to it, etc. Because at the end of the day, the audience want clarity and not constant, you know, content, it's a contact fit saw. And I think marketeers are building trust, which is a long-term game. It's not a short-term fix. What I'm not loving is the obsession of looking busy online, chasing trends that do not match the brand, confusing reach with impact, a million sort of impression with no trust, and it's just digital confetti in that sort of sense. I agree with Justine. AI can be useful. It helps speed up the boring bits and opens time for you to be more creative. But I also find in a lot of social channels that people use AI too much and they sound robotic. you know, Tom sounds like David and David sounds like blah, blah. And you know using AI is supposed to help get things started or go a little bit deeper but it doesn't make it louder so I think marketeers doesn't need more content it needs more courage and better judgment just like you two ladies. That's a good way to end. shush. Hahaha We're not ending this anymore, right guys? I'm talk about. More to come. Can I have a very burning last point? I really love Reddit right now guys. It's like the only place to be authentic and you're doing it wrong if you're pretending to be a part of the community but secretly you're a rep of a company. Be transparent, have that honesty. and start having interesting convo's with people and start, you know, tackling their challenges. It's much better way to build your brand and start understanding your customer more. Can I agree with you Justine very quickly, let me go to your last point. Just because I have worked in HR marketing for like the last five years and only since I've joined Reddit, do I finally fucking understand what is wrong for these people. That is literally, I have unlocked the secret. Lenna, over to you. My last point was it's been a pleasure joining Blame It On Marketeers. Marketing is something a lot of companies when economy goes bad, the first thing they cut and that's the wrong thing to do. Marketing is supposed to help you accelerate and also show your brand when the economy is not going well. Now 2026 January I'm with these two fantastic ladies on blame it on market here 2027 I wish to be back and I'm sure they're going to be on TEDx on Forbes and I'm going to be sort of like yes in 2026 I predicted that in 2027 these ladies rock it Manifesting it. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. platform, women supporting women. Absolutely. absolutely. Thank you so much both. It's been an awesome conversation and a topic that we haven't covered. If you want to see more from Justine and Lena, their links will be in the description. Go follow them on LinkedIn, go check out what they're doing. And yeah, we'll see you in the next episode.