{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.956,"endTime":4.877,"body":"Hi everyone, and welcome back to Blame It on Marketing with Emma and Ruta."},{"startTime":4.877,"endTime":11.419,"body":"And today we are gonna talk about going after a new segment and whether it's actually"},{"startTime":4.877,"endTime":11.419,"body":"possible or not."},{"startTime":11.485,"endTime":16.01,"body":"And we are joined by the awesome Anastasia who yeah, introduce yourself to everyone."},{"startTime":16.96,"endTime":20.224,"body":"Hi, yeah, thank you for having me on the show."},{"startTime":20.224,"endTime":23.647,"body":"I'm Anastasia, I'm the founder of B2B Practitioners."},{"startTime":23.647,"endTime":33.916,"body":"We are a boutique go to market advisory for tech companies, B2B focused tech companies,"},{"startTime":23.647,"endTime":33.916,"body":"mainly working with series A and B."},{"startTime":34.539,"endTime":42.959,"body":"before that I was on the venture capital side for quite some time working for Project A"},{"startTime":34.539,"endTime":42.959,"body":"Ventures as head of marketing."},{"startTime":42.959,"endTime":50.505,"body":"I led the growth marketing team at X Central in ERP system that is funded by Sequoia"},{"startTime":42.959,"endTime":50.505,"body":"Capital."},{"startTime":50.505,"endTime":58.777,"body":"and yeah, before that a lot of different stations in startups and scale-ups that had also"},{"startTime":50.505,"endTime":58.777,"body":"a bunch of exits."},{"startTime":58.777,"endTime":62.656,"body":"to major corporates and yeah happy to be here."},{"startTime":63.191,"endTime":63.821,"body":"lovely to have you."},{"startTime":63.821,"endTime":72.687,"body":"Someone very much more reflective than us once told us that because we work with like"},{"startTime":63.821,"endTime":72.687,"body":"seeds series A, Series B, they're like, you're just masochistic, and we were like, we"},{"startTime":72.687,"endTime":74.088,"body":"never thought about it that way."},{"startTime":74.088,"endTime":75.919,"body":"So welcome to the club, Anastasia."},{"startTime":75.919,"endTime":78.791,"body":"Um, welcome to the masochism club."},{"startTime":78.791,"endTime":86.375,"body":"as normal, we would love to hear your marketing confessions or what's something that you"},{"startTime":78.791,"endTime":86.375,"body":"fucked up royally that you want to get off your chest and share with us."},{"startTime":86.831,"endTime":88.572,"body":"Do we have to do this?"},{"startTime":90.274,"endTime":108.139,"body":"well I once changed the lead scoring in HubSpot and I accidentally pushed it on yeah older"},{"startTime":90.274,"endTime":108.139,"body":"contacts as well so it fucked up the whole kind of MQL SQL stages quite a bit."},{"startTime":108.139,"endTime":110.208,"body":"So yeah that was"},{"startTime":110.208,"endTime":117.374,"body":"My confession that was n not good, but yeah, at least you could revert it back, but it was"},{"startTime":110.208,"endTime":117.374,"body":"a bit confusing for everyone."},{"startTime":117.374,"endTime":121.368,"body":"In the moment it's the panic, isn't it, of like no"},{"startTime":122.787,"endTime":123.185,"body":"yes."},{"startTime":123.185,"endTime":125.196,"body":"of the love HubSpot."},{"startTime":125.396,"endTime":131.193,"body":"You can revert stuff, but also like it's not like you're just like, click the previous"},{"startTime":125.396,"endTime":131.193,"body":"version."},{"startTime":131.193,"endTime":139.163,"body":"Like you have to do a whole thing, which which I understand why some people are scared of"},{"startTime":131.193,"endTime":139.163,"body":"it and want Salesforce, because Salesforce is a whole other, you know, management system"},{"startTime":139.163,"endTime":140.063,"body":"for reverting to things."},{"startTime":140.063,"endTime":141.456,"body":"But anyway, I like that one."},{"startTime":141.456,"endTime":143.37,"body":"I don't think we've had a lead score confession before."},{"startTime":143.37,"endTime":144.988,"body":"I think this is a first."},{"startTime":145.148,"endTime":146.269,"body":"Very good."},{"startTime":146.469,"endTime":147.55,"body":"Very good."},{"startTime":149.214,"endTime":154.206,"body":"but also I think it is a good one because I think it's su it's such a common thing that"},{"startTime":149.214,"endTime":154.206,"body":"we're all working on."},{"startTime":154.206,"endTime":157.717,"body":"So I think, you know, also they have changed the lead scoring in HubSpot, how you set it"},{"startTime":154.206,"endTime":157.717,"body":"up."},{"startTime":157.717,"endTime":160.802,"body":"It's very different these wonder I wonder if we could still do that."},{"startTime":160.802,"endTime":162.683,"body":"Maybe I'll try, who knows?"},{"startTime":163.323,"endTime":165.523,"body":"not with my own data as well, with someone else's."},{"startTime":165.611,"endTime":171.214,"body":"The reason we wanted to talk about this subject, obviously, Anastasia, you're a"},{"startTime":165.611,"endTime":171.214,"body":"go-to-market genius."},{"startTime":171.214,"endTime":175.076,"body":"and this is a conversation that happens a lot, especially in startup land."},{"startTime":175.076,"endTime":181.669,"body":"and especially when someone gets a new funding round, I think the initial thought is let's"},{"startTime":175.076,"endTime":181.669,"body":"go after a new segment, whether that's let's go for after if you're in the UK, let's go"},{"startTime":181.669,"endTime":184.8,"body":"after the US, or let's go after another industry vertical."},{"startTime":184.8,"endTime":187.412,"body":"There's a lot to do that."},{"startTime":187.412,"endTime":190.613,"body":"and so we wanted to talk through the kind of practicalities of that."},{"startTime":190.613,"endTime":192.635,"body":"So, talk to us about when a company decides."},{"startTime":192.635,"endTime":194.577,"body":"it wants to go after a new segment."},{"startTime":194.577,"endTime":203.86,"body":"What are some of the like first questions they should really be asking themselves about"},{"startTime":194.577,"endTime":203.86,"body":"why they want to do it and what are some of the like tactical things they should be"},{"startTime":203.86,"endTime":206.753,"body":"thinking through when they do decide to do it."},{"startTime":207.111,"endTime":210.375,"body":"Yeah, I think the why question is the most important one."},{"startTime":210.375,"endTime":220.002,"body":"I think most of the companies that want to go for a new segment haven't actually exhausted"},{"startTime":210.375,"endTime":220.002,"body":"their segment that they're already targeting, right?"},{"startTime":220.002,"endTime":224.237,"body":"So I would say especially if you're early stage, you shouldn't do it."},{"startTime":224.537,"endTime":225.088,"body":"Period."},{"startTime":225.088,"endTime":225.799,"body":"I mean unless"},{"startTime":225.799,"endTime":226.451,"body":"Great advice."},{"startTime":226.451,"endTime":226.933,"body":"Don't."},{"startTime":226.933,"endTime":228.832,"body":"would you define as early stage?"},{"startTime":229.016,"endTime":231.96,"body":"obviously if you're very, very early stage, right?"},{"startTime":231.96,"endTime":237.165,"body":"Seed pre-seed, you first need to define a segment, right?"},{"startTime":237.165,"endTime":237.956,"body":"A segment."},{"startTime":237.956,"endTime":241.521,"body":"so not a new segment, but something that you want to focus on."},{"startTime":241.521,"endTime":244.383,"body":"and then once your series"},{"startTime":245.2,"endTime":256.667,"body":"Later stage series B, for example, C, then it might make sense to move into a new segment"},{"startTime":245.2,"endTime":256.667,"body":"once you've exhausted your existing ones or once you cross the chasm to speak in Moores'"},{"startTime":256.667,"endTime":260.11,"body":"language in your current segment."},{"startTime":260.152,"endTime":264.489,"body":"I mean, but the questions that you need to ask obviously, and this is"},{"startTime":264.592,"endTime":272.34,"body":"Whether you're going for a segment or a new segment, is how likely can you win the segment"},{"startTime":264.592,"endTime":272.34,"body":"within the next 18 months?"},{"startTime":272.34,"endTime":275.604,"body":"how strong is the pain in the segment, right?"},{"startTime":275.604,"endTime":277.516,"body":"what is the need of the segment?"},{"startTime":277.516,"endTime":280.235,"body":"So, what will the product need to be?"},{"startTime":280.235,"endTime":284.117,"body":"how do you need to adapt the product differently for the segment?"},{"startTime":284.566,"endTime":286.798,"body":"Also, what is the willingness to pay, right?"},{"startTime":286.798,"endTime":287.74,"body":"So"},{"startTime":288.669,"endTime":301.309,"body":"For example, we had a a company that in the HR Tech space, Series B, they were quite good"},{"startTime":288.669,"endTime":301.309,"body":"in acquiring mid market and enterprise customers."},{"startTime":301.309,"endTime":303.82,"body":"So they they were good in their segment, right?"},{"startTime":303.82,"endTime":311.477,"body":"And and suddenly they wanted to go for the smaller smaller companies and do PLG, product"},{"startTime":303.82,"endTime":311.477,"body":"led growth."},{"startTime":311.477,"endTime":314.438,"body":"So essentially completely new motion."},{"startTime":314.438,"endTime":316.401,"body":"Completely new go to market, right?"},{"startTime":316.401,"endTime":322.229,"body":"so then obviously, you need to think about okay, what's the willingness to pay in this"},{"startTime":316.401,"endTime":322.229,"body":"segment?"},{"startTime":322.229,"endTime":324.412,"body":"Do I need to adjust something there?"},{"startTime":324.412,"endTime":328.797,"body":"and then also does this market continue to grow in the future?"},{"startTime":328.797,"endTime":329.988,"body":"Is growing, right?"},{"startTime":329.988,"endTime":332.413,"body":"That's also I think an interesting one."},{"startTime":332.413,"endTime":335.536,"body":"For example, everyone is proclaiming SaaS is gonna die."},{"startTime":335.536,"endTime":336.957,"body":"Are you focusing on SaaS?"},{"startTime":336.957,"endTime":339.56,"body":"Are you focusing now on AI native companies?"},{"startTime":339.56,"endTime":340.992,"body":"That could be a question."},{"startTime":340.992,"endTime":346.137,"body":"and then also do do you have a lighthouse customer in this segment already?"},{"startTime":346.137,"endTime":348.78,"body":"Do you see some traction, right?"},{"startTime":348.78,"endTime":352.865,"body":"and and then lastly, how do you know that it will work?"},{"startTime":352.865,"endTime":356.458,"body":"So defining some success metrics upfront."},{"startTime":356.458,"endTime":358.75,"body":"So I would say these are the the questions."},{"startTime":358.75,"endTime":369.18,"body":"And I I think it's true for whether you're kind of defining a new ICP on an early customer"},{"startTime":358.75,"endTime":369.18,"body":"profile or you want to go for a new segment."},{"startTime":369.82,"endTime":371.217,"body":"Very wise words."},{"startTime":371.197,"endTime":374.246,"body":"I'm so glad you mentioned Crossing the Chasm, by the way."},{"startTime":374.246,"endTime":380.589,"body":"I have met very few CEOs and business leaders that actually reference it."},{"startTime":380.73,"endTime":389.455,"body":"I think I think a lot of them kind of reference it a little bit naturally, but I think"},{"startTime":380.73,"endTime":389.455,"body":"it's very much underutilized and it's such a great framework."},{"startTime":389.455,"endTime":392.317,"body":"If if you haven't read it, if you're listening, please go read it."},{"startTime":392.317,"endTime":393.239,"body":"It's like a"},{"startTime":393.401,"endTime":395.004,"body":"three hour read, it's really fast."},{"startTime":395.004,"endTime":404.49,"body":"but I was wondering if you have any examples of where you're having these conversations"},{"startTime":395.004,"endTime":404.49,"body":"with your potential clients and there's just really bad whys like what is a complete red"},{"startTime":404.49,"endTime":407.904,"body":"flag to you immediately that like this is just not gonna work out"},{"startTime":407.904,"endTime":411.57,"body":"Mm, I mean once you start going into the data, right?"},{"startTime":411.57,"endTime":418.62,"body":"you see that for example the new segment that they want to go after is churning"},{"startTime":418.62,"endTime":430.436,"body":"Or you look at closed lost reasons and the smaller segment is actually deciding that it's"},{"startTime":418.62,"endTime":430.436,"body":"too expensive or the price is the decisive factor."},{"startTime":430.436,"endTime":435.434,"body":"Although it could also be that they're not bringing the value across properly, but"},{"startTime":435.434,"endTime":445.78,"body":"So I think once you start digging into the data, obviously if you're early stage you won't"},{"startTime":435.434,"endTime":445.78,"body":"have that much data, but in our case, talking about this series B company, they already"},{"startTime":445.78,"endTime":448.252,"body":"had quite some some data."},{"startTime":448.252,"endTime":453.373,"body":"I have also another example w in the compliance space where"},{"startTime":453.633,"endTime":466.426,"body":"Regulation was coming up to make websites more accessible, and they were like, okay, now"},{"startTime":453.633,"endTime":466.426,"body":"we have to go for three different segments or even four, because this disregulation"},{"startTime":466.426,"endTime":467.517,"body":"affects everyone."},{"startTime":467.517,"endTime":472.96,"body":"and then yeah, I was also looking at closed lost reasons and saw, okay."},{"startTime":473.352,"endTime":483.54,"body":"But I mean this the smaller segment they they most often say okay price is an issue etc"},{"startTime":473.352,"endTime":483.54,"body":"and also the regulation has also a threshold, right?"},{"startTime":483.54,"endTime":487.484,"body":"You if you're a 10 person company, you don't need to do this."},{"startTime":487.484,"endTime":497.074,"body":"So there's still an ICP, an ideal customer profile, and there there's there is a non-ICP"},{"startTime":487.484,"endTime":497.074,"body":"that you want to disqualify."},{"startTime":497.074,"endTime":500.314,"body":"And typically what we say it's a bit like"},{"startTime":500.949,"endTime":515.647,"body":"an onion right so 100% of iCP that is the segment we're building our product for eighty"},{"startTime":500.949,"endTime":515.647,"body":"percent icp fit we still want to get the handraisers and we obviously yeah 100% ICP we we"},{"startTime":515.647,"endTime":526.03,"body":"target those companies and then if if it's only sixty percent iCP fit you should rather"},{"startTime":515.647,"endTime":526.03,"body":"disqualify it because you will spend way too much time"},{"startTime":526.394,"endTime":527.727,"body":"on those companies."},{"startTime":527.727,"endTime":530.413,"body":"the sales cycle will be way too long."},{"startTime":530.413,"endTime":533.327,"body":"and then it's yeah, you have to focus your team, right?"},{"startTime":533.327,"endTime":535.058,"body":"so they cannot do everything."},{"startTime":535.058,"endTime":536.338,"body":"Um"},{"startTime":536.338,"endTime":543.098,"body":"you're gonna break someone's mind with a fifty percent disqualify 'cause sixty percent"},{"startTime":536.338,"endTime":543.098,"body":"excuse me disqualify"},{"startTime":555.2679999999999,"endTime":558.89,"body":"hates that, but don't we know between the three of us that that's the truth?"},{"startTime":558.89,"endTime":564.3629999999999,"body":"I was actually gonna say as well, one of the things that I was thinking about as you were"},{"startTime":558.89,"endTime":564.3629999999999,"body":"saying that, Anastasia, is also like cost of acquisition."},{"startTime":564.3629999999999,"endTime":566.415,"body":"That's a massive problem."},{"startTime":566.415,"endTime":572.199,"body":"So like let's what we have seen more typically, I think, is where you've been in the UK"},{"startTime":566.415,"endTime":572.199,"body":"and then you're like, we're gonna go break America."},{"startTime":572.199,"endTime":577.732,"body":"Because we can just do that because someone sold you on a dream that that's possible."},{"startTime":577.732,"endTime":581.294,"body":"And what people haven't realized is marketing in America is like"},{"startTime":581.9839999999999,"endTime":589.7769999999999,"body":"5x more expensive, you know, it's five times, 10 times more competitive, it's you haven't"},{"startTime":581.9839999999999,"endTime":589.7769999999999,"body":"got people on the ground."},{"startTime":589.7769999999999,"endTime":595.661,"body":"So there are like there are like like you say, there's almost like a structure of like"},{"startTime":589.7769999999999,"endTime":595.661,"body":"questions that you need to ask yourself."},{"startTime":595.661,"endTime":599.982,"body":"One of those is have you actually modelled how much it's gonna cost to acquire those"},{"startTime":595.661,"endTime":599.982,"body":"businesses?"},{"startTime":600.063,"endTime":600.8879999999999,"body":"Also"},{"startTime":600.8879999999999,"endTime":606.901,"body":"I would always say, like, what relationships do you have with people in the segment as"},{"startTime":600.8879999999999,"endTime":606.901,"body":"well?"},{"startTime":606.901,"endTime":608.6819999999999,"body":"Like, I think that's a really important question."},{"startTime":608.6819999999999,"endTime":618.067,"body":"Cause you were talking about the lighthouse customers, but also even amongst the team,"},{"startTime":608.6819999999999,"endTime":618.067,"body":"like, are there partners, are there like other collaborators that you have that are like"},{"startTime":618.067,"endTime":620.6289999999999,"body":"actually involved in that segment?"},{"startTime":620.6289999999999,"endTime":629.963,"body":"Like, I'm working with a client at the moment who one of their partners has got great"},{"startTime":620.6289999999999,"endTime":629.963,"body":"relationships with huge enterprises because he's worked in them and they've now built"},{"startTime":629.963,"endTime":630.804,"body":"a partnership."},{"startTime":630.804,"endTime":635.2869999999999,"body":"So of course they can go into that enterprise segment because he's selling it in."},{"startTime":635.2869999999999,"endTime":637.712,"body":"So he's doing the job for them."},{"startTime":637.712,"endTime":640.918,"body":"But that is purely based on the relationship, right?"},{"startTime":640.918,"endTime":646.4409999999999,"body":"Otherwise there would be no there would be no way that you would be able to enter that"},{"startTime":640.918,"endTime":646.4409999999999,"body":"enterprise segment."},{"startTime":646.4409999999999,"endTime":647.853,"body":"And I don't think people think that's"},{"startTime":647.853,"endTime":650.2049999999999,"body":"with going from like mid market to enterprise."},{"startTime":650.2049999999999,"endTime":654.4069999999999,"body":"Most peop like most companies are in mid market, they're like, Let's just get bigger"},{"startTime":650.2049999999999,"endTime":654.4069999999999,"body":"customers."},{"startTime":654.4069999999999,"endTime":655.318,"body":"They'll pay more money."},{"startTime":655.318,"endTime":656.3879999999999,"body":"That must be easy."},{"startTime":656.3879999999999,"endTime":661.548,"body":"But the cost of acquiring an enterprise is like Yeah."},{"startTime":661.548,"endTime":671.014,"body":"the cost goes up, the everything, the type of people you need on the team goes up, like"},{"startTime":661.548,"endTime":671.014,"body":"everything, the infrastructure you need to service those clients changes."},{"startTime":671.014,"endTime":672.6469999999999,"body":"There's a whole"},{"startTime":672.6469999999999,"endTime":676.91,"body":"There's a whole like operational part, which actually we're gonna talk about later, so I'm"},{"startTime":672.6469999999999,"endTime":676.91,"body":"not gonna skip too far."},{"startTime":676.91,"endTime":682.334,"body":"But let's talk about ideal customer profiles a little bit, because we've already touched"},{"startTime":676.91,"endTime":682.334,"body":"on those and they're really important."},{"startTime":682.334,"endTime":691.3299999999999,"body":"So if you are gonna go after a new segment and it's not a proven segment, but you've"},{"startTime":682.334,"endTime":691.3299999999999,"body":"ticked some of those initial questions off where you can say, like, okay, we actually"},{"startTime":691.3299999999999,"endTime":699.5649999999999,"body":"think going after this segment's a good idea, how do you actually validate an ICP for a"},{"startTime":691.3299999999999,"endTime":699.5649999999999,"body":"new segment if you haven't really got any customers in that space already?"},{"startTime":699.7479999999999,"endTime":700.049,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":700.049,"endTime":710.8549999999999,"body":"Yeah, if you haven't got any customers in that space, otherwise you can pull obviously"},{"startTime":700.049,"endTime":710.8549999999999,"body":"your your customer data, then we always go out and talk to the segment, right?"},{"startTime":710.8549999999999,"endTime":721.918,"body":"So really try to get at least, I don't know, 10, 15 interviews to understand okay, what"},{"startTime":710.8549999999999,"endTime":721.918,"body":"are what are their problems."},{"startTime":722.059,"endTime":724.2009999999999,"body":"What are they using now?"},{"startTime":724.2009999999999,"endTime":726.622,"body":"How do they solve those problems now?"},{"startTime":726.622,"endTime":732.901,"body":"Is there maybe already a a competitor or even like a workaround, right?"},{"startTime":732.901,"endTime":736.3629999999999,"body":"It doesn't always need to be a direct competitor."},{"startTime":736.3629999999999,"endTime":743.588,"body":"It's always just like, I'm using, you know, some kind of workaround with Excel and Claude"},{"startTime":736.3629999999999,"endTime":743.588,"body":"or whatever whatever."},{"startTime":744.05,"endTime":746.6049999999999,"body":"and then yeah, so essentially"},{"startTime":746.6049999999999,"endTime":758.5949999999999,"body":"try to to to understand their pains, how they work now, what solutions they might already"},{"startTime":746.6049999999999,"endTime":758.5949999999999,"body":"evaluate or might not, maybe they they they're not solution aware, they're not problem"},{"startTime":758.5949999999999,"endTime":759.218,"body":"aware."},{"startTime":759.218,"endTime":760.54,"body":"we don't know that, right?"},{"startTime":760.54,"endTime":767.4269999999999,"body":"And then that's kind of the qualitative part, of course, if depending on your company"},{"startTime":760.54,"endTime":767.4269999999999,"body":"stage again"},{"startTime":767.4269999999999,"endTime":775.858,"body":"You would also do a bit of a quantitative analysis, but if you're early stage, I think the"},{"startTime":767.4269999999999,"endTime":775.858,"body":"interviews would already be telling you a lot."},{"startTime":775.858,"endTime":778.9559999999999,"body":"And then you you look for similarities, right?"},{"startTime":778.9559999999999,"endTime":781.16,"body":"So how can you group them?"},{"startTime":781.16,"endTime":782.501,"body":"what do they have in common?"},{"startTime":782.501,"endTime":786.656,"body":"Like any firmographics, any buying triggers"},{"startTime":786.656,"endTime":800.0169999999999,"body":"I mean there's the obvious things like revenue, employee size, but there's also triggers"},{"startTime":786.656,"endTime":800.0169999999999,"body":"like okay they're a hiring or they just raised the series A and they want yeah to expand"},{"startTime":800.0169999999999,"endTime":807.982,"body":"their team or have a a certain problem right they have go to market they have product"},{"startTime":800.0169999999999,"endTime":807.982,"body":"market fit but not no go to market fit"},{"startTime":808.353,"endTime":809.784,"body":"and so on and so forth."},{"startTime":809.784,"endTime":819.088,"body":"So yeah th those would be kind of the the company level signals and I would also look for"},{"startTime":809.784,"endTime":819.088,"body":"negative flags, right?"},{"startTime":819.088,"endTime":827.409,"body":"So we definitely look at things that if we hear those then we want to disqualify as"},{"startTime":819.088,"endTime":827.409,"body":"quickly as possible."},{"startTime":827.409,"endTime":828.5699999999999,"body":"Very sensible advice."},{"startTime":828.5699999999999,"endTime":830.03,"body":"I'm really enjoying this conversation."},{"startTime":830.03,"endTime":834.173,"body":"I'm like, it's so nice to talk to somebody who actually wants to validate this stuff"},{"startTime":830.03,"endTime":834.173,"body":"before doing it."},{"startTime":834.173,"endTime":835.857,"body":"So not the norm."},{"startTime":835.857,"endTime":841.0899999999999,"body":"I don't think I've ever had such a sensible conversation about going after a segment"},{"startTime":835.857,"endTime":841.0899999999999,"body":"without feeling like I'm losing my mind."},{"startTime":841.0899999999999,"endTime":843.14,"body":"So it's quite nice."},{"startTime":843.4509999999999,"endTime":847.6759999999999,"body":"There's a there's a lot of divisions with going off to new segments, I main problem."},{"startTime":848.1179999999999,"endTime":848.8489999999999,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":848.8489999999999,"endTime":851.3439999999999,"body":"So one of the things that is obviously"},{"startTime":851.765,"endTime":861.9799999999999,"body":"impacting most tech companies is AI so whether you now have to put AI powered on on every"},{"startTime":851.765,"endTime":861.9799999999999,"body":"sentence in your website or you are actually doing something cool with AI, how does that"},{"startTime":861.9799999999999,"endTime":862.631,"body":"change things?"},{"startTime":862.631,"endTime":864.762,"body":"are we going after companies that work with AI now?"},{"startTime":864.762,"endTime":867.553,"body":"Are we s positioning ourselves as an AI company?"},{"startTime":867.553,"endTime":874.3879999999999,"body":"Have what kind of like I guess examples or or experiences have you had with that in the"},{"startTime":867.553,"endTime":874.3879999999999,"body":"last couple of years since ChatGPT blew up?"},{"startTime":874.3879999999999,"endTime":876.5889999999999,"body":"yeah, that's a that's a good one."},{"startTime":876.5889999999999,"endTime":880.8969999999999,"body":"I I feel like everyone is just putting AI enabled onto it."},{"startTime":880.8969999999999,"endTime":884.082,"body":"but I think it it's not always good to be honest."},{"startTime":884.082,"endTime":888.577,"body":"But maybe I'll talk a little bit about how we are approaching positioning."},{"startTime":888.577,"endTime":890.961,"body":"So typically what we do is"},{"startTime":890.961,"endTime":904.601,"body":"analyze the competition and then write for basically every competitive alternative and"},{"startTime":890.961,"endTime":904.601,"body":"that can be obviously direct competitors but also your yeah do nothing right that's the"},{"startTime":904.601,"endTime":916.8929999999999,"body":"most most important actually competitive alternative and I feel like in today's market"},{"startTime":904.601,"endTime":916.8929999999999,"body":"it's very very much the case that people just don't decide because they're a bit of"},{"startTime":916.8929999999999,"endTime":919.516,"body":"Okay, can I build this with Claude maybe?"},{"startTime":919.516,"endTime":925.346,"body":"And so yeah so you need to be aware of of of how people are solving it right now."},{"startTime":925.346,"endTime":933.911,"body":"And then for each competitive alternative, we look for okay, what's the unique attributes"},{"startTime":925.346,"endTime":933.911,"body":"of my software, right?"},{"startTime":933.911,"endTime":936.314,"body":"based on on that alternative."},{"startTime":936.314,"endTime":938.635,"body":"then we we look for value and proof."},{"startTime":938.635,"endTime":953.2959999999999,"body":"So typically this needs to be justifiable numbers right so you your saving time, your"},{"startTime":938.635,"endTime":953.2959999999999,"body":"saving costs, so something that we can quantify, we can prove and which is objective and"},{"startTime":953.2959999999999,"endTime":954.327,"body":"not subjective."},{"startTime":954.327,"endTime":955.101,"body":"and then"},{"startTime":955.101,"endTime":959.3729999999999,"body":"typically also look for relevant trends so wh to create urgency."},{"startTime":959.3729999999999,"endTime":960.184,"body":"So why now?"},{"startTime":960.184,"endTime":962.746,"body":"Why should you decide for the solution now?"},{"startTime":962.746,"endTime":967.9599999999999,"body":"And and then we come up with this value proposition that is typically two pillars."},{"startTime":967.9599999999999,"endTime":977.545,"body":"One the first pillar is typically you define your category for people that might now solve"},{"startTime":967.9599999999999,"endTime":977.545,"body":"the the the issue"},{"startTime":978.001,"endTime":983.9649999999999,"body":"through pen and paper or do nothing or Excel or any other kind of a scrappy way."},{"startTime":983.9649999999999,"endTime":994.6429999999999,"body":"And then the second pillar is actually where you differentiate yourself against your"},{"startTime":983.9649999999999,"endTime":994.6429999999999,"body":"direct competitors, and where you put in the value improve and you you show how you're"},{"startTime":994.6429999999999,"endTime":996.9449999999999,"body":"different from similar solutions."},{"startTime":996.9449999999999,"endTime":1000.558,"body":"and yeah and coming back to that question, I I think"},{"startTime":1000.558,"endTime":1013.832,"body":"If you're in certain industries, this could rather be a negative lag because you people"},{"startTime":1000.558,"endTime":1013.832,"body":"are like, Okay, GDPR, my god, the data is going to the LLMs or what whatever."},{"startTime":1013.832,"endTime":1018.6859999999999,"body":"so you need to really again be be careful and and also"},{"startTime":1018.6859999999999,"endTime":1028.708,"body":"I mean I th I think by now it's a standard feature in the in each product, to have AI"},{"startTime":1018.6859999999999,"endTime":1028.708,"body":"capabilities, right?"},{"startTime":1028.708,"endTime":1033.915,"body":"So I don't think it's it's a huge differentiator by now, to be honest."},{"startTime":1033.915,"endTime":1034.583,"body":"so"},{"startTime":1034.583,"endTime":1037.8960000000002,"body":"Yeah, you you need more than than that, right?"},{"startTime":1037.8960000000002,"endTime":1038.286,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1038.286,"endTime":1048.924,"body":"I also it's that thing of saying if if the if the if you know what the challenges are that"},{"startTime":1038.286,"endTime":1048.924,"body":"your audience have and your customers have and AI is part of that solution, I think my you"},{"startTime":1048.924,"endTime":1055.43,"body":"know, my view is always if that is part of the solution that's fine if you can articulate"},{"startTime":1048.924,"endTime":1055.43,"body":"why it's part of the solution to the problem that they have."},{"startTime":1055.43,"endTime":1058.133,"body":"If it isn't, it doesn't need to go in there."},{"startTime":1058.9740000000002,"endTime":1059.614,"body":"You know."},{"startTime":1059.614,"endTime":1064.1670000000001,"body":"we always say like don't s cite your features, right?"},{"startTime":1064.1670000000001,"endTime":1070.632,"body":"So um of course like you need to you need to make sure that they get the value."},{"startTime":1070.632,"endTime":1073.0030000000002,"body":"So what's the outcome that you're selling, right?"},{"startTime":1073.0030000000002,"endTime":1074.5040000000001,"body":"You're selling an outcome."},{"startTime":1074.5040000000001,"endTime":1081.029,"body":"I don't care if it's AI or not AI, I want a certain thing to be to certain job to be done."},{"startTime":1081.029,"endTime":1082.346,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":1082.346,"endTime":1083.338,"body":"Yeah, always."},{"startTime":1083.338,"endTime":1084.51,"body":"Always lead with the problem."},{"startTime":1084.51,"endTime":1086.4540000000002,"body":"I think that's why it's interesting, isn't it?"},{"startTime":1086.4540000000002,"endTime":1094.5900000000001,"body":"Because when it comes to like other types of marketing, like even just B to C it's so"},{"startTime":1086.4540000000002,"endTime":1094.5900000000001,"body":"obvious that that's the way that people buy and I think"},{"startTime":1094.5900000000001,"endTime":1096.981,"body":"in B2B in particular, we kind of forget that."},{"startTime":1096.981,"endTime":1099.9930000000002,"body":"It's like there's still humans with problems buying your thing."},{"startTime":1099.9930000000002,"endTime":1104.025,"body":"And that's why they bought the thing, because they want to make their life easier."},{"startTime":1105.106,"endTime":1113.0800000000002,"body":"it's usually the f the the sort of basic basic um like reasons for buying new product"},{"startTime":1105.106,"endTime":1113.0800000000002,"body":"product or service, right?"},{"startTime":1113.0800000000002,"endTime":1121.449,"body":"Um so when it comes to kind of product market fit, because again this is another problem"},{"startTime":1113.0800000000002,"endTime":1121.449,"body":"we always talk about on this podcast, Anastasia, that you can't outmarket a bad product."},{"startTime":1121.449,"endTime":1122.592,"body":"It's quite hard to do that."},{"startTime":1122.592,"endTime":1131.1460000000002,"body":"so when you are entering a new segment, like what are some of the ways that you could"},{"startTime":1122.592,"endTime":1131.1460000000002,"body":"potentially figure out if it's the product or if it's the marketing?"},{"startTime":1131.635,"endTime":1142.015,"body":"I mean the the really quick one is if you see there's great retention, but yeah, customers"},{"startTime":1131.635,"endTime":1142.015,"body":"love it once they have it, but you can't get enough of the rights once."},{"startTime":1142.015,"endTime":1144.238,"body":"There could be rather marketing problem."},{"startTime":1144.238,"endTime":1150.9640000000002,"body":"if you can get people in but they don't stick, that's typically a product market fit"},{"startTime":1144.238,"endTime":1150.9640000000002,"body":"problem."},{"startTime":1151.373,"endTime":1155.576,"body":"Or they don't use it enough or yeah, they churn."},{"startTime":1155.576,"endTime":1159.67,"body":"So I think a a great test is the Sean Ellis test."},{"startTime":1159.67,"endTime":1161.3210000000001,"body":"you probably know that one."},{"startTime":1161.3210000000001,"endTime":1169.665,"body":"so if you ask your this sp specific segment, how disappointed would you be if this product"},{"startTime":1161.3210000000001,"endTime":1169.665,"body":"wouldn't exist any longer?"},{"startTime":1169.665,"endTime":1174.78,"body":"And if 40% need to say that they would be very disappointed, then"},{"startTime":1174.78,"endTime":1177.412,"body":"you kind of have product market fit."},{"startTime":1177.412,"endTime":1182.135,"body":"if not, yeah, and and then yeah, you have to obviously do it on your segment."},{"startTime":1182.135,"endTime":1187.3990000000001,"body":"So other red flags I would say are the sales cycles are extending."},{"startTime":1187.3990000000001,"endTime":1195.126,"body":"even if you have good enablement, every deal requires some kind of customization or"},{"startTime":1195.126,"endTime":1199.288,"body":"you need to discount every time to close the deal."},{"startTime":1199.288,"endTime":1202.8500000000001,"body":"And we know that this is a a common one."},{"startTime":1202.8500000000001,"endTime":1205.2730000000001,"body":"Like almost everyone is discounting."},{"startTime":1205.2730000000001,"endTime":1210.0240000000001,"body":"you have high churn in the first, I don't know, 90 days or so."},{"startTime":1224.794,"endTime":1235.068,"body":"Yeah, so so I would say these are the the the ones where you say, okay, this is probably a"},{"startTime":1224.794,"endTime":1235.068,"body":"product market fit problem."},{"startTime":1235.661,"endTime":1236.313,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1236.313,"endTime":1237.987,"body":"I haven't thought about that question too much."},{"startTime":1237.987,"endTime":1244.194,"body":"So it's nice to have some like pointers because you t you tend to like feel it a little"},{"startTime":1237.987,"endTime":1244.194,"body":"bit, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1244.194,"endTime":1251.0910000000001,"body":"Where you're like, oof, there's there's something up here, like I don't know if it's the"},{"startTime":1244.194,"endTime":1251.0910000000001,"body":"marketing, but it's good to have like some specific numbers to to fall back on."},{"startTime":1251.0910000000001,"endTime":1255.2150000000001,"body":"Um, because yeah, marketing fit products is so hard."},{"startTime":1255.5610000000001,"endTime":1258.779,"body":"in an ideal world, you know, if you've got that kind of like"},{"startTime":1259.005,"endTime":1264.488,"body":"if product and marketing are close, which I would like to see more of in organizations, I"},{"startTime":1259.005,"endTime":1264.488,"body":"don't see a lot of that to be honest."},{"startTime":1264.488,"endTime":1269.21,"body":"Even when there's a product marketer, I'm like, we're not cl as close as we could be."},{"startTime":1269.21,"endTime":1278.414,"body":"And I think, you know, like marketing has the ability to help with product market fit"},{"startTime":1269.21,"endTime":1278.414,"body":"because we can obviously feed into, we can feed back a lot of the information, a lot of"},{"startTime":1278.414,"endTime":1281.9950000000001,"body":"the data that tells you whether the product market fit is right."},{"startTime":1281.9950000000001,"endTime":1288.358,"body":"Some of the things you're talking about, Anastasia, like, I don't know, like even if you"},{"startTime":1281.9950000000001,"endTime":1288.358,"body":"keep trying to run like G2 review campaigns and you never get any."},{"startTime":1288.358,"endTime":1293.281,"body":"reviews out of anybody, it's highly unlikely that it's just the marketing that's the"},{"startTime":1288.358,"endTime":1293.281,"body":"problem."},{"startTime":1293.281,"endTime":1300.306,"body":"You know, like I think you can take there are things that we are doing where you can take"},{"startTime":1293.281,"endTime":1300.306,"body":"indication like from what we're doing."},{"startTime":1300.306,"endTime":1309.0710000000001,"body":"Even if your website's got terrible conversion rates, but you're really clear on your"},{"startTime":1300.306,"endTime":1309.0710000000001,"body":"website about what you do and you get lots of traffic and you get lots of people clicking"},{"startTime":1309.0710000000001,"endTime":1310.025,"body":"around"},{"startTime":1310.025,"endTime":1310.537,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1310.537,"endTime":1317.93,"body":"No, I think there's there are there are signs I think that you could be using and I I I'll"},{"startTime":1310.537,"endTime":1317.93,"body":"be honest, like I definitely don't use those enough in conversations with people about"},{"startTime":1317.93,"endTime":1322.3310000000001,"body":"product because No, don't get asked."},{"startTime":1322.3310000000001,"endTime":1323.333,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1323.636,"endTime":1327.678,"body":"But we could be having we could initiate some of those conversations, couldn't we as"},{"startTime":1323.636,"endTime":1327.678,"body":"marketers?"},{"startTime":1327.678,"endTime":1335.2930000000001,"body":"We could be the ones who are like, okay, I've got a set of metrics from marketing that to"},{"startTime":1327.678,"endTime":1335.2930000000001,"body":"tell us whether there's a product issue or not."},{"startTime":1335.2930000000001,"endTime":1340.2050000000002,"body":"Um and then obviously you go out and validate it with some of the the numbers that"},{"startTime":1335.2930000000001,"endTime":1340.2050000000002,"body":"Anastasia's talking about."},{"startTime":1340.2050000000002,"endTime":1347.759,"body":"But you can you can like you say, if you want to, I guess, put your finger on the feeling"},{"startTime":1340.2050000000002,"endTime":1347.759,"body":"that you're talking about router, that's the way to do it, isn't it?"},{"startTime":1347.759,"endTime":1349.576,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, agreed."},{"startTime":1349.5800000000002,"endTime":1350.173,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1350.173,"endTime":1350.387,"body":"So"},{"startTime":1350.387,"endTime":1361.723,"body":"another example maybe as well, with a customer of ours where I went out to talk to their"},{"startTime":1350.387,"endTime":1361.723,"body":"customers, like different segments as well, smaller ones, bigger ones."},{"startTime":1361.723,"endTime":1367.276,"body":"and the customers basically all told me, Yeah, we're actually not"},{"startTime":1367.3970000000002,"endTime":1373.3700000000001,"body":"really using the software we're using because they had a bit of a software plus service"},{"startTime":1367.3970000000002,"endTime":1373.3700000000001,"body":"approach."},{"startTime":1373.3700000000001,"endTime":1378.943,"body":"So mm and and most of the smaller companies were only using this the service approach."},{"startTime":1378.943,"endTime":1383.665,"body":"So data protection officer and not the data protection software."},{"startTime":1383.665,"endTime":1387.528,"body":"And I was like, okay, but you want to be a software co company."},{"startTime":1387.528,"endTime":1395.0030000000002,"body":"so we need to figure out who actually uses the software more, who are the power users who"},{"startTime":1387.528,"endTime":1395.0030000000002,"body":"actually get value out of it."},{"startTime":1395.0030000000002,"endTime":1395.383,"body":"And so"},{"startTime":1395.383,"endTime":1400.97,"body":"So then we discovered that it only makes sense to automate these data privacy things."},{"startTime":1400.97,"endTime":1409.303,"body":"once you're a bigger company, you're rather mid-market where you have already legal person"},{"startTime":1400.97,"endTime":1409.303,"body":"that struggles with these problems."},{"startTime":1409.303,"endTime":1416.41,"body":"And w and if you're small you're like, I don't care, like I have the d data protection"},{"startTime":1409.303,"endTime":1416.41,"body":"officer, you'll figure it out."},{"startTime":1416.41,"endTime":1418.019,"body":"I don't wanna"},{"startTime":1418.019,"endTime":1419.683,"body":"to do anything with it, right?"},{"startTime":1419.683,"endTime":1426.952,"body":"So and that was clearly okay, we apparently don't have product market fit in this"},{"startTime":1419.683,"endTime":1426.952,"body":"particular segment."},{"startTime":1426.952,"endTime":1432.856,"body":"I want to ask you a question about that, Anastasia, because obviously Root and I do work"},{"startTime":1426.952,"endTime":1432.856,"body":"predominantly with SaaS as well."},{"startTime":1432.856,"endTime":1436.6490000000001,"body":"and there is usually a plus service bit in there."},{"startTime":1436.6490000000001,"endTime":1445.804,"body":"And I have seen the exact example that you're talking about play out where people want the"},{"startTime":1436.6490000000001,"endTime":1445.804,"body":"service first and they want the software second, and sort of the software is a bit of a"},{"startTime":1445.804,"endTime":1447.365,"body":"like extra added extra."},{"startTime":1447.365,"endTime":1454.3890000000001,"body":"But then what happens is there's pressure from the VCs in the board, um, with the CEO or"},{"startTime":1447.365,"endTime":1454.3890000000001,"body":"the founder because they're"},{"startTime":1454.3890000000001,"endTime":1463.395,"body":"they're like, no, we only want to invest where you've got ARR and yeah, and and service"},{"startTime":1454.3890000000001,"endTime":1463.395,"body":"doesn't fall into the ARR category."},{"startTime":1463.395,"endTime":1466.9170000000001,"body":"So how do you tackle that kind of conundrum?"},{"startTime":1466.9170000000001,"endTime":1468.961,"body":"Because that is that is quite common."},{"startTime":1468.961,"endTime":1469.893,"body":"yes, yes."},{"startTime":1469.893,"endTime":1478.334,"body":"I mean again I I would try to identify the segment that will most likely benefit from your"},{"startTime":1478.334,"endTime":1491.636,"body":"software right and and I think you can basically like the criteria that I said okay is it"},{"startTime":1478.334,"endTime":1491.636,"body":"a a particular vertical right do they have a particular problem is it certain size of"},{"startTime":1491.636,"endTime":1502.498,"body":"people certain revenue or maybe also the team size from from when they need something like"},{"startTime":1491.636,"endTime":1502.498,"body":"that right for example we also have with this HR software for example they"},{"startTime":1502.498,"endTime":1511.256,"body":"only needed a talent acquisition suite once they actually had a VP of talent acquisition,"},{"startTime":1502.498,"endTime":1511.256,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":1511.256,"endTime":1514.339,"body":"and then they they they were ready for it."},{"startTime":1514.339,"endTime":1525.779,"body":"So but yeah it's it's quite interesting actually now with all the AI stuff that you you"},{"startTime":1514.339,"endTime":1525.779,"body":"you almost get like the service component first so peop"},{"startTime":1525.8110000000001,"endTime":1537.278,"body":"Some companies even do this forward deployed engineering bit where they go in, they say,"},{"startTime":1525.8110000000001,"endTime":1537.278,"body":"Okay, we offer you as a service, we will co develop something and then we'll see what kind"},{"startTime":1537.278,"endTime":1540.402,"body":"of use case and build build it for you customizable."},{"startTime":1540.402,"endTime":1547.8310000000001,"body":"I think that changed a little bit a little bit, but if you're a SaaS and you do mostly"},{"startTime":1540.402,"endTime":1547.8310000000001,"body":"service, that's a bit of a tricky one, I would say."},{"startTime":1547.8310000000001,"endTime":1548.8980000000001,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1548.8980000000001,"endTime":1553.759,"body":"feel like a lot of service companies also get funding to then turn into SaaS companies."},{"startTime":1553.759,"endTime":1555.346,"body":"Um"},{"startTime":1555.394,"endTime":1555.8700000000001,"body":"true."},{"startTime":1555.8700000000001,"endTime":1565.9460000000001,"body":"also a tricky one because again the clients that you were servicing as a service company,"},{"startTime":1555.8700000000001,"endTime":1565.9460000000001,"body":"there's a lot of service in that, um, are probably not the same clients that are gonna"},{"startTime":1565.9460000000001,"endTime":1573.089,"body":"want software because actually like the notion of do it yourself versus someone else doing"},{"startTime":1565.9460000000001,"endTime":1573.089,"body":"it for you is already like very different, right?"},{"startTime":1573.089,"endTime":1575.121,"body":"Different persona, different different needs."},{"startTime":1575.121,"endTime":1577.0620000000001,"body":"So yeah, we we see that a lot as well."},{"startTime":1577.0620000000001,"endTime":1581.756,"body":"So let's go back to something that we alluded to earlier, which is operational readiness."},{"startTime":1581.756,"endTime":1582.3590000000002,"body":"what are some of"},{"startTime":1582.3590000000002,"endTime":1589.8880000000001,"body":"the operational, I guess, checks and commitments that you need to think about before you"},{"startTime":1582.3590000000002,"endTime":1589.8880000000001,"body":"try to break into a new segment."},{"startTime":1589.8880000000001,"endTime":1594.204,"body":"So resources, process, people, what what are those?"},{"startTime":1594.4450000000002,"endTime":1595.626,"body":"Systems."},{"startTime":1596.371,"endTime":1606.441,"body":"Yes, so I think the first thing you need to be aware of once you identified a new segment"},{"startTime":1596.371,"endTime":1606.441,"body":"or you decided to go for a new segment, this changes your whole go to market."},{"startTime":1606.441,"endTime":1612.6380000000001,"body":"So which means your product needs to be adapted, maybe."},{"startTime":1612.6380000000001,"endTime":1615.28,"body":"your pricing needs to be adapted, right?"},{"startTime":1615.28,"endTime":1620.285,"body":"So in as I said in the earlier example of the series B HR tech."},{"startTime":1620.4950000000001,"endTime":1630.422,"body":"if you're going if you were a mid-market enterprise and then you're going for a smaller"},{"startTime":1620.4950000000001,"endTime":1630.422,"body":"segment now, SMB or something, then okay, what's the pricing then?"},{"startTime":1630.422,"endTime":1636.067,"body":"which go-to-market motion are you now doing to acquire those customers?"},{"startTime":1636.067,"endTime":1642.8310000000001,"body":"So is it still outbound, is it inbound, is it product led, account-based, etc."},{"startTime":1642.948,"endTime":1646.0410000000002,"body":"Then yes, how do you on onboard people?"},{"startTime":1646.0410000000002,"endTime":1647.332,"body":"the whole marketing bit."},{"startTime":1647.332,"endTime":1651.348,"body":"So how do you qualify them against your ICP?"},{"startTime":1651.348,"endTime":1653.971,"body":"how you nurture them, how you route them."},{"startTime":1653.971,"endTime":1655.7930000000001,"body":"So essentially everything."},{"startTime":1655.7930000000001,"endTime":1664.608,"body":"So that's why we we say, okay, first ICP research, then ICP development, and then once"},{"startTime":1655.7930000000001,"endTime":1664.608,"body":"you've taken this decision."},{"startTime":1665.281,"endTime":1669.806,"body":"you need to do go to market team enablement, we call it."},{"startTime":1669.806,"endTime":1672.1970000000001,"body":"so what does that mean for the team?"},{"startTime":1672.1970000000001,"endTime":1676.8500000000001,"body":"And typically what we do is go into the different into the different teams."},{"startTime":1676.8500000000001,"endTime":1682.512,"body":"And by the way, the teams are obviously already in the development research phase, they're"},{"startTime":1676.8500000000001,"endTime":1682.512,"body":"already involved."},{"startTime":1682.512,"endTime":1685.113,"body":"So they will give their perspective as well."},{"startTime":1685.113,"endTime":1686.904,"body":"Maybe I I forgot to mention that."},{"startTime":1686.904,"endTime":1689.132,"body":"So so the workshopping bit and"},{"startTime":1689.132,"endTime":1691.795,"body":"how sales is selling to to various segments."},{"startTime":1691.795,"endTime":1697.335,"body":"But then the enablement bit is really what does that mean for your daily work now?"},{"startTime":1697.335,"endTime":1697.625,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1697.625,"endTime":1709.726,"body":"So if you're in customer success, what does that mean when you were always enterprise and"},{"startTime":1697.625,"endTime":1709.726,"body":"you s you tend to tended to spend a lot of time on quarterly business reviews with the"},{"startTime":1709.726,"endTime":1713.93,"body":"customers because they're huge huge clients you need to make sure you"},{"startTime":1714.213,"endTime":1717.396,"body":"you hit the value targets and so on."},{"startTime":1717.396,"endTime":1719.497,"body":"Now you go for a smaller segment."},{"startTime":1719.497,"endTime":1720.8980000000001,"body":"What what does that mean?"},{"startTime":1720.8980000000001,"endTime":1723.1580000000001,"body":"You cannot do the same, right?"},{"startTime":1723.1580000000001,"endTime":1735.1860000000001,"body":"You cannot spend as much time because the the average contract value is much lower, so you"},{"startTime":1723.1580000000001,"endTime":1735.1860000000001,"body":"have to do some kind of health check, maybe automated health check."},{"startTime":1735.733,"endTime":1738.336,"body":"Same for the for for marketing, okay."},{"startTime":1738.336,"endTime":1746.694,"body":"your website probably speaks to the enterprise segment, not to the small customer segment."},{"startTime":1746.694,"endTime":1748.4650000000001,"body":"So what do you do?"},{"startTime":1748.4650000000001,"endTime":1750.1380000000001,"body":"Like how do you adapt it?"},{"startTime":1750.1380000000001,"endTime":1751.8790000000001,"body":"what's what's the messaging?"},{"startTime":1751.8790000000001,"endTime":1754.612,"body":"What what is the persona you are talking to?"},{"startTime":1754.612,"endTime":1760.067,"body":"Do they do they do then a free trial or can they self-onboard?"},{"startTime":1760.067,"endTime":1760.847,"body":"So"},{"startTime":1760.923,"endTime":1769.392,"body":"There's massive massive massive change once you decide that that you wanna go for a"},{"startTime":1760.923,"endTime":1769.392,"body":"different segment."},{"startTime":1769.4650000000001,"endTime":1778.2930000000001,"body":"It's it's interesting, Anastasia, 'cause obviously like everything you're describing"},{"startTime":1769.4650000000001,"endTime":1778.2930000000001,"body":"sounds completely rational and pragmatic to us, but the reality is we we encounter"},{"startTime":1778.2930000000001,"endTime":1781.488,"body":"founders and CEOs all the time that basically are like"},{"startTime":1782.319,"endTime":1783.5900000000001,"body":"Yeah, that all sounds great."},{"startTime":1783.5900000000001,"endTime":1785.992,"body":"We'll kind of just do it if we can."},{"startTime":1785.992,"endTime":1787.573,"body":"What's what's your sense of that?"},{"startTime":1787.573,"endTime":1792.257,"body":"So I was having a bit of an existential crisis the other day where I was like, maybe Rutra"},{"startTime":1787.573,"endTime":1792.257,"body":"and I are wrong."},{"startTime":1792.257,"endTime":1796.671,"body":"Maybe we shouldn't do all this pragmatic, logical stuff that's grounded."},{"startTime":1796.671,"endTime":1805.068,"body":"Maybe we should just be a bit more like these founders that are like, nah, let's just give"},{"startTime":1796.671,"endTime":1805.068,"body":"it a go and let's all just get on board and like stop making it difficult."},{"startTime":1805.068,"endTime":1810.472,"body":"Have you is it possible that it can work if you ignore this stuff?"},{"startTime":1810.674,"endTime":1812.134,"body":"That's my first question."},{"startTime":1812.223,"endTime":1813.662,"body":"It's unlikely, but"},{"startTime":1813.662,"endTime":1820.6670000000001,"body":"like I yeah, the other day I had that conversation actually with a founder of an AI native"},{"startTime":1813.662,"endTime":1820.6670000000001,"body":"company."},{"startTime":1820.6670000000001,"endTime":1830.074,"body":"Very fast growing, and of course they think okay, we're vertical agnostic, we're gonna"},{"startTime":1820.6670000000001,"endTime":1830.074,"body":"just, you know."},{"startTime":1830.276,"endTime":1842.632,"body":"do a lot of performance marketing and bring in, I mean they're also focused on SMBs rather"},{"startTime":1830.276,"endTime":1842.632,"body":"S than as a really small customers and doing a lot of performance marketing."},{"startTime":1843.2720000000002,"endTime":1849.534,"body":"And I think yeah for to start with, I mean that can work."},{"startTime":1849.674,"endTime":1857.4360000000001,"body":"But what I typically see is after a certain time of acquiring everyone"},{"startTime":1858.309,"endTime":1862.082,"body":"they see also that a certain segment is churning."},{"startTime":1862.082,"endTime":1871.635,"body":"they're spending a certain more time on on maybe non-good fit customers to onboard them"},{"startTime":1862.082,"endTime":1871.635,"body":"because they're not as technical."},{"startTime":1871.635,"endTime":1877.467,"body":"and then then you spend a lot of internal resources and money on on the onboarding bit."},{"startTime":1877.467,"endTime":1878.327,"body":"and"},{"startTime":1878.969,"endTime":1885.113,"body":"Or you spent a lot of money on even acquiring the customers as you said, so high customer"},{"startTime":1878.969,"endTime":1885.113,"body":"acquisition cost."},{"startTime":1885.113,"endTime":1892.3400000000001,"body":"so typically I say, Yeah, you you can try that, but then after something they come to us."},{"startTime":1892.3400000000001,"endTime":1894.18,"body":"They come back to us."},{"startTime":1894.18,"endTime":1899.383,"body":"They come back and they're like, Yeah, Anastasia, you were right."},{"startTime":1899.383,"endTime":1905.005,"body":"they if they can make it a year with that mentality, they're doing all right."},{"startTime":1905.005,"endTime":1913.1280000000002,"body":"But generally I would say after about six months, we get messages where they've come back"},{"startTime":1905.005,"endTime":1913.1280000000002,"body":"and they're like, wait, maybe we shouldn't have."},{"startTime":1913.6280000000002,"endTime":1916.05,"body":"But I I it's it's very validating to hear that."},{"startTime":1916.05,"endTime":1917.6660000000002,"body":"Makes me feel less insane."},{"startTime":1917.6660000000002,"endTime":1921.0910000000001,"body":"we had a conversation not too long ago with someone about like"},{"startTime":1921.0910000000001,"endTime":1929.77,"body":"Going into the market and we were like, Okay, it's a competitive market, there's a lot out"},{"startTime":1921.0910000000001,"endTime":1929.77,"body":"there, you're brand new, you don't have like the necessary partnerships, et cetera."},{"startTime":1929.77,"endTime":1932.853,"body":"So how would we actually go to market with you launching?"},{"startTime":1932.853,"endTime":1940.361,"body":"And we put together a plan that was like fairly hardcore because like that is probably"},{"startTime":1932.853,"endTime":1940.361,"body":"what they need to get enough customers to keep going."},{"startTime":1940.361,"endTime":1945.184,"body":"And it was like an immediate no because they're at the stage where they're like, no, it's"},{"startTime":1940.361,"endTime":1945.184,"body":"fine."},{"startTime":1945.185,"endTime":1947.306,"body":"Like, this is great."},{"startTime":1947.314,"endTime":1948.6950000000002,"body":"This what people are gonna love it."},{"startTime":1948.6950000000002,"endTime":1953.339,"body":"We've got a couple useless, they're gonna love it, and we're like we we hope it's true."},{"startTime":1953.339,"endTime":1954.941,"body":"We wish you the best of luck."},{"startTime":1954.941,"endTime":1956.3220000000001,"body":"We're here later."},{"startTime":1956.5130000000001,"endTime":1958.5410000000002,"body":"Yeah, we'll be we'll still be here."},{"startTime":1958.5410000000002,"endTime":1966.776,"body":"I thought folks in the UK are are better in actually thinking the go to market bits"},{"startTime":1958.5410000000002,"endTime":1966.776,"body":"earlier in the process."},{"startTime":1966.776,"endTime":1969.002,"body":"you know, it's a mix."},{"startTime":1969.002,"endTime":1975.7150000000001,"body":"say out of every ten people I speak to, there's one that is very logical and reasonable."},{"startTime":1976.535,"endTime":1978.266,"body":"And the rest are, I don't know."},{"startTime":1978.266,"endTime":1980.4270000000001,"body":"There's some there's a there's a gradient, right?"},{"startTime":1980.4270000000001,"endTime":1987.1200000000001,"body":"Like some of them are willing to do it, but then you kind of I feel like with some people"},{"startTime":1980.4270000000001,"endTime":1987.1200000000001,"body":"you cross over into the like, I wanna do all the things that you're talking about,"},{"startTime":1987.1200000000001,"endTime":1991.281,"body":"Anastasia, and then the majority are like, absolutely not."},{"startTime":1991.382,"endTime":1993.7920000000001,"body":"And then they and then they have a really hard time."},{"startTime":1993.7920000000001,"endTime":1994.141,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":1994.141,"endTime":2001.329,"body":"And then we either come back or you know or they they they push on, you know, they keep"},{"startTime":1994.141,"endTime":2001.329,"body":"they run out of money."},{"startTime":2001.329,"endTime":2002.1090000000002,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2003.2640000000001,"endTime":2003.882,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2003.882,"endTime":2006.0330000000001,"body":"well, I feel like I say I feel very validated."},{"startTime":2006.0330000000001,"endTime":2010.9560000000001,"body":"obviously one of the big things in all of this, and you've mentioned it already, is the"},{"startTime":2006.0330000000001,"endTime":2010.9560000000001,"body":"total addressable market."},{"startTime":2010.9560000000001,"endTime":2015.919,"body":"And we've given examples of people who are like, I'm my tech and one of the big ones is HR"},{"startTime":2010.9560000000001,"endTime":2015.919,"body":"Tech."},{"startTime":2015.919,"endTime":2024.604,"body":"We work a lot of HR Tech, you know, we're vertical agnostic, we can sell to anybody and"},{"startTime":2015.919,"endTime":2024.604,"body":"everyone, but actually that causes a lot of problems, especially if you're gonna try and"},{"startTime":2024.604,"endTime":2028.356,"body":"go after a new segment, because you actually can't be all things to everybody."},{"startTime":2028.356,"endTime":2030.467,"body":"So what are some of the conversations that you have around"},{"startTime":2030.467,"endTime":2034.8690000000001,"body":"that and how do you try and like convince people not to just try and market to everybody?"},{"startTime":2034.8690000000001,"endTime":2039.9940000000001,"body":"Yeah, I mean the the biggest one I think is the the messaging bit, right?"},{"startTime":2039.9940000000001,"endTime":2049.2850000000003,"body":"So if if you say you're vertically agnostic, that means you have to have because I mean"},{"startTime":2039.9940000000001,"endTime":2049.2850000000003,"body":"verticals are still different, right?"},{"startTime":2049.2850000000003,"endTime":2056.021,"body":"So y one if you for example do decide to do outbound, and you you say, Okay"},{"startTime":2056.021,"endTime":2064.393,"body":"The verticals are pretty pretty similar in a way that they always they all have a CFO, for"},{"startTime":2056.021,"endTime":2064.393,"body":"example, just making stuff up."},{"startTime":2064.393,"endTime":2071.258,"body":"then the question is still once you do outbound bit, what message are you sending them?"},{"startTime":2071.3179999999998,"endTime":2074.32,"body":"So is it the same for each vertical?"},{"startTime":2074.32,"endTime":2079.463,"body":"Probably not, because they have the CFO in in"},{"startTime":2079.973,"endTime":2089.458,"body":"finance vertical versus the CFO in the manufacturing vertical is probably different, ha"},{"startTime":2079.973,"endTime":2089.458,"body":"has a different problem."},{"startTime":2089.458,"endTime":2096.033,"body":"And I mean with the whole AI craze you're now able to personalize it, right?"},{"startTime":2096.033,"endTime":2105.059,"body":"So you still need to kind of even if you say okay I want to go for various verticals, you"},{"startTime":2096.033,"endTime":2105.059,"body":"still need to adapt the messaging."},{"startTime":2105.132,"endTime":2108.076,"body":"So that's that's one one point."},{"startTime":2108.076,"endTime":2123.389,"body":"and I think the the most interesting one is that or the what I see is why founders are"},{"startTime":2108.076,"endTime":2123.389,"body":"struggling to to do a clear or to define a clear ICP is that they think they will they"},{"startTime":2123.389,"endTime":2125.53,"body":"will leave money on the table."},{"startTime":2125.811,"endTime":2129.754,"body":"But actually the opposite is true because"},{"startTime":2130.0460000000003,"endTime":2142.867,"body":"you you will get more revenue from a good fit customer than if you're doing spray and pray"},{"startTime":2130.0460000000003,"endTime":2142.867,"body":"and and and vertical agnostic and and whatnot."},{"startTime":2142.867,"endTime":2149.118,"body":"so I think y you will see it in the numbers very quickly."},{"startTime":2149.31,"endTime":2152.661,"body":"and especially if you're early stage you need to just focus."},{"startTime":2152.661,"endTime":2154.292,"body":"You you cannot"},{"startTime":2154.928,"endTime":2167.204,"body":"put your you don't have a huge team to do multiple go to market motions, multiple"},{"startTime":2154.928,"endTime":2167.204,"body":"segments, 'cause you need to mm customize everything for each each segment, right?"},{"startTime":2167.481,"endTime":2168.291,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2168.332,"endTime":2168.9120000000003,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2168.9120000000003,"endTime":2176.257,"body":"It's interesting as well with the vertical agnostic thing, 'cause I think quite a lot of"},{"startTime":2168.9120000000003,"endTime":2176.257,"body":"the founders I speak to anyway would say, yeah, but we're doing okay."},{"startTime":2176.257,"endTime":2180.099,"body":"But actually if you if you doubled down you'd be doing more than okay, wouldn't you?"},{"startTime":2180.099,"endTime":2190.244,"body":"Because I think at the moment they probably don't look at things like the actual wastage"},{"startTime":2180.099,"endTime":2190.244,"body":"and the inefficiency in their marketing spend, in their the time their CSMs spend trying"},{"startTime":2190.244,"endTime":2194.727,"body":"to retain, like you say, bad fit customers in the sales cycle length with bad fit"},{"startTime":2190.244,"endTime":2194.727,"body":"customers."},{"startTime":2194.727,"endTime":2200.081,"body":"You know, there's probably like a bit of work that they could do there to kind of maybe"},{"startTime":2194.727,"endTime":2200.081,"body":"surface some of that stuff."},{"startTime":2200.081,"endTime":2204.406,"body":"I've actually been with a client who's done a repositioning and what they've discovered is"},{"startTime":2200.081,"endTime":2204.406,"body":"actually"},{"startTime":2204.406,"endTime":2213.543,"body":"Their products are great for businesses that have like deskless workers because they're"},{"startTime":2204.406,"endTime":2213.543,"body":"the customers that we retain the longest, that have the highest adoption of the product,"},{"startTime":2213.543,"endTime":2220.384,"body":"and they used to market like that, and they stopped because they wanted to go after"},{"startTime":2213.543,"endTime":2220.384,"body":"everybody, and they've taken a hit."},{"startTime":2220.384,"endTime":2221.3650000000002,"body":"There's churn."},{"startTime":2221.3650000000002,"endTime":2222.645,"body":"So I'm like"},{"startTime":2223.212,"endTime":2224.05,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":2224.05,"endTime":2228.974,"body":"repositioned ourselves back against like what the product's actually used for and the type"},{"startTime":2224.05,"endTime":2228.974,"body":"of customers that use it."},{"startTime":2228.974,"endTime":2235.702,"body":"So I think yeah, there's a lot there's a lot to to be learned for like actually being"},{"startTime":2228.974,"endTime":2235.702,"body":"like, no, no, no, it's okay to be that those people."},{"startTime":2235.702,"endTime":2236.763,"body":"Like it's good."},{"startTime":2236.763,"endTime":2240.4700000000003,"body":"It's a good thing that those people like your product and use it and you retain them."},{"startTime":2240.4700000000003,"endTime":2247.178,"body":"Because lifetime value is as important as the instant AR instant hit of like getting a"},{"startTime":2240.4700000000003,"endTime":2247.178,"body":"contract signed, isn't it?"},{"startTime":2247.178,"endTime":2247.753,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":2247.753,"endTime":2248.693,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2248.693,"endTime":2249.913,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2249.913,"endTime":2258.823,"body":"I mean, especially in times where now everyone is questioning how many tools and and"},{"startTime":2249.913,"endTime":2258.823,"body":"software you actually have within the company."},{"startTime":2258.823,"endTime":2269.96,"body":"but yeah, I feel like pulling the data, showing the founder, okay, see, based on the data,"},{"startTime":2258.823,"endTime":2269.96,"body":"we have a bunch of customers that are really not a good fit."},{"startTime":2269.96,"endTime":2271.1730000000002,"body":"We should let them go."},{"startTime":2271.1730000000002,"endTime":2273.4990000000003,"body":"I think that helps a lot."},{"startTime":2274.328,"endTime":2281.102,"body":"also mega scary and nobody wants to do it because like what do you mean we have to let go"},{"startTime":2274.328,"endTime":2281.102,"body":"of customers?"},{"startTime":2281.8450000000003,"endTime":2282.8070000000002,"body":"Wild."},{"startTime":2282.8070000000002,"endTime":2283.332,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2283.332,"endTime":2283.888,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2283.888,"endTime":2293.496,"body":"the word churn 'cause I feel like it's the thing that scares everyone, but actually there"},{"startTime":2283.888,"endTime":2293.496,"body":"is there should be a category of acceptable churn, which is basically bad fit customers."},{"startTime":2293.496,"endTime":2296.997,"body":"If they're a bad fit from the get go, it's not good for anybody."},{"startTime":2296.997,"endTime":2297.708,"body":"It's not good for them."},{"startTime":2297.708,"endTime":2304.55,"body":"Also, it creates like it can create other pro problems like reputational issues, which I"},{"startTime":2297.708,"endTime":2304.55,"body":"think people then don't think through."},{"startTime":2304.55,"endTime":2312.049,"body":"It's like actually if you've got a bad fit client and they're complaining all the time,"},{"startTime":2304.55,"endTime":2312.049,"body":"what are they actually saying to their network about your business?"},{"startTime":2312.049,"endTime":2314.59,"body":"So I I I do think that that like"},{"startTime":2315.003,"endTime":2321.567,"body":"thinking about it like that as well helps 'cause it's it is ultimately it's like if you"},{"startTime":2315.003,"endTime":2321.567,"body":"have good relationships with people, you can retain your clients."},{"startTime":2321.567,"endTime":2327.071,"body":"If you have good product, if you have good service, you know, and you retain people, then"},{"startTime":2321.567,"endTime":2327.071,"body":"people are gonna say good things about you."},{"startTime":2327.071,"endTime":2330.433,"body":"If you don't do that, they're gonna say bad things about you."},{"startTime":2330.433,"endTime":2334.483,"body":"Um which then makes it all even harder."},{"startTime":2334.483,"endTime":2337.343,"body":"Um I"},{"startTime":2337.48,"endTime":2338.4210000000003,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":2338.59,"endTime":2342.733,"body":"I I wish the flywheel had really taken off, guys."},{"startTime":2342.733,"endTime":2347.515,"body":"And said we're still stuck with this funnel mentality, aren't we?"},{"startTime":2347.87,"endTime":2349.3920000000003,"body":"it's been an awesome conversation, yeah."},{"startTime":2349.3920000000003,"endTime":2350.654,"body":"Super practical."},{"startTime":2350.654,"endTime":2357.01,"body":"so if you're listening to this, I hope you've got loads of takeaways and lots of things to"},{"startTime":2350.654,"endTime":2357.01,"body":"look at now that you've got some practical tips to go off."},{"startTime":2357.01,"endTime":2361.452,"body":"But just to wrap up the episode, we'd love to hear if you've got any marketing gossip for"},{"startTime":2357.01,"endTime":2361.452,"body":"us."},{"startTime":2361.452,"endTime":2365.699,"body":"So something that you love or you hate or something that you just can't stop thinking"},{"startTime":2361.452,"endTime":2365.699,"body":"about in the marketing world."},{"startTime":2365.699,"endTime":2371.902,"body":"Yeah, so what I hate is actually that everyone is doing the AI enabled outbound."},{"startTime":2372.417,"endTime":2375.161,"body":"feel like everyone is, we don't need marketing."},{"startTime":2375.161,"endTime":2385.257,"body":"We can just do, you know, a bunch of emails on certain target account lists and then we'll"},{"startTime":2375.161,"endTime":2385.257,"body":"we'll, you know, get our customers."},{"startTime":2385.359,"endTime":2392.944,"body":"and to be honest, I get like flooded with emails every week and I think and bad ones."},{"startTime":2393.082,"endTime":2393.6820000000002,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2393.6820000000002,"endTime":2403.779,"body":"very bad ones that are not even personalized and and so I I'm not even sure this this"},{"startTime":2393.6820000000002,"endTime":2403.779,"body":"channel or this motion will prevail."},{"startTime":2404.195,"endTime":2407.8360000000002,"body":"what I love is it's obviously the best time to be in tech."},{"startTime":2408.677,"endTime":2416.465,"body":"with everything you you you can automate like you can automate the boring stuff you can be"},{"startTime":2408.677,"endTime":2416.465,"body":"more creative now we're"},{"startTime":2416.465,"endTime":2425.415,"body":"playing around currently with A AI agent services, so building agents for nurturing, for"},{"startTime":2416.465,"endTime":2425.415,"body":"for lead routing and so on."},{"startTime":2425.415,"endTime":2427.167,"body":"So I think that's a lot of fun."},{"startTime":2427.167,"endTime":2433.475,"body":"if you yeah are courageous to test it and if you know how to to set this up."},{"startTime":2433.475,"endTime":2435.207,"body":"I think it's a lot of fun."},{"startTime":2435.207,"endTime":2438.639,"body":"Brings back the fun into our profession."},{"startTime":2438.791,"endTime":2444.635,"body":"It's it's almost a bit like use you get to play with all this really cool tech, but please"},{"startTime":2438.791,"endTime":2444.635,"body":"use it in the right way."},{"startTime":2444.635,"endTime":2445.607,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2445.7290000000003,"endTime":2449.4230000000002,"body":"Yes, I mean you still need to to know your strategy, right?"},{"startTime":2449.4230000000002,"endTime":2460.294,"body":"You still need to know your ICP, you still need to understand the buyer decision process,"},{"startTime":2449.4230000000002,"endTime":2460.294,"body":"you need to understand d you draft your positioning 'cause that is essentially the context"},{"startTime":2460.294,"endTime":2469.005,"body":"that you have to give the LLMs and all the tools out there, because just using the the"},{"startTime":2460.294,"endTime":2469.005,"body":"tools won't won't help you."},{"startTime":2469.005,"endTime":2469.775,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2470.116,"endTime":2471.567,"body":"Thank you so much, Anastasia."},{"startTime":2471.567,"endTime":2473.419,"body":"This has been a wonderful conversation."},{"startTime":2473.419,"endTime":2482.105,"body":"we didn't even get to, you know, creating a new category, which is I feel like the the"},{"startTime":2473.419,"endTime":2482.105,"body":"ultimate version of a new segment, but that's the whole of the conversation."},{"startTime":2482.105,"endTime":2483.165,"body":"don't do it."},{"startTime":2486.108,"endTime":2487.909,"body":"unless you have a lot of money."},{"startTime":2487.969,"endTime":2491.113,"body":"We tried just unless you have a lot of money and time, don't do it."},{"startTime":2491.113,"endTime":2491.841,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2491.841,"endTime":2496.715,"body":"thank you so much for this, and yeah, all of Anastasia's details will be down in the show"},{"startTime":2491.841,"endTime":2496.715,"body":"notes."},{"startTime":2496.715,"endTime":2499.622,"body":"thank you so much for joining us, and we will see you in the next episode."}]}