Where Knowledge Systems Meet, Country Heals: A Panel at Grounded Festival WA

Straight after the Regenerating Food Systems conference you’ve been hearing from in recent weeks, we headed south for the Grounded Festival. It was my privilege to host proceedings there on the last day, in one of the two marquees by the lake, on the wonderful Galloway Springs Farm near Bridgetown. There were three panel conversations there that the team at Grounded has generously allowed me to share here. 

Those panels happened to be such emotional, substantial and funny pinnacles of what had been an extraordinary week as a whole here in WA – from Government House, through the conference at the city Stadium, to this festival in the field. 

These panel conversations offer something of a debrief on the week, some significant early outcomes and resolutions, and the spirit that had summed along the way. 

First up, then, the morning panel, still reverberating for many, featuring three people who had been at the three major events – and some others - through the week: 

• West Australians of the Year, farmers and previous podcast guests, Di and Ian Haggerty; and
• Noongar and Thin-ma Warriyanka woman and also a previous podcast guest, Heidi Mippy. 

On the topic of First Nations Integration into the Food System. And how this yarn builds. 

Chapter markers & transcript.

Recorded 20 September 2025.

Title image: AJ, Heidi, Di and Ian on stage (pic: Alan Benson).

See more photos on the episode web page, including the illustration by Brenna Quinlan, and for more behind the scenes, become a supporting listener below.

If you’d like to see that image of the Wagyl on Heidi’s first visit to the Haggerty farm, head to episode 143.

Music:

Barefoot, by Mark Grundhoefer (from Artlist).

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.

The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests.

Join us for a journey on the Murray River, Australia, for the first Confluence 2026.

Pre-roll music: River, by Onyx Music (sourced from Artlist). 

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting the scene
• 3:14 What’s burning for Heidi right now?
• 6:11 If all farms went regen today, it still wouldn’t heal Country
• 7:17 Why Ag Is Key To Healing Country
• 8:02 Offsets, Emissions And Pushing Back
• 9:07 Heidi’s extraordinary first visit to the Haggerty farm
• 11:35 The Rainbow Serpent Experience
• 12:59 Di’s experience of that time
• 14:04 Ian’s message to farmers thinking or fearful about connecting with First Nations
• 14:56 Songlines Walk And Shared Awakening
• 17:31 Reaching Older Farmers With Example
• 20:04 Place Of Welcome And Transformations
• 21:53 The issue of land title, ownership & security of tenure
• 22:44 So how do we connect in practice – farmers, First Nations & all of us?
• 25:11 That Country needs grasses more than trees
• 26:56 We do need to go slow to go fast
• 28:11 Hunting, Food As Medicine, Ceremonies
• 30:43 Shifting gear on the many opportunities when we collaborate
• 32:31 A dream of merging families
• 34:11 Working with the Governor
• 34:41 The paramount theme from the conference into the festival
• 37:14 Q1 from the floor: Dreamtime Value And Accreditation
• 38:29 Creating market systems with culture integrated
• 40:26 Q2 (Sadie Chrestman) – do you have dreams of where this might take you all? (Di first)
• 42:54 A new story embracing labour intensive economies as connection?
• 43:54 The satellites don’t pick up native grasses
• 44:29 Ian’s dream – who wants to join them?
• 47:39 Finance Barriers And Land At Risk
• 48:27 Heidi’s dream
• 51:41 Hopes For Children And Healing
• 52:52 Q3 (comment from Barry Green)
• 53:19 Q4 (comment from Virginia Kelleher): Audience pledges & hope
• 54:11 Closing thoughts – Ian first
• 54:59 Di
• 55:05 Launch of the Alliance for Human and Planetary Health
• 57:49 Heidi’s sum of the week as a whole – and call from here

Transcript

AJ: 1:41

G'day, Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, your ad-free, freely available, listener-supported podcast, exploring how people are regenerating the systems and stories we live by. Straight after the Regenerating Food Systems conference you've been hearing from in recent weeks, we headed south for the Grounded Festival. It was my privilege to host proceedings there on the last day in one of the two marquees by the lake on the beautiful Galloway Springs farm near Bridgetown. And there were three panel conversations there that the team at Grounded has generously allowed me to share here. Because those panels happen to be such emotional, substantial and funny pinnacles of what had been a remarkable week as a whole here in WA. From Government House, through the conference in the city stadium, to this festival in the field. These panel conversations offer something of a debrief on the week, some significant early outcomes and resolutions, and the spirit that it summed along the way. First up then, the extraordinary morning panel. Still reverberating for many, featuring three people who had been at the three major events and some others through the week. West Australians of the Year, farmers, friends, and no strangers to this podcast, also longtime supporters of it, Dianne and Ian Haggerty, and Noongar and Thinmar Warianka Woman, friend and also no stranger to this podcast, Heidi Mippy, on the topic of First Nations integration into the food system. And how this yarn builds. Let's head over to the farm. G'day everyone! Welcome to a very special session, this one on First Nations integration into the food system. I want to um start by introducing the couple on the left there, on my left, who probably need no introducing. Our current West Australians of the Year. Let's start with a big hand for that, eh? Unbelievable. It's funny after decades of work and innovation and often being alone with it, that that I should come home from a stint away and they're West Australians of the Year. It seems to be indicative from what I found in just the few weeks I've been back of a real step change. And I've had that echoed from a bunch of people in the last few days. And perhaps, yeah, exemplified here too, with something that wasn't here before and is in full colour right now. It's just magnificent to be part of. I also want to introduce then the woman to my immediate left. For those who don't know or didn't see her yesterday, perhaps, uh, a Noonga and Dinma Warianga woman with cultural ties to the southwest here and upper Gascoigne regions of WA. Vastly experienced across all sectors, award-winning in multiple awards too. I would be here for a while if I was reading them out. Volunteers her time to several boards and advisory groups, particularly passionate about Noongar-led restoration, and within that, the economic opportunities for Noongar people through nature-based solutions. Just returned too from a global food sovereignty conference in Sri Lanka relating to the PhD she's currently undertaking. Let's give a massive hand for Heidi Nippy. And I want to lead off this conversation with Heidi for obvious reasons, probably, but also knowing that you've advocated in this space for years, certainly as long as I've known you and beyond, with struggles. I'll never forget the story of the rifle pulled on you on country at one point on a farm. And here we are talking about this topic that you talked about yesterday in your session. But for those who weren't there, I wonder if we can start this one with a little primer of how you're seeing this now and what you're the message you're sending now.

Heidi: 5:21

Thank you, AJ, and thanks everyone for taking the time to come and listen and be part of the yarn. Where do I see things now? So I I work across both restoration, conservation, and ag spaces. I find the restoration spaces and conservation spaces a little a little more boring. The reason I'm doing that is because I think the greatest opportunity for us to collaborate and work more quickly to heal a larger amount of country is in this space. So that's where I'm kind of leaning in into into the most, not to say I'm not involved in the other things because I am, and I'm also fairly passionate about breaking down some of those um silos in industry and starting to looking at country um holistically rather than through industries.

AJ: 6:13

You said yesterday that if all farms went regen now, it still wouldn't heal country. What were you getting at?

Heidi: 6:21

Yeah, the context that I was saying this in, and um I'm not always the person to be politically correct, so I just probably um say that again, um, was around the offset programs that we have squeezing into ag industry, and that even if we allowed those offset programs to run on everyone's farms and people's properties, that it still wouldn't be enough for the emissions that we have in those big industries. So I was really trying to say, in a polite way, we need to push back against the woodsides and chevrons and those who are forcing their way into our country and our landscapes, doing some pretty average restoration efforts and maybe think about how we reshape the story moving forward and put more pressure back on them to reduce emissions in the first instance.

AJ: 7:16

And you also talked about the level to which we can just do the healing of country together now. We can choose it together now. Farmers that have the title and First Nations that have the country. And you've been broaching this with the people next to you. How's that happened and and how's it feeling? Like, where's it going?

Heidi: 7:40

So, like it happens by invitation, right? Like uh Diane and had been inviting or had extended an invitation probably years before I went to their property just to come out and visit, like the no expectation, just you want to come and um meet us and sit on country. And then you know, I was busy like we all are, and then there was an opportunity where I felt like oh, I could actually just redirect a little bit of my travel and I'll um come and visit and and participate in their field day. Um, so that happened, it literally happened like that last minute. Um, and there I was, and magic happens when you're on country, and everyone knows this who's on country, right? And I I um have my own experiences which I shared a little bit yesterday, and so when I was on Diane's property, there was a connection that from that I can never ignore now. Like it's um it's a obligation for me to maintain that connection and relationship. So we slowly, slowly, because Diane are very busy, and I'm very busy, everyone's very busy. Um in our own time, we just keep the conversation going and the thinking and exploring and connecting and our families connecting and doing the things that we do, and that's like I'm real happy with that. Um I I couldn't really tell you what the outcomes are because we're not looking for outcomes, we're we're building the story together, and it's still early stages because I think it's going to be a long long-term journey.

AJ: 9:11

The first visit. How was it? And and yeah, go there.

Heidi: 9:16

All right.

AJ: 9:16

Full license.

Heidi: 9:18

I've got to try to remember this properly now. So the first visit, um, Dianean were very generous and said I could stay um at their house at out right near them. And I'd never never met Diane Ian and and no any hardly any of the people who were at this field day. How many people did you have on that field day? 170. So there's a lot of people. And I came in later, um, went to sleep in the night time, and this is before I was asleep. I'll lay in the bed, and there was like this cool saddle there, and I remember looking at this. That was real saddle. I was like, looking what how I'm gonna go if I wake up in the night and see that thing there. Um, anyway, when I was trying to fall asleep, I uh had an experience where a waggle, which is like a rainbow serpent, um, came across my body from this side. I was actually laying like this in this room, and it came across and sat on my chest, and then it went this way. Um and I could yeah, there was lots of things I could share with you about what I sensed from that waggle. But what I knew was that that waggle was trying to get to a water source that was nearby. And in the morning when we woke up, Di and I went out to get some native grasses, didn't we, to bring in for the field day. So I I took a big risk thinking, oh, I wonder if I should share this story with Di. She'll probably never invite me back again. Um and I did. I shared this story about the waggle and I asked about water, like is there a water source near to the house? Well I already knew there was, right, because the waggle told me, but I wanted to ask Dye. And that's when um that's when I was told about this Yamahole, which was right at the in that um granite outcrop just to the left of the property, very close. So we went for a walk to the nyamahole, and the well, you came. Some of the people here, the soils blokes with the camera, got the drones up, and we went out to see the nyamahole. Um, but I didn't ask to be shown exactly where it was, we just walked over towards it because I like to feel country. So we went walking, and I did not go like from here to there. I went like this, or we went like this, and then douge, and I kind of looking back towards the property again. And when I looked down, we were standing on this rock, the shape of a snake's head. This is a true story. You can go and look at the footage if you don't believe me, because if anyone starts walking out, I'm thinking Heidi's not telling the truth, but this is true. The drawing footage is pretty amazing, and where we walked, so we saw a flower where we started to walk, this little red thing, I don't even know what it is. And we went like this, came back, douche, and that same flower was there both at the tip of the snake's body and at the tip of the snake's head. So kind of lots of things else happened relating to that, but um that was the moment I think that brought us together. It brought the knowledge systems together that no matter whether you believe in them or trust in them or not, you can't deny them when you experience it. And I am very lucky to have those experiences with non-Aboriginal people on country often, and for us that was like helped to um form the start of our relationship and that our our joint connection and responsibility for country.

AJ: 12:45

Thank you. I believe your microphone's about to go flat too. It was the wrong battery, so let's swap. You take that one, you take that one, and I'll go this one. And uh give it a try, because I'm gonna throw it to you guys now. That day with this experience, and then the next yeah, the next morning walking around. What did it mean to you to connect in this way with yeah, the other knowledge system, the ancient knowledge system on this country?

Di: 13:14

It was an incredibly powerful time. Um a few of us went out the next morning as well. Um Heidi was generous enough to share her knowledge and understanding with a number of people that were keen to be participating. And we all, well, it was an emotional response, a physical response, um, just the shivers up your spine, and you could just feel the power of that moment. Yeah, and it's still a very powerful moment for all of us, and um yeah, just really consolidated the strength of the relationship. And then Heidi was very kind to take the whole group out and walk some song lines and explain some parts within the landscape and what it all meant, and everybody felt it male, female from all parts of the the nation. There was people from Queensland there and um all over the place, and yeah, everyone was incredibly moved, and we're just so grateful for that opportunity.

AJ: 14:09

I think about the 30 years that you've been farming before this happens, and I think about all the other farmers, you know, that Joshua was talking about earlier that an aging demographic that haven't yet experienced it. I wonder, Ian, almost in a sense, what would you tell them about we know there's a bit of fear out there, I guess we know perhaps there's a bit of um where would I start even if I wanted to? What would you say?

Ian: 14:34

I think we've um yeah, I it's a really hard one. Um I actually fall into that definition of that old white farmer that was talked about earlier on today. So, which is probably about I don't know, it'll just take a rough guess. 70% of the name on title um across Australia is an old white man farmer. So that that's a big demographic. And we've got to rent even though they might have totally other views, we've got to introduce them into the conversation in another way, and that's through leading and showing and making sure that they feel comfortable to come and observe that field day. But there was people from all over Australia that had flown into that field day, and it's um and I know there was people that probably had didn't have the right views there, they were just coming to look at try and find an agricultural edge so they can make more money, you know, reduce the synthetic fertiliser or something. But what that did, the power of that, but what that did, we changed the lens of that field day, if you remember rightly, AJ. And the lens of that field day was the more connection to country, and um that was a major changing point because we didn't actually really give a shit what those are what of someone that might take the wrong thing out of it. And there was a couple of people that actually I knew that actually did, and I copped a fair bit of flack after it, and I said, Well, just too bad, you know, it's just this is where we are heading, these are the connections that we need. So really shame that more of them the next day when everyone had gone home and that we actually took that walk on that song line. And there was guys in that group that um, you know, were pretty oh yeah, right here, you know, let's have a look. But Heidi walked us down. We I think you you did the song line first with the drone to a degree, and then we followed down, and there was these big boulders and rocks, and um Heidi said, Well, you'd explain it better than me, but men can't walk in between those two boulders, right? That's not not right. But so what you got, we had to go to the left of that, and um and everyone's there, yeah. Anyway, so we sat back and I sat back and watched. I know Heidi was watching, and all these brazen guys, not one was able to. By the time they got close enough to it, all turned at the last minute and walked the other side of the boulders. So it was very, very powerful to them.

AJ: 17:11

You guys started at Wiley when you came back to the wheat belt from your time in the Kimberley, which you know bears mentioning that it was your time with First Nations up there that really flicked your minds into a different way of seeing things. You come back to the wheat belt, you score a farm that was almost laughing stock, banks telling you you'll never make it, it's so small it doesn't even warrant a mention, much less warrant more capital injected. Here you are today. Yet you moved from that farm with one of the properties that you acquired and have turned around. It's been the story of you now, 60,000 plus acres, incredible. And you stayed at one of these new farms. You created a new home because you felt something different at this place. The very place that Heidi turns up and experiences what she experienced. And then through the story that Heidi was saying, you learned something about the country and what you'd been feeling that you didn't have the frame of reference for around the way that the serpent was actually positioned. Heidi, can I get you to start by talking to that and then you guys to go on with what it informed you and what it made sense of for your new home?

Heidi: 18:16

You're really challenging my um memory here, AJ. Um I I do remember when when we were walking there, and you know, like I I feel the experience and I'm I'm hearing what Country's um telling me. And what I loved about that space right near the house was um country was asking for this space to be the space of welcome. Like I can and I could almost already hear my girls um singing and dancing there, and and that and that there were people sitting around um like on first arrival and just chilling, you know, like before they go any further. And it was it was a really happy space, actually. So um I sh and I share, you know, my res the responsibility is that I share this with um Diane and who are living at this property, uh, which I have, and um hoping actually to take my girls out there in a few weeks during the holidays to do exactly what what we had discussed and open that space up for for everyone's arrival, just to be held by country, held by spirit, held by all the old people that have been there for long before any of us, and um and then move forward in the business that they do.

AJ: 19:29

And over to you guys. What did it inform you about what you'd already sensed and indeed experienced with some of your people about how people were relating to that country and if this made sense of it for you?

Di: 19:40

When Heidi um mentioned it about it being a place of welcome, it just made so much sense to us. Um that property where that those residences are, we actually don't own that parcel of land. We leased that from another family who's given us a thousand-year lease because they're a family that believe in longevity. Um and we actually own the parcel of land that we own that's got a house is 35 kilometres away. Uh, we farm that land, but our son and daughter-in-law are there with their children. But it just grabbed us the property, and then when Heidi comes and describes the place of welcome, and every time we'd had people come visit the farm, and particularly if they had the chance to stay at the farm, it was really quite a transformative experience, and we had that time and time again, people would feel uplifted, and it's it was really the the land, you know, welcoming people and helping them to explore who they really were. We've had a lot of young interns come through and young people wanting to experience you know what's going on on the farm. But they get there and some of them made life change, you know, career change choices, and um even Beck herself, when her her daughter was going out with our young son Matthew, um Beck came and visited a school teacher, and then she made the decision after one visit that I'm gonna get out of teaching, I'm gonna work on the farm.

AJ: 21:03

It was a few years ago now, eh?

Di: 21:04

Yeah, Beck's been with us five or six years now, and you think, wow, and but we've had that happen so many times, so really it is it's that place of welcome, people feeling safe and cared for by what's around them, and it has it's just blown us away. And you just think, well, we've just got to be able to offer this to more people to come along and be part of, so that's how we're trying to work together, I guess, ultimately, and find more ways that these things can happen. I mean, we're all constrained by, as Heidi was saying, with time, and you know, we've got to create a world, a society where we've got da da da, you've got to meet to, you know, cover your costs and all the rest of it. But we just want to keep having these conversations so we can perhaps be more creative with how we can come together, do more things together, and change that lens. Because at the end of the day, we're we're all land stewards, and I know Anne's pretty strong on this one too. I mean, we've there is a system that you've got to have title to the land. The reason we've been trying to buy up land is so that it couldn't be taken away all the time because we had a long history of leasing and you just had no security, you couldn't follow anything through. And we said, whenever we got a chance, at least if our name's on that title, no one can say, well, you know, you're gone or you've got to pay more to stay here or whatever else, and you just couldn't, you know, maintain any security there. But now we we have, and we just want to be able to then yeah, develop more going forward.

AJ: 22:26

Oh geez, there's so much in that, isn't there? I almost want to throw immediately to you, Heidi, to just pick up that thing about because I mean everything that Dies just said, it's going red again. Is anyone there? No one's there to even help now.

Heidi: 22:37

Ah Hello, it's trying to shut me up. You take this up. I'll keep fighting.

AJ: 22:41

I think this one's solid. You take that. Uh I'll take this and I've got back up if I think. Are you on? Yes, okay, I got back up. Just keep with this because it helps Matt get his good audio. So everything that Di just talked about, you can't like that doesn't work for you. So you're in a situation where you're you're connecting with farmers like that. You're not on the title. So let's perhaps hold that. Maybe you want to comment on it, but but let's hold it there at least as we explore the practicalities of how you've gone on to think about what how do we connect then?

Heidi: 23:15

Okay, so there's a few ways that I'll um I'll look at this, right? And um maybe I'll first start with that um my connection to Dianean's property is there whether the Diane Ian even like it or not. Not to say they don't, because clearly they they are very welcoming, but um and country called me there. I don't think Dianean itself purely on their own called me there. Country called me there, and I'll take my children back. I'm not Balladong, they're on Balladong country, my children are balladong, uh as you know, of through their father's line. So there's a responsibility there that just continue. And that we don't Dianean don't pay me to go to their place to do cultural stuff. I'm not saying we need to register this site because we just found this. None of this is happening. So I don't want people to know that too, just to take the fear away of maybe some of the thinking about what happens when nyungars or black fellows step on your property and find really interesting things that you already knew were there, like grinding stones and artifacts that you like to pretend maybe aren't there. We don't need to be afraid of having these conversations. Um we currently lease a little 10-acre property where we're doing seed production of our nyungar food and medicine plant, so that's limited in its capacity. We lease that because we can't afford, or we there's a few reasons why we can't buy a property or even that property, and that property is one that has caveats on a little bit like what we were talking about. Um Josh was talking about before. It's not an ILS seed property, but it has got caveats. There's big risks in that, also, right? Like we're planting seeds, seeds take time to produce. We've we've been broken into 12 times, had lots of things stolen. We can't upgrade security because we don't have money. Like I'm a one-income family, so uh and I work and I'm doing a PhD full-time and I'm running this property. So whatever money I have goes into that property, and and I'm not telling you that to feel sorry for me at all because um what I'm saying is we're doing that because we want to do that, and we can start to produce some seed that we want to put back on country. Why do I connect with people like Diane is because they have good soil or better soil than the rest of destroyed um mostly destroyed Nungar country, and um and they have more property to be able to produce at scale, particularly grasses. So we talk a lot about, you know, I I no, I won't say sorry for how I speak about woods, woodsite and chevron and the likes, but they that country is not tree country. We need to be putting more grasses back into country. So my my focus is on grasses and tubers. Um, and there's only a small on a 10-acre property limited to what we can produce, so we need to partner with people, but people who got good soil to produce good grasses that we want to eat, no one wants to grow shit like that. Simple. Sorry, excuse my French. So um, so this is why we have to work together, right? And and it's not about ownership, but I talked yesterday about generational wealth because yes, we do want to own our own property, and I'd love my like my kids. Um and the succession planning conversation was also happening yesterday, right? I've I'm lucky that I've got three kids that love being on country, but they love that in different ways because it's part of their cultural identity, and in and it is also part of their responsibility. So I want to be able to leave something for them to be able to carry on with and grandkids, etc. too. But there's so many barriers to to getting there. Instead of feeling sorry for ourselves or going, well, we won't do anything. I'm just like, oh well shit, let's just put plants in the ground, we'll do what we can. If we have to move, we move and we work with other people that can help because we can't just keep doing nothing. I talk double can, double can go slowly, but we do have to go slowly to go fast because time is running out on the crisis of the current um state of the environment. So we do need to do more quicker, but we just got to do take the time to have the conversations to do them in the right way.

AJ: 27:16

And in more in more recent times, your partner Cleve, who was going to be here today, unfortunately couldn't make it, is doing some hunting on the farm as well.

Heidi: 27:25

Yeah, so the blokes go out and um hunt kangaroo at the moment, that's what they've been hunting. That's been important because originally, when we got our property, the first thing we wanted to do was set up a little abattoir for our kangaroo and emu, and then we try to get some funding. That was all too difficult, and because we didn't have um title on the land, there was also complications there. So we did a little bit of pivot on our business model and went, okay, we'll do some restoration stuff. So we salvaged some belga or grass trees and chew it that would have been bulldozed. So now we have maybe about six, seven hundred belga ready to go back into restoration. So we just looked at how we could have opportunities to get some cash flow to fund the things we wanted to do. So the meat issue has been parked, but we still hunt because we well, I eat kangaroo, that's an and I eat the kangaroo that comes from the Haggade's because they got grey kangaroos not as tasty, and they've got some better kangaroos on their property in the northern wheat belt. Um, and that meat is important for us, it's good for our health, it's what I've always grown up on. Can I lovely kangaroos up that way too? Um, and it's good yeah, a health and diet. So we do it if we have um we have been hunting on other people's properties as well, other farmers who ask to come and cull the kangaroos. If I don't know anyone here manage kangaroos on their properties at the moment and get one of those commercial people in, just go shh like like that way, what do you call machine gun style? And then leave them in a big heap. Yeah, we don't do that. We actually um we'll kill the kangaroos, and they are at pest numbers, right? So it's a sustainable harvest for us, means we could take a lot if we wanted to. So we can go um and manage this issue on people's property and provide food back to our community and elders. So we're just not selling it, we just give the food because you're not meant to sell it because it hasn't been processed through the way that um wadlers or white people want us or government want us to process, even though we've been eating it this way for a long time. I'll break all the rules, don't maybe don't record that bit.

AJ: 29:30

Well, this brings to mind what Matthew Evans quipped, is he even here? I don't think he is at the conference, you know, that no one had ever killed, cooked, and eaten an animal in in the same place on this country before. And the but the story that comes with that, that food is dangerous, as distinct from food is medicine, which is everything you're going at at your PhD. It's the it's like well, it's it's the old story, but completely flipping this story that we've been embedded in for a bit.

Heidi: 29:56

Yeah, and the the other bit is like I had a my first grand uh son, so my sister's one of my older sisters' um son's baby, he's not mine, but still that's my grandson. And so I made him a little booker or kangaroo skin that I um that I told a story for how he came into this uh earth side um in a ceremony and made this for him and gift it to him in ceremony. So the boys eat the food um go hunting for the kangaroo, but I'm interested in the bookers to do you know, bringing our young our young people uh um into life in this way and going through ceremonies. So there's this whole thing about sustainability around how we use um products, and there's many things, examples I can give, but that's kind of one of the things men go out hunting, but I need the kangaroo skins, and the ladies will do what we want to do with them. And there's so many ways that like I don't do everything, but if blokes are out getting this kangaroo and they bring kangaroo skins back, and then some other business, young our business says, Well, I want to use the kangaroo skins to do stuff, that's kind of what we're trying to set up at our place is that other people can have their business to do things because I want to do what I want to do, but there's so much opportunity there. This whole circular circular economy people talk about. Well, that's really comes from culture, right? Sustainability and how we use things, it's all there. So there's so many opportunities when we collaborate.

AJ: 31:19

Bang, this is the language you guys have used for years, right? Inviting people in of all cultures, origins, and so forth. And indeed, that's what I mean you alluded to Beck before, that sort of growing too, which is brilliant. More recently, I mean very recently, um, the conversation sort of shifted gear. I'm thinking with Oral Maguire in particular, just the other night out of the Government House event where you were honored on Monday night. And Heidi, you are present. And I know you guys are sharing some of this conversation. And even, you know, we talk about kangaroos in plague proportions. I see Dave Pollock in the front row here in the conversations you've been striking up here because the dingo's been, I mean, remember you saying, Dave, there's no silver bullet with this stuff, but there's something that goes close, you know, where you are, and it's been the dingo. I was hearing from Jeff Power just this morning that they're struggling to manage their land in an appropriate way, and Michelle McManus here because of the plague proportions of ruse there. So there's all these elements of the system, but with you guys, I'm curious if you can, to the extent you can talk to what's hot off the press, in a sense, this this challenge of what next and how to really take that next step into this domain. That's right. It was Oral and Ian that had this yarn. So Ian, over to you, mate.

Ian: 32:35

Yeah, um, we don't really know what's next, and we don't want to know not what's next, because then we're planning the future and we've actually got to go where it takes us. Um while we were talking about country, the country that we're on, we don't choose country, country chooses us. You know, so we're just there as custodians to look after that country, and any country that's come into our care has actually come to us, not us go and get it. So we don't choose totally where this is going to go, but what we do is we choose to work together as one. You know, I couldn't be any more of a white man than what's out there. And um it's about white man and black man working together in a combined force, and we don't know where it's going to take us, but all we know is that we have to have the conversation. We have to work together. You know, we talk about we have Oral and I have the dream, and we'll be working towards this of merging our families, you know, merging in together to take all this forward. You know, um, you know, on his land now that he actually has got name on, um, he wants these sheep, the sheep that we run that's run for so many generations on this, and and the knowledge what to do with those sheep. So it's all this sharing, and somehow we're gonna massage this through. And all as I see our role is as together, Heidi, Orl, all ourselves, is actually trying to set an example. Now, not say we're gonna get it totally right all the time, but we've just got to work together and set that example. Now, why there's all other things and around it that might argue all around it, but too bad. We've just got to set this example and go forward. And that example is also why we do this on country, we have the conversations at the other end of town as well, as white and black people that work together. So um, this is where it's been really good. Um, our governor, her excellent his excellency Chris Dawson and Mrs. Dawson, they have been so on side and connected to bring in and open opportunities for us together to have these op to have these conversations.

AJ: 35:01

It strikes me so much that there are these benefits that are so striking both ways. And they go from learning about the country you've been sitting on and sensing, but not not knowing in that way that Heidi brought to the table, to these the functional aspects, I suppose, early functional aspects of the hunt and whatever, um, native grasses, but then to this you alluded to it before, Heidi, and it was I I reckon it was perhaps even the paramount theme out of the conference for those who perhaps weren't there, region WA conference in the couple of days prior to this, and that was you said the new knowledge system that we need in the new context that we're in with bringing the cultures together. And that was indeed the theme of well has been the theme of a bunch of work over the years, and and there was a book that happened to be at the conference that had brought to mind, which was Songlines, The Power and the Promise, that headed off the first knowledge series, volume of books, outstanding volume of books, and it had the same premise to transcend the divide by bringing our powerful, the most sophisticated knowledge system, arguably ever, with the power of the Western knowledge system, bring it together and create, I'll use your words, Heidi, new knowledge system. And that the benefits go from across the spectrum, if you like, into the domain that arguably is the most needed domain, in fact, essential. And Walter McGuire said that at the top of the conference in his welcome, didn't he? If we don't do that, yeah, the juggernaut will continue to go the way it's going. But the promise of doing that is immense. It really hits me, and I see you three sitting here today as sort of evidence of just broaching it and I mean merging families. I mean this is the starts to echo of the kinship structures that you've you've been trying to share with us and that we would be I mean they already think of us as part of it. That's why they're they're not bearing arms against us still, which who could almost we could understand that, no? If the want for revenge was still strong. But it's not. And why isn't it? Because the sense of kinship means you're here now, and Oral was saying this to me the other day, you're here now, you're kin. And that we would we would be family like that. Yeah, that's um unbelievable. And the promise of that just blows my mind really and excites me, frankly. Let's take that juncture to go to you guys. What would you like to bring in at this point?

Questioner from Kangaroo Island: 37:22

Wow, well done, thank you so much, and very well interviewed as well. So uh a great great topic. Um, something uh that was come come to me a few years ago. I was asked by a great mentor if there's one thing that you could do successfully and not fail at it, what would it be? I had about ten, but the thing that was for me was that came to me, and I want to put it to you guys, is dream time accreditation was the the word that came to me. Um so my my question to you guys, I guess, is Heidi can't be everywhere, can't be at every Haggerty's farm. So is there something like we're organic accredited, we're regen ag accredited, we're all there's so many accreditations, and the vision that I had was um a First Nations image or like a painting on my wool bale, stenciled onto my wool bale, and it's sold as it can be called anything, but sold as dream time accredited wool. Um and that actually means would mean something to me rather than being organic or doctor, that's all great, but that what's the thing that goes even deeper for Australian farmers than the soil, the water, all that sort of stuff. So is that something that has been talked about or is that something that's potentially possible?

Heidi: 38:32

It's probably not the one thing that I want to do, but yes, we've been and and I and actually we've had this conversation too, um, with Diane Ian. But so we heard from Commonland earlier in the conference, we've been talking about carbon projects, we've been talking about biodiversity and nature and all these things, um, and what those values and returns are and how we value country. I am particularly interested in highlighting through my research, well, I already know the answer. The answer is that cultural and spiritual values are missing from all those systems. But they don't it so I think there's probably another another framework or method that we should use, and it's almost like if we're if we're commercialising things, which we are because we've got these markets, then we look at us at creating our own system where we can, you know, like an our own accu system that captures the cultural and spiritual with economics, um, social, environmental, right? Like that that is a market, and I feel like someone needs to be a first mover and make that happen. But there's got to be integrity in that. So, like, you can't do that without um mob and simple. And we've got all the expertise already on the other framework, so so that's a bit I'm particularly passionate about, but I struggle with how do we put uh a price on or a value on the cultural and spiritual. So if we start to look at impact, I think that's where I'm really interested in. Um, and we had conversations around scaling, and I don't also don't believe that scaling up is a sign of success. I think scaling deep is, and to me, what that means is how how deep the impact is that you're making. So it's a big piece of work. I'll address a little bit of in my research, and other people are kind of working on things like that too. Um, so I think there's great opportunity there. It has to have integrity and it's got to be led by mob. And that's my view. But I'd love to see that happening. And we and we know that Aboriginal premiums are what 40-something per cent, so it's worth doing, but it's got to be done properly.

AJ: 40:29

Soy.

Question from Sadie Chrestman: 40:30

Um Ian, you said you don't have plans, which is something that Matthew and I can relate to. Um but dreams. Uh Di, Heidi, Ian, uh, do you have a a a dream of where these conversations might take you? And you can, you know, interpret the word dream as widely or as narrowly as you you'd like.

Di: 40:50

Yeah, we certainly have lots of dreams, Sadie, and um fortunately some parts just come together nicely, and other ones you've just got to keep talking and dreaming and um sharing, I guess. We have a magnificent landscape out there, as everyone here would recognise. It's got so much opportunity, so much that we can, you know, gain from it and have joy from, but the diversity of foods and so forth. I mean, w we've simplified in you know our industrial farming practices that what's recognised as being of value out of that landscape for such a long period of time, and you think that's just been crazy. We've narrowed it down, we've narrowed down our health outcomes, our cultural outcomes, our societal outcomes. You know, let's it's hard, but we're gonna have to flip it on its head. But the the country's there to do it, um, the people and the desire there to do it. We're just gonna overcome some of those constraints that we've put around ourselves, like we're saying with land ownership and all those kind of things, um, some of the constraints we've placed on all the requirements we expect to have when you actually look, we can have a very simplified life and just be nourished by the food, the landscape, and the relationships we have is actually really enough. But we've sort of been led down a path of technology and you know the next shiny thing that we all must have, which is all load of bunkum. But anyway, we're getting there and we're having more and more, you know, wonderful relationships developing along the way, and I think they're just going to continue to emerge and and grow. But yeah, we've certainly got lots of great ideas and desires to have more people on country, more housing, more diversity of where people's passions are. Just do it, whether you're an artist or a writer or whatever you are, that there's space for you to be part of that and well fed by people that can look after the food if that's their passion, but then they support the whole crew that's out there, that we all look out for each other and you know, whichever way it be, but we bring enough to keep our community going and enjoy.

AJ: 42:56

You know, Josh was talking this morning about the figures of Aboriginal folk who who actually are getting into ag in numbers, but they don't last, and that there's suspected racial-oriented barriers there and and cultures. But it does make you think more people on country, you know, Oral was saying tons more people on country and they want to be there, the young are ready to go, so the opportunity's staggering. But there comes a story with that again, too, right? Like labour intensivity is what we've tried to avoid and get out of. But what about we do have the hundreds of wadgery back on woolen and if they want to be there? And and I mean, some this is what some of what Josh is telling us. And then, you know, oral even crypt, maybe we don't even need one of your tractors anymore if it gets to a certain point. We've got people doing it. But the a story around I mean, if we're talking about connection, we're talking about labour intensivity, the the hated term, but that's now the the term we've got to reown. Ian or Heidi, do you want to go next?

Ian: 43:58

Well, because we're going exactly the opposite of labour intensivity, you know, with all the AI and all the things that we're doing these days, you know, we're um we're not even doing our own measurements, you know, it's all coming from the satellite. And as we know, anyone that knows about country and natural country, the satellite reads it a fair bit wrong. You know, some of the native grasses it doesn't even pick up. So um that's why to bring people on country and and look at things in that completely different lens is so important. Probably another dream that Daya and I have, while we do everything on country, it's this financial side as well, this broken financial system, the other, the other side of town. And um we need to talk with combined language to change that sector because while that sector is still running rampant doing what it's doing, we're never gonna get it have the access of finance in time to do what we do. The sheer fact is in the world what we've got today, everything costs money. You know, we'd um we'd we took on a 30,000 acre bought, purchased a 30,000 acre parcel of land in 2023. And the reason why we purchased that, didn't really want to, I did want to, but um the reason why we purchased that it'd all be into monoculture trees right now. And we thought, well that's not happening, so someone has to stop that from happening. So we put our hand up and purchase it. She fact is we pay between 8 and 9% interest, and you can imagine what the price tag of 30,000 acres was for the pleasure of that, you know, of doing that, you know. So, and that then puts pressure on even just being able to pay the interest bill. So lo and behold, at 2023, Murphy's Law, whenever that happens, 84 mil rainfall. So puts a fair bit of pressure on things. Hit 2024, another 18,000 acres comes up. Now, this 18,000 acres is a very significant parcel of land bordering on us surrounding a lake system with some very cultural significant sites on this. You know, even I know, and one of the major granite outcrops is um truly needs to be looked after. We thought, how do we we we can't let this go go back the wrong way? And um over a two-year period, which is only just finished off now, it was early 24, um, we tried really, really hard to actually secure. We looked at all options, we looked at the aim was to do it joint First Nations with us, do a joint thing, even put the land in commons, do some way to secure that title so it could stay there for perpetuity, so we could utilize that land combined to do whatever we do. And um, because we'd actually stretched our limits to being, you know, the old bank manager is not that happily of an um kind when I go and knock on the door and say, hey guys, I need another one, 18,000 acres to buy, and you know, um it wasn't going to happen. So we tried everywhere. Private institutions, you know, that have all the talk about, you know, we're into this kind of lending and rah-rah rah. At the end of the day, what a when it came down to signing on a bottom line, not one of them had the gumption from big investment firms, superannuation funds to banks to a whole lot, it just was not there. Highly disappointing. First Nations, proven farmers, significant sites, projections of where it would be for economic return as well by combining the two. No one had the balls. Nowhere. Not only just in Australia, but globally. We have a problem. How are we ever going to get people with we had backing to do this, you know, to follow us of what the resources we've got behind us. And when you get other younger people that I've seen here today that actually want to get in this space, whether it be white or first nations, we've got a problem, we need to actually sort that out. So that's one of our goals is to have those conversations in the right rooms.

AJ: 48:21

We might go on with that a bit this afternoon when we resume a conversation about what it's like being West Australians of the Year and farmers. Heidi?

Heidi: 48:32

I got emotional when I heard the question, so I was trying to like. I'm glad, we're very grateful that um I was distracted, and I'm trying hoping I don't get emotional again. Oh, it's already happening, I can feel it. So I'm gonna try not to look. Anyway, um look, probably the biggest driver. Oh shit, I really was not intending this. It's been a big three weeks. Um the biggest driver for me in everything that I do is to have healthy kids into the future, including my own. Um, and they've all had their setbacks, my kids and others that I take out on country. What I see in, and I've worked police child protection everywhere, right? Like I've been around so many weird spaces. Um where I see our kids strongest and where I see us, like myself strongest and other people strongest, is on country. And anywhere on country. That's why I'm particularly passionate about um working with farmers to heal country because I know the benefits of healing our people. I've had uh drug addicts just come and stay on our place just to detox. Young kids who for the first time seeing live animals or Nan or Auntie, you know, like I feel so good when I'm here, and they and they live 10 minutes, 20 minutes away from our place but never been bushed before. Um, you know, we know the state of the health of our people emotionally, physically, um and and country. So, like my dream is that I took that that story you talked about with the the dickhead at the station with the firearm, that when I took my pop out on country, first place you he ever worked, and they and and we were threatened on exit. Um my pop fought for country for a very long time, he died two years ago, hasn't been able to see the fruition of our native title claim in Upper Gascoyne. Here I am, and now 46, having the same conversations that he was having, he's 72 when he passed. My other pop who's got uh retired from mustering, he's 92 now, and he got retired from Rockley Station a couple years ago because he's too old to muster, but he will still be on the back of a horse and no one will tell him otherwise. It's like we can we're having generations of the same conversations and the same goodwill, the same relationships that are imparted on our traditional lands that we just want to be part of, and we're not seeing the progress. My kids are still educated with the crap education that I had, where people told me that we were taken into care because our parents, you know, our families didn't love us, when in actual fact it was the White Australia policy that was the reason why we were they were taken into care. So, my wish or dream is that my kids and my grandkids actually have a healthier life than I do, that they don't have to keep having these conversations and the feeling that um constant stress and impact on their emotional well-being, that they just get to live and be in harmony that we used to have before. I'm so sorry for um being emotional. But it's like it does, it takes a toll, and I just don't want that on them. You know, that's why I push hard today to honour the legacy of my old people, but also to reduce the burden on my own kids and the next generation. And we all have a collective responsibility towards that. Don't matter who you are, what colour you are, where you come from. Like that's all our responsibility for humanity and for country. Big wish, but shit, it's gotta happen, right? Because I just don't think there's another I don't think there's another answer, it's just what we've got to do because it's the right thing to do. I think Joshua talked about that before.

AJ: 52:19

Thanks, Heidi. You know, out of the conference, we ended that conference too in Perth with what's a commitment each of each of us are gonna take forward. I'm seeing more tears out there, and it's hard making it harder for me. Um what's a commitment each of us? It can be small even, but what if we all do something that we commit to out of this along these lines, just keep shifting that to rate. Let this be the generation. Yeah, where your daughters don't have to have that conversation. Yeah, binder that dream. All right. Anyone else want to? Yeah, great. One and two. Um have we got a Roma? Is Tegan still here? Yeah, great. Thank you.

Comment from Barry Green: 52:57

Thanks, Heidi and Ian and Di. Um, the things you're saying about your kids, I have the same concern for my grandkids. This corporatization of everything that's trashing Australian values. I I don't know what the answer is, but it all starts with a conversation, so I guess that's that's what we're at, and that's why these sort of things are so important. I don't know if you want to make any response to that.

Comment from Virginia Kelleher: 53:22

I just first of all wanted to say thank you. It's amazing, and Heidi, yeah, the emotion can definitely feel that. Um, and that I was at Regen WA, I'm from Queensland, and my I will try and keep my pledge, especially after today. And I blocked Matt up yesterday afternoon and said, Can you come to Queensland with your mum and dad? And Heidi, I've already spoken to you. Um I work with a lot of small parcel landholders for an NRM, and we have TOs that work with us as well. So I just want to go back and you know try and do my bit to help where I can to spread the good word as well. But I just wanted to say thank you from the bottom of my heart, and I'm on country as well, so we'll look after it the best way we can. And yeah, thank you.

AJ: 54:12

Thank you. Anyone else? All right, I'm gonna take this juncture to flip to anyone here on the back of everything we've heard, where where we sit right now, what's come to mind?

Ian: 54:22

Well, I think um we've got tremendous hope. You know, I I I try and steer everyone out of a negative, everyone we we try to go back to the negative, and there's a big negative there, but the only way we go forward is with hope. And you know, put that in your heart and really go forward, you know, strive to go forward because you know you never go forward if you're always looking back over your shoulder. So it's very hard, but we we have to be positive, open up the collaboration and the conversation, and through every way we can, in every little bit where we can, we we've got to go forward from now on.

Di: 55:00

Yeah, I think absolutely, and um the evidence over the past week of sharing and caring has really been, you know, really obvious. Um desire with triggering off the nourish event in Perth was exactly about that because Wednesday night uh at the campfield adjacent to Perth Stadium.

AJ: 55:19

Yeah, and two to three hundred people there.

Di: 55:21

Yes, it was about sharing food off landscape, but everything, you know, it was just a starting point, but we're hoping to make it a an annual event and just widen the participation amongst that from people that are you know what they're able to create and enjoy, you know, from being on country and and sharing those things, what all sorts of foods or whatever it might be or culture it might be. Um, because that's what's gonna nourish us all, and whether it be mentally, physically, or as a community, and the excitement was there was was such a diverse range of people from the community there, and I think we've just got to continue doing that, do these things more often in all sorts of different ways. Um, and I think we've got a really great chance in, and and as Heise's saying, the health for our future, our young people. I mean, that's first in our mind, um, getting the children born in a healthier way. We've got to get the toxins out of our environment, we've got to get the food and their parents not stressed during pregnancy or preconception so that the parents are at their optimum to be able to pass on the best opportunity for an unborn child. And so that's that's what we're all about at the end of the day.

AJ: 56:33

Well, speaking of coming together and all that, just before you go, Heidi, Di, why don't you mention briefly the alliance that you launched at Government House this week?

Di: 56:42

Yeah, I mean that it's been a big week. Um yeah. So Monday we did launch the Alliance of the Human and Planetary Health. Um we're gonna tick off, and there's been some amazing people that have put their hand up already to be wanting to be part of that, um, including some wonderful researchers um from even from the US. Um, and I think it's just gonna be a a collaboration of sharing ideas. There's a lot of wonderful medical researchers out there doing some fantastic stuff, but there's not enough cross-pollination across all the different disciplines and things, and that's the whole point. People that genuinely care to be able to share in a that really um, you know, environment where anyone can say whatever they're doing, but they might be able to learn from someone in a field completely unrelated, like a a farmer or a First Nations land carer. This is what we see. How does that relate to the work you're doing, you know, when you're studying microbiome and you know, prevention of MND or whatever else it might be? Um, all those things, so that's what we're kicking off in November.

AJ: 57:52

You'll hear more about it. Heidi, bring us home.

Heidi: 57:56

You'll kill the mood again. Um I I think probab what's really landing for me the most in this week, like I think about this week, uh the 12 days I just had in Sri Lanka, that Global Food Um Sovereignty Forum and this whole discussion is that that I feel like for the most part we've been trying to address these these this issue or the challenges that are faced in front of us within the industry that we sit in. Um but we need to start breaking those silos down, and I think so it's good that this week we've had a bit broader discussions, but even at uh Regen WA we we didn't have the people present in the room. Like we kind of need those people like Woodside, Rio, Chevron, the Fishers, the the Forest, everyone else, right, together to have conversations around how we move forward. We had a bit of that in um Sri Lanka, which was good. But and I think the reason we had that in Sri Lanka was because it was a it was a political and people movement. Whereas here we're just trying to work out how do we survive and how do we respond to people trying to push us off country to put in off uh gammon offset programs or whatever it is that's happening. So so what I'm loving is that I'm feeling that there is this movement, and and that is this collective impact that in our our Perth and our AM and have been trying to build, or we have been building the last few years, of breaking down, crossing those industries and starting to collaborate because at the end of the day we need to look after our sea country and this country and all our waterways and everything else, and we we've got to work better together um to make all of that stuff happen and have country be productive in the sense that people want, but also uh healing it at the same time.

AJ: 59:34

Thanks, Heidi. Please thank Heidi, Di and Ian. Thank you very much for that. Thank you again to the team at Grounded for generously providing that recording, and of course to you subscribing listeners for making the episode possible. This week, special thanks to the wonderful Craig Wilson, Jordan Cargill, Jen West, Scott Fairbanks, Bronwen Morgan, Chris Dowling, and Dianne Haggerty. Thank you so so much for notching up your fourth anniversary of support. If you'd like to join us, be part of that great community, get some exclusive stuff, and help keep the show going, please do by heading to the website or the show notes and following the prompts. Grounded 2026 will be heading to the Otways of Victoria in April. I hope to see you there. And the Grounded Podcast will also launch soon, with all their recordings to date. If you'd like to see that image of the Waygl on Heidi's first visit to the Haggerty Farm, you can find it on the webpage for episode 143, when the story was first told in the shearing shed after lunch on that field day. And you can find a few photos from today's panel conversation on the website too, plus Brennan Quinlan's wonderful illustration of festival proceedings. See if you can spot where this panel turns up. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden.