From Guerrilla to Mayor: A Mayan Leader on Resistance, Peace & Developing the Conditions for Life

Welcome to a series within the series from Guatemala, Central America – three stories from three men I admire most in the world. Each different but related. Each from a different generation. And each navigating the last couple of decades differently since I spent time with them, in the municipality of Fray Bartolome de las Casas, in the central province of Alta Verapaz.

This is the story of a place too, in that sense. A place that’s been through the worst of things and some of the best of human endeavours as well. Offering us all some hard-won wisdom on how to transcend the former and tend the latter, even achieve some remarkable outcomes at times, but perhaps above all, how to live well regardless of those outcomes. 

First up, then, it’s a privilege to share my conversation with Don Ceferino de Paz González. Don Cef was Mayor of Fray when I arrived offering my services, a gringo with, at that stage, no organisational or financial backing. 

Don Cef had not long been elected, only a few years after the Peace Accords that formally ended a bloody decades-long war. He was then part of the political party that emerged from the guerrilla resistance. A mere boy when he joined that resistance, he’d dodged death, rose through the ranks, and then in peace time, became Mayor not once, but twice. 

21 years since I last saw him, we met at his home in Fray. He’d hardly changed, still looking sprightly at age 80. And generously, this proud, articulate, still optimistic Maya Achí elder, was up for a chat – full, frank and open. 

We sat out on the patio, late morning. The humidity and heat were on the rise amidst the lush green of these traditional Mayan tropical lowlands. And as we go, we drift deeper into personal terrain. And to take us out, he agrees to pick up the guitar.

Today’s episode is also tribute to my late mentor, systems thinking pioneer and much-loved figure, Professor Frank Fisher, on the 82nd anniversary of his birth. 

Thanks again to Dana Scott for so generously translating the Spanish into English.

Recorded 14 January 2025.

See more photos on the episode web page, and for more behind the scenes, become a supporting listener below.

Music:

Salta Montes, by Migra (from Artlist).

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.

The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests.

Transcript

Opening And Guatemala Series Context

Don Ceferino 0:01

Maintain the equilibrium.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

When I talk about being optimistic, I maintain the equilibrium emotionally.

Don Ceferino 0:11

Physicamente physically because uh when losing the equilibrium then you get agitated and you get agitated in vain.

Meeting Don Seferino And Early Life

Antonio 0:32

G'day, Anthony James here for the regeneration, your ad-free, freely available, listener-supported podcast, exploring how people are regenerating the systems and stories we live by. Welcome to a series within the series from Guatemala, Central America. Three stories from three men I admire most in the world. Each different but related, each from a different generation, and each navigating the last couple of decades differently since I spent time with them. Back then, those few years I lived in the municipality of Fray Batolomera Las Casas in the central province of Alta Vera Paz were needless to say formative for me. I never imagined I'd be back, much less able to share this with you. This is the story of a place too in that sense. A place that's been through the worst of things and some of the best of human endeavors as well, offering us all some hard-won wisdom on how to transcend the former and tend the latter, even achieve some amazing stuff at times, but perhaps above all, how to live well regardless of those outcomes. First up then, it's a privilege to share my conversation with Don Sefanino de Paz Gonzalez. Don Sef was mayor of Frey when I arrived offering my services, a gringo with, at that stage, no organizational or financial backing. I'll never forget my first sight of this diminutive yet powerful figure striding towards me under broad sombrero, people everywhere, beaming as he shook my hand. Akia espacio para todos. Here there is space for everybody. Donsef had not long been elected, only a few years after the peace accords that formerly ended a bloody decades-long war. He was then part of the political party that emerged from the guerrilla resistance. A mere boy when he joined that resistance, he dodged death, rose through the ranks, and then in peacetime became mayor, not once, but twice. Twenty-one years since I saw him last, we met at his home in Frey. He'd hardly changed, still looking sprightly at age 80, and generously, his proud, articulate, still optimistic elder was up for a chat. Full, frank, and open. We sat out on the patio late morning. The humidity and heat were on the rise amidst the lush green of these traditional Mayan tropical lowlands. It had been raining plenty, and sure enough, rained again soon after we started. It doesn't rain softly in these parts either. But nor are there any assurances it would stop, so we just ran with it. It does back off though after a few minutes on each occasion. And somehow, as the air clears, the sound of Donsef's voice resonates all the more as we drift deeper into personal terrain in the back half of our chat. And at the end, he agrees to pick up the guitar to take us out. Today's episode is also a tribute to my late mentor and mate, Systems Thinking, pioneer and much-loved legend, Professor Frank Fisher, on the 82nd anniversary of his birth. Previous guests commemorating this occasion include the late Hazel Henderson and the still thriving Alan Savory, Charlie Massey, Paul Hawken, and Chloe Maximin. I couldn't be happier to mark this year with Don Seferino. All the more given it just occurred to me, I met both men within months of each other back at the turn of the century. What an impact they had on the life of this searching young fella. You just never know when the gifts turn up. Thanks again to Dana Scott over in Baltimore, a Peace Corps volunteer in Fray during the latter part of my time there, for so generously translating and speaking the Spanish in English. I'm glad you can join me in Frey for this one with Don Seferino de Paz Gonzalez.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Thanks very much, Don Sef. Thank you. It's a pleasure to do this with you. And perhaps we can start with an introduction of yourself. My name is Seferino de Paz Gonzalez, 80 years old of Maya Achi ethnic group. And this neighborhood is called Barrio Los Laureles in the municipality of Fray Bartolome de las Casas in the department of Alta Verapaz. Let's start at the very beginning, or the closest we can get to your your ancestors, the Achi culture. What part of Guatemala does it come from, and how many generations back do you know? Well, Rabinal is located in the department of Bahraverapas. Well, the Maya Achi Achi means man. He is not afraid to die. So that's what the word Achi means. The ancestors, well, they fought many wars with the Quiche. So the Quiche's could not advance into toward the area of the department of Baja Verabas. That is why Achi is spoken there.

Don Ceferino 5:54

So it didn't go any further.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

But later on, Pokomchi is spoken, which is a derivative of Achi and part of Kekchi. Now there are three languages that are reduced into one because there is a lot of similarities among the languages. For example, Pokom with the Mayan speaking Achi borrows from Kekchi.

Don Ceferino 6:22

So they are purely Mayan areas. Later I learned Pokom.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Hmm.

Antonio 6:55

And the rain is coming. How lovely.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

And you talked about the meaning of the culture's name, the name Achi.

Antonio 7:05

Have you thought much about about death in your life?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

It's a life. For example, if we go to the root, well, I haven't thought about death that much. I thought about the struggles that must be fought to liberate oneself from oppression, from the repression that the Maya people have lived under for many years. I'm quite optimistic. I think more about moving forward then than thinking about death. And your grandparents lived in Rabinan too. Yes. My grandparents lived in Rabinan. My father was called Lorenzo de Paz Huquej, an authentic Maya. He was secretary of the Peje, Guatemalan Labor Party, which was structured in 1948 during the government of Dr. Juan José Revalo Bermejo. My mother, well, was a faithful follower of the party of the Pehe Teng.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Okay.

1954 Coup And Family Persecution

SPEAKER_00 8:28

And let's talk more about this. You were very young at that time, right? At that time, in 48, I was about six years old, more or less. More or less. Because in 54 I was ten. What do you remember from that time? Well, in 54, there was the overthrow of Colonel Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, who to date is the only military man who touched the interests of American imperialism.

Don Ceferino 9:05

Because the American Intelligence Company, CIA, had taken over the best lands on the South Coast and the Northeast, which they occupied for the banana plantations.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

The fruit company. Because the American Empire and the OAS prepared troops in El Salvador.

Don Ceferino 10:26

And they prepared to enter the Department of Chiquimula bombardments. Indiscriminately bombing the civilian population.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

In Gualan, they almost exterminated them. And that's how the doctor, Colonel Jacobo Ángel Guzmán, withdrew and took asylum in Mexico.

Don Ceferino 11:06

And it continues.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

So then they placed a puppet who was called Carlos Castillo Armas. And he failed. So they sent him out to be killed themselves.

Don Ceferino 11:36

And the persecution against those of the PGT, the leaders, and all the selective killings, and everything continues there.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Already in the year 1960, the other movements emerged, such as the April 12th movement, which came from the students of the University of San Carlos, and the October 20th movement, and the November 13th movement, which, strangely enough, in Guatemala, because that was led by the Army itself, for example, Commander Torcillos Lima, John Sosa, they were trained in the School of the Americas for counterinsurgency.

Don Ceferino 12:17

However, seeing the injustice that was being committed against the population, they took the decision to rebel and they turned to defend the poor people. There was no other alternative.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

They were chasing us to kill us. We had to arm ourselves and defend ourselves. And what happened to your father? My father, he fell into the hands of the army in 1954, immediately. Immediately. After the colonel's overthrow, was when the persecution against the leaders began. They captured him. They didn't capture my grandfather, but they did my father.

Don Ceferino 13:27

So they took him to the department of Salama, to the military detachment, and there they tortured him, beat him all up.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

And they went and dumped him on the side of the road, pretending that he was already dead. But no, he endured a lot and they notified us. So we went to pick him up, we healed him with medicinal plants and everything. But they broke the pulmonary arteries and he was left with a dry cough. He lived a couple more years, but then as a result of the beatings they gave him, he died. What year did he die? He died around 1970, maybe. I remember it was in the 70s.

Don Ceferino 14:19

Yes, precisely. Seeing the injustice that was being committed against our family and everything.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

And precisely I was 16 when I joined the guerrilla war. I operated for two years in the Urban Command, but two and a half years more or less, from 60 to 62 and a half. A moment came when there were already many casualties of our cells of our comrades. So the leadership with a bit of skill took us out to the Sierra de las Minas.

Don Ceferino 15:00

What happened next?

SPEAKER_00 15:03

In the Sierra de las Minas, there we managed to structure the FAR, the rebel armed forces or revolutionary armed forces, as we wanted to call it. And there were three movements the April 12th movement, the October 20th movement, and the November 13th movement. What year was that? In 1969, between 62 and 63, more or less.

Don Ceferino 16:06

And we only had light rifles.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

We had many failures, and at one point the comrades got tired. As they were military men. In the November 13th movement, commanders Tulio Lima and the Commander Juan Sosa and the Commander Hernandez were involved.

Don Ceferino 16:37

And Commander Hernandez, after three years of struggle, rebelled and returned to the army. They were from the army, but had joined us along with all the weapons and everything. So we were left with very few.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Then at that time, we already had several fronts. We had the Edgar Ibarra Front, which was named after a university student that the army had killed. The Edgar Ibarra Front was created.

Don Ceferino 17:11

We kept fighting there.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Afterwards, there was a little bit of nonconformity within the same organization of the FAR. For example, some believed that socialism must be applied in some other way.

Don Ceferino 17:38

Others were democrats. They thought that the form of struggle was different.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

And we didn't agree. Some comrades withdrew, but in a short time they structured themselves in the Pehete in the Ejepe, the Guerrilla Army of the Poor. It breaks away from the Far and structures another organization, which is the Guerrilla Army of the Poor. Well.

Don Ceferino 18:11

And from there, we continued.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

We continued because we were left a little weak or quite weak because it splits, we divide. And from there, the Guerrilla Army of the Poor and the Far, another organization arises, which is the Orpa. Organization of people in arms. That was due to the discrepancies within the of the same.

Don Ceferino 18:43

We never achieved unity or everyone understood their way of fighting or combating well in their own way.

Ambush, Survival, And Logistics Shift

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Some said that it was that there needed to be a massacre. But the FARD never agreed that there needed to be massacre because unfortunately the army forced the peasantry to collaborate with the army. So that's where each each leader thought differently. And now we were four organizations. In fact, the Pehete never moved away. So the now we have the Pehete led by Commander Gonzalez, then the Guerrilla Army of the Poor by Moran, and the Orpa by Gasparon. Gasparilon was the son of Miguel Ángel Esturias, the Nobel Prize winner of the organization. Yes, exactly. Well, so four organizations. We reached a moment when the army almost annihilated us. So with other help and from and contributions from other leaders and from other countries, well, we were given the idea that it was better to fight for unity. We had to negotiate for four years to be able to form a single front, which was the URNG URNG. That wasn't formed until 1982. Then we synchronized the movements. But it was not possible to take power due to the divisionism that we maintained. We did cover then what the four organizations began to negotiate, to structure ourselves. So they said, what did we do? What did they do? We didn't realize there are many. We were the same quantity, but we already had, we synchronized. And that's how the army was dislocated, and some countries tried to uh find mechanisms on how to sign a peace agreement. That took us ten years. The Uerenehe General Command was structured in 1986. It was negotiated 10 years, so the peace accords weren't signed until 1996 on December 29, 1996. How was life in starting a family? Where did you live in the 60s, in the 70s? It's quite complex because living under pressure is complex. Life is very tense, but well, when one fights for conviction, all that uh can be overcome. We were able to overcome it. What place did you live at that time?

Don Ceferino 24:03

No, nowhere.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

We uh walked, for example, because like the we didn't last more than three days in a camp. Three days here, three days ahead, three days. It at the end of everything, each camp had its names, each camp had its names, and we do the routes on foot at night. Daybreak catches us and we hide and we keep walking. With the whole family? Not with the whole family, but only those who fight. The family was somewhere else. Somewhere else, but they also had to move?

Antonio 24:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

So when you did rise to to a higher level then in the United, what was your journey to get there? Well, after taking a course in Cuba, because thanks to the Cubans, they are very good at war and very good at training, I am I am a political military of the revolution. So already my it's a six-month course.

Don Ceferino 25:18

What year were we talking about?

SPEAKER_00 25:20

I'm talking about 1964, more or less. Okay, already 20 years. Yes, 64. Yes. So I I was appointed lieutenant. Lieutenant. That's as far as I got. Because from there up to captain, there can be in the guerrilla war. There are no colonels, there's nothing but corporals, sergeants, and those there are and sub lieutenants and lieutenants. And there are so that there is no need to send more people abroad. But from what we learned, we teach them to defend yourself, to attack and to counterattack. But my most my most complex experience is one when one of the comrades himself, who was a guerrilla commander, betrayed us, and sold out the army again and handed us over to the army. So at one point the army ambushed us. And they knew where we were, and thirteen comrades died in about 25 minutes. And the only survivor is me.

Don Ceferino 26:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

So I, in order not to fall into the hands of the army, I threw myself into the water because I didn't fall into the Mantagua River, but I fell onto the dry land. That's where I dislocated my right arm and leg. But night was already falling. Night already came. I threw myself into the river, swimming downstream, and they went upstream. When no comrade responded anymore, they began to shoot into the river with a machine gun and everything. I was way down there. When they stopped shooting, night fell.

Don Ceferino 27:23

I crossed the Montagua River. I crossed the whole Montagua River.

Massacres, Foreign Backing, And Community Costs

SPEAKER_00 27:28

I went to across the Sierra de las Minas. I already knew the way perfectly well, and I arrived at Rabinal about 18 kilometers from the town and the house of the social base. They received me there. They went to hide me in a hill under some clips. No, I didn't receive healing.

Don Ceferino 27:51

That's why I lost a lot of weight.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

And this I a vein here swelled up red, red, red. But then the column of comrades, they they came to find me. They passed by, and the the one from the base told them there's a comrade in there. But who is it? We don't how come not four months ago? I was already very thin. My normal weight at 21 years old. My normal weight was 149. Uh and when they found me at 120 days, I only weighed 68 pounds. All bone. Then when my comrades found me, yes, I had received medical attention and I recovered. So they changed my job. Oh yes. I had to at that time I was put in charge of logistics. We always carried weapons, but just shorts. Okay, yes. I would enter the towns, I would enter to buy medicine, to buy clothes, black clothes, black suits. We never used white or red, only black because the army can't see it.

Don Ceferino 29:18

They can't detect it.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

And that's how we were filling, covering, contributing until the accords were signed. And I'm curious if those experiences made your heart.

Antonio 29:50

Or how did you maintain your sense of humanity?

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Well when a comrade fell, we tried to be more aggressive against the army.

Don Ceferino 30:00

Because when they inflict casualties on us, we feel it very strong.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

But when we inflict casualties on them, we go on the run, but not fleeing forever, but to attack again further on, to ambush them, again, and to inflict casualties on them, again, with three ambushes that we carry out in any confrontation. They despair and they leave. So grave error. So grave error. So a lot of people died because they couldn't defend themselves. It is the time when the weapons, it seems, the weapons from outside arrived in even larger quantities than before from the states from Israel.

Don Ceferino 31:19

No, they never arrived in large quantities to us.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

No, I'm I'm talking about the government. No, the government had the support of Taiwan. Also the support of Israel and the United States, yes. That's why the massacres were committed in Guatemala. Six hundred and sixty-eight massacres were committed in Guatemala. With the strategic coordination of the Israel, Taiwan, and the United States, plus the strategies and tactics of the Guatemalan army. And also at that time, the president was Lucas Garcia from here in Frye. Yes, here in Frye, uh many people also died here.

Don Ceferino 32:08

Well, they didn't capture them by day, but by night.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

No, they never had irrefutable proof to say they never killed armed people but unarmed people. What do you think is the reason that explains the reputation of that president, which is still around here, positive that he did things for Frye. People often tell me, what can explain a reputation like that when we know what he did?

Don Ceferino 32:49

Yes, precisely.

Unity Efforts And Peace Accords

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Since there are people who did not live it, because most of the people were brought from the outside and they created a pilot plan. And the ones who are here, so they were unaware of the true reality, and they never read history. How did things change or not? They just kept going. The same. He followed. It was worse. Worse it was. Worse because it was during the time of the General Riuzman, because the Rifles and the Beans Project was created. What is that? It is a project that they called the Rifle and Beans Plan. And what was the objective of that? Ah, well, the massacres and everything. They would give provisions to the people and only so that they would gather, and then right there, they killed them. How intense. They relied on the military commissioners and the self-defense groups. And you didn't despair at that time?

Don Ceferino 34:13

No, no.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Well, there was no way to despair because since the reality is one that has to maintain calm in a situation of that nature, if that despair grips you, you can attack and know the conditions are not right to respond formally. So we always carried short-range weapons. Or now, when the M16s and the AK-47s and the G3 fall into our hands, for example, well, that goes 2,000 meters. But they with tanks and their planes, so there you did have to be hard-hearted and very intelligent to be able to survive that in that situation.

Don Ceferino 35:08

Among all that, here did you meet your wife?

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Well, I met her when uh they were also from the social base of the of the FAR. They lived in the south coast and later moved to this area. We met here when I was already operating in logistics. Yes, the areas that were under my responsibility were the entire northern transversal belt, which starts from Morales Isabal to this mountain range and to Playa Grande. And was she at one time threatened or did she suffer problems with violence? No, no, no. There came a moment when it wasn't just her, but my whole family. But since the confrontations were very frequent, and she got sick, and then uh they had to look for her so that she would give birth to the child, and we adopted him as a son. And but the army, since an individual who was called Jeppe Chequista, who was Kekchi, deserted and told the army that, yes, these people are supporting the guerrilla war and so on.

Don Ceferino 36:53

And they called us. They called her several times and they located themselves inside there. My children, and everyone were threatened.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

But they always maintained calm in the situation.

Don Ceferino 37:08

And it was when Serrano Elias had given the coup d'etat.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

So the captain said, Look, eight days is enough to finish them off. They had part of San Marcos, part of Huey Tenango, and here the municipality of Fray Bartolomeo de las Casas in red. And since there were confrontations everywhere with the heroic Panzos Front, so yes, they were very annoyed, but thank God, well, they didn't find a way to annihilate us. Yes, how good. And did any of your children fight in the end then? All of my children, they fought in logistics. All of them fought in logistics. All of them from the oldest to the youngest.

Don Ceferino 38:01

Really?

SPEAKER_00 38:01

The women also. And did everyone survive? Everyone survived. And how do you explain that? Well, no, I I repeat, it's the sanity, patience, humility, and being very honest. And the mouth, you have to watch your mouth a lot. I see, I don't see. I hear, I don't hear. I am mute. That's how one can live in in the midst of tribulations, in the midst of everything. One can be I don't pass judgment. I prefer not to. And how was it after so much violence? And the worst in the 80s that things reached a point of beginning the negotiations for the peace accords. What changed to open the door to to the accords to make them possible? After signing the peace accords, before, what changed with so much violence? Getting worse, getting worse up to Riyuzman, but soon after a process of negotiation began. So they thought there were many of us. Well, they didn't know how many of us there were nationwide.

Don Ceferino 39:39

We were the same quantity, but we were divided before.

From Combatant To Mayor And Builder

SPEAKER_00 39:43

But with the unity, we synchronized the moment of attack. That's where the army gets dislocated and thinks there are many of us.

Don Ceferino 39:55

And there weren't many of us.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

We were the same quantity, only that we had used a strategy of synchronizing the time, attacking at the same time. And at the same hour, the same day, the same month. So they thought there were many of us, and no, there were very few of us. On a national level, if I recall correctly, there were about 3,000 at the national level among the three organ four organizations apart from the civilian population that supported the government. Yes, of course. Because a guerrilla cannot live without the support of the social base. If you can join forces, you can achieve more.

Antonio 40:49

Yes, you can.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Did you always believe in this? Yes. So in your life at that time, did you travel through other countries as well? Yes, of course. In 1963, I took the political military course in Cuba, and in 1964, I remember I was sent to Germany.

Don Ceferino 41:15

That's the communist Germany.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Also the political military of seven of us, well, only I am alive. The other comrades fell in combat. And other countries also afterwards, or just that. Well, the political military field, yes. But now through the legal route, after the peace accords are signed, I was awarded a scholarship for 66 days. I took a course on the rule of law at Carlos III University of Madrid, Spain. And I have a friend who was a priest who was fighting with us, and I visited him in France. And how was that scholarship in Spain? There was an organization called Incide, the Civil Initiative for Democracy. And that moved my scholarship, and I was able to leave. So is it fair to say that you always believed in democracy too? Was it always an objective inside? Of course. I believe in democracy, yes. But an authentic democracy, not the democracy that the American imperialism applies. Because they apply a democracy that is in favor of their interests without caring who they're going to overthrow. The OAS, whose true spirit was created to maintain unity throughout Central America. However, three, four years later, they gave the coup d'etat to Jacobo Angel Guzman, and that is the democracy that they have applied in all countries. Afterwards, they killed this Torjillos, Omar Torjillos.

Don Ceferino 43:16

They also overthrew him.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Then they killed Salvador Allende of Chile.

Don Ceferino 43:23

And then they went to Iraq, to Libya.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

But it has been a strategy of the American Empire. And then after that, what was the process for you to become mayor here in Frye? Ah, yes, precisely. After signing the peace accords, all the comrades went out on the horizon. They gave them land, they gave them money to live. Now not me, because I thought about giving life to the party. Because if they persecuted me for many years, we fought for many years to get the party, I had to give it life. But if I had been there, I couldn't come to work here. So I preferred to lose the aid that I had supposedly earned in the 33 years or a little more, but to be alongside my people. Why? Because my people never moved away from me in the most difficult moments of the war. They didn't move away from me well, nor did I move away from them. And the proof of this, I won the elections because I worked the entire northern transversal belt. And thank God our president didn't win, but I won, and I built roads, bridges, streets. All these streets were built by my municipal government.

Don Ceferino 44:50

And that was my aim. That was my desire to seek development for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Not just for one person, not just for me, but for my people. That was when the URN He converted to a political party. Exactly. It was in 98. Our party was registered as a legal party with legal status and everything.

Don Ceferino 45:14

There was no longer persecution for us.

Culture As Resistance And Public Works

SPEAKER_00 45:24

A long struggle to see the common good of an entire people. And I won the elections with about 7,000 votes here in Fry. The first time? The first time. And I won the second time too. Yes, well, we'll talk about that later. But the the first time, a little later, I met you. Yes, exactly. I arrived at the beginning of 2001. 2001, yes. And I still remember meeting you, and you told me there is space for everyone. Everyone. Yes. I never forgot. So a question on that topic.

Antonio 46:02

How did you manage to speak to everyone? Both sides.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

One could say to recover a sense of unity among the entire people. How difficult was it?

Don Ceferino 46:18

It was quite difficult.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

The only thing I did is to be a simple man.

Don Ceferino 46:24

Only speak the truth.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

I never spoke of another party. I spoke of my party. Yes.

Don Ceferino 46:30

I spoke of my party and I never touched on religious matters.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

I didn't mix it up. Only the party itself.

Don Ceferino 46:40

Precisely when we won the elections, there were blue helmets here.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

So in my council, there was uh Catholic people and there were evangelical people. And so the evangelicals asked for a service at ten in the morning, and the Catholics a mass at six in the morning. We went and the blue helmets presented themselves there.

Don Ceferino 47:12

And the priest tells me the councilman went before me.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

He gave him the communion waiver. Are you Catholic, son? I am a Christian revolutionary. Oh, well, I can give it to you next time then. Well, so there was a professional who was from the blue helmets, and they were international observers. Outside, coming out of the Catholic Church, she tells me, Sefferino, you are a rascal.

Don Ceferino 47:51

Why is that, ma'am? Why, when we interview you, are you so slow to speak?

SPEAKER_00 47:58

And to the priest you said, I'm a Christian revolutionary. How did you manage to have the ability to say that quickly? Well, ma'am, I told her, I carry the revolution in my bloodstream. I live it, and that's why I fought for long years, and that's why I want to live more. To get projects for my people. Now that I've won the municipal government in civilian life. No, she said, you have not convinced me. And your government also achieved the start of the Casa de la Cultura, which I helped a little at that time. And well, the library and the theater and everything, the culture also rose in that time. We built the Casa de la Cultura in response to the canyons that were pointed at our town.

Don Ceferino 48:50

I had a thought that without in the time of war, and thank God he gave me the opportunity to govern in my municipality, what we want is the Casa de la Cultura to show the Empire that it is not with weapons that you can convince the people, but with development, music, theater, boxing, and races, swimming, whatever can be done.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

Education. So that is in response to the cannons that pointed at our town. So the next election you lost, but I wasn't here. I had said goodbye to Fry at the end of 2003. What happened with that election? Well, what happened is the same comrades, for example, the refugees. Because one has to reason what a refugee is and a demobilized person is. So they themselves were saying, look, he won with the support of the drug traffickers. He handled money, and I didn't handle the money to be able to win. I worked poorly, but a struggle for conviction, and I convinced the people that yes, it was possible to achieve development. But by everyone joining in, yes.

Don Ceferino 50:22

So because of the same comrades, the same comrades are not visionaries, but they wanted power.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

But without power, without working, and power can be taken, but you have to work a lot.

Don Ceferino 50:38

But the people reconsidered. And we returned. We won again four years later. So what was it?

SPEAKER_00 50:50

In 2008, 2008 to 2012.

Don Ceferino 50:54

There, yes.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

So you won that election, and also the type of development that that you attempted the first time, you attempted the second time. To follow up.

Don Ceferino 51:25

Due to the period of time it expired, I left three communities without roads.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

That is, uh, still, it is still without a road. And Chinamui, which already has a road now, and Sepoch now already has a small road. So there is one left without a road, and it is still there. Ten years later and more, still, and the Casa de la Cultura continues from what I see. And now there are a lot of schools too.

Don Ceferino 52:01

Also, education was our plan.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Education, health. And in my first term, we came to have 24 Cubans here.

Don Ceferino 52:14

Cuban doctors, doctors, yes, yes, doctors.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

We financed three doctors, three doctors ourselves, and the state paid for 21. Because since the stipends that small stipends that they uh earn, it's not a large salary like a doctor here in Guatemala. They are small stipends. We give them a little more because we know we are of the same line, and we know what is suffered in Cuba due to the embargoes that the empire has also imposed on them for more than six decades, more or less. In the 20 years since I was here, the town is already bigger. It has grown a lot too much. And that is what I want to ask you. When you see it now, how much has grown and how has it grown? And since the time when you also uh were mayor, what do you think about the development? The path that Fry is on. Is it on a good path from what you see, or would you like to see other things? Well, the truth is that being outside, one desires many things. For example, drinking water is very scarce. So in this year, in this period of the Comrade Arnoldo, who was mayor, he gave me the opportunity to manage drinking water projects. We achieved about 22 mechanical wells managed in three parts, one part from the organization, another part from the community, and another part from the municipality. We achieved it. Now with this one, well, he doesn't take me into account. So I also step aside because one cannot one can contribute when given the opportunity. I understand. The other big change is the Palma.

Don Ceferino 54:28

Yes, exactly, the Palma.

SPEAKER_00 54:31

Well, uh that was not managed by the municipal government. But that was negotiated by members of Congress. They already had come from the state with permission to work and everything.

Don Ceferino 54:49

They never came to the municipality, whether they wanted to or not.

SPEAKER_00 54:55

But they already came with the right to do everything. And proof of this is that they knocked down the trees on the riverbank. It did not respect anything. However, they violated it, but they are already authorized from there. I always remember an interview that we shared, but it was mostly with a woman from the States who was working in the Capitol with an NGO from a newspaper. But a good NGO. She came to Fry to interview you about the FTAA at that time, right? The agreements, as they are called, of free trade, of globalization and everything at that time. I remember that because you also told us that no one from the federal government has come here to ask to ask for a word or a type of agreement from here of the municipality. It was only a word from outside. Exactly.

Antonio 56:10

It seemed the same then.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

There are some some things that are still different agendas. Yes, for example, the 2014 agreement, as they call it, uh was the genetically modified seed law.

Water Scarcity And Governance Limits

Don Ceferino 56:25

That never came here, but it was it is a proposal from the big corporations.

SPEAKER_00 56:34

So what they want is to sell the seeds that they produce and that the native seeds, which the peasants have maintained for more than 500 years here, be eliminated. So for that, we had to go on a three-day strike in Congress to partially stop it.

Don Ceferino 56:56

And they changed the name of that law. I don't remember exactly. With the privatization of water, also. We had to go on strikes.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

Well, they haven't declared it, but they are privatizing most of the water sources. Really? Also.

Don Ceferino 57:13

But that law against the genetically modified seed because the genetically modified seed is very bad.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

That law, I already saw that the content says of the municipality. Well, you have to come and notify when you plant. A commission from the municipality goes out to see what quantity of work and what quantity of seed. If it's a little bit of seed, they pass along the report and they pass it to the court. Then the court calls the small-scale farmer who is going to plant because he has a lot of land to plant and has a little seed, and they show him that he is not obeying the law, then they applied a fine of 10,000 quetzales plus four years in prison. Yes, it has been interesting because when I talk to people of all types in the town, right, this time everyone talks about the African palm in terms that they understand the contamination, the use of water and everything. And they despair a little, right? And it's interesting because in the when I was here 20 years ago, it was a bigger challenge to raise awareness among people about environmental issues. But with the African palm, it it seems that everyone understands the consequences and also the resources, yes, employed, but the costs as well. And they regret it from what I hear. Of course.

Don Ceferino 58:45

Is that what you hear from the people too?

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Or do you hear other things that the people think about the African palm these days? No, is that regularly our people are not prepared to manage to reason or understand this grievance that the African palm brings to the population. For example, they deduce that the African palm has a life of 25 years. And if in 25 years, what will become of the municipality of Frye or what will become of Guatemala, the areas where the African palm has been cultivated, because since it absorbs a lot of water, a lot of liquid, so who knows, right?

Don Ceferino 59:35

But our people, they think about the present that they are earning, that they have a job.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

But it doesn't go beyond that. So that is what will become of the generations to come. Will the 3,000 that 3,000 workers there now have African palm to work? Really? 3,000 from outside Fry or from Fry? Both. But if I oppose, then we have made enemies. Of those poor people who need to work. So it is better to keep silent to be intelligent.

Don Ceferino 1:00:10

Right? Because people are poor. They need work.

African Palm, Jobs, And Environmental Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

There is no source of work. There are even professionals working in there as laborers. It's complex. When a son of yours, my friend, who tried to maintain the law that says there is an area next to the rivers that must be protected. Yes. And he encountered problems. Quite a lot. Quite a lot of problems. And intimidation that you know well from your experience. So what do you say at this time to a son? To continue or now maybe advise him that the conditions are not right to oppose because you need work. Where are you going to work? Or they send you to be killed. Who is going to defend you?

Don Ceferino 1:01:09

Who is going to feed your family? It's complex. So here you have to be intelligent.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

There is no other way because a single swallow does not make a summon. The whole town has to grow. It has to create awareness to be able to advance in that field. It cannot be done. It's fighting against the current.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

Yes. And you still don't despair.

Antonio 1:01:52

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

How do you feed your sense of optimism?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

What reasons or what kind of thinking do you have to be able to maintain that belief? The faith in the people.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:23

Emotionally. Physically, because when losing the equilibrium, then you get agitated. You get agitated in vain. I get agitated, and it is in vain because fighting with uh against a monstrous enemy, these are large corporations from several countries, and they have everything to win, nothing to lose. What am I going to do?

Don Ceferino 1:02:54

Well, when an opportunity arises, there are people who talk, but they only come and take the message over there with them. So when you have a son who looks for work, your father, he is our enemy.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:11

He talks about us, then one causes harm to a third party.

Don Ceferino 1:03:15

So better the conditions are not right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

That's why the commander Chay Gevara said, when a man's conscience matures, leadership emerges and changes occur.

Don Ceferino 1:03:28

Not now.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

The conditions are not right. They are not right. On one hand, I think that today, after so much time, the conditions are still not right. On one hand, I think this. On the other hand, I see your experience, your life. You achieved so much through such a difficult, violent time and everything. But you managed to be mayor and to do a lot of things and live until 80 years old with a good health and a beautiful family, and everyone is here. And something else. Something else. Yes. The greatest achievement I have reached is being alive. Yes. And having my family. There are nine in total, and we are all complete. So in one way, it is uh well there are several realities that exist at the same time. There are some that well, one can despair a little when seeing the forests already, when seeing the African palm from its plants in the Nueva Libatan to the mountains. I I couldn't believe it. Really, so much land. But on the other hand, there is um You're saying there is a bigger perspective. Yes. And you believe in this? Yes, I trust in that.

Antonio 1:05:09

Has intuition helped you in your life?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:13

Or more thoughts? Strategy? Or both? Both things. Right? Both things. I'm curious about intuition, because it's talked about less generally, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

What is your experience of intuition and how does it help you? Well, in many fields, for example, since this has no end, and it is not a coincidence, but it is almost worldwide. I cannot think only of Frye Bartolome de las Casas, yes?

Don Ceferino 1:05:53

To begin with, in Frye, there are 78 communities without electric power. However, the government, when it makes loans to the state, it deduces that 90% of the country of Guatemala has electric energy, has a health center, has a community outreach center. And it's true.

Equilibrium, Optimism, And Strategy

SPEAKER_00 1:06:24

It has a health center, but without medicine, without doctors. So we fall into the same thing. If we think first of the negative, we do not manage to overcome or to maintain the equilibrium. So there is no other option than to continue the struggle, but in an intelligent way. In an intelligent way. Yes, and a religion? Also, I'm evangelical.

Don Ceferino 1:07:18

Do you have thoughts about what happens after death or still you don't think about it?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:26

It's good to think because that's part of preparing for the equilibrium. So yes, there can be there can be it's said that there is something beyond, but well, it's a matter of seeing, of waiting for the moment. Waiting, yes. I always end my talks with people here talking about music.

Antonio 1:07:56

Is there a music for your life?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

Perhaps it has accompanied you in your life, a music or a group or something? An instrument? Yes, the guitar is what I have liked.

Don Ceferino 1:08:08

Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

I love listening to the marimba. I tried to learn, but the marimba uh you have to make a group of five or seven or more people, and we never got together. So I liked the guitar better because even if I'm alone, I grab my guitar and I play. I have it inside. There. Can you play now? Yes, I can.

unknown 1:08:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:34

That's very good. It's a little out of tune. Okay, let's see. Do you want lemonade? Thank you. My favorite unit.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

And the current president was a surprise, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

That he was elected. Ah, yes. And what did you think about that? Well, he has good intentions. Yes, it seems so. He does, because the father was the one who Dr. Juan José Arevalo Bermecos, who created the labor code, the ECE and other benefits.

Don Ceferino 1:09:20

They are steering him.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

If he does not align himself, he will die. And he does not want to die.

Don Ceferino 1:09:27

So a true leader has to be born who has the courage to die so as not to be subjected to being manipulated.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

He has good ideas, but they do not let him, nor will they let him. It's true. If he comes out alive, he is lucky. The conditions you spoke of, right? Exactly.

Antonio 1:09:53

The music?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:55

Very good.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:49

There you go. It is a great pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:53

Truly. Thank you, my brother. Thanks for stopping by and seeing us. Thank you for coming. You know you have a friend here. As long as there is life, there will be revolution.

Energy, Services, And Realistic Hope

Antonio 1:12:09

That was Don Seferino de Paz Gonzalez. At home in Fray Batoromero Las Casas, Alta Vera Paz, Guatemala, Central America, with thanks to Doña Luz as well for a wonderful lunch afterwards. And the whole family for the warmest of return welcomes. Enormous thanks also, once again, to Dana Scott for the translated audio, and of course, to you supporting listeners for making the episode possible. This week, special thanks to Martin Pell, Simon Alston, Deirdre, and Manny Pascalini. Thanks so much for notching up your third anniversary of support. If you'd like to join us, be part of a great community, get some exclusive stuff, and help keep the show going, that'd be awesome. Just head to the website or the show notes and follow the prompts. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Bardin. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.