The New Freedom: How a Refugee Return Became a Thriving Multi-Cultural Community, Cooperative & Education Centre

Welcome back to Fray Bartolomé de las Casas, Alta Verapaz, as we continue a special series from Guatemala, Central America. 

I wish I’d recorded how I came to find today’s guest. In returning to this place that was home for a few years back at the turn of the century, I didn’t know who’d still be around, alive even. 

I figured that my old friends Cándido Reyes and his wife Maricela, if they were still around, would be in the returned refugee community they helped set up 30 years prior, called la Nueva Libertad (the New Freedom), just a few kilometres out of town. But after so many years, I had no chance of remembering which house was theirs, an old email address didn’t work, and an old office of theirs in town was now a restaurant.

So I asked around, and eventually got the tip I’d find them in the current facility of the legendary non-profit they continue to work for called Adelina Caal Maquín (ACM) – working with women, youth, food sovereignty, agro-ecology and, more recently, a residential secondary school in sustainable community development.

Anyway, next day, unannounced and with some timidity, I went to find them. Catching up was so wonderful and compelling, later Cándido and I pressed record on a walk around La Nueva. 

We start at ACM, wander around the gardens, the community, its schools, its innovative cooperative set up, and delve into the extraordinary stories of their lives and this place. Emerging from the horrors of war, we explore Cándido's time as a young resistance organizer, and how he later returned as a leader in the formation of the coop and community. 

We talk about the coop’s enormous successes and challenges, reconnecting with ancestors, the changing face of Fray and Guatemala, the exciting food processing venture, reflections on a life so far, and his unflinching belief in what’s possible.

Cándido is sharp, resilient and very funny. And out here, they’re lighting a beacon for Guate, and in many ways, for us all. 

Thanks again to Dana ‘Patricio’ Scott for generously translating and speaking the Spanish in English. 

Let’s head to la Nueva Libertad.

Recorded 14 January 2025.

See more photos on the episode web page, and for more behind the scenes, become a supporting listener below.

Music:

Salta Montes, by Migra (from Artlist).

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.

The RegenNarration playlist, mus

Transcript

Return To Fray And Reunion

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Mira, la Nueva Libertad con Capital.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

La Nueva Libertad with its complications and its beautiful aspects is a benchmark for development in the municipality. It's truly a benchmark, even in football.

ACM’s Mission And School Tour

Antonio 0:27

Welcome back to Fray Batolomera Casas, Alta Vera Paz, as we continue a very special series from Guatemala, Central America. I wish I'd recorded how I came to find today's guest. In returning to this place that was home for a few years back at the turn of the century, I didn't know who'd still be around. Alive even. I figured that my old friends Candido Reyes and his wife Marisela, if they were still around, would still be in the returned refugee community they helped set up 30 years prior, called La Nueva Libertad, the New Freedom, just a few kilometres out of town. But after so many years, I had no chance of remembering which house was theirs, an old email address didn't work, and an old officer theirs in town was now a restaurant with tacos. So I asked around and eventually got the tip I'd find them in the current facility of the legendary non-profit they continue to work for called Adelina Kalmakin, ACM, working with women, youth, food sovereignty, agroecology, and more recently, a residential secondary school in sustainable community development. Now that stokes the fires. Anyway, next day, unannounced and entering with some timidity, I see a couple of women set back in a relatively dark office. I stick my head in and ask for Candido, then notice the halting look on one of the women's faces. Then I halted and realised in an instant, Maricella. She looked older but not too different. And while I went a bit nuts, she was still trying to figure out who this crazy gringo was. I guess I've aged a bit more. She took us to Candido's office nonetheless, and he recognised the old fella straight away. We caught up on some of the years that day. It was so compelling, I later proposed we press record on a walk around La Nuva, and here we are. So we start at ACM, wander around the gardens, the community, its schools, its innovative cooperative setup, and delve into the extraordinary stories of their lives and this place. Emerging from the horrors of war, and heads up, Candido's story touches briefly on some of this at the time of his escape to Mexico. We explore that time as a young resistance organizer and how he later returned as a leader in the formation of the co-op and community. We talk about the co-op's enormous successes and challenges, reconnecting with ancestors, the changing face of Fray N Guatemala, the exciting food processing venture that just needs a little more support, by the way, reflections on a life so far, and his unflinching belief in what's possible. Candido is an amazing bloke, astoundingly resilient and smart, and so very funny. And out here, they're lighting a beacon for Guate, and in many ways, for us all. Thanks again to old mate from Guatemala Times, Dana Patricio Scott, for so generously translating and speaking the Spanish in English, even when we were talking about him. Let's head to La Nueva Libertad.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

And so let's explain to the people who might be listening what ACM is in the first place. And have the young people just arrived again?

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Yes, yes, they've arrived.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

They're in there. Here's the fish tank where they now have vegetarian fish. You'll see, I'm going to throw a leaf on it and you'll see. I just fed them. And what are they? They're tilapia. They're called tilapia. And you're going to see this plant that's called osh in Kekchi is a tuber that we eat, but the leaf is also good for feeding fish. You know, if they're hungry, they'll come.

Antonio 5:26

They feed on it.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

They look like piranhas. Yes, of course. That's what I think. You can barely see them. Yes, because the water has that color. They went crazy. They're going to devour that one really fast. So we're giving them some of this leaf and another one called what's the name of this plant? I've forgotten the name right now, but we'll see it around here. And that's all they eat, nothing but plants.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

And they've grown because the students learned to raise fish last year. But some didn't make it.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

And those that did make it had offspring. And those are the ones that we have now. And we kept them like this. They're very hardy.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Very good.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

And this year we're going to start again because we've seen that they like the fish.

Antonio 6:21

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

So today there's fish farming and those plants and also literacy, education, and everything. There's everything.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Yes, well, here at the Adelina Kalma Keen Association School, they have first, second, and third Basico. About 70 students. And that's high school for the people of Australia.

Student Governance And Agroecology

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Got it. And they are from indigenous communities that are located more or less between 12 and 50 kilometers around from the villages surrounding the urban area of Frye, and who don't have secondary schools in their community.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

So they come here.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Because here they learn, in addition to the areas of the national basic curriculum required by the Ministry of Education, they learn new ways of living together.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

In order to live better.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

They learn to produce food like fish. They learn to rescue and manage native and honeybee populations. And also how to diversify crops using agroecology, for example. All of this is osh, do you see? But all of this is designed to supplement the children's diet and also feed the fish. Yes. Very well. And also everything about citizen participation. I can imagine all of that too. Yes, so the teachers guide them parachute.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

So that they can organize themselves into what they call the student government.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Then the young people in a participatory and democratic way eliminate elect their leaders who serve for a year. And they also have committees. And there's everything because the school operates like one big family. This over here is cinnamon. And this is moringa. Look.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Oh, moringa. This is moringa.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

This plant is not native to here, but it's very nutritious. Of course. There are people in Australia who use it too. Yes, so we've put moringa with that here. They really like tamales, uh, like chipiline. So they eat it in with tamales, the leaf. And how long has this school been here? Well, this whole building, but I imagine it was a school in the first place. Well, actually the building, notice it has a plaque.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

We didn't put an age on it.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

But it was built about 15 years ago, more or less. Okay, 15. 2009, 10, around there. I don't remember exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

At first it was designed to train women, and to empower women, and a meeting place for women, for women leaders.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

And then uh well, uh the ladies who were learning to read and write because the association had a literacy program, they think it's good to establish a secondary school so that young people who don't have access can come. And that's why the Adelina Kal Makin Center continues to provide a meeting place for women. So that women from the communities can meet, but also to provide education for young people. Very good, and not just to the girls. No, no, no. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

The criteria is uh they say well, equity has to be roughly 50-50. That's what's promoted.

Founding La Nueva Libertad

SPEAKER_00 11:02

50% men, 50% women. This is the chaya I was telling you about. The young people planted this last year. See how it is? This is a plant that has it's uh entered energizing, very, very good, although it doesn't taste very good. But when it's made into soup, it has many nutrients and it's also good for feeding the fish. The fish too? Yes, yes. This one grows, you keep cutting it, and it grows back. And if you take the branches, they eat it better than today. And this is a sapote tree. This is a fruit tree. It already has a lot of fruit. Here the kids learn to diversify as they should do in their in their plots in the community. You know this one, right? It's bamboo. And this is a type of mango. It's blooming now. That's the masapan over there. That big ball that's very good to eat. But not for the fish in this case. No, this is for people. And well, the sugar cane didn't work very well here. And now we're going to go out this way over here. So you guys came here after being in the casco around the time I was here last time. Or was there another place as well? We went there after leaving.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

The association reached an agreement with the mayor.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

And they gave us uh some facilities that used to belong to INTA, where the National Institute of Diversified Education now operates. Oh, yes. And we were there for a couple of years, right next to the Ban Rural. Exactly. That's where I lived. When I arrived, but it was abandoned at the time.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

So then we rebuilt those facilities there, and that's where the association's headquarters are located. But at that time, Adelina School was actually started there because that's where we began to encourage the young members to complete their basic education. And so they came two days a week, and that's how we started. The association started with the school. And with that money, the center was built.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

And it's there. This is already look, all of this was on the outskirts of the community. We're passing by on the periphery of the village. But you see, now it's growing.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

And there are more houses over there. But we left a lot of space in these streets. These streets are 15 meters wide, which we designed this way, thinking that this town is going to grow. And has it grown? It has grown a lot.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

I guess so.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

This was a really deserted street.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

There's one more over there.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

There is one block, we call it, but it's sure to be full of people very soon. And are they all still returnees or from anywhere? Well, basically, those of us who returned have all come back, right? A returnee is someone who came back in within the framework of the October 8th agreement. We returned here on November 17th, 1994.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

And so that group is like let's call it stable. Because we arrived at that time.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Another group arrived in March of the following year, and that's it. All the other families that have been growing are children of the returnees. And now, lately, there has been more families buying lots here and living here in the new neighborhood.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

This is neighborhood four, where we're going.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Right here in this part, live people who speak the Popti language. They come from Huehuetenango mostly.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

When we came, four neighborhoods were formed.

War, Exile, And Organized Return

SPEAKER_00 16:02

In neighborhood four, are those who speak the Popti language. In neighborhood three, the Zakatecos, that is, the majority. In neighborhood two, those who speak the Kekchi language, and in neighborhood one, the mestizos and canjobares. That's more or less how the structure ended up. Now it's a big mix-up and all sorts of things in every neighborhood. And I think it would be worth discussing before we continue with the story of La Nueva, the founding of the association comes from a woman. Why was that name chosen for the association? Well, according to my colleagues, Adelina Calmaquin was the name of a real person who lived primarily in Panzos, but also in San Pedro Carcha. She was originally from San Pedro Carcha. According to history, she was a Keqchi leader who fought for the defense of the Keqchi people's territory. And well, at the time there were many difficulties in the government. In an act, the repressive forces of the National Army in May 1979 committed a massacre in the main square of Panzos. This is documented by many people. More than 100 people were murdered there, including Adelina Kalmachin. And so that symbol has been adopted by various women's groups for to reclaim it. And of course, to ensure Adelina's story doesn't die because of her time here on Earth. Although the organization isn't just for women, because here there are people of all languages. And so the belonging is doubled because it's the same.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

That president?

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Well, that massacre happened during the time of President Eugenio Lauder Garcia. Ah, during his term. At the end of his term, and then at the beginning of General Romero Lucas Garcia. These farms where Nueva Libertad is now located belonged to Fernando Romero Lucas. And the state bought them gave us the lot. We organized ourselves into a cooperative and created a revolving fund for the cooperative to operate. And well, that's how we acquired the land and got the lots. And naturally the houses have changed a lot now. It's hard to see a house like it used to be. Maybe we'll see one at the very end, but right now there is something else entirely. These houses weren't like this when we came here 30 years ago, nor the streets. This is already an improvement to have this type of road surface. And wooden houses, even twenty years ago. Even twenty years ago. Yes, yes, they all were tiny wooden ones. Well, the the sheet metal roofing hasn't changed in most places. Yeah, but now they have much more stable walls. Look, express shipping everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Yes, well, that's different too.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

After the pandemic, with the lockdowns, parcel delivery companies started operating, and now they deliver everywhere. So there's a lot of business on the open market. People are starting to buy and order things, and they come through parcel delivery companies. Now, after it was so difficult to get to the market by bike or on foot, people are buying online. And that's why these companies reach us here, where so many of us go. Like four or five companies in Fry.

Antonio 20:52

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

They've all been coming to La Nueva, where for 30 years there was no mail service. There was one phone line, and to make a call, I don't know if you experienced it, but you had to go at midday to make a call because Telgua was the only phone company there. We are now inundated with everything. We haven't escaped it. No island remains. We have integrated into this system with all its good and bad aspects. Yes, that's right. So what's your story about you came here? How did it go?

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Oh, mine? Hmm, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

It looks a bit like how the streets used to be. Exactly. That's what I was thinking. That's how things were before, more or less. A historical artifact. The advancements are still there. There are memories here of the past and now of the present. We're going over there and you'll see, well, um you see with within the framework of the October 8th agreements signed by the refugee leaders and the Guatemalan government at that time. These were signed before.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

I think 94 We came long before, long before.

Rebuilding Community And Identity

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Yes, we came here in 1994. I don't remember the exact date. It was earlier, like two or three years before ninety-four. And there the story goes that we, those of us who were in the refugee camp, could um decide when, where, and how to return to Guatemala. Where were you? I was in Comitante Dominguez in Chiapas. In recent years, I was there working to organize the return. And I decided to come here because I believed at that time that it was a place that it was quite well connected. No, I I didn't want to go to a place with a lot of connectivity problems like roads or electricity. That was important to me. And that's why I decided I had information about where the community was, the land which was near the municipal capital, and I said, Well, let's go there. My partner and I discussed it, we reached an agreement, and of course, we decided in a rather illusory and hopeful context, creemos.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

We believed in the October 8th agreements, we believed in the government's commitments, we believed in the commitments of the international community.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

So at that time we called it a dignified and organized return. And well, we came here by plane. I arrived around 11 in the morning on November 17th, 1994. It was so hot here. Abysmal. Yes, yes, it really affected me. When I got off the plane, of course, after living in Comitan, which really has a lovely climate, and I felt the steam of fry. And then you look back and you say, Oh, am I sure I'll stay? And we said, Yes, I'm sure I'll stay. And that's how the story began. And with Marisela. With Marisela, yes. And with Otto, who was one year old. Okay, and where did you meet in Mexico? She worked with women and I worked organizing the return with the permanent commissions. They had an education commission and I was there. And we crossed paths in those committees, and that's how we met in camps. And you got married there? Yes. We got together there in Comitan. We had a ceremony there very much like with the female leaders. And those female leaders married us. It was not the church, but they said, Well, you are like this, and we declare you compañera uncompañero, and that's it. Another kind of church. Yes, that's how we got together. Still something sacred. Yes, yes. And originally then you were, well, near Ishkan with your parents, where they are still. Yes, originally uh my parents lived in a village called El Parmar de San Miguel Uspantan. I was born there. By the way, I I went there two years ago and I found the house where I was born. And it was very exciting. I had a very, very, very vague memory of what the house was like.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

And here, you know, it was like this. How we all got around it.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Crazy on a bike. I remember it well.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

There weren't any motorcycles. We arrived and I took them. They said, We want to go to El Palmar, I want to see where I was born to, right? And we went. It was incredible. When we arrived in Chicaman, my father said, Well, son, from here to there, ask me. I know the way. Okay, Dad. Then go ahead and guide me. We arrived in Uspantan and he knew the way, right? He said, We've already checked into our lodgings. Tomorrow we'll go to the village, which is maybe fifteen kilometers from the town. And I said to him, Well, Dad, where are we going? No idea, son. This place has changed so much. And then I said, Well, let's ask around. I say, let's go east, shall we? Looking for the Chisoy River, they call it the Rio Negro there. And my father had no idea where like me and Fry now, of what it had been like. No, he had no idea. Wow, it had changed so much, too. A lot. He says there were hills like that that had no vegetation when he lived there. And now that we've arrived, it's full of forests, pines, live oaks, white oaks, because it's national land. That's what I learned. So there are some families, the Reyes, the Urizar, the Ramirez, and they live scattered like that in hamlets. They have another name for it. And it was very exciting to arrive. At first to me, it seemed like a desolate town. Completely it shocked me. When I arrived, I said, Well, Dad, where's the village here? It's here. And I said, But there's no one here, right? There's no one here, and everything's closed. So he was going to look for a lady who was a friend of his named Irene. And anyway, and Doña Irene yes, and the lady says, The older one or the daughter? I say the older one, logically. Oh, she lives in that little house. We knocked, and the old lady came out, and she said, Bartolo, that's my dad's name. They hugged, and she said, and him? Well, he's candido. Oh, well, all your children are mine. She was my midwife. She passed away last year. But I still saw her. From curable diseases like diarrhea and all that.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

And my mother wanted to identify her children at the cemetery. Impossible. After many years, they cannot go.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Because they migrate to Ishkan and they are more or less 10 years in Ishkan. Then came the worst of the war. They had to flee. They spent 12 or 14 years in Mexico. And back then, Ishkan wasn't like today. Now I can just hop in a car and go. Back then, to get to Uzbantan, he had to walk for three days. There was no road. And so arriving and seeing where your loved ones were wasn't possible. That's where I come from. Later, I spent my youth in Santa Maria Teja. And in the prime of my youth, I participated in the resistance struggle after they burned my village. So we survived, and I participated in all the organizations. So I was too. And so I had these conflicting thoughts about what to do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Because we were civilians.

Cooperative Model And Town Design

SPEAKER_00 30:27

My parents were members of a cooperative. But the government at that time believed that cooperative members were communists.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

And if they were considered communists, they had to be killed.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

So it was a very narrow view of the government. That's why I think now that education has to give a broad view of the world. That is, there's room for everyone on this earth, regardless of your beliefs, whether it's through cooperatives, private enterprise, or if it's on an individual level or through collective action, whether you believe in any religion, any culture, I believe we can live together. I believe we can be complementary. And that vision we somehow try to instill in young people so that war is a guarantee, that war caused by the very, very narrow views of governments never happens again. But the struggle wasn't about what is commonly taught. For me, those who governed saw us as a colony. And that way of thinking was extremely prevalent in the 80s, in the 70s, even in the 90s.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

And it still persists today.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

I mean, it hasn't been eradicated. There's less of it, but the forms of government no longer use the army like they did back then to repress people. Now they use other methods. Well, I think there are the businessman has the right to set up his business. But what he doesn't have the right to do is take the land away from the small farmer. And that's the problem in Alta Vera Paz in recent years, where there are hydroelectric plants, where there are oil companies, where there are palm plantations, and they try to deceive the small farmer. Practically speaking, the land is stolen. And then through the legal system, it's not the army anymore, but the judicial system that represses in Guatemala. Now it's the public prosecutor's office. Before they killed you, now they put you in jail. That is to decolonize our thinking in order to build a democratic society. So while the young people who were in the army were carrying rifles, we were the young people in cooperatives carrying stones. That's how it was.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Most of us fled. We fled towards the mountains. However, in while fleeing, because it wasn't very organized, because as I said, there were cooperative members, we were young.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

I remember at that time in Seja there was no running water, much less drinking water. We bathed in the river, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:37

And I was in the river when we heard some gunshots.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

And then my friend said to me, No, no, no, we have to get out of here. Let's go home. And we ran home. How old were you? I was six. Between sixteen and seventeen years old. And we ran home. And at home my parents and siblings had already left the house. And then we went out too. We went and scored our plot of land and I found Well, the army had arrived at the village. They started shooting everywhere. And did they arrive by car? No, no, not yet. On foot. Walking? On foot? Because there was no road. They went in, they went in on foot, and they started shooting everyone they looked at. That day they didn't kill anyone from my village.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

The next day, or three days later, I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

They killed some children who they were hiding in a plot of land. They were with some pregnant women. They were all from the same family, and they were killed. I think about 15 children and a pregnant woman. All of this is documented, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:02

I was left with three younger siblings because my parents got lost during the escape.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

And we were left alone for more than 15 days in the mountains with absolutely nothing. And I joined the group of mestizos from Seja, and together we stood guard. The people stood guard to protect ourselves. The adults, the women, cooked food at night. And the men went to the fields for corn, right? To the granaries. And that's how we were surviving. We went out in a group, right? So we, young people, our job was to stand guard and erase what we called footprints. But it was impossible to erase them. And where a lot of people went, we left a big trail.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

And uh that was the way to resist, right?

Growth, Ownership, And Migration

SPEAKER_00 37:00

In an organized way, and I was already in what we called camps. At that time, the communities of people in resistance, which came later, didn't exist yet. At that time, we were simply fleeing. It is the same time as the massacre in Pan Sos after. I'm already talking about 1982, February of 82. I think the 14th or the 12th was a very difficult time. It was very difficult. But that was the case in many places. It was like that in Seha, but it was like that all over the country, especially where indigenous communities lived. And from what culture did they come or do they come? Because they're still alive, right? Yes, my parents, you know. I think there was a process of mestizake, of racial mixing. I haven't figured it out exactly. I think my paternal grandparents came from Baja Verapaz, I think. And I think my maternal grandparents were from Totonicapan, I think. It's not something I'm certain about, but I think it was a process of mestizaje that went on for many years. Or perhaps the Pokom language of Rabinan. But all of that was lost over the years. And when we got to Seja, well, my parents didn't speak it anymore. I knew my grandparents, and they didn't speak it either. So I don't know exactly when it was lost, but based on my deductions and the surnames, I think we come from there. So what was the year when uh well I understand the whole family went to Mexico?

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

What year was it? In eighty-two. Oh wow, quick. Yes, there were two or three months in the mountains, and then we started running out of food. And then uh there was a heated discussion among the people. What do we do?

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Um at that time in March of 82, the coup d'etat takes place.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Riusmon declared an amnesty, and they were flying all over Ishkan in small planes saying, Brother, they weren't calling us cooperative brothers, but subversive brothers. Surrender. There is a new president, and he's going to spare your lives. And then the catechists and the cooperative members discussed what to do and say, Ha. There were two groups. Some decided to stay for a while, and the mestizo group decided to leave immediately. There were young people who knew the border. And that group of young people led the others not by road, but through the mountains, through the jungle, because they would have been killed on that road, right? And another group decided to stay even longer, maybe a year, in the early days of the CPR in Ishcan, living in under the mountain. And one group surrendered to the army with the amnesty. Then Santa Maria Tseja was completely divided. One group went to Mexico, another group stayed in the resistance, another group surrendered to the army. And from there the story begins. They reunited with the families who had surrendered to the army. That was very impactful because they united and rebuilt their ways of life. Of course, each group had different experiences. Those who came from Mexico had certain ways of working and organizing. And I think that those who stayed under the control of the army. And then others come along and say, no, here we decide we are going to reorganize the village. So I imagine that was tough.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

Well said.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

And the young people, the landless ones. So I fell into the category of the landless youth, right? Children of farmers. And we also had the right to access land. And that's why I came here. Another story. We came here where there were no relatives, where no one who knew us before was waiting for us, but rather where the Kekchi people were, who had also lived in the same conditions as the families who were in Seja. When we arrived here, we went outside and started making contact with Suspila, which is right there, quite small. And people were closing their doors because before we came, the Guatemalan army had run a campaign telling the Kekchi people that we Retornees were bad people and that the same story.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Yes, yes, yes.

Palm Oil Frontiers At The Doorstep

SPEAKER_00 43:40

And well, uh, we arrived and we wanted to do some business. Buy oranges, because there was nothing here. And some of them who had served in the army were the most open. They really wanted to talk to us. We started making contact with them. This road you see over there, that one leads to the villages in the south. There was no road there because the landowner, who now owns the palm plantation, wouldn't give them permission to build a road there. So when we came, we gave permission to build the road here. And helped them negotiate with the landowner. And that's how they built the road. And when you went south, instead of paying to have roads built, you used the new one. Today they still use it, just like Chotal, just like Cispila. We've integrated, in my opinion, quite well. Of course, this has not been easy. Yes, there have been visions of us too, mostly of older people, of women and men, who all wanted to be on an island.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

And when I came here, I was 30.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Today I'm 60. And so the young people of that time who were at the forefront of all this, well, we were completely crazy. We wanted to create a beautiful community. We had many, many assemblies to talk things through. The good thing was that we discussed all of our differences in assembly and then voted. The men have lots, the women have lots. And that was achieved in those early assemblies. And others who were also indigenous said no.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

So the majority, but we didn't come to lay streets, we came because we want land.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

And we young people said, yes, we agree with you. We want land, but this town is going to grow. And we have the opportunity to leave a well-planned town with streets and avenues that took us time in the workshops. That's why we spent six months in the workshops designing how we would build the village. And we planned it very well. In the end, the idea, in my opinion, and supported by many older people as well, because we have to acknowledge that, but especially by the young people of that time predominated. And that's why we have wide streets today. At that time, I was also on the Improvement Committee, the community's residents, because at the time the Cocodes weren't in place, decided to set aside two hectares of the village's civic center and more than one hectare of the school. Another debate. Huge. Why so much space for the school? Because we're going to grow. The education is important. And that was in the assemblies. It was tiring, very tiring. Because there were things that were obvious to many of us. That land had to be set aside for that. While for others, it was a no, no, and no. But in the end, in the vote, even if it was just by one vote, the idea that yes, a large space for the school won. And a large space was set aside for the school. By the way, we didn't set aside any space for the church. Yes, yes. And there still isn't one. We didn't leave it at the community level. Then the churches reacted and said, where does that leave us? And of course, then the Catholic Church managed to keep the best plot of land in the center at the cooperative assembly. Of course, I didn't vote for it. I'm Catholic, but I didn't vote for it because well, because no. And the evangelical churches bought land. That was another process, too. I mean, look, there were two visions. One, yes, everyone in a cooperative, but there was a vision of a cooperative with associative ownership, and another of a cooperative with individual ownership. That's where we lost. That is, yes, I have my plot, but all the property belongs to the cooperative, and to prevent the buying and selling of land and to ensure no one is left without land, but we lost there. So the idea of individual ownership won out, and we respect it fully. And that's the model we have today, private ownership. Everyone has a deed, and there's a market for buying and selling land. Many people have lost their land, but we knew the consequences of that was coming.

Antonio 48:59

That's intense.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

But what about after 30 years in this context? Would you still consider it a success to maintain the cooperatives and its democratic structure? And it seems to be working, even though it's growing quite a lot, which could present a new challenge. But is it going well? Yes. Look, the cooperative has had its development. Not linear, but I would say spiral. From having only the land to owning a hotel, to owning a cable company to a rubber production facility. Already having the land reserves that we had left as uh that no one would touch as a reserve as protected forest. I believe those decisions have had significance. Today there are several opinions for some who believe the cooperative has already fulfilled its purpose, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:05

I guess so.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Yes, because they say, okay, how much money do we receive each year? And they receive six hundred quetzales. And then we say, no, but what do we do for the cooperative? And we do nothing. So that debate exists from the beginning. I think there's a 30% who never wanted the cooperative model, who wanted land, and that's why they're there. And now I think that that 30% has grown to 40% who don't want the cooperative model.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

But they want what the cooperative has built.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

And the cooperative survives because most people still say it's important.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

But I don't know for how long.

Power, Elites, And Local Democracy

SPEAKER_00 50:57

For example, in Malcotal, which you visited, where you saw that lagoon the oil company built, there were like some seven caballerias of land, I may be mistaken about the data, but we left it as a reserve from when it was divided into parcels. It's the same cooperative. Yes, it's the same cooperative. We bought three farms, four actually. Exactly. We bought from that general more than seventy caballerias that belonged solely to him, and it was one of his small plots of land, because he owned many here in Alta Verapaz, many nationwide, because at that time, well, and even now, presidents appropriate public property.

SPEAKER_02 51:54

And then he sold it to us. Right?

Water, Drought, And Resilience

SPEAKER_00 52:01

And I think that now the cooperative is at a moment of decision for the future. It may well stay for a while longer. There are some members who are eager for us to sell everything the cooperative owns. Sell the main building, sell the land, but well, that's a narrow view in my opinion. Because those seven caballerías of land we set aside as a reserve two years ago. It was decided in an assembly that these would be allocated to members without public deeds. And there we have roughly one hectare per family. And those who want to sell quickly forget that it can't be sold. Because that land no longer exists in the land registry. Because there are duplicate deeds and that needs to be fixed. Well, I think the most important thing is that people keep fighting to get ahead. But of course, that thinking of some is a bit contradictory. Because when you decide it's a cooperative with private property, that already sets you on a course. It already determines the individual growth of each member. And we only have a few things in common. So I'm very clear on that. Here things have grown. There are those who no longer dedicate themselves to agriculture. They dedicate themselves to business. Others have become professionals. They do work with the government, with the banking system. Here in this community, you have teachers, you have lawyers, you have accountants, you have agronomists, you have merchants, and now you also have many migrants. Many, many people who have seen an opportunity to go to the United States to work and earn money. And there are hundreds of young people. They're going to do the jobs that Americans often don't want to do. Yes, of course, exactly. And that's when things get tough. So proportionally, it's a large part of the Guatemalan people. Because I believe that the same people there need poorly paid labor for themselves, even though it's very good for us. Because well, over there we know that the lowest earner makes about$15 to$20 an hour. The lowest earner. And of course, here it is uh twelve quetzales an hour. Which is equivalent to about a dollar and a half. So what's very good for our brothers and sisters is that they're in the conditions they're in, of course, renting houses in these groups, having a lot of limitations on being able to send money to Guatemala. And watch out, because the other day I heard the president from Mexico, and she said that the Mexican brothers and sisters only managed to send 30% of what they earned back to Mexico. And 70%, they have to use it in the United States to survive. And that's similar to what's happening here. So a country that wants to export its workforce, I think they're going to lose a lot too.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

And of course, if there were a capitalist economic system but one of competition where everyone wins, I think there wouldn't be a need for this migration situation.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Because if we emigrate, it is because the United States has historically used Guatemala as a country to plunder. Then we can't. We're not stupid. I mean, we're intelligent. We're hard workers. But if you don't have the means, while over there they have machinery, and here you are with a machete, well, it's impossible to complete, right? Unless you have a different perspective and say, okay, I'll forget all this nonsense and I'll start living on my own little life. But of course, young people don't want to leave the global village. You need money for the internet, you need money for a car, you need money to travel. It's impossible, isn't it? So I hope they don't achieve what they're proposing. For now, the younger generation from Lana Hueva doesn't think so. They already lived through the time this man's government was in power, and the people didn't leave. They stayed there. And look, now we have it here. Look. An agency of the Inter American Bank, industrial bank, a stationary store. That's right then.

Antonio 59:58

There used to be nothing on this. Street.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Hola. Hello. Yes, it's so different. And your house? We're almost there. Correct. Straight ahead. Two blocks. Look, we have two. And we have to talk about that owner you mentioned. About what we can see from here. The African palm. Ah, yes, by the way. If you look there, you can see the palm tree. Yes, indeed. We're on a street 15 meters away. The palm starts 15 meters away from the community. 15 meters. And right up to the processing plant? Yes, and more and more. It's kilometers of palm groves. And to the north as well, through the plot, as I saw, surrounded by palm trees. Surrounded? Surrounded by palm trees. Yes, yes. This little forest we have left is in the south. But anyway, here, you know, the other day there was a fly problem. And people were complaining that flies were eating their dogs' ears and their cats and chickens too. And we were saying, well, why? Apparently the palm tree company introduced the type of fly as a biological control. But this fly is uh it sucks the blood of animals. And here, as they come to throw uh the matter left over, raw material, not raw material, but the waste after extracting the oil, which they call, I don't know, I I think it's gravel. And they throw it away to fertilize the palm, but since that's not yet completely composted, it's it's in the process, and that's why it attracts so many flies. And those who live around here get it really, really badly. It gets to my house less, but it still gets there because I'm only about two blocks away, you see. Some people have told me it smells really bad, too. Yes, that's the thing. Like I said, it's not yet in a state of complete decomposition, otherwise it would be fertilizer. It's still rotting, so it stinks terribly, and it attracts bugs too. I'm trying to imagine the process of cutting down all the trees, the entire forest from that that land. So the farmer who had pasture left, a certain amount of forest to conserve the water sources, because he needs the water for the animals. And then the palm oil companies came and wiped out those small forests that were there.

The Food Processing Venture

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

And then, yes, in those small forests on those farms, where the last remaining wild animals lived, well, when that happened, it was a complete disaster.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:36

In Frye, they bought large farms, unlike other places where they bought small plots. They were interested in large farms.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

And then here at the cooperative, they came wanting to buy that reserve I'm telling you about to plant palm trees.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

We went to a meeting and said no. It was said no. At the Adelina School years ago, when they started, they received much more criticism than they do today.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

Now we know them.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:11

We know what they do. We know that not everything they do will do damage. But many practices uh damage the water sources and the soil, right? Back then we didn't. And there was a kind of a view among some people who didn't want anything to do with them. And another group of us who are like, well, let's see what happens. And that time at school, I organized a field trip for the students to go and meet the technicians and hear them speak. I told them, you have to see for yourselves, not just what I tell you. We organized it and they welcomed us. They stopped the machinery for that time to attend to the students. They gave them hard hats and explained, well, this is what we do. They saw the factory, and then we returned to the school. And we said, So what do you think? What do you see? And the students began to give their critical opinions, right? They too accompanied the social workers and the main engineers, and I said to them, So what? What are you going to do now? Well, now we're going to reflect.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

I taught that in a social sciences class.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:39

And I said, Okay, now we're going to reflect on what you've observed. And well, the students were amazed. They said, Oh, we've never seen machinery like that. And others said, But it stinks. But it's just one plant. There's no diversity of forests, I tell them. Because we're talking about diversifying crops for food production, and they say over there they only produce one thing. They only produce oil. And here at the school we produce everything. And then the men were listening to the young people's opinions. They respected the opinions. They didn't debate, they just listened. And then they asked me, what does the school need? And I tell them, well, teachers' salaries. This is self-financing. And they say, Well, let us think about what we can do. And they came back soon, about two months later, a delegation came and he asked for a meeting. And we gave him the opportunity. He said, We can help the Adelina school. We offer you a high school diploma program in the Palma. We pay the teachers, and you set up the school with the high school diploma program, which is a diversified program in the Palma. We'll finance it, and we said no. Definitely not. So I tell them, look, you know what? Go ahead and finance it, right? The school and let the women's association decide uh what the study model will be. They left uh immediately.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:18

Nope, they didn't even give us a bottle of oil. It's just that's just how it was.

Hopes, Lessons, And Thanks

SPEAKER_00 1:07:28

Not a single bottle. That's what I heard you saying in my mind, your words about broad education. That's not it. Of course. You you can't reduce yourself to uh look, we're talking about palm trees. But when you have uh the problem is monoculture, really. The problem is it doesn't matter if that's the case. If you have to sacrifice all forms of life, the diversity of life in a territory, even the water, you're going to affect the elements of life, as the Kekchi people say. The water, the air, the land, you're going to kill them. As we say here, the palm oil is bread for today, hunger for tomorrow. Yes, yes, and we've seen it. For example, there are many people here, some young, not many, who work in the palm groves. Many of the young people from La Nueva who have gone as day laborers to work in the palm groves can't handle the work days and say, no way, we're not going back to work in the palm groves. But the young people from the communities, because they hired 35 to 18-year-olds, yes, 35 at the most, why? Because they need a lot of energy to cut the bunches of palm fruit, and that's heavy. And then the people who own the land in the communities, they need a means of transportation to get to the palm plantation. They sell a piece of land, buy a motorcycle, and use it for work. The palm company pays them the minimum wage established by Guatemalan law. But as you can see, it's minimal. And with that money, they earn, since they can no longer dedicate themselves to producing food, they don't have enough to buy food. It's the cycle. And then there's a man I'm going to mention to you now, he's Don Don what's his name Siriaco from over there in Malcután. He has about three or four hectares diversified. He has everything. And I tell him, look, what's up with your neighbor? Ah, he says, because he works with the palm trees, that's why his land is overgrown. But I'm going to buy that land, he says, because I'm diversifying. Every year I sell pepper, I sell cinnamon, I sell rubber, I sell chickens, I sell everything. And with the salary they'll use to buy the motorcycle that's going to break down in two years, they're going to sell another piece of land. I am preparing to buy that piece because I provide jobs here, he said. He's a model of a farmer who lives off the land, who doesn't just have one thing, he has many things. He has a little difficulty walking. He walks to the limp and he says, I'm here. I produce everything. That's it. Sometimes I don't have money, but I have food. On the other hand, the man in La Palma, if he doesn't get paid or prices go up, he doesn't have much food. That's the model. So well, the companies in Guatemala pay so little, unlike the European companies in Spain that I knew, which are companies that always win. But the standard of living for workers is different. I mean the worker has more or less what they need to have life covered.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:04

In other words, a worker has vacation time. Well, not here. Here it's here companies earn too much and workers earn very little. That's the secret. So that's why growth is so uneven. It's abysmal.

Antonio 1:11:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:38

It has been interesting because of the town of Frye. Everyone speaks of awareness, of truly understanding what La Palma has cost. So on the one hand, it's uh it's an education, an education in itself, but a very damaging one. It turned out that many people now know and regret what has happened. And Don Seferino, the previous mayor, told me that the municipality couldn't defend itself against that supposed development, which came from uh much larger forces from the federal government and of course the the the companies. But the municipality couldn't do anything different? If you all decided against it, why couldn't the municipality at the national level who governs this country? This country is governed by big businesses by they call it uh the acronym Cassif, which includes the financiers, the industrialists, the agribusinesses, and they uh acquired a lot of wealth from their great great grandparents during colonial times. That's why there are all families like the Pantaleones, the Herreras, the Potranes, the Azures, and the uh Pollo Campero, I was going to say, but it's the Gutierrezes, right? And so I could name 20 families who aren't exactly hard workers, but they, just like in the colony during the time of the Spanish colony, clearly saw the government in the hands of the government. It was clear that the power was exercised by the colonizer, the landowner. He sets the rules. In the signing of the Independence Treaty of 1821, they made a treaty between liberals and conservatives, which allows them to maintain economic power in Guatemala. But uh they pretend that political power belongs to the people, that there is over the years that there has been a democratic government. But that's false. Because in Guatemala there are no real political parties. In my opinion, there are instruments of these powerful families who stage the charade of democracy, of elections every four years, but they are still behind all that power.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:22

I don't think it's impossible.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:24

I believe we need to form alliances because ultimately we Guatemalans pay for the money the state manages, not just the wealthy, but everyone, through taxes. Here we all pay taxes, absolutely everyone. And it's a matter of what do you want? I mean how far do you want to commit? Of course, if you're mayor who wants to have a good life on a personal level, uh well, if you fall outside of that script, they're going to screw you over. So you have to be prepared to suffer the consequences. To say, no, uh I'm going to run a government of the people here. But what's easier? Uh to be receiving commissions from construction companies and from the other companies that come into the municipality, like the extractive companies. We're talking about palm oil, hydroelectric companies, oil companies, or to run a good democratic government. I believe it is possible that the fight must be waged. Because there should be an economy. There should be business people in Guatemala, but those business people shouldn't control political or judicial power. They say that democracy is made up of three independent branches of government. The legislative, the judicial, and the executive branches. In Guatemala, we elect the executive. They use tricks and all to make us believe in the presidential and vice-presidential candidates. But when we elect representatives, there are like two categories. Those from the nationalist, which nobody knows, and those from the departments. This traffic it's definitely different to have this kind of traffic here in La Nueva. Yes. And then for example, I think that we only half-heartedly elect our representatives because there are many we don't know. And there's the system, the judicial branch. I don't know of any other Central American country where it's elected, nor in Mexico. And I don't think it's the same in the United States. The judicial branch, they uh name each other, and that power, it's like it's above the other two branches of government in Guatemala today. So if that's going to be the case, at least we should get to choose them too. Of course, we should know who the people are who will be on the courts. Who will be the judges, but for that you need not to have an illiterate population. Look, there's a population that knows how to read and write, but that doesn't look beyond that. And when I say an educated population, I mean a population that understands these processes and has the freedom to propose. Today they make us choose. We don't choose if they tell us here's this, this, and this, right? And in that sense, well, I think it's difficult for the municipalities, but I think that has to change. And I have hope that it will change. Uh maybe uh in a couple of decades. If we continue down the path that we're on today with this government, the government has many problems, but at least there's now a power in which the powerful class today does not have a hundred percent power, which is the executive branch, because this president was not appointed by them. And so uh he has a lot of criticism and all that, I understand. But of course, if you're alone with a lot of people who have a different vision of how to build the community, well, it's difficult, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:01

Yes, we have to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:03

Not having that power anymore if we continue in the next elections maintaining that quota, but also getting more representatives, I think we can aspire to a real democracy. But for that, we have to lose the fear of participating. And when I say lose the fear, I don't mean that you're going to expose yourself. The school's right there. All this land belongs to the school. That place I was telling you about over there, the debate from there to there. Oh, really? And it's not lost yet? No, no, no, no, no. This was later passed to the Ministry of Education. Now this is no longer in the name of the community, but in the Ministry of Education. Yes, yes. So all this was sometimes planted by the kids here at school. Hey, they still have the composting latrines. What's that palace? That's from a young man who emigrated to the United States. A young man? And I know that uh he works for a construction company and also at an evangelical church. Apparently it's a company that pays a lot of money. There's a lot of tithing there, I think.

Antonio 1:21:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:36

So you said you still have hope that things will change. And how do you explain that you still maintain this disposition in the face of all this? I think we each have um whether we can explain it or not, we believe in a lifestyle, a way of life. And I'm one of those people who thinks that if I want to be well as an individual, and when I say well, I mean healthy, able to move around easily regardless of age, and have access to services like water and education in my own home. Well, that only works if everyone has the same things. Fighting for good roads is also about having access. You're not going to fight for a good road if, of course, there aren't even any horses in your community.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:56

And I believe that.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:58

And on the other hand, I think what I learned from the conflict has helped me a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:05

From the conflict that happened in Guatemala.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:14

I am clear on why there was so much bloodshed.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:34

If we have an education with a socio-critical approach and a human development model, that wouldn't have happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:43

Nobody would have wanted to pick up a gun to kill someone. I mean, what do you want for yourself? You want to live well, don't you? You want to be with your family, you want to uh walk in the woods, you want to go to the city, you can build your house. It doesn't matter the style. It's going to be your house. It's going to be very beautiful to you. And even if it looks ugly to someone else, but just because it looks ugly to someone else doesn't give them the right to destroy it. And that's the point. That's where I think we can all live respecting that way of life. And so I think that the fight must continue. I wake up every day thinking that this has to change. Same here, man. So what kind of work do you do? What's your specific role within the association? What's your objective?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:52

Well, I do two types of work.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:54

There's the formal technical kind, which over the years I've specialized in, focusing on the management of community development projects. And that's what I do in the association. And that's how I get paid by projects. It's not a permanent job, right? Sometimes I'm unemployed. It ends because the life of a project has a limited time. It has well-defined resources and well-defined actions to achieve results in a specific time and place. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:07

Look at this.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:08

This is what the little ones have planted from the elementary school students. And there's the classroom. And how many years ago was that then? About 30 years ago or what? Yes. Well, the land about 30 years ago. These woods maybe 20, 25 years ago. The hall about 18 years ago. And well, that we built that hall with the profits from the cooperative. There was a time when latex was worth a lot. So we made a profit and we did it. With that, we finished paying off the land because it was a revolving fund. And the casco belongs to the cooperative. It belongs to the cooperative. That was the house of General Lucas, and it is already a hotel and restaurant. It's a hotel. It's uh the place where the headquarters of the Nueva Visión Company is located. There's a dining room, a meeting room, and also a beer kiosk, the guys say. It's maintained, uh it's maintained by the cooperative. Yes, very good. There's a very significant achievement in this as well, isn't there?

Antonio 1:28:25

In itself, that is, that this land has become part of the cooperative.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:32

And all the activities and the community are part of it. It can still be a symbol of, I don't know, of the vision you have. I think that look, La Nueva Libertad with its complications and its beautiful aspects is a benchmark for development in the municipality. It's truly a benchmark, even in football. Seriously. They put 40 teams in to play over two days, and they come from all over. So La Nueva is uh I think our goal, our dream of arriving, of living, not just surviving, but giving and being part of Guatemala. We've achieved it uh with difficulties, but we're achieving it. And well, there are many things to do, uh community things, those long assemblies where we've debated everything, and uh they happen less and less and are more heterogeneous because now we're clearly separated uh what belongs to the cooperative from what belongs to the community. We elect the cocode every year, and families who aren't for the community also have the right to be members of the cocode, and that's where the different perspectives begin, right? For example, these streets still belong to the cooperative right now. Been a heated debate. They say, well, we want the municipality says, I can't fix the streets because they're private. Transfer them to the municipality. We say, if I give them to you, what happened with Fry will happen again with people encroaching on them. And so why don't we reach a mixed agreement with the municipality involved, but also with the cooperative also involved? There are attempts here sometimes. There have been attempts by some families, for example, to narrow the streets.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:51

They take in a meter or two, and the cooperative has forced them to return.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:57

That doesn't happen in Frye. They invade public areas, and the municipality hasn't had the power to enforce respect for public property. It's very clear why not. Because people say, Well, what do you think? Well, people get corrupted. For now, here, that hasn't happened. It hasn't happened. That's another achievement. We have strength in that area, but it's still there. For example, now they say they want to pave the street, and there is an assembly agreement. I haven't been to the assemblies in about two years. I'm in a phase of deep reflection. And then uh they approved laying the pavement, and I say, well, in my opinion, they should have put in other services first and then the pavement. For example, a system of wastewater treatment. The streets need to be torn up. If you already have pavement, then the pavement needs to be torn up again, and that pavement comes at a cost. But hey, people like to see the pavement. Yeah, that's right. And I respect that. But what you're talking about, I hear there was a pretty severe drought last year. So here, even though it rains a lot, water is incredibly precious. It lasted six months and practically everything dried up. And we in the association at the school learned from that drought. We say, well, can we prevent droughts?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:53

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:54

No. We can't do it alone. Is there anything we can do to lessen the impact? Yes. And we've said, well, for people who own the land, we believe that continuing to diversify with fruit trees and timber trees is good for preventing droughts. Covering the soil with legumes, we believe, is also preventing the effects of drought. And we have challenges. Now we want to learn to harvest rainwater and to use household wastewater. To have water for family gardens during the drought. Those are some of the challenges we face. But we've already talked about that with the kids. We're currently in this year, it's mandatory because we saw the garden, you see, uh there at the school you visited. Only the deep-rooted fruit trees remained. All the shallow-rooted ones, like the chives, the zamat, and the yebamora, were gone. So uh we have to avoid monoculture to prevent the drastic effects of drought. We have to creo que I think everyone who has land should plant some things because otherwise, and this has a lot of coverage here. You see, it's been around for a while now. We always maintain it. We wanted to start a startup business here uh for food processing. Well, we have some machinery there, but we weren't successful. So there we have the house. There is the lot. Everyone contributed their grain of sand. Now there's a type of flower growing there.

Antonio 1:34:53

That's great, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:54

It's good to see this. I don't think Patricio saw this, but it's currently unused. So did Patricio live with you in your he was there for a while.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:08

I didn't bring the key, otherwise you could see.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:12

But I think there's going to be something there. Wait a moment. I'll go to the house and let's see if we can record it. This is going to bring back memories of Patricio. Very good.

Antonio 1:35:25

Choco bananos!

SPEAKER_00 1:35:26

Choco bananos. They're very good. Do you think you'd want to attract more volunteers again? Yes, if there were any, of course we would. And why not? There are plenty of people who come to Guate and go all over the place. Why not? It's a bit neglected. Patricio did see this.

Antonio 1:35:54

Who made them?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:55

A student. He's a hippie who spent some time here.

Antonio 1:35:58

Some hippie that kind of that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:03

Let's see what you're looking at over here. Ah, the lights don't work. I'll open this door. Oh, it smells like it needs cleaning.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:12

Well, this is the venture we have.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:15

We want it to work. How lovely. We put things to wash and everything. Everything's fine. Turn off here. This is an oven, an engine. How many people lived here? Most about 12 people lived here. No wooden tables for cleaning. This is a food-grade stainless steel.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:44

We have a dryer here. A dryer.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:51

To dry ginger, a product that we made. But we found that with this type of wall and this type of false ceiling, they wouldn't authorize the venture. And so we trained 20 people to work on all of this. They started producing teas and flowers. We sold teas and flowers. But no, we weren't successful because we found a buyer for one year.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:26

And he told us I'll buy a little from you each month.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:31

But if you haven't obtained the health registration and started a billing system within a year, I won't be able to continue buying. It's a money problem. And while this can be expanded upon. Speaking of that, is there any support we can offer here to help people be heard?

Antonio 1:37:56

Support that can help us take important steps forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:22

And that's why we started. This equipment was donated to us by New Zealand. This oven, all of it. And then we started training. A volunteer from Germany was here training people in processing. And she did it very well. You know the Germans are very good and well, they're very detail-oriented in everything they start with. And she trained the staff very well. I couldn't even come in here. You had to leave your shoes over there, put on slippers, sand glass, cover your hair, put on gloves.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:04

We got to those conditions.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:07

And then we asked the people from the government. A unit of the MAGA department that authorizes the operation and sanitation of the hospitals. And he says registering the trademark won't be a problem. It'll cost you a thousand quizzales and it's easy. And they offered us their support. And well, we thought if we register the trademark, what's the point if we can get the health permit, especially?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:44

And so we stopped.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:46

And then we here you see we tore down the wall. We reflected and we said, well, maybe it's not worth continuing to renovate the Casa de la Solidaridad. But rather to build a new processing plant there on the Adelina's land, well, that plant requires money, two things, money and technical assistance to build it properly. And then surely the young people we trained have already found jobs elsewhere. They're working. I'm happy about that. Even if it's not for this. And then we'll have to train people again because the crops are still being grown.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:28

We've learned to make flour from turmeric to dehydrate ginger and to make teas from various plants, to make the tuber flour.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:47

Excellent. We had that problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:51

So as you can understand, we also have to change the management of Alarina. We need to put someone more commercially minded in charge. And I'm not that kind of person. I'm a different type. It's good to have a teacher, an administrator, but we need someone more focused on business management, someone who can provide a business acumen that doesn't think too much about the people. Yes, there used to be beds here, but not anymore. We took them away. You can see there used to be bottles here for honey.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:46

They used to make labels, but that's outdated now.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:49

See? This was the label, the brand.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:52

Very, very pretty.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:59

You see, it's still here. How old are they? Oh, sorry. Like three, maybe two years, not more. Yeah, yeah. So um you see they left their slippers there.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:16

Well, it it was a dream.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:18

It was a dream that I still refuse to find it. But of course, this was designed as a house, not for an industry or a semi-industry. And of course, then the the false ceiling.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:38

Made of good wood, the the plastic.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:41

Or of plastic or something. It has to be really, really smooth.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:47

They require it to be smooth so that it can be cleaned properly. Everything must be good. It can't absorb anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:54

This wouldn't work. They used to cut food here and they say no wood because wood absorbs a lot of dirt. Anyway, we put 220 volts there now. So that's how the house where Patricio was now. Tell him to get us support here so they can industrialize the part of Adelina and a good economist. If not an economist, then a good businessman should take charge of this. Because educators are bad at selling. It was a pleasure. Such a pleasure. Really, it's a pleasure, Antonio, to have you here. And well, today I remembered a bit of my youth.

Antonio 1:43:43

That was Candido Reyes Anna Nueva Libertad Alta Verapaz, Guatemala. With thanks to the women of ACM, especially Marisela, including for a wonderful lunch after this walk and talk, and to the whole family for taking us out to the rear quiet land, Candidor talked about. That might make another episode worth sharing at some stage. Enormous thanks also once again to Dana Scott for the translated audio, and of course to you supporting listeners for making this episode possible. This week, special thanks to Ariad Iserina for your donation and for such very generous subscriptions for three years now, Katie Ross, Sarah Mason, Nicole Brahmy, and for four years, Michael Gooden. Finally, thanks Sarah Barker for buying a copy of my old mentor Frank Fisher's anthology off the website. If you'd like a copy, want to join this great community of supporting listeners, get some exclusive stuff and help keep the show going, just head to the website or the show notes and follow the prompts. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Bardin. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.