Donkeys, ‘A Secret Weapon’: And Alejandro Carrillo’s proposal for the WA government

Last week’s very special guest was legendary rancher from Chihuahua, Mexico, Alejandro Carrillo. The episode was titled Re-Greening the Largest Hot Desert in North America with Donkeys, Love & Water. In doing that, Alejandro says donkeys have been a ‘secret weapon’. Sound familiar? That’s what Chris Henggeler at Kachana Station has been arguing is the backbone of the extraordinary regeneration he’s managed in the Kimberley region of Western Australia – similarly from dust and rock, to rehydrated soils and grasslands; and similarly, still getting better year on year. 

Indeed, Alejandro visited Kachana on his Australian tour recently, and was blown away. But the WA government still intends to have Kachana’s donkeys shot by August. 

Tellingly, Alejandro, too, used to kill donkeys as pests, then realised the grave mistake, and lost opportunity, especially with so many landscape, climate and biodiversity challenges right now.

This excerpt from last week’s episode felt worth highlighting as a release on its own this week, given the urgency and importance of what's playing out at Kachana, and given the opportunity this presents further afield. 

It starts with Alejandro’s Kachana visit, leading to a fascinating exchange featuring some of the latest research and his successes in landscape regeneration, improved livestock outcomes, and wildfire suppression (growing more grass, not less!) - all with donkeys at the heart of things. And it sums with Alejandro’s proposal for the WA government right now.

If you care about holistic management, soil health, fire risk, and practical regeneration, hit play, subscribe, share the show, and leave a review so more people can find these ideas. 

And if you've not yet heard the conversation in full, you can head to episode 296 here (with some photos) or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Chapter markers & transcript.

Recorded 9 March 2026.

Title slide: pride of place on Alejandro’s Christmas card last year.

Music: Working the Fields, by Falconer (from Artlist).

Transcript

First Impressions Of Kachana Station

AJ 0:00

You also visited Kachana Station, didn't you? In the Kimberly. Yeah, that was great. Yes. What did you notice there?

Perennial Grass Shows Better Management

Alejandro 0:06

Well, you know, we we were very blessed uh to visit Kachana Station, uh, not only because Chris and his family is there, but also the group that we uh went to visit, they were with a lot of experience on holistic management, uh rational grazing, regenerative grazing, and the interactions were amazing. Now, when we went to Kachana Station, and you had to fly to go there, and we were very lucky because uh Chris's son he flew us in a shopper, in a helicopter. So you really need to can see the perspective of a ranch that is under the Kachana Station and the other places. Like most places we went through, they were more like a drier and more dominated by annual grasses, and you can see the big difference on Kachana Station where more perennial grass is greener, trees uh trees were looking better. Uh water, oh my god, the that's a really interesting place, you know, the Kimberleys, because water is coming from the mountains. I think it's such a beautiful, but definitely Kashana Station was kind of you know set apart from the rest, and it's all about management. Um, yeah, I mean I know they're have this um goal of uh preserving the donkeys, which I also do have donkeys for many reasons, but no, the work is just amazing, it's just beautiful. Uh the work that they they've been doing there. It's it's it gives you hope that many people, you know, obviously including Kashina Station and Khrushchev actually are doing something incredible. And we're still working on that, on those uh that donkey thing. I mean, uh, we're I'm promoting donkeys pretty much everywhere I go, Mexico, US. Yeah, I mean it is is I mean, I can tell that it's a secret weapon, the donkeys, because nowadays, Anthony, the problem uh is not anymore overgrazing. The problem with the grasses is overresting the grasses. And why? Because we're getting into this vicious cycle, like okay, more erratic rain, you know, uh continuous grazing, uh rotating cattle, but in in very large pastures, which doesn't really make that animal impact or herd impact, and we need to bring the biology. And when we say the biology, we mean all those that biology that brings uh livestock, which means like manure, urine, saliva, cofaction, even the act of breathing. And we are seeing see you can see grasses in three colors, like green, gold, and gray. It's very easy for you to remember green and gold because it's your flag.

AJ 3:05

Well, we're a bit confused still. There's a union jack on one of them, and there's a there's green and gold in the sports competitions. So we're but yes, point taken. Okay, yes.

Alejandro 3:13

Gotcha, gotcha. So we as we as ranchers, we want to only see green and gold, meaning green grasses and yellow grasses. I I think that, but unfortunately, in many places that I go, including the Western US, Australia, northern Mexico, we're seeing more and more gray grasses, meaning that grasses are not grey at all. And it's very difficult to change those places, we just got them, and that's why we have the donkeys, you know, because I have seen donkeys thriving eating paper. I mean, believe me, like eating paper.

AJ 3:48

It's they're hardy, huh?

How Donkeys Became A Tool

Alejandro 3:51

Oh, yeah, it's oh, they are hardy, really, really hardy. And then also when you have uh let's set aside that uh gray color because it's like the end oxidation, you know, it's like the end of that grass, it's just dying, just hard is surviving, or maybe it's wearing it. But even a stressed grass that has not much air in the soil, and that's why we talk about oxidation, because oxidation, the meaning is the lack of oxygen, then that grass is going to put a lot of stems and not many leaves. So it's like a perception that you have a lot of grass that is probably very in uh in a stress environment, is it's probably very stressed grass, and it will put a lot of stems and not many leaves. And the cattle thrive on leaves, they don't drive on stems, but the donkey can take those stems, open up, you know, so the sunlight gets in and convert that to manure. That's why it's so critical for us to know the importance of diversity of grazing species, because we usually talk about diversity of uh soil, the soil microbiology, diversity of plants, but we're trying to do a lot of stuff with just cattle, and that's uh a limiting factor nowadays, the way a lot of these arid or semi-arid areas look like or are.

AJ 5:15

I noticed on your homepage even that there's a donkey there. So it, you know, I sort of was paying attention and then reading a bit of the story of the ranch. It sounds like there were donkeys there from the beginning. Did the family keep doing that all the way through, or you've brought them back? And and indeed, what are you doing now with them? What I gather it don't they only become more appealing as you as these things dawn on you.

Alejandro 5:37

Well, to be honest with you, I think we uh when I joined the ranch, well, before I joined the ranch, because you know, when I asked my when I did ask my dad what should I study, he told me study whatever you want, but not anything related to ranching.

AJ 5:51

Yeah, wow.

Alejandro 5:51

So I ended up studying um IT, computer science, and then got my master in in technical management, and I worked 15 years in that in that industry. Then when my dad turned 70, then he asked me for help. So I left my job in the US and joined the ranch in Mexico. And you know, even my first years under uh whatever grazing I was trying to do, I saw a lot of things as a problem. But I never saw myself as a problem, you know, like management was the problem. It was not like invasive species taking over, it was not like horny bushes or you know, even cactus or uh poison plants, uh killing my cows. So what I did at the beginning was kill everything. As Kate Brown said, you know, every morning I I woke up thinking about what to kill. But that didn't take us anywhere because we were not we were not uh changing our management. You know, we got cattle all spread about, all spread across the ranch, a very few pastures, let's say five pastures in uh 10,000 hectares or acres, uh 25,000 acres. And lasamas or ranch is is the meaning is the the ladies, the ladies. That's the meaning is like the mountain, big mountain ranch that we have, and it was a mining town, and that's why lasamas, because you know the mines, all mines, there they are very old mines from the 1700s. They were called like uh female, saint female names, like Santa Maria, and that's what they call because there were so many mines. And these guys used to use uh mules and donkeys. So when we bought the ranch, there were still a few uh feral donkeys, and my dad killed me, you know, because we see them as a pest wrong. Okay, but then when we realized that okay, so we are actually after years after, you know, after I joined the ranch, we didn't have any donkeys, but yeah after I joined uh like three or four years that I kind of started changing, you know, my my mindset, the way I see things, because remember the biggest challenge we have adopting these recharge practices, holistic practices, is the compaction between our ears. That is the biggest compaction that we have.

Research Behind Multi-Species Grazing

AJ 8:19

I've never I've never heard the compaction metaphor for it, but I like it.

Alejandro 8:23

Yeah, so we were as as I was saying, you know, we we we start understanding the importance the importance of diversity of everything, diversity of grasses, diversity of forbs, or uh broadleaf plants, we call it forbs, whatever broadleaf flowering plant, edible and you know, eat raisable by adult. But also I thought about okay, how can I get more diversity of livestock? And then I thought about the donkeys, and then I started researching about the donkeys, and there was this research done in Kenya, where the pastoralists in Kenya, Africa, they were complaining about the zebras, and then these young guys uh from uh uh Princeton University went there to see the study, but the Kenyan government did not allow them to use zebras because you know it's prohibited to use wildlife. So they did the test with donkeys. So they did the test with cattle and donkeys and just cattle, and at the end of the day, the cattle did better together with donkeys, like in daily gains and pregnancy rates than just cattle itself. So it's it's very similar to when you when we talk about uh routinely farming or uh or crops, where we farmers, like farmers complain, say, oh no, but if you put more uh different plants on my cash crop, they're going to be taking the the the the water and the nutrients. Nature doesn't work that way. I mean, nature is actually about collaboration. So my donkeys are like my cover crops, if you want to see it, or service crops, you know. They are improving. And if you have a mountain range like I am, then the donkeys are like all terrain, they can go up and down, and they can graze parts that the cows will not be able to access, and they can eat a lot of the stuff that the cows will not drive on that stuff, like stems and woody plants, and they have they are a bit crazy, but I think it's a great addition. And a lot of people have donkeys for protection. Um, yes, they're pretty well, you know, because you need to think that the evolution donkey was on the mountain range, the horses were on the steps, so the horses use speed to get away, but the donkeys need to think about it what to do because they can run. So they're really good at uh defending themselves, and you know, they have these um other species that can help the herd, but where we actually mess it up with donkeys is we say, you know, we're only gonna have one donkey or two females. Donkeys are social creatures, and they need to have their own family, and that's what we have at the ranch. We have, you know, one, two males, and then the rest are females and little ones, and and they they bonded with the cattle. I mean, they they miss each other, it's it's kind of funny, but they don't they don't go anywhere.

AJ 11:19

It's beautiful, isn't it? Yeah, and I've seen these things at Kachana too, and I do sit here a bit strained with I mean, I I basically am I talking about doggies now everywhere I go, Alejandro, it includes that these ones at Kachana just cannot be shot for the fact that they're social sentient creatures for a start, but the fact that they don't need to be designated as pests, and indeed the benefits of re-socialising and reforming those trusting bonds and so forth across all species is uh pack such a punch as you've been outlining. And then I go back to the start of our conversation and I I recall your observation that our governments are are involved in supporting these experiments to a degree and these gatherings and these learnings. Yes. And indeed, the the state government here, you know, he's won awards via them on the one hand, and then getting this shoot order, which is sort of more in keeping with rules as they have been rather than possibilities as they are now. On the other hand, I wonder with with your I mean, such so much experience around the world too, and meeting different people and appreciation for all sides in a sense. If we had that the government here in the room right now, what would you ask them to consider?

Alejandro 12:39

To give us the opportunity to do uh pilot at an office scale. Just donkeys. Just donkeys, don't put cattle. I mean, and then you know, we have really great tools nowadays to measure like uh just remote, remote sensing, you know, satellite technology that can measure the moisture, can measure the uh the photosynthesis, can measure uh a lot of stuff that is is is I think that is what we're pretending because if the goal or goal is to actually have greener places with more cover, I mean also remote sensing can measure like the cover, the temperatures, the remote sensing does we can we don't have even go, we don't even have to go there unless you know you have to uh adjust the the remote sensing with uh some uh soul test. Uh but reality is that even for example the Kimberly's would be perfect because it's so broken Lana. I mean it's just perfect for for the donkeys. But I would just say, okay, this is our pilot. And remember, uh, for example, in the US, we just recently have a discussion about okay, what do we do? Do we should we use goats or donkeys?

AJ 13:54

Uh-huh. That's a question, right?

Alejandro 13:55

Because because many, many times, uh Anthony, we're trying to prevent fires. I think we we we have fire problems in Australia big time, in the US, big time. I mean, in those two big countries, right? Brazil and so on, but let's just focus in Australia in any ways. And the the the focus, I mean, is uh how can I reduce the fuel load? That is the focus, right? So they put goals because they're browsers. Okay, it's so far so good. I don't think that's the right approach. I think the right approach is how can I fix the water cycle in such a way that I can grow more grasses, that I can hold more moisture, and we will not have if we have a fire, it's going to be very mild because grasses are excellent on keeping the moisture. And we're not only talking about let's say the Kimberlees or other places, we're talking about the true forests that also Australia has that they're burning. And the and the forests that the U Western US has, that they are burning because well, then if you compare goats versus donkeys, goats are almost completely browsers. Donkeys to both donkeys browse less than goats, but they also only graze, and that's the kind of animal that we need. Animal that actually is going to graze and also is going to browse.

AJ 15:21

That is fascinating.

Forest Crowding And Destructive Fires

Alejandro 15:22

No, it's fascinating. It's fascinating. We we have uh we're in discussion with the Texas AM and the Department of Defense in the US, where they're trying to use goats. We're telling them, you know, even in Kachana station, that was an incredible experience that we saw. I mean, Chris put an actual, you know, he put fire, an actual fire on a small scale, two places. One side was has been grazed, you know, by livestock and rested, and the other just burned every year. Is it then to go towards annual grasses, not as healthy as when you are actually putting that biology of the cows? And we tried to set the fire on that more perennial base, but we couldn't keep it on keep it on going on on we on where where Chris was actually using fire as a unknown. Oh my god, you should see it, you should see it. Oh, oh gosh. Yes, and I can tell you, for example, working with a uh client in Oregon, um, the US, he has this beautiful ponderosa pants, just huge pants. I'm talking about three 300-year-old, but because of the lack of grazing, the the nature doesn't like bare ground. It doesn't matter where you are, but it will throw something, you know, it will throw uh horny plants, it will throw something if you if you cannot get rid of the grass, it will throw something else. Spin off okay, something, right? But if it is a forest, it's gonna start throwing more pines and more pines, and then you have an overpopulation of trees. And how nature corrects that? You know, we have like a control Lete in the computer, like reset the whole thing. Well mature use fires. But the problem is that the fire will start all over again, which is a natural, you know, natural thing because you're saying, you know, these trees are overpopulated, some of them are dying, and then you know what we do? Oh, let's kill the people that is killing the trees. No, it's that's not the problem. It's that lack of animal infant biology, and then you got this destructive fire, you know, which is a recent nature. But the challenge, company, is that four times are not the same as nature times. That's what we need to intervene, you know.