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Shared Voice by 10-42 Project, A First Responder Podcast
"Shared Voices"
The 10-42 Project is a faith-based resource and refuge organization dedicated to supporting first responders. We equip individuals with essential mental health tools, restore hope during times of crisis, and guide people toward a renewed purpose through the everlasting love of Jesus.
Shared Voice by 10-42 Project, A First Responder Podcast
First Responders Find New Hope Through Ketamine Treatment with Amanda Sieve
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Ketamine therapy is emerging as a groundbreaking solution for first responders battling PTSD, depression, and anxiety – and who better to guide us through this innovative treatment than someone who truly understands the first responder experience?
In this enlightening conversation, we're joined by Amanda Sieve, a physician assistant specializing in ketamine therapy who brings a unique perspective as a fourth-generation first responder herself. Having served ten years on a volunteer fire department while working in emergency medicine, Amanda bridges the worlds of first responder culture and cutting-edge mental health treatment.
Amanda breaks down how ketamine works differently than traditional medications by enhancing memory formation rather than simply inhibiting hormones. She describes it as creating "a blanket of snow" over memories, allowing patients to form new, positive neural pathways without having to verbalize their trauma – a particular benefit for first responders who often struggle to articulate painful experiences.
The conversation takes a powerful turn when Jake, a former police officer, shares his personal journey. Despite trying numerous treatments including therapy, medication, EMDR, and somatic processing, Jake remained severely depressed and suicidal until finding relief through ketamine therapy. His candid testimony offers hope to others who may feel they've exhausted all options.
We explore practical aspects too – what to expect during treatment sessions, insurance coverage considerations, and the importance of creating a safe environment where first responders can let their guard down. Amanda's forthcoming clinic in West Des Moines (opening October 1st) will offer flexible scheduling specifically designed around first responder needs.
Whether you're personally struggling with PTSD or supporting someone who is, this episode removes the mystery around ketamine therapy and presents it as what it truly is: not a way to "get high," but a legitimate medical treatment offering new hope for those who serve our communities. Reach out to Amanda at 515-822-6384 to learn more about this promising path to healing.
If you or someone you know is in crisis and at risk of self-harm, please call or text 988, the suicide and crisis lifeline.
To contact us directly send an email to Dan@10-42project.org or call 515-350-6274
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Welcome and Introduction
Speaker 1Welcome back to another episode of the Shared Voices podcast brought to you by the 1042 Project. We got Jake back with us again. Hello Jake.
Speaker 2Hey Dan, Glad to be here again.
Speaker 1We got an awesome guest with us, Amanda.
Speaker 2Hello.
Speaker 1How you doing Amanda. Amanda's got so much to share and I'm so excited for her to be here. Guys, number one, she's a first responder, but apparently everybody in her family's first responders um, very, very, uh man, she's one of us guys and she also. I brought her on to talk about ketamine treatment and before you like turn this off and kind of freak out, ketamine treatment is an actual legal treatment that is being used to help um, people and first responders because we're people too, believe it or not, with their mental health and some other things. So I'm going to bring her on to talk about that because I'm not the specialist, but she is, and she is actually from the Iowa area, so we're going to have her on. But before we start, I just want to thank everybody for listening, give you a few updates. If you have not signed up to be an ambassador, if you're in the state of Iowa or the surrounding area and you want to be an ambassador for our organization, send an email to our to dan at 10-42 projectorg dan-42projectorg. We're looking for more first responders, first responder family members who want to help, get equipped to go out and to be a light for your area, for people in your part of the state to walk along other first responders, if your family members to walk along other spouses, spouses to help walk along other spouses. We're looking for ambassadors. We get calls all the time of first responders that need help, need support, and we're asking you guys to step up, be part of our organization and volunteer to be an ambassador. So if that sounds interesting to you, reach out Also. Just go to 10-42projectorg Also.
Meet Amanda: First Responder Background
Speaker 1We're in the need. We're growing, we're growing quick. We need some office space. We're praying that God will provide some free office space the bigger the better to set up our podcast studios, to set up our meeting rooms where we meet with people and not counsel them, but we coach them, talk with them. We bring in counselors to talk with them. We need a space.
Speaker 1We're trusting that someone out there has got office space or knows somebody that's got office space that's available that they would be willing to donate to a 501c3 to use. So if that's you or somebody you know or your business, please reach out to us Again. It's dan at 10-42projectorg or you can just call me at 515-350-6274. And thank you. All right, let's get started, amanda. All right, I got a list of questions and I'll try not to interrupt you as best as I can, and I'm bringing on Jake because Jake's had some ketamine treatments. So it's like I got the patient, I've got the. Is it a doctor? What are we what's? Or North practitioner, or I'll let you say what it is. Introduce yourself and give us a little intro.
Speaker 3Yep, my name is Amanda Steve. I am a physician assistant assistant and I specialize in IV ketamine treatments and intranasal ketamine, which is also called Spravato, and I have been doing that for a year and a half now and so that's kind of has now become my passion, because I've noticed how well it improves my patient base and for all the people that are stuck in their either depression, anxiety, ptsd episodes or just even need a mind reset.
Speaker 1So a couple of questions. Are you a?
Speaker 3first responder.
Speaker 1Is that what you told me? Mm-hmm, all right, before we go in too deep, let's talk about that, because I didn't know that Jake had me invite you on and then I heard you got on here and you said you're a your first responder. And the reason why I react like huh because to me it is a big deal, because when we have you know, our organ is I should probably get my microphone back.
Speaker 1Sorry about that amateur, but I can go to my history for first responder yeah, sorry so be able to have for our, be able to have our listeners and our first responders be able to come and listen to another first responder talk about treatment, and you're the person that gives the treatment and you're a first responder and a spouse of a first responder. I think you're the perfect person. So tell us about your first responder-ness.
Speaker 3Yep, so I grew up in West Des Moines. My mom was a Des Moines firefighter and she was a paramedic on West Des Moines EMS. A Des Moines firefighter and she was a paramedic on West Des Moines EMS. So my entire childhood, growing up, I was part of a 911 household. I'm actually a fourth generation first responder. My grandma and my great grandma were also dispatch police and paramedics, so that's kind of Strong woman line yes, yes.
Speaker 3I love it. So initially I had had some interest in the medical field, but not so much. So I ended up going to college. When I got done I was just trying to figure out what worked for me and ended up taking an EMT class and that kind of got me into the first responder occupation. I have been on a volunteer fire department for 10 years.
Speaker 3While I was there, actually, I started working there with my husband and he didn't have anything either, so we just did it more for fun. And then I ended up going to school to become a physician assistant because I figured out that as EMTs I wanted to do more for my patients. So then I decided to go to PA school and then I ran as a PA exempt is what it's called so I can run as a paramedic under the scope of a paramedic. So I ran as a paramedic for on the fire department for I graduated so it'd be seven years after that as a higher level care. And then when I got my PA, I actually work in the emergency department. So continuity of care of patients. So when our first responders would drop off our patients, I would then take care of them and then work alongside nursing staff, which I feel like is a huge component to the first responder world as well.
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely. Wow. You're like superwoman. Holy cow, that's awesome. So what? So how did you go from that to now we're on a podcast talking about ketamine.
Speaker 3So three, four years ago I wanted to give IV fluids to patients because sometimes some patients just need IV fluids instead of going to the ER and getting a full workup, getting imaging done like if they had the stomach bug, stomach flu. So I looked into what it would take in order to start my own business that way. So we could do like mobile home services we could go to patients' homes or they could come to us. We do different events as well Bachelor parties, bachelorette parties. We just finished up with RAGBRAI as well, doing IV fluids. One of my preceptors actually asked me two years ago if I would be interested in doing IV ketamine. I didn't know much about it. So I started doing my research, my studying, asking the pharmacist how it was involved. So I did a lot of research and then started doing IV ketamine treatment and then Spravato came to be a thing as well, so kind of added that into the treatment course. So it all started with the IV fluids, hydration and then added in the ketamine side of things. So we still offer both.
Speaker 1Interesting. So when she says that she is doing ketamine, she doesn't mean that she herself, or maybe she is, but she's talking about medically ministering. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So to make sure I gotta say it's slow for the firefighters.
Speaker 2No, I'm just kidding, just kidding.
Speaker 1All right, wow. So so tell me. So let's get into some science of it, because first responders, man, we're going to pick it apart. We need some evidence, we need you got to prove this to us. So let's talk about some science on how in the world ketamine could possibly help somebody with PTSD depression. What other issues can it help with?
Speaker 3Yep, how can?
Speaker 1you explain that, would you?
Speaker 3Yep. So, going into the physiology part of things, most of your antidepressants actually inhibit your hormones, so it stops certain hormones from occurring, so you don't have too much or too less of hormones, whereas ket um enhances your memory formation, so how you make your memories, that's what it essentially works on. So certain memories will come into thought during your treatment session and it actually replaces it with more of a positive feeling, because while you're on the ketamine, you have a very what I like to describe as a floating feeling. So just you, you're still present, you're still there, you still know what's going on, you can open your eyes and see things, um, but it's more like a more positive experience versus the negative thoughts that initially caused that memory so what's happening during that time?
Speaker 1so so walk me into this. I got back up here real quick, so walk me in. So a first responder wants to get ahold of Amanda because you're going to be opening your clinic soon. Is that correct?
Speaker 3Yep October 1st is hopefully our date.
Speaker 1October 1st and you're going to be located where In Central Iowa?
Speaker 3Yep West Des Moines.
Speaker 1West Des Moines.
Speaker 3Yep.
Speaker 1Okay, so once you're open, let's just first responders listening and him and his wife or her and her husband are sitting there and they're like, wow, we should really try this. And what's the next steps? Walk us through what that is and, and a little bit of again the next steps of how to do it, the whole process, because our first responders need to mentally be able to see what it's like. We like to remove any and all fears that people have to get help, and one of them is just trying to picture it and then to listen to somebody that's been through it, like Jake.
Speaker 3Sure, yep. So most patients have maybe referred by a mental health provider, but if they don't have one they can still call the office and schedule a consult with me. And basically in the consult we kind of talk a little bit about a history. We don't get too too deep into things, but we talk about just kind of what medications they've been on before to see if they qualify for the Spravato and that's the intranasal ketamine, just because that is covered by insurance and so essentially that's most of the time cheaper for patients.
Speaker 3Iv ketamine is also an option. They both work the same, it's just one's covered by insurance, one is not. So they do the consult with me, we discuss the pros and cons, they get the information. They don't necessarily have to schedule right then and there they can think about it. I give them the information that they need. So they have time to go back and research it themselves. But once we get approval from insurance or if they say yes, I want to go ahead and do IV ketamine, we then schedule their treatment plan and that's initially twice a week for four weeks.
Speaker 3So they come in for the treatment session either one or two hours depending on what treatment they're doing, and during that treatment. Initially the first one, they're usually confused on what they're supposed to be doing, so they're like I'm not sure I like this. But once they get into the second and the third, I'm sure they can vouch for that too. The second and the third it's like oh okay, now I know how I'm feeling, now I can just sit here and relax.
The Treatment Experience
Speaker 3I think the most important thing is sitting, relaxing, and it's a I always call it a spa day for your brain. So it actually just quiets your brain for all the thoughts that we have going 24-7. So it slows everything down. Some sessions you'll have thoughts that come in and you're able to process them. Sometimes you won't have any thoughts at all, you'll just be. You'll have a timeout for an hour or two hours and then after the session you will have to have a driver home, can't drive until you basically take a nap Um, no light big life decision, selling your house, anything like that. But then after that they can function as normal when they leave the clinic. Usually they can talk, walk as normal. Um, it's just they can't drive.
Speaker 1So so they, so they get driven home. And then what? Basically just chill in the recliner for a while?
Speaker 3Yeah, just go on with your normal day.
Speaker 1Are the effects still meaning that, the thoughts, the spa for the brain, as you said? Is that the effects of it still happening while you're at home too?
Speaker 3No, so usually when they leave they feel back to normal. So their brain just slowly comes back to what it has been. I've had patients go to therapy right afterwards. It sounds like that has been very beneficial for the ones that do go straight to therapy. But you don't have to do anything in specific that day. What I do suggest for most people is to journal what they feel each day just to see if we have improvement and we do different anxiety and depression screenings just to kind of see the progression and improvement throughout treatment. Or if we have some setbacks, what could have caused that, those kinds of things throughout the treatment sessions.
Speaker 2Dan, I can tell you the first, the first handful of times I did it, I did just go straight home and just chill. But at this point after, after being used to it, first of all the effects, and sooner they just wear, it wears off sooner and I have actually got to a point where I like to run or lift, uh, like when I get home. Uh, I don't know, I'm probably weird, I'm probably the anomaly there, but it. But my point is, by the time you get home you can really do most, most anything you want.
Speaker 1Okay, so how's that differ, then, from man? I've had multiple surgeries, Like when you come out of surgery and you're so like all you want to do is just fall back into deep sleep and for the rest of the day usually with surgery you don't feel like doing crap. Obviously your body's not getting worked on.
Speaker 3but isn't it the same type of medicine that they use? It depends on what they use for sedation. Usually, for sedation, they use more of a sedative versus this one. It's a short acting and the half-life comes out as soon as you know, an hour or two afterwards, so you really feel back to normal.
Speaker 1So it doesn't hold on like a narcotic or Correct.
Speaker 3Correct.
Speaker 1And like.
Speaker 3Usually, they use Versed, which is a benzodiazep, and that's what causes you to be tired.
Speaker 1Gotcha.
Speaker 2I've had some of my best runs within the last month after ketamine treatment. I don't like step out the door and just take off running. There's usually an hour or two that goes by, but running is like kind of a form of meditation to me and so it's just like almost a continuation of the treatment. Treatment and and there is, I mean it is a dissociative anesthetic and so there is like oh, I believe it causes a lower, like less has an effect on inflammation in the body. Is that right, correct?
Speaker 1in a good or bad way it decreases oh praise god.
Speaker 2That's what I need to and uh, and so I just feel like in a way I can run a little bit longer and like a little bit easier.
Speaker 3And that's another thing too your depression is kind of factored in with pain as well for the patients that have chronic pain. So ketamine is actually also used for chronic pain and there is a different dosing for that. So we can actually treat patients with just chronic pain on a lower dose, and it will help their depression in the long run too. So all depending on your dosing. We're either treating depression or pain, but that depression level is still treating the pain. I actually had a patient that was coming in for IV ketamine just for pain control after a hip replacement, so it was actually replacing the narcotics that they sent her home with.
Speaker 1Wow, that's see, that's, that's, that's double bonus right there, because I have been addicted to narcotics. That's part of my story is addiction to hydrocodone pills, and I'm not the only one. It's pretty common in the first responder world throughout the country.
Speaker 2I've had those issues too, as you know, dan, and I can tell you that I don't. I don't really know why the ketamine does not feel to me like it has an addictive quality, even as a guy who can get addicted to most anything um I just have never. It just has never felt that way to me.
Speaker 3I can't really say why I have had a lot of patients ask about addiction for the medication and it's usually the feeling that they have while they're on. It is what they get addicted to. It's not necessarily an addiction, they just like the way their mind rests. So the important thing is, throughout treatment, getting to that state without the medication in between your treatment days. So whether you go running or you go lift or go color or watch a movie, getting to those spots without that medication.
Speaker 1So when people take the medicine, you walk in and it's a nose spray, right Nose spray. More than one, or something right, or a couple, yep.
Speaker 3Two at one time and then you wait five minutes, do another two sprays and then, once they go up to the higher dose, which is usually after the first time, then we do a third time at 15 minutes.
Speaker 1Okay, so then do you just sit them in a room, and they sit there.
How Ketamine Works in the Brain
Speaker 3Yep, they sit in the room by themselves. I've had patients have eye massage masks to cover their eyes. Some patients don't like their eyes covered. I always suggest for them to bring their own headphones so then that way they can listen to their own meditation music to kind of get rid of all the other noise that might be happening in the office. But usually it's pretty quiet and they basically just sit there. I check their vitals when they first get there and then I check it at 40 minutes, um, and that 40 minutes is usually that peak feeling, and so when I go and check on them they are feeling good, um, and then then it's slow, they start to come down from the sensation or the side effects of the ketamine and then after two hours, like jake said, he's ready to up and go and walk out of there without any problems dan, my experience the first couple times I went in there like amanda said, especially the first time I did I had no idea what was going to happen and when I left I was kind of like what?
Speaker 2I feel better, but what was that? Like, it just kind of was like a hurricane that came and came and went pretty quick. But once I got to know, you know like what the purpose of it was and I did some reading and you know some, got on reddit and got some. You know, like what the purpose of it was and I did some reading and you know some, got on Reddit and got some. You know other people's experiences.
Speaker 2I started using an eye mask and headphones and, especially for those of us with ADHD, I felt that without the, without the eye mask and without some music I was just getting, I was getting distracted by everything. Even even even under this you know, somewhat sedated state or relaxed state, I just was, I was going and I was just thinking about anything and everything and it was just kind of useless. But if I can block off my, my eyes and my and just you know, pick the right kind of music. There are some Spotify playlists that are actually called like best ketamine playlist or like ketamine treatment or like deep recovery for ketamine, and I've tried a couple of those and that's when I really can just let, like she said, I can kind of let. It's almost like EMDR, you kind of just want to let whatever comes up, come up.
Speaker 3And that's when I've got the most benefit out of it. And with those videos and that music that you've used during treatment, if you ever have a situation where you're not in ketamine treatment and it is like a stressful trigger, I always suggest using those videos, listening to them again without that ketamine, so then that kind of brings you down to the level of you know during your treatment session. So it's kind of also a good outlet too in the event that you can't get to a you know a ketamine treatment if you're having you know either can't get to a, you know, a ketamine treatment.
Speaker 2If you're having, you know either nightmares, night terrors uh, ptsd episode that I would assume. That's because you're probably forming a some sort of pathway interesting.
Speaker 3I didn't know that. I yeah, that's beneficial to me potentially.
Speaker 1Yep, so that because it's it's there's actual science going on inside the brain. When you take the medicine right like it's, it's it's helping, helping us go back to the pathways, cause, if I remember right from the doctor I heard over in Chicago Um, yeah, I don't know. Just explain that to me more, because doesn't it change, like the neural pathways where you can like change your thought processes and stuff?
Speaker 3So and Jake's probably has heard this field before Um, so I basically describe it as a blanket of snow on your memory. So you have your memories and then you have a blanket of snow that goes down. It doesn't erase your memories, they're still there, but you're responsible for making new tracks of your memories going forward. So they'll come up during the treatment session with the ketamine and then you make those new positive, feeling positive tracks and some things may come up that you didn't realize bothered you and you process it in a different way and then therefore have a better outlook of something else. And I will say ketamine is nice as far as you don't have to talk to people about things.
Speaker 3I feel like in the first responder world. We, like you said before, you know we are. We have to be those pillars, we have to be strong for everybody else. Sometimes it's hard to express that information. So this ketamine is used to help process the stuff that bothers you without verbalizing it. Yes, verbalizing it helps, but it may help in the future with a therapist at a different time or a friend or a family member, but it makes it less traumatic bringing up that topic later.
Speaker 1So what if you're like me and you just my brain a lot of times will default negative everything. So what if you go in there, you take your ketamine treatment and you're remembering your memories but you're not making new positive pathways. You're living them, reliving the trauma of it or the stress and the anxiety like will that come back or does this kind of depress that?
Speaker 3It helps depress that there has been a couple of patients in which they have become more anxious because of the treatment sessions. So ketamine works on depression, um. So usually you have your anxiety and your depression and they're like leveling each other out. This takes care of the depression. So you feel less depressed. If anything, you feel a little bit more anxious. So it's more managing that anxiousness because it doesn't have that depression to counteract it.
Speaker 3We do have a couple of different modalities as far as um. Jake hasn't tried this one yet, but it's called alpha stem. It's basically like a neurotransmitter, like a TENS unit on your ears that I've used with patients that are extremely anxious, but it helps ground them if they do have a more anxiety provoking session. But usually with those if I have patients that need that are having a bad session, which is very, very rare I will sit in there and we will walk through things. So it's not like they're in there by themselves, it's just they got to. Let me know if that does come about, cause if not, I just kind of let them be, or we kind of change the modality or get them up, walk them to the bathroom, come back, reset and restart, do you?
Speaker 1give them something to think about, or just here here. Here you go, relax and we'll check on you a little bit, and you just know that their brain will naturally start to feel like, think positive and work its way through the thoughts.
Speaker 3Correct and if you try and go one direction versus the other and fight it. Sometimes that can cause some frustration with the treatment session. So a lot of times I say, okay, focus, brain brings about um, versus tracking it one direction.
Speaker 1Cool, Go ahead Jake.
Speaker 2I, when I at the time that I started ketamine treatment, I was severely depressed to a level that I didn't I hadn't even shared with anybody. Uh, I was suicidal almost all the time and I didn't see a purpose to doing anything.
Speaker 1And.
Speaker 2I had also. I mean I should mention that I was also doing therapy. I was also seeing another provider in the same office for regular medication management. I had done EMDR, I had done somatic processing with the trauma coach. I had, I mean I had I had done a lot of other things. So it's hard to say for sure it was only ketamine. But what I can tell you is that before ketamine I had a really hard time getting rid of that depression. And even now I mean I'm at a point now where my next appointment isn't until I'm stretching them out every two weeks and and I just I haven't had, I haven't had one of those thoughts and I don't know how long. And it's it's like almost.
Speaker 2I almost don't even believe it myself because it just kind of went away, and it's not that I intentionally did anything other than go to the clinic and do the treatments.
Speaker 1Wow, that's a testimony right there.
Speaker 1If you guys listen and seriously, I mean I don't need to be the voice of it. I mean, jake just told you. I mean it may not work for you, but he's telling you what worked for him. I mean, no matter what you say about Spravato or ketamine, it doesn't change his experience. It's helped him and I think that's pretty cool.
Jake's Personal Experience
Speaker 1And I think as first responders, we can sometimes be closed off to help like this. And maybe it's upsetting some people that I'm even talking about it on the podcast, but I I seen that there's nothing wrong with this. It's just like any other medicine. It's not. I heard somebody say it. They might've been at that conference Like, oh, so it's just a legal way for you guys to sit around and be high, and it's like no, I think there's more to that. It's not a bunch of people just sitting around watching and dazed and confused, taking ketamine. Um, because this is this is help. That's out there and try it. It may work for you. Um, I cannot honestly like I can. I wish your clinic was open so I could get started. I want to get started, um, but I'll be patient.
Speaker 3I know there's some other clinics out there that do that, which is awesome, um and one thing too, with um, our clinic, what I'm really going to focus on as well. The biggest thing is finding a ride. The logistics of it is probably the hardest part. The easiest part is coming to the appointment and sitting and having a break. So we are actually going to work with our patients as far as transportation goes If they don't have a ride, working with them and pairing up with Lyft or Uber or having our own driver. So that will also be a benefit to our patients.
Speaker 1Smart, yeah, because, yeah, some, some people may have the time to do it, but they may not have a buddy or a spouse that's able to come and sit for an hour or two.
Speaker 3Yep, yep, and our hours. Initially before it was eight to five, but my plan is to allow for some nighttime hours just for people who work an eight to five job, and then a potentially a Saturday as well. Um, so we'll kind of see what the need is and work with our patients and make sure that they get the help that they need.
Speaker 1Okay, and so I got to ask questions, cause I just got another one. Why can't people, why isn't this legislated to, where people can use bravado at home in their bed? I mean, what is the concern for it to be medically supervised? Because for some people that's what they're thinking and honestly, it was one of my first thoughts, but then I know that there's a reason why there's medical supervision over this, so you want to kind of explain that a little bit.
Speaker 3So some of the adverse side effects it may cause an increase in blood pressure. So patients as they come in have to have at least a controlled blood pressure. Usually the first time it is a little elevated just because they're a little nervous with their first session. But the concern is the elevated blood pressure and I have had some patients that dissociate a little bit more than others, usually the older population. So we kind of start with the lower dose and monitor closer because it's just good to have a medical provider to redirect. There are some home ketamine treatment options available, but it's a sublingual tablet and you have to check in with a provider before and after the session. But again, my thing is if there's an adverse reaction, at least in the clinic somebody can see them, can manage them and help them walk them through things, cause there's some times that I couldn't even imagine if the patient side effect would have been would happen at home.
Speaker 1Right, and it's always so much better to do supervised care. I mean, I know there's other cares out there that you can do. You can get online and kind of do it backdoor wise, but it's very important to do it in a safe way with somebody who's medically trained.
Speaker 3Get away from your house and go to a place that's quiet and meant for relaxation and quiet, Jake, when you were in there.
Speaker 1Jake, when you were in there you know PTSD, it's what a lot of us deal with Did you? When you're sitting in there, do you worry at all, Like you know somebody coming in? You know what I mean. Like we don't put our backs to the doors in restaurants, right? So when you're in there, do you feel safe? Right, you've told me you feel safe. Like you don't feel like you can put your, like you feel like you can put your guard down when you're in their office You're not worried about. You know you're able to relax without worrying about somebody coming in and attacking you, or do you know what I'm saying? You know how our brain messes with us.
Speaker 2Yeah, initially that was a big concern of mine and it was a reason that I talked myself out of doing ketamine therapy several different times. I knew that it would likely put me in a state of what I just thought of as vulnerability. Not that I thought there's, you know. You know madmen running around a clinic all the time. But I, just like you're saying, you get really paranoid as a first responder, especially when you develop mental health conditions. And so Amanda was the only person that I had really ever known of or met that I was willing to do it with, because I had a personal connection and I knew she understood first responders in a different way. And so, yeah, getting started with her was, for me, probably the only way I was gonna do it.
Speaker 2I can say, looking back, that I was just being a little too extra about that, because now, like Amanda said, she's parted ways with the clinic and I still receive treatments from that clinic currently, and at this point I'm used to it and it doesn't matter to me what's going on around me or who's involved. Uh, I know, I just know. I know how it goes.
Speaker 1So, um, overall I would say, yeah, you definitely want to establish a some level of trust and understanding with whoever your provider is going in, but it just gets easier over time once you know what what's going to happen so I know some people that's had, that's been in the military, that when they get surgeries done they have to let the military know they bring somebody in to be in the surgical room during it to make sure that the person doesn't say anything. That's protected government stuff, because you hear people when they go into surgery or whatever. All of a sudden they start loopy and they're talking about things they shouldn't be talking about or whatever. All of a sudden they start loopy and they're talking about things they shouldn't be talking about. When somebody comes in and they're on a ketamine treatment, is it all of a sudden you're just spewing out everything and acting a fool, or you have full control over your body, your voice, what you say. It's not like you're drunk on vodka or anything like that. Right, you have control of your.
Speaker 3You have control. But I kind of relate it a little bit to drinking like you still know what you're saying, um, and you still have control of saying it. But it's not a you don't remember what you said type of thing, um, and honestly, people are so relaxed like they don't really care to say much to me. Usually I just check in and see how they're doing and if they're having any side effects. If not, just leave them be and check their vitals and leave them in the way.
Speaker 2The way I feel personally I don't know if this is everybody's experience is I uh?
Speaker 2I wouldn't say like I'm afraid to say something, but I I'm not afraid to say that I've smoked marijuana before and I've smoked and I've been too high, and if you can relate to that, you can get to a point where you're like afraid to say anything because you feel like you're going to sound stupid, and that's that's kind of how it is for me. I don't really want to talk to anybody because I feel like I'm going to sound weird or say something off the wall. Amanda maybe has heard me say something awful, I don't know, but it makes me not want to talk at all personally.
Insurance and Accessibility
Speaker 1So if you walk in and you're stressed out because you have all this stuff going on in your life and you've got to get your treatment, because you got this going on and your life's going, so you go in there, you get treatment and you sit down and you're thinking about this big thing at work, can you then switch that off and think about get down to the core issues that you're really dealing with? Kind of get. Sometimes I have trouble getting past that, that, that main level of distraction, to even calm my brain to where it's in a situation where it's I can have a safe place to encounter healing.
Speaker 3So it kind of gets that business out of your head and you're able to calm. Yes, so all those thoughts will slowly come down and you may even just start picking one way, start thinking about this one. Okay, you're going to do this later. I hope we want to make sure we do this so it puts into a filing cabinet, so you do one file at a time and able to process it, whether it's the stuff you got to do today, but usually it's not. Usually your mind takes you a completely different route and you're able to work on some things that you do need to work on.
Speaker 2Cool route, um and you're able to work on some things that you do need to work on. Cool, I going in, I've, I've gone in very relaxed and very worked up and there is a difference. Um, you get benefits both, both ways, uh for sure. Uh, and you come out of the treatment feeling much better, no matter what the times that I've had a half an hour or an hour beforehand to myself to to meditate, to get myself centered and grounded, I've gotten much more out of it. But, as we know, when we have PTSD and other mental health conditions like depression, anxiety, that's not always possible. So I have gone in there just on edge and it's still been, still been fun, it's still been very helpful. I just think if you can ground yourself, it's more beneficial.
Speaker 1Have you ever walked out with more anxiety be honest?
Speaker 2no, not even close just curious.
Speaker 1You know, I just it's nice to know that it'll it can call me like that, because sometimes that's where most of us have trouble is getting that that, that buzzing noise of busyness and craziness, to calm down you, you really got to focus or not focus you should.
Speaker 2You should be careful about who picks you up. I'll say that and what. What condition they are in Cause I have had some times where I've been picked up and I unpack that. What's that?
Speaker 1Unpack that. What do you? What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2So I've had. I've had times where I come out of there just feeling really good and like introspective and just ready to kind of like build on that through the rest of the day or the afternoon. And if I've been picked up by someone who is very anxious or just, you know, just came from an overstimulating environment, that energy can kind of those energies can clash a little bit. And again, it's not that it doesn't make it, it doesn't ruin it, but if you can pick up someone who understands, or again can be picked up by someone who understands what you just did and will support you correctly, that's better, that's ideal.
Speaker 1No, that's good to know. That's the type of information we want to be able to share, is what's the smoothest route for first responders to go through, and that's good. So maybe not get picked up by the wife who is ready to beat you to death because of all the you know. Maybe get picked up by somebody who doesn't want to wants to add peace to your life. At the moment I don't know what you're talking about, Dan.
Speaker 3I was talking about you I will say to you, if some people a little bit more anxious, coming in for a couple other visits or just want somebody to sit with them, they can't have family members sit with them. I do. We do allow that you can have. If you want to do a treatment session with your spouse, as long as they've gone through the same clearance always an option which, which I think that's beneficial as well.
Speaker 1Wow.
Speaker 3So just allowing them to process things together to understand the treatment plan as well.
Speaker 1That is huge. You can have people come in and sit with you. That's awesome. So if you do have that fear of I don't want to go in there and be vulnerable and all that stuff, okay, bring somebody with you. Yep, somebody who. Yep, somebody calm, bring somebody with you. That's one of the Yep or your trauma coach. There you go.
Speaker 3Been through it before. Yeah.
Speaker 1And again, a lot of this podcast is for awareness. If you guys don't, if you're afraid to go to the amanda's clinic by yourself, reach out to jake or I will go with you. I'm gonna go absolutely. You don't have to do this alone. Go ahead, jake. What?
Speaker 2were you gonna say? I said absolutely I'd be, you know, more than willing to help. However I can with that, I I do. You know we talked before we started recording about I have plans to put together specific programs for before and after, what to expect and then how to integrate it afterwards and some of my own takeaways, that type of thing. But yeah, absolutely I would. I would, definitely I'd be willing to. You know, when it comes to a first responder, especially a first responder in crisis, just yeah, call, we can talk about it, we can talk all the way through it beforehand.
Speaker 1Do you journal?
Speaker 2When I can sit still long enough.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm just curious. It's very valuable. I've just kind of been one of those people too that I have trouble with it. I know now they have these what do they call them, these journals where you just do like one line a day for the same day every year. It's like a five-year journal or something like that.
Speaker 1But it's very valuable and I heard you say that, amanda, about journaling because when you start the healing process of healing from PTSD and depression and that kind of stuff, as you start to heal, you almost kind of forget where you were. So to be able to journal your journey of healing, even if it's just once a week even, but even, you know, once a day, to be able to journal your thoughts and feelings for a little while as you're going through your healing, you will then be able to go back and look and see where you were and all the progress that you actually made. On the days where you are sad and depressed and don't want to get out of bed because you feel like you've made no progress, out of bed, because you feel like you've made no progress, these journals can go back and help you realize the struggles you've gone through, the strength you've you've used to overcome those. The growth you've made, cause we want to be focused on that. When we're down on our down in our dumps or having an episode is we want to focus on the positive stuff we've been doing, cause as soon as we get out of that bad episode, it's time to get right back on the horse and we start getting right back into healing and we give ourself grace and healing and we move forward.
Speaker 1Um, I would really advise you guys that are listening to check this out. I'm going to check it out. I'm going to, I'm going to do a podcast on it when I get done, when I do some treatments, I want to air it. I want to talk to you guys about it. My own experience and Amanda. So October 1st is we're hoping for somewhere around there for an opening date and that's not poured in concrete yet. But if somebody wants to get started now, is there anything they can do to reach out to you or do we just kind of need to hold off for right now?
Speaker 3They can feel free to call me. Call me, text me, message me.
Speaker 1What do you, what do you prefer?
Speaker 3Uh, probably text. So then that way if I'm in the middle of something, I can at least um take some time and respond or call them when I have a moment. I am a mom of two boys and busy trying to get um all my charting and all my meetings done, uh, so I can make sure I take some time for people and I can do a telehealth visits to beforehand, just even to consult and discuss the treatment plan, before we actually have the doors.
Speaker 1And what's that number?
Speaker 3Yep 515-822-6384.
Speaker 1Okay, so that's 515-822-6384. Just one more time 515-822-6384.
Speaker 3That's for revitalize, For IV hydration, IV ketamine or intranasal ketamine or just mental health evaluation. Talking resources from a first responder.
Speaker 1What was the first thing you said in that list?
Speaker 3IV hydration.
Speaker 1Okay. So a lot of times they're dealing with first responders who are trying to get better, trying to get sober right, and they go through that detox phase where it's very painful and ugly and it's awful. Yes, um, can that help with that? The rehydration deal yes yep, that's great, because I've been through that when you're detoxing. It's no fun and a lot of it is fluid issues.
Speaker 1Yeah, yep okay so then you have that, the ketamine treatment treatment Awesome. So they don't have so to go back, they don't? It doesn't have to be their doctor that refers them, but it can be. But if not, they can go directly to you and they can have a consult. Consult with you. They don't have to go through their main provider.
Speaker 3And. But it can speed up the process if their mental health provider basically sends over their last office note. Uh, just to get things going for insurance quicker.
Speaker 1Okay, makes sense. And then so insurance. You said insurance covers it, but how much do they cover? And I know every insurance is different, but Blue Cross, Blue Shield is a big one around here and I know they have multiple different plans but what generally is the out-of-price cost for somebody that comes to the clinic if their insurance?
Speaker 3So the way there's a couple different ways to do it. So right now I'm only charging an office visit. So whatever a normal office visit would be, as you go to a mental health provider or a doctor's office and then the pharmacy contacts them directly for the drug cost.
Speaker 1OK, so that goes through the pharmacy, then Gotcha.
Final Thoughts and Contact Information
Speaker 3Correct. So all depending on if you have a tier, a copay for insurance for meds or if you have a high deductible. Essentially you have to do out of pocket high deductible until your deductible is met. I pay.
Speaker 2I don't know how much is ordered every time you can speak to this, amanda, but it's when it's the drug is ordered. I pay $18.
Speaker 1And then each time I go to the office it's a $10 copay. Wow, that Okay. Okay, I was thinking like a hundred or 200.
Speaker 2And I don't have. I have, I have health partners through unity point, which is notoriously not great, so I would imagine there's better plans.
Speaker 3Yeah, and initially it may seem like a lot of money when they first get contacted by the pharmacy. However, there's multiple copay cards, there's different things that they can get money back. So there's definitely as far as the provider side of things that they work with the patients to make sure it's affordable. And then there's also one that somebody doesn't make enough money, can't pay for it. It's like a grant, essentially, and they automatically send the medication at no cost to the patient.
Speaker 1Awesome, yeah, so that's great to know. I never would have known. So it actually goes through your drug coverage plan for that side of it and then your side of it, the doctor's side, comes out of the okay.
Speaker 3And then, as far as insurances go, I'll just kind of cover those real quick. So I take Blue Cross, blue Shield, working on United Healthcare. Health Partners is another one. We'll be taking Medicare as well, and then cash price for the IV ketamine. If I don't take any of the insurances, or if it is an insurance that we can work through and work on credentialing all the based off of the patient, an insurance that we can work through and work on credentialing all based off of the patient's need, we can work on that.
Speaker 1Okay and I get asked this all the time Some of our first responders, especially ones that are retired or left the job early do you guys take state insurance? I assume not.
Speaker 3Not Medicaid right now, but we do take Medicare.
Speaker 1Okay, you do take Medicare. Good to know, that's awesome.
Speaker 3I will say, though, medicare usually it's very expensive because the co-pay cards do not qualify, so a lot of times with them it's cheaper if you just do the.
Speaker 1IV. Yeah, okay, well cool, our time's kind of wrapping up here, but thank you so much. That was a wealth of information. Again, we're going to have you on again, if you will allow us to bring you back on um, and when you get your clinic open, I want to be one of your first patients, so maybe you and I should get started on the, the uh, the pre-stuff, the pre-paperwork and all that kind of stuff to get going um.
Speaker 1And I recommend you guys, if, if you think this might be a good treatment, um, pray about it, talk to your spouse about it, but there's multiple. I know there's treatment, pray about it, talk to your spouse about it, but there's multiple. I know there's multiple different treatments out there to help first responders. This is another one and this is one that I've heard great things about. It's one that I've heard helped change lives. I mean, jake said that earlier is one of the things that helped him the most.
Speaker 2Yeah, I was just going to say look me up on social media Facebook, instagram. Jake Ville on Facebook. At Jake Ville on Instagram. Send me a message if you want to talk about it, totally confidential, I'll tell you everything that you want to know based on my own experience. I'm not not Amanda, but if you're not ready to, you know, actually call the clinic. You just want to talk to a former cop who's done it? Just feel free to look me up on social media.
Speaker 1Cool. Well, thank you guys. That was fun. I learned a lot and I'm really excited.
Speaker 1Man, I wish your clinic was open today, but I'm excited you're I'm glad that you are are taking that leap of faith, because I think it'll be very fruitful, not just for you, but very fruitful for all of your patients and the healing they can get. And thank you for doing that, and I know it that, and I know it won't be. You know it won't be a perfect ride as you go through this from this day on, but there's going to be ups and downs and I just thank you for be willing to step in and take that battle for us. I think it's cool. I really think that, especially the more we talk about it, the more first responders will reach out and add this to their, to their, to their treatment plan. So thank you, amanda Again. Her number is 515-822-6384. Get ahold of her. Also, you can reach out to us at our podcast at 10-42projectorg. Jake and Amanda, thank you so much you guys have been a blessing and see you next week.
Speaker 2Thanks Dan.
Speaker 1Yep. And that wraps up another episode from the 10 42 project shared voices podcast. Thank you for tuning in and just a reminder we are a five oh one, C, three. If you guys can support us, you can go to our website. Or if you know an organization or a company or your church may want to get involved in supporting 1042 Project's mission of equipping, restoring, repurposing our first responders, please reach out to us at 10-42projectorg. There is a giving page on there. We need your help. We need your support. If you can't give financially, please be willing to share the word of our podcast, of our organization and the work that God's doing. Thank you and have a blessed week.