How Natural Burial is Changing End-of-Life Planning with Ed Bixby

Ed Bixby shares his journey from real estate developer to national leader in the green burial movement. After inheriting Steelmantown Cemetery, a family burial ground in New Jersey dating back to the 1700s, Ed shifted his focus toward more natural and sustainable ways of honoring death. His love for the land, history, and simple living helped shape a new approach to dying, one that respects nature, supports families, and celebrates each person’s legacy.

In this episode, Ed explains how natural burial aligns with conscious living and deep healing. He contrasts traditional burial practices with green alternatives, highlighting how natural cemeteries require fewer resources and allow the environment to thrive. He also shares how COVID-19 led more people to ask deeper questions about end-of-life choices. 

Now, many are rethinking cremation and traditional funerals in favor of legacy trees, simple burials, and authentic connection to nature. Ed’s story offers hope and practical insight for a more grounded, compassionate future of death care.

globalgreenburialalliance.net

destinationdestinymemorials.com 

Transcript

Ed: [00:00:00] You feel relaxed. It brings you back to a primordial place as human beings where you say to yourself, this is great. I love it. I could just sit out here by myself and listen to the wind blow and the birds sing, and who wouldn't want up having a final resting place in a place that celebrates life like that?

Jill: Welcome back to seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end of life coach. Here on my show, I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects.

I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true. In this episode, Ed Bixby shares how he went from real estate developer to a leading voice in the green burial movement. After inheriting his family's historic cemetery in New Jersey, ed felt called to create more natural, meaningful ways to honor death.

He talks about how green burials supports [00:01:00] healing, conserves the environment, and connects people more deeply to the land and each other. It explains the differences between traditional and natural burial practices and how the new movement and end of life has inspired many to rethink, cremation, embalming, and expensive funerals.

Listeners will hear how planting legacy trees, choosing simple shrouds and returning to the earth can offer families. Peace and purpose. This conversation is full of practical ideas and heartfelt reflections on how we can care for both the dying and the planet. Thank you for joining us for this conversation.

Welcome, Ed, to the podcast. I've been looking forward to this conversation because I've been following you and what you do, and I've been to at least one of the cemeteries that you run as a green cemetery. This is really exciting for me. Thank you so much for spending your Sunday morning with me.

Ed: Absolutely. It's my pleasure. Thank you, Jill. Thank you for the kind words. 

Jill: Can you just tell me a little bit about who you are, even outside of the green burial movement? [00:02:00] Are you originally from New Jersey? How'd you end up in New Jersey? Anything like that you wanna share? 

Ed: I'm originally from Southern New Jersey, outside of Atlantic City, Ocean City area.

Grew up here, had my family with my children here, not until the last probably 10 years that I start to expand out. Go to different states, meaning like creating spaces there. But yes, I'm born and raised here in Southern New Jersey, 

Jill: just like me. I think we leave sometimes, but then we always end up coming back, which is okay.

Yeah. How did you end up in the green burial movement? Did you have a career outside of the funeral industry before this? How did you end up where you're at now? 

Ed: Sure. So I've always been an entrepreneur. I moved outta my own when I was a junior in high school, 17 years old. Started a landscape business and that evolved into other businesses and eventually into development.

First I was flipping houses and then we started building them. Became a real estate broker, so I had a very successful career [00:03:00] in real estate developing homes. Retired from that about five years ago to focus solely on the cemeteries. I've always had an interest in history. A landscape background as well.

So I've always been really cognizant when I developed a property not to clear cut all the trees, and so I think a lot of the things that I had done previously helped me in this cemetery movement that we're in. 

Jill: Oh, that's beautiful. And I know there's that. Idea in our country of like clearing everything and just like green lawn and I don't really like that.

Like my lawn, I kill off as much of it as I can. I try to put in wildflower gardens. I wanna bring it more back to whatever it used to be. But that's definitely not the norm in our country. Even a lot of cemeteries, when you see them, they're so manicured. Everything's mowed real low to the ground, and I know at least Steelman Town, which I have been to, that's not really [00:04:00] the case.

It's such a beautiful place to wander through and walk around and see the way that nature has. Not necessarily taken over, but there's a balance between human interaction and nature, which I really love about it. How long have you had Steelman Town? How long has that cemetery been there? 

Ed: Steelman town's very ancient by America's standards.

My family came here in 1680 and developed that as a family burial ground in 1700. So it's been around for a very long time. I think ultimately we should allow nature to be what it is to actually enjoy it. The manicured lawns, the watering, the things that are all artificial really don't make a lot of sense.

When you create a space like Steeltown, which I didn't create, I just created pathways for human beings to enjoy. These places can take care of themselves, and I think that's critically important because unfortunately, in the world we live in. We find ourselves where we cannot [00:05:00] manage things because there's not enough income to manage it.

And I think if you allow something to be, it can take care of itself in many ways. 

Jill: I like that way of looking at it, that if you allow it to be just kind of what it is, it's that balance of like, you can still take care of it, but it's a lot less maintenance if you're just allowing things to be what they wanna be.

Ed: And the one thing I should say too is that everyone wants to seek perfection. You know, you can't live in a cookie cutter world. Ultimately I see beauty in imperfection. What it is, is it's one of a kind. It's unique, so you should embrace that and realize that you have something special because no one else has anything quite like it.

And I mean that for everything in life. I think it helps people cope better because we as human beings are always striving for more. When we could be far and less stressed by just accepting things for the way they are. 

Jill: Yeah, I agree with that completely. There's no perfection anyway, and all that does is stress us out and makes us anxious.

It's hard because we are [00:06:00] taught that things not being perfect, that they're not as valuable, even though there really is no perfect. There's a lot of unlearning and relearning in our. Time period right now at least. So you have Steelman Town in South Jersey. What other cemeteries do you run that are green burial cemeteries around the country?

Ed: So we have 15 different properties. Some are natural burial preserves like Steelman Town, meaning there's a large wooded area that solely serves natural burial. And then I have hybrid models, which are traditional cemeteries that we've created spaces within. For the natural burial experience. We also allow it throughout the cemetery as well.

The hybrid model is the low hanging fruits, and that can inspire others to create spaces like that because every town, every community has this steelman town lying and wait. We just have to inspire the people to create those spaces. [00:07:00] And with the hybrid model, every community has a cemetery, so that's the way to open the door.

Jill: So you still allow people to do traditional burials in the hybrids, but a place like Steelman Town, there's no traditional burials anymore. It's only the green burial. Is that correct? 

Ed: Yes, that's correct. In a natural burial preserved setting would be solely natural burial. We de actually deed restricted, so we don't allow a concrete vaults, upright monuments or in bomb bodies.

But in a hybrid setting, we will, we will reserve a section solely for natural burial, you know, so that it follows the same rules and regulations. But then we allow natural burial throughout the entire cemetery. So if you wanted a natural burial next to a traditional burial, we would allow that because who are we to deny anyone the right to be next to a loved one?

Because we want them to be in a concrete box that really doesn't feel right as a human being. And I think you have to inspire people to understand why this is so important. Because if you're not allowing your families to do so, they're going elsewhere and then [00:08:00] you're turning away business. So that really doesn't make a lot of sense.

Jill: Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. 'cause I feel like some of the green burial cemeteries that I've come across that seem to be hybrid, it's like there's the section and then you have to be in that section if you want green burials for yours, as long as it's not putting a traditional burial in a green spot, you could do a green burial next to a traditional burial.

Ed: That's correct. And I think the hesitation within the industry. That they feel as if they're losing services. For instance, if they don't require a vault, then they'd lose the sale of the vault. But then also in their minds, they feel like the natural burial will create a maintenance problem in the future.

So what I've taught Cemeterians is listen, now what you can do to recover some of the lost revenue is leave all the earth where it should be. Right over the grave Site itself, allow nature and time to pull it back in. Then if it's necessary, you can [00:09:00] work in a couple regrading fees. In your traditional sections, you say there will be two regrading fees.

That way you're not losing quite as much revenue. If you're really concerned with eventually having it matched the rest of the cemetery, let's say, in a lawn type of setting, you can achieve that. So I think once they hear that and they realize, oh, wait a minute, that makes a lot of sense. People seem to be afraid of things they don't.

Really understand. 

Jill: People don't like change. They don't like things that they don't understand, and they definitely don't like losing money. So all those things seem to kind of be incorporated. Steelman towns the main one that I, it's the first green burial I'd ever been to. So for me, that was my first experience.

Part of what I loved about it was that it didn't look like a traditional cemetery. You know, like you walk through the woods and there was like these paths that were covered in moss that my husband was like. Did they plant that? How was it so perfect? I was like, I don't think you plant moss. Moss is one of those things that does not cooperate with humans.

It does [00:10:00] what it wants, where it wants. It really was magical walking through the woods and looking at all the little tiny markers. So part of what I love about it is that it's more natural and it feels like you're just walking down a trail. But then you're getting to read people's little markers and just see that there is a body there.

I mean, not that there's a person there, but there is a body there and I love that. But. I do like the idea of having it be so that if you know, like my grandmother, she's buried in a traditional grave. Her parents are right next to her. My mother doesn't wanna get buried, but if she wanted to, it would be nice to have an option to say she wants a green burial, but she also still wants to be next to her mom and her grandparents.

Having that option is really nice. I like that. 

Ed: No, it is. And your description of Steelman Town, the beauty of Steelman Town is that it was. When I created steel in town, meaning when I took it over and put in the walking paths, [00:11:00] it wasn't because I initially was thinking of natural burial. What I was looking at was bringing people to a historical site that they otherwise didn't know existed, meaning the original burial ground.

These are the forefathers of the area that we live in, and there's a lot of history there, but also creating this recreational component, a place where people could go and enjoy nature in its finest form. The simplicity of going back to the Earth as we've come and being part of an ecosystem. At the end of the day, no matter how much technology has affected our lives, it's in our DNA to be in nature.

People don't know it and don't accept it because they've never been exposed to it. You could take anyone who says they don't like the outdoors and give them those types of experiences, and it changes their mindset, you know, it really makes them. Almost comfortable. I mean, you feel relaxed. It brings you back to a primordial place as human beings, where you say to yourself, this is great.

I love it. I could just sit out here by [00:12:00] myself and listen to the wind blow and the birds sing, and who wouldn't wanna be buried? Or, you know, having a final resting place in a place that celebrates life like that. That's where the concept really comes together. You are right as far as traditional is concerned.

I think that's vitally important because people do want to be with their loved ones as well. I've had. Older generations who said, I lost a child when they were young, and it's really important. So they can still have that same feeling, you know, to know that they don't have to choose an option. They didn't want, let's say for instance, cremation.

Maybe they only chose cremation because they didn't want to be embalmed or be in that concrete box and say to themselves, wow, I can go back to nature as I came and be next to my loved one. 

Jill: Yeah. And I love the idea of. Returning back to nature. I had heard once on a podcast that Shaman was talking about how.

They believe some of the problems that are happening right now with the environment is partially because humans, we take so much, but we're not [00:13:00] returning our bodies back to the earth because we're being buried in vaults or cremated. And even if you put the ashes, there's really nothing nutritive left.

And so their idea was that we really need to start returning bodies to the earth in order for us to give back. I never forgot that. I thought that was so interesting. And so when I started really in probably about 2019. Looking into moving more into this kind of work, into this space. And I started learning more about green burials.

I was like, oh, that's it. That's exactly what they're doing. And I think it's really a beautiful concept and it's still pretty new to a lot of people. But when the time that you've been doing it, how much have you seen it change? Have you seen there be more people asking for it, more cemeteries, interested in putting it in?

What's the change been like for you over the years? 

Ed: Well, that's, you know, I have been doing it for an awful long time. Now, when it comes to the movement itself, natural burials been practiced since the dawn of time and [00:14:00] wasn't even being practiced during the last 150 years. When we look at conventional burial, they called it simple burial.

You know, unfortunately, I hate to use this term, but people of lesser means people who couldn't afford certain things, they would receive a green burial because they could afford no more. Most cemeteries have these simple burial areas, but they don't. They, they put them in less desirable spot, you know, because they're not producing a lot of income.

What's changed drastically? To be honest with, when I started in 2007, what I was getting were people who were highly educated. They were. Seeking out these alternative options. So when I would speak to them, they would be biologists and have a lot of experience in the environmental field as time go on and as I was, because I had, we have the fortunate, we're, we're located within Philadelphia, New York, Baltimore, dc you know, near the Jersey shore.

I started to get a lot of interest from regular consumers. Who started to say, you know, I, I don't really know what you do. I, I, [00:15:00] I'm not an environmentalist, but I believe in recycling and things like that. Mm-hmm. And I just don't wanna be embalmed and, you know, and I don't want to be in a, in a concrete vault.

So in 2007, the initial customer was coming from most of my business coming outta New York City, believe it or not. And then as it started to transform, it started to trickle down into New Jersey and it started to become more everyday people. By around 2015, there was a good percentage of people who were starting to read about it or learn about it, but we were just fairly crawling at that time.

What really changed the game and we, we were doing well, but the movement on a whole, like we were seeing higher numbers because we have lots of population here, but people who live in areas around the United States. They weren't seeing those kind of numbers because they don't have the same population.

But when we got to COVID as much of a tragedy as COVID was, and anyone here that lives in the Northeast can attest, it was pretty bad. We had a lot of people lost to COVID early on in the crisis. The [00:16:00] silver lining of what happened with COVID was, you know, now that we do live in this technological world, people at their fingertips.

Are able to ask questions and learn. No one wants to talk about death and dying, but in COVID it was right in your face and people started to go to the computer and say, if I die tomorrow, what do I want? And I can tell you, since we went through that terrible crisis, not only did we get up and start to walk, we started to run because people started to look and see and say, you know what?

This is what I've always wanted, and I didn't know it existed. So I'm glad to say that we went from a place that maybe in 2007. Maybe 0.1% of 1% of the population knew what we were doing to that. I would say that I can confidently sit here and say that I think that natural burial options and natural burial itself now is probably a good 10 to 15% of what's happening out there.

It grows exponentially every year because people who maybe don't read an [00:17:00] article or hear a podcast but attend a funeral, that's a natural burial. That's the true moment that they understand what we're doing, that's when the light bulb goes off. So in my opinion, in the next 15 years, I think we very well may come up to having the standards of, of the, of United Kingdom, you know, maybe 30, 40, 50% of what we're doing is natural.

And I think that's a great thing to say. It's curving the flame based cremation movement because the majority of my, my clients now are cremation converts. There are people who say, you know what? I only chose cremation because it was cheap and because I didn't want everything else, but now I want that.

Jill: Yeah. I would always have said that I wanted to be cremated before I found out about green burial because I didn't want to be put into a cemetery embalmed, so I was like, I guess cremation's my option. I feel like that's probably people very much like me. I'm very concerned about the environment. I've learned [00:18:00] more that flame based cremation is really not great for the environment.

It's not a environmental friendly option, but again, like, I don't know, to most people, we just don't really know that there's a lot of options, but I feel that way about almost everything and end of life care. People don't like to think about things that make us uncomfortable, so we just go through the motions, not realizing that we have other options.

Now I think people are starting to get more education with the green burial movement. Is that what you find? A lot of it is going into communities and educating people. Are you still the president of the Green Burial Association? What's your role in that now? 

Ed: Thanks for asking. I spent a very long time with the green burial counts.

I got involved way back in 2007 when I got certified as the fifth natural burial ground in the entire country, and I had asked back then, how can I help? I volunteered for a bit. Then in 2010 became a board member and then became the president for 10 years. What ended up happening was all the good work we had done at the [00:19:00] council had gotten to the point where we were in a place that when we started, we were trying to teach the industry.

We were trying to get them to understand the benefits of what we do and why we do it. And we were holding up higher standards by certification. By the time we got to, I don't know, maybe 20 22, 20 23, it was clearly evident in my mind that the conversation needed to change. We no longer needed to police this because everyone in the industry knew who we were and what we did.

Where I thought we were missing the boat was that we were not talking about not only natural burial, but greener options in general. Even if it's flame based, cremation, acclamation, natural organic reduction, really the results of the final disposition, that makes a very large difference. We were not allowing people to be part of a broader conversation.

We weren't connecting the dots. I had made some recommendations that maybe we had to get out of the certification business [00:20:00] and go more international and try to unite people and get them. Part of a larger conversation. Death doula is grief care workers, hobbyists. Anyone that is interested in what we do so we can continue to educate.

Their position was that natural burial in North America was the most important part of their mission, which I understand. Maybe it's time that I created an organization that does what I just mentioned to you. We created the Global Green Burial Alliance, an international organization that connects the dots.

Everything we do is social media. We do regular spotlights and forums to introduce people and create conversations. About two and a half years, we have a directory and all these things that we offer for free. This is a, a group of people who are passionate, who put their time and energy into helping others.

It's been a, a huge success. We have so many success stories, and that's what it's all about. Reaching people and letting them understand the benefits of what we do. Yesterday I had an open house [00:21:00] at Steeltown and we talked about greener options. I would like your listeners to hear what I have to say because I think it's really critically important.

Imagine this, no matter if you choose a cremation or a traditional burial, imagine if you planted a tree for every living human being that is alive today. Every time someone passes away. What would that environmental impact be on the world? What could its impact be on the entire life that was lived of that individual and the carbon footprint that they had created with the carbon offset of that tree?

Could it possibly erase the entire carbon footprint of the life that was lived? Most certainly it could. So I think what's critical is to respect people's belief systems. Just be transparent and educate with that. People change their minds. People make better decisions when they know they have options.

So that's kind of how I came to be in the movement and where I've ended up. Certainly very happy with connecting the dots. It's a lot of fun 

Jill: [00:22:00] getting together a group of people that we all have different specialties, but in the long run we are all focused on the same goal. We can really make bigger changes that way.

Because we can get creative and think outside the box. I really love that you did that. You're almost like leading the movement but in a different direction. I personally think, again, I'm a big person for change. I'm I'm, as much as I'm still human and I still fight change sometimes. I also do understand that change does need to happen in a lot of ways.

So I think that's cool. I love it. 

Ed: I appreciate that you can't live in a society of pay to play, get to have good karma. You have to give to get back, but it comes naturally. I get pleasure out of helping others create these spaces and opportunities. When I get presentations like yesterday at our open house, I made a point of saying to everyone that I would love to be their inspiration to go back to their local cemetery and say, why don't you we do this?

Why can't, whether [00:23:00] or not you come back and buy in town because it's a little different with the woods, or you go to your local cemetery where your loved ones are and create this space. I wanna help you do that. That's what's most important. We wanna feel good about our decisions and make a difference very rarely in anyone's life.

Do you have an opportunity to really make a difference? I think we all do, but we have to be empowered to do so. I appreciate your support. I'm glad you like what we've done. 

Jill: I really do. When you're thinking about. Long term, what are your long term goals? Do you wanna continue to open more cemeteries?

What's your ideal path? 

Ed: Well, ideal we were gonna have the we. I never really wanted to expand outside of Steeltown. What ended up happening was I was serving families small over the country, as far away as California. I had buried about a dozen people in New Jersey who had never stepped foot in this state that told me we were doing things very differently.

So being a leader in the movement, I decided [00:24:00] we need to go to some of these areas and teach others how to do what we do. So I said, let's go to California and see if we can't find a location and start to teach others how to do this. And that went from Half Moon Bay near San Francisco to where I said, now we have to create a space within a hybrid model in a city to let people know this can be done in a city space.

And we went to Portland. We kept expanding because we were trying to teach others, and then we went from one to five, and then maybe we'll stop at 10 and now we're going on 15. But my intent was not to expand this way. To be completely honest with you, we have a new project coming up in Philadelphia that I'm very excited about.

Where I'm at now is I'm very pleased with all the hard work we've done, and I think we've really inspired others. I don't know that it's necessarily important for me to continue to expand. Because I think people have learned from what we've done, and I think I'll leave it to my children because they are involved with my business to make the decisions on expansion after [00:25:00] we start this newer project.

Jill: I think that's great that your children are involved and will take over the work for you. At one point you were also doing other services in New Jersey where you would take a boat out and like, you know, draw ashes and you know, the ocean and whatever else. Are you still doing any of that or did you put that off to the side?

Ed: We still do that. Yeah. We still see Scatterings. We had worked a little bit with Memorial Reefs. I helped a friend Steve Berkoff come from Hawaii to New Jersey because Hawaii was not offering the opportunities. Like, you know, they, they, they have very deep water and, and. New Jersey, you know, we are really heavily involved with reef programs.

Steve created a successful reef program here and has expanded to other states that allow it. We do the Tree of Life stuff and they'll offer all the different green options. But you know, some of them are limited, obviously to times of the year. You know, like here in Southern New Jersey, it wouldn't be so pleasurable to go out into the North Atlantic in December.[00:26:00] 

For sea scatterings, we try to say between May 1st and you know, maybe October 1st because hurricane season's around the corner. But you know what's really interesting, Jill, is that I get phone calls on a daily basis and I get people who will say, what do you do with natural organic reduction? Or do you accept acclimated remains?

Or I'd like to have a sea scattering or a memorial wreath, and I'll explain everything to them about the processes and what the end results are. As the conversation continues, we talk about natural burial and nine times out of 10, by the time you get done talking, they come back and say, it sounds so simple with the natural burial itself.

And just explaining the transparency of the processes kind of leads them back to what we ultimately do. So it's kind of ironic in many ways and, and now we're accepting natural organic remains. Out in California, we received quite a bit of those. You would say to yourself, well, geez, I know people can take that home with them.

In our experience, what we have found is that [00:27:00] people did the process. That's what they wanted, but then the family members were left with the the organic material, and they would sit there and say it didn't feel right to use it in their home garden. Not because I'm not saying anything bad about it. In their mind they were saying, what happens when I sell my home?

They would call us and say, would you accept these? We would say, absolutely. Bring the organic material with you. We will excavate a site and use that organic material to plant a tree, a living memorial for your loved one. We do it all and try to find the best solution for everyone. 

Jill: Yeah. In New Jersey, we do not have what most people would think of as human composting, even though they'll say, oh, is it like my compost pile in my backyard?

I'm like, no, no, no, not that kind. But there is a lot leftover, right? Like it's not like we're talking a little tiny bag of compost. It's a significant amount that you get back as a family, right. 

Ed: Absolutely. It is the equivalent of a pickup truck load of, of what you would anticipate mulch would look like.

There are different processes now, so I can't speak [00:28:00] to all of them. Some people don't exactly explain their process for proprietary reasons, but from what I understand and people that I work with, it takes about eight 50 gallon drums of organic material to complete this process. So that's quite a bit of organic material like wood chips and things like that.

What ends up happening is when you introduce this organic material with a human body, it all becomes human remains. So that's the irony of the situation. Dependent on what state you live in, depends on what you can do with them. For instance, in Oregon, you can have a home funeral on your land and there's no real issue without, you know, you just get a permit to do it.

But in a state like New Jersey, you have to be a, a licensed cemetery. Because what they're looking at is perpetually what happens after you are gone. They wanna protect the, the rights of that in, you know, individual New York state has legalized it, but no one has started doing that organic reduction. And one of their requirements is that they have to go to a cemetery because they do consider them human remains and they must be in a [00:29:00] cemetery.

It's kind of an interesting conundrum, really. I mean, it's like. I guess after the process, what would make most practical sense would be the family would receive a small amount, which many places do, and the rest would, you know, go to a licensed facility. But then you would have to ask yourself if you're concerned with carbon footprint, what type of carbon footprint was created by the process itself.

It comes down to the individual and what they're looking to achieve by it. But a, a pickup truckload of organic materials quite a bit. So 

Jill: that is a lot. And four green burials. I know there's pretty strict rules as to how things can get done. They have to be done by hand, correct? Like the graves have to be dug by hand, or is that just an option?

That some green burials do? What's that look like? 

Ed: So for us, we do 'em by hand with the fact that bringing that type of equipment within these types of settings can be very damaging. The last thing you wanna do is damage the ecology of the property that you're in. Unfortunately, in [00:30:00] many instances around the country, not so much South Jersey, we have beautiful sandy soil.

It's very easy to dig here. You may encounter some very difficult digging situations, whether or not you're in California or Arizona or Texas. It really comes down to the geology. It's not forbidden. It really comes down to those factors. What can you achieve? There's plenty of natural burial grounds that use heavy equipment and maybe they don't want to, but it could be a complete impossibility for them to dig.

Otherwise, in Half Moon Bay, we have degraded granite in high acres in the Poconos. We have shale, we do on occasion, have to use a jackhammer. I mean, it's just, you know, we just can't avoid it. So I really think it just comes down to the circumstances. The geology. We try to avoid it, mainly because we're trying to protect the environment.

Jill: The body can't be embalmed, but it can be in a shroud. It could be in like a wood kind of casket, right? Is that even the right word? I don't know why my brain is like farting on that word, [00:31:00] but there's no embalming, but there can be a natural fiber that will break down. Is that the right way of thinking of it?

Ed: Yeah, absolutely. Anything biodegradable. Uh, anything free of toxic glues and metals and, you know, paints and varnishes. So simple, pine box, bamboo, leaf, wicker, rotan. There's so many things out there, seagrass. It could be your favorite Afghan or blanket. I had a customer say to me yesterday, well, what if, you know, you say favorite Afghan or blanket, but so many Afghans or blankets are polyester or they're rayon, and what we say to 'em is this.

I'm not gonna cut off a piece of your blanket and have it scientifically studied to see what's in it. What we as cemetery operators have to do is have faith that people who are choosing this option are going be, are gonna be, you know, honest with what they're using. There's so many organic materials that can be used and that are beautiful.

Absolutely beautiful. Believe it or not, and this is gonna sound totally insane. We've had people who have prearranged [00:32:00] with us that wanna go all natural. We don't have a problem with that. What we explain to them is that. That's the discussion you have with your family and friends. You know, if it's going to be an unattended event and you're comfortable with that, we'll do whatever you desire.

Just have them prepared for that decision. 

Jill: Actually, I hadn't thought about that. What if you get buried in clothing? A lot of clothing is not necessarily natural. There's zippers, there's, but that would be interesting. 

Ed: Yeah, absolutely. And I've had people ask me questions about like blue jeans. Oh, it has a zipper in a button.

And I will be honest with you. Things like that do ultimately come from the earth, but the processes are not quite as friendly as we would like them to be. But we're certainly not going to ask people to remove zippers and buttons. We do the best that we can do as human beings. Believe it or not, I have an associate of mine who went to a local facility in the last 15 years that actually had asked the family the day of at the grave site to remove the zipper and button outta the person's pants.[00:33:00] 

And that was a very bizarre request that was done, but left a not so happy memory. So we have to, I don't wanna say you have to give and take because certainly you want them to do what's best, but we gotta also respect, we can't get totally insane. And I had people ask yesterday about if you had an artificial hip and things like that.

There are companies that reclaim these, recycle these, but we're not going to ask you to have that done. I mean, what we know is that made your life better and that's good enough for us. We're not having any type of invasive procedures done to your loved one. When we're going to intern them. 

Jill: A lot of people do have that, or even like a pacemaker, which is gonna have, I don't know, do they have batteries in them?

They have to have something in them, you know, like what happens to all that stuff? I guess it just gets left behind after the body breaks down. 

Ed: Yeah. I mean, you certainly don't want to introduce anything that could be a negative to the environment, but we also have to remember that this is the funny thing about natural [00:34:00] burial and people who've tried to create spaces.

They come into a lot of opposition. You know, oh, you're gonna contaminate the groundwater, or you're gonna do this, you're gonna do that. And ultimately what people have to understand is our business is a passive business model. We are not burying 10,000 people a day. When you go to the forest and you walk through those trails, you will see new burials.

But nature is unbelievable and reclaiming and restoring, and if you allow it to do its job, it's. Uh, remarkably fast, to be honest with you. When someone passes away, and like you said, they may have this or that, if it's within their body, we're not going to require that to be done. But if it's devices and things that need to be removed, that all happen prior to the actual burial itself, 

Jill: then the markers, right?

Like I guess some cemeteries allow you to have like a small marker. I think I've heard of one where they were like, no, they don't want anything at all. Like you can't put down. Anything. So is that, [00:35:00] again, something where there's guidelines of, like for green burials, maybe have like a small marker, but big tombstones are not allowed.

What's that usually look like 

Ed: In all of our facilities and, and, and in typical natural burial, like preserves, they're normally a stone of a natural shape or formation. They can be engraved, they can be painted, but they can't be polished or set in concrete. Some places don't allow them to be upright. They want them to be flat.

We personally allow natural stone upright. That's not really a big problem for us because the stones themselves typically aren't that large. We don't allow polished monuments set in concrete. If you're in a traditional cemetery setting that has a hybrid designation, maybe they created a section. That section would follow the same thing I mentioned.

It would just be flat or natural formation stones. But in the traditional area, if they did allow a natural burial within the traditional [00:36:00] area where you see the upright to the traditional stones, we allow that because that's permissible in that area now. So someone who would wanna go to that loved one with a natural burial could possibly have an upright or a flat stone of a traditional form.

And of course we allow living memorials. I think that's really important, allowing someone to plant a tree or a shrub. We always ask for natives to be planted. Now in our traditional cemeteries that really are more or less like an arboretum where it's not necessary because we have other types of trees, we will allow them to plant an ornamental tree in those circumstances.

I've said to cemeteries, this is an interesting thing for the viewers to understand, and if you're an operator, really give this consideration. What a wonderful way to repopulate your cemetery and re landscape it by allowing family members to plant trees. And you can say that you want specific variety of trees.

You give them something to choose from, and all of a sudden your cemetery's being redesigned and re-landscaped by [00:37:00] the loved ones who were choosing to go there, and they're happy about that. I think that's a big opportunity for people, and that's one they don't often consider, but should. 

Jill: Yeah, I love that too, being able to.

Plant a tree right there rather than a marker. The traditional kind of headstone. You just have the tree. I think that's really beautiful. I mean, as soon as I heard about Green Burials, I was like, oh, that is amazing. That's like my favorite thing. I hope that eventually New Jersey will do some other options as well, but for now I think we're heading in a good direction.

'cause I know you know you had Steelman Town. What other ones are there in Jersey? Did you take over a cemetery in Goshen as well? 

Ed: Yes, that's correct. I had taken over a very historic cemetery right there on that Flyway for birders going down towards Cape May, right on the Delaware Bay. That's a very historic and traditional cemetery, so that would be a completely hybrid type of situation.

You know what's really important, Jill, and we didn't really mention it, but we should. [00:38:00] Mm-hmm. All the environmental parts of this are wonderful benefits, but the true definition of a natural burial is empowering families to care for their loved ones and death like you do with the death doula work that you do.

Yeah. To allow people to be close to their loved ones when they're passing, and share all the memories and care for them as they would in life and death. Empowering them to unlock that special. Ability in their DNA that's locked up in their brain. They just don't know it to care for their loved ones in death.

It brings them closer to death in the sense that they no longer fear it. They are able to celebrate a life that was lived. When they give that final act of kindness to their loved one, when they lay them to rest in that way, the physicality of it, it is very cathartic. You can see how it really allows them to grieve in a way that they have a greater form of acceptance of that person's passing.

They don't look like they're locked in that. Grief, you're creating a lasting memory that feels good opposed to possibly feeling bad, but I don't wanna [00:39:00] knock traditional funeral service. They do wonderful things for people. But for instance, many people I'm sure have been in a situation where they've went to a funeral and they've actually not been allowed to be there when the casket lowered.

I mean, that's a big missing part of who we are and what we do. The closure, the finality of it, you know, being part of that, you drive away and you see your loved one there and you, you feel as if they don't belong to you. So I think with natural burial and the home funeral movement, we're giving that back to the families and they're better for it and they realize it.

I get families all the time, they say, I just don't know that I can do it. And I say, you know, participation is always encouraged. It's never required, but you have the ability. And once they get started. Many times they can't stop, and when they're done, they have a big smile on their face, not because they're generally happy, it's that they gained an acceptance of the passing and they feel good about it, and they come up to you and they say, man, I don't know how I did it.

Yeah. What 

Jill: ways are they able to participate? I recently went to a Jewish. [00:40:00] Burial for the first time. I'd never been to one where the family actually filled the grave in by hand with shovels. I'd never seen anything like that. I grew up Catholic, so that was a whole new thing for me. So is it something similar to that?

How do people get to participate? 

Ed: Absolutely. When they would arrive steel in town, they would be greeted by our cart, a beautiful wagon. The dorm with greenery, they're able to place their loved one on that wagon. They're able to accompany that wagon back to the grave site itself. They can pick up their loved one, whether they be shrouded or casketed, place them on that grave.

There are no time constraints there, meaning if it takes one hour, two hours, three hours, that person belongs to you. But it's a process. They are able to say the things they need to say. They're able to lower that loved one into the grave site. They're able to pick up those shovels and backfill the grave if they wish, and they're even able to place the stone at the end so it comes full circle all in one event.

A typical funeral at Steelman Town probably lasts about two hours, [00:41:00] maybe a little bit longer, but if you told somebody that they'd think it was like 45 minutes, and not in a bad way, it's because it's so comforting, it's so comfortable. It doesn't drag on, it doesn't feel as if you wanna leave. People tend to hang out even after the burial is complete, continue to talk.

And so it's really a unique experience and that's what people need to understand. We're empowering people here to care for their loved ones in death, and by doing so. We're releasing them from never being able to get over that loss. In my world, the definition of natural burial is the family part, is the family aspect.

The environmental part is the wonderful benefit. It's the family part that means the most to me. 

Jill: Returning it back to a communal experience like it used to be. Death. Doulas do the same thing where it's not about us coming in and doing something necessarily, but it's educating the families and helping them be part of the experience of their loved one dying.[00:42:00] 

Not so far removed from it, but I do think that helps with our. Closure and grieving. We're always gonna be sad that a loved one dies, but it doesn't have to be this overwhelming, traumatic experience that a lot of people associate death with. If we could really just do it all a little bit different, and I love that.

That's a big part of it with the green burials is. It's really about bringing the family and the community into the process. Not so much just showing up at the grave site, doing a couple things, and then going to lunch afterwards, which is what I think of when I think of the funerals I've been to. 

Ed: It's a complete experience, a memorable experience, and who can say that a funeral's memorable?

'cause nobody wants to go to somebody's funeral. If you can make it a memorable sendoff, then you remember that forever. And then that's good memories and you tend to wanna go back and visit so many traditional cemeteries leave people in a place they don't wanna go back 'cause it doesn't feel good when you can make them feel good and when they're feeling so bad.[00:43:00] 

That's a testament for what we do. I see my families all the time, and I never see them grieving at the grave site. I see 'em walk on the trails and I get a big, Hey, ed, how are you? Smile, little chitchat. They're there enjoying the property. Of course, they're visiting their loved one, but they're there to enjoy it.

So probably reflecting on that individual as they walk through the trails. 

Jill: It is. It's so beautiful. So if anybody's listening, if you're close to South Jersey, I know a lot of us, we go to the shore in the summertime, stop by. You could just Google it. It's easy to stop on your way to any of the shore points and just go for a walk.

'cause it really is just a beautiful, beautiful spot. We are coming up on our time though, so why don't you just tell us. I'll put the links in the show notes, but tell us where should people find out more about you? Do you want the website? You should mention social medias, like where should people head?

Ed: Absolutely. First and foremost, go to the Global Green Burial Alliance. If you believe in what we do, support the movement, take the pledge, become part of the family, receive [00:44:00] the benefits of the podcast forums, and all the informational stuff from the directory. You'll love it. Believe me, you'll absolutely love it.

If you wanna learn more about who we are, go to destination destiny memorials.com. You can look at all of our properties, and if you ever have any questions, the GGBA as we call it, is a wonderful resource. Feel free to reach out to us, but yeah, that's the best way to do it, Jill. Support the movement and support the people within the movement because way back when I was with the Green Burial Council, I was asked, why do you go to these certain.

Industry events, let's say. At the time, the mindset was they were the enemy and they never were the enemy. They needed to be our partners. I said, because if there's no voice to be heard in the room, there's going to be no change. For many years, I was a single voice in that room. Eventually it changed. So be an advocate for your community and you will get changed.

Funeral providers are wonderful people. Go [00:45:00] speak to them. If they don't offer it, they will. They need you to ask for it to happen. Support people like Jill, the National Home Funeral Movement is really a special thing. Have funerals at home. Keep people close to you because this is the final moments and make good memories out of it, so I appreciate it.

Jill. Thank you very much. 

Jill: Oh, thank you so much, ed, for coming on and I really look forward to potentially doing more together in the future. So I think there's a lot of opportunities 'cause we have the same mission, so I'm looking forward to it. 

Ed: Great. Thanks everybody. 

Jill: A quick note about the fan mail feature on my podcast, I can't respond to it other than responding here in a podcast episode.

So if you'd like to reach me, please email me at Jill at end of life clarity.com. There's a link in the show notes to my email address. In next week's episode, we're gonna talk about what happens when a family can talk about sex, but not about death. Sociologist Elizabeth Wood shares the story of her mother's final years, a time of sexual awakening, [00:46:00] terminal illness and emotional complexity.

Her mother embraced a new identity as a sexual dominatrix in her late fifties, even while undergoing dialysis and cancer treatments. But while she openly explored pleasure and power, conversations about dying remain difficult, both within the family and with her medical team, Elizabeth reflects on the stigma that still surrounds sexuality and healthcare and how that silence often mirrors our fear of death.

She invites us to consider new ways of thinking about intimacy, aging, and connection, especially when time is limited. This conversation explores the intersections of sex dying and dignity, and by giving people space to talk about what matters most before the end can be a radical act of care. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting.

Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing. Favorite podcast platform and leaving a five star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers [00:47:00] a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show.

Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free. Whether your donation is large or small, every amount is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can. You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription, as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one-time contribution.

Thank you and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death. Clearly.