End-of-Life Conversation with Barbara Karnes, RN
Seeing Death Clearly
In this episode, I welcome back Barbara Karnes to discuss the journey of transitioning from 'we' to 'me' after her husband Jack's death.
Barbara shares heartfelt stories about her early days in hospice care, highlighting the value of understanding daily responsibilities and her experiences with end-of-life preparations, emphasizing the importance of discussing finances and duties early.
We also discuss how death doulas play a role in modern hospice care, her thoughts on medical aid in dying, the creation of her widely beneficial booklets like 'Gone From My Sight,' and offers perspectives on educating families about the natural process of dying.
This episode aims to open minds and demystify death, dying, and grief, encouraging listeners to prepare and embrace end-of-life conversations.
00:00 Introduction to End of Life Education
00:45 Guest Introduction: Barbara Carnes
01:35 Adjusting to Life After Loss
02:56 The Importance of Being Prepared
04:18 Challenges of Living Independently
07:10 Support Systems and Grief Counseling
08:54 End of Life Doulas and Hospice Care
13:31 Medical Aid in Dying: Perspectives and Ethics
00:00 Comparing Birth and Death
25:39 Contemplating Mortality and Legacy
27:12 Current Projects and Writing
28:07 The Importance of Food at End of Life
30:28 The Family Support Bundle
33:11 The Origin of 'Gone From My Sight'
36:11 Personal Stories and Impact
40:04 The Shift Back to Home Deaths
43:48 Resources and Contact Information
46:17 Final Thoughts and Farewell
https://bkbooks.com/products/approaching-death-support-kit
https://bkbooks.com/blogs/something-to-think-about
https://www.instagram.com/barbarakarnesrn/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbarakarnesrn/
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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Facebook group End of Life Clarity Circle
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Death Doula Insights About The Importance of End-of-Life Planning
Seeing Death Clearly
In this episode of 'Seeing Death Clearly,' host Jill McClennen, a death doula and funeral celebrant, welcomes Marni Blank, a former attorney turned entrepreneur and end-of-life doula. They discuss the emotional and logistical challenges families face regarding end-of-life planning. Marni shares her personal journey, including her mother's serious accident, which highlighted the importance of having essential paperwork in order.
The conversation focuses on the significance of open discussions about end-of-life wishes, the role of a death doula, and practical advice for organizing important documents. They emphasize the importance of choosing the right people for roles like healthcare proxies and how preparation can provide peace of mind. Jill and Marni also address the common barriers and emotional reactions people have when discussing these topics and offer insights into facilitating these important conversations.
00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage
00:43 Meet Marni Blank: From Attorney to End-of-Life Doula
00:55 The Importance of End-of-Life Planning
02:44 Challenges and Realizations in End-of-Life Conversations
03:50 The Role and Impact of a Death Doula
04:25 Personal Stories and Experiences
08:09 Navigating Family Dynamics and Responsibilities
10:09 The Emotional and Practical Aspects of End-of-Life Decisions
37:21 The Role of Medical Professionals in End-of-Life Care
41:05 Marni's Business and Resources for End-of-Life Planning
44:10 Conclusion and Call to Action
Website: https://beginwiththeend.co/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beginwith_theend/
Book a Free Call: https://calendly.com/marni-blank/marni-blank-initial-consultation
Plan Well Organizer: https://beginwiththeend.co/plan-well-organizer
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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Facebook group End of Life Clarity Circle
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Navigating Grief and Embracing Spirituality with Dave Roberts
Seeing Death Clearly
In this episode of Seeing Death Clearly, Dave Roberts talks about his journey navigating grief after the death of his daughter, Janine. Roberts, an addictions counselor and psychology professor, shares his perspectives on spirituality, the afterlife, and the different ways he and his wife coped with their loss while supporting each other. He emphasizes the importance of maintaining bonds with loved ones, embracing varying beliefs, and the role of community in healing. Roberts discusses how his experience has transformed his approach to living genuinely and offers tips for those dealing with loss. This insightful conversation sheds light on the intersection of grief, end-of-life planning, and the potential for spiritual growth through challenging experiences.
00:00 Introduction and Opening Thoughts
00:11 Welcome to Seeing Death Clearly
00:36 Guest Introduction: Dave Roberts
01:38 Dave's Background and Career
04:06 The Tragic Story of Janine
08:10 Coping with Grief and Loss
17:24 Supporting Each Other Through Grief
20:56 Living with the End in Mind
24:41 Choosing Our Path: Embracing Challenges and Legacy
25:33 Teaching About Death: Finding Joy and Responsibility
27:29 Death, Dying, and Bereavement
28:56 Integrating Science and Spirituality
31:15 Personal Transformations and Beliefs
41:03 Encouraging Critical Thinking and Respect
45:48 Conclusion and Contact Information
My episode on Dave's podcast https://youtu.be/_2cYKpY88bQ?si=LUDW677SjaEN82kc
Personal Website: http://davidrobertsmsw.com/
When The Psychology Professor Met The Minister on Amazon : https://a.co/d/bWzOO3n
The Teaching Journeys Podcast : https://rss.com/podcasts/theteachingjourneys https://www.youtube.com/@daveroberts301
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/david.j.roberts1/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-roberts-56690513/
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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Facebook group End of Life Clarity Circle
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Navigating Grief and Gratitude During the Holidays
Seeing Death Clearly
In this special Thanksgiving episode, Jill McClennen discusses the complex emotions of gratitude and grief that many people experience during the holidays. Early in the morning, Jill felt a mix of thankfulness and sadness and realized that she was not alone in these feelings. Holidays often amplify what we're already feeling, creating a paradox of joy and sorrow, especially when dealing with the loss of loved ones, relationship issues, or even societal pressures.
Jill emphasizes the importance of acknowledging grief instead of suppressing it. She recounts her personal experiences, including the loss of her grandmother and the challenges of maintaining holiday cheer amidst grief. Jill advises on setting boundaries, creating new rituals, and finding personal ways to cope, such as art and movement.
She reminds listeners that it's okay to feel both gratitude and grief, and encourages them to reach out for support and to honor their complex feelings during the holiday season.
00:00 Introduction and Thanksgiving Reflections
00:50 Navigating Complex Emotions During Holidays
01:44 Societal Pressures and Isolation
02:24 Grief and Loss in Relationships
03:22 Anticipatory Grief and Global Concerns
04:16 Historical Context of Thanksgiving
05:43 Environmental Grief and Hope for the Future
06:49 The Empowered Grief Journey
08:29 Creating New Rituals and Setting Boundaries
13:37 Art as a Coping Mechanism
16:53 Final Thoughts and Support
18:09 Closing Remarks and Call to Action
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
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Facebook group End of Life Clarity Circle
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Understanding Death Doula Work: Compassion, Grief, and End-of-Life Support with Tolley Casper's
Seeing Death Clearly
In this episode of Seeing Death Clearly, Jill McClennen sits down with Tolley Casparis, a death doula from Southern California, to explore the realities of supporting people at the end of life. They discuss the emotional challenges of caregiving, the importance of community, and how conscious preparation can create healing for both the dying and their loved ones. This conversation offers insight into the compassionate, yet often misunderstood, work of death doulas.
Tolley shares what it truly means to guide someone through their final days, addressing emotions that often go unnamed, such as anger, fear, and frustration. She emphasizes the power of holding space consistently and quietly, and how these small acts can profoundly impact both the person dying and their families. The discussion also covers the accessibility of quality end-of-life care, navigating medical aid in dying, and the delicate balance between volunteer and paid work in the field.
They explore the challenges around certification, the influence of social media on death doula work, and why ongoing learning and genuine community are essential for anyone supporting the dying. This episode provides an honest, grounded look at death doula work, conscious living, and supporting others with compassion and clarity.
https://deathprofesh.com/
Insta @tolleycasparis and @yourdeathprofessional
00:00 Introduction and Purpose
00:10 Welcome to Seeing Death
00:35 Guest Introduction: Tolley Casparis
01:01 The Realities of Death Doula Work
01:12 Challenges and Certifications
01:47 Personal Background of Tali Caspar
03:19 Balancing Paid and Volunteer Work
03:21 End of Life Care Plans
03:43 Dealing with Difficult Conversations
07:44 The Concept of a Good Death
17:47 Art and Grief
21:13 Certification Debate
24:19 The Challenge of Gaining Experience as a Death Doula
26:09 Heart-Centered Qualifications and Volunteering
26:56 The Debate on Charging for Services
29:08 Certification and Training Controversies
32:57 Marketing and Personal Branding
39:59 Navigating Client Relationships and Boundaries
44:46 Building Community and Setting Industry Standards
45:28 Conclusion and Call to Action
Support the show financially by doing a paid monthly subscription, any amount large or small help to keep the podcast advertisement free. https://www.buzzsprout.com/2092749/support
Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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Jonathan Foster on Grief, Love, and Reimagining Faith After Loss
Seeing Death Clearly
Jonathan Foster joins the conversation to share the story behind Indigo, his book about the life and death of his daughter, Quincy. This episode explores how a parent’s grief can reshape faith, deepen compassion, and reveal new ways to heal and live consciously. It offers an honest look at love, loss, and the courage it takes to rebuild meaning after tragedy.
He explains how losing her forced him to rethink long-held beliefs about God, certainty, and what it means to love without conditions. Jonathan describes how this heartbreak challenged his theology but also opened space for a more expansive, healing understanding of love that is not limited by religious rules. He shares how nature, community, and honest conversations about death and dying helped him stay connected to his daughter’s legacy while learning to live with deep sorrow. Together, they reflect on the “sin of certainty,” the power of curiosity, and the importance of end-of-life awareness in shaping a more compassionate world.
Jonathan’s background spans decades of ministry, writing, and advocacy. He is a father of three, a former church planter, and a partner of one, with a doctorate in theology from Northwind Seminary. His work, including his leadership with lovehaiti.org and the co-founding of OpenTable.network, centers on love-driven community, inclusion, and human connection. His book Indigo: The Color of Grief has been praised by progressive Christian thinkers for its honest exploration of death, mourning, and healing. This conversation offers comfort, clarity, and a reminder that even in loss, beauty and meaning can still be found.
00:00 Introduction: Exploring Life and Death
00:16 Meet the Host: Jill McClennan
00:41 Guest Introduction: Jonathan Foster
01:34 A Mother's Grief and Appreciation
03:03 The Meaning Behind 'Indigo'
05:06 Faith, Loss, and Transformation
09:57 Navigating Grief and Relationships
17:11 The Divine and Gender Perspectives
20:33 Balancing Masculine and Feminine Energies
22:51 Questioning Good and Bad
24:17 The Absurdity of Defining Good and Bad
26:39 Leaving Religion and Asking Questions
30:48 The Sin of Certainty
34:34 Understanding Sin and Love
37:15 Unconditional Love and Compassion
41:40 The Complexity of Love and Forgiveness
43:10 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
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Navigating End-of-Life Care with Princella Seymour
Seeing Death Clearly
In this episode, our guest is Princella Seymour, a social worker with decades of experience in geriatrics and dementia care. Princella shares how she was called into elder care work, why early planning is essential, and what families often struggle with when a loved one is diagnosed with Alzheimer’s or another form of dementia.
Together, they explore the emotional, financial, and logistical realities of caregiving, along with the federal and state resources that many people don’t know are available. Princella highlights the importance of honest conversations, clear planning, and making decisions before a crisis hits so families can focus on connection rather than chaos.
Her new book, Everything You Need to Know About Me, inspired by the countless families she’s supported through painful, confusing decisions, is now available on Amazon.
As CEO of Complete Elder Solutions, she has guided thousands of families through the complexities of aging.
00:00 Introduction to Seeing Death Clearly
00:43 Meet Prince Seymour: A Journey in Geriatric Social Work
02:07 Navigating Alzheimer's and Dementia Care
06:12 The Role of a Care Coach
08:01 Financial and Legal Planning for Elder Care
16:17 The Importance of Pre-Planning
19:21 Encouraging Conversations About End-of-Life Care
24:05 Navigating Family Conversations About End-of-Life Planning
24:51 The Importance of Written Wishes
25:17 Family Dynamics and Funeral Experiences
25:46 The Challenges of Caregiving
26:10 Making Tough Decisions in Crisis Situations
27:29 The Cost of Care and Financial Strain
28:13 Balancing Caregiving with Personal Responsibilities
29:33 Support Programs for Caregivers
31:18 The Value of Professional Guidance
40:35 Revisiting End-of-Life Plans Over Time
43:15 Conclusion and Resources
URL https://www.completeeldersolutions.com/
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/complete-elder-solutions/
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/CompleteElderSolutions#
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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Exploring Grief and Death Conversations with the Creator of Morbid Curiosity Kimberley Mead
Seeing Death Clearly
In this episodeI talk with Kimberley Mead, a grief therapist who transitioned from a career in the arts at age 40. Kimberley shares her journey into grief therapy and the development of her game, Morbid Curiosity, which has sparked transformative conversations about death. She discusses the importance of storytelling in grief therapy and how her game fosters deeper connections and meaningful conversations about mortality.
The episode also highlights the profound impact of discussing death on personal relationships and societal attitudes towards grief. Jill and Kimberley delve into the nuances of grief, the power of storytelling, and how addressing these themes can enrich our lives.
The episode promises an insightful conversation that navigates grief with compassion and curiosity, encouraging listeners to explore conscious living and end-of-life planning. Tune in for a heartwarming and thought-provoking discussion about death, dying, and the legacy we leave behind.
00:00 Introduction to Seeing Death
00:36 Meet Kimberley Mead: From Arts to Grief Therapy
01:42 The Power of Storytelling in Grief Therapy
02:54 Personal Journeys and Career Changes
04:01 The Game of Morbid Curiosity
06:17 Understanding Grief and Pain
09:58 The Role of Pain in Healing
12:12 Engaging Conversations Through the Game
14:54 Creating Meaningful Connections
16:33 How the Game Works
24:08 Exploring Historical Perspectives on Privacy
24:56 Deep Conversations and Meaningful Connections
26:11 Embracing Death Positivity
27:47 Navigating Personal Loss and Memories
29:46 The Importance of Deep Friendships
31:09 Creating and Sharing the Morbid Curiosity Game
39:35 The Role of a Grief Therapist
41:48 Where to Find the Game and Workshops
44:13 Supporting the Podcast
https://www.morbidcuriositygame.com
https://www.facebook.com/morbidcuriositygame
https://www.instagram.com/morbidcuriositygame/
Support the show financially by doing a paid monthly subscription, any amount large or small help to keep the podcast advertisement free. https://www.buzzsprout.com/2092749/support
Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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Facebook group End of Life Clarity Circle
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Overcoming Loss and Finding Joy with JoBeth Polley
Seeing Death Clearly
In this episode of the podcast 'Seeing Death Clearly,' host Jill McClennen talks to Jo Beth Polly about her experiences with infertility and the death of her husband from brain cancer. Jo Beth shares how these profound losses shaped her life and career in helping others navigate grief.
They discuss the isolating nature of grief, the importance of genuine support, and how such intense experiences can lead to personal growth and a deeper understanding of what truly matters in life. Jo Beth emphasizes that while grief is incredibly challenging, there is always potential for joy and purpose to emerge from it.
The conversation also touches on the importance of presence over busyness, particularly in parenting, and how society often misguides us. Together, they explore the idea that by acknowledging and working through grief, individuals can find a renewed sense of connection and purpose.
00:00 Introduction and Host's Perspective on Grief
01:30 Guest Introduction and Infertility Journey
02:33 Navigating Grief and Isolation
07:07 Therapy and Coping Mechanisms
10:09 Spirituality and Physical Impact of Grief
15:55 Living with Purpose and Presence
21:15 Reflecting on Life's Priorities
25:33 Discussing the Pressure of Youth Sports
26:51 Reflecting on the Impact of Over-Scheduling
28:36 COVID-19: A Forced Pause and Its Lessons
33:33 The Value of Happiness Over Achievement
38:49 Grief and Joy: Co-Authoring a Book
42:40 The Importance of Seeking Help
45:24 Closing Remarks and Support
https://nwagriefspecialists.com/
https://www.facebook.com/nwagriefspecialists
Episode with Chris Mamone our coauthor https://www.buzzsprout.com/2092749/episodes/16878010
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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Transforming Funeral Planning and Support with Give Willow
Seeing Death Clearly
In this podcast episode, Janet Turkula and Ryan Olivera, the founders of Give Willow, a platform designed to support families during funeral planning by allowing the community to contribute financially. Janet shares her personal story of losing her father at 21 and the struggle her family faced with unexpected funeral expenses, which inspired her to create Give Willow.
The platform works like a wedding registry, enabling families to list specific items needed for a funeral, making it easier for friends and family to offer meaningful support. Ryan, who specializes in tech startups, discusses his initial discomfort with the topic of death but explains how working with Janet and understanding her vision changed his perspective.
They both aim to change societal attitudes towards death, making it a more open and community-supported process. The platform also provides resources to help with the often-overwhelming administrative tasks following a death. The episode emphasizes the importance of planning for end-of-life and reducing the stigma around discussing death.
- Janet's Personal Story and Inspiration
- The Birth of Give Willow
- Ryan's Journey and Partnership
- How Give Willow Works
- Future Goals and Vision
- The Cost of Dying and Unclaimed Bodies
- Personal Reflections on Death and Grief
- The Importance of Planning for Death
- Conversations with Children About Death
- Encouraging End-of-Life Planning
- Creating a Platform for End-of-Life Planning
- Changing the Stigma Around Death
- Celebration of Life vs. Traditional Funerals
info@givewillow.com
Ryan@givewillow.com
Website: https://givewillow.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/givewillow/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@givewillow
Support the show financially by doing a paid monthly subscription, any amount large or small help to keep the podcast advertisement free. https://www.buzzsprout.com/2092749/support
Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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Inside the Life of a Funeral Director with Allyse Worland
Seeing Death Clearly
Funeral director and celebrant Allyse Worland shares how her lifelong passion for funeral service began with a personal tragedy and grew into a calling to help others through death, grief, and healing. With sixteen years of experience, she offers a unique look at what it means to care for both the living and the dead—bringing compassion, artistry, and education to end-of-life care. Her story sheds light on how funeral professionals are embracing change, from eco-friendly green burials to more meaningful, personalized celebrations of life.
Allyse has worked in funeral service since she was fifteen, growing up in a small town in Indiana where community and ritual shaped her values. Today, she is a licensed funeral director, embalmer, restorative artist, and educator who trains others in ethics, compliance, and compassion. She also serves as a funeral celebrant, helping families create personalized ceremonies that honor their loved ones without relying solely on traditional religion.
Her interest in restorative art began when, at nine years old, she saw a family member who had died by suicide and felt deep sadness at how unnatural he looked. That moment inspired her to learn the science and art of restoration, helping families remember their loved ones with dignity.
Allyse also advocates for green burial options and helps families explore “shades of green”—from natural cemeteries and biodegradable caskets to eco-friendly embalming fluids approved by the Green Burial Council. She believes education empowers families to make conscious, sustainable choices about death care.
As a mentor, Allyse encourages new funeral professionals to adapt to changing values around death, dying, and legacy. She teaches that understanding grief, reducing stigma around death by suicide, and celebrating life are essential to modern death care.
After years of nonstop dedication, Allyse now embraces self-care and balance, recognizing that caring for others begins with caring for herself. Her story reflects a powerful truth at the heart of death work: by facing death with love, we learn how to live more consciously.
https://www.rememberingalife.com NFDA's Remembering A Life Website
Have License Will Travel | Continuing Education
https://www.linkedin.com/in/allyse-worland-cfsp-818109326/
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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Reimagining Death Care: Cemetery Societies with Cheri Wallace
Seeing Death Clearly
Funerals in the United States have become unaffordable for many families, often forcing them into debt, fundraising, or unwanted cremations. This episode features Cheri Wallace, who shares a powerful grassroots solution: cemetery societies. By returning to community-based traditions of shared land and collective care, she believes people can reclaim death care in a way that is affordable, sustainable, and rooted in dignity. The conversation highlights how death doulas, grief awareness, and green burial practices are reshaping how we plan for the end of life.
Cheri explains how personal loss and her sister’s struggles inspired her mission. After seeing her sister forced to turn to GoFundMe for burial expenses, Cheri began searching for a solution. Through prayer and research, she realized that communities once managed death care by pooling small contributions to purchase land and create burial grounds. Today, she is reviving this model through nonprofit cemetery societies. These groups form boards, adopt bylaws, and provide affordable burial options without the financial burden of traditional funeral homes.
Her work emphasizes conscious living and dying, as well as legacy planning. Each member can join with as little as $100, ensuring that no one is excluded from having a burial. The societies also embrace ecological responsibility by avoiding embalming, concrete vaults, and costly caskets. Families may choose self-directed funerals or bring in professionals, giving them freedom and flexibility.
Education plays a key role in Cheri’s vision. With support from the Green Burial Council and guidance from death doulas, societies learn how to operate responsibly and sustainably. Grants and petitions are helping expand the effort nationwide, to create 100 cemetery societies in 100 counties led by trained doulas.
This vision challenges the current funeral industry, which often prioritizes profit over people. By encouraging community, creativity, and healing, Cheri offers a way to honor loved ones while reducing financial strain. Instead of debt and stress, families can invest in meaningful memorials, gardens, or community spaces. It is a return to simple, compassionate death care that empowers individuals to reclaim their right to die with dignity.
Support the show financially by doing a paid monthly subscription, any amount large or small help to keep the podcast advertisement free. https://www.buzzsprout.com/2092749/support
Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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Entering Year Four of Seeing Death Clearly
Seeing Death Clearly
In this special episode of Seeing Death Clearly, Jill reflects on three years of deep conversations about death, dying, grief, and living fully. As the podcast enters its fourth year, Jill shares what she’s learned from her incredible guests — from Holocaust survivors to hospice workers, death doulas, authors, and more.
She talks about how the podcast has evolved, the lessons it’s taught her, and the moments that have touched her deeply. Jill shares stories that moved her, guests who changed her perspective, and the surprising ways this work has impacted her life.
This episode is a heartfelt thank-you to listeners and guests, and an invitation to be part of the journey ahead. Jill also shares ways you can support the podcast and invites you to connect, share ideas, and even suggest guests you’d love to hear again.
Whether you’ve been with the podcast since the beginning or are just discovering it now, this episode is a celebration of connection, curiosity, and courage.
Email: jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Facebook: End of Life Clarity
Join the End of Life Clarity Circle Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/16utkrMass/
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
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Facing Grief and Life After Child Loss with Jason Tuttle
Seeing Death Clearly
Grief can change the course of a life, and for Jason Tuttle, it became both a personal journey and a calling to help others. As a father and caregiver, he lived through the daily realities of hospital stays, medical decisions, and profound loss. After the death of his son in January 2022, Jason began to share his experiences with grief, end-of-life planning, and conscious living as a way to heal and to guide others through their own journeys.
Jason and his wife were in their twenties when their first son was born with Eagle-Barrett syndrome, a rare condition that required weeks in the NICU. Over time, both of their children developed severe developmental delays and epilepsy, and Jason became the full-time medical caregiver. He spent nearly every hospital day at their sides, balancing hope with the hard truths of illness. When his son died, grief came in waves of anger, isolation, and heartbreak. Therapy and journaling offered a way to process, and writing publicly helped him connect with others who felt the same.
Today Jason continues this work by creating resources, speaking about grief and dying, and sharing his perspective on legacy and healing. His journey shows how end-of-life care and death doula work are not only about preparing for death, but also about living with purpose and love. This conversation is an honest reflection on caregiving, conscious living, and the ways grief can shape a meaningful path forward.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61552174684952
https://www.instagram.com/letterstozachary2022
https://www.tiktok.com/@letterstozachary2022
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
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Death Doula Care for Dying with Kasey March
Seeing Death Clearly
End-of-life doula Kasey March shares how personal loss and a background in guiding people through complex systems led her to death work. After experiencing the painful absence of support when her grandmother died in the ICU, she realized the importance of conscious planning, education, and compassionate guidance for both the dying and their loved ones. Her work centers on having conversations before a crisis arises, empowering families to make decisions grounded in values, legacy, and healing.
Kasey helps families navigate end-of-life care, plan legacy projects, and prepare for difficult decisions with compassion and clarity. She often supports clients through advance directives, hospice options, and even medical aid in dying, always centering the client’s wishes. Beyond one-on-one work, she educates communities about grief, dying, and medical decision-making, reminding people that preparation can prevent confusion and guilt later.
For Kasey, a “well-supported death” means reducing burdens, opening space for connection, and helping families integrate grief without judgment. Through advocacy, education, and compassionate presence, she works to ensure that death, like birth, can be approached with dignity, choice, and love.
Links: Website www.doulacarefordying.com
October 27, 2025 at noon Kasey will be appearing on EXIT MATTERS, a live online series hosted by Patient Choices Vermont (PCV). How our final chapter unfolds depends upon the people, support, and choices that surround us. Kasey's session will cover "What is a Death Doula?"
IG: @doulacarefordying | w: doulacarefordying.com
on death & dying: the role of an end of life doula quick watch
a good death or a well-supported death? quick watch
resources and motivation to help you and your loved ones have a well-supported death. Click here!
No visitors please, a free PDF template for when you need to tell friends and family your loved one isn't accepting visitors, click here!
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
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jill@endoflifeclarity.com
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Life with Lewy Body Dementia with Tonya Hersha
Seeing Death Clearly
In this episode, the guest shares her journey of living with Lewy body dementia, exploring how grief, acceptance, and conscious planning shape her approach to life and death. She reflects on the challenges of diagnosis, the impact on her independence, and the ways she finds healing while preparing her legacy for her family.
Growing up in Texas, she experienced loss early when her mother passed away right after high school, which eventually led her to move across the country before settling in Indiana. With a background in mental health and years as an EMT, she recognized the early signs of her condition and understood what the future might hold. For her, grief was not about having the disease but mourning the life she had imagined for herself, including the cultural and familial roles she hoped to embrace.
Her symptoms began subtly, with coordination and balance issues that affected walking, stairs, and driving. Initial medical visits were dismissive, attributing her symptoms to menopause or depression, until she finally found a neurologist who listened. Physical and occupational therapy helped her maintain mobility at home, while support from a Facebook community of women facing similar diagnoses provided vital emotional connection and guidance.
Therapy played a critical role in helping her re-accept her diagnosis as symptoms changed her daily life, from losing the ability to drive to needing a shower chair. Her past experiences with loss informed her approach to end-of-life planning: she has prepared documents and arrangements to reduce stress for her family. She even planned a joyful, personalized living funeral. Through this, she embraces death with humor, love, and intentionality, seeking to create healing, connection, and a lasting legacy while living consciously to the fullest.
https://www.facebook.com/share/g/1CKRK8as8Y/
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
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AJ Coleman on Grief and Fatherhood
Seeing Death Clearly
In this episode, AJ Coleman shares his journey of losing his wife to brain cancer, raising their daughter as a single father, and finding healing through grief, storytelling, and conscious living.
AJ Coleman, author of Keep Those Feet Moving, became a widower at 33 when his wife died of brain cancer, leaving him to raise their 16-month-old daughter. He described those first months as a blur of grief, survival, and determination to honor his wife’s wishes while staying strong for his child. Though others expected him to fall apart, AJ chose to focus on love, healing, and creating memories that would keep his wife’s presence alive for their daughter.
As a single father, he learned the everyday struggles of parenting—figuring out how to dress his daughter, balancing work, and managing grief. Yet he discovered strength in their bond, leaning on his daughter as much as she leaned on him. Over the years, he kept her mother’s memory alive through photos, stories, and humor, recognizing that grief is not only about loss but also about preserving love and legacy.
AJ’s journey highlights the realities of anticipatory grief, the importance of end-of-life planning, and the unexpected ways healing unfolds. Writing his book became a form of therapy, helping him process loss while offering hope to others navigating death, grief, or setbacks. His story reminds us that while family and friends can support us, true healing comes from within through resilience, openness, and conscious living. For him, carrying on his wife’s legacy is not just about remembrance, but about choosing to live fully, despite loss.
https://keepthosefeetmoving.com/
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
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Suicide Loss and the Power of Writing with Cyra S. Dumitru
Seeing Death Clearly
This episode explores how writing, grief, and spiritual connection can help us process loss and live more consciously. Poet and author Cyra Dumitru shares her journey of losing her brother David to suicide, and how poetry became a vital tool for healing, end-of-life reflection, and honoring his legacy. Her story shows how creative expression can help us face trauma, navigate grief, and discover meaning after loss.
Cyra grew up in a family that cherished language. Her parents filled her childhood with stories, poems, and the beauty of words. She discovered early that writing could make imagination real, like the first time she wrote about a bird and felt its presence in the room. This love of language grew into a lifelong practice of poetry, journaling, and honoring the power of imagination.
When her brother David died by suicide, Cyra was only sixteen. She witnessed his final moments and carried the trauma and regret for years. Poetry became her lifeline, giving her a way to process the physical, emotional, and spiritual weight of that loss. Over time, she began to feel David’s presence in dreams and memories, not as “her brother who died,” but as a loving spirit who continued to walk beside her.
Through decades of writing, revising, and reflection, Cyra created a book that blends poetry, memory, and healing. She believes that writing allows grief to move through the body, opening space for discernment, connection, and even joy. Journaling, especially noticing small daily beauties, became a grounding practice that helped her reclaim inner balance.
Her work highlights how creative expression, end-of-life reflection, and conscious living help us carry grief, honor legacy, and move toward healing.
If you’re struggling, call 988 or visit the Suicide Prevention Resource Center.
To purchase Cyra’s book, head to Bookshop
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
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From Fear of Death to Funeral Director: Tasha Dugan’s Journey at Philadelphia’s Historic Laurel Hill Cemetery
Seeing Death Clearly
What happens when a childhood fear of death transforms into a lifelong calling? Funeral director Tasha Dugan, who works at the historic Laurel Hill Cemetery in Philadelphia, shares her powerful journey from being a frightened child at funerals to guiding families through grief, legacy, and healing. Her story shows how facing death directly can open doors to conscious living, spiritual growth, and death positivity.
Tasha was born in South Philadelphia and raised partly in North Carolina before returning at age seven. Inspired by her aunt, who worked for the medical examiner’s office, she grew fascinated with the stories behind every death. That curiosity led her to work as an autopsy technician at Temple Hospital and eventually to become a funeral director, a role she has embraced for more than 15 years. Today, she finds joy in helping families participate in rituals such as green burials and hands-on care, creating profound opportunities for healing and closure.
Her journey has also been deeply spiritual. Once afraid of dying, she now embraces it as part of life’s cycle and helps others do the same. She advocates for sustainable practices like aquamation and natural burial, honoring both loved ones and the earth. Her most meaningful moments come when she sees a grieving family move from pain to peace, knowing their loved one has been honored with compassion and dignity.
Laurel Hill itself has a rich history. Founded in 1836, it was a leader in America’s rural cemetery movement, designed by Scottish-born architect John Notman as both a burial ground and a landscaped arboretum along the Schuylkill River. Families once hired renowned sculptors to craft elaborate monuments, turning the site into one of Philadelphia’s first cultural attractions. Today, Laurel Hill East and West span 265 acres of gardens, art, and history, serving as both sacred ground and a public space for remembrance, reflection, and education.
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
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Death Doula Work, End-of-Life Planning, and Soulful Living with Lisa Cox
Seeing Death Clearly
Lisa Cox has spent her life as a teacher, guiding people through different stages of learning and growth. Now, as a death doula and shamanic practitioner, she helps individuals and families navigate the profound transition of dying. Her work blends practical support, like completing advance healthcare directives and organizing end-of-life documents, with emotional and spiritual guidance. Lisa emphasizes that dying is a deeply personal experience, and every doula brings unique skills, whether that’s bedside vigil, family mediation, or helping clients prepare in advance.
Through her monthly online Death Cafes with Morbid Anatomy, Lisa creates safe spaces for open conversations about death, grief, and legacy. She has seen firsthand how important it is for people to address end-of-life plans early, noting that hospice care not only improves quality of life but can also extend it when started sooner.
Lisa also speaks about the importance of conscious living, feeding the soul through meaningful experiences, nature, creativity, and connection. She challenges the idea of postponing joy until retirement, urging people to live richly now, regardless of age or health. Her message is clear: planning for death is not just about preparing for the end, it’s about learning to live more fully in the present, so that when the final transition comes, it can be met with peace, dignity, and love.
FB and IG pages/accounts and YouTube are all under @HjertehagenHealingPassages
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100095116136496
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
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Inner Realms Journey: Guided Meditation for Life, Death, and Spiritual Healing with Aaron Pyne
Seeing Death Clearly
In this episode, I’m joined by Aaron Pyne, a meditation teacher, digital artist, and the creator of Inner Realms Journey. This imaginative and mythically inspired guided meditation experience helps people of all ages explore their inner world. Aaron blends ancient traditions, storytelling, and spiritual tools to support people in navigating life, death, and everything in between.
Aaron shares how his early fascination with mythology led him into meditation and spirituality, and how over time he integrated those passions with his skills in art and technology. The result is Inner Realms Journey, a platform offering more than 80 immersive audio meditations that guide users through magical landscapes, help them discover their unique avatars, and create deeply personal sanctuary spaces.
What began as a personal creative project evolved into something much bigger, one that’s now being used in children's hospitals to support kids facing terminal illness. These guided meditations help young people process fear, anxiety, and uncertainty, while also giving them a way to create a legacy project: a story, map, or vision of where they’ll go after death. Families can then use the same tools to continue connecting with their loved one even after they’ve passed.
Aaron also speaks about spiritual dimensions, ancestral connection, and the energetic aspects of dying that are often overlooked in modern Western culture. He shares how imagination and myth can be healing tools, offering comfort, wonder, and even excitement about what comes next.
Whether you’re a caregiver, a spiritual seeker, or simply someone curious about what lies beyond this life, Aaron’s work invites you to see the dying process through a magical and empowering lens. This conversation is filled with beauty, depth, and a refreshing approach to death that honors both mystery and imagination.
Support the show financially by doing a paid monthly subscription, any amount large or small help to keep the podcast advertisement free. https://www.buzzsprout.com/2092749/support
Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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Pleasure, Power, and the Silence Around Death with Elizabeth Wood
Seeing Death Clearly
Elizabeth Wood, a sociologist who studied gender and sexuality, found her focus shifting when her mother was diagnosed with kidney cancer in 2009 and later terminal cancer in 2012. Watching her mother’s final months opened her eyes to the ways our healthcare system avoids death and how families often do the same. This deeply personal experience led Elizabeth to explore death work from a more practical and emotional place, beyond academic research.
Her mother’s story was unique. After a life of unfulfilling relationships, she discovered her identity as a sexual dominant in her late 50s. Those years, especially during peritoneal dialysis, were surprisingly freeing and fulfilling for her. She even began writing about her experience for an online sex magazine, opening a window into the joy she found in reclaiming her sexuality.
Though mother and daughter always spoke openly about sex, they struggled to talk about death. Elizabeth’s mom often received mixed messages from her medical team, with some doctors avoiding end-of-life discussions and others trying to prepare her. Even as her health declined, she never verbally acknowledged that she was dying, though Elizabeth later found journal entries that hinted at her quiet attempts to say goodbye.
The experience revealed how little space there is in medicine to talk about both death and sexuality. Despite being open in many parts of her life, her mother feared judgment and avoided sharing her identity with healthcare providers. Elizabeth believes this silence, rooted in stigma and power dynamics, leads people to miss out on important support and care.
Bound: A Daughter, a Domme, and an End-of-Life Story - https://www.amazon.com/Bound-Daughter-Domme-End-Life/dp/1631526308
Between Us: Healing Ourselves and Changing the World Through Sociology - https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/B/bo215858659.html
https://www.facebook.com/ElizabethAnneWoodAuthor
https://www.instagram.com/elizabeth.anne.wood/
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
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How Natural Burial is Changing End-of-Life Planning with Ed Bixby
Seeing Death Clearly
Ed Bixby shares his journey from real estate developer to national leader in the green burial movement. After inheriting Steelmantown Cemetery, a family burial ground in New Jersey dating back to the 1700s, Ed shifted his focus toward more natural and sustainable ways of honoring death. His love for the land, history, and simple living helped shape a new approach to dying, one that respects nature, supports families, and celebrates each person’s legacy.
In this episode, Ed explains how natural burial aligns with conscious living and deep healing. He contrasts traditional burial practices with green alternatives, highlighting how natural cemeteries require fewer resources and allow the environment to thrive. He also shares how COVID-19 led more people to ask deeper questions about end-of-life choices.
Now, many are rethinking cremation and traditional funerals in favor of legacy trees, simple burials, and authentic connection to nature. Ed’s story offers hope and practical insight for a more grounded, compassionate future of death care.
destinationdestinymemorials.com
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
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A Death Doula’s Journey from Grief to Community Care with Meghan J. Maher
Seeing Death Clearly
Meghan J. Maher, a death doula based in Central Florida, shares how the loss of her mother led her to this meaningful work. After experiencing grief firsthand, Megan began volunteering with a local hospice and discovered what end-of-life doulas do. The connection was instant she knew this path was right for her. Now, she helps families navigate the dying process with emotional, spiritual, and practical support.
Megan reflects on how our society often avoids talking about death. Most people have never witnessed someone dying, which leads to fear, denial, and uncertainty. She believes we need to return to being a village, offering support not only to those at the end of life but also to their caregivers, families, and communities. She talks about how nature’s cycles can help us feel more connected and grounded, even during hard times.
Megan emphasizes that doula work doesn’t have to become a business. It’s enough to gain skills and offer support informally within families, neighborhoods, and friend circles. The work matters even if it’s done quietly and without pay. She also explains the difference between hospice and doula care, noting that doulas often have the gift of time and can support families long before hospice becomes available.
As someone caring for young children while supporting aging parents, Megan understands the pressure on the “sandwich generation.” She urges people to ask for help and to offer help in creative ways like spending time with a caregiver’s kids or running errands. Small actions make a big impact. When we stop pretending we’re okay doing it all alone, we open the door to true connection, healing, and care at the end of life.
https://www.instagram.com/meghanjmahereold/
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Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
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End-of-Life Support Through Spirit, Energy, and Ancestral Work with Christabeth Ingold
Seeing Death Clearly
What if dying could be more peaceful, intentional, and healing for both the living and the dying? In this powerful conversation, healer and death priestess Cristabeth Ingold shares how her soul’s calling guides her to support individuals and families through death, grief, and spiritual healing. Her work spans the physical and energetic realms, blending bodywork, astrology, ancestral healing, and soul-guided practices to help people face the end of life with clarity and peace.
Christabeth works closely with the dying and their loved ones, offering bedside support and spiritual guidance as souls prepare to transition. She combines tools like Akashic records, oracle cards, energy medicine, and traditional Hawaiian Lomi Lomi massage to bring comfort and clarity during life’s most sacred thresholds. Her journey began early in life, feeling called to this path through personal experiences of death and loss. As a death doula and spiritual practitioner, she now helps others heal grief, explore forgiveness, and reconnect with ancestral wisdom.
Christabeth also speaks about breaking down the cultural and patriarchal systems that distance us from death, calling instead for a return to ritual, ceremony, and conscious living. Through her work, she invites us to examine how we carry emotional pain and how unprocessed grief can impact our physical health. Whether guiding souls to the other side or helping the living reflect on their legacy, Christabeth reminds us that healing is always possible and that we can always begin again, even in our final breaths.
https://www.instagram.com/christabethli/
Support the show financially by doing a paid monthly subscription, any amount large or small help to keep the podcast advertisement free. https://www.buzzsprout.com/2092749/support
Subscribe to Seeing Death Clearly and leave a 5-star review if you are enjoying the podcast.
I appreciate the support, and it helps get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing the podcast. Don’t forget to check out my free workbook Living a Better Life.
You can connect with me on my website, as well as all major social media platforms.
jill@endoflifeclarity.com
Website www.endoflifeclarity.com
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End-of-Life Conversation with Barbara Karnes, RN
47:54
Death Doula Insights About The Importance of End-of-Life Planning
45:01
Navigating Grief and Embracing Spirituality with Dave Roberts
48:14
Navigating Grief and Gratitude During the Holidays
19:01
Understanding Death Doula Work: Compassion, Grief, and End-of-Life Support with Tolley Casper's
46:17
Jonathan Foster on Grief, Love, and Reimagining Faith After Loss
45:12
Navigating End-of-Life Care with Princella Seymour
46:11
Exploring Grief and Death Conversations with the Creator of Morbid Curiosity Kimberley Mead
45:02
Overcoming Loss and Finding Joy with JoBeth Polley
46:15
Transforming Funeral Planning and Support with Give Willow
43:01
Inside the Life of a Funeral Director with Allyse Worland
45:58
Reimagining Death Care: Cemetery Societies with Cheri Wallace
42:46
Entering Year Four of Seeing Death Clearly
8:39
Facing Grief and Life After Child Loss with Jason Tuttle
47:33
Death Doula Care for Dying with Kasey March
46:36
Life with Lewy Body Dementia with Tonya Hersha
42:58
AJ Coleman on Grief and Fatherhood
45:40
Suicide Loss and the Power of Writing with Cyra S. Dumitru
45:16
From Fear of Death to Funeral Director: Tasha Dugan’s Journey at Philadelphia’s Historic Laurel Hill Cemetery
42:39
Death Doula Work, End-of-Life Planning, and Soulful Living with Lisa Cox
45:15
Inner Realms Journey: Guided Meditation for Life, Death, and Spiritual Healing with Aaron Pyne
42:49
Pleasure, Power, and the Silence Around Death with Elizabeth Wood
45:41
How Natural Burial is Changing End-of-Life Planning with Ed Bixby
47:31
A Death Doula’s Journey from Grief to Community Care with Meghan J. Maher
42:23
End-of-Life Support Through Spirit, Energy, and Ancestral Work with Christabeth Ingold
45:12