🎙️ Why Web Accessibility Matters – Lindsay Miller on Inclusive Digital Design | Podcast Awesome

Learn why accessible web design matters for everyone — not just users with disabilities. Lindsay Miller joins Podcast Awesome to discuss WCAG, ADA, design best practices, and tools for accessible development.

🚨 In this insightful episode of Podcast Awesome, host Matt Johnson is joined by Lindsay Miller, accessibility advocate and member of the Web Awesome team, for a deep dive into the principles, practices, and purpose of accessible web design.

Together, they explore what web accessibility really means, debunk common misconceptions, and offer practical insights for developers, designers, and digital creators. From ADA compliance and WCAG standards to UI/UX challenges, you'll learn how small choices—like proper contrast ratios or semantic HTML—can have a big impact.

🔍 Key Topics Covered:

• What accessibility means on the web (hint: it’s about inclusion, not just disability)
• Designing and coding with empathy: serving users with temporary, situational, or permanent impairments
• Why legal compliance matters: WCAG, ADA, Section 508, and how lawsuits are shaping the web
• Real-world design challenges: from color contrast to font sizes
• How Web Awesome components are accessibility-first
• Tools, resources, and guidelines used by accessibility professionals

🛠️ Mentioned Resources:

• WebAIM.org
• WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices
• The A11Y Project
• Nielsen Norman Group’s accessibility guides

Whether you're building for clients, open-source, or your own product, this conversation is a must-listen for anyone who believes in a more usable, equitable internet.

🎧 Produced and edited by Matt Johnson
🎵 Theme song: By Ronnie Martin | interstitials by Zach Malm
🔊 Mastering by Chris Enns at Lemon Productions
📹 Video editing help from Isaac Chase / @theisaacchase

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Transcript

0:00:00 - (Matt): Welcome to Podcast Awesome, where we chat about icons, design, tech, business, and nerdery with members of the Font awesome team. I'm your host, Matt Johnson. Today we're going to be talking with a member of the Web awesome team, Lindsay Miller, and she's going to walk us through the importance of web accessibility. Many of us can often take for granted that we can just get around pretty much wherever we want to go. But when we're out and about in the world, there are people of differing abilities.

0:00:40 - (Matt): Maybe some people have low vision or trouble hearing, or maybe have mobility issues. So really the same is true with the web and we want as many people as possible to have access to information on the web. Lindsay was kind enough to share some of her time out of her busy schedule, so we're very thankful for that. And she gives us a bit of a crash course on why it's so important to build the web with accessibility in mind. Because really, when you build accessible websites, everybody wins.

0:01:12 - (Matt): Okay, let's get into it. Lindsey, thanks for coming on Podcast awesome again. It's been a while. It's nice to get caught up.

0:01:19 - (Lindsay): Yes, it is.

0:01:20 - (Matt): Yeah. Yeah. Well, man, you have been busy with Web awesome of late. I mean, ever since you came on board, you guys have been working fast, furiously. What are you guys up to right now?

0:01:31 - (Lindsay): Oh, my gosh, really? Just all of the work that we need to put into the product to actually launch it, which I think we were very optimistic about what we had to do and conceptually what we had to do at the beginning. And now it's like, I think this is a common problem in technology and development specifically, that because you're so optimistic about what you have to do, you say, oh, yeah, we can get this done in this amount of time, no problem. And then when push comes to shove, everything actually takes like 20 to 30% longer to do than you thought it would.

0:02:07 - (Lindsay): So it's, It's. It's been quite an adventure. But we've got a lot of cool stuff. We're building out our pattern library now. Kelsey's been a big part of that. Corey and Connor have both been working really hard on actually getting an authenticated application ready for Web awesome so that people can actually log in to access all of their pro stuff. And then Leah's been doing some great work on actually, like, refining our theme builder, making that really cool and really impressive.

0:02:37 - (Lindsay): And it's just been a lot of cool stuff. But it's definitely. It's crunch time. It's crunch time.

0:02:42 - (Matt): Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. It's a really exciting time. It's great to see. You know, Web awesome has some momentum now. And now Zach coming on board with Eleventy and just seeing these like, it's so cool that we're like a multi product company now and just seeing how it's all coming together, it's very exciting. So I'm always looking forward to the next snuggle time, which is coming up and seeing you guys in person. So it's been a lot of fun.

0:03:12 - (Lindsay): Yeah, that's always super fun. I'm really excited about that too.

0:03:15 - (Matt): Yeah. Well, today I thought it'd be a good idea to talk about accessibility. And you seem to have a point of view and opinions about these things. It's. It's super important. I mean, maybe we could talk a little bit about first of all, I mean, most people are going to understand, you know, what we mean when we say accessibility and web design. But maybe first, like, what does that even mean? What does accessibility and web design mean?

0:03:48 - (Matt): Maybe why is it important? And then are there some things that people maybe don't understand about it?

0:03:54 - (Lindsay): Yeah, accessibility. I think people attribute a more specific definition to it than the name implies, but it is accessibility. It is ensuring that people can access content on the web. And when we're talking about the specific realm of web accessibility, it's making sure that regardless of a person's varied abilities, whether they have some sort of visual impairment or motor impairment, cognitive impairment, regardless of the scope of that ability, that they can access what you're providing for them on the web.

0:04:31 - (Lindsay): And I think one of the biggest misconceptions with accessibility is that it's not equivalent to disability. Specifically, the way we think about if your arm's broken or if you have some, if you're in a wheelchair, if you're blind, if you're deaf, any of those things, it's more. More than it is those things, but it's more than those things. It's really the entire scope of what any given person is able to do or not do and making sure that we are it. It's especially crucial for people that have certain impairments to have accessible software at their disposal. But it is also important for just everybody in general.

0:05:18 - (Lindsay): I mean, part of accessibility is the visual aspect. It's the auditory aspect. It's again, motor control, it's cognitive. It's all these different things that just make up what we can do as people and making sure that we're providing different ways for people to use websites in a way that works best for them. So that we're not, you know, prohibiting our content from anybody. It's, it's, it should be accessible, it should be available, it should be able to use by any given person who happens to come to our website or product or whatever.

0:05:50 - (Matt): Yeah, it makes me think of if you put it in sort of like real world scenarios, not that the web isn't real world, but in more of a concrete sense, if people would understand, like if you had a town square but there were no wheelchair ramps as an example, then certain people can't access certain parts of a public space. And so, you know, given that the web is public, if someone shows up to your storefront, you want to be able to get, you want to be able to make that accessible to as many people as you can and remove the barriers. Right. So that's always how I kind of tend to think about it because I think, you know, obviously we all can sort of take things for granted. Like you don't think about if you have an, an ability.

0:06:43 - (Matt): You're not necessarily top of mind thinking about, oh, maybe someone else is having a hard time with this, or they have a little bit of a limitation and might need a little bit of scaffolding or help in order to access information. So that's kind of like how, how I think of it.

0:07:00 - (Lindsay): Yeah. And that the, I love the, the wheelchair ramp example, I forget what they call them, but like the thresholds at curbs where they're at the level of the road so that you can move wheeled objects up them. There's a couple things that people don't think about when they think about those examples. One of which is that while maybe initially pushed for by people that need access because they are in wheelchairs or they do have limited mobility of some port of some sort, maybe they're using a walker or cane or anything like that.

0:07:31 - (Lindsay): It also benefits all of the people that have temporary limitations on their ability. So people that are moving strollers, like any, any parent who is pushing a child in a stroller, it helps those people. It also helps, you know, if you're pushing a shopping cart, if you're moving a hand truck or a dolly with heavy packages on it, like all of these things, then that ramp at that threshold on a sidewalk helps.

0:07:58 - (Lindsay): And then another thing that a lot of people don't think about is we take the sidewalk itself for granted. But that is also an accessible development. Like that is part of the accessibility of that street. It allows anybody like it, it just allows walking so that you're not, you Know, in the middle of traffic or anything like that that allows you to have access to those roads for walking just as a. The most foundational level.

0:08:22 - (Lindsay): And then the ramp is just a way to ensure that you're not limiting the access to certain people or people that can do certain things or can't do certain things. You're ensuring that the most people, as many people as possible, can use that sidewalk now and can not have to walk or travel in traffic. And that's. That's. The things that we take for granted, I think, are especially important because they are still accessibility. We don't often think of them, but they are.

0:08:52 - (Matt): So this makes me think that in concrete, real world, again, you know, examples on a sidewalk or whatever, there are actual official laws for this, right? Like, like space. Public spaces need to be created in a way that they're accessible to as many people as possible. Does that apply on the web as well? Are there laws related to that?

0:09:17 - (Lindsay): Yeah, there are, and it can depend on industry. But in general, if you're doing business in the States, in the United States, the Department of justice within the last few years actually recognize that the ada, the American Disabilities act, does apply to websites as well. So there is a legal obligation to do that. There is definitely legislation that has come up, you know, in the terms of lawsuits with worth of, or worth millions of dollars, where people have sued different businesses because they can't access all of the content on a website that they might need to.

0:09:54 - (Lindsay): And especially there was a huge. This has been the trend for a long time, but it was especially accelerated during COVID and moving everything remote, moving everything online. Just such an increasing number of goods and services are only accessible online now. So if people can't access those, that's a big problem because they might not have another way to get a very essential service or something that they absolutely need.

0:10:24 - (Lindsay): So it's absolutely like a legal requirement in the United States, at least, that, that you have to make sure that people can. Can use the content that you're putting online.

0:10:34 - (Matt): As a creator, you know, somebody who's making social media posts or publishing blogs and things like that, for myself, I engage with this a little bit. You know, like, if there's an image that I put on, you know, some media, I go in and I put the alt text on there, you know, describing what the image is so that somebody who maybe has low vision can get an auditory thing explaining what is it they're engaging on the site.

0:11:01 - (Matt): So that's a little bit limited as far as how much I Engage that. But how do Web Awesome's web components simplify accessibility issues for folks, One of.

0:11:14 - (Lindsay): The big things that we love about web components and why we've kind of invested so heavily on that kind of native browser set of technologies, is that it helps make things as easy to use as native HTML is. So the whole goal of Web Awesome's web components is to make sure that you can use these components in the same way that you know how to use HTML. And a big part of that is actually ensuring that like HTML, these things are as accessible as they can be out of the box.

0:11:51 - (Lindsay): So in the same way that you can just drop an HTML, you know, an input on your in into your HTML file, you should be able to drop a Web awesome component into your HTML file and expect that. Expect that you don't have to build in accessibility on top of that component. Of course, with anything, it's not just the accessibility of the individual building blocks that matters. It is also how you assemble them.

0:12:16 - (Lindsay): But one of the things that Web awesome is going to be offering in Web Awesome Pro is what we call patterns, which are assemblies or different compositions of Web awesome components combined with native HTML elements that we do test and vet for accessibility already. So it makes it just a little, you know, the components are accessible out of the box and we do some work to make sure that that happens.

0:12:41 - (Lindsay): And then on top of that, we're going to be offering patterns which are collections of those, which we're also going to make sure is accessible right out of the box. Just so, just making sure that, you know, all of our components and their usage in any of our patterns can be operated by a keyboard. Making sure that they all have, like, any interactive elements have a clear, consistent, like, focus state.

0:13:05 - (Lindsay): Making sure that we provide the right hooks into our components so that you can very easily add that alternative presentation of content like alt text with images, like it goes for. Also making sure you can easily add labels to inputs, which can be very important. Making sure that you can add kind of an alternative label for like, icons and things like that, just to make sure that all these things are built in and also easy to use and customized so that you don't have to spend as much effort investing in making those building blocks accessible.

0:13:39 - (Lindsay): We're trying to do as much of that as we can for any developer that's using Web Awesome.

0:13:44 - (Matt): Okay. Yeah. And so there's a process of testing and refining the components to make sure that they're going to meet accessibility standards. And can you tell me how does that how's that related to wcag? I actually don't know what that acronym means.

0:14:03 - (Lindsay): A little bit, yeah. WCAG is the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. It is essentially the standard that's written up by the Web Accessibility Institute, which is part of the W3 consortium. And it's just a set of guidelines that people are encouraged to conform to that ensure that websites are accessible to anybody. So it covers the things like, you know, it covers color contrast, providing text alternatives, providing keyboard operation, providing all of these different things to make sure that content is perceivable by as many people on the web as possible, that it's understandable that it's operable, that it just works for, for any number of people on the web.

0:14:54 - (Lindsay): The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are like our primary guidelines as authors of different web development tools to make sure that we can help developers meet exactly those guidelines. In a lot of cases, depending on the industry, like, those are very explicitly enforced. I know there is kind of a companion to WCAG known as Section 508, which is the US government's basically Enfor mechanism for those guidelines.

0:15:26 - (Lindsay): And it's, it's. We, we take them to heart. Like, it's the, the guidelines that we have available to us. We're not trying to make up our own accessibility requirements. Of course, like any set of guidelines, they might have some flaws which we'll try to help people work around, or maybe we can layer in extra accessibility on top of those just to make sure it's. It actually works for people. Because in some cases, you know, the way users behaviors change, their user behaviors tend to change, and how people with different abilities interact with the web might change. So you might, down the road have different recommendations, or we might know more now than when those recommendations were written. So as much as possible, we do try to meet those guidelines and also improve upon them in ways that we're not breaking them explicitly.

0:16:14 - (Lindsay): So that's pretty important to us. And we use that. We rely on those guidelines pretty heavily to make sure that we're doing what we can to make sure that everybody else can do even more to make websites accessible.

0:16:32 - (Matt): So are there any challenges that designers might face when they're trying to balance the visual appeal and look of a site and the concerns of accessibility?

0:16:44 - (Lindsay): Yes. The biggest one, and this is kind of facetious, but I got to say it anyway, is a designer's own bias can get in the way of that. I've often been asked in different positions or jobs like, how can we expect websites to look good or distinct from each Other, if we're focused so much on accessibility, won't that make everything look the same? Why can't we do these things that set us apart? You know, any number of related questions, but often the cases, if your visual design isn't accessible, then forgive me for saying this, it might not be very good.

0:17:24 - (Lindsay): Like usability and visual appeal. Absolutely. Go hand in hand. These are, these are, yeah, you can't really have, well, you can have one without the other, but there's a lot of overlap between them. A lot of what will make a visual design successful and appealing is also making sure that it's very like super usable under the hood too.

0:17:47 - (Matt): Right.

0:17:47 - (Lindsay): And there are, there are, there are plenty of ways to express your own unique style as a designer or brand without making your product harder to use for people. But thinking about like specific actual, like concrete obstacles that, that designers will have to balance visual appeal and making sure their content is accessible. Text size and color contrast are two very big parts of that that, you know, you need to know a little bit about accessibility to understand why those are important, to understand why you shouldn't do certain things.

0:18:26 - (Lindsay): I know, like with text, text size, for example, there's a big trend seemingly of this very small, like body copy and very large headings. I've noticed that on a lot of websites because, you know, the text just, you know, it looks kind of nice and when it's especially in contrast with like your really large or bold headings that, that can cause a nice, you know, a nice tension between those two types of text.

0:18:53 - (Lindsay): So that's fine. But if most of your content is tiny, nobody really wants to spend the energy to read that. Like, like we can't take for granted that we don't have to be the ones as designers that, that are reading all of this content. So it's not just about making it look good, it's about making it usable too. So text that is really tiny has its, has its place, it has its role. It can absolutely contribute to usability when it's used conscientiously and in the right ways.

0:19:24 - (Lindsay): But in general, like things like that, you shouldn't be having such small text everywhere on the website. And for goodness sake, at least if you are make sure that when a user is in a browser and they zoom in, that the text actually scales accordingly. We've actually just ran into a bug with this in Web awesome, which we're absolutely going to fix, but making sure that users that might not be able to read that text super well, or it's just not comfortable for them to read text that's that small that you at least are not doing anything, you're not implementing it in such a way that they can't use the built in browser and system tools to kind of adapt that to their own needs, make that text larger for their own needs.

0:20:05 - (Matt): I'm remembering something you said at the beginning of this part of the conversation is, well, how, how can we stand out? Like, isn't this going to make things sort of vanilla and uninteresting? This sort of gets to the heart of design in general. Right. If I sit in a brand new car and I don't know where the ignition switch is, it might be very novel and interesting the way that the design is done, but it's not. If it's not intuitive and if, if it's not usable, then the designer hasn't really done their job.

0:20:33 - (Matt): If the design is overall intuitive and it makes sense and the barriers are gone for someone to get the information that they need, like, everybody wins, right?

0:20:45 - (Lindsay): Yeah. And just because, you know, somebody with absolutely perfect, flawless abilities can work around something that's maybe a little bit more difficult, that you sacrificed the usability for the visual appeal, it doesn't mean that they should have to work around it too. Like, right, it's, it's definitely a balance, but the core of design is designing for others. You're not designing for yourself. Who cares if you think it looks good? If other people can't use it and consume it, that doesn't matter. Like, especially when it comes to functional design concerns like designing websites and things like that. It's not an art project.

0:21:21 - (Lindsay): I mean, part of it can be, and I don't want to belittle like that kind of exploration and the fun kind of presentation side of it, but the first and foremost concern is to make sure that things are actually working for people and that people can use them and to just talk about the, the color contrast aspect of this. That's, that's also a thing that I think a lot of designers would prefer if things were a little bit more subtle, if like the text blended into the background a little bit. Because there is something nice and appealing about that kind of softness if you're just looking at it. But if you're actually trying to like consume that information, you might want to make sure that your text is a little bit darker from your background so that one, people with again, like maybe perfect visual sight abilities don't have to work any harder to consume that information, and two, so that people that might have Some visual impairments can actually read and consume that information, period. Like, you might be making things harder for some people and then impossible for others. And that's just not what you want to do as a designer. Right. Like that's the whole goal is to be empathetic, like to make sure that we're making things available and usable to again, just as many people as we possibly can.

0:22:39 - (Matt): Yeah. So aside from say like text contrast and things like that, as far as best practices go for designers, do you have practical advice for folks in terms of building accessible forms, navigation or like a dynamic elements?

0:22:56 - (Lindsay): Yeah, and this is a little, this my favorite advice is actually focused a little bit less on designers and more so on developers or anybody that's working with HTML, which that could be a designer or a developer or a content creator. Like any number of people that are working with HTML is use HTML. That's like the simplest piece of advice I can give anybody because the people that have written the HTML specification, the people that work to create this language, built all these things so that they can be usable through as many different input mechanisms as possible, through as many different presentations as possible.

0:23:38 - (Lindsay): They've put the work into accessibility into your standard native HTML elements, if those are available and they fit the specific need that you're looking to address. Absolutely. Just use HTML. Now, of course, if you are going to build like if you have a very specific need for a particular control on a page and you do need to build it from scratch and kind of build your own control, that just means that you have to put in just as much work as the people that created HTML have to make that thing accessible to. So making sure that it has the right semantics that you need through aria, which stands for Accessible Rich Internet Applications, I believe through aria, that express whatever that controls, you know, name, role, state and properties might be so that you know, whether you're looking at it on a screen, whether you're using a keyboard to operate it, whether you're using a screen reader to actually read the content of that control aloud to you, whether you're using, you know, like a speech control or any, any different number of ways that you can interact with website that that control is usable regardless of how people might be coming in to use it.

0:24:58 - (Lindsay): And that also goes along with that can contribute to designers who might be designing websites too, to make sure that you're not reinventing the wheel. There is, there's a thing called Jacob's Law when it comes to, to product design in general. That is most or users are spending most of their time on other websites. So they're already familiar with the patterns that exist throughout the web. Originality can actually be a blocker for usability. So just, you know, don't be afraid to recycle some ideas from other sites to just use what's already out there, because that is generally going to be what is most familiar to users, what is usable, what is accessible. So just not reinventing the wheel, I think for both designers and developers, is just a good way to.

0:25:45 - (Lindsay): To start that process of ensuring accessibility.

0:25:53 - (Matt): Are there specific tools that you have in mind that would be a good thing for developers to have in their accessibility toolbox?

0:26:02 - (Lindsay): Yeah. So the WAI Authoring Practices Guide, it's the Web Accessibility Institute's ARIA recommendations. If you're building your own components, that is something that we reference a lot at Web. Awesome. Because we are building our own components. We are trying to do a lot of that heavy lifting of accessibility for these new controls that we're building and making available to folks that are building websites.

0:26:30 - (Lindsay): That is a huge help. It tells you essentially what kind of semantic meaning you should build into each individual control. And it gives you kind of a blueprint for how to do that yourself, which is really helpful. And then for more general, just knowledge about accessibility, which half the time that's, that's the. That's the biggest obstacle. I think it's just knowing why accessibility is important and having just the mindset that it's not just you.

0:27:01 - (Lindsay): If you happen to be using a mouse and a screen, like a visual display, it's not just you that's going to be using your website. It's any number of people that might not have access to a mouse, that might not be using a mouse. They might be on a phone. Like there's any number of different ways that people could be experiencing your content. So that empathy is important. And some of the good resources for that, just for building awareness and understanding of accessibility are WebAIM, which is they have a great contrast check, color contrast checker that I happen to use a lot. And they also do a lot of research on like screen reader and browser pairings. What are people's favorites. And just tons of cool surveys regarding accessibility, which I love to see them come out with.

0:27:43 - (Lindsay): There's also the A11Y project. A11Y is, is between A and Y and accessibility. There's 11 characters. So that's where A11Y comes from. It's kind of a shortcut. I forget the exact name for that word. But the A11Y project is a good one again, just for building awareness. Lots of articles about why certain things matter, different trends, all that kind of good stuff. And then the Nielsen Norman Group also has, like, a section or a study guide on accessibility and inclusivity in web design. So that's really cool to look at, too.

0:28:19 - (Matt): It's a really good reminder for me, you know, like, you're saying, start with empathy and know that there are people out there with different. Different abilities. And it may not be top of mind all the time. You know, even when I'm publishing stuff on our blog or there have been times when I've just, like, dropped a transcript in there, but I. I was in a hurry to sort of get it published, but I didn't format the transcript. And it makes me think if you saw somebody do a shoddy job building a wheelchair ramp, and it actually wasn't smooth, it was still difficult to get up onto the sidewalk.

0:28:55 - (Lindsay): Yeah.

0:28:56 - (Matt): You know, people be like, who's the clown that did that? Like. Like, I can't get up.

0:29:01 - (Lindsay): Never used a wheelchair before.

0:29:03 - (Matt): Yeah, exactly.

0:29:04 - (Lindsay): Clearly have no empathy for my. Yeah, exactly.

0:29:07 - (Matt): Yeah. And so it's interesting that, like, you know, we talk about the web. It can. It can seem so sort of like, ethereal and almost abstract, but it's really not. Like, we also want to be mindful of folks that need to lean on these other things in order to get the information that they're looking for.

0:29:26 - (Lindsay): Well, and there's tons. A lot of people think about accessibility. Just one of the other misconceptions is that it's a permanent impairment. Like, if you're dealing, if somebody has, you know, maybe somewhat unique needs for what a website, how a website should be able to operate, that it's some kind of, like, permanent thing, that it is that specific group of users that is affected by that impairment that we need to adapt our software for. And that's absolutely not true.

0:29:52 - (Lindsay): Any number of, like, a good way to empathize with people. Even if we ourselves might not be, you know, in a. In a wheelchair, we might not be hard of hearing. We might not have, like, things like Parkinson's disease, like, anything that can affect or just change what your abilities are as a person, there are situational things that we can think to. Like, one of my favorites when I talk to college students about this is if you've ever sat in, like, the common room of your college campus, where they generally have these big windows and the sun's coming in and you're working on your laptop, and you have your laptop brightness all the way up, but you still can't see a doggone thing on your screen because it's just. You've got so much light and brightness coming in from that big, you know, that big window your. On your.

0:30:43 - (Lindsay): In that college building. It's like that's where color contrast comes into play. It's like you might not. You might have perfect 2020 vision or better. Doesn't matter. Because in that situation, you would benefit from having a little bit of extra color contrast or if you've ever been forced to, to use a phone to do something on a website, which increasingly now most more and more people only have access to the Internet through their smartphones. They don't necessarily have a desktop computer or even a laptop that they use to access websites.

0:31:15 - (Lindsay): But you know how frustrating that can be sometimes when people haven't considered. When the designer or developer hasn't considered responsive web design, where you have to, like, scroll and pinch and your hands get tired trying to move around this website? Like, that's. That's a real concern that we can all kind of empathize with. We've all kind of experienced. It's not just, oh, I, you know, have this permanent impairment that I have to work around. It's like, no, everybody experiences these.

0:31:40 - (Lindsay): These things. And one of the key ones that I like to think about is if any of us are lucky, we're gonna get old someday. And aging is absolutely something that will impair your abilities in some way, whether it's cognitive, which is very common, might be fine motor control. It's a little bit harder to use a mouse, which is a very precise pointing device. So you have to start using your keyboard to navigate websites, any number of things.

0:32:08 - (Lindsay): We will all, you know, encounter those. Those kind of situations someday. Just. It's important.

0:32:15 - (Matt): Yep, yep. 100%. Well, Lindsay, I appreciate you taking some time today. You know, there's. We talked beforehand. There's a lot of stuff that we wanted to cover, and sometimes we're a little bit limited on time, so maybe we can talk about it again. But thank you so much for taking some time to talk about accessibility today.

0:32:33 - (Lindsay): Yeah, thanks, Matt. This is awesome.

0:32:34 - (Matt): Yeah. Thanks to Lindsey for coming on Podcast awesome today to walk us through why accessibility on the web is so important. As usual, Podcast awesome was produced and edited by me, Matt Johnson. The video versions of the podcast, we get a little extra helping hand from Mr. Isaac Chase. We're thankful for him. The Podcast awesome theme song was composed by Ronnie Martin. The music interstitials were done by. By Zach Malm.

0:33:03 - (Matt): Audio mastering was done by Chris Enns at Lemon Productions.