A More Complete Beast
Strategies for driving the needle forward on your life.
A More Complete Beast
Betting Big on Digital Entrepreneurship: Immanuel Joy's Journey in startup accelerators, international banking and cultural finance
Ever wondered what it takes to make it in the world of digital entrepreneurship? Well, look no further, as we get the inside scoop from Immanuel Joy, a digital entrepreneur who's been there, done that, and lived to tell the tale. Immanuel opens up about his experiences navigating startup accelerator programs and venture capital, using Y Combinator as a case study. He shares intriguing insights into the world of asymmetric betting, the art of refining pitches, and the value of networking in securing investments.
The conversation takes an interesting turn as we venture into the underbelly of the Latin American banking systems. Immanuel's company, Relampago, is at the forefront of bridging the divide between traditional banking and app banking. As we hear about his experiences in Colombia and the disparities in banking access, particularly for the underprivileged and gig workers, we delve into the potential of smart contracts and peer-to-peer loans as game-changers in the banking landscape.
But the conversation doesn't stop there. We traverse the contours of Immanuel's personal journey and the influence of his family's immigration from India due to religious violence. As he shares his experiences living in Brazil and the stark contrasts he witnessed in living conditions in different countries, we engage in a thought-provoking discussion about international influence, cultural differences, and the challenges in implementing the American model abroad. So, gear up for an enlightening conversation that promises to leave you with a wealth of knowledge on digital entrepreneurship, international banking, and the fascinating intersection of culture and finance.
This is a more complete beast podcast where we discover and distill strategies to drive the needle forward on your life. Today we're sitting across from Emmanuel Joy, who is a digital entrepreneur and digital nomad. We cover a lot of ground in this podcast. We talk about finding your niche, discovering an area that might actually need a problem solved that doesn't exist in your area, as well as covering all things cultural all around the world. But always, if you learn something in this podcast, do me a favor, leave a five star review, follow this podcast and we're publishing this one on YouTube. So if you want to see the video version, go on YouTube, search a more complete beast and make sure you like the video and subscribe there. Now let's get into it. How long are you in town for? You said you have to go up to New York.
Speaker 2:On Saturday. So on Saturday I leave to New York for two months and then back to South America.
Speaker 1:Okay, in New York you're looking for. You, said VC, no, no so they already missed it.
Speaker 2:We're part of an accelerator, so basically what that means is are you familiar with Y Combinator?
Speaker 1:Explain that. What's that Y Combinator?
Speaker 2:you said so it's basically like the goal of an accelerator is they grab an early stage company. So in lots of companies apply and they're like, okay, this team looks good, this idea looks good, their product is already kind of out there. Okay, now we're going to invest in this company. So it's a large amount. So Y Combinator, it's like 500K. If you get selected, you get 500K, for us it's 250. But basically they give you that amount of cash and they say at a certain valuation, and they say, hey, okay, you're going to have all the like their investors, right, they're going to be like we're going to help you for two months. So basically, any marketing help you need, okay, we want to redesign your business proposal. Like, if it needs help, you're going to pitch to us every week to you know, because they want their money back.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, so it's like a.
Speaker 1:They're an investor. They want to return Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's like a two month program where every day you're in classes, you know, listening to, like people are actively coming and being like okay, how do I help you guys? Like, what do you guys need now? Okay, like, do you need this connection, do you need that one? Like, so that's. It really takes a company to the next, the next level, because now you're being backed by actual, you know, big VCs.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, so it's basically like entrepreneur school.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, that's exactly what it is Like if you look at all these companies Airbnb, you know, google, dropbox, like, whatever they all like their first stage was an accelerator. They go to an accelerator. You get a certain amount of capital at you know several million in valuation, like we're valued at several million, and then using that, using that that won the money but also the like that wealth of you know concentrated like knowledge and you know networking and all this sort of thing. Like then, over the next year, we want to see product market fit. We want to see, you know, tons of users in the app engagement and then you want to take it to seed. So seed is like the check sizes get bigger. So like, okay, in a year I'll go back and be like, okay, our app, the real help we go app has, you know, 100,000 users. We're doing you know four million a month in volume.
Speaker 2:We want to expand to not just Columbia. We want to go. We want to expand to Argentina. When I expand to Brazil, we have this other part of our platform. You know we have these other ideas Now. Like we want a $5 million check. So then, like, the bigger, you know the same VCs that you talk to like an accelerator, they'll be like, okay, here's my connection over here. Like you'll be in constant conversation with these guys, right, Like how are you guys doing? Okay, like let's, let's see, we can give you the, you know the four or five million. Like how's your company doing now? So that's the, that's the. That's like seed right. Um, I was just like walking through the whole the stages.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so Y Combinator is the first step. That's when you comment Y Combinator is the first step, you have some, some proof of concept. Oh, yeah, exactly, and but you need the connections, you need some liquid to get it to the next level and it's like a class they're teaching the people involved in it. So, would you and your partners go yeah?
Speaker 2:everyone's required to go. It's like a Monday through Friday, you know, 10 hours a day, basically like you're just, whether it's like you're working, like you're, this is your full time job, like there's no, they don't even, they don't let you have a secondary job, right, so there's, this is like all you're going to do and you're going to have all the research to go do it. So they're saying, hey, we're taking a bet. So for our accelerator um, I actually can't say the name because we have the NDA till the end of this year yeah, but uh, basically, out of hundreds of companies, they picked eight, so eight companies, each one, uh, each one is like a team of two or three people and so that's, like you know, 20, 25 people in total.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, just just team, the, the, the, the founders, like 20, 25 founders, and all these like the, you know the people, the investors, the, their, their marketing organizations, like, uh, for instance, uh, I did, for yesterday we got on a call with a guy who's um, he ran the marketing organization for Coca-Cola, pepsi, like all these big agencies, and he was like, okay, like we want to re, we want to design a story for you guys, so we're going to help you convey a story in less than 45 seconds to anyone. And then you know, basically, when I sit down with him, like every week, to try to redefine, you know, refine that story. But this is what they do, right, this accelerates to, to accelerate you.
Speaker 1:Right Makes sense, and if it shows promising growth, that's when you start to get some some. What individual venture capitalists? Or is it still part of that accelerator?
Speaker 2:So what really like an accelerator of EC firm is is just like you got a bunch of rich guys, right. Like, so you got you know some guy who's worth 30 million and the guy's worth 100 million or whatever. And then you just say, hey, like I have so much money, I don't know what to do with it, right? So here I'm going to make a firm and you guys go find some companies that you think are really promising and then deal with, like make them pitch a couple of times, make them present and, you know, if it's good enough, accept them to my VC fund, and then they'll get a certain amount of money, like that's what a VC firm is, right? So it's just like, like, depending on the firm, like there's varying, varying levels.
Speaker 2:So, for instance, y Combinator is founded by the chat GPT guy, sam Altman, right, and so he's boatload of money and he's like, okay, we need to find, like we're going to find the next unicorn, right? So we're going to invest in you know 400 companies that's the Y Combinator strategy, right? 400 companies, like every year or something like that, right, every quarter, I think, and then one of them is going to be wildly successful and we'll get all. We'll get all our money back right. The other, it doesn't matter if, like, 90% fail. If we just get 10% that are successful, like we get it all back right. So that's the strategy with them, same thing with our accelerator.
Speaker 1:So they're taking asymmetric bets. What they're doing is for them, that's a small amount of money, and they're willing to spread that risk over a large amount of companies because when a home run is hit, they make it back 100%.
Speaker 2:Exactly Like, for instance, right now we have several million in valuation. So let's say I won't I don't know exactly the exact number because we can't but like it's between, it's between three and five. So let's say, let's say it's five, right, if this is on the pre-seed stage, that's us like, right before the product is actually in the market. You know, maybe it is in the market but it has some initial traction. That's kind of where we are now. Let's say, in a year from now we have you know, a certain, a couple million in volume every month, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:We can go back and say, hey, okay, I want, you know, we're going to ask for $3 million, a check for $3 million for maybe you know, 20% of the company. So what is that? $15 million valuation in total, right? So the accelerator that they invested $250k at $5 million, right. And now they're going to get it back for the valuation now $15 million, right? So if we were to sell the company, we found some buyer and we agreed on, you know, $15 million valuation. That makes sense, that's, you know, we're going to buy you for $15 million. That accelerator would get three times the amount of money they put in, right?
Speaker 1:Makes sense. So they're investing for, for appreciation of the company, not for cash flow. So they're not taking, like, let's say, you make X amount off of every transaction. They're not worried so much about that. They're worried about the final sale to really, you know, 3x, 10x, 100x, their initial investment, yep.
Speaker 2:Ideally, like they want a unicorn, right, right. It's like if you're a $100 million company, let's say you're a billion dollar company, a billion dollar valuation, if they invest at you at $5 million, that's, you know what are we? $200x, $200x? Yeah, that's, that's ridiculous. Like that's, that's ideally what they're with Y Comner I think it was. Actually it was Y Comner. It was like Sequoia. Sequoia is a huge like VC firm, but they, for instance, they put $100K in Google in the beginning and then I think the check size at the end was $600 million.
Speaker 2:That's crazy, yeah, so that's, that's the goal, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, what made you? What do you think made them pick your company to be part of this accelerator, like, what about? It is, I guess, proprietary, or the potential niche that it can really exploit.
Speaker 2:So it's a, it's a couple things. So VCs in general are kind of looking for, like we've. We've done a lot of failed pitches, so we've pitched a lot of VC firms and I mean like, oh, you know, your product isn't like, isn't, you know, developed yet, or you know, like I think the competition can, you know, can kill this product pretty easily. But basically you learn from all those experiences and you know you do it like 10, 15 times, you fail like 10, 15 times and eventually you get like, okay, like everyone asks this question, what's her answer?
Speaker 2:Right, everyone asks about the competition question why is you know, why is Rolampica different from the other one? We need to have a concise, concrete answer that takes like two minutes and then boom, like every single question that someone could ask, like we need to know exactly what to say. Right, and it's just a refinement process. And eventually we got to the place where we could, you know, coming from at the stage where now, the early stage, we have up one, a product to a market, like an, an, like an obvious market to target and also like a sense of what our value at is, like what are, what are. Our unique value at is over any other competitor and we can easily and concisely deliver those that message right, so that you know, once you get to there, like you're going to find. In my opinion, you're going to find someone. If you can fit all those three categories, you're going to find someone who will take it better.
Speaker 1:And that's that concise manner, talking to somebody that maybe doesn't understand it as well. I was reading over the the Yahoo Finance article you sent, that you guys are in and I understand you work with strike in some capacity. So, first off, I have to ask what does strike do? And second off, if you had to explain to me what your company does, what would that be?
Speaker 2:Yeah, our company name is Rolampico, right, rolampico means lightning in Spanish, okay, and so there's a couple different. We have several offerings, right? So the Yahoo Finance article wasn't in particular about the Rolampico app. It was about some I'll get to. It was about a separate offering, but basically I want to put this out.
Speaker 2:So what we do in general is we offer instant payments to basically companies like B2B companies in the US. So we have an API platform that offers, like, if you, if you wanted to make instant payments for something to Mexico, right, like, maybe you need a, you had a contractor that you hired and you wanted to pay that guy, right, what you'll notice, like the first thing you'll try to do is like, oh, okay, let me go on. You know transfer wise, or maybe you know remitly or a re or something like that, and you'll try to make a payment. And then a number of things will happen. Right, a lot of those services they'll say you know the market themselves is like oh, the person gets their money in 10 minutes, or they, you know something, or maybe it's the same business day, or something like that. Right, that's at a low cost. And a lot of times what happens is they don't actually fulfill that promise or they'll do something like, for instance, the other day we had to pay our lawyers in Colombia. We went to TransferWise. Transferwise says the money will be delivered in seconds to their bank account. So then we go on TransferWise and we try to pay our lawyer or a firm who have a bank in Colombia Bank of Colombia is the biggest bank in Colombia and we try to make that payment and then the payment comes back rejected and says, hey, they need to have a particular flag, like an option, set in their particular account within Bank of Colombia to actually receive the payment. And we're like ah, come on, and they only do it to one bank, so just Bank of Colombia, not any other banks. So, like, there's these services. The current existing services to send money to Latin America are like yeah, we'll deliver on our promise if, if, if, if, if, like, if you, if you have a bunch of criteria and you know, plus a bunch of qualifications, that sort of thing, right? So basically, we wanted to create a seamless payments experience for anyone and we handle all the lat times and so it doesn't matter what bank you send to, it doesn't matter what sort of user they are or whatever, like they're just going to get the money instantly.
Speaker 2:So with with Strike, what we do is any strike does a lot of different things Like they, they, they're involved in, um, they have like a global extend money, like instant payments layer. They also have, uh, they do things with like a Bitcoin and that sort of thing. For us, like all, all we do is provide any strike user with the ability to send money to Mexico instantly. So that's like using our API product and then they're. They're just one of our clients. We have several other clients, but that's what we do in general. We just basically any of in in in Mexico or Argentina. Right now, we can send money instantly to, to, to, basically for any business.
Speaker 2:So you skip the middle man skip the middle man and also we are like we are directly integrated with, um, the domestic payment rails in all these countries, so in the individual countries themselves. There's like a process to actually work with Mexico. Like the banking system is called SPA and that's like instance, so if you were to send money from your you know uh, bank of Mexico to a a, a, a, a steca bank, like the money would arrive instantly domestically, but internationally that it's not instant right. So like we are basically like bridging that entire, uh, that entire flow that way for you know you to send money to, to whoever, or you to pay someone or whatever. Basically it happens is how is it safe?
Speaker 1:Because, for instance, it's easy. The structure of banking makes me feel secure, right, makes everybody feel secure. That's why we use them, that's why we put money in our banks, even though with fractional reserve banking it's not even there. But there is a security that comes with an established structure that has been here for time and memorial. So how is it that you're able to do this? Skip them, skip the middleman, and still provide safety to the customer?
Speaker 2:Uh, can you? Okay? So, when you say safety, so okay, so, we do use the banking rails, right, we're not skipping the banking rails by any, by any means at all, right, okay, so, like, the end customer has a bank account, it's just, it's just that, let me, let me, let me put it this way Okay, I'll use Columbia as an example. Right, okay, so in the U? S, in the U? S, we have, everyone has a bank account, right, you know, you have, you have, I have Chase, you have, maybe I have Bank of America or Wells Fargo or something, right, everyone is banked. Right, yes, so in Latin America, that's not true? So, if you're in Mexico, over 60% of people don't have a bank account. So, like, the 40% will have a traditional bank.
Speaker 2:The rest of the people use cash, right, in Columbia and I want to use Columbia as an example because that's where we really have a like, a unique value add, and this is really illustrates what the product does. So in Columbia, it's sort of the same thing 40% of people have traditional bank accounts, but the other 60% have basically apps, banking apps called like, like WeChat, if you're familiar with China, right, so they have one of two apps like. One of them is called Neki, one of them is called Davi Plata, and these are like it's like an app where you can go create a bank account without ever sending it to a bank. So you just get an app. You know you, just you. Now you have a bank account, you open account there, right? And then you can go to a grocery store, deposit some money. It shows up in your bank account. You can go to any store and just pay with a QR code with your Neki app.
Speaker 2:So, basically, like all these people are, they have bank accounts, but they're not the traditional ones, right? So if you go on TransferWise and try to send money, you can't actually send money to those people. They have to have a real bank account, right? So it's not like we didn't skip the banking system. To be clear, right, we brought, we created infrastructure that integrated those neo banks with the traditional banking system. So now an international person right In Colombia itself, those people who have Neki can go pay a person who has a regular bank at Columbia, or they can pay a person who has a regular WVN, but me, from my chase, I can't pay someone who has a Neki. I can only pay someone who has a traditional bank account. So we basically create infrastructure that bridge the layer between these. They're called neo banks. They're all everywhere in South America with the traditional banking system there and then integrated that with the international payments.
Speaker 1:Perfect. So basically, you are the connection between traditional banking and these, exactly these app bank accounts, whatever they're called, yep.
Speaker 2:And this gives me, if you mind, I'll talk about like the actual product that we have. So Rilampa goes the name of the company, and our whole idea was when I was inso about two years ago well, maybe three years ago now like COVID was starting, so everything got locked down and that sort of thing, and I was like, okay, like I was in Boston, I was living there and Boston was like a ghost town. I was like, okay, I need to get out of here. I don't want to go home and live with the family, I want to go somewhere else. Where can I go? For relatively cheap and I looked at it for relatively cheap and also like a country that doesn't have entry COVID restrictions right, because every country in the world was like Locked down man Exactly.
Speaker 2:So I looked and I was like, huh, okay, el Salvador was one of them and Colombia was the other one. And I was like, huh, you know, I speak Spanish, I've never been to South America, let me go, just book a flight over there and see what's up, right? So I booked the flight and to Colombia, went to Bogota and about. Basically, I just started just hanging out. You know just where I was working. I was working for. Who was I working for? I was working for, I think it was.
Speaker 2:I was a contractor at Facebook at the time as an engineer, but I don't remember. It was a long time ago, but essentially, like, I was there, I was working remotely, you know, having a good time. And then I started noticing that if I wanted to make a payment, basically like if I wanted to just buy some chicken at the local corner store, like you know, you know I was like pay anyone. Like if, like here, like we have Venmo right, like someone buys me some drinks, and I'm like, okay, how do I pay this guy? You know, like for anything, right, it was just a horrible process. I'd be like, okay, do I really need to go to Western Union to send this?
Speaker 1:guy Like do I?
Speaker 2:have Venmo payment for $10? Or I'd try to get on TransferWise or I'd get on you know remitly and be like shit, okay, like he doesn't have the correct bank account to be able to receive this payment. So then I started noticing this problem everywhere and you know other people that I talked to, like especially foreigners right, because they would have a foreign bank account and we're trying to like maybe some expats, maybe some tourists constantly have this problem. And I said, hey, you know, I had I come from engineering background, software engineering background, and basically I had two friends that also they're also engineers and I was like, hey, like can we, can we think of a solution to this problem? Can we basically build that infrastructure to connect these neo banks, these Nekis, these Dawey Pladas in Colombia with like regular infrastructure so I can actually pay people?
Speaker 2:And basically this was about like three years ago, initially, like when I started noticing this whole concept fast forward. Maybe the product went through like several revisions, like initially it wasn't completely Naturally so fast forward, like maybe a year or maybe even a year and a half, to be honest, and then we kind of got the sort of infrastructure that, basically the first vision of the infrastructure that we have now. So I'd say the company started. The Rolampago idea started about a year and a half ago, but essentially during that period when I was there in Colombia and other parts of South America, I just noticed the fact that I just couldn't pay anybody and I was like, okay, let me try to fix this problem.
Speaker 1:So you found a niche in a different market. Yes, it wasn't necessarily where you were at the time in Boston. It was after you went somewhere else you were able to find hey, this is a problem that exists. I'm going to try to attack Exactly.
Speaker 2:And it's not a problem. That is, to be honest, like if you go to Colombia or Argentina or whatever. It might take you six months before you really, because you have to understand what's going on. You can't be like oh, I see a QR code, okay, whatever, that's not like a NECI QR code. I don't even know what that means. It takes a while of just talking to people, just screwing, goofing off and just having just normal conversations with people for a while before you really understand.
Speaker 2:Okay, this person, okay, why do they have a NECI account but they can't have a traditional bank account? Like, why do they prefer having this NEO bank when they could just walk into the bank and open a bank account? Or maybe what's the reason? Where's their distrust of the bank system? Or is there a deeper issue at play? There's a lot of cultural and socioeconomic issues that people face that you have to build a picture in your head, and once that picture was built for me, I was like okay, now I understand that this is a huge, not just for me. This is an issue that's gonna be a problem for a long time in Colombia. Let's tackle it.
Speaker 1:So if I went to Colombia and I wanted to buy chicken at the corner store and I pull out my American Express or whatever, that's gonna be the problem they wouldn't take it.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's my yeah exactly, and then you're solving that problem Exactly. If you have the Relonpago app, you can just pay anyone. Let's say the corner store guy has Relonpago right, all you need is phone number and you just make a payment and it's instant to his neckie, his dowie, plada, whatever.
Speaker 1:And it's as secure as banking because it's using the Rails on banking.
Speaker 2:It's not cash, right. Cash is the anonymous insecure. We are completely banked, we're completely using the banking Rails. It's just all these people that People don't even know about this problem, right, Like, oh, what do they use in Argentina? What do they use in Colombia? What do they use in Brazil, right. But now, like me, being down there kind of opened my eyes to this whole. Okay, there's millions and millions of people who use banking, but not in the way that I would think of it.
Speaker 1:That's interesting because I have never experienced that. We were just international. We were in Switzerland and it was very easy for me to pay. I just had my Visa or American Express, whatever we were using, and it was just easy to swipe. But I guess I wouldn't have that same convenience in.
Speaker 2:Colombia, or it's a constant problem Every time when I want to pay someone. It's happened so many times, not just me to friends, everyone's a common experience. For instance, in Cartagena, a lot of tourists go there for the beach and that sort of thing. If you want to get a jet ski, the guy's like, okay, it's $90, right, you pay for the tour and the jet ski and everything and you're like, okay, well, how do I pay you? He's like, oh, a Neki. And you're like okay, but I can't make a Neki. I don't have a Colombian number, but they don't know that right, to them it's just like everyone. Just A Colombian comes in and they want to get a jet ski, they pay with their Neki, easy, boom. So there's no distinction for them as a tourist. As a tourist, you have to go find the nearest ATM. That could be three blocks away Make a trip over there, get the $100 or $90 or whatever and come back and in-pace those and come back and pay them, right. So this is a constant annoying experience.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like it makes it easier for developed nations to do business with less developed nations.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly so, and not even I hate to use the word developed.
Speaker 1:I just meant.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean the banking rails are. It's more like, not even like in the sense of developed country. So, like I was a tourist in Colombia or Brazil right, I was having a tourist experience but also the majority of tourists quote unquote or expats that go back, there are actually Colombian immigrants who lived in the US and now they just like, oh, I'm going to go back home, but they have a dollar account, they have their US banking account, right, they're not going to get rid of it, and so they prefer to keep their money in dollars as opposed to in peso. When the peso is constantly deflating, right, why would you keep your money in your Colombian account? I mean, you can hold dollars, right, so they're more stable.
Speaker 2:Exactly right. But now how are they going to transfer their money in dollars to pay someone in Colombia? What they would do is they would what they normally do is they take those US dollars, transfer it to their Colombian bank account and then, from that Colombian bank account, go pay someone. So they do a wire transfer or something like that, which takes a couple of days. They have to constantly keep a balance in Colombia so they can go pay normal people. I don't know if that's making sense.
Speaker 1:It makes sense, yes, but why is it that? 60% or 40%, whatever it was, don't trust the traditional banking or they don't use it. They use this NECI account instead.
Speaker 2:Definitely it's a complicated thing, but in general, latin America has always been cash heavy. So in To be honest, it makes sense because banks have always been predatory. So banks like, if you want to make a bank account for a long time they used to be oh you need property, oh, you want to take a loan, okay, we're going to charge a ridiculous amount of interest and then there's no banking in Latin America has always been for the exclusive. Maybe the elite or upper middle class. That sort of people, the normal people who work normal gig jobs, may work in Uber or maybe they sell stuff on the street or something like that. One like they don't even know the whole digital. What is digital finance, digital banking, which is so common in the US or in Europe or something like that, or in Asia? That's not something that they have really an experience with.
Speaker 2:And what happened is about three years ago, when COVID started. Everyone was stuck in home, right at home, and the government had to pay people, subsidiaries. Every month they received a couple hundred dollars or something to keep everyone afloat right In the US. The government was doing that too. So how is the government going to pay all these people who don't have bank accounts. So income, neo banks. So basically, for this reason, you, neckis popped up the Dabiplata pop up New Bank in Brazil and it was like okay, how do we, we're going to bridge that gap?
Speaker 2:These neo banks constantly say like in their publicity oh, we're not associated with Bank of Columbia, like they are, like they're just a part of Bank of Columbia, neckis is just Bank of Columbia. But they'll say like in their publicity they're like oh yeah, we don't work with those guys, we're just here for you, the regular people, right? So they was like a bridge into people, like getting people like more comfortable with digital banking. They were able to see their government subsidies like come in every month and they're like, oh, okay, let me see how this works. And now people are like, okay, let me just open a traditional bank account because you know, I know how Neckis works, I know how you know, let me, let me like make that final step. But there's basically a two-part answer. One is the banks themselves were, you know, you know, ass holy of course.
Speaker 2:And then secondly, the lack of uh uh comfortability with uh just banking in general in London, america.
Speaker 1:Could you see this, and maybe not with your company, but I I'm just now thinking, as you're bringing this up the niche, cause I did you know I was looking into different things like smart contracts. Could you see this type of technology being used? If, if the banks are extremely predatory and it's tough for somebody to get a loan, could somebody use something like you've developed for peer to peer loans with smart contracts? Cause that seems like just when you're bringing that up, that's immediately what I went to, like we can create this secure smart contract, peer to peer. Where I make a loan to you, I say the bank is requiring that you have a $500,000 house and you know, uh, another house in the Hamptons, whereas I could just be like, okay, I just want to know that you have a job and I can charge you 5%.
Speaker 1:It seems like there's a niche there too.
Speaker 2:I think. So that's interesting, but I feel like that would work in the in the U S, right, okay, in Latin America people don't have as much, uh, um, like it's poorer, right, so there's rich people but there's not as many like people with so much disposable income to be able to give you a 500K loan, right, like, like, like, for instance, in in Columbia. Just to put in perspective, um, the average, the, I think the average salary is like $700 a month. Right, that's the average person, it's, and it's much cheaper to live. Right, you've taken Uber. It's like $3, right, and that's like a 20 minute Uber, but that's, you know, compared to an American, like $700 a month is like what? A quarter of minimum wage? Like, it's not even right, Exactly.
Speaker 2:And when you talk about that level, like you're not going to find, you know, maybe the president of Columbia makes like a 90K. You know that's which here is. You know a lot of people make 90K.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're in middle class.
Speaker 2:Exactly Right, so, but there you can live really well with with 90K Um, but, that being said, like there's going to be less opportunity for you know that that smart contract thing that you were saying right Probably would work in here, right you?
Speaker 1:know right.
Speaker 1:I wonder then, if you are able to and I'm not, I'm just shooting the shit now if you're able to transfer funds or let's say, um, I guess, transfer funds or pay somebody, if you have a US bank account to a NECI account, maybe you could also develop not saying you, but somebody could potentially develop something. Where you know internationally there can be a smart contract and something between people. You know what I mean. So you can skip that step. Use the traditional banking rails but have it so it can be more peer to peer and less through the traditional structures.
Speaker 2:No, that's that. That could be a great idea. To be honest, Cause I'm gonna take it to.
Speaker 1:Y combinator. I need 500 grand to start this no no, no, I mean, I'm just.
Speaker 2:this is like making me me think, because those people that you know, the 60% of Columbia that uses NECI right, they, getting loans is a hard, a really hard thing. Even like a small loan, like a, you know a $1,500 loan or you know something like, which is like nothing for us, right? Right, like a minimum wage, a month as a minimum wage or two months as minimum wage employee of Walmart? Right, but that like one like the bank is not going to give you a loan because they're, they're like, okay, but you, you, you you're like a gig worker, right, your gig, could? You know it starts raining and then you can't sell anything in the street. You know whether you're selling like empanadas or something like. That's like a lot of people, right? Yes, so you know it's hard for them to get loans and appear to appear, especially if it comes from the outside, could work very well.
Speaker 1:And that makes sense to me, because I'm thinking like you almost can turn yourself into a venture capitalist. You, you can be like a just a upper middle class American, make 150 a year and you're a venture capitalist down in Columbia. It makes, I mean.
Speaker 2:That's actually phenomenal. That's actually not a bad idea, bro, If you develop that.
Speaker 1:I want to be the first VC that's making loans to Columbia.
Speaker 2:No, but this is what I mean, this is what. This is exactly what I mean, like when you go, instead of like living around here, like in the US right, we don't really have a lot of problems Like we might have some problems like our, I don't know, maybe like in Lashen Netflix password.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, I don't like typing on the screen, that's not really a problem. Yeah, first world problems, yeah.
Speaker 2:First world problems, right, but when you go and you know, go to different places you can see every place has like a unique situation, right, the same problems that are in Columbia are not going to be the ones in Brazil. The ones that are in Brazil are not going to be in, you know, saudi Arabia or India or whatever. It's more like like if you have a set like you, like you just put the I just told you about new banks and you're like, oh, now I'm thinking about, you know, peer to peer loans and stuff. Right, that sort of thing is like what people don't do, right, that's the. The fewest people are going to go out there and you know, put themselves in a new culture, a new language, and try to figure things out, and then, and then the payout is big right, because, like you're doing something that how many Americans are going to actually go and do something?
Speaker 1:like that, very few, but yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:Wow, that makes a lot of sense. And just to bring it down to even maybe more of a local level, for instance, the gym that I opened the gym there was no gym in the neighborhood closed, so it wasn't I didn't. I mean obviously going international. There's going to be huge opportunity there. But even just somebody could look at their small town or the next town over yeah, like what isn't, what don't they have here? Maybe they don't have a great plumber, maybe they don't have a great gym, maybe they don't have a great laundromat, dumb stuff like that, maybe they don't have good, affordable housing. So now all of a sudden you start developing housing. So I do think that's a good salient point to draw from. This is, if there's no opportunity in your neighborhood because it's saturated, sometimes just moving the next neighborhood might be a good opportunity there. But obviously international that's going to provide all types of opportunity.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I mean you're totally right. You were talking about the neighborhoods, but in the like US, like in the you're in this one. This called the sack. You want to go over to like this, is Jeanette, right? You want to go over to I don't know like Greensburg, or go over to you know some other township, right? Maybe those problems are different, right? No?
Speaker 1:that's true. So was this your first swing at?
Speaker 2:entrepreneurship First swing going the whole way. That makes sense. Like I've had, like you know, I've always been a language guy, which is what you know. I could go to South America, you know I'm a big Spanish, that sort of thing, but you know, speak a bunch of other languages and you know I've always wanted to like, way back in the day I, like you know, created a language product to like use like chatbots, to, to to kind of like help you learn as opposed to like learning grammar and stuff like little lessons on do lingko. You just like talk to a chatbot and just keep asking.
Speaker 2:But AI wasn't as as good back in the day as it is now, so it was more like a maybe it was a boring chatbot. Chatbots were more boring back in the day but yeah, that was like a one idea that I had in college and I didn't like we pitched to a couple of schools but we didn't like it kind of dropped it afterward. You know, it was like working at a regular company and yeah, okay, there's going to be a lot of work.
Speaker 1:So was that just phased out because of technology or you're just like the payoff isn't going to be here?
Speaker 2:Multiple multiple things. Also, like just out of college probably wasn't in the right you know what's the word like state of mind to be, to be thinking about what is entrepreneurship, what it requires. I was, like, you know, working at a regular job, you know, you know, having fun with my friends, you know, just doing this little thing on the side. It wasn't really like, oh, I'm going to take this to the seed and you know, you know, series A or whatever, right, which is really the mentality you want to have and VCs want you to have. If you're going to have, like, there's a sacrifice involved, right? So, at like 22, probably, yeah, I was. I was just not in that state of mind.
Speaker 1:So you think it was just a maturity thing? Yeah, as you got older, you're like I can do this, like I'm going to put the effort in and make this happen. Yep, yep, so you're in. So let's take it back further. Since we're starting to talk about this, you're born and raised right around here. Yeah, so you went to.
Speaker 2:Greensburg. I went to Greensburg, salem or up to middle school and then I went to Kiske Prep for high school. Okay, so yeah, salzburg, greensburg, all this kind of generally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's all kind of around here, and then you went to Rice after that.
Speaker 2:Yes, In Houston.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's easy too, and, like you know, you and all your sisters went to like crazy good schools, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, like all of them, bro, like your sisters come up to the gym and I talk to them.
Speaker 1:I'm like everybody in this family is smart. It's just a fact. Why do you think that is like your whole family? Because there's a lot of people that grow up in this area, and I mean there's a lot of people that have success here too, A lot of people that don't at all. So why do you think it's that you literally you and all of your sisters are doing so well?
Speaker 2:So my family came over here from India. I came here when I was maybe four or five.
Speaker 1:Your first generation. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So like I learned English when I came here, you can't tell now, but yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's awesome.
Speaker 2:But basically so my parents, just I'm rewinding a lot so that he's fine.
Speaker 2:So my parents were Christian missionaries in India. So they, they, they grew up in India, they went to, they actually went to medical school. So they're they're, they're both doctors. But afterward my dad had a religious experience that changed his basically that he he changed his whole life, or so he didn't. He didn't pursue medicine at all after that. So they basically both him and my dad, or both him and my mom went like we're from the South, they went all the way up north to to work with, like indigenous tribes and basically people with, you know, it's just very remote areas, and try to bring one, you know, the Christian message and also try to help them out in a in a lot of ways, like whether it was medicines, whether it was, you know, just in general education, so business. They spent their whole lives working with these people. But in India, being India is very complex in a religious sense, so there's a lot of religious issues that pop up. Religious violence being, you know, an extreme issue, depending on, you know, depending on how the politics are, is at any particular moment, like my dad being a pastor, being a Christian in certain areas, it pretty much became unsafe for him to continue doing that.
Speaker 2:My parents basically made a decision at one point that you know, I was, I think, four, and then my little sister was like one or two and they're like, okay, this is, this is not, we can't be here, right. So they, back in the day the US immigration policy wasn't as right now it's really hard to actually get a visa to the US, but they're, they were able to get it pretty quickly. They had like one, I think, one relative in the in New York or something, and so with that, like, if you had a relative in the US, they weren't, they weren't like especially from India, they weren't putting a lot of restrictions on that. So they were able to get one pretty quickly, get a, get like a visa pretty quickly and get to get to the US. And basically we had to start over from scratch, right, my parents didn't speak English Like they. They learn English in the same way. Like you know, people here learn Spanish like we learned Spanish in school, right?
Speaker 1:Like I've taken four years, I can't speak Exactly right.
Speaker 2:Like cause, you don't have to right, exactly. So so they, yeah, they came over here and we, essentially like they, they went to medical school in India, but they have no. Like they never completed their residency right, so there was no. Like you can't just practice, right, you can't just go be a doctor, you know something. So eventually, like my parents, and because of the whole tangent to being missionaries, they weren't really able to utilize, like you know, the skills they, they, they, they, or the knowledge they, they had right.
Speaker 2:So, they had skills, but on paper Exactly Like. So eventually, like it was really hard for us growing up till I went to to high school, so you know, they got a trailer here. So, basically, like, I lived in a trailer out on 819, like, and that was my dad used to print shirts for and that was how he, like made a living, right, he was just, you know, work with a friend of his and print shirts all day. We made $5,000 a year till I went to college. So, like, that's as a family with you know, six people me and my three sisters and two parents, and that's, that's nothing.
Speaker 1:Right, you can't like, yeah, can't even live in Columbia, exactly.
Speaker 2:You can't even that's.
Speaker 2:Colombian salary in the but yeah, right, exactly, and no, it was just. It was sad for him because he's a very educated person, but like, being kind of forced to just like one, like the language was very hard for them when they started, like they couldn't. It was hard to like they couldn't. I remember they tried to like work at Lowe's or something and it was just too poor that they couldn't like communicate with people enough to be like a salesman at Lowe's or something, right, so that that aspect was was pretty hard. And then, yeah, just just the money, the income requirements. And then, and me growing up, or me and my sisters growing up in that, in that like very low income household, like that was. That was how we grew up, right, that's the context, essentially what.
Speaker 2:What made them different was every time we come to the dinner table, my parents would. We wouldn't have like a conversation like oh, like, oh, you know, you see, the Steelers game today there was, there was never any of that. It would just, it would just be like, hey, man, you like, what do you think about heaven and hell? Like do you think you're going to? You know, like what, what's, what do you think happens? Like when you die, right? Or man, here's a? Here's a book, right, like, here's a book on evolution, and why do you like? Is this like we're Christians? But like this is this is true. Like evolution is the, you know it's, it's scientifically a fact. Right, like, this is like, what do you think about this? Like, and it was always the constant. Like you know, if you have a conversation with my dad, like you probably know, he probably talked to him, but he's a very interesting guy like you just, and constantly being forced to not just be like, okay, like, I'm going to go, I'm going to go study some things in school, maybe get some grades, and then go, you know, play soccer or play tennis or whatever. Like, or you know, just do whatever.
Speaker 2:It was just a very extreme focus on okay and like, there is a point to understanding. You know science and art and literature and there's a reason for all those things. Right, like it's it, it makes it, it put a framework in like, oh, these things are important, right, one for just for the sake of understanding. And two, because if you want to get out of this like a Poverty, right you, this is how you do it. Right, like you, you got to be the best, and so that was something that was instilled in my In, like in us as kids from from a very, very young age. So like it in, I guess, like in a final answer, your question right, if you have that mindset, it doesn't matter what circumstances you grow up with, grow up in what like, yeah, financial level you're in, like you can basically supersede all that. I.
Speaker 1:Agree, that's what's awesome about the United States, that's just true. That's very because you can do that. Yep, right, and I'm not. Obviously I didn't live in India, I'm not a specialist in it, but I know it's not enforced by the government as much. But there is a cultural enforcement of the caste system in India. Yeah, yeah, like, once you're in a certain level, you kind of stuck there, right.
Speaker 2:Oh, actually, let me. Let me use, because you just mentioned the United States being like fantastic for this sort of thing and Like the in terms of like social mobility, right, and I'll use an example from from Columbia. So my girlfriend you know I live there now and in the company is based on everything my girlfriend's Colombian, we've been together for two years and her, basically her, I'm really good friends with her family. So her younger brother very similar kind of person to me, so we get along very well. He like like he'll go basically he'll finish work and then he'll go go home and then get like on like courses. He'll get like online courses for like Udemy, if you know. Yeah, I think so, exactly. So like he'll get some courses on you know some coding courses and He'll watch everything.
Speaker 2:He doesn't speak English. He just, you know, knows like a little bit of English, but like he'll watch everything in English, subtitle, in Spanish, right, and then he'll try to take those over and then go to his like coding and editor, like whether he's making a game or something and coding is in English, right, like Python, java, like this is all English words Like the computers don't understand, you know, even basic like what is that a loop? What is a for loop? What is a for? Is an English word, right, it doesn't make any sense in Spanish. So, basically, he will like write, copy them all over and then like painstakingly, like make sure, like translate everything, like, oh, what does it mean? What is recursion? What is you know like? What is a loop? What is a map? Like all these. Like you know, coding has a lot of love if, then but like it'll just be.
Speaker 2:He's doing it in Spanish and he'll understand in Spanish, but the process with which he has to like go do that stuff, like go learn is, is much harder than someone here, right, like you're doing the same thing. There's a lot of like extra steps. So I see them, hey see him doing this all the time. He never complains about it, just you know that's what he does. But in Colombia, because they you know my girlfriend's family they're not like like, they're like middle-class, but they're not like you know, they don't have like a lot of money, right? So basically, there isn't like a room for it doesn't matter how really smart you are, right, the government is not gonna like give you a Scholarship to go to some college where you know, just you can study and do all this things.
Speaker 2:So like it's hard for him to To go. He like he's looking around trying to find like where he can, where he can get some, you know Some sponsorship where you can get some, you know some scholarship, something like that, to go study this stuff. But it's hard, right. And now I'm imagining, like this kid comes to the US when everything is like you can go to college, you know, and be a shitty like lacrosse player and get a full ride right, yeah, like, and he, like he's gonna have no competition whatsoever. So that's like, that's, that's a once you see in other places, like how, how much like daily life is kind of a struggle, or like the things that you take, oh, you take an education for granted, right. Then you're like, oh shit, like I see why the US is, you know, like is the land of opportunity in a sense.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean no, that makes sense. That's what I've always said to if you want to develop discipline, yeah, you do things that require discipline. Yeah, if you want to develop a work ethic, you have to do things that require work. Work ethic, yeah, sounds like that's exactly what that kid's doing. It's probably extremely tedious, yep, to have to translate everything into from Spanish, which you know. You want to say, hey, I want to create an if-then statement with a loop at the end. Then you have to actually do it in English. Yeah, but like you said, he's, he's facilitating a skill set that we don't really need anymore. Yep, you know what I mean. Like, honestly, if you want to just skate by here in the States with Mediocre work.
Speaker 1:Exactly, you know, you're never gonna be affluent, but yeah, you might be alright. You know I mean you skate through.
Speaker 2:That's why it's attractive, right, like people shouldn't have to work so hard to just get you know, to just live, right. Yeah, but in he's, like you said, he's very disciplined, but it's almost as if the society has forced him to be disciplined. Right, if you want out, you have to be that way, otherwise you're not getting out, right. So once you, once people do leave, like you'll see what happens all time. Like you know, an immigrant from India or from Latin America or wherever like, comes to the US Makes it really big and then their kids are, like you know, just not doing, not at the same level because they don't need to be anymore Right, and they're maybe there, like his grandkids are not even close to, and that's, it's a normal thing.
Speaker 1:They're just like normal, every, every other American. Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense. That's a guy that I follow. His name is Beidros Cooley and he's from Eastern Europe somewhere. Okay, it calls it the immigrant edge and that's exactly what it is. It's the fact that, like it is hard just to get by Yep and these former Soviet block countries, like it's hard just to have a heated house, have electric, clean water and maybe, if you're lucky, a car, yeah, right, that's hard to do here.
Speaker 1:It's like you can get a job tomorrow like that, have a car in a place to rent with heat, and you honestly, you probably don't even have to pay your rent being in rentals. I'm here to tell you.
Speaker 2:You don't even have to pay your rent. It's hard for me to throw you out. You know you could be working at McDonald's and Everybody at McDonald's has a car. They go home in a car. They, you might, they might. They may not have like the iPhone 14, but they're gonna have the iPhone 10, like you know it's. They might have an Xbox in their house, like that's, yeah, that's just wild dude.
Speaker 1:I was down in Brazil this is a couple years ago, but I remember this specifically. It was a great trip. I mean Ipanema Beach. We stayed around there. Beautiful dude, it was awesome. I Remember.
Speaker 2:Ipanema in like a Rio de Janeiro. Yeah, yeah I was only in Sao Paulo, in Brazil.
Speaker 1:Okay, hey, make the trip to Rio. It was awesome. But I remember we were driving back to the airport to drive home and I look out of the window. We had a driver which we could afford, mind you, which wasn't that expensive down here but I remember looking out the right side of the window and it was just a village, yeah, of corrugated tin houses underneath a bridge. Mm-hmm, that's poverty, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's wild, the favelas, the communists, that's it's wild dude.
Speaker 1:That's like here. You know so. And obviously I want everybody to be affluent and live a life of their dreams. Yeah, great, I mean, I get that, but here it's like you're poor. You got an iPhone 6 and color TV. There it's like totally different. So if you have, if you manage to get out of that destitution, you are one hard son of a bitch.
Speaker 1:You have to be, you got skills, you have discipline, you're willing to work yourself to the bone. We don't need to do that here, yep, and it reminds me of a quote. So societies are born stoic but die Epicurean. What that means is societies are grown, empires are built, yeah, based off of duty and responsibility. They die based off of living how you want. It's like the last what is it? The last chapter of acts, and in Jerusalem there was no king, so everybody did it as he pleases.
Speaker 1:That's kind of and I hate to say it, yeah, it's kind of where we're at, dude, like duty, responsibility and things like that. We're kind of losing that a little bit. In my opinion you know I could be wrong they're still grinders here. Dude, this is America, american industry still top of the food chain. But it's like you see a lot of that kind of tilting where people think they're owed something and it's like, dude, you, you have the opportunity here, yeah, and until you go abroad or, in your case, until you've lived a different life, you don't realize, like, dude, this is this is the land of opportunity, man.
Speaker 1:Like just driving back to the airport, that changed me forever, completely just looking out and being like there's people that live there, there's children that live there, yep, women that live there, men that live there just scraping to get by Totally different totally different.
Speaker 2:I was, you know, you know, charles over there, yeah, yeah, okay, so it's nice. Like he calls himself Charles, the Bronx, all the way, like the Bronx is like from the favela in Portuguese, but like what once you consider like that, like he's literally from that, yes, come of the earth, like to put it that way right, yeah, the tin, the tin, yeah the core game in the house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Right, yeah and like now you see, like if a guy makes it to that you know the best in the UFC, you know he was the champion.
Speaker 1:Like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:He's gonna be a one hard guy. Yeah, he's like you. Respect for it. For that I also think, like you just made the point about the end in acts. Right, the everyone does as he please. I think that's so true. In a sense, there's a. There's a quote from some science fiction author I forget the name, but it's. It goes bad times create hard men, or no bad times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men and weak men create bad times. Right, it's like a, it's a, it is a, it is a real cycle, and then the men can be men and women too, just people. But it's true, like, if you look at problems in the US today not not trying to, like you know, negate the existence of anyone, but like what are all the stuff that's always on the news?
Speaker 2:right, it's like you know whether it's it's gender identity stuff, whether it's, you know, some sort of racism, like, like I'm trying to think of, some things are constantly, oh, you know, college loans, or there's a lot, of, a lot of like issues, that Social issues, that their first world problem exactly first world problem and he transferred that to like somewhere else, like, oh, whether, like, oh, you know, whether sometimes like extreme sorts of feminism or extreme sorts of like no, in the manosphere, type stuff, right, I see like a lot of this stuff on online and you know a lot of Fox news, I don't know like these guys always talking about it, but it doesn't even make sense in you talking the context of Brazil, right, they're like, why are you talking about, like you know, whether the bathroom should be male or female or whatever?
Speaker 2:Like we're trying to like figure out there's an inequality here that you know has to be dealt with first before anyone's gonna even know what's going on. It's gonna be dealt with first before anyone's gonna even talk about those sorts of problems, right? So yeah, just to your point, like we start hyper focusing on issues that you know that they might be issues to some people but they're not as on the same scale as you know, the the realistic or not the realistic, like the real I'm gonna use that word concrete issues that you know Pertained a day-to-day life and in some other place.
Speaker 1:I agree. I think that Exit a society is born stoic and it dies up a curian Yep, yep right. And these first world problems can only exist in the first world. That's why, when I think about here's another example climate change. Right, it's something that we in the West and Western Europe, in the United States, we're hyper focused on. Yep, right, and maybe maybe we should be okay, they don't care about the climate a hundred years from now in sub-Saharan Africa? Yeah, right, they're not worried about it. So when we're talking about certain things like how we don't want to, you know, have any more gas, natural gas, or we don't want to have any more coal, what are we doing? When we say that? Who are we sacrificing? When we say that, yeah, right, so it's, I'm not gonna tell Developing nation, hey, you know how we used natural gas, infrastructure exists and how we burn coal, and so we could thrive and be excellent. You can't do that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we think about these problems like like big global problems, like Like climate change. I'm just gonna stay on that. The best thing that you can do is get people as rich as possible as fast as possible. Yes, that's number one. Yep, because you're not gonna focus on hey, I'm gonna. I got to burn this dung to keep my house warm. You're not like you know what. Maybe this is some environmental factors, dude. It's like we can't just think about okay, these are issues for us, so we have to apply this everywhere else on the world. It's like maybe they need unique solutions. That's why I have a problem with like this whole World economic forum and like these big brains that are trying to basically move the global economy in a way, and it's like it comes down to a Conflict of visions. To quote Thomas Noel, I Believe that there is no one person or small group of people that can make decisions Better than the people living in that circumcertain 100% does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yep, so there is nobody that is smart enough, that can do enough Calculations to know exactly how to move an economy, and the evidence of that is the Soviet Union. How many people had to starve? Maoist China? How many people had to starve before we realized, like hey, central control it doesn't work? Yeah, it just doesn't work. So these problems in these developing nations and and I'm not an international specialist obviously we're just shooting the shit at this point. Yeah, but this seems like the number one thing that you can do is allow these people to get as rich as possible, as fast as possible.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna push back a little bit on what you said, right?
Speaker 1:I want to hear what your, what your opinion is, yeah.
Speaker 2:You can look at particular examples, right. So let's let's look at Singapore, dubai, right. Very, very rich or countries, right?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Singapore in the 60s was Third world country, yeah, and then they had one particular leader who came into power and he basically Became a dictator because he was like, okay, like we're gonna, I'm gonna do what's best for this country. I know how to do it and I'm, once I get to power, like once I, once I like get to power, and then you know, complete what I. What I said about doing like we're this country is gonna look different. Right, it's gonna. And Singapore now is it's not first world, it's like zero.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Exactly right, like some. Some people make analogy. They say, oh, like, if you go from Singapore, like the US, the difference in the US and Singapore, even though the US is so developed, but the US looks like a, like a third world country compared to, like, how, singapore, so laid out, right. But I think, well, and the reason I bring it up is, I think, naturally, developing world, the developing world, will Just get better, right, but they need to be left alone. That's the thing, right in in a country, for instance, and here is here's where I push back on some. Yeah, I mentioned already that the US is like the land of opportunity here, right, mm-hmm, but it's at the expense of a lot of countries. So you look at, for instance, uh, the Israel, hamas thing, right, yeah, that just happened, right. Let's talk about the Middle East. Look at Iran. Iran, they're always chanting death to America, you know that sort of thing, but it's not cuz they're just Like they just woke up one day and we're like, oh, we hate American movies, right? Yeah, no, it's.
Speaker 2:In the 60s, iran was a paradise, it was the. You know, you just look at pictures that there were no religious, and this is something I asked myself a long time ago, I was like I've never met an Iranian, that's, that's religious, like, it's like a they're always such nice like secular. You know, it's Persia, the Persian Empire, like where we're. What happened here? And then, you know, I this was back in high school and then I was talking to some professors and they started like telling me Exactly what happened and how the US toppled the like. They wanted the oil, like the British petroleum. Right, iran want to nationalize its own oil. And they said, oh no, we're not gonna let that happen. And they put their own. They toppled the shop, put their own Guy in power. And this guy, this puppet it was a CIA coup. This puppet basically crucified 300,000 people in the street, has torture squads, that sort of thing. And so Iran was in like a Like, how do you, how do you live with that? Right, so like. And then they, they said, hey, we're gonna turn to whoever, who's the only people that can get these guys out, right, and it was the religious clerics. And now they just don't want to leave power, right, yeah, so like, there is a On the one side, we can sit across the ocean and say, hey, this developing country, why are they like this, but then it doesn't affect us because we're so far away in this ocean, separated, right. The same thing in Latin America, with Chile reggae, for instance, at Pinochet, like Linda me Johnson was out here like literally, these been declassified, you can look this up. He was like make the Chilean economy scream because they're not giving us the products we want, right, and make sure it doesn't come back to me, right, and they toppled that guy. He murdered hundreds of thousands, like and these are like clear is Columbia is another example, and you know the Panama situation.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, but like it's not, they're not developing because it's something fundamentally wrong with them. It's if you're a country that is not powerful enough to like stand on your own, like India, like you don't go screw with India, right, but If you're Columbia, if you're Chile, whatever and every, you know ten years, some guy comes in, you know you have a, you have a president. It's a little, you know, not super pro us, not super pro China, just like his own thing. Someone just come in, you know fucks with them, right, yeah, of course. Like how are they going to develop if that's constantly?
Speaker 1:happening. Yes, I agree with you. So, and that's a fair, fair pushback, and this is my response to that. You're right. Hmm, the fact is that governments exist abroad, right? So you almost need your government to exist to Basically have your back. I understand that for sure. In a perfect world, to be honest with you, in a very perfect world, we would all be like Switzerland, where it's like we're not fighting foreign wars, we're like sticking with our own thing, we have a good economy.
Speaker 1:The unfortunate reality, living in the practical application of this, the unfortunate reality is that Big countries bully small countries. It's just a fact. So sometimes these small countries have to do things to prevent the bully. Yep, so what? I would say the practical application of something like that. You need just enough government, just enough to prevent interference from other government, but not so much that it stifles the economy. Yep, so, for instance, like I don't see any system ever created to create more wealth and opportunity than a free market economy. I've never seen anything better than that. But you need to have some, and I hate it because I hate the state, but you need to have a state that's gonna just let Linda B Johnson come like, hey, let's bury these guys.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:That's the unfortunate reality is like dude there are, and I don't want to call the US a bad actor, because I live here doing it's afforded a great lifestyle, bro, but at the same time, like countries operate in their own interests and we're gonna get deep now.
Speaker 1:That's why people are ambitious, right, and what a free market allows is for ambition to enrich everybody involved, because for me to make a ton of money, for you to make a ton of money, you solved a problem and I hope you get super wealthy. Dude, I do. I love when people get wealthy, especially young dudes, especially first generation. Yeah, you come here and get wealthy, bro. That's like a dream of mine for me to just continue to see that. But what you need to do is either have ambition, be beneficial to all, or have ambition counter ambition. And that's why I think what do you mean? My ambition counter ambition.
Speaker 1:So that's why we have separate, separate but equal branches of government, because we know that we're not saints, bro. The people that want to get to the top are not typically the people you want to be at the top. The people who want the most power Are probably the people you don't want to be in there to be an honest. But what our founding fathers realized is like okay, look, we're never gonna have saints in these positions, but what we can do is have three separate branches where ambition counters ambition, right? So it's like this branch can't get too powerful, because this branch will hold them in check, and so will this branch. So it's where you're basically pitting the ambition of all the parties involved, so they can't just hammer us or aggregate too much power in one branch. Yeah, so like I think the presidency should be such that it doesn't matter who's in power, instead of the presidency being such that it doesn't matter who's in power. I know that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:I see what you're trying to say.
Speaker 1:It's so it's such a powerful position now and dude. That's why I think we're all at each other's throat. It's like worse than I've ever seen. It's crazy because it's like the federal. The federal government is so strong that it actually does impact when somebody votes, and it's wild how it's like that. So like if you vote for Biden and I vote for Trump, it actually does have an impact on our life. Yeah, not a huge one more like zoning and school boards and stuff have a massive impact. That's why it's wild that people don't participate as much, but it does have a Significant impact on your life, on who actually wins the presidency. So I think that creates a divide. Mm-hmm, I think it creates a structural divide in the country, where it's like people are out of each other's throats because the federal government is so strong that it really matters if you're a Democrat or Republican.
Speaker 2:It's crazy. This is a, so I wouldn't consider this pushback.
Speaker 1:It's like a conversation. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's very interesting and I have some theories as to as to why. So, for instance, the US model of government, like you're saying, like that we have Ideally, like a, from the founding fathers perspective, it's a weak state, it's a weak central government and you know, people are kind of let free to do what they want as long as they don't go, you know, harming other people, right, that's, that's the whole idea. It's really interesting to see Historically how that originated. So, and I don't think it's a model that can be applied to other countries. So, so, if you look at what types of so democracy right, the whole system of a democracy it can. In the US it was able to work one, because you know we have Mexico and China like relatively weak neighbors and then fish on boat. You know the other two sides, right, yeah, so basically from the US, like, if you think of it as a cul-de-sac, it was this cold, as I like people were able to live there and Then kind of go like, like what do they call like manifest destiny? Like Some settlers move, they find some house somewhere in the wilderness. They live there. You know little house on the prairie. You know they have their gun. You know, occasionally some Native Americans like come around and you know they might cause some trouble, or you know, maybe some wild animals or something like that was the whole Settler ethos, right, yes, and the ideal for them was hey, we don't want this, a central government, interfering in our life, because our life is good, there's plenty of resources around, like we, you know there's some gold in the rivers like we want to take that, right, we want to.
Speaker 2:If you go, if you go, look at a Russia or China or the Middle East, you can't have a democracy. There's been studies run that what types of people, for instance, if Russia were to have a democracy and these three candidates were the options you had, who would the people pick democratically? They would pick the strongman, they would pick the guy with the Trumpish kind of tendencies, right, or Putin-esque tendencies. And it's because Russia is a country with over thousands of years, hasn't been invaded so many times. Right, there's always like a, whether it was the Mongols, whether it was, you know, the Tartars, basically, whether it's the Japanese, whether there's always, you know, hitler, napoleon, like, so, essentially, like any time they're given a little bit of you know rest, so to speak, and they can focus on domestic issues.
Speaker 2:You know, 50 years, boom, like we got to face another foreign threat. We need a strong guy, empowered, you know, essential authority, right. So for them, you know, in the perspective of Russia, china, they won't be democratic, right? They just that mentality is like sewn into their ethos, right, we need some guy who can direct when the situation gets bad, right. And the same thing in other countries, you know, in the Middle East it's even worse problem, right. So in that situation democracy doesn't really what's the word like democracy doesn't really. There's another aspect. So in the US, like as a structure, the US has always kind of followed the UK in like a sense of rules, like rule abiding society.
Speaker 1:British common law. Exactly, exactly, right.
Speaker 2:You can even see it like you. If you're outside and you see a bunch of Americans like trying to get ice cream, whatever, they'll form a nice little line and then, wait right, germans won't do that right Like there's no line, they're just going to get right.
Speaker 2:South Americans won't do that right. So the like democracy needs like a very an ecosystem that's very conducive for it to thrive. Right, when you're in the Middle East, and you know you've got these fanatic groups, you've got these religious, like ancient religious. You know groups that want their place in power, but you can't just let them have a vote. You know like, oh, vote for like. Of course, you know what's going to happen, right. Like it's like a very specific set of. If you have a democracy, it has to be very tailored to to that particular country, right? I'm just saying, like, when you're, you're making your comments on central government. I think it's a very valid use case for the US, but it's harder to see that working in a lot of other countries, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yes, there's two things that I would need to address with that. The first one is when I was in Switzerland World-class hiking, it was beautiful, I loved it. The most surprising thing, though, were the cities. So I was in Geneva, lucerne, zurich I was all over that country. I couldn't find a cigarette butt on the street Not one. I couldn't find a single homeless person Not one. You go down to Pittsburgh there's a lot of homeless people.
Speaker 2:There's trash everywhere.
Speaker 1:You're tripping over people trying to get to the parking garage. So I thought I'm like what is the difference here? Why is it that like the city's here safe? We're walking around at 8.30 at night trying to buy chocolate in a foreign land and I never felt safer. There's kids out on a scooter.
Speaker 1:Like it's 8.30 at night. I would never let a kid out in a scooter in Pittsburgh at 8.30 at night. And it comes down to exactly what you're saying there's a cultural difference, there's a geographical difference and, as a result of the geographical difference, there's a. There's a.
Speaker 2:The individualism aspect. Right, the individual aspect, like you just mentioned, is great for companies. It's great for I come here and I come to the US. I don't go to Switzerland to get rich, right. I come to the US and I'm like, hey, I'm going to take advantage of all the resources here and then I'll go live in Switzerland, right, but like that's like they are way more. You know what's collectivist, like. In a sense, you know they're not as there's a pride there, dude for sure.
Speaker 1:Like we were screwing up, throwing trash in the wrong can. This motherfucker comes up, it's like no, no, no, we don't do it like this, like real, like pissed, and I'm like I respect the shit out of that, because in the city you'll have somebody dump a bottle of liquor outside and shit on the sidewalk and keep walking and everyone's like yeah, that's normal. So okay, this is. I agree with you. The American model doesn't necessarily have to work everywhere, and I don't think it can. Right, I think there's cultural differences that are so inter, so involved in that individual, that we think that we can just pick up the American system and drop it somewhere and it's going to work.
Speaker 1:I don't believe that. That's why and this is going to be a difficult, I hope I explained this right that's why federalism in the United States made so much sense, because there's a collection of different states where different people settled, with different cultures that settled there. So some states might be worse off than other states in some respects, better off in other respects. So you had a medley of different states to choose from. So there was just enough federal government that I think eventually they instituted a common currency. That made business a little bit easier. There was a You're talking in the US, right, yeah, in the US, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was like certain there was enough federal government to hold those states together, but not as much that it didn't matter what state you lived in.
Speaker 1:So I don't necessarily think that the American model is going to work everywhere. The only thing that I can say definitively in the opinion that I hold is that each country is going to have a certain amount of government that allows that country to flourish, but I believe that it needs to be the minimal dose of government that still maximizes freedom, because I do believe human freedom and economic freedom is the number one way to create opportunity, to create products, to bring people out of $8,000 a year to what's the average American make? Like $50,000? Yeah, like it's like a six.
Speaker 2:Even compared to Europe, that's like double. Yeah, like it's like a six-ex growth, dude.
Speaker 1:So I agree with you the American model doesn't necessarily work everywhere. We tried it in Afghanistan, dude. That thing collapsed in a heartbeat as soon as we left. It was like done, no more American model, so it's not necessarily going to work. I just hope that and this might be a pipe dream I just hope that there's enough individuals in these countries to say I want to use the minimal amount of government to preserve what I think is right, but maximize the opportunity here for us to actually get out of this situation.
Speaker 1:I have a buddy that's in the military. He's like dude. I was in Afghanistan three different times. They're 300 years in the past. He's like that's never what we're trying to do. There is never, ever going to work. He said that years before we ever pulled out. He's like, it's never going to work. I just would like to see Like, when you look at China, right, there is nothing better for China than when they started to introduce more free market opportunities there. Now it's not free market, bro. Like, make no mistake, you don't own anything there, but they use free market systems to allow people to get wealthy. Now the state can take your shit in a heartbeat.
Speaker 1:I wish that weren't the case and I feel bad for those billion people over there. But at the same time, they even recognize like wait a second. We need to allow some free market principles in order for these people to actually get out of the destitution, like my goal with free market economics. Yes, I want to make a shit pile of money, dude.
Speaker 2:You do too, bro. That's what we do.
Speaker 1:We're ambitious guys, we're young guys, but more than just that. I really do believe that is the number one way to take people out of poverty. That's my personal opinion. That's just based off of what I've read.
Speaker 2:To summarize what you're saying. And it makes sense. It's for any country. The model can be applied to any country. The specifics are what's different, right, but basically any country will thrive if there's a path to success for any citizen in that country. If there's no, if any person in that country can come up with an idea and go create their own business, that's giving back to the country, if that's something, that's. And get rich, right.
Speaker 2:Obviously, if there's something, if there's some hindrance there, that's where you see the problem. And then this is completely obvious in Colombia, in Brazil, is actually a lot better. But Argentina, all these countries like India, that is very hard, right. There is no social mobility. People want the average person wants to be mobile, they want to be, they want to have. You know, maybe not like everyone, maybe not everyone, is going to start a business and get rich, but at least have enough money to send your kids to a good school, to just live normally, right, and that's something that these countries don't afford the average person because there's so much corruption up top right. So I'll use Colombian as an example.
Speaker 2:Colombia has a president. This is the case with a lot of countries, right? The most of the countries in the world. Colombia has a president right now. He is a bit on the left right and it makes sense in Colombia because there's so many. Like, socialism has a use case when there's so many poor people. Right, you can't just be like, oh, capitalist, why are you guys so poor? You were born in the favela. Okay, screw you like, work your way up. No, they need some sort of help. Right In the past, I think it's the past 30 years, three Colombian presidents have been assassinated for trying to push more social reform.
Speaker 2:And the reality is it's not because the people aren't assassinating, the people love it, the people that actually rule the country. There's several families, there's like five or six families that actually rule Colombia, and this is the same with Peru, ecuador. There's like several, basically oligarchs, right, and you do something that screws with the money. Like, one oligarch family will own all the media channels. Another oligarch will own all the produce. So, like you see a supermarket, there's like three or four brands of supermarkets, all owned by the same family. You try to make your own supermarket chain. You try to make your own media channel, do your own news, get a bullet in the head, right.
Speaker 2:So that's the law behind the law, right, it's very hard for a government. It's the deep state, exactly right, it is exactly what it is right. In the US it's less obvious, but it's there. Right, it's very hard for, like, colombia will have a parliament, you know it has its senate and its you know Congress and the bodies of government, but that's not really who controls things, right, like that's just the front to be, like, okay, we're democratic, but if you do something that actually wants, you actually want to change something, bad things are going to happen. Right, so that series of it has to change.
Speaker 2:Like all these countries, whether it's Most countries in Latin America, you know, the Middle East is another example, right, they're rich. But who controls all the oil? Right, it's the family at the top, the Saudi family in Saudi Arabia. Right, it's not the regular people that are. They might sprinkle a little dust you know gold dust every once in a while, right, but all that oil is just in one family, right, it's so much wealth. How are you gonna? It's not like we don't have the governing body. We need votes. It's not that right, it's you have to. Those people will not give up power easily, right, and if they will. It'll be a violent, violent overthrow of power, which maybe should happen, but that's the blocker to a lot of developing countries to actually develop. That makes sense.
Speaker 1:No, it makes perfect sense, because when the state is powerful, it can be co-opted and used in a way for the person who co-opted Exactly. You know what I mean. That's why it's again. I just think there needs to be enough state to safeguard certain inalienable rights and to safeguard against foreign invaders or foreign countries or A country that can definitely take advantage of you, but not so much that it stifles that economic mobility, because, like you said, the Saudi government is basically run by the wealthiest people, kind of in our country too, man, oh yeah yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean not as blatant.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. You can get these outsiders in and there's a ton of economic mobility here. But I think you're right, there's like it's what some people call the deep state or the shadow government or the oligarchy, whatever you want to call it where it's like big money that co-opt the government that basically put policies in place that allow them to stay on top. Bro, I mean, think about how much money these big pharma puts into politics every year. You know there's two countries that allow pharmaceutical companies to market directly to the consumer. We're one of them. Yeah, bro, they're so powerful.
Speaker 2:Powerful as hell. Speaking of drugs and this sort of pharma, look at the FDA. The food here in the US is the worst food in the world. It's like these canned shit that you get at stores boxed macaroni. Every drink juice. You could buy a bottle of juice. It has like three times the sugar intake, the normal sugar intake for a week for one person. These things are banned in Latin America. These things are banned in Europe. If you want to do even like you want to get a yogurt or something healthy and let's say you're in Colombia or in Brazil, whatever, there's like a big sticker on the yogurt and it'll say too much sugar, too much salt, like it's big black label, right? Yeah, here it's just you know that's too little sugar. But the FDA, which is supposedly supposed to be doing good for the consumer right, is not doing anything. It's just clearly an instance of corruption, right? Yes, switzerland hasn't let in any of these, like probably, like I'd say, 50% or more of these food products that we consume here on a regular basis. Definitely Banned.
Speaker 1:Dude, and it was weird being in Switzerland, nobody was like jacked, but nobody was fat, except for the Americans. Honesty God like I swear to God, we would be hiking or we'd be in a city or something, and then you'd hear somebody like yell in English, just because that's how we are as Americans, and he would be fat bro, that's just how it was like down in Rio de.
Speaker 1:Janeiro too. Like I'm walking on the beach, I'm like everybody's in shape. There's like Ipanema Beach you're running across. I mean it's just awesome, but then like there'd be like a fat guy and he would be American, bro, it's true.
Speaker 2:I mean, the portion size is like here you can get a, you know, like a large burger in. You go to McDonald's in Brazil and a large burger is like between small and medium here, you know, that's the one that no one gets. Like everyone gets at least a medium. So it's like like what the obviously like people are going to get fat, right. Yeah, even shirt sizes. Man, I was coming here like I'm depending on the shirt, like I usually be a medium, but here there's like medium large and then all these sizes that there's not. There's like XL, xxxl, yeah, that's really big.
Speaker 1:That's when we were down in Rio de Janeiro and remember we went to a restaurant. We had a guy that was our guide through connection Rio. That's when I was training, I was fighting. We were down there and we sat at the first restaurant. I was like dude, I'm starving. He knows a nine hour flight or whatever it was. We sit down and I asked him like hey, where's the burger? He tells me and I try to order it the best I can. Probably got ripped off, dude.
Speaker 2:They were just like oh, that'll be a hundred.
Speaker 1:Hey, oscar, they bring the burger and I'm like where's the rest of it? Yeah, it was just the burger. I'm expecting a fountain drink, french fries, everything else, dude, it is totally different. That was another big culture shock. When I go international it's like, bro, I'm going to starve, you don't though you get more burgers, exactly Like I am going to starve, but cool man.
Speaker 1:Other than that, dude, I just wanted to sit down and talk to you about your business, get an understanding of you know what that product looks like, how you kind of developed that idea and I'm glad we're able to shoot the shit about like cultural stuff too. Other than that, what's the company called? What's the next stage? If we're interested and you know learning more about it, how can we?
Speaker 2:So the company is called Rolampago and you can go to the website. So Rolampagocash, that's the website. Also, the LinkedIn is there. So that's for now In terms of an actual use case.
Speaker 2:If you ever go to Latin America, it's going to be something that you want to, you want in your back pocket. So, especially in Colombia, that's our main use case. You got to make any payment anywhere. Ask someone hey, you know, do you have Rolampago? If they don't tell them to download it and you can make your payment there, like it takes, you know, they don't even need to do anything in the app, they just download it and they can have, like receive a minimum amount of money without you know filling out all the registration and stuff. So it's 30 seconds. They'll make your life a lot easier.
Speaker 2:So, in terms of, in terms of like where we want to be in a year, so we want to like have this payments market, this like the payments market between the US and Colombia, the US and Brazil. Us, you know, payouts, like whether it's for payouts, whether it's imports, exports, a lot of, whatever reason, people are making payments or sending money down there, right, we want to control that or at least like take a giant share out of that, that market right In the next year in Colombia, and we're we're eyeing probably Mexico or Argentina next, and I think we're in a good position in terms of like just market knowledge and focus on those particular markets and like the value add that we provide right. So that's going to, yeah, that's going to be the the, the goal for the next one or two years.
Speaker 1:Perfect, awesome. Man. Well, I hear your phone going off. Mine's been going off too, so let's wrap this thing up.
Speaker 2:For sure, thanks, alex.
Speaker 1:Go on three, one, two, three. Okay, it's a wrap.