Mind Muscle with Simon de Veer
Mind Muscle with Simon de Veer
Pull-Up Prowess, Cannabis Clarity, and the Fasting Craze Decoded
Ever struggled to pull off a perfect pull-up or been left scratching your head at the latest health trends? Join your host, Simon DeVere, for an episode that promises to transform your grip on both fitness and wellness wisdom. We'll start by conquering the pull-up, a feat that eludes many, by breaking down a training strategy that's guaranteed to hoist you over that bar. Alongside, I'll peel back the layers of Athletic Greens, through a lens colored by Dr. Rhonda Patrick's insights and my own hands-on experience.
Navigating the murky depths of scientific representation, we wade into the controversy that's swirled around Andrew Huberman's cannabis research comments. Leaning on my cannabis cultivation background, we'll untangle the indica versus sativa debate and stress the weighty responsibility on figures like Huberman to deliver precise scientific communication. Switching gears, we'll reflect on the intermittent fasting phenomenon, tracing its historical roots, and dissecting its modern allure—questioning why something so steeped in antiquity still captivates today's health seekers.
As we wrap up, we critically assess the fasting craze and hold accountable public figures who shape the health and wellness narrative. From Athletic Greens to fasting fads, we underscore the importance of informed skepticism and constructive engagement. So, lace up your mental sneakers and prepare to flex those neurons as we embark on a cerebral workout aimed at cultivating both a stronger physique and an enlightened mind.
Producer: Thor Benander
Editor: Luke Morey
Intro Theme: Ajax Benander
Intro: Timothy Durant
For more, visit Simon at The Antagonist
Welcome to the Mind Muscle Podcast. Here's your host, simon DeVere, and welcome back to Mind Muscle, the place we study the history, science and philosophy behind everything in health and fitness. Today I am Simon Devere and there's nothing new, except all that has been forgotten. Anyway, guys, fingers crossed, had some audio disruptions coming through the house last couple of weeks, so I hope I got a good time, but we'll see if my dogs and my daughter want to comply with my plans today. But yeah, so I got four things I want to run down with you guys. So we're going to talk today about how to get better at pull-ups If you can't currently do one. I see pull-ups in a lot of programs, including my own, but yeah, common problem is a lot of people actually can't even do one. So we're going to kind of outline and identify how you could get your first pull-up. That's something that you haven't done and then all those programs with pull-ups in them become fair game for you. Let's also touch in. I saw a cool video from Dr Rhonda Patrick critiquing Athletic Greens Cool video. I was a user of the product for a while not currently using it, but video helped me solidify what I think my views are on the product.
Speaker 1:We're going to revisit Focus of a recent show, but we're going to actually touch on Andrew Huberman One more time. He actually got some scientists in the field of cannabis upset with some of the information he's promoting there. So let's just run down what Huberman's saying, what the scientists are saying. Oh, and then actually I just saw it in the news this morning. I already had this ready to talk about anyway, but he actually just signed a deal with WME, big agency here, that hit Variety. So, no, I think it's a timely and important discussion because he already has the number one rated fitness show. With a partnership like that, it's certainly going to be getting even bigger. So, yeah, I at least I'm no scientist, I am on, or at least I'm a fan of the evidence-based community. So, you know, hoping that he makes a turn back, you know, to that. And then last thing we're going to touch on I know I've been beating it up lately, but you know great article that I saw in the Atlantic that was called the fad diet. To end all fad diets focused on intermittent fasting. Liked a lot of the observations in there. And then couple pieces that I just wanted to add in my thoughts too, since I know those were some ideas that are circulating out there. But anyway, it's actually going to probably take me a minute to get through, so let's go ahead and jump right in.
Speaker 1:Let's start with your workout first. So I really do want to talk about how to get better at pull-ups, particularly for people who can't do one. Pull-ups really are one of the best upper body movements, particularly for your back, obviously, but that's why you see them in so many programs, in spite of the fact that there's actually a lot of people out there who can't do one. So, anyway, if this is you, um, that would be a great goal to train towards. You'd get tons of benefits uh, from that. Uh, improved grip strength. That's going to have a lot of carry over to um, just being more generally useful in life Um, one of the best anti-aging you know traits to have good grip. Um, they're actually great for core. I know that people are going to think of the back of the biceps with your pull-ups chin-ups but, um, remember, core is actually the ability to stabilize your spine, so you're going to get a lot of that throughout the range of motion of your pull-up. Hanging from a pull-up bar, us meathead trainers oftentimes call the poor man's chiropractor. It's going to improve posture, help stabilize the shoulders. You'll get some spinal decompression, some elongating of the spine. Enhances shoulder flexibility and stability, which then you know why're good for for warm-ups in general practice is, uh, in the context of training, can reduce your injury risk. If you've got a, you know, good, uh, good hang, and then obviously, mastery of the pull-up, even better. Um, can't really put this in. You know the benefits, but pull-ups do get easier when you lose weight. Oftentimes, when people set this as a goal, weight loss happens.
Speaker 1:I would also say, too, that just a lot of confidence and motivation comes from doing something that you, especially like me, a lot of people have probably written it off like they'll never be able to do it, and I don't want to get ahead of myself. Getting a first pull-up isn't solving any of the world's biggest problems, but reminding yourself that you can still, you know, do things that are difficult and beyond your reach is almost always worth doing, particularly when it can be really safe, like in the context of learning a new pull-up. So anyway, that's my sales pitch portion. If you never have done a pull-up, that's a reason why I actually think right now that would be a great goal for you to work towards in training. If you're already doing pull-ups, either send this to a friend who can't do one or tell them all of this. But yeah, let's just share the wealth because there's one.
Speaker 1:Here's why I want to talk about this is that there's what I think the intuitive answer to build up to getting the pull up isn't the right answer, and that's also why I think a lot of people don't ever wind up achieving a pull up, even though I actually think a lot of people put in some good work towards that. The intuitive answer that I think a lot of people go to that isn't, isn't as helpful as people think would be, um, something like a lap pull down. So if you know what I'm talking about, this, this would be a cable exercise where you're grabbing a bar while seated and you're going to pull that down to the chest. So the movement for the upper body looks very similar to the movement for the upper body in the pull-up because it is the same. But the reason that lat pull-downs are not a great way to actually get you into your first pull-up gets back to that benefit. You're actually one. You're using a ton of core strength.
Speaker 1:When you're doing your pull-up, and in different positions, you're going to have to use different aspects of your core stability. So if you've only trained using your lats in a seated position while there's a bar over your legs, you haven't gotten in that habit or that skill of being able to stabilize your core. So even if you were to work that lat tower to the point where you could pull more than your body weight with a lat pull, there's a great chance. Give it a real number I weigh 180 pounds. Let's say I'm doing 220 on a lat pull down, you might think that person is going to get a pull up. It's actually a great chance that they don't get the pull up.
Speaker 1:So the main thing that I've always applied when I'm teaching people to get to a pull up is that we're same principles still apply of progressive overload, but we're going to apply that specifically to a vertical pulling pattern on a pull-up bar by regressing the movement to less challenging variations and then, if you will, the goal then is to move up that continuum of movements towards the most challenging. In this continuum we are going to end at the pull-up but, unlike a lot of people think that the first place is not going to be a lap pull-down just because I am going to criticize Huberman of this later. Let's present both sides, though. Lap pull-downs in rows, even a horizontal, are not completely useless in terms of, you know, working towards your first pull up. They're going to lack the specificity, so I don't think they'll get you there. But if you wanted to argue that, like in a phase prior to really focusing on your pull up, that you did some lap pull downs and some rows, you know, particularly for hypertrophy, to build up some back muscle, that that might help when you got into a new phase and focus specifically on your pull up, then then you got me. I think some lat pull downs and rows can have, you know, a purpose in the process towards getting your first pull up, adding some muscle. But so yeah, obviously, obviously more muscle is going to help. But if it's a serious goal that you actually want to get your first pull-up, then we're going to have to actually be a little bit more specific so that the carryover is more direct.
Speaker 1:So step one in getting your first pull-up is going to be actually first just practicing hanging from the bar. Referring back earlier, that's the position that I like to call the poor man's chiropractor. A lot of good things happen there and when we are in this process of trying to build up to your first pull-up, I think just a good general goal before we move into step two. You're going to strive for roughly one minute in just a hang position. So grab the pull-up bar, hang and one.
Speaker 1:Note that this one's actually a little bit technical, so bear with me. But we want to make sure that we're actually retracting the scapulas a bit while we're hanging, so you're not letting that your joint get pulled. We want to keep a little bit of tension in the upper back, retract the scapulas, holding in a position as if we were going to take a pull up. We were going to take a pull-up. You're going to get actually some good, surprising development, I think, for your back muscles by just hanging. You can actually make some pretty decent gains here, believe it or not.
Speaker 1:Grip strength is also going to improve a lot. So again, doesn't matter where you're at when you start off, don't be discouraged. Your grip is going to pick up very quickly if you devote dedicated practice and particularly if you focus singularly on this. Don't waste energy on other training goals for a little while, and you'll recover quite quickly and you'll actually get to that 60-second hang. I've seen it happen pretty quick. I'm not going to give any time parameters on it because it really does depend on how much time you have to practice. But if you deprioritize all your other training goals for a minute, this can be done in a couple of weeks pretty easy from almost a pure zero.
Speaker 1:So step two then we're actually going to progress now into a hold. We want to do the hold in the top position. Now you can kind of think of, as we've mastered that bottom position of the pull up, the lats are stretched, um, your grip can now take that. And now that you've got that down, um, we're going to practice the top position of the pull-up. So this is, you know, helpful to use a step or a box, so you obviously don't have to make that pull-up to get to the top. But now we're just going to hold and the attempt here is hold your chest to the bar, retract your shoulder blades so you're almost going to feel like you're trying to touch your chest to the bar and then similar process here we're going to work to increase that time that we can hold that position with our chest up, shoulders retracted, and this one you're not going to need to progress nearly as far as the hang.
Speaker 1:If you can get to the point where you can maintain that position for about 30 seconds, then you'll be ready to move step three, which actually you will have already been getting a little bit of practice in, because when you're doing that hold at the top, well okay, step three is an eccentric. An eccentric that's just the negative portion of the lift, that's when you are lowering or the muscle is stretching. So obviously, every time that you executed a hold, you probably did an eccentric to get back down, which all that means is, then you just would have, you know, slowly let the weight of your body overcome your muscles and then just allow yourself to transition from the top hold to the hang, just doing that one negative rep during the hold phase. That's going to be your first exposure to eccentrics. We can also just call them negatives, that's it. You know, if you're not a fitness enthusiast, you wouldn't have heard either term. So take the scientific one. But if you're not a fitness enthusiast, you wouldn't have heard either term. So take the scientific one. But if you're a lifter or a fitness hobbyist, you're probably already familiar with negatives, so we might just go with that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so in step three we're actually going to do focused negative work and now you're actually going to start programming these like you would program any other strength work. So we're going to start at a low dose. You know, maybe you're working sets of two, move that up to sets of three. You know, eventually you're going to progress this up to sets of five, the way you are going to do multiple reps on an eccentric, though you want that step nearby. So use your step set up in the top, hold, allow yourself slowly to come all the way to the bottom and then use your step to get back up.
Speaker 1:We're not even going to attempt the pull just yet. Between the hanging, the holding and the eccentrics, you've basically learned all of the skills that you need within your core to stabilize every part of this movement. The only piece that we have left out is what's called the concentric contraction. So three phases in your muscle contraction Concentric is when the primary muscle is shortening, eccentric is when the primary is lengthening. And isometric is when it is neither lengthening nor shortening. So obviously we've already done the isometric work and we've already done the eccentric work.
Speaker 1:The last piece to add. Step four this is where we're going to finally add the concentric portion of the pull-up. Um, and there are. There's an order kind of to the the best here. Um, so we're either going to be doing partner assisted pull-ups you're either going to or assisted pull-ups if you're doing them in the gym and they have that machine or, and distinctly, the third option here would be the band pull-up. Tell you why I have them in that order.
Speaker 1:Skilled spotter is by far the best because if you have a skilled spotter, if they've been working out with you for a while, they probably know your signs of fatigue, how you're pushing. They can help on the way up as little as necessary and that can vary set to set based on what is needed and then they can also remove any assistance for those eccentrics. So if you have a skilled and competent spotter, you're going to be able to get full range of motion reps with great form and the absolute minimum assistance that you require in order to get that done. If you're working out in a gym that has one of those machines with the assisted pull-up, that is going to be your second best option here. It's not as good as having a skilled spotter, just for the simple fact that it's just a stable assistance throughout every single part of the lift, through the eccentric, through the concentric, every single inch, exact same assistance. So a skilled spotter can provide a better stimulus than an assisted pull-up machine can.
Speaker 1:Band is in last place because it now is a variable resistance. So if you think about when the band is stretched it's obviously providing more assistance than when it is not stretched. So when you're on a band you're actually getting the most help at the bottom. So the band is stretched the most there you're, at the bottom of the lift. It is giving you the most assistance when you are trying to come out of the hole. Just in terms of power and developing that concentric. That is the exact worst spot to have. Your goal is to develop strength. You want the challenge in that exact spot and you also want the challenge actually at the lockout. So, anyway, just the strength curve that the band is giving you is not ideal.
Speaker 1:But the reason I included it even though I don't like that is this is just one of those like real life things where I have seen people learn pull ups using bands. So I don't want to just shit on it or say it doesn't work because, like, it totally does work. And then I also think the reason that I have seen it work so often is, you know, one of the places that I see people learning pull ups the most is down at Muscle Beach. I'm in Los Angeles, as you know. The original Muscle Beach down there in Santa Monica is a place I've been working out for years, seen lots of people learn pull-ups, and so, yeah, out there on the beach, actually, skilled spotters are available, but some people are antisocial, some people don't want to mix it up, whatever. There definitely isn't an assisted pull-up machine out there. And so, yeah, I'm just telling the truth, I've seen tons of people learn pull-ups with just the progressions I talked about here and bands Going to wrap it up in a second.
Speaker 1:But again, I just want to reiterate that I've seen people do this a lot. But I also work out in one of the most famous outdoor bodyweight calisthenic gyms in the world. When I go into the big box gyms that I also go into in other places, I think one of the big reasons that a lot of people haven't been able to get their first pull-up is they don't have the process down, been able to get their first pull-up is they don't have the process down. They're typically starting with lat pull-downs, like we mentioned, and you've got to get a little bit more specific skill if you're ever going to achieve that first pull-up. So, anyway, that's it. That's my piece. If you've never gotten a pull-up, that should be your training goal right now. Make time for it. That's not you. Send this to somebody who needs it. Let's get them going, um. So anyway, I want to transition and actually talk about ag1 athletic greens, that is, you know supplement that I have taken at one point. Um, it's one of the biggest sponsors of health and wellness podcasts and probably won't want to sponsor this show after this segment.
Speaker 1:But a quick note and not to be too sanctimonious, but that is actually why I appreciate and enjoy being independent. I'm not beholden to saying anything other than what is my best current understanding. This is a product that I was using at one point, so obviously at that time I might've said something different, but in light of all the available information I have now, I'm not really capable of saying what I would have said two years ago. I personally just have a hard time selling things that I don't believe in Not proud of it, probably my worst job ever. I actually had a door-to-door sales job and I made the mistake of Googling my company and I landed on the Better Business Bureau and I just realized that we were a really terrible company and after that I just really started to suck at sales. I had actually been pretty decent at it prior to that. I knew how to sell a system and obviously a lot of my co-workers continued to sell systems.
Speaker 1:There's a set of techniques that you can use when you're in a sales situation. They don't work 100% of the time, but they work enough of the time that, almost like a checklist, there's a certain set of skills that you can learn and this is something that even why I have this show it kind of made me my own time in sales actually made me a little bit toxic of the pitch. There isn't really any company that I've worked for in sales that I didn't grow to not enjoy, and that's probably you know in fairness, because I'm sure there's people out there who love their job in sales. I'm sure, if you believe in the product that you're selling, that it's possible to feel that way. I never had that experience, so, unfortunately. I never had that experience. So, unfortunately, I have a set of skills where I can spot sales pitches. I know how to do them very well and I still you know, weird idealist in me. I strive for a world, you know, full of products and ideas so good that they don't actually require marketing or sales.
Speaker 1:But anyway, dr Rhonda Patrick she put out a video critiquing AG1. Background on her she has a PhD in biomedical science from the University of Tennessee. She completed her postdoctoral fellowship in nutritional biochemistry oh, and that was at Children's Hospital in Oakland Just want to shout that out because I got friends and family up in the Bay and her work focuses on the interconnections between micronutrient deficiencies, aging and age related diseases. She was asked for her opinion on athletic greens and I just thought her framing was really good. She was basically saying it's a multivitamin. Her issue was the framing of it as greens or a green powder. But she says if drinking your multivitamin is how you prefer to do it, go for it, but if you think you're getting additional benefits like a serving of greens, that's almost certainly not the case. She pointed out that there are minuscule amounts of the nutrients and probiotics that are promoted and it's a bit like a drop in the ocean, unless if it is functioning as a placebo, then cool. But that's the inconvenient thing about listening to people like me. If you don't believe in it anymore, then the placebo effect is inert. But yeah, no, anyway, it really is not a replacement for greens or fruit. It's not a superfood. If you're using it as a multivitamin, that's great.
Speaker 1:Last time that we had discussed greens I think that's kind of where I was at, run back the episode or call me out if I'm wrong, but I was using it as kind of a cover, my ass amendment to make sure that there was no key nutrients that I was missing. Since I've stopped drinking green powder, I've made a personal best on a deadlift. I've improved all my mile splits. In fairness to Athletic Greens, I don't think it's reflective of anything except for my training programming my training programming, sorry, and my increased focus on those skills. But I only highlight that to just say that discontinuing Athletic Greens, I don't think it negatively impacted me in any way and I'm not sure it was adding anything to my situation while I was using it. So anyway, that's my current position on greens powders and, yeah, I think Ron and Patrick kind of nailed it. If you're taking it as a multivitamin, that's your expectations, that's what you're getting into. Cool. If you think you can pound some athletic greens and skip out on vegetables, yeah, I don't know if that's a solid thought.
Speaker 1:The scientists in the field were saying, yeah, so we did an episode on Huberman recently, but so I'll admit, I was actually having some conversations with some friends in Oakland and I didn't realize this, but actually I was like two degrees of separation away from some of the people that were mentioned in that New York magazine. So anyway, that was just funny. I'm actually not going to wade into that aspect of Huberman. I said that last episode. I'm not interested in his relationship or relationships. In his relationship or relationships.
Speaker 1:What I am interested is he is, you know, I think, the face of you know, neuroscience, possibly like health and wellness. He or at least in the public's eye right now, like he is the position of science in a number of fields. So I think that there's a responsibility that he has as that person. So anyway, I want to put all that out there, just because whenever you're critiquing somebody who tops in their field, there's always that I think there could be an interpretation of malice on anybody critiquing them for any number of reasons. So you know, before we jump into him again, I just want to say that I'm kind of speaking on him because of his success and because of the responsibility that I think comes with that, and again I mentioned it on the episode. But reiterate too that I listened to a bunch of his early episodes and so I don't have any reason to think that anything I'm about to say or highlight, because some of this is coming from other folks. But I have no reason to think that he's not intelligent enough to understand absolutely everything that we're about to hit on here. So, as he does have the biggest platform, I just hope he chooses to use it in a way that can advance science and not just the products and brands and affiliations that the show invariably will pick up with its success. But anyway, they're preamble out of the way.
Speaker 1:So there was a recent clip that Huberman tweeted. It was from a larger episode, like a three-hour episode that honestly I don't think it was new, but for some reason the tweet kind of sparked a bunch of scientists and actually they really did have some fun quotes. So it was a matthew hill phd in behavioral neuroscience uh, university of calgary. He has studied the endocannabinoid system for over two decades and he said holy fucking shit, it is actually disturbing how inaccurate the overwhelming majority of what is said here is Peter Grinspoon, a physician, massachusetts General Hospital, instructor at Harvard Medical School, and then he wrote a book Seeing Through the Smoke. A Cannabis Expert Untangles the Truth About Marijuana. So he said does anybody know what drug he's talking about? Ryan Marino, board certified physician, medical toxicology addiction medicine.
Speaker 1:So in response to the Twitter clip he said 20 minutes of made up nonsense. Almost none of it true and the episode as a whole makes no sense. It's absurd. This man is considered an authority in science communication. So I've got more. There's still more scientists saying funny things, but no, I think we should probably get into what he actually said. That got them so upset. And yeah, that's again.
Speaker 1:Most of what I'm trying to really highlight here is that for somebody who is now the authority in science, that there is a standard that he's going to have to live up to, as if he's going to carry that mantle, and so what he said that was bothering the scientists First. First was that this was fun for me. I had to learn a little bit too on this one. So, um, you know, no point being sanctimonious, uh. But so in his information he was mentioning you know often the distinction between sativa and indica strains, something that potheads have been doing for a long time. But that's actually not part of current science.
Speaker 1:The term, as I also just learned, is varieties, and the reason or justification is that there aren't really good examples of pure indica or sativa strains in modern cannabis, which has been crossed many times over again. Full disclosure. I used to grow cannabis myself on a perpetual harvest system that I modeled after Dutch indoor cultivation. This was in West Hollywood, california, so you don't have to tell anybody it was all good. But I just mentioned because I have a little bit more folk knowledge on cannabis horticulture consumption and all of that than the average bear. And yeah, so I have also used indica and sativa. But then when I was actually fact-checking to see who was right me and Andrew or the scientists the scientist reasoning is actually pretty solid. I do know my genetics and strains pretty well and then one of the examples they were citing was how you can even take a cannabis cup winning strain like, for example, ak-47. It has won both Best Indica and Best Sativa in different years.
Speaker 1:So the distinction, although anybody who has smoked pot is going to be well aware of it myself, who grew it and used it for a long time, also had that distinction. No, the facts are pretty clear and actually the description of strains is pretty nebulous and it's a moving target Strains that were once considered indicas or considered sativas at various times, and vice versa. The main point not to throw away our use of strains. It's fine in an informal conversation or at your dispensary, but when you're having a discussion about the science, um, it's not appropriate. Um, because, well, huberman starts to make claims about cannabis based on its distinction, on whether it is indica or sativa and those not being, uh, scientific categories, um, it again. This is why, in the eyes of the scientists, these amounted to, you know, nonsense, um, or word salad was one of their favorite ones, um, and and specifically what they were citing.
Speaker 1:So he made claims that you know about the strains as he used and they don't like that term but how it would alter memory or appetite based on those factors. And to all of those questions, none of those mechanisms are known. They are being studied and nobody knows any of that. The terminology is, admittedly, a holdover from stoner culture, find an informal conversation not appropriate for a scientific one. And then to me, just kind of ironically, because he's using the language of stoner culture.
Speaker 1:But then you know, huberman does offer many outdated cannabis stereotypes, you know, one of them being that it will almost always cause memory problems. This is being studied currently and that's not what the scientists say. Short-term memory loss has been noted, not long-term memory loss, according to available literature, and it does not shut down the hippocampus, an important component for memory functions, for memory functions. So yeah, I do want to be careful here because I'm not a scientist and I like the critiques that the scientists are making. We need to present both sides of any unknown issue, but I think most people are probably aware of the idea that cannabis might be associated with memory loss. I don't know if people are aware of the other side which we just mentioned. I think that is presenting the other side. Oh, another one it'll always cause the munchies. So again, that's a pretty commonly and long held stereotype.
Speaker 1:First let's go to the anecdotal. I've been cruising around 10% body fat for almost two decades while consuming cannabis the whole time. Munchies is not a problem for me. Further study require, I guess, but no, people are actually studying this exact issue right now in rats and nothing definitive about the mechanism driving hunger. They do see it in subjects which are rats, but they don't know what mechanism is driving it in rats. So it would follow that they also don't know what's driving it in humans. But no, it certainly isn't everybody.
Speaker 1:And also, fairness to Huberman, I think that again, this is an example where maybe this is fine in an unscientific discussion, that that's a heuristic smoke pot and you'll get the munchies. That's true often enough that I think most people are going to be able to live their life by that rule. So I don't think it's like a massively egregious error in that regard, but kind of getting back to like, why are scientists, you know, mad with Huberman is that Huberman is the celebrity face of neuroscience and even possibly science, health and wellness at large, and there are many people in the disciplines that he talks about who are speaking up and upset with how he oversteps the available data to weave a compelling story about the topics of his show Back to the scientists. It drives the majority of us insane. When you go to any neuroscience conference, when someone mentions huberman's name, everyone sighs and rolls their eyes. So that's matthew hill. Uh, phd, neuroscience um, university of calgary, um, ironically, also studied the endocannabinoid system for more than two decades, or did we already? Yeah, yeah, we already mentioned him, but yeah, I guess he's mad. He's been doing this for 20 years, um, and then, uh. So now we got one from linda clumpers. She is university of vermont clinical pharmacologist. Um, she says huberman uses jargon and phrases that are related to how cannabis compounds work. So it might sound impressive and legitimate, but what he and again, people aren't just like being prickly and picking at errors.
Speaker 1:Huberman has a responsibility to live up to with the stature of the position that he has worked his way into, and it's impossible for him or anybody to be definitive or all-knowing about everything that he's going to cover on his show. On his show and if you're here listening to Mind Muscle, you're also savvy about how most of the media ecosystem is formed, and particularly when you start signing deals with WME, it's not conspiratorial to suggest that there are products and other interests that wind up weaving their way into the stories of every single show that's backed by that much. So, anyway, I actually see him as having an opportunity here. He has a massive platform. It's about to get even bigger.
Speaker 1:And actually, don't take it from me, I'm not a scientist. As a steward of science and an academic, it's imperative that the statements one makes are factual, based on evidence and put into the appropriate context. Linda Klumper's, again, when something is uncertain or nuanced, you must disclose opposing opinions and provide support for those arguments with data or clarify you don't know about a certain topic. So anyway, that, linda Klumper's, you know, finishing up there. So anyway, that, linda Clumper's, you know, finishing up there. But that is kind of what me and the scientists that I am can choose to either be on the side of science or be on the side of telling stories. And his story isn't written yet.
Speaker 1:So anyway, I'm going to continue to be hopeful that you know, maybe once you get paid and you and you get your kind of fuck you money, um, you eventually just kind of stop caring um and he can, you know, actually be what, what he, uh, you know, markets himself to be of, um, this popular communicator of science. Um, I, I liked some of the early episodes, as I mentioned, mentioned. I've learned some things. So I understand somebody being a fan and getting positive things, but I do think somewhat of his intelligence and ability could be doing even better and really hope he does. But just one random dude. So who cares? In some regard, right, but anyway, last thing I want to talk about was so there's an article I came across in the Atlantic like the title the FAD Diet to End All FAD Diets, and it was all about the intermittent fasting trend.
Speaker 1:First thing I found interesting was it was trying to pin down when the intermittent fasting fad began. Pinned down when the intermittent fasting fad began, and so they pinned it at 2015 or 2012. I'm not trying to be a hipster, I actually kind of remember getting into it a little earlier than that. I came in, if anyone else remembers this, there was a blog, swedish model turned power lifter. His name was Martin Beckran and he had this blog called Lean Gains in the early 2000s. And 16-8 was the protocol popularized back then 16-hour fast, eight-hour eating window. And what made it interesting to me at the time was that, if you guys remember kind of like the gym culture anyway, in the early 2000s, the popular idea back then was actually like five or six meals. You wanted frequent meals to stoke the metabolic fire. You know that was the way we did it, and so when I came across lean gains, I was actually like terrified of going 16 hours without protein, because I had been indoctrinated at that point in my life to believe that that would completely destroy all the muscle that I've been working so hard for.
Speaker 1:For me, some of the benefits that I got it merely doing lean gains or intermittent fasting back then in my 20s made me generally less dogmatic about nutrient and meal timing. Prior to that I really was. Post-workout meal was also super big to me. Um, I think I still hit that then and it's still important. I don't want to completely minimize it. I just I thought, um, it was my religion for a while and, um, but uh, yeah, you don't have to be as tight as I used to be with the macros and the timing and all that stuff post-workout, um, so yeah, lean gains positive experience. It may be less dogmatic about nutrient timing, uh, meal timing, um, and then also you know technically true that it maybe helped me balance drinking and partying and being lean in my 20s in the interest of presenting both sides. Could also have been the fact that I was in my 20s, but I guess we'll never know. It did not survive my party phase though, as my go-to, my party phase though as my go-to nutrition strategy. And anyway, enough about mine.
Speaker 1:Uh, the article was citing you know 2012, michael mosley, with the 5-2 protocol, as, like, the origin of the fad. Um, I disagree on, like my insufferable fitness hipster um bit that you already heard. Um, okay, one more. We were definitely aware of like 5-2 and a whole bunch of other protocols, even in the early 2000s, um, 16-8 was chosen for lifestyle factors, kind of tilting towards the partying thing. Um, but whatever, I'm actually willing to admit that maybe they did their research and maybe Google trends say that 2012 is when it, uh, you know, morphed out of my you know little subculture. Um, but now also, both of us are wrong on years when you consider that Bernard McFadden was popularizing, you know, fasting in the early 1900s and he was also not the first person to do it. But anyway, part of why I started there was that's kind of.
Speaker 1:The only thing I disagree with this article on Main point was that intermittent fasting remains one of the most popular fad diets, in spite of mixed evidence at best. We've talked about that here. The article reiterated that there's some short-term studies showing weight loss. The long-term studies are not good. So, as far as the other associated or asserted not associated, the other asserted benefits would be what do they say? Improving insulin sensitivity, cardiovascular health, alzheimer's, parkinson's. Even the people who did those studies argue that, though fasting is broadly favorable, whether people who fast over the span of years would ever accrue the health benefits seen in animals also remains undetermined, determined.
Speaker 1:Um, obviously, you can obviously understand why people that are dealing with health issues are going to seek out, um solutions for it. I just don't think the evidence is as strong as people say. It is, um, what it was actually really focusing to those is why I actually don't even want to relitigate this today. So, um, yeah, I'm not going to spend as much time debunking fasting, but I kind of want to more focus on why is it? Why does it continue to be popular? Why do people find this to be an answer to their various health problems, or at least find it one that they're willing to entertain and try? And you know, frankly, what's interesting in the article says this is that one it's uh, it's hard Um, that that's kind of why it's uh, popularity is somewhat surprising, because this isn't easy to do. But, um, you know I I think it is intuitive for a lot of people to assume that pushing your body to its limits is a good thing, because it is a good thing in a lot of contexts.
Speaker 1:But whether you're working out or whether you're setting up a diet, you have to keep in mind that the extremes well, it's definitely possible to even have too much of good things. It's not a singular principle to just maximize or go to the extremes. Extremes are always going to seem, more you know, more effective, because more is better feels intuitively correct. But you know, as we know in countless ways, that's not always going to be true. One other aspect that something that's difficult is going to give you is it actually does build in-group status to followers. The discipline that it takes to finish is often glorified or even moralized in communities that promote fasting, and obviously, before it was ever used for nutritional shows of faith, it was used in religious practice. So it has a long history of basically just demonstrating one's in-group status. This, I think, is a big part of why it continues to be popular throughout the ages. In a sense too and I don't want to relate it again science not confirming its benefits is partly why, or at least it's signaling that there's other reasons why people fast besides the health benefits.
Speaker 1:Maybe the point of fasting isn't health at all. Most people are going to do it and maybe they see results. Maybe they don't, but either way, surviving a test of will is proof that the mind can overcome the body. And earlier in this episode you would have caught me saying on pull-ups you know, reaching for things that are difficult is a good thing, right? Well, this is why we got to have some nuance and subtlety with everything.
Speaker 1:Part of our chase for optimization with health, I think, can naturally lead to a place where we're trying to achieve some form of transcendence through these means, and I don't want to label it good or bad, but I think it might be a misuse of the practices. That's all that I will. If those are things that get people attached and into the practices, then maybe I got to create a little bit of space and allow for that. But I don't know if that's really what we're striving to do is create groups and tribes of workout and nutrition people. But anyway, one point all this, I think, was actually pretty well covered in the article, but one point that I just wanted to add to the discussion because there was a time when I was actually promoting fasting to my own clients and using it myself.
Speaker 1:My favorite line back then was it's not about what you eat, it's about when you eat. And that line worked a lot when I was selling people on fasting, for a couple reasons. One, I was in good shape and I was saying it and it also, more importantly to me, it appeals to what we want to be true, that what we eat doesn't matter, that what we eat doesn't matter. People love it. When a guy with people wanted to be true that you could be that dude at the party with the six-pack throwing down beers and yeah, not the six-pack that anybody can buy at a convenience store, you know the one on your stomach and yeah, it's like literally the image of every beer commercial. So when I was that 20 something guy telling people about fasting being the secret to live that lifestyle, it was something people wanted to hear, so they believed me when I said it. You know it for others, because that's not other people's goal, but for others I think it also.
Speaker 1:It kind of promises like improvements to nearly every single aspect of your health without actually changing anything, and that's also obviously something that we would like to be true are difficult to get out, because the best stories and the best commercials anybody here, and myself included, understands the techniques underwriting every single one of them. The only problem is that they're not true and they don't work except for selling products. So the I do deeply understand the appeal, um, but no, it's frustrating to me, and this is at least something I'm trying to, not just complain about, something I'm trying to help out with in my own way. But the fitness industry and journalists have made people so confused about what to eat that they just want to throw up their hands and give up. Um, and I actually don't think that's the individual's fault. Like I said, I think that is the fault of the people who have been covering this and popularizing it to the public.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, I don't want to be or even sound like one of these podcast warriors, because I have the, have the self awareness to know I am also a part of this space, so I am just trying to use my, my very limited part of it to to put out a different message. And again, this is it. This is why it bothers me. Um, what you eat is important. It's incredibly important. Anybody that tries to tell you it isn't. It's not that they're wrong and I'm right. They're not setting you up for your best health. That's why it's frustrating. I generally wish well on everybody. I hope their livelihoods are good and all of that. The only frustrating part is that it's just not good advice. For most people, what you eat is really important. It is far more important than when you eat.
Speaker 1:I went through all of this myself because, again, the information ecosystem we live in leaves a lot to be desired. We live in leaves a lot to be desired. That was my arc, I don't know, 10 plus years. But if I could get in a time machine and go back, I actually probably would slap that 20-something version of me and actually not because of the fasting thing, though, because of how he used to talk to clients who were parents and so anytime. I would actually love to go back in time and punch myself when I was talking to some parent about fitness advice. That would be really fun. And yeah, actually there's literally nothing that 20-something version of me could do about it. He would just have to take it on the chin and then shut up. But anyway, I know I beat up on fasting a lot. I'm not anti-fasting, used it myself, guided other people through it.
Speaker 1:I just don't like talking about nutrient timing with anyone who doesn't eat mostly unprocessed foods, have a grasp of their current energy balance. They've got their macronutrients dialed into their current goals. They're only drinking like coffee, tea or water. They got that sleep down seven to nine hours. If you got all those things in place then I would love to talk about nutrient timing with you. What I again get sick of is something that I think should be reserved for advanced fitness goals or goals that have nothing to do with fitness becoming the front row top page on all of the health publications. So anyway, I hope that clears up why I've been kind of fixated on this issue. I like that article. It's in a great publication that's going to get out. But yeah, that's all I got for you guys today. So just to sweep back and summarize so if you want to get better at pull-ups assuming you've never done one four-step process hang, hold eccentrics or negatives, get your partner, your assistant machine or a band those four steps are going to get you into your first pull-up.
Speaker 1:Athletic green supplement that I used to take I think it's good to kind of think of as a multivitamin. If that's your favorite way to get a multivitamin, drinking it like that, keep it up, but just don't think that it's replacing greens, if that's what you're getting it. For. Andrew Huberman, he was upsetting the scientists. I'm more on the scientist side with this one. He's got a lot to live up to with the platform that he has built. And, yeah, I hope that he takes the helpful criticism from the scientists in the fields he's been talking about and I hope he takes their message to heart.
Speaker 1:And yeah, last but not least you least, obviously I've done my latest fasting takedown, similar thing, and I'm not just trying to be like that formless guy who splits the issues. It can be useful for some people in some context that this really isn't the page one news for health and fitness that people might have. You believe it is if you're checking in on the fitness space. But anyway, guys, in some ways, just to that point, I'll keep up with the fitness space a little bit so you don't have to um, but no, you know I don't want to attach to that too strong. You should be fact checking me, keeping me honest, uh, informing yourself on the space as well, um, commenting too and letting me know what the hell I should even be looking at Um cause I do. I love when you guys push me um to keep learning, but anyway, remember, mind and muscle are inseparably intertwined. No gains without brains. Keep lifting and learning, I'll do the same.
