Inverting the Pyramid of Success (S2:Ep12:Part4)

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Boss Emily Chambers
Coach Bishop
Coach Castleton

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:22

Welcome to our Ted Lasso talk, the Tedcast. Welcome all Greyhound fans, welcome all you sinners from the dog track and all the AFC Richmond fans around the world. It's the Lasso way around these parts with Coach, coach and Boss, without further ado, coach Castleton.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Okay, welcome back, beautiful people. Thanks for joining us as we discuss Ted Lasso, season 2. It's Season 2, right? Yeah, Season 2. And this is Episode 12. And this is Part 4 of our continuing discussion. This is something sorry. It's Inverting the Pyramid of Success, which is Episode 12 of Ted Lasso, the finale of season two. This is our fourth part. I am your host, coach Castleton. With me, as always, is Coach Bishop.

Speaker 3: 1:13

Here to represent the pro panda lobby.

Speaker 2: 1:17

Oh, I love it. I love it. That's something that stuck with us. That comment by Boss, that's lasted. That was a she didn't wait. Wait, was it you or was it boss?

Speaker 3: 1:29

oh, the fact that it shouldn't have been changed like yeah, no, I started it, but we got, we, we vibed on it oh, that was you.

Speaker 2: 1:35

That was you. That was like I don't like this line. Yeah, isn't that funny, god, what it's not like me to give boss extra credit. That's uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know, that's man I'm getting. I'm softening up. I'm, of course, speaking of our boss, emily Chambers.

Speaker 4: 1:51

You definitely shouldn't have given me any credit, because it's finally 70 degrees in Chicago and even though it's way worse for the sound, I do have the windows open. I can't not have the windows open. I'm really sorry. I need to.

Speaker 3: 2:04

I think anyone living in Chicago should be excused for any weather adaptations at any point in the year.

Speaker 4: 2:15

Chicago weather, why it's hilarious though I last night was sitting on my front porch, not my front porch, my couch in my front room front room, as you might sometimes hear it we actually do say that it was raining a little bit, it was warm, it wasn't quite dark, the streetlights were on. I was like, oh so this is the thing, as miserable as it can be for most of winter and early spring. Every once in a while you get those magical days and you're like it doesn't matter, I would put up with all of that. For this. It also september, april, september doesn't matter, the rest of it that is a benefit of having seasons yeah, yeah, there is.

Speaker 2: 2:55

That is that like oh yeah, you, you know when you got a good day. It's not, there's no question about it, although it's funny because, uh, I lived in los angeles for a long time. And it Although it's funny because I lived in Los Angeles for a long time and it's so strange, now there's humidity in Los Angeles. Things are changing. What is it in Qatar right now? Or is it Oman? Where is it? Where there's a? Have you seen like they've had more rainfall in the last two days? Six inches of rainfall, which is in one day. If you look at their national airport, the planes look like they're in the lake.

Speaker 2: 3:29

Because there's more rainfall in one day than in their entire year typically. So five inches of rainfall fell yesterday, an additional one today, and so they don't know they're like what. What is what is happening? I've been watching, oh sorry no, no, no, it's just, things are changing well, so yeah, yeah it's just kind of amazing there.

Speaker 3: 3:54

I mean, I'm sure I've gone into some version of this rant before and I won't go too far into it, but I, when I moved to la, one of the things I talked about being awesome about living in LA is no mosquitoes Like I. Actually I remember, so you cannot lie to me and tell me oh yeah, you've mentioned this. You cannot tell me this, yeah, and so I'm like we have, like, moved habitats with our bullshit.

Speaker 2: 4:20

Yes, what do you think? There are mosquitoes in LA now? Yeah, when I came to visit I was like wait what? I remember that bit and I'm like, aren't? I in LA.

Speaker 3: 4:30

No, yeah, it's crazy, and so I've been watching. My viewing patterns are so insane. But anyway, I've been watching these documentary episodes. First I did our universe, narrated by Morgan Freeman on Netflix, and then now I'm doing our planet. I think our planet too. Anyway, whatever, I'm just geeking out over here like nobody's business, but the reason I bring it up here is how clear it becomes, like the dominoes of our environment.

Speaker 3: 5:02

And so people like you see the picture of the polar bear on the piece of ice. It's like, oh so sad. It's like, oh no, oh so sad for you, motherfucker, because that ice wasn't supposed to melt like that. Now there's more water than there's supposed to be. Now there's more rain, but only in certain places. I mean, I don't want to say that al gore already fucking told us to knock it off, but he kind of of did. And like, when you watch this it's horrifying, because it's like it is us, like there's no question it is us. We have broken the earth, we are, we are. We have broken it and we're going to pay for this shit. I should say we're going to continue to pay for this shit. We're already paying for it. Anyway, get ready for the refugees. It's totally crazy. I was reading.

Speaker 2: 5:52

Some local person said hey, I'm moving here, I'm about to move to the Boston area, I'm about to move from London. What's the weather like in Boston? People responded like, hi, I'm a person from, I'm a to move, uh, from london. What's the weather like in boston? And then people responded like, oh, you know, hi, I'm a person from, you know, I'm a brit who moved to boston. Uh, the boston weather is, um, is like london weather, but just like a lot better. And I was like wait, what? What? Because, because we have four good days a year, right, right, right you know what I mean it goes from from frigid to swel and then, like four amazing days, and it used to be September.

Speaker 2: 6:28

It used to be oh yeah, september is the beginning of fall and that's when it's going to go down. No, no, no, Now that's also. It's Miami in September, it's like late October now the whole thing is. It's insane. All right, Ted Lasso, we're going to jump right in. Thank you for for queuing here reminding us, boss, I appreciate that.

Speaker 4: 6:50

Where where we left it. I just felt like what is more fitting for a show about optimism and belief than to talk about the rapidly declining state of the climate in the world and how, how wildly inhospitable it's going to be shortly Believe.

Speaker 3: 7:12

I'll tell you what I get heated when it comes to global climate warming.

Speaker 4: 7:16

Oh Jesus, see, see, this is what happens.

Speaker 2: 7:22

I can't believe. I'm laughing at that. Okay, jesus, what a day. Um, all right, so where we left off was uh akufo and francis uh entering the owner's box and keely greets them, and then we get this like super daunting uh camera move. We just don't have moves like this. I looked at this, I rewound this like four or five times. It's the out of focus back of nate's head, like you're in nate's hair to start, and then you rack focus as you come up over the top. And what's he looking at here, coach?

Speaker 3: 7:56

he's looking up at john wooden's pyramid of success, which right, he's been hanging behind ted since minute one that went up in the first sequence of setting up the office right, yeah, crazy.

Speaker 2: 8:09

And then we, we pivot to, we see him from the front and and walk us through this scene. Uh, here coach absolutely so.

Speaker 3: 8:17

He's staring up. Um, roy comes in, notices what the fuck's that about is the look over the beard. Beard is reading inverting the pyramid sort of gives like a shrug ish motion. Shakes his head a little like I don't fucking know. I love the two of them. Still don't need to talk like they're so dialed in that it's like a whole conversation just happened behind nate. He has no idea. And then Roy moves on and in comes Ted. Good afternoon afternoon afternoon. All right, y'all good to go on running Nate's false nine today. Yeah, and Nate, we have here this. Well, you'd be fools, not to. I thought I heard you'd be false, not to Like he was trying to be clever, but I could be wrong.

Speaker 4: 9:11

You thought it was an instant Carmel situation, I think it might have been or something. I don't know.

Speaker 3: 9:17

I thought I heard false, though, and I was like what's he doing there At any?

Speaker 2: 9:21

rate. It did sound like that, but the closed captions say you'd be fools not to.

Speaker 4: 9:28

Well, what I noticed was that he said you'd be fools not to instead of.

Speaker 3: 9:32

We'd be fools not to. That's a great call. That is a great call Flipping that around very quickly. I once got busted messing around that I had been messing around with this girl I was supposed to be messing around with back in the day because we were talking about going to wherever we were all going and the two of us were going to travel together and I said, yeah, we'll meet y'all there. And as soon as and the dude later was like we'll meet you. And I was like fuck did I say we? He's like you, said we bro no you got busted out so easy.

Speaker 3: 10:12

I totally just gave myself away. I can still remember that's when I was a bartender, I remember and I was like, oh, we'll meet you guys there. And then later on the guy was like we, huh? I was like shit, yeah, anyway, not the point of the scene, but it just made me think of it.

Speaker 4: 10:28

I love it. I really like it. I love it.

Speaker 2: 10:31

I want to hear more about that. That sounds great, all right. So yeah, we ought to give it a shot. I mean, what happened? Why? What happened? What happened? What happened in the? What happened between the last time we saw Nate and right now? Like what, what? What is going on?

Speaker 3: 10:49

At this point he's I mean, we've already he's for me, at least he has had this yearning to be a bigger deal here. This, this should be, really all be about his brilliance. And so when he's like, oh, you'd be fools, not to. It's sort of it's a fake. I mean he probably doesn't recognize it, but it's like a fake confidence, it's a brand of arrogance. That's like, oh, I'll save you all again. We've all worked with that person. Maybe you've been that person, in which case please don't do that anymore. Where you like, oh, how would this organization run if I didn't work here? It's like, just fine, go hit, go get it by a bus, like who cares?

Speaker 2: 11:38

and I'm just fine we're, we're, we're, totally, I'm, we're tonally off today because I'm making, I'm giving, I'm giving boss extra credit. Coach, coach is telling people to get hit by a bus. Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 4: 11:52

I haven't, I haven't mentioned any sort of murder yet.

Speaker 2: 11:55

No, that's true, no.

Speaker 4: 11:57

Well, that would be on brand.

Speaker 2: 11:58

But listen, boss, coach and I, due to the chemistry of our brains, are unable to track things in sequential order. When did we see? I'm serious when I say something happened to Nate in the offseason Since we've seen him last. I don't think enough attention is paid to this particular turn, to this particular turn, and God. We've gotten some lovely reviews from people who are just fascinated with Nate throughout the whole show, who disagree with our take, and let us know it via the ratings. But what I'll say is I take a lot of umbrage with the trajectory for Nate and it feels like a huge you know, because, because we're out of sync with it, every time we feel like we're ahead, they give us this beat and then we're actually behind. Or then every time, oh okay, now I see what's happening, but then it's three more beats before. So I just almost feel like his arc is messed up right now. I'm like what? What happened? What inciting event made him turn into fucking dracula?

Speaker 3: 13:07

see, I think it's actually, I think it's actually a continuation, but we didn't necessarily know what we were looking at at first, and so he had this yearning right for paternal approval, whatever you know, however you want to frame that, and there was that, the feeling that goes with it of I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough, right. Which is why when he gives his big speech in the make America I mean make America, make Rebecca great again episode that certainly not make America great again, but the make Rebecca Great Again episode we all I literally shed tears, which I shared on this podcast. It was an amazing moment, but from my own journey I know that it's true that the hole he's trying to fill doesn't get filled that way, and so he wants to feel better. He's trying to fill doesn't get filled that way. He wants to feel better, he wants to feel like a big boy, he wants to feel strong, he wants to feel approved of whatever it is.

Speaker 3: 14:17

For a while, the Ted love was serving that, but it's a bottomless pit. It's a bucket's a, it's a bucket with a hole in it, it's all the things. So you can't fill it, yeah, and? And so now he's like all right, it must be, because these guys are screwing me and I'm the real genius around here and if I were in charge at richmond, I would finally feel different, which is incorrect, but yeah, you would believe it, which is incorrect, but you would believe it.

Speaker 4: 14:45

Right, but that is what he believes. I just, yes, building on that, I think that there is a type of person who, when faced with the reality that they are not for a lot of people, like whatever this was. I feel like there are TV shows that are movies, that are bands, that are people like. This is a thing that is not for everyone. Um, I talked to you guys about the TV show brain dead, which is about alien slugs who, uh, infect the minds of politicians and sometimes they sing musicals. That show is not for everyone. I left the shit out of it. So brain dead. They sing musicals. That show is not for everyone. I left the shit out of it. So braindead.

Speaker 4: 15:27

The show needs to either know who it is, what it is as a show and like, what it's going for and what it wants to do, and who its audience is in order to be successful, and people, in the same way, have to accept that not everybody is going to love them. Nate could have done this thing where he was like well, I am a brilliant football tactician, so that is what I'm going to lean into. I'm going to figure out how to do that, and instead he's so focused on getting the adoration and the approval and being popular that he is not leaning into who he actually is as a person. Like not all of us are going to be ballerinas, sometimes we play Cheshire Cats and you just need to learn how to figure that out.

Speaker 3: 16:07

I love that and I feel like it leaned into a couple of different things, but one that's jumped out at me is the whole idea of the shadow. Like I've been looking at it, anyway, it's who I am. I've been watching some stuff about Carl Jung Leave me alone, do what you want, anyway, you're a nerd, anyway. But but the whole idea of like, embracing our whole self, embracing our shadow, and Nate has not yet gotten to the point of an observation I made recently of somebody I know personally, which is there's nothing cooler than somebody who knows that they are not cool. Yes, yep, right, I mean it's, you know I'm trying to think of, like, a good sort of like universal example. I don't know Elvis Costello, I don't know who, I would say, but like somebody who you, just, you just know that in their life they get that their coolness comes from. I'm not from everybody, not for everybody.

Speaker 4: 17:09

I mean, um, I'm gonna throw out there weirdo yankovic because I'm pretty sure a hundred percent every person alive likes at least one of his songs. Oh, yeah, you might not consider yourself a fan, but he did one thing one time that you liked oh yeah, no, no, that's a great, that's a great example.

Speaker 3: 17:26

And he's not like, oh, here's my opus, or he, oh, this is my christmas album. No, no, no, he's weird out. Baby, if you want a fucking pun wrapped in a music video that'll make you laugh, he is your dude. And if that's not what you came for, don't't go to Weird Al. I mean, that's a perfect, perfect example of what I mean. Nate doesn't know who he is yet. He's saying love me, but he couldn't tell you who the me is if you made him. He doesn't know who he is yet.

Speaker 4: 18:00

Yes, he is, at this point, the very opposite of Beard. Beard knows exactly who he is and he doesn't need anybody to love him.

Speaker 3: 18:06

That's 100%.

Speaker 2: 18:09

So, yes, I think you're all. I love everything you guys are saying. So at some point in the last couple days, Nate decided to rat out Ted. He decided to pull the trigger on that. Then he decided to pull the trigger on that right. Then he decided to be a like a prick, like a total prick, which is how he's acting. You know you'd be crazy not to like he was. There was a beat in the huddle where everyone threat, said they're going to find the rat and kill him, and his reaction to that is not to like exude humility. You know his reaction is to double down into like complete douchiness and you and you go wow, like this is like it's like the wrong decision on every law. And I also think he thinks that Beard might be onto him.

Speaker 3: 19:08

Well, yeah, I don't feel like Beard. I don't feel like Beard did his best job of hiding the fact that he's onto him. Certainly, and I actually hadn't thought about this. But in a way does Beard essentially saying I know it was you, fredo force Nate's hand on, so like if Nate was kind of, I'm angry, I'm in, I'm out. Does beard saying I know it was you, fredo, mean, well, I'm out now.

Speaker 4: 19:42

Yeah, right, I better get the fuck out of here, because, but I'm not long for this world once he tells or once they all decide you know, come, come with the bars of soap so I don't want to uh jump ahead too much in this episode, but I think one of the things we will learn is that Rupert talking to Nate at the funeral might have been one of the things that changed for Nate recently and one of the things that would impact Nate's understanding of his future at Richmond.

Speaker 3: 20:18

Yeah, good point, so maybe that was it.

Speaker 4: 20:22

Maybe at that point he was like fuck this, somebody else is interested in me, I don't need you ted yeah, that's rebecca.

Speaker 3: 20:30

Certainly, rebecca certainly noted it. And and whenever there's a fisher like that in an organization, you can definitely get in there. You get in the person's ear and add to that. If you add to the like, you're the real brains of the operation. You're the where's that fucking guy? No, I mean any energy like that that you receive. Um, you know he's scrolling through. We know how he scrolls through um x, formerly known as twitter. Um, just almost compulsively. So he's probably soaking up a lot of that information and seeking it frankly, because he wants to feel like the big deal, right. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:11

So, all right, so you're right and you know. Credit to Rupert for having that innate ability to find the crack and drive a wedge. You know, like just having some people just know they know where to apply pressure. You can't teach it. Uh, there's a, there's a little girl in my daughter's fourth grade class who is like a, it's like a master class, watching her pit people against each other and you go, oh my god, like the, it's so bad that the other mothers warned us when we went to the school about this. No shit, yeah, they're like oh, just be mindful. Be mindful because she's, wow, she likes to pit, she likes to, she likes to, uh like, hoard humans and then throw them against each other in a battle drum. So, oh my god, my daughter didn't get caught up in it, thank god.

Speaker 2: 22:02

But like that's fourth grade, no one's right, that's in the, that's in her, that's, you know, no one's teaching. It's not lectures that she's watching on youtube. It's like she just knows how to, how to move people around. Um, yeah, so, yeah, we ought to give it a shot. Why change it now? Uh, roy says, and uh, higgins rolls up and did you get kicked out of your office again? No, temporary reloc. Temporary relocation while they changed the carpet in there, it was absolutely covered in dog shit. Why was that boss? Why was it covered in dog shit?

Speaker 4: 22:30

Because Higgins gets down.

Speaker 2: 22:32

That's it. Okay, nothing to do with barking in palace, I'm guessing.

Speaker 4: 22:38

All right, no, they had. They had new mascot dogs.

Speaker 3: 22:41

Also I and I think this is relevant for this scene who could be further from nate in this moment of arrogance and narcissism? And me, um than higgins, who, like, gives up his office to the to, to dr sharon, who then like, yeah, yeah, we're gonna have this dog shit over my, my office, I'm not gonna make a fuss about it. Nobody even fucking knew till I chimed in on this conversation. I've been here working in the. I've been working in the gym like he is across right now from bench press doing whatever it is he's supposed to be doing, his head of football operations like he is devoid, yeah of the me of ego.

Speaker 2: 23:29

Yeah, by the way, I I don't want to, I don't want to backtrack too much, but, um, I had a visceral reaction to nate looking at the pyramid of success and and here's the here's where it comes from. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fuck you, you don't get to look at that. Ooh, say more. It's just this thing where I'm like you can't use the force. Like, if you're going to use the dark side of the force, you can't pretend you're a light side, like don't look at you know what I mean? You can't use a Jedi holocron if you're a Sith, like go fuck yourself yourself. That is for good people and you can't even read it. It's like a white man can't jump, but he's like you can't hear jimmy, oh no, no I can hit, you know.

Speaker 2: 24:07

You know what I mean. It's like no, no, you can't. I know you're looking at that pyramid, but I promise you you're not reading what like I. I promise you you are not getting what john wood is laying out.

Speaker 3: 24:16

Well right, yes, I agree with what you're saying and I think it's important to remember that these lessons can be applied in negative ways, like they're not intended to be applied in negative ways, but like I used to tell people all the time with you know, when I use stuff that I've created whatever, listen, I do the same thing the bloods and the crypts I just do it for their good, like that's you know.

Speaker 2: 24:48

So like I literally say the same thing every day.

Speaker 4: 24:52

That's really funny yeah, obviously.

Speaker 3: 24:53

Obviously, that's really funny, but you know what I mean. So, like, as I watched him, I was like, oh no, like it is so dangerous to have this understanding in the wrong hands. I guess was more my reaction.

Speaker 4: 25:11

So this is going to be shocking to everyone? Probably not. I don't think that he was looking at it, thinking like number one I'm going to study this and use this to my advantage or number two that he was looking at it. What I thought he was looking at was like that doesn't understand the full picture.

Speaker 2: 25:31

Isn't that quaint? Not even isn't that quaint but, like this understanding is incomplete.

Speaker 4: 25:39

This lesson that you're trying to teach that isn't going to work in the real world, or this isn't like't going to work in the real world, or this isn't like. There are all of these issues where that might be what you are going for, but you do not have a full enough understanding of how people actually act in order for that to be successful you know it's really interesting and the pyramids got a lot of different elements.

Speaker 3: 26:01

But in terms of what you're saying and the pyramid as a representation of that holistic, you know, character building version of how we're going to get things done is nate is all head in terms of football, it's false. Nine it's park, the bus, it's whatever. Like he is not the, the, the coach at this point, like roy roy's attraction to coaching was you're not in the locker room with them, you can't. You can't look them in the eye, right, like he like to nate. He's like, look them in the fucking eye. Like you are pawns, move where I tell you, do what I tell you when I fucking tell you and that's it. And so, yeah, I, I, I get what you're saying. I think he would. I think he would look at that and go. They still don't know what to do that's a great take.

Speaker 2: 26:59

And, coach, you've talked about how the top of the pyramid is uh, what is it competent?

Speaker 3: 27:03

it's competitive greatness, but he said later on love yeah that love would be at the top of the pyramid which is fast.

Speaker 2: 27:10

I'm sure that's what. That's exactly what nate's, oh yeah yeah uh ted about the? Uh the carpet full and being full of dog shit. Ted says, oh yeah, I've been there, done that that made me.

Speaker 3: 27:20

There's always lies that crack me up, and that was one of them. Where, where I'm like why, ted? What do you mean by that? I?

Speaker 2: 27:27

promise, why just dunk it all over your car. No, no, no, you have not. I doubt that. I doubt that. Well, anyone else got anything they want to talk about before we head out there?

Speaker 3: 27:38

Yeah, I could use some advice. So it's Roy, and everybody turns like, oh, is it happening? So we go hold on. And then, roy, are you saying you want to become a diamond dog? Fuck, no, I'm just saying I wouldn't mind being in the room whilst it fucking happens. And this is quite Ted, because he could be like, well, either you're a diamond dog or you're not. But no, no, no, no, yeah, okay, well, how about a one-time visitor's pass for our junkyard dog here? Yeah, and everybody votes with Barking and Howls as one would, as a diamond dog, obviously Completed with the wolf Diamond Dog, obviously Completed with the woof Diamond Dogs mount up and, yeah, I gotcha.

Speaker 3: 28:32

Oh yeah, I gotcha is running over to Higgins because we're going to try climbing through the window again, and this time Higgins is like I think I'm just going to stay put. Okay, good idea. Yeah, like I love them both. Sort of like going back over and going yeah, that's not going to go. Well, Forget it. Forget it. You live, you learn, you live, you learn right. Thank you, Alanis. That one got me. Beard doesn't skedaddle very much, but he's skedaddled up and out of you know at his own pace and much like Boss.

Speaker 2: 29:07

You can't imagine Boss skedaddling, for you know.

Speaker 3: 29:10

Yeah, that's actually true, unless she deems it skedaddle worthy right. Yeah, I see you moving with purpose, but not like oh, I better rush over there. Yeah, unless Boss deems it worthy.

Speaker 2: 29:25

Then I can see her skedaddling all the way you know, timbuktu and back, but only like that's for Beard. That was an appropriate. He was like oh, let me grab that Like zip. He was up and up Even though Nate was closer to the door. All right.

Speaker 4: 29:38

Yeah, no, that actually makes sense. I don very, very quickly because it's silly to me to not do that. You should be wherever you're wanting to go. You should be getting there faster, as fast as possible.

Speaker 2: 29:52

Yeah, but whatever right, but you're the one deeming that speed appropriate. It would be the same in reverse. If someone said slow down, you'd be like why would I do that? It's not even the rapidity of it as much as who makes the decision. So Beard, who is more than happy to leisurely read his book with his feet up on the desk, hops up and then yes, coach, you live what you learn. You get a little Atlantis joke there and keep going.

Speaker 3: 30:22

All right, roy Bark away and he leans forward, puts his chin on his hand. I mean he's ready, let's get some boy talk going. All right, remember, I told you I had to do that photo shoot thing with Keely. Yeah, we got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I know I said I fucking hate doing those things and I do fucking hate doing those things. I do fucking hate doing those things. But in the end they didn't use a single picture with me in it and it hurt my feeling, one of the funniest moments for me. I I I don't know why I say hurt my feeling, but I guess it's just just the lack of familiarity with this kind of talk that he would say it incorrectly.

Speaker 2: 31:09

It has one feeling. Is it like when?

Speaker 4: 31:13

Sprite labeled its cans as with antioxidant Just the one Like antioxidants were big, so they were like we got it.

Speaker 3: 31:23

We got it. That's funny. So, yeah, they're like we got it, we got, we got it. That's funny, so yeah. So, um, this in terms of his progress, I think it's such a big moment for roy and, yes, it's funny, but I think it's important for us to like this vulnerability. This is the guy who we met, like this vulnerability. This is the guy who we met first of all, jesus Mary and fuckface Joseph, and then who came into the locker room and glared at Ted with the Roy Shire eyes. So for him to now be standing here amidst a Diamond Dogs meeting sharing that his feeling got hurt is just such a long way from where he started. So I just want to highlight that I don't know why they chose the single feeling. It is funny, it's just such a long way from where he started. I just wanted to highlight that.

Speaker 2: 32:06

I don't know why they chose the single feeling. It is funny, it's a great line, I think about it all the time. But it's like in his journey, having too many plural feelings might feel like too much of a bridge too far. So he's like, okay, I have a feeling and this hurt it, and that's it.

Speaker 3: 32:30

So, as everyone's oh, yeah, okay, yeah, I get it. Then we get Higgins In year five. I was not allowed in the class photo because I developed a rare smile allergy and Ted rolls with it. Oof.

Speaker 2: 32:47

Ted rolls with it and then looks at Beard and Beard goes not the same situation and shakes his head. Ted also says to Beard like I don't. And Boss, what does Beard say here?

Speaker 4: 33:01

Sorry, I'm not. What am I looking for?

Speaker 2: 33:03

No, no, no, he says not the same situation, it just feels like a you line.

Speaker 4: 33:07

Oh, not the same situation I was looking out for the. I don't know why I was expecting a swear word, but I immediately went to wherever the asterisks were. That's really funny and I'm like, no, I'm seeing nothing.

Speaker 2: 33:26

If you want me to say a line, just, it's so funny that Higgins is like, well, here's my whatever. And then Ted himself he hears it, looks at Beard, shakes him off like the third base coach, and then Beard goes not the same situation, like he's going to redirect us back on point, because that's the first. It's. So we talk about like rerouting the or derailing the conversation and Roy like finally has opened up, and then Higgins says something that has nothing, absolutely nothing to do about with the I don't want to say re-railing, that sounds dirty somehow but um, there needs to be.

Speaker 4: 34:14

If you've ever hung out with people where the point is to get stoned and talk a lot, you need to designate one person as the air traffic controller, and they're the ones that are like okay, so we're gonna get back to this story three tangents ago. We need to circle back to this thing that we never finished shocking about Wow, mm-hmm, see, there's order there, I like that I was assigned that task when I was hanging out with a couple of grad school friends.

Speaker 4: 34:47

Once but one time they took too long and before I could get back to telling them whatever it was, I had shoved an entire piece of pizza into my mouth. Now it's Chicago square cuts, so it's not. It's not a big slice, but I had. So, whatever it was, I just had to like point and keep pointing until I'd eaten enough and then I could tell them what was going on.

Speaker 2: 35:10

Got it, got it. Now it seems like it seems like a good job for someone who does not have ADHD. Not, not the, not the same situation. And Roy continues Keep, keep going, coach.

Speaker 3: 35:20

The thing is she. She looks so fucking great on her own without me, so natural I it would have been actually. It would have actually been fucking weird if I was in the pictures and then, at Rebecca's dad's funeral, jamie fucking Tartt tells her he's fucking in love with her. So that gets big reactions Whoa, doc and um, that's what. And he's still alive from aard, which is a reasonable response. Because what? Yeah, instead of beating him to death, I fucking forgave him. He can't forgive himself for forgiving him, and I'm still fucking furious about it.

Speaker 2: 36:07

So, wow, I thought that was kind of a. I know Roy, it's good that he's sharing, but I was like, oh, I Like it's one thing to share I wasn't in the picture and kind of hurt my feeling it's another thing to be like, hey, this guy that we all work with is a dick. I was like, oh, wow, like it's such a weird. I think he's like did he get carried away with the sharing or is?

Speaker 3: 36:33

it?

Speaker 2: 36:33

oh, I don't think so no, no with the way these guys share, I know, but they they have a vested interest. So the first one, the response is ah, fuck, that sucks, sorry man. The second one is like it could affect the other dude's job because these are his like managers well, it's already affecting the other dudes.

Speaker 3: 36:55

Everyone's affected. Like they take don't shit where you eat to places we can't even fathom. So jamie doing it affected everyone, potentially roy now knowing about it like he could not tell them and everybody could wonder what the fuck Roy's problem is too. You know what I mean. Like I think I don't think his sharing it in this setting is where that went off the tracks.

Speaker 2: 37:22

I guess it's not off the tracks, but I don't see them as the same exact sharing type of thing. One of them is like sorry man, that fucking yeah, one is all him.

Speaker 3: 37:31

Yeah, I guess that's true. One is all his to share his yeah, right.

Speaker 2: 37:35

and then I'm like okay, that's really, that's good. The second one, when he was like, oh god, I was like jesus dude, like whoa pump the brakes, like he's like, and that fucking prick up interesting. Oh my god, like that it hit out there Interesting. Oh my God, like that hit me hard that that was the next thing Interesting.

Speaker 3: 37:51

Yeah, I didn't have that reaction, but I get you.

Speaker 2: 37:53

Ted goes. Hey, thanks for barking at us like right away and I thought, huh, man, you should have let him Like if that was number two, I wonder what the fuck number three was gonna be. You know, I'm like Jesus Christ, he was on a roll and for the purposes of not making this go too long, you know, like not having a you know endless episode of the Diamond Dogs, Ted just, you know, sort of cuts it off right there, but I don't know. Anyway, I'm curious.

Speaker 3: 38:22

I'm curious, bosses take, because I mean I'm hearing you now and I'm like OK, I mean I don't. But that was not my reaction at all.

Speaker 2: 38:32

You didn't notice it in the moment.

Speaker 4: 38:33

Right, yeah, that's okay, yeah, that's all right.

Speaker 4: 38:35

Yeah, there was a bit for me that I mean you said that that wasn't necessarily Roy's secret to tell or whatever, but Roy played a role in it. Like there's a part of that that what Roy needed to tell people was my girlfriend's ex-boyfriend hit on her, so like that is a thing that happened to him a little bit. I feel like, jamie, don't hit on your coworkers, girlfriends, if you don't want them telling your co-workers the shit you do. Like there's a part of it that I I'm just like well, you did what you did.

Speaker 2: 39:15

You guys are so funny. I love it.

Speaker 4: 39:16

You're both shot like hey you, you, you did it, jamie don't start, none won't be none, don't start.

Speaker 4: 39:23

Yeah, man, like I know I know I don't know what to tell you, dude Like you did that. Um, the bigger issue for me is that part of what it sounded like Roy was upset about was that Keely didn't need him, and I think that this is something that men struggle with a lot that they need not need, but that the idea of their partners being wholly successful outside of them to the point that I think who was it I want to say that it was Ethan Hawke was talking about how Uma Thurman like was super successful and kill bill and her career was going well Like I don't know if she was nominated for awards, but people love the shit out of her and he, well, like I don't know if she was nominated for awards, but people love the shit out of her and he was like in the meantime, my career was stalling. That's obviously going to have an impact on our relationship and I was like why wait, wait, wait, hold up? Why?

Speaker 2: 40:20

no, I'm with you. That doesn't compute for me, but but I'm sure maybe if you're both, I guess, if you're in the same field, maybe that the obvious sort of you know, difference between your career trajectories might be, you know, cause consternation or something. But I mean, yeah, we talk a lot on this podcast about how much we love when people truly are excited for someone else succeeding. We just talked about it last episode about how happy Roy was we were saving that champagne. Should we open it? It's like no, he was genuinely so excited for her that she's going to be a CEO, she's going to have her own company. You can feel it. We love that. If you apply it to the example about Ethan Hawke, you would say, yeah, no, he should be satisfied with Not just satisfied, he should be happy, excited, yeah Right.

Speaker 4: 41:17

And this is going to be something that I will touch on a lot later but I think one of the ways in which we don't teach emotional intelligence is that you can have a feeling about something and that doesn't require anybody else to do anything about it. It would be nice if people were able to listen to your feelings. But if you're pissed off about something and I didn't actually do anything, you're just pissed off because I don't want to date you. That hasn't really happened. But like if you are only pissed off because somebody doesn't want to be your friend, like they didn't really do anything wrong, they, they are allowed to choose who they want to be in relationships with and it might hurt your feelings and that sucks and you have my sympathy on that part. But you can't be pissed off because the girl at the gym didn't want to go on a date with you.

Speaker 2: 42:06

Like the girl at the gym, didn't want to go on a date with you.

Speaker 4: 42:07

I mean, I can, you can, but what I'm going to say is you being pissed off about that thing doesn't require action from anybody else.

Speaker 3: 42:13

You're hitting on a lot of buttons for me here. I'm trying not to have this episode go five hours, but you got an incel rant coming your way and you got a don't speak ill of the dead rant coming your way. You're touching on some stuff here.

Speaker 3: 42:29

No well, yeah, I'll be quick on the incel one being the more recent. So I joke about it sometimes. But I really don't get the incel thing Like. I do not fundamentally get how this became a serious conversation, how this became a thing that we're really addressing in the world.

Speaker 3: 42:54

If no one will fuck you, you've got to go figure out how to be fuckable, like people who are the most invested in this, like, oh, only the strong cells survive. Fucking. Pop a mint, hit the gym cop some gear, get your fucking life together and someone will fuck you. The bar is outrageously low out here for fucking. Let's just be honest, right? So if you're not clearing that bar, that's on you, bro, that's on you. Why you going to shoot up the whole fucking town because nobody will fuck you? Do you think that's gonna be the magic bullet? Now? Literally now somebody gonna be like whoa, I wasn't in home before, but now that he shot my auntie in the leg, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna fuck. No, you're gonna, I don't. The whole incel thing is fucking crazy to me. It is pure insanity that we're having a serious conversation, that there are men who are aggrieved and feel that the rest of us should be providing some sort of fucking remedy for them, for the fact that no one wants to recreate or procreate with them. I don't get it.

Speaker 4: 44:09

Yeah, I mean, I think that it has. I agree with everything that you just said and, just to be clear, I think that the insult movement has focused on sex. What this actually is is a group of mediocre white men who two or three generations ago, would have had a successful career and a family maybe not a super happy one, but in the fifties, when women needed men in order to survive, somebody would have picked it.

Speaker 3: 44:37

That's interesting.

Speaker 4: 44:38

So what they are actually the cause of this is a loss of status, because they used to be good enough and now they aren't. The measurement has changed and they are pissed off that their C-level work isn't getting A grades.

Speaker 3: 44:54

That's really insightful and I saw an article I'll see if I can track it down, I'll even share it in the community that was talking about in this generation, in terms of heterosexual relationships, that men and women are drifting apart, relationships that men and women are drifting apart and that in part that's because of women basically progressing sociopolitically, blah, blah, blah, and men not. So it's very, it's, it's very in line with what you just I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty much the premise you just presented that yeah, they're just sort of like here I am above ground in macaques. What's the problem?

Speaker 2: 45:31

I don't know, yeah, I would. I would say that, um, I think we use incel as a uh catch-all for a lot of different things. So there's like different types. And if you're saying, uh, the someone who's going to shoot up anything right away, like goodbye, good, you know, you, I have no sympathy, I cannot get on your wavelength, I don't whatever. If you're gonna resort to violence, if you're gonna resort to injury, I don't have any. Uh, there is nothing for I got nothing there for gotcha um, but I will say that, um, boss, is 100. Everything you guys have said is a hundred percent Right.

Speaker 2: 46:10

I just think we need to step back and look and take a, take a look at why and I have sympathy for these men yes, by and large, a lot of mediocre white men, yeah, right, yes, yes, um, that will eventually become a lot of mediocre black men. It'll eventually become a lot of mediocre Hispanic men. It's not limited to white men. It's just that we're the first, we're at the highest stage and we're going to get knocked out. It will affect all men. Until men begin to improve is a tumbler um. This is why we talk about how there are uh, amazing female role models now all over television, uh, and film, and there are not that many, um, amazing male role models that don't resort to violence, that don't have violence as a component of of their, their system, their ethos.

Speaker 2: 47:06

So it's easy to just you know, sort of just you know, you know disregard these guys or say like, oh, fucking, it's not as easy as pop a mint for some of these guys. Some of them have mental illness, some of them have you know, it's like, again, I don't know, I just feel badly for anyone who's alone, anyone who's alone and doesn't understand it, and anyone doesn't have the right parenting or the right peer group or the right. You know, when you're alone, it is, it is, it is. It is so debilitating and and then you start to constrict and you start to play the blame and shame game, you know like oh, you play the blame and shame game.

Speaker 2: 47:46

You know like oh you know who's at fault for your thing. And, yes, if you have the advocacy, if you have the agency to jump into a gym and say you know what, Like, maybe I'm not, maybe going to gym isn't going to get me laid or whatever, but it might make me feel a little bit better. I've been reading about, you know, it's all of these little things, but it's not in and of itself. The reason we know about this now is because it's a pretty big thing. It's. The numbers are notable and once upon a time you're right they could, you know, sort of hover around the edges of society or whatever, and women needed them. Now women have choices and are wisely using them, and so you have this segment of the population that feels uh, you know where we're fucked up when we let them get credit cards.

Speaker 3: 48:38

I said it then, I'll say it now.

Speaker 2: 48:40

God damn it listen, that was only 1974.

Speaker 3: 48:43

Yeah, yeah, no, it's 50 years baby it's 50 years now that's why it's on my mind, because I've been seeing stuff. I mean it yeah, so, yeah, no, she doesn't need you because she shouldn't have needed you. Then, like, what part of the like and this goes for a lot of you know, in my day kind of talk is like a lot of things people point back to. I'm like, yeah, because the world was fucked up, like they say it as if like, uh, the good old days when a woman needed. I'm like you mean, when women put up with abuses none of us would even want to know about, so that they could, you know, have a roof over their fucking head, then that's what we want to.

Speaker 3: 49:23

I think there's a lot of um, there's a lot of romanticizing a time when the it wasn't that there wasn't pain, it's just that certain people weren't having to experience or deal with the pain. And now they're like, oh wait, there's a problem here. No, there's always been a fucking problem, bro. There's always been a problem when that woman wanted to be able to I don't know buy the skirt or pants or jacket she wanted to buy and needed to go ask her husband couldn't open a fucking bank account. Like that was a problem. You just weren't inconvenienced by it. In fact, you were empowered by it, so you didn't see it as a problem. It was always a problem a hundred percent, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 50:09

Um, yeah, here's something that I noticed uh, not not long ago, uh, when I, when I became a father uh, coach, you and I, we each have, we each have uh children. Uh, boss, you have nieces and nephews. I remember thinking that I would do the. The bulk of my hard parenting was to protect my daughters from the patriarchy and the forces out there that were out to get them and stop them from being who they were meant to be. And as I parented, as I became more of a veteran parent, I realized, oh, no, no, it's equal, if not more difficult, to raise good boys in this world, because the patriarchy automatically conditions them to be part of the patriarchy and make all the wrong choices. So it's not enough to just say, oh, I've got to protect my girls. It's like, no, no, no, wait a second, you've got to raise good boys. Not enough people raise good boys. They still, they still don't.

Speaker 2: 51:12

I look at the kids that my, my children go to school and then I'm like, no, even our generation who should know better? Right, they just for, um, you know gen z and alpha. It's like millennials. I, I do not think, missed it. I think millennial parents are are on it about raising boys way, way more than gen x.

Speaker 2: 51:36

I it kills me to say that, but I do think they they have a, have an idea, but that's it's a huge, huge part of the problem and that's a structural shift. And the incels we're talking about are older than that. They are right now the people that are not able to find mates and that sort of thing, and our companionship or friends or peer groups or whatever. They don't have the skill set. So, yes, it's a huge catch all term and I don't want to say that like I align with their values or anything like that, but I I think anytime someone's alone, my heart bleeds a little bit and I wish there was a better system for them to be, you know, sort of welcomed into a community that can accept them and if they're willing to change and if they're willing to sort of evaluate their, you know where they are.

Speaker 3: 52:22

I want to toss out, and I'm serious actually, that you have exemplified curious, not judgmental thanks coach.

Speaker 2: 52:34

Yeah, right, I mean it only because it's come, I get. It has a human component to me, because every time we think, okay, it's so easy and it's I, I, I'm so, I am so guilty of this. Uh, whenever we think about a group of anything, it doesn't matter Republicans, let's say right, my mind automatically goes to like Marjorie Taylor Greene or something you know. I think of the worst possible and I go no, no, no, don't think like that, think of the best possible Republican. You know like, there's this judge that took us on a when we went out to Montana. There was this Republican judge that took us out on a we went to city slickers thing.

Speaker 2: 53:06

This guy was the, the best human being. He was a wonderful man and they had never voted blue in his life. Unthinkable it from where he came from in his life. And he was in his late 70s when I knew him. He's he's gone now, uh, passed away. But um, all he.

Speaker 2: 53:22

I remember him telling how hard he tried to protect. He would see these criminals come in and you'd have to send you know like mandatory sentences, and then he would see these criminals come in and you'd have to send you know like mandatory sentences and then he would sentence them and he'd go back in his chambers and cry because he could not save, he had to, and and you know what I mean. It's like this was not a bad man. Yes, he was a different political parties in a. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 53:41

Anytime you think about any type of community that you might not align with right, you have to say, oh, are we going to think about it, about the worst? It's so easy to go to the worst segment of that, the worst 1%. But we and yeah, we don't we have little in common with those people in that worst 1%. But then you think of everybody else and you're like there's, there is middle ground there, there are places where we can come together again. It's just difficult and we're conditioned to be oppositional in the modern era just that it doesn't align with what I believe individually.

Speaker 4: 54:33

but I think it has become so reductive and so not for the original intention or point, that now it has become sort of a if you can't say anything, nice, don't say anything at all, and I'm like, well, that's terrible advice because a lot of the times you need to say the not nice shit in order to get problems fixed.

Speaker 4: 54:52

I think when you say be curious, not judgmental, and it is not applied to a very specific, when you are introduced to a new concept, idea, person etc. Then it becomes a let's never call out anything bad, ever. You cannot perpetually be curious. You have to at some point draw a conclusion based on the facts in front of you, and I'm not saying that you need to only look at two or three facts. You can consider all of the information. That's relative, but at a certain point you can't just say well, there's no way of knowing, we'll never know. I mean, is the jury still out on Hitler or are we able to judge and say that guy was bad?

Speaker 3: 55:35

I think we can all agree he was an okay artist.

Speaker 4: 55:40

Well, the dog pictures were not terrible. It's always Sonny is telling me the truth.

Speaker 3: 55:44

No, no, but yeah, I hear you, I definitely Again you're picking the worst 1% as your example.

Speaker 2: 55:52

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think the nature of the. I think you're saying that the meaning of that term has changed and you don't like the way it's changed. Yeah, in and of itself, it's not a bad philosophy. It's just that at some point someone has to make this is, this is again. Uh, we'll get to it next, next season on, uh, on ted lasso, but uh, you will hear you will hear me talk about decisiveness quite a bit um.

Speaker 3: 56:19

I thought of that too, yeah I, I, I think, yes, I'm, I'm with you. I'm with you, boss, in that, like in the deiI work I've done people will you know, oh, you have to be accepting. And so then, like it's almost, like it almost feels like people are being taught to just live in this sort of like middle gray nothing's good, nothing's bad, there is no right, there is no wrong, there is right, which is not the same as saying, um, I have this view of x moral issue thing we should do at work. Whatever you have a different view, I disagree with that view and I can see that you're a separate human being with a separate lens, with a separate right, all those things. And I think, at its core, for me at least, I should say this I didn't know Walt Whitman, so in terms of how I heard it and experience it, it's more about keeping in mind that there's more to it than that point of disagreement.

Speaker 3: 57:34

So, coaches, you know so, when coach says that about incels and mine was, you know the definition of reductive I get where you're like. Well, you know there are people who might be using that phrase, who really might be looking around the world and going. Well, I've been told to be this one way, but now it's another way and I'm just and also I'm lonely and I don't have the vocabulary to even express that, never mind Do something about it. And thinking about how to, not even thinking about how to do that, just leaving room for the fact that that might exist, which generally, once people get on my nerves to a certain degree, I'm like no, no, I get it and I and I have, I have to own that.

Speaker 2: 58:16

Yeah, no, no, it makes. And also, you know the world too. You know, on behalf of white people, you do dei stuff and you're like, oh, what a hassle, right? You don't think like, yeah, well, but you have, you have reduced me. You know, you are, you have, it's not. It's like, it's like getting pulled over. Oh, hope I don't get a fucking ticket from this asshole. It's not like we're gonna die, so it's, it's the. The stakes are very different. Um, in cells I'm 100 with you, coach, and I only when you step back and you see like I don't again. Like I said, if it's is violence or the stakes are very different In cells, I'm 100% with you, coach, and only when you step back and you see, like I don't again. Like I said, if it's violence or injurious, like goodbye, I don't. You know what I mean, I have no time for it. And boss is 100% right that, in the way that the concept has migrated, I disagree completely. I think it's why I love this show.

Speaker 4: 59:12

Be curious and not just one of the many reasons. Um, at least be curious out of the gate. And and boss did say that I agree with that part. I agree with it only is when it continues for your entire interaction with a person, when you say, oh well, we don't know. Uh, you know. When you say that you have sympathy for anybody that's lonely okay, so I have sympathy for anybody that's lonely Okay, so I have sympathy for someone who is lonely. That doesn't change the fact for me that in order to not be lonely, that person needs to adapt to who they are trying to find in the world and whether that means not just going to the gym. Like.

Speaker 4: 59:42

I will again say that one of my favorite tweets of all time was some guy that said incels on Twitter are always saying that you need to be a Chad or a 10 in order to get a woman. In the meantime, the hot women I know all say I would let Matt Berry hit raw. Like people are on Twitter talking about how Jack Black could get it all day long. Like, actually, what you need to do is work on your personality and being a good person and being a caring partner and all of these things. And I am not saying that I don't have sympathy for people who are lonely. I am saying that my sympathy for them. Being lonely doesn't fundamentally change the fact that those are the things you need to do in order to get a partner. My sympathy, you have it. That doesn't change. It doesn't mean that the situation is different.

Speaker 3: 1:00:28

Yeah, I think that's. I think well, a couple of things. But yes to what you just said, boss, and I think what you do with it, from what you do with the loneliness or or spurred by the loneliness, is what the rest of us are discussing. So if your loneliness equals, for example I'm not saying getting online and being on some forum saying I just really don't get what's happening these days, I thought that being this kind of guy would work for me. It's not working. What's going on? Let's discuss. Or I'm really sad about it. Everybody take care on. Let's discuss, or, you know, I'm really sad about it. Everybody take care. Okay, if that loneliness is the spark that leads you to making sure you let women online who don't pay attention to you know that they're really ugly anyway, they're mid, they're very mid.

Speaker 3: 1:01:22

Right, they're mid or whatever you know you're going to do then. Okay, now we're. We're now addressing your behavior that has come from the loneliness. I'm not judging you. I'm not judging loneliness. I understand. I felt lonely. What I am judging, though, is your behavior, and I'm saying that's. That's an unacceptable way for you to proceed, because you feel lonely, and I would toss in, even in the scene where we get sort of the crystallization you know, playing darts with Rupert, ted has come to some conclusions about.

Speaker 3: 1:02:00

Rupert started at the gala yes, it started the gala, and he said you know, you know, roops is a hit minute. If you can call him, tell him to come over. He was basically saying I know what you fucking did. We both know what you did. I'm not going to get into it here with you, but just so you know, I know it was very close to what beer did to nate, now that I think about it.

Speaker 3: 1:02:24

And after the gala, he tells Rebecca. He tells boss, hey, you think nobody else sees this guy. He doesn't say it in these words, but you think nobody else sees this guy's full of shit I do. Now he could have gone over there and said hey, let's be pals, whoopie, doops and play and I'm left--handed, just in case you were wondering right, but he doesn't. He suckers him in, he totally suckers him in and takes him. He takes him like this is like out of, like a pool sharp type movie, this is from the sting. And then, and he does all of that because he has concluded you are a fucking problem, you are torturing my friend and you gotta go. Yes, and I just got you to agree to be banned from the dog track.

Speaker 4: 1:03:17

Yeah, because maybe Rupert was super heartbroken that Rebecca had left him, but he was mistreating Rebecca, so Ted needed to make sure that that stopped. The behavior stopped Right.

Speaker 3: 1:03:27

Right, yeah, and I think I think there's room. I do think there's room for both. But I think we do have to have places where we draw, where we say what we'll accept, what we'll be a party to, what we write, all those things. And I think it's like a kid you could have a kid in's acting out and hitting people.

Speaker 3: 1:03:50

I remember actually, there was one young lady. She had a ton of real issues, like I'm not. I mean, she was definitely going through some things and what I would have guessed unprofessionally you know, non-professional I guess was some like mania kind of a deal. But she was like literally hitting motherfuckers in school. Like this is like this is just not shit that goes on in this school. Like Polypare is just not a place where people are, you know, oh, so-and-so, just hauled off and just fucking belted somebody. It's just not a thing.

Speaker 3: 1:04:22

And one day this rather large football player who she just hit in my classroom turned to me after it was all over because I jumped on it and got her out of the room and blah, blah, blah, and he turned to me and said one of these days I'm going to hit her back and I was like OK, I understand, please, please, try not to actually do that. Um, but I can't ask him. I don't feel in any fairness. I can't ask him to go home and contemplate how hard it must be to be out of control like sure you can that but at the same time I don't want you to hit me.

Speaker 3: 1:05:12

Whatever the fuck's going on in your life, I don't want you to hit me, and I think that's a perfectly reasonable line to draw without sort of being dismissed as, oh, you're not being curious and that's not at all what you did, coach. But I'm just saying in terms of what you laid out, boss, I see what you're saying and I'm with you on that. There's shit that I just find unacceptable. I've thought about it, I've looked into it, I've searched my soul and this is where I landed, and I don't have to keep flip-flopping all around the place after I've done all that.

Speaker 4: 1:05:49

Yeah, shockingly, we agree on this, I will say. The only thing to add to that is you say like this isn't something that we're going to flip-flop on. Definitely, absolutely not. What I would also say is there is nothing within my you know, sort of framework that says if the girl gets help or medication or something else happens and she comes to school and she's not hitting people, we can now say, oh, she's no longer a danger, she has stopped the behavior. The new information says I can feel differently about her and I don't have to be afraid she's going to hit people because she stopped hitting people. It isn't even condemning somebody for the rest of the time that you know them. It's saying as of right now, you're hitting me and I can't let you do that. And when you stop hitting me, we could do this again, but not until then.

Speaker 3: 1:06:36

You know there's a line to be drawn, or, I don't know, a distinction to be made between who you are and what you've done, and this comes up in terms of the conversation of guilt and shame it comes up in a lot of different places and something I've been looking at from a couple of different angles, but I think it is sometimes with the, because even the story that Ted tells is, those guys dismissed him out of hand.

Speaker 3: 1:07:05

They didn't say, oh, I bet he can't play football or I bet he can't ride a bike, it wasn't a thing, it was just like he as a person is disposable, we pay no attention to him. He is irrelevant as a human being, he has no value, and I think that's the kind of judgment, I think that's more the judgment that I, that that I'm invested in avoiding if I can. Um, and it's hard, like people you know you mentioned marjorie taylor green earlier like it is hard for me to hold on to her humanity, like I'm being serious actually right now, because right now, like, right, if you're like you get, you know you get one wish Orlando, what are we going to do with her? She's getting fucking launched into the sun, like that's the end of that. You know what I mean. So like, but you know what I mean. So I think, yeah, it's not easy to separate that, but I think we can judge actions without condemning people.

Speaker 2: 1:08:11

It does feel rough to be not taken seriously, which leads us to our next line, which is, you know, ted finds out that Nate has something to share here. And what does he say here, coach?

Speaker 3: 1:08:28

uh, there's something. Uh, I have to confess as well. So, uh, uh, ted, give him the green light, go ahead, nate dog roy. And they think he's gonna say yeah, yeah he's gonna confess to the, you know, but outing ted. But here we go, roy. When keely and I went shopping the other day, I kissed her and roy, so of course beard is like sweet jesus, this guy, this fucking guy, like that, look on his face. I have been in that meeting where you're like this fucking guy is.

Speaker 1: 1:09:03

He thought it was terrible I mean, you didn even know about this.

Speaker 2: 1:09:08

He's just laying landmines everywhere. He's the worst.

Speaker 3: 1:09:11

He is the worst, he is just the worst right In this moment. So that beard reaction killed me. But yeah. So Roy very nonchalantly says yeah, she told me about it, it's okay. Nate is visibly disappointed that it's okay. I kissed her, I kissed your girlfriend Rory's. Still, yeah, we're good. And now Nate is offended. All Jamie did was talk to her and you wanted to kill him. Don't you at least want to headbutt me or something? You made a mistake, nate, don't worry about it. No, no, I deserve to be headbutted. At which point beard graciously offers I'd be happy to headbutt you. I can do that, and which is what I love about this.

Speaker 3: 1:10:00

That moment and I actually realized that, uh, I, I have a beard, an actual beard character, uh, over the years of my life. That I'll share about that in a second, because it really made me laugh out loud when I realized um, but ted knows beard and ted knows how beard feels right now about nate. Ted knows what beard thought was going to be confessed. Ted knows that this headbutt ain't got shit to do with that kiss of Keeley and he's like oh, you know what? I think that's enough right now. He's like Dive and Dawn's disband, because this meeting is about to become a brawl and I just thought that everybody playing their roles in that I thought was very funny and very true to that moment. But it was fascinating to me that Nate I thought your segue was really sharp, actually, coach, because Nate feels so fucking dismissed right now and yeah, that's a tough, he's got very incel qualities feels so fucking dismissed right now and yeah, that's, that's a tough he's got.

Speaker 2: 1:11:10

He's got very incel qualities.

Speaker 4: 1:11:12

Yeah, oh, yes, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:11:14

Oh a hundred percent, and we're going to be getting into this a little bit later in the episode. I want to make sure I'm pretty sure I mentioned, but I would like to reiterate, when they they're talking in a few episodes ago about they need to get isaac out of his funk and they need a big dog to talk to him, and nate's like oh okay, I'll do it. And everybody laughs. Everybody laughs, to be fair.

Speaker 4: 1:11:36

If I told my boss I'm interested in becoming this accountant or editor or whatever else, and he laughed at me, I would find a new job. If I told somebody honestly this is what I hope for my career, and they dismiss that I would leave that place of employment. I do think that there is a big deal to be had. That Nate said I want to be this. Ted laughed at him and then went and got Roy to do this. And now Nate is like oh okay, well, I'm on the same level as Roy. I, though it's a mistake, I can hit on his girlfriend because he and I are about the same. And Roy's like yeah, no, you're not a threat. Jamie is a threat. Jamie might actually get Keely. You, nate, nobody's taking you seriously.

Speaker 3: 1:12:21

Like it might be a last man on earth type situation. I hate to break it to you, nate. I mean, it is how far Keeley has to work her way down the roster before you're getting the call from the bullpen. You know? No, it's just not.

Speaker 4: 1:12:38

Will Forte would be way above Nate at this point. Also, Jason Sudeikis does make an appearance on Last man on Earth, just in case anybody wanted to catch up.

Speaker 2: 1:12:49

Love it. Roy says wait. So sometimes the fucking Diamond Dogs is just about chatting and shit and no one has to fucking solve anything, and nothing ever changes. He says sometimes, yeah, and Roy says that's cool and turns away, and then they do the fanboy thing. Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. A lot of fist pumping from Ted and then we're out of the scene. I just want to point out. I want to point out we're not going to end. Don't leave yet. Don't leave yet.

Speaker 3: 1:13:14

This scene.

Speaker 2: 1:13:15

We're not going to end this scene. I'm just saying that's where the scene ends, because then we get an overhead shot of the next match. But Um, but uh, ted fucked up big time. Tell me how and why. Big time this happens in my family.

Speaker 2: 1:13:30

So I grew up in a family, um, where conflict was everything Like. I grew up in a family where it was people always ribbing and constant conflict all the time. So I am not conflict averse because I grew up. I can. It's, it's the, it's the literal water that I swam in my entire childhood and formative years. Now I've built a in my own home. I've built with my family and with Julianne. I say myself, but Julianne and I together have built a.

Speaker 2: 1:14:02

She is lovely and smart and kind and principled. She is lovely and smart and kind and principled, and so we have built a family that is based on discussion and conversation and all sorts of very, very generative affirming practices. But conflict still does happen and I notice when it happens. Her instinct because she grew up in a family that's conflict, diverse, and this is not a knock on her is to be like you know what, let's take a deep breath and we'll, we'll hit that back, and for me it's. That's usually when some of the good stuff happens. Yep, is is when now let's dig in.

Speaker 2: 1:14:42

Okay, like somebody should have explained to nate what was going like instead of him. Now nate goes away with bad feelings. It's like the wrong time to cut it off. And I'm not saying like, oh, it's great, you gotta have conflict. I'm not some barbarian, but I think like, even if you're, sometimes it is, maybe we'll take a little break, we'll come back and we'll discuss why, but it's. But you don't just end it and then put a period on it. It could be a comma in the sentence, but it shouldn't be a period on it. It could be a comma in the sentence, but it shouldn't be a period. When you finally hit pay dirt, when there's actual gold at the end of the vein that you're mining, that's when you have to get to the gold. You don't just say that's it.

Speaker 3: 1:15:18

I'd push back a little on that. Yeah, I'd push back a little. It's not disagreeing as such, but I'd push back a little. It's not disagreeing as such, like whole heart, but I'd push back a little, which is, I think, sometimes as a leader, as a coach, there could be conversations you don't want to get into and, in a way, if you're, if for nate, like specifically here with Nate, what would we be communicating to Nate that would be helpful in this moment? Right, like so, if sure you could give him the truth of Nate.

Speaker 3: 1:16:01

Ain't nobody worried about you taking a girl? That's like. Ain't nobody worried about you taking a girl? Right, like that's just a thing, let it go because it doesn't exist. But what's that actually do for nate and or richmond in this moment? Like they're about to have, they're about to head out to the pitch, like what? What exactly? Like, let's say, we hit like I get what you're saying, that and I'm and I'm with you, sometimes for better, for worse. Also, I think it's interesting that we both are perfectly, uh, comfortable with conflict and have both, uh, married women who have the good sense to say let's take a breath.

Speaker 3: 1:16:45

Probably a good thing so nobody dies um, yeah, but but yeah, I think sometimes it's like you know what? What is, I guess, for me? Sometimes now I'm getting more and more to to what end? On almost everything I do, I could do that, but to what end?

Speaker 2: 1:17:04

but you could put it in nate's, in nate's court. I'm not saying you couldn't take a break and have this conversation. I'm not saying you have to have it when all the tempers are high. You gotta figure it out. But at some point someone could say Nate, sure, I can see that you're frustrated. You didn't get headbutted. Explain why. Well, because you made me feel like I didn't matter and I wasn't worthy of it.

Speaker 2: 1:17:24

Well, keely's attracted to cocky pricks, and you're not a cocky or whatever. You know what I mean. Like you could make it so. Or she's attracted to footballers. You're not a football, you're a football coach. She's not trying ted, she's not trying to beard. Should they be mad too?

Speaker 2: 1:17:36

Like, what I'm saying is like there's lots of ways to articulate it in, in ways that are clarifying and so. But instead, in lieu of that, when you just say, oh, all right, all right, let's go, let's get back to work, now he's got to go stew and bad things happen, even if it's a conversation where you say, okay, roy, I'd like you to talk to nate and get to the bottom of this, because I noticed he wasn't cool with that and you know like, whatever the, the, the tactic is, it should be addressed. It shouldn't just be left wide open because people incels like Nate can draw the wrong conclusions and bad shit happens is all I'm saying. You can take this loss and turn it into a win if you're a good enough leader.

Speaker 2: 1:18:24

One of the things I didn't get to say while we were talking about incels is there's a whole Jordan Peterson thing. They have gurus that are telling them the wrong things, and so that's part of why you know they're not. They're looking for answers and they're getting them in the wrong places. And I promise you, if I put Coach Bishop in a room with 200 incels, maybe he doesn't change 200. But I promise you they're going to think differently when they leave that room. So it's just you know it's again, again, not all of them, whatever, and in this case I just didn't like that. Now Nate is left to his own devices. He was clearly frustrated. You know it's insulting for him. When you have a real fragile ego like that and you're already self-loathing, weird stuff can happen. You just address it, go ahead, boss.

Speaker 4: 1:19:16

Well, I actually agree with almost everything you say, which doesn't happen that much. The only two things that I will needle at is one you said you're not always looking for conflict. You're not a barbarian or something I hate. Framing a conflict or confrontation or even fights like not violent in bad faith, mean dirty fighting, but like having a conversation where voices are raised and tempers are up with somebody that you love and it's safe, totally fine. One of my favorite things I actually like.

Speaker 4: 1:19:52

I feel comfortable in it, I'm fine in it. I don't think it's bad in any way, shape or form. I think if that is not comfortable for you, that shouldn't be the communication style that somebody brings to you, right, but if both be absolutely fucking fine, I could scream at my siblings and we'll, we're fine, we're fine. At the end of it, like it's not a big deal. Um, the only other thing I know that we point to Jordan Peterson or fucking Andrew Tate or whoever else, all these horrible people that are telling people horrible things, and it sucks that they are. But you exist in a world where Andrew Tate is telling you that you should be an asshole, and that's how you get ahead, and that's how you get a woman, and that's how you become successful. And you are not listening to them. So, even though I understand having a certain amount of sympathy for incels who are listening to those people, they are making choices.

Speaker 2: 1:20:42

I'm just saying let's not generalize Great. Yes, I just think, like that whole incel community, I bet bet 30 of them are autistic and they're undiagnosed. Autistic kids like I'm just saying like, look at as a white man who tries to be constantly bettering themselves. Many, many, many, many, many. Almost all of the life moments, the, the milestones I was theoretically promised by the universe, like you know, in growing up, that whatever I got, none of them, none like, none of the things that were like theoretical markers of male patriarchal success I got almost none of. You know, like I just never.

Speaker 2: 1:21:24

Part of it is me choosing not to go that path, but part of it is just like the world changed while those things were still in play. And it's not whatever. Now I can be mad about it. I can say, oh, you know, I was thinking about like the concept of like a promotion where people pop like bottles of wine and like, hey, you got the corner office. Or oh, this guy made partner, things like that. That in our formative years we're like, oh, this is what you're supposed to aspire to and I never did so, I never got them.

Speaker 2: 1:21:53

But I'm like, it's just, I can see how the earth shifts under people and there's, there's, if you're not sure how to handle it, uh, it can. It can be confounding and, and, boss, you're 100 right that, uh, you know some of these people should not be almost. You know it's hard, but when, again, when you're, when you're lonely and you're looking for any answers, there are people who are experts at me, just like we said, rupert knew who to talk to, um, there are people you know. And to create a fisher at richmond, um, there are people who are tailor-made for lonely men who are looking to point the finger at someone and, again, a certain percentage of them are malleable enough to buy into it. So, yes, it's a complicated issue.

Speaker 4: 1:22:43

Before we move on from this and I will make this quick I promise One of the things my boss used to say that I know I've mentioned, so I don't want this to sound bitchy. I mean this in the most pure sense of the way. Why did you tell us that? What is it about your understanding that there are some incels who are struggling with things that you wanted to make sure that we knew? Because I feel like what I've said is I know that they're lonely, I know that it's difficult, I know that there are bad role models, I understand sort of the motivation and the context in which somebody might become an incel, and what I am more judging is, outside of that water that they're swimming in, they are an incel. So it feels like you want to continually remind us. Well, they are an incel. So it feels like you want to continually remind us.

Speaker 2: 1:23:30

Well, that's an incel, is what you're calling them? No, no, no, no.

Speaker 4: 1:23:34

You're saying me no, no, no, no. I'm genuinely wondering why is it that you want to say you have sympathy for their loneliness? What are you trying to convey to me when you say that?

Speaker 2: 1:23:45

No, no, it's not that. It's sympathy for the lonely. I have sympathy for yes, that's already asked and answered the loneliness part of it. I'm saying the way out is I have sympathy for them not knowing the right road and misunderstanding that the earth has shifted under their feet while they weren't paying attention. I've seen evidence of that in my own life. I think it's when, again, there are people that are really good at giving a false, false profits, Like it's like okay, here's the way out, but that's not really the way out, but you've been looking for the way out, so it's natural to go down that road. I just think that that I'm hesitant to generalize, but it doesn't Wait, wait, sorry. What do you mean by that when you say I'm hesitant to generalize, but?

Speaker 4: 1:24:26

but it doesn't wait, wait, sorry. What do you mean by that when you say you you're hesitant to generalize?

Speaker 2: 1:24:31

I don't know enough about the incel term. I don't know if these, if incels, call themselves incels or if that's something we've labeled them like. Once upon a time it was like guys who were on 4chan, you know what I mean. It was like these. Yeah, they were just like these crazies that were outside the whatever, and now it's just grown into this thing. So I don't know enough about it. I don't know enough about it to say, okay, I'm not, I'm not going to label, I don't know. Uh, which ones are sort of reachable, which ones are I don't know. I honestly don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:25:00

I'm just saying, in general, I always feel sympathy for people who, um, uh, are, are confused about the world that they live in and have. Now that we said you've given, you said I have sympathy too. So now it's like how now, where do we go from there? And you're saying, well, you've chosen to listen to assholes. Then you have a problem with that. Yeah, it sucks. I'm just saying I wish we could put Coach Bishop in front of them so they could have a different person to listen to, and that would be a better situation. I just want them to have, I want everyone it's not just them, it's not everyone who's feeling the earth shift under their feet. Look at anyone that is not able to deal with climate change is going through the same thing where they go. There's mosquitoes in LA, okay wait, I'm sorry.

Speaker 4: 1:25:51

I need to cut you off because I feel like you're re-explaining something that I understand and moving farther away from the question that I asked, which was why do you have a problem with the generalization? What is it about the generalization that you think is a bad thing? Because what I considered was we're talking about a group of people, whether they self-identify or they have the same traits as people, who are incels, and you say I don't want to generalize. What is the bad part of generalizing? What do you think that I am saying about them when I label a group of people who identify as incels as incels?

Speaker 2: 1:26:26

I'm actually not. I'm not reacting to you labeling them. I'm saying in general Okay, do I know enough about the spectrum of the incel community to say all incels are X? No, I don't. I don't think you do. I don't think any of us do. I don't think enough. I don't think probably enough has been done to understand that.

Speaker 4: 1:26:44

This is the disconnect between what I am saying and what you are saying, Because what you are saying is I don't know enough about incels to say X, Y or Z about them. What I am saying is, if a person is a self-identified incel and they say I deserve a woman because of X, Y and Z, what I am saying about them is not they are bad people or they deserve to be punished, or I never want to speak with them or they're irredeemable. I'm not saying any of that. I am saying what you told me was you can't get a woman because you're not a Chad or whatever else. And I am saying well, the reality of the situation, the reality of his situation, is he needs to update, he needs to change, he needs to adapt in order to change this incel thing. If he wants a woman, what he has to do is become the person that a woman wants. To date. I am not making any sort of characteristic judgment or character judgment. I'm not saying good, bad, anything else.

Speaker 2: 1:27:45

I am am saying but you're also focusing on women, which I don't think is necessary. My understanding of it is not just limited to women, it's sort of a worldview well, so this is generally not having the position in life not having. So you're focusing on one part of it and I'm saying I just don't know enough to say to paint everybody with the same brush and I, but I mean I'm always hesitant to do, I'm always hesitant to do that.

Speaker 3: 1:28:06

I'm always hesitant to do that. I mean it stands for involuntary celibate right. So I mean in a way, yes, I hear what you're saying, that there may be a broader, that there are broader issues to be brought into it.

Speaker 4: 1:28:17

We just called.

Speaker 2: 1:28:18

Nate an incel.

Speaker 4: 1:28:19

We said he had incel vibes. And he does Right and he does but.

Speaker 3: 1:28:23

But I'm saying he kind of does have some of that going on. I mean, he even said I'm very picky, so are women Right? So he, he, he, he ain't been turning them back Like ever since his dad sent old girl away in high school, you know, yeah, so, but, but, but I think I don't know if it's a colloquialism to say I'm not saying like I didn't know.

Speaker 2: 1:28:49

I'm finding out right now that there are people who are self-affirming card-carrying incels, who I know that there's. I guessed that that was it. But I'm saying I think we're using it to paint the larger picture of dissatisfied men, of any you know sort of race. I'm saying in general, I'm I, I I don't know enough to paint everybody with the same brush.

Speaker 4: 1:29:17

Okay, it's a, it's a really basic, no, but what I'm saying is that I'm not trying to paint anybody with a brush. What I'm saying is that so what you said said earlier about Republicans is that you were like, well, there are good Republicans and then there's Marjorie Taylor Greene and what I'm saying is but what I'm saying is I don't think every Republican is as bad as Marjorie Taylor Greene. I'm saying every Republican is a Republican because they are a Republican. Like there's no generalization for me when I say that I am not drawing a conclusion outside of the fact that you usually vote for the Republican candidate. I am not talking about your beliefs or who you are as a person, or your morals. I am saying that this is a thing that I know about you you are a Republican, that's it.

Speaker 2: 1:30:00

Right, and that's a party that people register and vote for and they choose it. And I was saying the way we were talking about in cells was colloquially as like a segment of the popular. I wasn't saying only the people who self identify or make a declarative statement that they're. It's not like registering for a political party. I'm just saying I don't even know what we're talking about because I can't track it.

Speaker 3: 1:30:22

I think I do, but like cause? It's not about.

Speaker 2: 1:30:25

Actually, I think you're reacting to me saying that you're saying something wrong, and I'm not. I'm just saying in general, for me, I try to always look for the humanity in people and I always think like I try to allow people to be redeemable in my mind until they aren't, and so that's it. I don't think you disagree with me about that. You're nodding and so I'm saying that's kind of how I'm approaching this. Uh, you know, in a broad fashion.

Speaker 3: 1:30:50

I and and I actually I was really curious. Uh, as you both know, for me it's always the the best questions that make me go, and so that was my reaction when boss said, why did what made you need to communicate to me, right? And I was like, oh, that's interesting, because then that becomes about what you felt wasn't being served. It sounds like in part, you thought people who don't deserve whatever this analysis is or whatever might be negative about what we're saying, could be sort of herded into being described in a given way. But I also wonder if our desire to be understanding and maybe Ted does some of this too, actually, now that I say it or think it, our desire to be understanding leads us to accept the unacceptable, right.

Speaker 3: 1:31:49

So Nate's out of hand. Like, nate is out of motherfucking hand. Like, even if it wasn't, even if it was just word, is that Richmond considered parking the bus, but then the head coach decided to be aggressive, like none of that should be in the fucking paper. Like he's out of line, right. And so sometimes and I'm not saying this specifically, what you're doing, but what the question like started to pick at, for me is okay. So let's say, nate does feel a way, and that's why he told the newspaper how we decided on our strategy. That doesn't make going to the paper about it okay or acceptable or any of those things.

Speaker 3: 1:32:35

And I think sometimes and I think this plays into the curious, not judgmental conversation, I think where there's sort of this blur to this blur and and and uh in a place a version of it I think speaks to the same thing, you'll tell me is when people talk about being um tolerant, and then there's this attempt to flip it around and make it then that somehow I should be tolerant of misogyny or tolerant of white uh supremacy, and I'm like, absolutely the fuck not Like I'm not, this isn't like like we're not, this is a theoretical game here Like I'm trying to create justice in the world and this ain't it.

Speaker 1: 1:33:16

So I think sometimes in our attempts to be quote understanding the behavior.

Speaker 3: 1:33:23

Because the behavior cannot be redeemed, the person can be redeemed. Because the behavior cannot be redeemed, the person can be redeemed, and I think that gets you know it gets very gray sometimes as to which one we're actually speaking to.

Speaker 2: 1:33:40

I think that's incredibly well said, coach. Yeah, no, I think you make a great point. The behavior itself is something that's tough. That can be tough, and I listen. Maybe I just means I need to go read up a little bit more on what defines an incel. Seriously, I've never it's I have so much on my plate. I get that the last thing I want to do is learn more about incels.

Speaker 3: 1:34:03

I'm like, oh no no, I, I certainly don't think you need to do that. I think they're where they are. But the other piece that did jump out here and I didn't want to lose it was the piece about Nate not being considered a big dog and sort of the fallout from that and how much of that that Ted owns, needs to manage, needs to deal with. And we're definitely going to get to that and I think there's I think there's a lot to get into there and I do think there's some ways in which Ted could have handled Nate more effectively. But I will throw in that at a certain point in our life we have to start getting real about who we are and who we are not. And it's an ongoing, it's a lifelong process, it's all sorts of things. But I don't see how I'm ever going to be a pacifist. This is not who the fuck I am. This is not Like. Maybe one day I will be, maybe I'll change, but as of this moment in my life I just don't see. And so to sort of say to people well, I'm a pacifist, you know? They're like are you sure? Because last we heard, you busted out somebody's fucking window for bothering your wife. So you busted out somebody's fucking window for bothering your wife, so you would amend that statement. You know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 1:35:31

So I think sometimes I think part of this is also Nate does not know who the fuck Nate is, so he wants to try. He's kind of behaving like somebody in high school or even college who's like oh yeah, where I came from. I was Jimmy, but now call me James, and I used to be a nerd, but now I wear a leather jacket, so I'm a cool kid. He's trying on oh, I'll be a big dog. It's like actually no, you won't. You'll never be that dude. That's not who you are In some ways, ted's not that dude.

Speaker 3: 1:36:04

And Ted, don't pretend to be that dude. Ted comes into the locker room for the first time. That is not how I would have introduced myself to a team. We talked about it at the time. I would have come in. I've been like all right, you know eyes on me, you know it was been respectful. It wouldn't have been a Bobby Knight speech, but certainly wouldn't have been keep doing whatever the fuck you're doing while I'm talking. Like that's a habit we need to break now. Like don't don't be doing what the fuck you're doing. I'm talking. That's a habit we need to break now. Don't be doing what the fuck you're doing. I'm talking is more what we meant to say, but that's not Ted, you know what I mean. So I think part of Nate's work is finding out who the fuck Nate is, so that he doesn't say shit like I'm the big dog who should go talk to Roy about something when that's.

Speaker 2: 1:36:43

What In what universe bro In? What in what universe bro in? In the strategic universe he is the brains of the operation.

Speaker 3: 1:36:53

But but then he that translates but if he should but he should get that then right, like in a funny way, roy over emphasizes I have this box within I and within I exist, which is why, like even saying he has a feeling in this scene is like you know him trying it and like this to take it a little toe outside that box. And meanwhile Nate is like oh, I am all things in the universe and it's like but you're really not though. Not though, and you have to. It's. It's imperative if you're going to be an effective coach, to know yourself and keep knowing yourself better, because when whoever you're coaching senses that you're full of shit, it's game over. And so if nate goes out there and pretends to, be boss is nodding, boss is nodding is they're gonna.

Speaker 3: 1:37:44

Roy is actually a going to. Roy is actually a big dog. Jamie is actually a big dog. If you go play big dog in front of them, they're going to be like what the fuck is this?

Speaker 4: 1:37:55

Yeah, you know what? It's actually very similar to season one, the last episode when Ted comes in after their loss. He doesn't come in and say, oh, we're going to get him next. He's like, oh, this is fucking sad, this is really fucking sad, like this is really hard. That's right, it's good that we're all together in it, but he was honest about what was happening and that level of authenticity not just honesty- authenticity is what is needed.

Speaker 2: 1:38:23

Yes, absolutely, we're going to leave it there today. Um, lots of things to think about. Uh, coach, where do people find you if they want to find you?

Speaker 3: 1:38:31

I'm going to shout out uh, unstuck as fuck the stage show. Key west. Um, you can stream that. Um, I will make sure. Oh, the link is actually in the show notes. Um, so encourage you to uh check it out. I actually found myself revisiting for some stuff I had to work on. I was like you know what More people should see this? I think this could help some people, so I'm going to promote it right now.

Speaker 2: 1:38:55

I agree. I think everyone who listens to this should definitely watch that Boss. What about you?

Speaker 4: 1:39:01

You can find me at Blue Sky. It's Emily Chambers, also on threads at emilychambers.31. And hopefully sometime God help me writing at the Antagonist, which is antagonistblogcom.

Speaker 2: 1:39:16

Thank you boss. Okay, this has been part four of our discussion about inverting the pyramids of success, the pyramid singular. I put an S on there for some reason. Inverting the pyramid of success. Thank you for joining us. This has been a real doozy conversation. I'm going to go splash some cold water on my face and do some real hard thinking about why I partnered with these two. Why I partnered with these two. Please support your local libraries and the written word, and until next time we are.

Speaker 3: 1:39:56

Richmond Till we Headbutt Neat.

Speaker 2: 1:40:01

Bingo. We'll see if that happens next time. Thanks everybody, We'll see you.