Inverting the Pyramid of Success (S2:Ep12:Part5)

The Tedcast is a deep dive podcast exploring the masterpiece that is Ted Lasso on Apple TV+.

Sponsored by Pajiba and The Antagonist, join Boss Emily Chambers and Coaches Bishop and Castleton as they ruminate on all things AFC Richmond.

Boss Emily Chambers
Coach Bishop
Coach Castleton

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:22

Welcome to our Ted Lasso talk, the Tedcast. Welcome all Greyhound fans, welcome all you sinners from the dog track and all the AFC Richmond fans around the world. It's the Lasso way around these parts with Coach, coach and Boss, without further ado, coach Castleton.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Right. So, Coach, you think that Nate has the opposite understanding of how power actually works?

Speaker 3: 0:50

Yeah. So I think we're thinking about the inverting in terms of the coaching and on the field slash locker room dynamic, but I think Nate is actually inverting how power works like how it actually works. Power works like how it actually works, and so Nate wants to be declared a big man by the world and then he'll be on top and then he can say things and people will do what he said. All these things and I think or at least in the model that we see being executed generally Executed generally very successfully by Ted is you, do you actually lead? And that's how you come to power and have that weight in people's lives. So I think that is critical to our understanding of all of this is like the need to be. Somebody needs to talk about leading versus managing. Actually, seth Godin right, who I've talked about before, and managers make sure that things are done correctly and the speed they're supposed to and the processes work and all that.

Speaker 3: 2:00

A leader says we're going this way, follow me. And I think that Nate wants everybody to say, hey, you're a leading type, tell us to follow you, or just right, or we follow you. You're so awesome, nate. And not recognizing that really what he should be doing. Rather than like ripping you know, ripping Colin or whatever it is what he should be doing is spending time after practice with Colin working on penalty kicks. On penalty kicks yeah, what he should be doing. Right, that's how, as a coach, you become right. Like they experience you and they're like oh, I want to be around coach more, I hang out around coaching and I'm gonna be, and then I get better. Yeah, uh, he's seeing. He's seeing it as very like he.

Speaker 2: 2:58

he wants to be an authority, not a leader yeah, so, um, it reminded me the way that he wants power, reminded me a little bit. Uh, the movie, uh, madam webb, I also I have heard people pronounce it madam webb. I'm not gonna do that. I don't know if that's right. Madam webb is what I'm gonna say. I don't think it did too well in the box office and I don't want to like listen. I haven't seen it. This is a case where I am being curious and not judgmental until I actually watch the film before forming any opinions. But I heard on two different podcasts that I listened to a specific shout out of the line uh, when you accept great responsibility, you will achieve great power, which is supposed to be an inversion of Uncle Ben's line from Spider-Man about with great power comes great responsibility and the Madam Web one does not hit right. That is not what it is. It's not like once you take on all of the responsibility, then all of a sudden people respect no.

Speaker 2: 4:06

It's not quite that. It's not that you're going to get spidey senses because you really want to fight crime, like that's. If there there is this inversion of uh, you need to actually do the leadership things and then people will recognize you as a leader. It's, I feel, really terrible. There's a woman I knew years ago who really loved the Twilight books and was waiting for a man to see all of the wonderfulness inside of her that she knew was there. And I was like are you on dating apps? Are you going out to places? Are you going to singles events? Are you talking to people? What are you doing? She was like well, you know, like sometimes I'll go to parties and just wait for men to talk to me. And I'm like well, I'm gonna level with you I don't know if that is gonna work.

Speaker 2: 4:51

I don't think it's worked in the past, I think.

Speaker 3: 4:53

I think maybe we need to up your game a little bit, because well, I can say for sure there's been a shitty sales strategy from our company oh, like it just you're 100 right I did I?

Speaker 2: 5:09

just I feel like you do the work and then you are recognized.

Speaker 3: 5:12

You can't expect people to know what you are before you've done the work well, for other, for other reasons, we can and and swing this into the show. Ted Lasso, I believe that's this podcast. At any rate, at some point, at some point, coach Cassidy will introduce us, but quickly I'll say that it's that's really. I love the way you said that about the responsibility piece. Responsibility piece um, because we have certain ideas of what leadership is. I would actually say in some cases, whatever you do, don't become that person, because people love to give that person just a ton of shit to do, whereas I think leadership is a little different than that. So sometimes I do think people think, if I'm the best worker, bee people will recognize me as a leader.

Speaker 3: 6:10

And. I'm like. I get why, I get the value of it. I just don't think it's the same thing as leadership. But anyway, hey coach, how's it going?

Speaker 4: 6:20

Boss said press record, I was busy he was looking down at the man and the boss said, look, we got to catch this.

Speaker 2: 6:32

Yeah, coach was cooking and we needed to hear it.

Speaker 4: 6:35

When coach cooks. We got to record. I am your host, coach Castleton With me. You heard Coach Bishop and our boss, emily Chambers. We are diving right in. This is Season 2, episode 12 of Ted Lasso Inverting the Pyramid of Success. Part 5 is where we are today. We are going to dive right into the beginning of the 83rd clash between these teams, these two teams. There's never more at stake. This is Brentford and Richmond, richmond's in their false nine formation and of course, arlo says that. Chris says I don't like it, arlo. Last match of the season for promotion. It's funny time to be pulling out a whole new strategy. He's not wrong. He's not wrong. Coach wouldn't do it.

Speaker 3: 7:29

It's yeah, it's a lot Like it works for the story. But I was kind of like I was kind of with Roy when he was like that's mental. But, I get it.

Speaker 4: 7:41

Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot and it seems like an overcorrection. We get a lot of gameplay, Richmond trying to even it up at the half, but they give away possession and Brentford have numbers and we get a shot of Brentford playing coming up. They cross right in front of our boy Zorro and, lo and behold, Brentford scores. So it's 2-0 to Brentford. You try to attack this late, with the match at the stake and everyone loses their heads. Now we get you know this is, listen, 2-0 before half is a disaster. It's a disaster. It means the other team can sit back and bunker and make you fight for, like, on the off chance, you'll get one. It's too hard to score in this level, At this level of play, it is too difficult to score. 2-0 is destruction, it's clobbering. So these guys are obviously displeased and boss. What does Nate? Yeah, we get a shot of the coaches on the sidelines. They all react. Beard's got his hands on his head like oh, god damn it. And what does Nate say here?

Speaker 2: 8:57

Stay back. How many times do I have to fucking tell you Stay back, which is obviously the lasso way, yeah?

Speaker 4: 9:06

Yeah, yeah, I mean that's. It's so uh egregious. Anyone who comes to this show and knows what the show is all about. That that's not how we talked. That's not how we do it also.

Speaker 3: 9:24

I don't think it's just. It's not just just like oh, you know it's harsh, you know like who's fucking harsher than Roy? Part of the problem here is he's unable. He's unable to do the coaching part. He's a strategist. One day he may become a coach. He is not a coach Because guess what, If I know something and I can't get my players to understand it, I fucked up the coaching part. That's the coaching part. It's not a lecture series before the game where I show off how smart I am about this sport and then the best of luck to you. I have to figure out how to communicate that and to me. That's where Nate's reaction is. I thought it up, I drew it up. I know it should work theoretically. If it's not working, that's because the players have failed.

Speaker 4: 10:23

Yeah, no, no, it's an outstanding point, coach. That's why, when Roy is brutal with people, you never for one second doubt his sincerity. No, keep your head down.

Speaker 3: 10:36

I mean I don't know how to do it, but I remember when he said, like, keep your head down, da-da-da and drive right through it. I mean like he's telling you what to do, like he's fixing it, Like he may be fixing it harshly, but he is fixing it. He's not just like you're a fucking idiot. And even though Nate is technically saying what to do, stay back in context. Not really In context, he's just saying stop fucking up my strategy.

Speaker 2: 11:00

Yeah, because when you say, put your head down and drive through it, those are physical, this is what you do, this and then you do this. What he is saying is you need to avoid it. You need to change all of your instincts and not go to the ball, stay back Like you need to actually say something more than just don't do the thing you've been trained to do your whole life. Well, how many times?

Speaker 3: 11:19

do I need to tell you? That's right. How many times do I need to tell you Again? That's evidence of bad coaching. If I say it one way and you don't get it, I got to find another fucking way to say it. That is the work. That is the job. And you could tell one player that and they're great. And the other one's looking at you like what the fuck are you talking about? I mean, I've had a whole conversation with a little kid on a field where I'm like you see that end zone over there, that's where your mom is. Are you going to let these guys get to your mom? No, okay, that's what we're doing. We're keeping these kids away. What am I talking about? Cover one, cover three with some fucking seven-year-old Like what are you stupid? Like these kids don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Right, right. And so to me, that's you know right now, nate, you know, because it's about it being Nate's false nine. It's not about it being Richmond succeeding, it's about showing off my brilliance. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 12:17

So, ted, where you're at, hey, it's all right, it's all right, come on now. You know he gives me to look like, damn, what is wrong? Um, and then it's halftime. What has been a pulsating west london derby? I never, I'll never, use the derby for derby, um, and here we are. We're at halftime. Right away, bam uh, felt like we? Uh first half I barely knew you it just we don't we. All we get. All we get is is is the coup de gras of the second goal. That's basically it. Um, now we get we cut to the bar crown and anchor. Everyone at pb and j? Um are looking miserable, everyone is. You know what it feels like when you're in a cheering section where, yeah, hope is all but lost.

Speaker 4: 13:06

Yeah, it feels terrible, especially on a big stage like this. Richard Letty and Golden Opportunity slipped through their fingers. Arlo says Now we cut to the coach's room.

Speaker 3: 13:16

One thing before you jump out of there. I just want to say for the directors and the camera people they shot the shit out of crown and anchor. If, yeah, there's a, there's not a fucking angle or distance or lens they haven't used. I was just like looking at that shot sort of kind of across them. I don't think we've ever seen that shot before. No, they shot the shit out of that place. Man, yeah, like it's really impressive, like just from a practical. Yeah, like it's really impressive, like just from a practical we got to get this done kind of place, like they just nail it.

Speaker 4: 13:49

Yeah, it's a beautiful shot, baz in front in focus. You got Mae past him, past his right shoulder, head on her hands on the bar.

Speaker 4: 13:59

Paul and Jeremy both like kind of hand on chin totally out of focus, but you can see the depth and, yeah, no, it's a beautiful shot. They're not happy. This is not a good place to be. It feels terrible. The thing is, when a team is down 2-0 at halftime, one of the great joys of football or soccer, depending on where you're from is, um teams come back. You don't. You don't think they can come back. It feels like you know, I was watching a hockey game the other day that was like I think, three nil at halftime.

Speaker 4: 14:37

Three, nothing at. Uh, there's no halftime in hockey. Um three nil after the first period. And you're like, oh god, like there's no halftime in hockey. 3-0 after the first period. And you're like, oh God, jesus Christ. And then the team that was losing came back and won 7-6 in overtime. And you're like, oh, my God, when you get 13 goals in a hockey game, it's like you powder yourself Like in 18th century. It's like, oh dear God, you need to spritz yourself. It almost doesn't matter who scores, you want your team to win, but the goals are so fast and unbelievable.

Speaker 4: 15:11

And in this particular game they were, like you know, back and forth kind of thing. Like you know, that's so beautiful. Anyway, we cut to the coaches I'm going to toss this in.

Speaker 3: 15:23

It's not where this coach's meeting goes. Uh, as we saw, do it quickly, but again, in terms of the coaching and nate being so, I'd say ugly. In terms of if we win, then we won, but then if we lose, then you lost, right. Like I hate when kate I I hate when fans do that never mind players and coaches, it just drives me crazy, but these situations sometimes can be great for coaching because you can spin a tail.

Speaker 3: 15:53

You'd be like, all right, well, that was shit. And now they think they are that much better than you. So here's what we're going to do we're going to go out in the second half and we're going to do what we do, and we can score three to those two because they're going to do. We're going to go out in the second half and we do what we do and we can score three to those two because they're going to come out comfortable. Now they think you know what.

Speaker 3: 16:11

I mean so also part of what Nate's missing by not coaching in my way of talking about coaching is it is halftime. If they can score two goals and a half, then we can score two holes and a half. We all on the same motherfucker field, so it's also hopeless, Like it's a hopeless way of coaching. There's no reason for a player to hear him yell that and think, all right, yeah, we got this shit.

Speaker 2: 16:40

Yes, the importance of momentum both that you guys have talked about and that I've heard other places is especially key, like, yes, the the other team can hunker down, but if they aren't fighting, are they going to do as well, and that's what you need to tap into. And that is exactly what made is missing yeah, there's.

Speaker 4: 16:58

you got to be able to inspire your players to to make a change or to come at it differently or to. You know there has to be a way to come back. There are certain teams where they can go in at halftime, but you have such respect for the coach that you know he's going to say he or she is going to say exactly what needs to be said to get the best. You're going to see a change coming out of halftime. Sometimes in football or soccer, you'll come and you'll see some substitutes. It's not like they tip the coach's hand, but you're like, all of a sudden, oh, this defensive midfielder gets swapped out for an attacker and you're like, oh, you just get excited just by that. But it requires strategy and the ability to convey that to the players, as Coach rightly points out. Boss, walk us through the rest of this. Yeah, go ahead, coach. Yeah, sorry.

Speaker 3: 18:02

Jose Mourinho, right? Am I saying that correctly, coach? Yeah, sorry, jose Mourinho, right? Am I saying that correctly, coach? Yeah, yeah, saying about the substitutions or whatever he talked about, um, he was in a game situation where they needed to score and he had to decide when do we get aggressive? And he explained, and I was like it's pretty rare that someone says something strategy wise that I go, I have never thought of that that way ever in my life, wow.

Speaker 3: 18:43

And and he said something I was like I thought it was fascinating. He said that he wanted to wait because when they were away, when a team needs to score, the crowd goes nuts because they want them to score. They're like trying to urge them on, but when the team is hoping not to be scored upon, the crowd gets tense and quiet. And he didn't want them urged on and he didn't want them excited, so he held and he held and he held, so that by the time they were aggressive, it was like too late for all that other stuff to take hold. And I was like God, like I said stuff to take hold. And I was like God, like, like I said, it's pretty rare that I'm like. I never even like have thought that before and I thought that was like an amazing insight. So anyway, like a slow clap kind of moment, yeah. Like wow, Damn.

Speaker 3: 19:40

You do a psychology on the whole damn stadium Like Damn. You're doing psychology on the whole damn stadium Like okay, okay, so anyway there you go.

Speaker 4: 19:47

It's very true, Very true. Boss, walk us through the rest of this please.

Speaker 2: 19:51

Yeah, I definitely love that. So Ted comes in he says I'm going to shoot you all straight. This is bleak, yeah, I mean, look at it out. There Looks like a Renaissance painting portraying masculine melancholy and then shot out the window where they are in fact all sitting around Isaac, front and center, fist on chin, hand on thigh, just sitting and thinking.

Speaker 3: 20:19

That really made me laugh.

Speaker 4: 20:20

You know it is unique and hysterical. I mean, like it's such a random, the intelligence required to like yes, make this a Renaissance painting. Like you just go like Bravo, I wouldn't have thought of it, I think it's just like. Again, it's the type of thing where you're like where the fuck did that come from? And like then they pull it off and and you and you look at it as a viewer and you go yep, like right, right away, like oh yeah, no.

Speaker 3: 20:52

As soon as the cut happened I was like oh my god, nicely done, y'all does yeah that's exactly right, which means that isaac has now been a rodin sculpture and a Renaissance painting.

Speaker 2: 21:04

So yes. And I was going to.

Speaker 3: 21:08

I was going to highlight, there may be a, an art history major, with some decision-making power, and all this because I I don't want to time travel, but art and sort of like famous, sort of I don't mean classical era, but sort of like classic names in art history come up throughout the series. So that's all I think about. It's true, but he is a Rodin sculptor in cleats, you're right yeah, even more so now that he is the captain somehow.

Speaker 2: 21:39

I don't know how it's even more like a bigger, more imposing force the sculpture, but anyway says okay, so what now? What are we going to do? We should abandon the false nine. It did work if we had the players who knew what they were fucking doing is what Nate said. And then there's some glances around the room about how no, that's not, that's not actually how you coach. And Ted says yeah, I don't agree it.

Speaker 4: 22:05

It is, though, you do blame the players.

Speaker 2: 22:06

Obviously yeah, it's good coaching. Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4: 22:09

A good carpenter blames his tools, I think that's the saying.

Speaker 3: 22:13

Every bad set I ever had was because of a sucky audience. Just in case anybody's ever wondering.

Speaker 2: 22:18

Yeah, I mean well listen, if you had been smarter. I mean well listen, if you had been smarter, you would have understood what my movie meant.

Speaker 3: 22:25

That's right, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 2: 22:30

Jesus Christ, when people do that shit. Yeah, I don't agree, nate. You know I think we got to stick with it. Man, you know, they just had 45 minutes to figure out what not to do. What do you think, roy? And Roy says you should ask them. They're the ones out there that are actually doing this shit and everybody takes them for beat. But they're like all right, yeah, let's go fucking ask them.

Speaker 3: 22:53

So I got very excited. At this point, you all might be gathering that the coaching elements of this particular episode really jumped out at me, but I think it's so important.

Speaker 3: 23:06

I have a whole system around this actually, no joke. Uh, line athletics, check it out. No, but really a whole thing. But I'm all about, you gotta get the players to buy into what the fuck you're doing. At some point now that happens different ways, like when I'm working with little kids. They just trust me, right. They're like coach orlando's coached for a long time and he knows what he's talking about, and the other players who play for him seem to do well, so fuck it. If he tells me to run over here, I will, but different times it happens different ways.

Speaker 3: 23:38

But you, I had a girls basketball team. They actually countersigned each other's contracts with their commitments to the team. So, okay, you play shitty defense. I'm like, don't look at me. My understanding was we agreed that we are tough. Did we agree that? Yes, was that tough defense? No, okay, so is that on me or is that on you? I think there's a power you hand over to the players that makes it even more potent, and we're going to see it in a moment. But I think there's really. I think, god, like they would not have come up with that without Roy there. And how in line? I didn't mean to bring it up in such close proximity, but how in line is that with? I'm not in the locker room.

Speaker 3: 24:20

I can't look in their eyes Like he gets it, like it's. It's what's going on in these guys that's going to make it go, so anyway. I would say last rant, but we all know that's a fucking lie.

Speaker 2: 24:30

Oh, that's absolutely not going to be true. No, I really like what you said, especially about the buy-in happening in different ways. I think you have maybe mentioned Coach Cower Is that his name? He's the one that said sometimes you yell at the kid and sometimes you have to encourage him, right? Am I thinking of the right one, coach? Who was that? Was that?

Speaker 3: 24:49

Bill Cowher. No, no, it wasn't Cowher.

Speaker 2: 24:52

Oh damn it All right, I'm only saying that because it wasn't.

Speaker 3: 24:54

Cowher, but you're in the right ballpark. Sorry, sorry, sorry, I mean I.

Speaker 2: 24:59

It's like when I heard him on NPR's Wait, wait, don't Tell Me which is where I am most exposed to athletes.

Speaker 3: 25:08

I think that's what he said, Then maybe also Anyway no, the buy-in piece is big.

Speaker 2: 25:14

I think I like so much that a lot of businesses and organizations anything that is mission-driven understands that you have to have buy-in from the participants. I am hoping that very soon in the future we understand that buy-in comes in different forms. I think I've mentioned before, but the organization I work for has been encouraging us. They want us to buy in by having us work with our teammates, our coworkers, more, come into the office physically, see people and they're like then you will care more about your coworkers and more about the job and more about the mission. And I'm like you don't you have not met me, apparently, because this is not no like the fact that you thought I would do my job better because I like my coworkers more is offensive. I don't. I don't like that whatsoever.

Speaker 2: 25:58

So I think the next step is like oh, I don't like it at all, I'm gonna do my job.

Speaker 3: 26:04

This is really interesting to me.

Speaker 2: 26:05

I'm like not kidding, I I swear to god I've mentioned this before. No, like I'm gonna she definitely has, but like yeah yeah I'm gonna kick my job's ass, because I kick ass at my job, that's what I'm gonna do. I show up and I do that shit and I like my co-workers just fine, but how much I like them is not going to make me do accounting better I'm gonna account, I'm gonna do my fucking job.

Speaker 2: 26:27

That's what I yeah so I feel like we need to figure out the ways of getting all of the people to buy in with that shit and not just say like, oh, you respond to money, so we're gonna give you. Well, like, yeah, okay, but what else will I respond to? How do we do this? Anyway? That's there's my rant, and definitely not the last one. Um, so, right after that, after roy says you should ask them they're the ones out there doing this shit they said yeah, all right, all right. Fellas coach and I are having a little debate and want to get y'all's take on it. Should we stick with the false nine or switch it up? And I look around and finally, they are shocked though.

Speaker 3: 27:08

They don't just look around they're like what is happening in this room right now. So yeah, is what to highlight.

Speaker 2: 27:14

Yeah, a little bit of like, is this happening? Yeah, are we doing the like. Are they really asking us Really? Alright, I mean, I don't think that it should be shocking to them at this point, but yeah, but depending on the coach by kartrick that's true.

Speaker 4: 27:30

Yeah, depending on the type of player, it could subvert um confidence in the coaching staff. If it's done, if it's mishandled. You know like it's one thing to get buy-in and it's another thing to like seem like you're rudderless like we don't know but you guys know, I don't know, like it's up, you know.

Speaker 4: 27:47

But I do like the way that it's like, okay, like you're rudderless, like we don't know, you guys know, I don't know, like it's up, you know, but I do like the way that it's like okay, well, we're having a disagreement yeah, we want to get you to. You know, we want to get your take I'm not necessarily going to be the way we go, but I.

Speaker 2: 27:57

I feel like if, if my boss came to me and said we have an account that we need to set up, do you want to do it this way or this way, then he would be asking for my expertise on that. If he came to me one day and he was like so what do you think we should do with all of this? So how do you think we should run this place? Vaguely, gestures.

Speaker 2: 28:18

So what's up with this? The first one is like yes, I believe that you want my input. The second one is oh, who the fuck is steering this place? Who's in charge? So I do understand what you mean.

Speaker 3: 28:28

Yeah, people want to know they're in good hands. Yeah, also, I think input to ask what you think is not to say we're going to do whatever comes out of your mouth next Yep, and I think that's different than like you're saying, going like so accounts.

Speaker 4: 28:43

What's up?

Speaker 2: 28:45

Yeah, Well, this is also you is also the trick that you have with all little kids, where you don't say what do you?

Speaker 3: 28:50

want to eat.

Speaker 2: 28:51

Do you want Cheerios or pancakes? What do you?

Speaker 3: 28:56

want. That saved my ass as a parent. I didn't know that right out of the gate, I'm not kidding. When I learned it it was like no magic trick I had ever seen. I felt like David Blaine of parenting. It was amazing what the fuck? Because I would say something crazy like you guys want something to drink, and somehow, with two kids, I'd have five drink orders and I'd be like what the fuck is happening. And suddenly it was do you want? Yes, right, whatever water or milk. And it was yeah, anyway aside yeah, no, it's, it's the best um, we get a series of reaction shots, and then what happens?

Speaker 2: 29:40

uh. And then yan mas stands up and says the tactic is sound and we're perfectly capable of executing it. It will work. And they all kind of agree, yeah. And then, uh, they say hey, if yan ma says it, you know it's the truth, right, ted? Uh, very, very casually side-eyeing his dutchness. Um, he says I wouldn't lie to you, because of course he wouldn't. For instance, zorro, you should have saved that first goal. He says bro.

Speaker 3: 30:14

That was funny.

Speaker 3: 30:16

I'm glad they laughed in the room. It was super, jan Maas, but I think there's something to be taken from it too. And it's Coach, when he talked about the Diamond Dogs session and letting that Ted kind of like cutting that off before Beard headbutts Nate or whatever. Yeah, this is a perfect example of Yanma said two things Equally, transparently honest. One was necessary, one was totally fucking unnecessary, one was helpful. One was totally fucking unnecessary. One was helpful, one was totally not helpful.

Speaker 3: 30:50

And I think where we are able to recognize what moves us all forward and what really doesn't is just some shit that was in my head that I now want to put outside of my head. I think can make a big difference in how all this kind of communication goes down. I think they have been valued. Like if I, if I were just a random Jan Maas advisor somehow, if I could just be sitting on their shoulder, I'd be like stop right there, just stop. I wouldn't lie to you. Boom, we're done here, Let them go. You don't have to say this to Zerro, it's not going to be helpful, don't worry about it.

Speaker 4: 31:20

Coach, one of the big errors of your life, your life oh this will be good, oh god is that you fell in love with sports that don't have goalies. And because I'll tell you that, because you're a defense, you're a defensive coach by heart, but you have to, you have to take listen, because nothing changes. Nothing changes a game like a goalie, a hockey goalie, who's a wall?

Speaker 3: 31:44

I've heard that. I've heard that a hockey goalie solves everything, everything.

Speaker 4: 31:48

If you cannot score, even when you should score. You'll see these things in hockey where it's like 2-1-0. That's a guaranteed goalie. Two guys coming down, no defender and the goalie somehow sucks In soccer. I watched the other day a women's championship and it was Chelsea versus United, manchester United and Mary Earps, who's the England team national goalie we call her Merps for people who love her. She's just incredible. She's the United goalie and Chelsea had like 40 shots and they lost. Chelsea was way favored to blow, blow you night. I don't think they actually. I think everyone lost their shit because they hadn't ever beaten or something. It was some crazy thing. It was like in you know 15 years, something crazy. Like like you know, you know the, the rich richmond uh beating, um, who was it? Uh, we haven't done it in 60 years.

Speaker 2: 32:50

Who plays in Liverpool?

Speaker 3: 32:52

Oh right, I'll look it up. It's the episode we were just talking about. You got it. You got it, go ahead, coach.

Speaker 4: 33:05

When you have a goalie, take over a game, it changes, it changes everything. It really and you and you coach have fallen in love with sports where you have to take that and trade it, you know, make it happy it's sort of sort of distributed among a number of players. A great defensive play, comparable to goalie in baseball, is like a pitcher you can't hit If you cannot hit a pitcher you can't not.

Speaker 3: 33:36

Momentum is the next day starting pitcher. Yeah, I got it. You know what I mean.

Speaker 4: 33:39

I get that Right and somehow you've coached basketball, you've coached football, you've coached these sports where you have to sort of. You don't get the luxury of a wall of just one person who is out of their fucking mind and just keeps everything out of the cage or the net. Um, and so it's really interesting. Um, and I bring that up because yeah, that's a good, that's okay yeah, I get that.

Speaker 3: 34:02

There's a cultural I mean cultural in terms of the sport culture, the culture of a game that call out would be a little different than, let's say, on an American football team if he had turned to a cornerback and been like, oh you shouldn't have let that wide receiver beat you. It's a different dynamic.

Speaker 4: 34:21

Yeah, because, god forbid, when you want the goalie to step up, and they do, it's tremendous. But when they let in soft goals, man, that like kills you Because you're like, okay, at least do the basics. Yeah, stop the soft ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andre Agassi, famous tennis player, world-class player. What was his strength? His strength was not that the big thing for, for tennis players is they. They hammer, uh, serves, you know, a million miles an hour you can't return them right.

Speaker 4: 34:54

Andre agassi's world was at the time, the world's best returner. You can hit it as hard, but as hard as you want, but that motherfucker is gonna put it back over the net. It was insane. So you had the big.

Speaker 4: 35:06

The big matches would be pete sampras, who was a server right right he could hit the ball anywhere, on any part of the box and then somehow this little pipsqueak, andre agassi, would get the ball back. And now you have to now. Now your skill set changes now. It's just not about hammering. Now you got to run up to the net and can. Now, can he put it by? So, again, defensively. I think when yan ma says this, the only reason I bring it up is he's like hey man, like we could have been down one nil, but like tighten up back there yeah, that's.

Speaker 4: 35:37

That's all I think I got, and everybody smiles because they all knew it okay.

Speaker 3: 35:42

So he's he okay. So this is actually my experience of it. It isn't totally opposite, but it sounds like it's almost like he let the air out of that particular balloon by going ahead and saying it so that everybody wouldn't be feeling it, going back out on the field Like, oh, now we got to make up two goals because this fucking guy.

Speaker 4: 36:00

Yes, I got you. It's a big thing when a goalie goes. It's a very hockey thing. Hey, sorry, I let in that a soft goal there, boys. Oh no, don't worry about it, schmitty, it's good. Like no, no, we should have been a back check. You know, it's like this whole, but you just like own it.

Speaker 2: 36:17

A soft goal really kills your spirit, because it because you work so hard in these sports just to get anything. So, anyway, keep going here, boss. So also it was Everton. Was the club Everton? Yes, right, and they hadn't won in 80 some odd years. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:35

Something preposterous Cause. I remember. I remember beard going God man.

Speaker 4: 36:40

Yeah, yeah, listen, sorry boss. He says, okay, it's been decided, we're going to stick with Nate's false nine. I'm like, oh man, I know what he's doing here to say Nate's false nine. He's trying to show like his I wish he got boss has got the funniest face. She's like yeah, that's not how Nate's hearing it right now no-transcript so.

Speaker 3: 37:34

I want to. If my father, gaspar Alejandro Bishop, were here, he would say Nate is miserable. You know, he's just kind of a miserable fucking guy in this moment.

Speaker 4: 37:46

What would he say? Say it again. Nate is miserable. You know, he's just kind of a miserable fucking guy in this moment. What would he say? Say it again.

Speaker 3: 37:49

Nate is miserable, you know. And what he would mean by miserable is like when somebody's being miserable, in that context, the way they use it, it's like no matter what the fuck happens, this person is going to be miserable. So we think we're like making choices. It's like no Nate is to be miserable. So we think we're making choices. It's like no, nate is being fucking miserable. So if Ted had come in and gone yeah, false sign's not working, we're going back to what we do 4-4-2, blah, blah, blah, blah Then Nate would be like oh, this fucking guy is tossing my shit in the crapper.

Speaker 3: 38:25

Blah, blah, blah, we stick with it. If they come in and stick with it, it's like oh, he's trying to fuck me now. Blah, blah, blah. Oh, they went to the players to ask them, as if the players fucking know it doesn't matter, it doesn't Like. Nate is past the part where you can fix any of this Like he has decided. I mean anybody who's on either side of this in a breakup I always laugh about the thing that he's so funny can easily become. This fucking guy thinks everything's a joke once you're out of love, and I just think that's where he is at this point. If Ted literally was like he'd be like.

Speaker 4: 39:04

Now he's making a big fucking joke out of me in front of the players, or he just does it Exactly He'd be like. Now he's making a big fucking joke out of me in front of the players. Why don't I have a clown with?

Speaker 3: 39:09

a funny red nose. Exactly, it doesn't matter. He is done.

Speaker 2: 39:15

And not to get too far down. This because I think in the last episode we just analyzed Nate a lot, but when you are trying to fix a problem with things that aren't the problem, this is what happens. He is miserable for other reasons. So whatever Ted does is going to make him miserable because he is miserable.

Speaker 4: 39:33

Correct, yeah, correct, and. And coach, thank you for bringing up um. Uh, you know, it's so nice to have a funny partner. I'm sure it will never be the criticism. This asshole never takes anything seriously. I'm guessing you and I have never heard that.

Speaker 3: 39:50

oh no, it's just because we're very funny and we probably probably never translates. If ever you want to know how funny I am, you should ask daphne the number of times she has just stared at me like I had choices in this life and I fucking married you like juliana juliana was visiting one of her, one of her best friends from college, and and she married.

Speaker 4: 40:13

Um, uh name is betsy and rob. So juliana is visiting betsy and her husband rob. Rob is so fucking fun. Rob hurts my insides. He's so funny and betsy never laughs at rob. And so when juliana visits rob, it's like the height. He's so funny and betsy never laughs at rob. And so when juliana visits rob, it's like the height. He's so excited when she's there because she can't stop laughing oh yeah, you know what I mean. Great he's like, oh she's like my wife, never, ever.

Speaker 4: 40:39

This guy is like comedian love. Everything he says makes you want to you know whatever. So I so I just think it's.

Speaker 3: 40:46

Does not matter.

Speaker 4: 40:47

Does not matter, you've heard it all.

Speaker 3: 40:49

I will then, because you know it's the kind of shit I find funny, like making you go, why are we doing this show? I then will lean into all the jokes Like I like, then I don't knock it off. And then Daphne, like she just like this, is a murderous rage behind those beautiful eyes of hers Simmer down now Simmer down.

Speaker 4: 41:12

All right, boss, keep going. It's been decided we're going to stick with Night's False man.

Speaker 2: 41:16

Trying to give the guy credit, Said, hey, Captain, Then they all get in. They're, all you know, on three the hands in. Hey, Captain, you going to join us. And Isaac is in the background. He's still sitting on three the hands in. Hey, Captain, you're going to join us. Isaac is in the background. He's still sitting down.

Speaker 4: 41:31

He's not in the group Boss, hold on one sec Before we get too far down the road. Just look at the look. What do you make of this look? Is it because he said Nate's false night? There's a shot. Coach pointed out a beautiful shot of like sort of down the line cinematographers geek out about shots of people in a row and they cannot get. It's like they'll take a job. It's catnip, it's unbelievable.

Speaker 4: 41:59

No, no, you're right, I never thought about it that way, but you're 100 correct I have a friend that that landed a like a ridiculous cinematographer on one of his projects, one film, feature film he was making. And after the fact the cinematographer revealed yeah, I just had that one, I knew you're gonna, I knew who was cast.

Speaker 4: 42:18

I saw these three in my mind and I wanted to take that beauty shot of all three of them it was like the one of the last shots of the film, but it's like, yeah, so this is what you have. And it's crazy because you have roy, ted beard out of focus right and nate in focus, deep, yeah, and and he's looking at ted with.

Speaker 3: 42:40

I mean, if looks could kill yeah, and there's part like hurt, like I think his interpretation of this moment is oh so now we're going to lose and you're going to make sure I can be blamed. That's what I kind of gathered from it, which, ok, so that's his whole stuff going on, but visually you really made me stop and think about this shot. And this is this episode is really well done. You know, ted Lasso is a good show.

Speaker 4: 43:05

You know I don't know if you guys noticed.

Speaker 3: 43:10

Yeah, man, you know Ted Lasso's a good show. I don't know if you guys know this. So there are a few things going on here I want to call out. So there's the frame within the frame, which I always find interesting and by which I mean, for those of you who aren't familiar it's just you use the objects or characters in the, in the scene, to bring in the edges of the frame, so like the area where you're focusing is smaller because you're using those pieces. I mean. So we use the, we use roy, ted and beard to take away almost half the screen and then just about dead.

Speaker 3: 43:42

And they're. They're a mess, like the way they're shot. They're not individual people, right like they. Not individual people. There's literally no space between them. They're overlapping, they're like a wall there. And then Nate is one not in line, and then, because of the height of the camera, the fact that he's shorter than them is also accentuated. They are taller than us. We are on nate's level, so you're really experiencing his smallness and his aloneness, and the word right over his head is false. Now, come the fuck on. That is some serious goddamn shot composition, right there.

Speaker 3: 44:26

Yeah, I just saw the false, I'm like get the fuck out of here.

Speaker 4: 44:31

That's a really nice work right there and listen for those people that aren't in the business. Cinematographers and directors geek out about this stuff. Oh 100%.

Speaker 4: 44:41

Yeah, this is a shot where they woke up. First of all, sometimes you can storyboard it and so you draw it out ahead of time and you can plan it. But sometimes it's like wait, wait, we have the white board. Oh my god, we can actually highlight, you know, using that. Yeah, yeah, it's like, it's like just just nudge it a little bit, oh my god, or, you know, you slide the camera over it's uh, it's, it's like crack, um. Okay, boss, sorry, we've, we've held off long going, please sorry.

Speaker 2: 45:08

I can't believe that you guys went down a tangent. That's fucking ridiculous. Yeah, so after that Nate's specific call out, everybody's in the huddle. Ted looks over, notices Isaac, says hey, captain, you gonna join us. And Isaac gets up, walk, walks around the huddle and reaches over. Sorry, walks through the huddle and then goes up and puts his hand on the belief sign boss.

Speaker 4: 45:45

Boss is is a tough cookie, but I get misty every single time. I am emotional right now. I've seen this 25 times, right every time when he walks in, I did not know what he was doing when he pushed I didn't, I didn't know.

Speaker 3: 46:02

Yeah, I was like what's he doing?

Speaker 4: 46:03

is he like quitting? Like what, what? What is happening? He like it's really weird. Anytime you have your hands in the center, nobody goes and pushes through the hands and breaks them up. That's psychotic.

Speaker 3: 46:16

Yeah, it's actually for a moment. It seems like he's trying to break up the team. Yeah, what is happening? What are you doing?

Speaker 4: 46:22

Yeah, and I was like, is this a moses reference? I was like, what am I? What am I looking at? Yeah, where he's parting everything, and he walks up I, I, I almost I don't know if I can say it, it gets me so emotional. He walks up and he puts his fucking hand on the belief sign and I'm not I'm the one that that rails against the concept of believe and makes you know, makes I, I I've talked about it, this whole podcast, about you got to be real careful about belief, um, but in this context, man, oh boy, it is isaac, of all people too, fucking rhinoceros, you know, like he's such a, he's such a like a, just like this, like this, this force of nature, and so, yes, he barges through everybody, right, it's like so, once you see it and you see what he does, then it makes complete. It's like, of course, that's what he did.

Speaker 3: 47:20

It's amazing. Yes to everything you just said. This one definitely hits me hard and in part, I mean, you know, as, as we've established several times in this conversation I um, I really, in this episode in particular, connect to the coaching piece and when you see if you're ted in this moment, when you see that they got it now, yeah, that is, I mean, I guess, maybe not for every coach, but for me, where I'm invested on that level, when I'm like, oh, you got it now, like you, you, you don't need me. I'm pretty sure I told the story before. I was getting some kids ready for this championship game.

Speaker 3: 48:04

These boys and, um, you know, final practice. We were, if, if people bet on middle school games, we would have been heavy betting favorites, and so they were. So they were super, they were getting really lax in practice and I and I went off, right, I, like I went off and I was like you can lose this game. Do you hear me? You're going to run everything we did and you're going to throw it away. Right, hold me. So we keep practicing and at one point the quarterback is on the center and they jumped, they false, started, which is, for those of you who don't know American football, like all the players, all the offensive players, have to move at the same time when the ball moves. And one of the players moved early and the quarterback just stood up and said come on, guys, let's go. And they just went and ran down and back and I turned to the assistant oh, they ran like a lap.

Speaker 3: 49:00

I didn't say a word. No, like I'm out there with another coach. Neither of us said a word. And they ran down and back and we both looked at each other like it is fucking over. They punished themselves. Yeah, the game is over, it is all done now. But the shout and we are gonna fucking crush this. But yeah, so to me like to go and touch to believe. And also, you're talking about a guy who, the first time he did this, had them break on what was it? Eight or twelve or whatever? Oh God.

Speaker 4: 49:31

So how far has he come? And he skipped nine or something. Yeah, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 49:35

So how far has this guy come. So anyway, love it.

Speaker 4: 49:42

All you boss.

Speaker 2: 49:43

All me. So after Isaac puts his hand up, he looks back at everyone else and I think it's key that at this point Nate sort of shakes his head Like he can't believe that this is what they're doing. He's already gone, he's already so far out Like he is fucking done.

Speaker 4: 50:02

Actually, that's a great Actually. That is. You know, boss. I don't know if you meant that for that to be as prophetic as it, but you're right.

Speaker 2: 50:11

Oh, he's out, he's already gone. He's completely checked out already. Absolutely no interest in this club.

Speaker 4: 50:20

When was he gone? When did he go? I mean, walking in that black suit was definitely a sign that, wherever it was, it was behind him. I mean okay, but he was still cheering for them during the game. In his own way, he was like still do this thing. I think, once it became Okay, is it because he just doesn't have the belief, he doesn't understand the teamwork, he doesn't understand the unity that it takes, the togetherness, the shared goals.

Speaker 2: 50:51

It's that none of those things worked for him. It's that none of those things gave him what he wanted, which is to be the most respected person in the room.

Speaker 2: 51:02

And so it doesn't matter if it's true or not. It's not right for him. Now that we've been talking about it a little bit, I believe a lot of what he was doing uh, leaking about Ted's panic attacks, kissing Keely, being a dick in general Some of it was him wanting to flex and show off that he could be in charge. I think the last few the things within the last few days on the show off that he could be in charge. I think the last few the things within the last few days on the show keely and um trent were him throwing a tantrum, acting out rebelling because he wanted ted to respond to it and because ted didn't give him that, I think a lot of things culminated.

Speaker 2: 51:41

But I think he was expecting ted to come in and say, like, what the fuck did you do? Because at least then he knows he's important to Ted. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 51:49

Yeah, yeah, it's negative energy.

Speaker 3: 51:51

Yeah, yeah, you know, I thought about that to a certain point, but you've taken it for like a lot deeper than I was going with it and I think you're a hundred percent right. I think. If, yeah, I think you're right I think if at some point ted had jumped up and down, then he would at least feel like at least I matter to you but, because ted was letting it go. He felt ignored.

Speaker 4: 52:15

That's interesting even when, when he gave that look to ted just now, ted was looking at the team ted. Ted was focused.

Speaker 3: 52:22

He didn't realize this is a dance we're doing also appropriately so, though, like I think part of what we have to recognize with nate is nate is about nate. This, this version of him, certainly he's about nate, and whether that was always true, but he was so powerless that we didn't mind it, or whether whatever. At this point he is just all about Nate. And so even the idea, like Nate, nobody's worrying about you or your motherfucking false nine we're touching the believe sign. We're on some other shit. You could be on that with us. You have not chosen that and you want to make that about us fucking up your day.

Speaker 3: 53:02

We wouldn't think about you, we would think about the team. We were thinking about the team, just like right now. Maybe Yann Mas ain't a big fan of the false nine, but he knows it could work and so he's like, yeah, fuck it, let's do it, let's make it work. I'm sure Jamie would love to just run around and do whatever the fuck he wants, but he's doing the right thing. So Nate's not getting that. It's not about you, bro, it's just not.

Speaker 1: 53:27

Can you tell? I'm about to have a team meeting on Sunday.

Speaker 3: 53:31

I'm going into some serious coach mode here.

Speaker 4: 53:33

We got our hands on the belief signs. It ain't about your motherfucking false nine bro.

Speaker 3: 53:39

No, what are you doing Like talk about missing the fucking point.

Speaker 2: 53:43

I mean, that's the thing, though, with him is that the point is they're not paying attention to him. This is the area in which he is supposed to excel, that he is supposed to be given recognition, and it's not about him, and that's what he's pissed off about.

Speaker 3: 53:56

And what's fascinating is, if he would just calm the fuck down Can't, can't do it he could hear that he's getting all kinds. He was getting credit when he was still a literal shit kicker Can't do it that guy's a genius. Maybe he'll know more soccer. You know more football than I'll ever know.

Speaker 2: 54:12

Yeah, dad just doesn't love him enough, can't do it.

Speaker 4: 54:16

All right. So everybody's got their hands up on the Believe sign, richmond on three Richmond. And then, like you're saying, coach, everybody gets it. If you get it, you get it. And Ted like kind of nods appreciatively and Nate looks completely nonplussed. He's like are you fucking kidding me? Like he's so, like I shouldn't be laughing about it because it's I shouldn't be laughing about it, but you know it is it's.

Speaker 3: 54:47

I shouldn't be laughing about it, but you know it's hilarious though, because it can be very, very funny when someone is unhappy as other people are very happy. Yeah, yeah, that someone else's happiness makes someone unhappy Like that is something we've seen in movies forever. Make someone unhappy like that is something we've seen in movies forever. That's like the end of half the old, like disney. You know, kid movies was, you know some some jerk stomping off into the distance because they didn't get their way right.

Speaker 4: 55:17

I mean, you know, the great nelly olsen perfected the craft um, it's true, john larroquette ending up in in, uh, like Us, he ends up stationed in Antarctica or something that's right, that's right.

Speaker 3: 55:29

You know what I mean. So, yeah, so I think you know. Right now, as he stands there in his black suit and is, you know, just having sold Ted out, there's a reason you find it funny that things can't go well enough for him. Like, the better they go, the more angry he's going to be, which is insane.

Speaker 4: 55:51

Yeah, no, it's nuts. And so he everyone else runs out, beard follows. You know, roy's already out the door with the players. Beard taps Ted on the chest and goes by, and then it's like Nate and Ted. Oh wait, did I, did I say that wrong? Boss looked at me like I said it wrong. Beard taps. No, he taps Ted on the chest. Yes, he goes by. I didn't know if I accidentally said he taps Nate on the chest, just looking around. See that you don't move your head while I'm talking. Please, boss, if that's possible. Jesus, jesus, with all the looking. But yeah, so now she's nodding, thank you.

Speaker 2: 56:26

Thank you for the affirmation. Now I'm only moving my head, smile and nod, and not make any noise. Yeah, how dare I?

Speaker 4: 56:34

Yeah, so Beard is out, it's just Ted and Nate. And Ted notices Nate's vector, which is not heading the same direction. Coach Not going.

Speaker 3: 56:45

Like literally not going in the same direction as the team. Like literally he heads off into his office to stew.

Speaker 4: 56:54

And what happens in here, Coach.

Speaker 3: 56:57

So Ted comes in, nate's facing away from the door. Ted comes in, stands sort of like straddling the doorway hey, nate is everything okay. Yes, ted, everything's okay. He says as dramatically as he possibly can.

Speaker 4: 57:17

There's a moment here, there's a moment where Ted can pull it back right. So look, when he goes, hey, nate, and Nate says hey, there's like a hey moment oh yeah, I guess he still hasn't?

Speaker 3: 57:31

he can sell it. Yeah, he can sell that.

Speaker 4: 57:33

He was just saying hey well, I guess, I guess, but it's also like I. I still see a tiny bit of doubt on on nate, like he, like uh, darth sidious hasn't completely captured his soul yet. Oh, I see. If the next thing out of Ted's mouth. No no boss says no. What are you looking at, boss?

Speaker 2: 57:54

What is it Please?

Speaker 3: 57:56

just get him Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2: 57:59

No, no, no. I think that when we are talking about so, I don't believe that any person is irredeemable, I don't. I think, even if you are absolute garbage, if you have done nothing, if you have done nothing but absolute garbage your entire life, you could still theoretically switch that up, stop doing garbage and become I don't want to even say a decent person, but a person that does decent things, or one decent, even say a decent person, but a person that does decent things or one decent right.

Speaker 2: 58:31

You guys both have this sort of like who you are underneath, blah, blah, blah you have mentioned. I should at least say both of you have talked about what you do versus who you are, and I am of the Batman Begins mindset in that it's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that matters. Your actions are how people judge you. I don't know what you're thinking, and what you're thinking could be a lie, but I can see what you do and I can make judgments on that. So Nate as a person when you said Dark Sidious hasn't gotten his claws all the way into him yet. Maybe I don't fucking know. I know, based on the end of this episode, that Nate is already checked out of this team and doesn't want to be here anymore. It feels like he's not being appreciated, has said to his coworkers that he doesn't feel like he's been given enough recognition.

Speaker 4: 59:22

Correct. I just see in this moment I'm not disputing that and I love thank you for the Batman Begins. I just see, in this moment I'm not saying I'm not disputing that and I love thank you for the Batman Begins rep. I'm a big fan of that movie. It's great, just really enjoy it. But I just see this little bit. You know I We've talked about Nick Muhammad and just how skilled he is and there's this beat here of doubt right before he fully gets real nasty with Ted.

Speaker 3: 59:52

Here's how I would describe what I see and tell me if it's just another view of what you're describing. Okay, I see a bit of the wounded boy, absolutely. And then so I don't know, spiritually, figuratively, metaphorically, however we want to talk about it he spits in the mirror. Now, this is the spit in the mirror. Yeah, but the spit in the mirror is a choice. Nate is making that when I feel most exposed for being, you know, this scared boy or whatever, weakling, that I will summon it in that way.

Speaker 4: 1:00:42

And so he chooses that he's been courting negative attention this whole time. He's courting it right. In lieu of positive attention to ted, he's courting negative attention. And now ted has fully like his him storming away successfully got ted's attention. Now it's just the two of them. Ted says hey, nate, and he says hey, and then the next thing out of like, if the next thing this is just again, there's no way to know this kind of thing, but just judging from what I'm seeing on the screen, that's exactly right. You're looking at a wounded boy who needs to hear the exact thing he's looking to hear. What is the tank, possibly?

Speaker 3: 1:01:20

gonna say I have a time machine and we're gonna go back to when you were five, like I don't think Right but it's not Ted's responsibility.

Speaker 3: 1:01:30

Ted can't know this, even if let's say for a second, forget responsibility, let's say for a second, what you're saying is true, that even theoretically one could say a thing at a moment like this that pulls a person back from the press, the break right of, I'm diving into you. What is he gonna say to him right now? Because he done said it's nate, we're doing nate's false nine. Oh, nate, just like he is being, he is past the point, oh for sure. It's like when a little kid is like I want pizza and you hand them pizza and they throw the pizza on the floor and scream and you're like well, what do you want? And they say pizza and you go, oh what.

Speaker 4: 1:02:20

Oh, coach. So that's where we are. Coach, you misunderstand me. I'm the master of the temporary fix as a divorced man. You know how many times I pulled my ex back from the brink. You know what I mean To try to say, oh, I'll appease her this way. You know what I'm saying, like I'm saying Okay, so what would you? Say it's not a fix. It is not a fix.

Speaker 3: 1:02:41

I'm saying but at this moment would it be yeah, I don't like who knows, he has, he has, I don't know like I feel like he has done it all I guess what I'm saying is maybe, maybe the important takeaway from this is the excellence of nick muhammad.

Speaker 4: 1:02:55

To give him not a linear uh, you know, like, like. There is this sort of roiling self-doubt in this moment, so it's not this portrayal of Nate where he's like nah, it's just like a evil prick right away. You know, it's like this, this loss?

Speaker 3: 1:03:13

Yeah, we are seeing some, you know yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:03:16

And as soon as he's like yo okay, like as soon as, as soon as he hears some Oakley, doakley, nebraska, horse shit, whatever and not not to malign the good people of Omaha, but I'm just saying in general, when he hears that then he Wait, omaha, omaha, nebraska. I just threw in Nebraska because it was the center of our country, so I was just saying that's famously not where he's from.

Speaker 2: 1:03:42

Oh I know, I know. I'm saying, I'm throwing, I'm lumping in the central states yeah, yeah, yeah, because you're a festival lead, I got it. No, no, no, we can continue. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, they're all, it's all, it's all the same.

Speaker 4: 1:03:54

No, I'm not saying that I love, I've, I have, I have gone on record on this podcast to say how much I actually love omaha, um and nebraska. I've been in north platte. I've been to the largest train switch yard in the world.

Speaker 3: 1:04:06

Some of his best friends in Nebraska.

Speaker 2: 1:04:11

Yeah, some of his best friends, at least two of them, two of them he worked with. I understand what you're saying about his wounded face. I get it. I do think that that is Nick Muhammad being an excellent actor. The only thing that I'll say is that, again, I like to point out how we interpret and code different behaviors in men, and that we saw Nate being timid in the first season and we thought, oh, that means he's sweet. And we see him being wounded here and we think, oh, he is vulnerable, he is damaged. A wounded animal is often the most dangerous one. So I understand that he is wounded, but I don't want to say that that makes him more sympathetic, or anything?

Speaker 4: 1:04:50

yeah, no, excellent point, excellent point. So we get the hey, and then what happens here, coach?

Speaker 3: 1:04:58

um, I just want to know one thing before we go forward with the scene, which is based on what boss just said and somebody had uh posted this and really stuck with me which is, if you don't heal, if you don't heal where you're wounded, you'll bleed on people who didn't cut you yeah, yeah, yeah you mentioned that one before you like it. I mean, yeah, it's good shit I mean wow, and I think there's a great example of that. Yeah coach, because this is not about what happened in this building.

Speaker 4: 1:05:27

You and I have done that for most of our lives, and then we've given people who we've bled on, who didn't deserve it, quizzical looks about like what's your fucking problem?

Speaker 3: 1:05:38

Problem, you're not wrong. I don't know how we got on me. We're talking about me, no, no, it's all your fault, coach it.

Speaker 4: 1:05:44

I don't know how we got on me. We're talking about me, no, no, it's all your fault, coach. It's all your fault.

Speaker 3: 1:05:47

I don't know how I became the goddamn talker I will say for me, I have definitely done that.

Speaker 4: 1:05:52

I have definitely done that and I love that quote. It's fantastic. All right, so here we go. Yes, ted, everything is okay.

Speaker 3: 1:05:59

And then what? Yeah, very, very snarky, though, very yeah, anyone who's been married knows that one Everything is most definitely not okay. What is it? What did I do? We get from Ted and, interestingly, we're outside at this point. We are looking into the office through the big window and the doorway. They are separated by the frame there. So it's really we are pulled back and out of all this for that moment when he's asking that it's like a private moment that we're kind of keeping in on Right, yep.

Speaker 3: 1:06:41

So he asked. Then he has what have I got to learn here? Which is, you know, know, it's borderline rosa parks in the donut, I mean. But okay, say it that way if that's the way you want to say it. Um, you don't know what you did.

Speaker 3: 1:06:56

Nate starts, yeah, please. Okay, I'll tell you what you did. You made me feel like I was the most important person in the world, and then you abandoned me, like you switched off. You switched out a light, just like that, and I worked my ass off trying to get your attention back, to prove myself to you, to make you like me again. But the more, the more I did, the less you cared. It was like I was fucking invisible. You haven't got that photo I gave you for christmas up in your office, just a picture of dumb Americans. Now you're going to play Nate's false nine, so when the team fuck up which they will, hey, you can blame it on me. Well, no, fuck that. Everybody loves you. Now we're really getting to where we are.

Speaker 3: 1:07:40

The great Ted Lasso. Well, I think you're a fucking joke. Without me, you wouldn't have won a single match. They would have shipped your ass back to Kansas, where you belong with your son, because you sure as hell don't belong here, but I do, I belong here. This didn't just fall into my lap. All right, I earned this. I know you didn't, nate, and if I didn't tell you how important you were to me enough, I'm sorry about that. No, you know what? You're full of shit. Just fuck you, ted, and see, it was a lot. It was a lot.

Speaker 4: 1:08:18

I mean dumb Americans. In what world is that true?

Speaker 3: 1:08:24

yeah, I can't think of any situation.

Speaker 4: 1:08:28

Aren't we God's chosen people For our friends outside of the boundaries of the United States? I just want to inform you that we are.

Speaker 3: 1:08:37

I just wanted to let you know, because you didn't hear any propaganda.

Speaker 4: 1:08:41

No, luckily, all of us were born into the right religion, uh, geographically, wherever we were born, and uh, and we happen to be, uh, the chosen people, I know you are also wherever you are in the world you've been given the line that you're the chosen people. It's incorrect that you're the chosen people. I just want everyone to know that uh, that's my dumb americans are the chosen I, I always.

Speaker 3: 1:09:04

I wish I could remember the exact quote, but somebody wrote or said essentially it really is amazing of all the people to whom God speaks, he always agrees with what they thought in the first place. I think that is a brilliant assessment. I love it.

Speaker 4: 1:09:22

Anyhow, we always talk about Coach and I want to make a short film about all the people that lose ballgames. And you know, when people win a ballgame, you know big oh, yeah, yeah yeah, and they say like oh God was with us today. I just want to interview all the people that lose Like, oh man, we didn't pray hard enough, like we should have been praying. Instead, we were doing these drills, these shooting drills.

Speaker 3: 1:09:47

But it goes to show anyway I don't want to take it too far, but it goes to show like how off base we are, because actually, that is absolutely certainly I can speak to the Christian tradition I was raised in. That would be the appropriate response. It would be I thank you for the loss. Maybe it's something for me to learn from this loss. Maybe it's something for me to learn about preparation. Maybe I just have to learn that sometimes my best isn't good enough.

Speaker 4: 1:10:18

There is an actual prayer to be said in thanksgiving for a loss, but it speaks to our general misunderstanding of the whole thing that we would only say it when we win well, there's a lot, absolutely right, there's a ton to unpack here and, uh, you know, when nate takes a shot, you should be in canvas, where you belong, with your kit, like that, that is. That is such a low blow. I can't even. I was like god, go ahead, boss, go well.

Speaker 2: 1:10:51

It reminded me a lot of um uh tracy jordan on 30 rock telling kenneth we're not best friends, we're just good friends. And I kind of want to be like hey, nate, he's your boss, like he's your boss, like he is your boss, he isn't your dad, he isn't your best friend. If he were your best friend, then this kind of shit about his son and the dumb Americans and everything else would be really dirty fighting.

Speaker 3: 1:11:18

Like I understand that he is having a lot of emotions and I'm not trying to pretend that he isn't experiencing them, but I'm saying he is projecting his anger on somebody who doesn't deserve it a hundred percent and I, and I really think that because we're watching, uh, a show with some of the feedback that we've gotten about, you know some what, some of what we've said about Nate as a character and or the execution of the arc, that there's a sort of like but we love Nate and and, and I didn't think I'm thinking of a situation in my own life where some there's a group of us, three of us who you know would talk, and one person was having trouble at work, and the more they told us about the trouble at work, the clearer it became.

Speaker 3: 1:12:08

These motherfuckers got a point man like, yeah, I think, I think it's you, yeah, and it became really uncomfortable, you know. I mean because at a certain point you know we can just sit there and act like we agree with every crazy thing he was saying, like we were just like nah, man, I think they have a point, or you got to do that, um, and so I guess that's where I feel with Nate, like, even if, because I've worked in situations where people were very personal and in good and bad ways and where they might have been a yelling match or there might have been whatever but to me what you talked about is the dirty fighting of it.

Speaker 3: 1:12:49

Yeah, that is what I I mean it really speaks to what else we know he's done, and I also think it's just so profound the stories we tell ourselves. Yes, because he does not know where that picture is.

Speaker 3: 1:13:06

He assumes it's in a garbage, can, I guess? Or, who knows, buried in some box. That's what he thinks, and he has continued his story from there about what that means. Yeah, so to him he is pissed about a real thing, but he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about pissed about a real thing, but like he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

Speaker 2: 1:13:28

Well, it also it. So if he had said to ted you are doing this thing and it's so out of character that I need to address it, I feel like that is the way that you know you call your boys or your whoever you call them on their shit, you're like, hey, listen, you're. You're fucking up, and you don't usually fuck up like this, so we need to talk about it. But what he says is you don't have the picture, you have the stupid Americans. You're not with your son, even though you should be. And then also says you said we're going to play Nate's false nine, so when we fuck up, you're going to blame me. Not only has Ted never done that. Would that be wildly out of character for Ted that? Yet.

Speaker 2: 1:14:02

He is getting mad at Ted about things that haven't happened.

Speaker 4: 1:14:05

That's what he would do. He would set something up. That's 100% what he would do when Trump says, of course everybody steals as soon as they get in the presidency. He cannot fathom a world where somebody wouldn't set up a fall guy in the eventuality. That's just how Nate thinks.

Speaker 2: 1:14:25

I guess my only point with all this is I I believe that the writers were going for Nate having a breakthrough with Ted, an emotional breakthrough of some sort. All I got from it was wanting to say to Nate like hey, dude, you've got to like review the shit that you just said. You are wildly out of pocket, like you're not. What you're saying doesn't make any sense, and so it's not that I don't feel. I understand that he is in pain. I feel the pain that he is feeling. I get that part, but I'm also like we can't do fuck all about that, because you're not really mad at me yeah, and he's incapable of recognizing that.

Speaker 3: 1:15:08

I think what I actually I'm glad we kind of hit this a little bit more because I think I got to one of the things that bothers me about this scene and I mean you know it actually was well executed. When you're the Ted in this conversation, you are expected by everyone, including the Nate in this conversation and yourself, to be the big one, which means you just take the shots Because Ted easily, ted knows the deal. Ted easily could be like don't worry about me and my son. At least when I see my son I have a nice motherfucking word to say to him. I mean, he could, they could, he could have coach is transitioning to coach mode.

Speaker 4: 1:16:02

This is this is fascinating to watch. This is like fascinating that that wouldn't even occur. That's amazing. That is amazing. Right, he could. Okay, your point is you gotta be a strong, silent type and absorb, and then but, and he's guess what?

Speaker 3: 1:16:18

yeah, he's. He's fucking wounded too, and sometimes I think that gets lost in these kinds of conversations and analyses like he's got his own pain. Just because he's Ted and he's a head coach doesn't mean that he doesn't have his own pain. What Nate just said was I mean, I think Boss Nail maybe probably started me down this road. What irks me about this, it's not just the anger, it's the willingness to fight dirty. Willingness to fight dirty. I think you have to have some rules in your fighting. You may end up cutting this, but I'm going to connect it to something. You really may end up cutting this. Yeah, it's bad. October 7th I'm going there.

Speaker 3: 1:17:07

When it went down a Monsonet attack, there were people who made points with degrees of tact that an oppressed people are going to do whatever they feel they have to do to resist. Okay, let's just take that on his face. My response to that, in a very flat but raised me way, was yeah, but there's still got to be rules to that shit. Like, there's still rules to this shit. Like you cannot, like you, don't you? You don't kick in granny's door. I don't give a fuck what happened. I don't give a fuck what happened. You don't kick in granny's door. I don't give a fuck what happened. I don't give a fuck what happened. You don't kick in granny's door. And I don't understand like there always have to be rules and when people aren't willing to have any rules, that's when you get what we've got in the world right now. You have to have some rules.

Speaker 2: 1:18:03

Well, I agree with you on the having of some rules. I think I would interpret it as not that there are artificially enforced rules, but that there are natural consequences of actions and people wildly under or overestimate the amount of leverage that they have on other people.

Speaker 4: 1:18:22

Yes.

Speaker 2: 1:18:23

So there are plenty of times where somebody will say about me I am a bitch, or loud or obnoxious or something else, and 90% of the time I'm going to be like well, that's fine, I don't know you and I don't care.

Speaker 4: 1:18:37

Sorry, I just said it. I was going to say I forwarded the emails, Coach.

Speaker 3: 1:18:41

Sorry, I meant to tell you.

Speaker 4: 1:18:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no.

Speaker 2: 1:18:50

It's coach. Sorry, I meant to tell you yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I'll let you in Natural, yeah, sorry. So like I don't and this is maybe the way that I've talked about relationships being transactional for me in a way that I feel okay with, and that if what you have is I think you're fun and cool and interesting and I want to be your friend, I'm going to do shit to try to make you my friend. So that transaction is I do things that I hope make you like me, because you do things that make me like you, and so it's not. It's not a I'm going to buy this for you and you're going to like me, except for my nieces. I will bribe those bitches every fucking day. That makes sense.

Speaker 4: 1:19:16

That's fair.

Speaker 2: 1:19:17

That's fair. So it's. It's a. If you don't have anything to offer me, then telling me that you're not going to give me the shit that I don't care about doesn't it creates no natural consequences, because I don't care if you're in my life or not. I understand that that sounds mean, but like there are 7 billion people in the world, I have to not care about most of them. So in this case, nate is trying to say, like I am in so much pain that you need to respond to it, so I'm going to hurt you enough that, until you respond to what I'm being upset about. But what he's upset about, ted can't do shit about. He is right, you can't. You can't just make people care about things partially yes, you're absolutely right that.

Speaker 4: 1:19:59

No, I love everything you said, but also ted, if ted. So one of the byproducts of being a parent, um, kids who are classified you never know what word you can use because it changes so quickly, but neurodivergent is one of the terms or atypical, or whatever. All of my kids in one way or another. Four children. They all have various wonderful genetic traits that I've passed down and you're welcome kids. And so one of the things that happens with at least three out of the four is something they call mind reading. So they say I don't know, I don't have, my social skills are challenged in this particular situation, just any given situation. So I'm going to attribute what I think you're thinking and then I'm going to react accordingly. And so I have to constantly be like stop my reading and just ask the question. And what you have here, what you have here, is a failure to communicate. You have this moment where, if we break it down quickly, we say what are you talking about? Oh, come on, man, you're mad as hell at me. I just want to know why. Okay, good, ted's finally addressing it. Ted knows this isn't the time Ted would pick to address it, but Nate is literally walking away. He doesn't have a choice in the matter. So he's okay, he's going to be the bigger person. What have I got to learn here? I actually really like as a. It's like okay, what am I? What did I screw up? Like I like him owning that he has to do something. What did I do to get us into this situation? You know what I mean? Yes, okay. So the response is has parts to it. The first part is mind reading, as nate is saying this stuff uh, ted is responding. They show reaction shots of of ted and it's like he has no idea what the hell nate's talking like this. He did not. He was not part of this, right? Uh, you want to know what you did? Oh, yeah, I'll tell you what you did. You may feel like the most part of the question, yes, we know this.

Speaker 4: 1:22:05

Certain people a boss rightly points out that this is a boss, this is a manager, it's a professional relationship, yes, but there are certain managers who transcend the teachers, managers, people in a, in a information or organizational role, who uh, information is not correct, uh, organizational role, something fundamental to your existence, and they transcend by virtue of how they choose to deal with people. They transcend the normal bounds of whatever the job is. Coach Bishop is like this when he coaches you, it doesn't feel just like a coach. It feels like dad, mentor, grandpa, like it's like a million things where you got, like best friend. You know all of the things coach puts. He can't help it. If I told him to stop it hey, don't do it He'd be like I don't know what the fuck. He couldn't do it if he wanted to. It's just how it happens. You may feel like I'm most important person in the world and then you abandoned me.

Speaker 4: 1:23:01

Ted did not abandon him. So right away, ted is like what is happening? Right, you switched out of light just like that and I worked my ass off. And now Ted is like wait, when did this? When did I abandon you? When were you trying to get my attention back? I worked my ass off to get my attention back, prove myself to you, to make you like me again. But the more I did, the less you cared. It was like I was fucking invisible part.

Speaker 4: 1:23:23

That part is mind reading. He has decided to react based on what he thought. Now there's a little more mind reading. You haven't even got the photo I gave him Christmas. He's attributing something to that, exactly like you both said, has nothing to do with the truth.

Speaker 4: 1:23:35

Ted could refute it, but he's just absorbing and listening. Now it gets nasty For Christmas up in your office. Just a picture of dumb Americans. It's just a picture of dumb americans. It's just a picture of dumb americans. Okay, uh, thanks, buddy. Um, that's where you go. Oh, like, if you're listening to this and absorbing, now, at least for me, a little tiny wall of protection goes up. I'm like okay, when you were wrong and I could have easily refuted it. Now I'm like, okay, whatever. But now, listening to this, you go, oh jesus christ, like, okay, you're full of like something else in a. So now you're gonna play nate's false nine.

Speaker 4: 1:24:13

When team fuck now this is a different part of the speech, of the reaction he's he's escalating. Dumb americans is a personal attack. Uh, he's now attributing when you play fault nate's false nine, he mocks it like, he repeats it in a way that is mockery. Uh, when the team fucks up, which they will, hey, you can blame it on me. Well, no, fuck that. So I'm gonna call. I'm smarter than you, we all know I'm smarter than you. I'm gonna call it out. I know what the fuck you're doing. Maybe everyone else thinks you're uh, dudley, do right. But I know you're a scheming prick, because I am. I only know scheming pricks. Therefore you must be one. Now. Everybody loves you. The great Ted Lasso. This is wildly personal, right? Well, I think you're a fucking joke.

Speaker 4: 1:24:59

Without me, you wouldn't have won a single match. They would have shipped your ass back to Kansas, where you belong, with your son, because you sure as don't hell belong here, but I do. I belong here. This just didn't fall into my lap. I earned that. Oh yeah, no, you did earn it because he came. He was the one person. The guy you're yelling at was the one person that believed in you and gave you this job. Um, and that's the only, that's the first time ted speaks up. He to to reiterate the correctness of yes, you earned this job so.

Speaker 3: 1:25:32

So there's a ton there and actually I'm glad you did that breakdown in terms of the flow of the speech for me. First of all. Yes, he is. He is telling you what you call mind reading. I've called storytelling, I think, but there's always like what do you actually know?

Speaker 3: 1:25:53

Here's the part for me that I was like nate, this is just about how you feel about yourself, the great ted las. Like once you go there, like listen, man, I just showed up and it was me. I didn't do anything or whatever. This is who I am everywhere. Have you seen the Wichita State Shockers video? Like I made SportsCenter dude Right, like this is what the fuck I do?

Speaker 3: 1:26:19

So like there was something very I just I guess and I get that he's hurt, but I guess my sense of Nate here was he would have said literally anything to cause Ted pain. So I don't even think there is any sense to be made of this speech in a real way, right, other than I am hurting and until I see you wince, I won't be satisfied and and that's why actually I I understand why, in terms of how one is supposed to have these conversations, what am I supposed to learn here? Felt right. Yeah, speaking for myself, if I'm pissed off enough. I don't want to hear any sayings, any stock de-escalation, shit platitudes, oh no one day at a time coach.

Speaker 3: 1:27:17

It's not worth it.

Speaker 1: 1:27:17

Orlando, listen I'll let you know if it's fucking worth it.

Speaker 3: 1:27:21

Apparently it is worth it I pissed. Fuck's the matter with you. So I think in a way, yes, I understand why you say it's a great way to start the conversation, but in a way it's an extension of it's an extension of Roy saying no big deal. You kissed my girlfriend. Yeah. It's aw you all right, son. Are we okay now Sport, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:27:54

You know what I mean? Yes, he would have appreciated it. You better get your shit together, because that would have been yeah, at least that's what he needed, so.

Speaker 2: 1:28:03

I'm trying hard not to fanfic rewrite season two, to be more closely a mirror of season one, or a foil, I should say. Season one everything went great. Season two here's how everything could have gone, could have broken bad, and I have all sorts of ideas about how, uh, instead of getting into a romantic relationship, rebecca should have been forced to trade Sam in order to save the team, instead of trading Jamie in order to ruin the team, like she did in season one. That kind of shit. There is a version of this season where Nate was saying the great Ted Lasso as a foil for his the great Roy Kent.

Speaker 4: 1:28:43

I was just going to say that for his, the great roy kent, I was just gonna say that where they say you have to doff your cap because that was the height of of nate's like, that was when he rose, that was when he had, yes, the great roy kent yeah, every criticism was correct, everyone was valid, everyone was inbounds.

Speaker 2: 1:28:59

Every one of them was this is what you were doing wrong on the pitch and how you were fucking this up. Yeah, and this is great point you don't make me feel good the way that you're supposed to. So fuck you and fuck your son.

Speaker 4: 1:29:11

It's like whoa whoa whoa, whoa, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:29:14

Yeah, you know what you nailed it. That's exactly right.

Speaker 4: 1:29:17

I was going to say it and then I said, oh, I'm not going to answer, I'll let boss talk first. Then she took all the accolades I wrote. Actually this is in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 1:29:26

You know what I earned it and you didn't, so why?

Speaker 4: 1:29:30

don't you go back to Kansas? No, it's absolutely beautiful and you're right. You're right, boss. What a great point he was like the thing about him in season one at this moment was him seeing the truth about everything so clearly? And now it's the exact opposite. He is just like this is all nonsense. If you step back and you have enough distance, like you know, we're seeing this well after, uh, this episode aired and and we're just, like you can, kind of tsk at it where you're like come on, man, this is stupid, because I mean, you're not even close to right. Like not.

Speaker 3: 1:30:06

And also, when someone gets to this place, I mean it's like arguing with a drunk. That's another reason why I feel there's nothing you could have. You know like he's done, but I think in seeing how done he is, I find myself going you're not even making sense. Like, slow down for a second. You think this man who has one of the most enviable jobs on planet earth is tanking that job so that he can make you look like an idiot? Like sometimes you have to like walk yourself through the actual logic of what you're saying and really ask like is that what you actually believe is happening?

Speaker 4: 1:30:51

right, yeah, hey man, I don't want to rain on your parade here. I know you're trying to get a lot off your chest, but like is this how when? You played it over in your head. Is this how you wanted it?

Speaker 3: 1:30:58

is this how?

Speaker 2: 1:30:59

this is this your theory of the case, because that's fucking bonkers nate this is one of the reasons why uh, even though I know that they are used a bit much and not even a bit much, but they're referenced a lot you making I statements is has been so important for me, not just in that when I communicate with people it comes off better because I am not blaming them for other things.

Speaker 2: 1:31:23

But when I say that I am internalizing for myself, this thing happened and I felt a way about it. I take responsibility for my emotions. That's right, nobody did anything to make me feel that way.

Speaker 2: 1:31:35

But then I can come back and say, hey, so when you do this shit, I don't feel great and I would like, if you care about my feelings, please don't do this shit. But instead he's like like no, you made me feel this way because you're a bad father. It's like, okay, well, you probably should have been spending some more time with dr sharon then, because you, you missed the boat on that fucking shit oh, completely.

Speaker 3: 1:31:56

I, yeah, I I know it's part of the story and and we'll have more opportunity to talk about it in season three, but I somehow this narrative of ted abandoned his kid I get how I guess serves what I don't agree. Like it's not at all how I would describe the situation that landed this man here.

Speaker 2: 1:32:21

And once you've got a job like this, like it's not a fucking internship, like you took the job it's weird to me that, and it's in a lot of places I feel like you know where the conversation has been very much like well, when he abandoned his son, I'm like when did he abandon his son? I mean, I will fully say girls5.com shout out that it would have been viewed as abandonment had a woman done it, because we unfairly If a woman did it, it would have been abandoned Because we hold women to a higher standard of parenting than men, do we?

Speaker 4: 1:33:00

That's news to me. Huh, that's an interesting theory out of left field. Interesting theory, can you imagine. I mean, I've never seen any evidence of that boss.

Speaker 3: 1:33:15

Once online, I have to tell, because it made me laugh, because it was so preposterous that I just had to laugh. I was having an exchange with somebody online and I brought up the gi bill. Um did not only apply to white soldiers, so, like, all that generational wealth that was built up, like that just didn't happen for black people. And he goes well, if that's true. And as I read that, I thought, well, what do you mean? If that's true, like, first of all, you could check. If that's true, first of all, you could check. If it's true, that's some highly Google-able shit. But also, I'm a motherfucking AFAM major man. I just told you what the fuck happened. Like I'm not, there's something about.

Speaker 4: 1:33:56

Like, but is AFAM a real major though?

Speaker 3: 1:34:03

Look, boss is like even for me this is too much, too much, it's so, it's so crazy I cannot wait to say if that's true to take, I save the articulate.

Speaker 4: 1:34:16

It's an articulate, uh I I save it whenever I can work it in. Oh, it's so painful. Mean right away. If that's true with coach, you don't even have to go. It does not matter what comes after that comma, because you've already lost.

Speaker 3: 1:34:33

What did you say? What, yeah, yeah, no, so anyway but, I do think it is fascinating.

Speaker 3: 1:34:40

I think the whole scene was fascinating. I think everybody agrees that Nate is in in pain. I mean I don't. I think ted would say that right now. I mean ted's not, you know, if anybody's eq would pick that up, it's his I just what I hear in this conversation is is a yes and of he is in pain, and this is not okay and I do feel like some of the pushback around nate has been like he is in pain, end of analysis. He is in pain and I'm like, well, it can't go that way.

Speaker 4: 1:35:17

It just like it just the world wouldn't work if we just if that's just it wait, explain that if, if, if, it's enough to just be in pain, I'm not. I want to make sure, so I mean so yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 3: 1:35:31

so like I'm not saying that everybody's pain is the same or this or that, but just so-and-so was in pain cannot be a like carte blanche get out of jail free, whatever you want to say, for whatever their behavior is. This was wildly inappropriate on multiple levels, even in a workplace where people do talk about each other's personal lives. Whatever somebody said to me once, do you know whether you're just talking about someone or gossiping based on what you expect to come out of the conversation? And if the conversation is just supposed to create titillation, then it's gossip. If the conversation is supposed to somehow help, then you're having a conversation about someone, but it's not necessarily gossip. And I would say he's doing the interpersonal version of that here.

Speaker 3: 1:36:17

You are a fucking joke is not a thing Ted can work on. He's just like I'm just going to hurl some shit at you best I can. He knows why Ted is there. It's not like he just stared at his kid one day and was like, oh, let me get the fuck out of here. Why did you bring some shit like that up? Like nothing about this is truly fixable, including, I'll tell you right now if Ted went into the locker room after this and said you know, I got to talk to Nate the Great and he made a great point. I abandoned my son, so I'm going home, and everybody was pissed Then Nate would be like. And now you told them it's my fault.

Speaker 4: 1:36:53

It's always some shit. It's a lot of dirty pool. It's a lot of dirty pool for me.

Speaker 2: 1:36:57

The only last thing that I want to say is that idea of because he was hurt, he has sort of carte blanche to do whatever. I think that for such a long time, the way that conversations were structured in US society is the ideal was we're going to be objective, we're not going to have our feelings involved, we're only going to take the facts. It's going to be straight objectivity, and that actually meant whatever straight white cis men had decided was what the feeling should be. Those would be considered objective. That's a good.

Speaker 4: 1:37:32

Anglo-Saxon values Exactly so, like this is why would you show?

Speaker 2: 1:37:35

emotion. If you have emotions that match ours, then those emotions are objective, and that's fine, we don't have emotions.

Speaker 2: 1:37:42

And so now we've gotten to the point where it's all there. Actually, emotions are information. Emotions tell you things about what's going on around you, so I'm not going to ignore that for objectivity, because that is evidence that that's facts. I'm going to include it. My feelings tell me this. My feelings are around. I am telling you what I am feeling so that you know these things about me. Nate is saying my reality is, I feel this way. So that is what is true, and I responded to that. And that isn't correct. Like you don't need to pick between objectivity and feelings that is a false dichotomy but you do need to acknowledge that your feelings are information and not reality, and that is what he is running into.

Speaker 3: 1:38:25

I used to say this more often. You just woke it up so clients can thank you when they get sick of it. No, but I would say to people and started with me talking to myself just because they're your real feelings doesn't mean what you're feeling is real.

Speaker 2: 1:38:41

Yep.

Speaker 3: 1:38:43

Absolutely. I think you got to keep that in mind. You just got to keep that in mind. But yeah, I mean Nate, yeah, you're, you're, you're a hundred percent right, both of you, when you say like Nate's had a whole, he's lived a whole story, he has like this is for months now he's been coloring in oh and this and other than the time. And then you brought a ham sandwich, and you know I like turkey. I mean, he's way down the line at this point.

Speaker 4: 1:39:12

You know what. You know what boss, you know what coach. You're full of shit. Just fuck you both, I mean wow, I mean wow so.

Speaker 2: 1:39:23

I'm going to go.

Speaker 3: 1:39:31

I mean that's fine, it's just that I got other shit to do.

Speaker 1: 1:39:33

Oh yeah, oh no, right, I know he's like you didn't hurt my feelings, you just opened up my evening.

Speaker 3: 1:39:37

No, I'm gonna go to sleep no, but it's.

Speaker 3: 1:39:40

But I I do think the way. Oh, I guess another piece I'd say about it. You know I was saying earlier that Ted just absorbs it, but like even that last piece, like he might feel all kinds of ways, there are two other coaches on this staff and I motherfucking guarantee you he would have figured out what to say other than you're full of shit. Fuck you. Because he would have been afraid for his life. He's saying this shit to Ted because he would have been afraid for his life. He's saying this shit to ted because he can. He knows it, ted knows it, everybody knows it yeah no, and it's fine and that's ted's choice.

Speaker 3: 1:40:16

I mean, ted is being a brand of strong by okay, fine, I'll carry it, but I mean he knows he can get away with this shit. He still has a job. Right now, like at this exact moment, he has a job which we all agree.

Speaker 2: 1:40:30

He should not have, as of the morning that the newspaper article came out.

Speaker 3: 1:40:35

Well, clearly.

Speaker 4: 1:40:42

But certainly this tirade like are we fucking kidding right now?

Speaker 1: 1:40:45

I'm more of a Ted Lasso in this and now. Let's not Now hold on.

Speaker 4: 1:40:47

Hold on this and now, now, now, now now, hold on, hold on, hold on now, hold on folks, hold on, Boss, I really I love your boundaries, I love them, I love them, they're so, they're so attractive. And no, no, and we've talked, we can't we cannot go litigate this.

Speaker 2: 1:41:07

I will only say that what I feel like I'm doing is telling Ted that he has a responsibility to hold his boys accountable, and I think that is the piece that he is missing. We say you have to do this shit. This is a point where he should have been holding Nate accountable and he missed that. He doesn't deserve this shit because his son has nothing to do with this, but he should be called on not holding Nate accountable when he should have been.

Speaker 4: 1:41:30

Yeah, just a bunch of dumb Americans.

Speaker 3: 1:41:36

Even that. Even that is kind of amazing in that, If you remember, it's Buster Douglas, it's the miracle on ice team, it's the Miracle on Ice team, it's Jim Valvano, like I remember watching those go up in the first episode. You know for a fact that Nate has heard each of those stories. That's not just America is great up on the wall and he knows it Right. So he's gonna attack like he's like I hate you and I hate everything you represent, like he is, because they're not. It's not just like a random you know, whatever, I don't know who it would be that you know, just sort of like oh, isn't america, it is specific underdog stories, people who believed, who defied the odds. And he's coming into this hopeless situation Like that. Shit's up on the wall for a reason there's no way Nate hasn't heard about each one.

Speaker 4: 1:42:37

Fuck you, Ted and fuck Jesse.

Speaker 3: 1:42:40

Exactly, exactly. I'm like are you okay Nate Like Jesus.

Speaker 4: 1:42:46

Christ Boss pointed out rightly that he's an animal at bay, you know, and that's when they're super dangerous. But he backed himself into the fucking corner. If he had addressed this at any point, if he had gotten therapy, if he had talked to his old man, if he had done any one of 60 different choices on any given day, this would not have happened. And it's not Ted's fault, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault.

Speaker 3: 1:43:11

Can't get enough of that one. I'm going to go watch that scene.

Speaker 4: 1:43:16

Well, you know what? I'm sufficiently drained from watching this fall from Grace. Let's leave it there today. Coach, where do people find you if they want to find you?

Speaker 3: 1:43:30

I'm doing another shout out for Unstuck as Fuck streaming. Check it out. It's in the show notes and, yeah, we're going to be doing some work around that.

Speaker 4: 1:43:41

Boss, what about you?

Speaker 2: 1:43:42

You can find me at Blue Sky, which is Demily Chambers, or at Threads, which is Emily chambers, or at threads, which is Emily dot chambers, dot 31. Also, hopefully dipping back into the community site, which I have not been around very much lately. I haven't been on any unless you're a spreadsheet. I have not been on you on the computer. That was a weird way of saying it, but I will be back so if you're interested hit up. Hit up the community site.

Speaker 4: 1:44:07

I will be there. I've been a big fan of emilychambers.30 actually.

Speaker 2: 1:44:12

Yeah, she's all right. Superior superior takes she's, she's, she's okay.

Speaker 4: 1:44:20

She's just one ahead of you, boss. So you know what are you going to do.

Speaker 2: 1:44:25

I mean.

Speaker 4: 1:44:26

Depends. It depends. Yeah, no, it depends. Thank you everybody. Thank you for listening. We really appreciate everybody being here with us. I want to do a little shout out to Buttercup Brian, who shared some incredible stuff on the community site. You know Coach references his unstuck AF piece that Coach did and it's amazing. You get this in the nomenclature in your brain and then you have these beats where you know it affects people and it's amazing. Brian shared a great story and we just think the world of him and we're all behind him and think it's just awesome what he's doing. It's, it's, it's. It's just, you know work, just some dumb Americans trying to try to put some goodness into the world.

Speaker 4: 1:45:19

And when little moments like that happen. It just makes it. It's so worth it I can't. It makes it. It's so far past worth it, it's so awesome that's it.

Speaker 4: 1:45:29

So thank you everyone, thank you to all the buttercups, thank you to all the listeners. We know there are so many of you lurking out there. It's I totally get it. Sometimes, just like you know, we're part of your day and we and we technically don't know you exist, um, and so, uh, but you matter to us and I thank you for letting us matter to you. We will be back next time.

Speaker 4: 1:45:50

Our next episode is actually this is going to be super fun. We have Eurovision coming up the first week of May, and so I have asked Coach and Boss to bear with me as I walk through a very special episode on uh on eurovision. Um, it's something they are not familiar with at all, but I really love and I think it suits our audience. I think we're worldly uh in a certain way, and I think, uh, people love, you know, learning about new things. It should be a little bit of a carnival atmosphere, uh, and the format will be slightly different than we normally do, because you'll have to kind of follow along uh not that you don't, but there's a sort of a video component that'll.

Speaker 4: 1:46:34

That'll be a little more informational, um, but that'll be our next, uh, our next episode. Uh, just to just to give you a break from take, take a deep breath from from, uh, from nate's um, uh, just, you know outburst and uh, boss, are you gonna say something?

Speaker 2: 1:46:53

oh, I was just gonna say um uh, self-brought-on implosion yeah no, no right yeah, like like all, all on his own.

Speaker 4: 1:47:02

Um, uh, okay, and that's it for us. Uh, we will see you next time. Please support your local libraries and the written word, and until next time we are.

Speaker 3: 1:47:13

Richmond Till we Die. Brian, I'm shouting you out, man, congratulations.

Speaker 4: 1:47:21

Richmond Till we, Brian. I'm just letting you know. I'm just letting you know.

Speaker 3: 1:47:25

Brian, I'm cutting out my fun moment just for you. That's important.

Speaker 4: 1:47:31

Even the KOB and the QOB never got that kind of shout out. Damn Love it. Thank you everybody. We'll see you next time.