Wayne | Ep 9: Part 1: "Thought We Was Friends"

WAYNE ON YOUTUBE

The Tedcast is a deep dive podcast exploring the masterpieces that are Ted Lasso on Apple TV+ and Wayne on YouTube.

Sponsored by Pajiba and The Antagonist, join Boss Emily Chambers and Coaches Bishop and Castleton as they ruminate on all things AFC Richmond.

Boss Emily Chambers
Coach Bishop
Coach Castleton

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:22

Welcome to our Ted Lasso talk, the Tedcast. Welcome all Greyhound fans, welcome all you sinners from the dog track and all the AFC Richmond fans around the world. It's the Lasso way around these parts with Coach, coach and Boss, without further ado, coach Castleton.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Okay, welcome back, beautiful people, and happy Eurovision Week 2024. If you're hearing this, we're posting on Tuesday and this would be the first day of Eurovision. So if you're hearing this, you might want to just pause wherever you are and just double-check that it's not on right now. Right now, I know in my area out in the east coast of the United States, we have a 2 o'clock time frame to watch it over from Europe, and this year's presentation is coming from I think it's Valmo, which I didn't know. I don't know much about that, but Swedish city, and the first two dates are semifinals on Tuesday and Thursday, and, of course, the grand final is on Saturday, and so I only put that on your radar, just in case. It's one of those things where you say, hey, I'd like to check that out, and you may have missed it, or you may be missing it right now by listening to us, in which case pot will always be here. It's not going anywhere. These things are evergreen, they live in perpetuity, and so, yeah, I urge you to. If you want a little wackiness and some fun and see some of the music from other cultures, I strongly suggest it.

Speaker 2: 2:03

Today we are discussing Wayne. Now we came in last time saying we're going to discuss Wayne and guess what? We didn't really discuss Wayne. Instead, we took a little holiday and we talked a little bit about the man versus bear stuff and some of the things going on in the world. And every once in a while it's good to take stock of where you are. For example, before I jumped on, I saw a post in the community site where someone says I love a pun and I thought this is a hostile workplace environment. That's what I thought. I thought just no one should have to be subjected to puns during their day. I am your host, coach Castleton. With me, as always, is Coach Bishop.

Speaker 3: 2:48

I think the only way to deal with puns in the workplace is with capital punishment.

Speaker 2: 2:53

Yeah, that doesn't help. Does not help at all. Thank you, coach. With us is our boss Emily Chambers.

Speaker 4: 3:04

That sucks help at all. Thank you, coach. Uh, with us is our boss, emily chambers. That sucks. We're just going to be so mean to you because, um, a week or so ago, a while bit, I texted both of you and I said castleton, before we start our next discussion of a wayne episode, yeah, I need you to explain to me why it is that you give love to Maureen, yeah, and not to Calvin or Reggie.

Speaker 2: 3:27

Yeah, and what did I?

Speaker 4: 3:29

say you didn't respond.

Speaker 2: 3:31

Oh good, I'm good at that.

Speaker 4: 3:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that was fine. I just wanted to put it on your radar so that you would be prepared when I came to you with that question.

Speaker 2: 3:39

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 3:39

Because this is going to be a fundamental, not disagreement, but this is the difference between, I think, how you see things and how I see things, and I started to talk about this at the beginning of the last podcast and then we went off to a different journey, so you don't need to address that right now, but that will be a key element for this episode, where we do discuss that, because I need to understand your thinking on that.

Speaker 2: 4:06

Thank you, boss. No, no, I really I know I appreciate that because, um, there's a not, there's a less than zero chance that, like we got off the topic of wayne and just went to any other possible topic just as a delay tactic so I wouldn't have to face the music so I I don't want to say face the music, I think I I will give you chance later to talk.

Speaker 4: 4:25

you don't have to face the music. So I don't want to say face the music, I think I will give you a chance later to talk. You don't need to answer right now. I just want to double check before we head into this conversation. Do you give love to Calvin and Reggie?

Speaker 2: 4:40

Do I give love to Calvin and Reggie, yes, yes you do, I do, I do Okay.

Speaker 4: 4:45

In the same way that you give love to Maureen.

Speaker 2: 4:48

Listen, to be totally honest with you, you hadn't seen what was coming. So I was playing a little tongue in cheek with Maureen. I was just kind of leave. I wasn't saying I think if we get the court stenographer in here you'll see that I was trying to be a little. I was just saying, hey, what you know, this is one way to look at it and you know, we can certainly, whatever I am not, I give love to everyone, as you know.

Speaker 2: 5:13

Sometimes they don't want it and and they return it for for an additional fee, but I, I try to love my fellow man and I try to live by tenets of years and years of Sunday school which I have absorbed, for better or for worse. And so, yes, that is part of what we'll talk about today. But when it comes to Calvin and Reggie, yeah, I have so much to say about that and I will admit that I am jaded, or my opinions on them are shaded, by the fact Francesco Antonio, who plays Reggie, and Kirk Ward, who plays Calvin, and Michaela Watkins, who plays Maureen, are so good, like note perfect, at their jobs that I that I probably go too far to enjoying them and like saying, like seeing them as more real people or that sort of thing, like I really, really love it. I think they're like phenomenal. So, um, there is an element, uh, there also. But yeah, if we're talking about the real life, maureen McNulty, you know we'll have to explore that people can coexist, looking at things from from different points of view.

Speaker 4: 6:36

And you know we have so many of our listeners have been with us for so long, for so long Wait hold on timeout because I'm worried that you were going to maybe take us down a listener thing and before we move too far away from the, we can have different viewpoints. I agree with you. I just I need.

Speaker 4: 7:03

I need to jump in and say I agree with you. I need to jump in and say I agree with you. We can have different viewpoints. However, there is an element to when people say I love everyone. I give everyone love, everybody gets one love, Right Coach.

Speaker 4: 7:18

Yeah, I'm going to be nice to everyone. It scares the shit out of me. It doesn't make me feel comforted or safe or like that as a nice person. I feel like that person doesn't know where the danger is. I've mentioned this before. You don't know where the danger is and you might expose me to it. Yeah, so this I want to put on your radar. I under I. I think you correctly think of yourself as a good, nice person who is kind and wants to be nice to people, but that viewpoint doesn't hit the way it does for everybody, including me, because I think keep Maureen McNulty, the fuck away from me. That bitch is dangerous, no, no.

Speaker 3: 8:03

Listen, I really do get that go ahead coach well, no, I was gonna say, and I think there's even. I think there's an even richer conversation to be had once we get into context, but I think I've shared that. I've worked out my uh definition of so I keep going back to, like that strikes me as a solid definition for me functioning in the world. And if I'm invested in the optimization of outcomes for maureen mcnulty, that does not require her coming anywhere the fuck near me, and I can figure that out as best I can from here. And it may just be me not doing shit to participate in the punishment for the shit you did. That I find, whatever it is, but I don't have to expose myself to Reggie and his crazy to prove that I have love for humanity. So I do think there's like some, what we mean by that I think can help to at least bridge some of the gap that you're both pointing to. Yeah, and I think can help to at least bridge some of the gap that you're both pointing to. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 9:08

And I think, on that note, castleton, I think that there is an element and correct me if I'm wrong I think there is an element that you think these people need help. I'm going to think of them as good people and give them help, or I see the goodness in them and I'm going to respond to that and give them as much help as I can and, specifically because of working in nonprofit, I don't need to think shit about the people I'm helping. That, literally, we try not to ask questions outside of like demographic information. We're not like oh, how did you end up here needing a place to stay or food to eat? We're like you need help. We will help. You might be a horrible person. Your daughter might refuse to speak to you. I will help you out with this.

Speaker 2: 9:54

Yeah, okay, what did I miss? So, yes, that is my inciting call to arms, to say like, yes, inciting action. I say yes, these people probably need help. I will give them the benefit of the doubt generally to start, not always, but generally. I try to be that person. I'm not always that person, I don't think anyone's always that person. I don't think anyone's always that person, but in general, I try to start by giving people enough rope to hang themselves with. You know, so to speak, meaning, you know, I don't think that, for example, is Calvin redeemable? Is he a member of society that who could like actually turn it around? My assumption is he is running a some sort of you know drug operation or something yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:55

Something like that out of his thing. Is he a salvageable? I don't even know what that means in terms of society. Could he be a member of society who is productive? And I probably don't have the same definition of what a good member of society is. So right there, you know that's probably a lot of gray area. You know, I don't like a good tax paying. God fearing individual is not my definition. So right away, you know, I think there's, you know, sort of a role for most people. But yeah, no, it's tough. I would like to think that somewhere along the line he probably was salvageable. But as we get into it we might see where those glimmers come from. Like, I think Reggie's probably more salvageable than Calvin. But you know, we can definitely talk about it as we go.

Speaker 4: 11:45

Yeah, because what's really interesting to me is I think any person is redeemable, anybody, regardless of how horrible of a person. You are Right, you can make up for that and do good moving forward.

Speaker 4: 11:59

I think you and I have different definitions and I know that you said that you were doing a lot of the tongue in cheek morning stuff tongue in cheek and stuff tongue, yeah, yeah yeah, I, I, I think, though, that you have especially I know that in um one of the last episodes we were talking about the insult incel community and you were seeing like they need help and they, I, I think a percentage a percentage of a percentage, not not all of them.

Speaker 2: 12:20

No, no god. But if you're gonna hurt women, women or you think you're entitled to whatever, it's disgusting. Well, I mean, that's it's repellent, but the certain clueless lost 20% or whatever might be able to be reached.

Speaker 4: 12:33

Yes, so I think that there is an element where you know you said a little bit ago that the actors are so good at performing these roles that you sort of like the characters a little bit more and that you're liking them sort of makes you think better of them. Then what I think is same as I said in the last conversation, I can love you and know that you're a horrible person and I think you. It gets a little more confused.

Speaker 2: 12:58

Well here, well confused for you probably, but but here's the uh, here's the thing I, I, I have learned over uh many years of working with you Um, uh, you have taught me to have certain boundaries, so I don't, uh, I don't aspire to have your take on things. If that makes sense, I think.

Speaker 2: 13:18

I think it takes all kinds and I think that you look at something and you say you know that's like I don't think everyone's redeemable. There are certain people where I go no, you're done. Like you've done this, that means you're done and I probably have a too hard of a line in that in that way. But yeah, no, I, I appreciate where you come from and I appreciate that you know you see the world in a certain way and I think it's. It has helped me in so many different ways to sort of put things in perspective or understand other people, but I would never aspire to it. It doesn't seem like a way I would want to go about things, so I guess so I'm going to toss this in and then I want to be a cause.

Speaker 3: 13:57

Now I feel like maybe I'm a little less clear coach, so I want to make sure. Clear coach, so I want to make sure. So I'll. I'll use an example, um, that I noticed in my own life so not proud of it, um, but I realized that I did have this is some years back, but I did. I did have, um, a certain bias in terms of people who are fat, and I started I did some jokes about it at one point, because I was just sort of like working through, like what the fuck is that about? Right, and I noticed and I mean this in a specific way that I didn't have any fat friends. Here's why Because anybody who was overweight in my circle was a fat. They were so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so.

Speaker 3: 14:48

The only motherfuckers who got on my nerves and made me want to cuss them out were fat motherfucking blah, blah, blah, tubby blah blahs Everybody in my circle. Well, I mean, we're getting older, we're getting older, and so I think some of what Boss is pointing to is that element of the conversation that when it's somebody I love or care about or somehow, for one reason or another, have a sympathy toward, now all of a sudden you got to understand and people have problems and they grow up differently. I'm sure there's a bunch of lost boys who needed a hug from their dad. I don't give a fuck. I'd beat the shit out of them and their dad. If I could do it without getting in trouble, I don't give a fuck.

Speaker 3: 15:40

But now if you tell me somebody, I give a fuck. Oh, you had trouble with your father. Oh, my, my goodness. Well, here's a number for a therapist. Oh my God. And anytime you need to talk, I totally understand. So I just I think cleaner than we actually do and I felt so I say all that to say I felt some of that in your comment about liking the actors.

Speaker 2: 16:13

No, no, what you're getting is once they're humanized. So when you get their humanity, when you see the actors doing such a good job at showing them as people that they're not these caricatures anymore, they're not just like oh meth dealer one, you know what I mean. You're like oh man, I see everything about this person. So that might be shading my analysis of them. I've said, if you remember, it's such a weird thing and I should probably do some deep thinking about where the lines are. But do you remember the thing I saw of the guy? It like on tiktok or somewhere, some social media, where the dude went to whole foods and was drinking out of the ladle, out of the soup yeah, we talked about that.

Speaker 3: 16:55

You and I talked about that. I don't think you talked about it on here that is terrifying for me.

Speaker 2: 16:59

Oh my god, because that puts me in prison. When I see that, the rage I get at that guy doing it, and this happened to me the other day. So I want to set the scene properly. There's a left-hand turn on the way to taking my daughter to school, where it's basically you get a left arrow. You know what I mean. So cars go and they turn and then generally two cars are sort of left in the middle of the intersection and by the time it turns red, those two cars are sort of left in the middle of the intersection and, um, by the time turns red, those two cars go right.

Speaker 2: 17:28

I something happened that I've never seen before in my life, which was it's two days ago. I have a like a ford f-150 because of course it's a ford f-150 behind me, um, and we wait and we wait and then the, the last, uh, cars come, it turns, it turns left. Do you know what's going to happen, coach? We go to take the turn and the guy turns through the opposite lane, like in the intersection, and goes in front of me and cuts me off. I've never seen it. All my life I've been driving, I've never seen that. So I, I lean on my horn, I'm just holding my horn and my daughter's in the backseat. She's like Dad, don't get mad, or whatever. And I was like she doesn't like whatever. And so I was like, all right, I have a little girl in the car or whatever. But if I didn't have a little girl in the car, I'm telling you someone that gets away with that and there's no penalty for it.

Speaker 2: 18:20

This is why I talk about social control, control in hockey. It's because the gray areas are always penalized. You know, yes, you have your rules, you have. Oh, the ref saw it. But if the ref didn't see it, there's still a mechanism for that guy to pay the right price. And so this guy, I'm like who? And there was somebody in the car with him. It was like I was looking and it's just like two, they didn't give me the finger, they didn't do it, they just did it like matter of fact, like nope, this is what I'm going to do, I'm just going to decide. And they just kept. I was like what is happening right now? I've literally have you guys ever had that happen to you in a?

Speaker 3: 18:53

I don't know that specific move, but certainly comparable moves, that you just go holy shit man Like wow yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:09

But I hear you. I guess my question is and so that type of thing. I am making a judgment call on that Coach where I say, like if you're able to do that, like I can't even fathom, like what you would do. I just I'm like you do not the normal rules, don't? You don't think they apply to you. So someone has to show you that they apply to you. And in a different version of myself I would show them in probably a way that would get me into trouble. So I'm saying it's not like, as I'm in the intersection, I go, the guy behind me is fine, no problem with the guy behind me. As soon as they do that, I go, you have identified yourself and I don't need to know anything else. I don't care, the guy could be a local reverend, I don't need to know anything else, I don't care, the guy could be a local reverend, I don't, I don't care, you cannot do that.

Speaker 2: 19:50

We all have to have. We live in a civilized society. There are rules we've all agreed on and, yes, are some of the rules of the road stupid? Yeah, some of the some of the rules are designed for the lowest common denominator and and they're ridiculous, like you know 15 mile an hour, speed limits and things.

Speaker 2: 20:05

I'm like what the hell is it? You know every, you know whatever, but in certain, in certain places, like just you cannot drive across the intersection to cut someone off for no reason you know, risking an accident and going the other way. I'm just like, no, you like at least I need to understand it. I would have pulled up and be like explain what you just did, make me understand, because you cannot do that. So anyway, that's. I don't. I know boss sometimes thinks I go into the world and just like a babe in the woods, like oh, everybody's my friend, I'll never, whatever. It's not like that. It's just that I give them the benefit of the doubt to begin with and then you know, just show me who you are and everybody always does.

Speaker 4: 20:46

What did that guy show you? Why did you tell?

Speaker 2: 20:48

us that story Because I gave before I knew. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Once he showed me who he was, I'm like, okay, you have. No, you have put yourself above everybody else. It's not just me. It's like we have a society. You're putting yourself above the rules of society and now I know what you're about.

Speaker 4: 21:06

Sorry, but the question that you were answering was that Bishop coach asked you about how it, once somebody is humanized for you, you have more sympathy for them, and I think what you told us was an example of where you gave somebody sympathy to begin with, you gave somebody the benefit of the doubt and then you took it away. Somebody sympathy to begin with, you gave somebody the benefit of the doubt and then you took it away. But we're talking about the opposite, in that if you like somebody, it sometimes seems like you are less judgmental to them and their actions.

Speaker 2: 21:32

Those are your words. Those are your words.

Speaker 4: 21:34

Those are not my words.

Speaker 2: 21:35

I never said if I like somebody, I am less judgmental.

Speaker 4: 21:37

No, no no, no, no. But what coach and I both said is that we noticed in the conversation that it felt like that is what you were doing, and so we were asking you about that.

Speaker 2: 21:46

Yeah, that's when I said the humanity thing. Listen, you and coach, teaming up against me is nothing. That doesn't bother me a bit.

Speaker 4: 21:56

So one thing I should mention is that earlier in the conversation you said that you respect the boundaries and the things that I brought in my viewpoint, and everything.

Speaker 2: 22:04

Oh yeah.

Speaker 4: 22:04

And thank you very much. I love that. I also you mentioned that you wouldn't want to see things the way that I do. I'm not arguing that you should do that. I am, Jen, like very seriously trying to get an idea of what your ethical framework looks like. Yeah, so that I know where your edges are at and what your rules are and how you Absolutely so, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 22:27

I'm saying I need to do some deep diving. And why does the guy at Whole Foods I talked to I talked to yeah, I guess we didn't do it on the show, but I talked to coach about this. I'm like, why is that? Like the thing for me, like that the root and coach is like oh, you care, care about social, but you care about boundaries, about these certain but like the certain boundaries. Like I guess it's when people take care of advantage of other people, or the, or the agreed upon rule set that I get frustrated or something well.

Speaker 3: 22:55

Well, there there's a couple things, and I actually do think I'm not saying this because we just had a very special episode, but I actually do think there's some stuff in the episode that's going to take us to some of these things in an interesting way. But I'll toss in that I have a story similar to Coach's, and it wasn't a video. I was there, I was in college, and you had all kinds of setups or whatever. You could pick up your main lunch, but outside of there, there, like a salad bar and some soup, um, in a you know big pot, whatever, and you'd go and get your soup. So this guy, who was? You just saw him around campus. He was, he was. He was an odd bird, um, to be sure. And you know, whatever, I'm good, fuck, he's over there, I'm over here, and it'd be odd if you. What the fuck you want to do? What you cannot do, is walk up to that big-ass pot of soup that we all gonna eat from and start to put that ladle to your mouth, because what'll happen then?

Speaker 3: 23:52

is some crazy motherfucker from Brooklyn will yell across Yale's Commons, hey, and everyone will freeze in all of Commons. And he will then yell Don't you put that in your motherfucking mouth?

Speaker 3: 24:07

and so and he would be right too, and he would be, that's exactly what happened and he put it down because, as I said to my friends after he put it down, he could walk around here acting crazy if he was he ain't that goddamn crazy. And I was like, if he put that in his mouth, he about to catch one for me, because that is fucking outrageous. But but I, I tell the story why? Because it makes you laugh. But also I tell the story in this case because I think they're different way. Like my reaction was I don't really give a fuck if you're a good person, are you're a bad person or there's something wrong with you or you don't understand. I don't give a fuck. Here's what I do. Give a fuck about You're not putting that ladle in your mouth. That's nasty and I'm not here for that.

Speaker 3: 24:55

I think, coach, in the way and I mean that for that specific story I get the sense, coach, like when that guy cut you off in the intersection, that you thought one we can't have, that we cannot have, that You're going to kill somebody or you're going to certainly ruin some cars, like we can't have it. Okay, that's one level. I think another level is you decided and because you did, this thing we can't have, I now know that you are a certain kind of person and my interactions with you from here will reflect that, and I think it doesn't necessarily conflict with I give him love, but I think it could conflict with it, or I think certainly it requires some resolution and and working to make sure that we've got all that. Working together does that make sense.

Speaker 2: 25:49

I love what you said. I love the breakdown, actually the weird part about it. When he did that I wasn't worried about him cutting me off at all. It didn't like that. The personal interaction like uh, of him, me, whatever it was, just like it was so flagrant he cut across.

Speaker 2: 26:05

You know the people that would be cut yeah like he cut across people that luckily there was nobody in line over there, that's why he was able to do it. But he cut across like lanes of traffic and then just and casually did it like the fact there was no, he didn't wave and say sorry, he didn't go. Fuck you, haha, there was nothing like that. It was this casual. I I'll just, I'll break this cardinal rule that in half century of driving I've never seen anybody break. I just go, wait, wait a second, like. So you want to talk about danger? I go oh, yes, I have.

Speaker 2: 26:35

I gave him love before that. I give everybody on the road love until they show me they're a terrible driver. Then I see the danger and I go all right, now I have to treat you in a different way. Now I understand that you are dangerous to me. So maybe it's not all that different between the way boss and I view these things.

Speaker 2: 26:55

Maybe it's just you know semantics, we, I don't know, because I, because boss, you're, you're, you're saying, hey, listen, you know, actually I don't want to put words in your mouth. I just, I just think at some, at some point, we both get to a place where we've made some value assessment and then reacted accordingly, so so. So when you give somebody love, whatever part of it is like oh, that's a that, maybe it's just like an extra attempt, you know, maybe that's all it is. It's like all right, my gut says I'm going to lose this money, but I'm going to give him this whatever and I'll give it to him. And you might say I know well enough to not give that person money. I don't know what the range is.

Speaker 4: 27:39

So the only thing I want to say and then I do think we should get into the episode is that I, honest to God, I just want to know what your rules are, and that's because it's a me thing. I do so poorly with ambiguity. It makes me fucking crazy. I want to know what I'm supposed to do and how I'm supposed to do it and how.

Speaker 4: 27:57

I proved to you that I got it done and that makes me comfortable and feel good. So, literally like I want to figure that out with you. The only other thing is that I want to discuss, as we move through this episode, the ways in which I feel like not just you people in general this is, this is a societal thing that bothers me. In general, people say I, I know him, he is a good guy, this thing that he did is not as bad as it seems to other people and I'm like it kind of seems like what he did was bad. It kind of seems like the act itself, outside of who he is, is bad, and so I'm going to judge the act and say that act was shitty.

Speaker 4: 28:43

And if you want to talk about how, like, oh well, he had a really terrible week and that's why he cut that guy off and ordinarily he's not like that and we don't need to worry about him doing it in the future because we took away his driver's license or whatever the fuck he did, like, when you say this is how I can prevent the act, I understand that. When you say the act shouldn't happen because it hasn't happened in the past, I get that. But when you say the act shouldn't happen because it hasn't happened in the past, I get that. But when you say, oh well, he's a really nice guy, so when he punched that dude in the face he was doing it out of love, I'm like, well, no, no, that that's not going to fly.

Speaker 2: 29:12

That's yeah, no, these are. These are really. I love this boss. These are really good. These are really complicated issues and first of all, I'll tell you that I really appreciate how well you um, how, how you weigh actions. I really like that because it's like a very definitive methodology of being like I don't give a shit what you say. Show me what you did and then I'll know.

Speaker 4: 29:33

I really like that because, I can't handle ambiguity, well, that's yeah but but it makes perfect sense.

Speaker 2: 29:39

Yeah, I think there's a clarity. Yeah, I will say as someone who does not, uh uh, suffer from adhd you asking me what my rules are is fascinating, because I don't know. And I would say that and coach, you can jump in this anytime there's a tremendous amount of shame associated with ADHD, because we will get questions like that and we don't always know. And I have the sense that my rules have shifted like drastically over the course of my life, based on who I am and what I want and what I understand about the world and who I want to be and that sort of thing, and like the things I've learned about myself and the things I've learned about society. So I think my rules have shifted and that may or may not be a good thing, but it's.

Speaker 4: 30:25

I think it's a great thing. I think that is how people grow. That is a sign of maturity. Your rules should change. You should not have the same rules when you're seven as you do when you're 47, then you fucked up.

Speaker 2: 30:36

Right, but it's hard for me to like, even when we talk about the um, the mitigating circumstances is interesting and the way, way like, uh, you know I've told you that, uh, me and there's one, one of a friend of mine, are like I'm not saying virtually unprovocable, but it's, it's pretty, it's pretty tough and um, so I think it's cause I can always tell myself a story about mitigating circumstances and I always can like try to look from the other person's point of view and give them that extra benefit of the doubt.

Speaker 2: 31:07

And I'm not sure that's a great thing, honest to God, like I'm really not sure in the course of my life that me going the extra mile and extending myself, I think it has given me among my peer group and among my friends and among my coworkers. It's given me a reputation as a very level-headed sort of leader or calm. You know I don't jump, I don't sort of fly into things, but again I would say I'm telling you that the best person I know is Coach Bishop. Coach Bishop is the best man I know. Okay, he is a fucking like, he is a stuffy, he's a stuffed animal. Is he is a fucking like he is a stuffy, he's a stuffed animal Like he is so sweet.

Speaker 4: 31:50

I did just spit up water.

Speaker 2: 31:53

He is so sweet. Okay, I promise you he is so sweet, he he is. I just want to carry him around. I love him so much. Whenever I'm with him, I'm happy. Whenever I talk to him I'm happy. Whenever I associate with him, i'm'm happy. But I have seen coach bishop. I've seen him be something else. That is every bit, if not more, coach bishop than the stuffy that I'm talking about, and that is terrible. He is terrifying, he is dangerous, he is, um, I going to say unreasonable, but he gets to a point I can be unreasonable when I go.

Speaker 3: 32:30

Once I get there, once I'm like all right, I'm out of fucks. Yeah, I definitely can be unreasonable.

Speaker 2: 32:35

There's very few of us that can get through to him with the right words at the right time when he's there, to bring him back to anywhere near what what his, his baseline is. So, and that's because he is probably better at his rules than I am, like he, he has. He has had to probably deal with people broaching his rules by virtue of his upbringing, by virtue of his situation. Then I have, I've had the fucking luxury, the privilege of calmness and you know the choice about whether or not I'm going to get provoked by something. So, again, it's a lot of work that I have to do and maybe we'll figure out where some of those are. But I do, boss, I deeply respect your take on these things and again, I can't. It's very hard. It's very hard Sometimes when you say, shit, I, I'm like, I, I just do not, it like does not compute in a like very basic ones and zeros kind of way. But I love it and I admire it and I think it's it works for you. So it's, it's great, it's really remarkable.

Speaker 3: 33:36

It's interesting, as you said, really several really interesting things. That one that I'll point out as we go into this, that because I've been thinking about the piece with rules and I think that is often now that you've said that I'm like going back. I'm like I think that's often when boss and I most line up, when it's most clearly like boss and coach Bishop think this and coach Castleton thinks a different thing. It's usually like okay, that was a rule. Like we got to have some fucking rules here and that was the rule. That was a rule. Like we got to have some fucking rules here and that was the rule, and I think it's. I do. I, in a funny way, I've gone in opposite direction, I think, in some ways as you coach, with some of the same challenges, in that I really think about rules a lot. I really think about and I don't just mean rules as like you can do this or you can't do that, but like this works this way, this works that way. And I got I've number of times I've told daphne like she'll tell me a whole legal thing that's going on and I'll be like, actually I'll tell you an example I can share. So some of you some of you would know about. You know, we had our dog was killed by a neighbor's dog. It was horrible, okay. So they were ridiculous. And so Daphne sued them.

Speaker 3: 34:47

And, um, at one point for one of the hearings, daphne calls me and she's like can you believe? You know this woman. She didn't say woman, but that. But I wouldn't incriminate her here, but can you believe this woman? She came, she came, you know, and asked me if she could sit on the bench, neck, you know that I was sitting on and I said, oh, that's great, we won, oh. And she was like what are you talking? I was like, oh, it's oh. I was like the whole thing's over. I was like it's over now. Yeah, I was like she asked you if she could sit on a public and to daphne, she was like what are you talking? I was like it is over, like you won. Now you just tell her what she's got to do to make you go away.

Speaker 3: 35:28

And Daphne couldn't really appreciate her process and I was like don't you understand? Like it's time to chill with champagne, it's over. And it's because I have had to be in positions where I have to figure out very quickly who's in conflict, who's up, who's got the power here, who's down? So I do have rules. I watch, and anytime somebody asks for permission from somebody else, that's the power dynamic. Now my mother never said hey, orlando, can I go to the supermarket? Now, you know why? Because she was the fucking mom and I was the fucking kid. I ask. She doesn't ask. Once you ask, you're there Now. Daphne had no reason to have spent any time with that, thinking. Daphne was living in her house with her family, her grandmother, cooking food after school. She had to figure all that shit out on the way home. She just went the fuck home and had her snack.

Speaker 3: 36:19

So I think like I, so I've spent a lot of time on rules. A. So I think like I, so I've spent a lot of time on rules, a lot of time. And and one thing I will share about what you said about you know when I go to that cause I can he.

Speaker 2: 36:42

One particular instance was a friend, a mutual friend of ours at the time, had been having some marital issues and as a friend, you guys won't, you won't, you won't believe this.

Speaker 3: 36:48

Like like this is a real thing. I won't tell the details. This was really horrible, I thought. Anyway, so, as a friend, as he's sharing what's happened to him, I'm like well, you know my marriage, I've had this trouble. Blah, blah, blah, you could try this. He gets bad about like some fantasy football conflict, like literally like should we draft at this time, or that? I don't even remember what the thing was and he put like the core of all the marital shit I had told him on our fantasy football board yeah, and my coach is that exactly what fucking exactly exactly what happened.

Speaker 3: 37:24

When I tell you my temperature went to a thousand.

Speaker 2: 37:27

He was walking to his car he was walking to his car to go hunt him down and take care of him, and I had to talk cause like whoa, whoa, hold on it. Like does he have it coming?

Speaker 3: 37:38

yes, yes, like coach, literally was like orlando, please do not kill him, like I was, like I, if I, if I lay hands on him, I'm telling you somebody better come save him.

Speaker 2: 37:51

He gonna die holy fuck yeah, listen boss, you got to appreciate this because I had made a value judgment about that guy and I knew he was a total piece of crap and I would never have told him my thing. So see, you see that I mean I learned I, yeah, yeah, right listen I don't do it yeah I, I don't.

Speaker 4: 38:11

I don't want you to be meaner, I'm not trying to toughen you up. I'm not saying like, hey, get out here and, uh, bring your shift. Nothing like that. I, I love the sweetness, I just need to know what shape it takes.

Speaker 2: 38:23

I don't think you believe the sweet, how you don't like good nice boys, you don't. You always say, like Matt Damon, nice boy, bullshit. I don't think you buy it.

Speaker 1: 38:31

I think you think we all have a deep, dark secret. No, no, no, no, no, no, and we're all like you know a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Speaker 3: 38:38

I want to hear.

Speaker 4: 38:40

I think that you are misunderstanding what I have said about quote, unquote. Nice guys.

Speaker 2: 38:45

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 38:45

And what I get nervous about is when people in general I use the term nice guys, and nice guys are easy to point out but when people believe themselves to be most often good and I don't want you to have terrible self-esteem, I don't want you to think I'm a piece of shit and I can't do anything right but when you believe yourself to be mostly on the right side or to mostly have ripped views or any other list of things, it becomes difficult to point out to those people hey, you fucked this thing up, this individual thing that I think you fucked you. Matt Damon said diversity is in front of the camera, not behind it, and people are like hey, matt damon, no, you're wrong about that. And he's like wait, but I'm not racist, I, I, I love diversity, I want and then.

Speaker 2: 39:34

And then he said I fucked, I'm so sorry. You're right, I learned a lot from this.

Speaker 1: 39:38

I've come but it took time and changed his rules well, that's it.

Speaker 4: 39:41

But what I'm saying is that there are some people out there that you're like, hey, you fucked this up. And they're like shit, I fucked up again. How did I fuck this up? Tell me what I need to do Like. What I want is for people to understand that their actions are representative of who they are, but you cannot have a core ideology that says what I am is a good person, because then you have a much harder time acknowledging when you screw up and how to fix that I want you to feel good about yourself.

Speaker 2: 40:08

No, no, no, no, that's good. I do not have that core ideology, so that's really nice. The nice guy stuff is is all well and good. I've never.

Speaker 2: 40:16

One of the reasons I think that I I'm about to explode over the, over the soup tureen in Whole Foods and then a guy cutting across lanes of traffic to cut it, is because it is so. I know my position on those. It is obvious, whereas all the other ones I'm always like I see everybody's point of view. It's like Rashomon in my head and I'm like I see everything. I don't know where to think.

Speaker 2: 40:38

I certainly don't think I'm the arbiter of what's right or wrong, and so maybe that's where a lot of the inaction comes from, because I just go fuck, I got to really think about this, like you know and it's. And it gets in that moment where most people would get heated because they have a baseline rule or they have like a thing where they say I'm the law or my way is that whatever. I don't have any of that. I feel like I'm a, I feel like jello in that situation, you know what I mean. I don't think like, oh, I'm, I know the one thing I can hang my hat on is I'm the good guy in this situation.

Speaker 2: 41:12

I have never thought that, ever, ever. It's just not part of my. Maybe it's being raised by a European parent who beats on you or whatever, but I always thought most things are my fault, you know like. So you don't know if that makes any sense, like it's just a child of abuse and things I just usually generally go. I probably fucked this up.

Speaker 2: 41:28

And then, with the ADHD on top of it, I go, okay, I know myself well enough to know I I probably didn't even hear what they did. They say this or what you know, like it's. It's that basic where you're like you just assume you don't have all the information and then maybe it is, maybe it is a bit I don't want to say emasculating, but maybe it is. Maybe it does steal some of my what would be thunder if I had a better sort of overlay of rules that I was operating from, I guess.

Speaker 4: 41:59

So, number one I love everything you just said. Number two I think one of the things is when you say to somebody you fucked this thing up and they hear I think you're a bad person that have pissed you off or hurt you or whatever else. Because when I say, hey, you missed my birthday and that hurt my feelings, they hear I think you're a horrible person and you should go to hell. And that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say you missed my birthday and you hurt my feelings. So I think that you, having that sort of distance between those things, is you are feeling this animosity I have towards that thing, and that's not your sweetness. That is a different thing. But what I really like what you just said is. So I'm actually going to try to drag us into this episode right now.

Speaker 4: 42:56

I think what you and I both respond to about Wayne is that he has a code and we understand what his code is and we understand why he does what he does. And while we might think, hey, you didn't need to hit that guy in the face with a trumpet, we understand why he did it and so he is predictable and I often agree with him. It is actually like the predictability for me is one of the biggest things. If I know how you're going to react, I know why you're doing it. Me is one of the biggest things If I know how you're going to react, I know why you're doing it. I am even if I disagree with it, I'm more able to accept it Because I know that you have a reasoning behind it and that makes a lot of sense to me.

Speaker 2: 43:33

Yeah, no, that makes sense. I certainly understand that perspective.

Speaker 4: 43:36

Yeah, and so now we're going to watch Wayne or not Wayne the episode, I should say not Wayne himself, Just I should say not Wayne himself, Just outrageous levels of violence in this one.

Speaker 2: 43:50

In a way that I enjoyed a lot. This is so, so, so interesting. This is where I thought you were going to whoop me on this one. We open up with a person we don't know running Looks like a teenager of some kind. I will say once again, sean Simmons, creator of Wayne, has definitely grown up without shit, because this is what a shitty neighborhood looks like. It is so wonderful if you actually have been without to know that people still there are people in Hollywood who still have come from places where people are poor, actually poor, not tv poor like. Oh, tv poor is friends or you know you're like, oh, they've got to share an apartment.

Speaker 2: 44:33

Oh right, yeah, you know, shameless does it the best. Uh, we always say they really really get it, um and uh, but this is a really poor neighborhood. Um, can I go.

Speaker 3: 44:46

I want to toss this in as we're going into this scene and and especially because I remember episode one, I immediately went oh my god, it's a western. And as this episode started I said, oh my god, it's a horror movie. Yeah, running falling, yeah, the unseen threat, the you know the odd angles, that very low angle at the shirt as the character runs up into the house, which looks? The house looks familiar, the house looks familiar to me. I wasn't necessarily automatically like I know where that is, but I feel I was like, I feel like I've seen that house before, um, so anyway, I thought I think that's, I think that's relevant to this episode, but I also think that house before um, so anyway, I thought I think that's, I think that's relevant to this episode.

Speaker 3: 45:27

But I also think that something that has been done throughout wayne, as I think about it more and more, I think there's been like almost romantic comedy ish, kind of treatment in certain places. There's been a lot of playing with the genre and elements of the genres and then just laying this like waneness over the top of it all. That, I think, deserves some attention. It's like a level of playing with the filmmaking. I think it's pretty sophisticated.

Speaker 4: 45:55

Yes, that, exactly Playing with the filmmaking I love.

Speaker 2: 46:00

Absolutely, absolutely correct. And once the guy disappears into the house and we do have that horror movie sort of vibe we get an insert of a lawn dwarf like a lawn gnome hanging, like hung around his neck by a chain, around his neck by a chain. And it's funny because this show does an incredible job of turning general tropes on their ear, because the concept of for those who we haven't mentioned it before, I know we've mentioned it but I'll repeat it Chekhov's gun is a narrative principle of storytelling where you introduce an element, something you know, a gun, whatever theoretically unimportant, and you bury the lead and then that implement will take on greater significance. You see this all the time.

Speaker 2: 47:02

The one I always think about is Jack Ryan in Patriot Games swings an anchor at Sean Bean. They're fighting in the big final battle and it's one of those anchors with the sharp kind of points on it and he misses and it gets wedged in the boat that they're fighting on and he pulls it and he can't dislodge it. But the next shot is an insert of the points sticking up and you're like, okay, I know what that is it's always this, so there it is.

Speaker 2: 47:27

Now this one. I saw this first in Wayne. I said, oh, this is like a. They call this an extreme close-up ECU. It is. Everything else is blurred out and you just see this gnome and I thought, oh, they're establishing. This is like a horror vibe, this is like a sadism or some some. Anyone that would hang a lawn gnome with a chain, an actual chain around his neck, uh, like a noose is, uh, this is a twist. We're in twisted motherfucker territory. Um, boss, will you uh walk us through? Uh, continuing on this?

Speaker 4: 48:04

yeah, so it's's the closeup on the gnome who, uh, doesn't look happy. It actually looks kind of pleased. He's fine with himself. Uh, the stranger bolts to the front door, locks it, chains it, looks out the window, walks into the obviously poor house. Very well done on that.

Speaker 2: 48:23

Like tenement level yeah.

Speaker 4: 48:24

Yeah, it's not, it's not good. So he's fidgeting. He goes and he makes himself some canned ravioli and then pumps himself up by screaming about how it's his fucking house and punching the air and you can't get in here, and there's a knock at the door.

Speaker 2: 48:39

He's got a knife in his hand, so he's like. He's like miming stabbing with the knife, but he turned the stove up so high that the ravioli is like burning right away, which is like there's just like right well you gotta you, you gotta scorch it in order to get rid of the metallic taste.

Speaker 4: 48:57

Like we, we actually ate pretty well when I was a kid, for being pretty poor, my my mom did a good job on that. But there was a couple of times where I had some, some canned green beans and canned ravioli. That was actually at my friend's dad's sad divorce dad apartment. That probably wasn't the best example, but it tastes bad. It's not good, it doesn't. There are a few things from my childhood where I'm like actually, let me tell you something Budding lunch meat, I will. Childhood where I'm like, actually, let me tell you something budding lunch meat, I will get done on that. It does, I am into it, it's fine.

Speaker 2: 49:29

Canned ravioli is not one, just yeah, not not a fan of the the beefaroni, uh, okay, so meat shouldn't be in a can.

Speaker 3: 49:37

Meat should not be in a can now see, speaking of rules, I mean that's one worth discussing. Okay, I discussing. I can't come up with the scenario where I'd prefer my meat being in a can. I can say that? So we're on our way.

Speaker 2: 49:50

Tuna can work. I've eaten some pretty damn average corned beef hash out of a can, not gonna lie.

Speaker 4: 49:58

I prefer it homemade.

Speaker 3: 50:00

That's such a perfectly stated.

Speaker 2: 50:04

Sometimes you get a mood for average carby. It's the only place you can get carby fast sometimes.

Speaker 3: 50:08

Listen, you're talking to a guy who keeps a box or two of stovetop stuffing on deck. Sometimes that's just the brand of mediocrity. I need in my deck.

Speaker 4: 50:18

No, I get that. I do understand that. Any kind of box of noodles Like an angel hair, yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:28

Dustin Rolls, producer Dustin Rolls of this podcast and the founder of Pajiba, eats canned bread, and he suffers every time. Oh, he is, I don't know, I mean, you talk about getting dragged. Everybody on his staff From the beginning of time, has tormented this poor man About his love of canned bread and Until this, moment I am 50.

Speaker 2: 50:58

I will be 52 this summer and until this moment I didn't even know that existed yeah, like and if, and if you reach out to him with a text to ask him about it, he will be like oh for fuck, really like. Who told this? Again? You know it's like yeah, you're googling canned bread, yeah I am right now.

Speaker 2: 51:19

It is mental because I'm like what is happening? Yeah, yeah, Wow, it's not. I mean worse he he actually made me some and he was like Castleton has some white trash, Just try this. And I tasted it. I had a little butter on it. I was like it's fine, Like I totally get it.

Speaker 4: 51:34

It was not, it was, you know, gross, but I get it Sometimes people grow up with that and you know technically edible, it's like think of it as bread bread it's got a weird sponginess to it. It's kind of cake-ish, it's not bread.

Speaker 2: 51:59

It's brown bread.

Speaker 4: 52:00

Yes, there's no crunchy edge of it, if you're imagining anything like that?

Speaker 2: 52:03

no, no, there's no edge. Edge of it. If you're imagining anything like that, no, oh, I see. No, there's no edge at all. Yes, the edge would be like putty or something, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 4: 52:11

Yeah, I would also like to mention on the trip where I had to try the brown bread, brown canned bread. He also ordered mashed potato pizza and I was like, why would you hurt me? It was two of the things I love so much. It wasn't good, it didn't taste good. Some people loved it.

Speaker 2: 52:34

It was not for me there was also French vanilla beer.

Speaker 3: 52:36

I'm only going to take this further off the rails, so I'm going to French vanilla beer coach.

Speaker 4: 52:40

Yeah banana bread, beer Somebody had that, oh dear, what is happening? We didn't care about our insights before pandemic turns out.

Speaker 2: 52:49

Yeah. So this young gentleman, keep going, boss, he is miming.

Speaker 4: 52:55

Miming that he's going to stab people because he's super tough.

Speaker 4: 52:57

He's doing his karate Knock on the door and he says Dad, probably, not, probably, your dad isn't knocking on the door, probably, but he was hoping. So he walks over and he checks through the peephole and we get a wide shot of him looking through the door and then, very slowly, in the horror genre, a hand coming up behind his head, grabbing him, slamming it into the door two, three times and then just beating the shit out of him up against the walls, throwing him into the other room, wrapping a rope around his neck and punching him in the face several times, and then grabbing the pan of screaming hot ravioli and dumping it over his head before hitting him in the face with said pan and presumably knocking him out. Mostly not all the way, actually. He kind of gets up and crawls around on the floor. He's shouting please. And then we see the garden gnome drop on the chain into frame.

Speaker 2: 53:58

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 53:59

Before being whipped around.

Speaker 2: 54:02

Like a morning star.

Speaker 4: 54:04

Like a crusstar, like a.

Speaker 2: 54:05

Like a Like, a Like, a Like.

Speaker 4: 54:07

Mel Gibson sucks shit and he is one of the worst people he might be, somebody I would consider irredeemable, but in Braveheart, when he marches his fucking horse into the guy's bedroom, drops it, swings it around, smashes the shit out of his head, sort of in that vein.

Speaker 2: 54:26

I forget. I always get Morningstar and Flail confused. The one with the chain Is the Morningstar. Is the Morningstar? Okay, yeah, and then the Flail is just like a.

Speaker 4: 54:34

I gotta break up with my boyfriend. I just realized I know way too much about medieval weaponry and it's all entirely his fault.

Speaker 3: 54:42

I really love how that moment came together for us.

Speaker 4: 54:46

All right.

Speaker 3: 54:46

Well, there it is.

Speaker 4: 54:48

He's the reason. I know the difference between a catapult and trebuchet, but I don't know my best friend's birthday. I can't keep that knowledge in my head, fucker.

Speaker 2: 55:01

One of the things that was so hi Buttercups, hi people who listen to this podcast, for ted lasso. Um, there was a lot of violence here. Uh, it is hyper, um, stylized intentionally. Um, the, the ragu, or the sort of. When the ravioli was dumped on the poor kid's head, it was black, like it was brownish, blackish, like motor oil colored, which suggests like the level of gristle on the existing pan and and the. You know these are choices. The, the gnome goes into frame. The kid is begging, no, no, no, and we see the person swing it. And then we know that, as we pull out, the person whoever would the aggressor was, had followed through with, um, with that attack, that, and I was like what am I watching at this point?

Speaker 3: 56:00

like, yeah, I, I, yeah, I started trying to decide what I thought it was and I almost knew I was wrong, but I did feel almost like a panic need to understand what was going on and even what I wanted to happen next, because I was like I don't know who this is. Maybe they got an asshole becoming it, I don't know. I really was like is this bad, is this good? Who is that? Is that Wayne's big brother Was definitely one of my thoughts.

Speaker 4: 56:27

Yes, that is what I thought. Did you too? Yeah, because I couldn't remember exactly what Wayne's house looked like. Are we seeing the big brother?

Speaker 3: 56:33

That's what I thought I was like. Oh, that's the big brother. Is that dad? In spryer days I had a rush of thoughts trying to like make sense of this. So well done in terms of disorienting us, and then you know as stories at their best can do. And then and horrifying. Yeah, because I don't care who you are, even you do have it coming somebody pouring some scalding hot sauce shit over you.

Speaker 2: 56:57

That's, that's rough and then hitting you with the hot pan and listen. This is where I talk about how this show zigs when everybody else zags. I thought the insert of the gnome was atmospheric. I thought it was an established shot. I didn't know that was the weapon. Yeah, I was like wait what?

Speaker 3: 57:16

And that's an element of this show, just as you say. That jumped out at me. Sorry, coach, I didn't mean to cut. No, no, no, no, please, real quick, is this world is so dangerous, wayne's world? Oh, ha ha ha. But Wayne's world is so dangerous that that everything is dangerous about it. You're watching TV one minute. You could brain a motherfucker with that TV. The next minute there's a hanging gnome that at one point was somebody's cute little thing and it's got some teeth missing and we're going to hang it and we're going to beat the shit out of somebody. It's just a hammer. Forget the fucking hammer. Hammer's supposed to be for building shit. No, yes, no, no, it's for fucking people up. It's like everything in this world is charged with a level of violence and danger, at least potentially.

Speaker 2: 58:08

Yeah, intentionally. Yeah, I broke a perfectly good zenith.

Speaker 3: 58:15

A zenith we had a zenith and I laugh so hard when they mention that zenith.

Speaker 4: 58:21

Oh my god, that was the last time that Bobby Lucchetti knew what a good TV was. He knew, yeah, as far as 1993 is concerned, you can't get a better TV.

Speaker 3: 58:30

No, yeah, yeah, yeah, good call, good call yeah.

Speaker 2: 58:34

I mean, if you believe the time frame on this, that thing was probably 35 years old and still Still kicking, was probably 35 years old and still still kicking, still kicking. Come on perfectly good. Um, so that was the cold open. We get the title. You know, smash title sequence uh, wayne, um. And now we begin uh, chapter nine, uh of each uh, all of the uh shows are labeled as chapters. This one is entitled what, coach? Thought we was friends, thought we was friends, and okay. So we now pivot to Ocala, florida, and we see city of Ocala community center and public pool and I'm like why are we at the pool? Like what is what is happening here? Um, and uh, coach, walk us through this please.

Speaker 3: 59:26

So we cut to, um, we cut to a very blued out. We know it's a pool, so the water, um. Shot of Dell, uh, looking down at us, very extreme angle, camera's probably about at the height of Del's knee or foot, depending on just how far away, but I mean very extreme angle. We are meant to understand that she's looking down onto or into something. So as we go we see the little flickers and a voice. Hey, excuse me, del looks over. There's a security guard, black woman standing there and she asks straight up you gonna kill yourself?

Speaker 2: 1:00:10

and Del says no now did you think she was gonna kill herself?

Speaker 3: 1:00:14

I wasn't sure what was happening. I didn't think kill herself. There's something about Del to this point. That didn't strike me to be the point she was at or headed toward. This wasn't what I got from it, but I get why if you're that security guard and you come across some person just staring down into a pool in the middle of the night while you ask that question.

Speaker 2: 1:00:33

Right, and do you remember anything about, because it's been a little while but do you? Remember anything about? Oh, what about the pool with her mom?

Speaker 3: 1:00:41

That's her hiding place when all else is lost.

Speaker 4: 1:00:49

Not just her hiding place, but that was after her mom died and she sort of broke down. I think that she froze. She wasn't able to deal with any of it. She went to the pool, she jumped into the pool, she came out and then she was able to start. Well, she was screaming under the pool. Screaming under the pool also.

Speaker 4: 1:01:06

In the water yeah, but screaming in the pool. She was in the pool and then, after she got done with that, she was able to go rage ass all over school Whether or not that was a good idea. This first step the pool and coming to terms with whatever feelings those are that allows her to move past it in a way. I would. I would say that spraying her classmates with blood at the school blood drive that she arranged probably is not the best way to move past things, but it was a sign that she was moving. She she had this traumatic breakup with Wayne. She's going to go to the pool and get her shit together and then she's going to go figure out what else she needs to do.

Speaker 3: 1:01:43

Well, I don't know if this is intentional. I'm going to run with it though, but I think the idea of her being at the pool with her mom and then going into that water and emerging and now we have again, at sort of this low point, going to the water has some pretty definite birth rebirth stuff going on Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:02:12

Baptism cleansing. Yeah, there's a lot here.

Speaker 3: 1:02:15

Yeah, there's a lot here about sort of the reemerging, cleansing, all those kinds of images and themes that we play with. So I did think Zell was going to jump into the pool, just as she had when that lifeguard had to dive in. I guess didn't have to, but certainly from his point of view, had to dive in and get her out of there.

Speaker 2: 1:02:44

So okay, so sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, so you're gonna kill yourself.

Speaker 3: 1:02:47

She says, no, yeah, so, uh, you're gonna steal some shit. Yeah, I'm gonna steal the goddamn pool water, just can't take the boss, not a girl. And then, um, so why do they need a security guard? She asked, so kids don't break in and kill themselves or steal shit, which I found to be funny. I think it's interesting. This is another example of Del bumping into someone who, class-wise, can match her energy. Yes.

Speaker 3: 1:03:20

Right, yeah. So, like, don't come into my diner starting a bunch of shit. Don't come in. I'm just here collecting my fucking check. I probably gotta be at work in the morning. Don't. Don't come in here killing yourself and give me a bunch of fucking paperwork to fill out. God damn it. Like. There's like an energy around it. It's very, um, practical and also like you don't. You don't scare me in the least, little girl energy that she gets back from these people.

Speaker 3: 1:03:49

So, anyway, um, yeah, well, you don't gotta worry about that with her. She turns back to the pool. Um, you must be having one shitty night if this is the best place you could find. Accurate, shitty couple of years. But who's counting? Ouch, and we know all that that means, or most of what that means. If you grab some of them foam kickboards and towels over there, you can make sorry, there's a really good place for you to sleep off. Whatever mess you're in, keep your mitts off the pool chemicals and your ass on dry land. I don't need to be rescuing nobody in my good chinos. You hear me Again, very practical. I don't know what the fuck you got going on. As long as your presence here is going to make more trouble for me, get some fucking sleep, know, I don't need this in my life I just thought it was you know like it, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 1:04:44

It all worked for me there and I thought it was an interesting way to show some compassion. It wasn't. Oh, come here, baby, give me a hug. Tell me, tell mama's girl, she was like ghost, fucking take a nap. Yeah, I don't even know why you're goddamn here. I actually don't want to know. Please don't tell me why you're here. Just I'm going to finish my rounds now and pretend I never saw you. That's what's going to happen.

Speaker 4: 1:05:12

And I am almost always on Del's side Not that I'm not on her side in this case, but I think that the difference between this interaction with the security guard and the interaction with tracy back in the restaurant is that dell had every right to be in that restaurant to order the coffee and tracy like sort of invaded her privacy to say hey, are you sure you want that coffee? She's like yeah, bitch, I want that fucking coffee. I thought that she was right in the way that she responded. In this case, dell, you did break into the community center and pool and the security guard's job is to make sure that there aren't kids there. So well, I don't think dell was necessarily rude when she said, yeah, I'm gonna steal the goddamn water, like that was not as bitchy as she could have been, because I think that dell understood I'm I shouldn't really be here, like I'm not gonna to be nice to this woman, but she's not in the wrong and so I like the way that this happened.

Speaker 4: 1:06:04

I think you're right about that there was a tiny bit more respect on Belle's part. The security guard, I think, picked up on that and was like you weren't having a good night, but just do what you need to do. Don't make me get my chinos wet.

Speaker 2: 1:06:17

Got him a good chinos. I loved that line so much like that was her concern. She's like I got because there are other chinos. She hasn't washed them yet. It's a fucking pain in the ass. You know, I'm just like, oh, I just love, I love it, I love it. These are my good chinos. I just even bought them.

Speaker 3: 1:06:32

They're the new ones, just that's right, that's what I was gonna say, even that is so drenched in class like I've actually personally had to work through. I'll have whatever item of clothing for eight years and finally I'll be like you know what. That's probably the useful life of a t-shirt. Orlando, it's okay, it's okay.

Speaker 4: 1:06:55

Pens on the t-shirt.

Speaker 3: 1:06:56

You can buy a new black t-shirt now. No, I'm not saying a concert t-shirt, I'm just saying my shoes, my whatever, like I'll be, like those are my good, you know, and I still have that in me. So when she said my good cheetos, I was like listen, that lady has another pair of cheetos she really doesn't want to fucking wear like please don't make her wear.

Speaker 3: 1:07:16

They don't want to and she doesn't have 10 pairs either, by the way. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So yeah, anyway, I think no one has to walk around saying oh, by the way, I'm working class, oh well, that's interesting because I'm poor. I think you can sort of like some of the things people pay attention to and comment on, tell you a ton For sure it's the inverse of.

Speaker 2: 1:07:40

You should borrow ten thousand dollars from your family, or or wherever, just grab it yeah, just you know, yeah, just somebody somebody's got ten grand, just pick it off the money, bush, just exactly right I don't know why everyone's so lazy. They don't pull himself up by their own bootstraps and just pick money off a tree. Um, okay, so we get a shot of Adele. She's like kind of I love this shot because it's like a straight down from the top shot. You know a lot of good camera work in this series, you know there's also a lot of extreme angles in this episode.

Speaker 3: 1:08:14

Just calling that out real quick, like we are at a crisis point and things feel chaotic and things look chaotic, which adds to the feeling of chaos. We're at a low angle. We're tracking this kid running. Oh my god, there's a hand from behind him. He's looking out the fucking door, but all the space is behind him and here comes the person. There's a lot of the energy is frenetic.

Speaker 2: 1:08:38

And it's intentional, lest anyone wonders.

Speaker 3: 1:08:41

Oh, do they need to do this, or they just need.

Speaker 2: 1:08:43

Oh, no, no no, yes, this is where we are. Dell is looking at the bus ticket in their hand and it says non refundable. I believe it's what? Uh, we get an insert of it. Um, she lays it down next to her. Um, like, lays it down next to her. It's like the only thing she has left is this bus ticket. You would lay down next to a partner or a dog or something or a loved one. It's all she's got left and it says not refundable, subject to blah, blah, blah, some kind of change order. So now we cut back to Maureen's place and Wayne walks out and we get this scene. It's so funny to watch Coach watch this for the first time.

Speaker 3: 1:09:30

I'm actually curious to hear this, because I definitely had a string of reactions.

Speaker 2: 1:09:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, reggie's sitting at the table. It's morning. Wayne comes out of his room or wherever he was sleeping, reggie's sitting at the table, morning coffee boy. And what what he so he's got some cocoa puffs, uh, uh, cereal on the table. Um and uh, like a probably had about a third of a jug, a gallon sized container, of whole milk and a third of it is left. Two thirds is gone.

Speaker 2: 1:10:07

And he says morning coffee boy. He's already sitting there like waiting for him. He says oh, don't worry, I got you a bowl too. So in front of Reggie he has the type of bowl little children usually use for Halloween trick or treating Enough to hold your entire haul. The type of bowl little children usually use for Halloween trick-or-treating Enough to hold your entire haul. He's got a big plastic. It's bigger than a salad bowl, it's that big. And he says I got you a bowl. And he hands Wayne a standard-sized salad bowl type of thing and places it in front of Wayne. He's got his toothpick in. He's smacking his lips. Wayne is just nonplussed. He watches this, doesn't say anything, just sighs and sits down across from Reggie. Before Wayne has a chance to grab the Cocoa Puffs, reggie grabs them and pours just about the entire bowl. Uh dire box in his own bowl and he's watching wayne as he pours out all that cereal.

Speaker 3: 1:11:12

Yeah, even as, because I saw that whatever toy was in there fell. I saw that in real time. I noticed it, yeah, and I thought, like that didn't even cat, like he didn't even like flick his eye down like, oh, what the fuck was that? Like he's just like I am emptying this box into my bowl as you sit there with an empty bowl, fuck you. Like it's so. It's so on the nose. It's the opposite of subtle and it's also so. It's like, in a literal way, childish, because you are a grown person of voting age and you are eating chocolate, cocoa Puffs. Yeah, it's all intended to give this sense of he is an overgrown child. There's a bizarre brand of sibling rivalry. There's a lot going on here.

Speaker 2: 1:11:57

There's a lot going on. It's playful if it wasn't so conflict-oriented. So even how he slides the box across to Wayne once he's done. He slides it across with this real I don't know this really determined shove and Wayne has sort of his head down just kind of taking it all in, hasn't said a word, grabs the box box and then pours in whatever's left and it's generally, you know, the stuff that falls out of the bag and gets in the box, kind of thing Like there's. You know there are hundreds of Cocoa Puffs in Reggie's Bowl and what. Three or four or five.

Speaker 3: 1:12:37

Maybe Right.

Speaker 2: 1:12:38

Yeah, come into Wayne's Bowl. And then he puts the box down, doesn't say a word, takes the milk, pours the milk in Again not a word and slams the milk sort of down on the counter. Now it's his turn to say take this milk from me in a weird way or something.

Speaker 3: 1:13:01

I don't know. I also thought it was I don't give a fuck about your petty annoyances, which is a line I think I've pretty much stolen from silence of the lambs. Uh, that's something. That is that that is said, but like his petty, like he he's like I'm gonna do this thing and get on your nerves, and wayne is like I don't give a fuck about you, reggie, yeah, move, yes, very much you know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 1:13:29

Like he's like oh, you can't have my cocoa puffs. Like I don't really give much of a fuck about breakfast. To be honest with you. Like that's the energy I feel, like I eat like once every three days.

Speaker 2: 1:13:39

Yeah, I don't give a shit. What do you think's happening here?

Speaker 3: 1:13:41

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:13:42

Like I had a full dinner last night and it was like I'll be full till Tuesday on this one. So go ahead, boss.

Speaker 4: 1:13:48

Well, so what is happening here to me feels like just a slight escalation of what Maureen was doing at dinner the previous night, which was they are putting on the face of this is a very happy family, yes, this is a normal.

Speaker 4: 1:14:04

Listen, brothers fight, it's fine, come on, you're roughhouse. Sometimes it makes me crazy, like I know of a very waspy family where the oldest brother, being six years older than the youngest, used to do things like grab his four-year-old brother when he was 10 by the ankle and walk him upstairs so like he was either hitting his head or like like that was some real significant shit. That was full-on child abuse of the child and the younger one and his parents were like oh oh boy that little four-year-old probably had it coming Boys, just fight, that's fucking amazing.

Speaker 2: 1:14:44

It's so crazy. I don't.

Speaker 4: 1:14:47

Yeah, no, there's a lot. So there is a. Whenever I feel like there is a facade of we are going to be polite and nice in order to not upset the family, even though directly underneath there is, like this, roiling dysfunction and abuse. Like it, it I, I can't be nice. It's why dell had to come in and say, like fuck you and fuck your fucking pottery bowl.

Speaker 3: 1:15:11

Yeah, she couldn't take it. Yeah, she really couldn't. She could not stomach the bullshit of this and you know it's funny. Until you said that that's such a great point Because say what you will about the Lucchetti family, those motherfuckers real.

Speaker 4: 1:15:28

Yes, yeah they might be violent.

Speaker 3: 1:15:31

They might be, but they real. Ain't nobody sitting around there pretending I'm going to say, oh, could you chop some wood? Well, oh sure, sweetie, I'll get to it just as soon as I fuck you. Go chop your goddamn like there's no pretense. So I could see where, yeah, dell is like what is this bullshit?

Speaker 2: 1:15:49

yeah is anybody gonna say what they really mean yeah it's detente or whatever right, yeah, yeah, no, and that makes me sick. The story about the little kid getting I don't. It makes me and because you, the internalized violence in that and the parents allowing it. Yes, so guilty, and you want to pull the mom aside and be like what are you? What the fuck?

Speaker 2: 1:16:10

yeah, and then you go to the dad and you're like why? This is why I talk about bad dads like there's not a lot of the role models for dads are, so I saw a video on social media today and it bothered me.

Speaker 3: 1:16:21

It's so funny this topic comes up today because it really bothered me. I didn't comment because one I don't know these people, I don't really give that much of a shit and I like, what am I going to argue with them about? But the video was this little kid like weeping, like heavy breathing kind of weeping, but I don't want to go to jail. I don't want to go to jail. Um, I don't want to go to jail.

Speaker 3: 1:16:46

I want to go to jail and the mom is very calm, you're like, well, but you wouldn't listen to me and none of my punishments have worked, and and this kid is fucking sobbing and I can't, and I, you know, I can't even go to sleep without my light and the food and all this shit. And it's going on and on and people cracking, you know, like in the comments, cracking up and I was like what kind of traumatizing fucking shit is this? And one person said something along those lines, because I started scanning the comments and the response was like no, that's why he'll do everything he can to avoid it. I, I was like you have human psychology so fucked up. I don't even know where to begin because this behavior, internalized and given 10, 12 years to marinate, this is going to be some kid walking around some city punching somebody in the face for zero fucking reason.

Speaker 3: 1:17:39

The idea you used a phrase earlier, boss, that people use a lot, which is about toughening up, and I think there are ways to build resilience. I don't think that everything is a coddling moment, I get that. But the idea of intentionally traumatizing a little kid, and because they don't understand, because they can't process it, you know another one that comes up and I get this one doesn't bother me as much as I'm going to call the police on you because you won't go to bed or whatever the fuck it was. Is this and Jimmy Kimmel has it where they eat the kids, can't they say they ate the halloween candy?

Speaker 4: 1:18:25

and I'm like, yes, I was gonna mention that. Good, I'm glad I'll hand it over to you. I'm like what?

Speaker 3: 1:18:31

I'm like what the fuck is this?

Speaker 2: 1:18:33

you know, that's how I was go, go, go. What I was actually thinking when she was.

Speaker 4: 1:18:37

when you were telling me about whatever that parent was doing, I was thinking I fucking hate it when jimmy Jimmy Kimmel makes the parents pretend to eat their kid's candy on Halloween, because then you watch kids cry or get upset or angry, or feel like their property shouldn't be valued and that their physical boundaries shouldn't be respected. I hate it. I hate everything about it. I hate every fucking goddamn thing Also.

Speaker 4: 1:19:01

I hate the idea of toughening somebody up. Also, I think resilience is a good thing. I like resilience, I appreciate it a lot, but I think that is because the world is fucking tough and so sometimes you need to develop resilience in order to deal with that. Nobody should come in and be like, hey, the world is really hard, so I'm going to brand you because then you'll be tougher and it's not going to be.

Speaker 3: 1:19:25

No, that's a hundred percent.

Speaker 4: 1:19:27

in the same vein, I hate when people say everything happens for a reason. So I'm like bitch, like I will give this meaning once I have processed it. Don't tell me that God is making my dad die because someday I'm going to learn something from that. Like no, fuck off man, I'll figure it out. Don't tell me it happened for a reason. I will tell you what I got from it happening.

Speaker 3: 1:19:47

I so agree with what you just said and I don't want to take us too far off this moment with these two brothers because there's a lot going on here. But I am with you on that. Everything happens for a reason, and I think it robs people of the ability and the habit of deciding what I'm going to make of this now. So now I'm going to sit passively. I'm just going to sit here passively, just being very obedient and waiting for the reason to be revealed to me, like what are we even fucking discussing? So I, yes, so everything you just said and, generally speaking, the average person doesn't need you coming in and and and making your agenda, toughening them up by, frankly, abusing your power in the situation. Yep.

Speaker 2: 1:20:34

It robs people of agency and it allows them to abdicate their responsibility to digest and and appropriately react to the situation. Yes, Also, all of those kids, every one of them, whether it's to the Jimmy Kimmel or the little other child that you were talking about crying about jail has learned unequivocally that they are not safe and that is a real thing.

Speaker 3: 1:21:00

Yes, I remember my babysitter's teenage son telling me he saw my mother in an accident. I couldn't have been six.

Speaker 3: 1:21:08

There's no way I was six, because I know the time of my life when I was in that house and he told, oh yeah, and she, she was bleeding, she was in this accident, all this shit. This guy's like looking back, I'm like what kinds of sociopaths, yeah, have we been manufacturing? This is a normal guy, like some kid who was in his biology class a few hours earlier, who was going out of his way to convince me, my mother, the source of everything in my life had just been in some like horrific accident and he saw it on his way and he was just letting me know what?

Speaker 4: 1:21:46

and just to make sure that we're drawing a distinction with my niblings and all the little kids in my life, because anybody who's not blood related to me, they run to the door to give me a hug because they love me. My fucking nieces and nephew. I, I did this, I made this happen, I played this game with them where I pretend that they hate me and they pretend that they hate me and then eventually actually it turns out they love me very much. So it's fine. But one of the teasing things that we do is I say to them please don't give me any hugs or kisses. I'm not really interested in that right now. And then, of course, the four-year-old chases me around and gives me a hug and makes me pick him up.

Speaker 4: 1:22:21

But that's the thing. He knows that it's a game and I know that he knows that it's a game and he and I have been able to like through our relationship within this safety. I'm going to do a thing that is a trick. That is not true. You're going to know it's not true. And then we're both going to play. And that is very, very different from saying I'm going to send you to jail because you won't go to bed Like I'm. Oh, this is why I have to kill people.

Speaker 2: 1:22:48

Well, this is this is what we talked the other day about. You know, when you sometimes you're in a divorce or you're, you know, with a chaotic person, and then you, you know, get out of the relationship, and then you're like, oh God, it's so nice to have a stable person, you know, as the next person there, because it gives you sort of a roadmap, a little bit of like okay, it can be this way. It's very difficult when you take safety away from a child and so in their family unit they're not safe for them to then grow up to the point where they're easy it's easy for them to manufacture that on their own. It just makes it more difficult, and so I don't think any of those things are funny and um, and I love to laugh and I love a good joke, but that that doesn't seem fucking hate pranks.

Speaker 2: 1:23:32

I fucking hate pranks oh yeah, you've said that before. You don't like pranks. I mean, I like a good um if everybody's in on it. I I like that type of thing, like you know like a good um. I don't know, I guess it depends if it's like a thing I also I.

Speaker 3: 1:23:49

I think safety is one of the things for me about a prank. And and also, like you just said, coach, if you haven't had safety right like somebody who's always felt safe, maybe it's funnier to them.

Speaker 2: 1:24:00

I don't know I mean, why do you think we're all reacting to the world? It's not. It's used to be much. It used to at least feel you had at least the illusion of safety.

Speaker 4: 1:24:09

Yes, I'm so glad you said that I like that. We have been doing this podcast long enough that you knew to say the illusion of safety. That is exactly right.

Speaker 2: 1:24:16

It wasn't actual safety but it was at least some of the pillars of society functioned in the way that we could expect them to function. Now you're like, I'm just like, it's just chaos.

Speaker 3: 1:24:28

People driving across intersections. No really though? No, really, it's like crazy. You kind of feel like whoa, I didn't know that was on the table.

Speaker 2: 1:24:36

Yeah, yeah, coach, I'm sorry I cut you off.

Speaker 3: 1:24:42

What were you gonna say? Oh, I know, I, I, I don't even recall which one was the cutoff, we were all going, but I, I, I think that piece around safety is so big and like personal work I've done over the last couple years specifically around like how unsafe I have generally felt just through life, not just specific stories. I could tell you where, oh, bullets were literally flying and I had to run. That is a real thing but just generally sitting on the couch feeling unsafe, and I just think making people feel unsafe it should be done very cautiously. I've said about pranks. I'm going to say this real quick because I'll let youiously. I've said about pranks. I'm going to say this real quick before I let you go. I've said about pranks before, when people are like I'm going to beat the shit out of you and that's a prank, and then they're like it's a prank. That would be such a fuck up around me because now I'm going to beat your ass because it's a prank.

Speaker 1: 1:25:37

You're saying it's a prank like that's the end of the beatdown.

Speaker 3: 1:25:40

I just thought we generally had a fight a minute ago. Now I realize you was fucking with me. Now you are really in danger. I always think it's crazy when they're like it's a prank. It's a prank. That would not work at all if you did that to me.

Speaker 2: 1:25:55

We have spent a tremendous amount of time on this podcast, whatever talking about the safety of women in society, or ab complete absence, uh, or lack thereof but what we?

Speaker 2: 1:26:06

haven't we talked only a little bit. We probably should talk more about the how unsafe men are in society and the projection and reaction based on that lack of safety in men, which is where you get all these gun owners who are getting ready for a fight because they think they're imminently about to be invaded by some fucking phantom organization to take their guns. And you're like wait what? Or take their job, like whatever all that shit from South. You're just like what are you doing?

Speaker 2: 1:26:36

Like they are feeling unsafe and it's something we do not train Well, we do not reassure, we do not say uh, you're actually, you're, you're good man, like if Biden wins. You're good Like, you know you're, you're going to basically be business as usual. Once upon a time, people used to say like, oh, it doesn't really matter who I vote for, who gives a shit, I'll get fucked either way, and, and that was it. And people had that and they weren't all that wrong. It's, it matters this time.

Speaker 2: 1:27:06

But it but um, but in general, um, we do a very bad job about uh, talking. I'll give you an example. I saw something I really loved uh, I saw it on threads which was a woman said, a man propositioned her to go out on a date and he said and her, her view of him changed immediately because he said hey, I'm interested in you. Um, I think you're great, uh, and I'd love to take you out, but also, if you're not into it, I'm safe and I can handle rejection. I know who I am, and so, if you're totally not cool, that you're also like, I really want you to just be totally cool and I miss.

Speaker 2: 1:27:40

I'm saying it not in the right way. What? He said was better.

Speaker 3: 1:27:44

But he was like up front.

Speaker 2: 1:27:45

He was like if you're ready to reject me, you know, I'm a hundred percent.

Speaker 3: 1:27:49

Fine, I don't have, I don't have a brick behind me that I'm going to hit you with, cause you didn't give me my phone interesting way to approach it.

Speaker 2: 1:27:58

But it made her like rethink. Oh, like, maybe he is something I'm in as someone who's isn't that interesting. And then one of one of my friends who's a woman was like I'd have to see it to believe it, though. I was like that's. I was like, oh god, women are, so you know what I mean. Like she's like, oh, that could be, that could be, I get it.

Speaker 3: 1:28:15

it's like another, it's a little, it's an extra, like oh, I learned that this is a thing, oh God.

Speaker 2: 1:28:22

And boss is nodding. Again, I feel like the white person who's?

Speaker 3: 1:28:27

like why don't you just tell the security officer that you brought it in with you?

Speaker 2: 1:28:32

No, that's not how that works. Yeah, that's cute.

Speaker 3: 1:28:36

Yeah, that's adorable that you think that. Sorry for my ignorance, boss. I thought we had made a big advance there.

Speaker 4: 1:28:42

No, no, no, no. I think that it is actually a really great thing if it isn't co-opted by assholes in order to trick women into going on dates. Like. The thing is, you really do need to know yourself well enough that if they reject you, you're not going to be upset and then actually follow through on that.

Speaker 3: 1:29:05

Ideally, this will become the standard and then people won't need to say it and we won't have to not trust or whatever else. But yeah, that is so.

Speaker 4: 1:29:09

Yeah, that is a brand of sad but also I think I've mentioned it on the show before but the only acceptable prank that's ever happened is when jimmy kimmel's wife arranged for rihanna to come to their house and sing was brilliant. And sing to Jimmy Kimmel in the middle of the night, waking him up, Because then you wake up and number one, Rihanna's in your bedroom and number two, she has strewn hundreds of dollars around your bed. So that's fine, that feels like a fine prank, but you know what though?

Speaker 3: 1:29:35

And seriously, because I've done, I've been around've done, I've been around witness been a part of pranks. That would be in violation of my present rules and not and and I think to fool somebody or confuse them, I think is different than to make the person think they are in danger. Like something is you you could die in the next two minutes is different than. Why is there loud music playing and a person jumping on my bed? What's happening?

Speaker 2: 1:30:07

Which one of you has a berserker yelling behind you, by the way? Oh, that's me.

Speaker 4: 1:30:13

Yeah. That's 100%, boss, that's.

Speaker 2: 1:30:15

that is the cement truck that just pulled up in front of my apartment to repave the sidewalk they took to took away the other day that's good, um I I think uh a lot of people would be bummed out if uh rihanna was in their bedroom and they hadn't put on their good chinos.

Speaker 4: 1:30:32

That's funny, oh what if you're wearing your retainer as a very adult? Jimmy kimmel was hi is that true, that true.

Speaker 3: 1:30:39

I don't remember that that's funny I remember her jumping on the bed and thinking, oh my God, it was either a retainer or a mouth guard of some sort.

Speaker 4: 1:30:49

But definitely he woke up and he was like oh, oh, like had to take it out in front of Rihanna. Can you imagine I would have to move? That is great. That's cool. That's super cool, that is great.

Speaker 2: 1:30:58

That is great, that's cool, that's super cool, that is great.

Speaker 2: 1:31:01

All right. So we have the boys at the table. There's this playful thing he does not relinquish, wayne does not relinquish the milk, and dummy Reggie dives right in with his spoon and Wayne says no milk. And he says no, don't do moo juice. I don't do moo juice and he says hurts your tummy. Wayne says you know, it comes from cow titties, right, and then he flicks a car over out of a little matchbox car and Wayne says you scared of titties? And he flicks the car back.

Speaker 3: 1:31:32

That was the toy in the box. All right, that car, I believe, was the prize in the box.

Speaker 2: 1:31:38

I'm pretty sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, and he flicks it back. Reggie slaps his hand down on it and says lactose intolerant, motherfucker.

Speaker 3: 1:31:54

And he says so it hurts your tummy. I mean it's really interesting dialogue in that basically Wayne's saying you're a little boy, to me you are irrelevant. Lactose intolerant is I'm a big boy, I'm a man like that level of I'm sure we've talked about at some point. But quickly, you have first level dialogue you say what you mean. You have second level dialogue where you say something other than what you mean. You have second level dialogue where you say something other than what you mean and the other person doesn't know or may not know what you mean. And then there's third level where you're saying shit and you don't even know what you're actually meaning by that. And this is outstanding second level. They're having a whole conversation. Have you just read the transcript? There you go, two guys kicking it having a little breakfast Alright, great, lactose intolerant. And there's a whole pissing contest about who's the man.

Speaker 2: 1:32:51

Yep, absolutely right. She come all this way to eat my fucking cereal. Oh, because you miss your mama or some shit. Or should I say my mama?

Speaker 4: 1:33:00

That's the funniest part to me is that he's like oh, little baby loves his mama. Fuck you, reggie. Last night you asked her to cut your meat for you, like you're not a fucking grownup, you're going to make fun of him because you want, he wants Maureen to like him. Come on.

Speaker 2: 1:33:14

So Maureen walks in right at that moment she's like oh, that's that stupid guy, she's complaining Morning. That stupid got, she's complaining Morning. Mama Reggie hops up super fast. I made your coffee for you the way you like. And what does Maureen say here, boss?

Speaker 4: 1:33:29

Excuse me, that alligator took a crap in the front lawn again, which the again is a lot, so go clean that up.

Speaker 2: 1:33:41

She doesn't react to the coffee. Go clean that up please. And as he heads out, wayne is just sitting there. He sees we get an insert of the keys on the table, which Coach noticed. And then Coach also noticed what, coach? What happens here?

Speaker 3: 1:33:56

Reggie's stupid, but he ain't that stupid Because he know he ain't there to eat cereal, nor really to find his mother. He's. I think at this point it's very clear and, speaking of second level, it's very clear that it's. It's all about that gold car and, um, yeah, I thought, I thought, I thought it was fascinating re-watching this.

Speaker 3: 1:34:19

You know you pick up certain things Rewatching this. What I'm picking up on is, you know what's interesting? You've had Maureen all this time, yet you seem real motherfucking nervous about who she's lined up with. I didn't process that until now, as we're having this conversation, that boy, you know you would think, given what led up to this moment, wayne would be the one to jump up and say, oh I, I got you some coffee right. But why is it? Why is it him? And and I think this uh, uh, a reality of their real places you can eat all the Cocoa Puffs, you can do whatever. One of us used to live inside of that person and will forever be linked to them if we never see each other again. And Reggie's feeling that.

Speaker 2: 1:35:15

Reggie might be losing his mama.

Speaker 3: 1:35:17

I think he you know what I mean as much as he's like oh, she's mine, she's mine, you don't have to say she's mine, she's mine. Like you don't have to say she's mine, Unless that's in question, I show up to a party with my wife. I'm like, hey, this is my wife, by the way, in case anybody's wondering. But I will tell you that once we went out before our wedding with both, you know, with the whole wedding party not like you know, bachelor, bachelorette, whatever party, not like you know, bachelor, bachelorette, whatever we just all went out to this club and this dude walked up to ask Daphne to dance, and loud enough that it could be heard over some music, I said that's my wife, man and all. I first started laughing, you know, but I did need to say it there because somebody was coming and was not recognizing that's my wife and thought maybe she'd end up his wife and that couldn't happen.

Speaker 2: 1:36:03

So I think, Reggie?

Speaker 3: 1:36:05

she did not. She did not. Interestingly enough, Did she end up his wife? She did not. Okay, good that worked out, it all worked out.

Speaker 2: 1:36:12

Nice move, nice move.

Speaker 3: 1:36:13

It all worked out. She has referenced that moment wistfully more than once.

Speaker 2: 1:36:23

So I don't know what to do with that.

Speaker 3: 1:36:24

Yeah, no, it's tough, we'll talk about that some other time. He made her magic mic. She's like you know I had one last off ramp. Yeah, one shot If I really think about it, but yeah, no anyway. I see Reggie is for all his chest puffed out. He is a scared little boy right now, and he too has grown up without his mommy on a certain level, so it's interesting to see how it's all playing out.

Speaker 2: 1:36:49

So she sends him outside to get the alligator poop and we stay on him. We have some voiceover here by Maureen. We're watching him. She says I swear to God, reggie's special needs. We see him grab the pooper scooper and cut back. It's a little cross-cutting. You know when he was a kid. It's like a standard hip level pooper scooper with a trigger where it opens the jaws like a clamp at the bottom and scoops up the poop. You know when he was a kid.

Speaker 2: 1:37:13

Maureen says um, we used to have a have to not take him to the beach because all he would do was eat sand, just scoop after scoop, but here crunching in his teeth, um, and reggie, while she's saying this, he takes the pooper scooper, picks up poop in it and then doesn't know what to do with it. So he just throws the entire pooper scooper in somewhere god knows where and then we're smelling. He's smelling his face, anyone smelling his hands, like he did Again, amazing acting. It's just so good Smelling his hand. He says that's why he's got gold teeth. She says nah, he just likes looking like an asshole.

Speaker 3: 1:37:50

Another laugh line for me.

Speaker 2: 1:37:54

Yeah, she's okay. I put some clean towels in your room for you. I put a couple extra there for your girl. And Wayne looks down. She notices something's wrong. She don't need none, she's gone. She says oh, and doesn't react. Wayne says you ever take me to the beach. And this is a great reaction here. I don't know if you guys picked up on this. She's like oh.

Speaker 3: 1:38:27

And she keeps it. Reminded me of Nate Wanting to be a big dog. Right, yeah, right, yes, like it's so outside Like she's like you must be kidding, yeah, and then realizes he's not and that's extra awkward now yeah, moving on.

Speaker 2: 1:38:44

He says what are you making, uh? And she says, um, oh, uh, you know, I got my own candle business and I sell them at swap meets. Um, and I got erotic and non-erotic scents they're the same, they just get different names um, and he says I like this one. She says, yeah. He says it smells like a tree. She says, yeah, this is the woodsy one, I love it. You got very good taste. And he smiles uh, you know when's the last time you got a compliment from his mom?

Speaker 2: 1:39:14

um, so he's like, uh, there, this entire interaction um Mark McKenna, who plays Wayne, is incredibly sweet. Boyish looks at his mommy. You know, very asynchronous with his age. The way he's looking at her is the way a five-year-old would look at his mom.

Speaker 3: 1:39:39

That's right.

Speaker 2: 1:39:39

Right, that's not how, how he, you know, he's really sort of I'm not gonna say regressing, but he's he's returning to an, to an earlier developmental phase with regard to, like her, her compliments and things like that I know we've brought it up before we.

Speaker 3: 1:39:57

Oh I'm sorry, boss, boss, I was just going to say, I think, continuing to remember that when we experience a trauma psychologically without doing the work, psychologically, a piece of us stays there, no-transcript, and I think it matters a lot. I also think it's fascinating. There's a whole other conversation. Who's it? Who's in our prisons is a question for me that comes out of this scene.

Speaker 3: 1:40:50

Because she says special needs, like, kind of like how for a while people were using what I'll refer to as the r word. You know people said that and then special became this like odd. Somehow you've now managed to turn this into the same kind of loaded word that the r-word used to be. So now we say special and it still has the same weight.

Speaker 3: 1:41:12

And and she to me, she doesn't say special needs like she's about to pull out his iep, she says special needs like you know that boy ain't right in the head, but they have like a more dressed up way to say it now. But I say all that to say if your child is chewing sand at the beach, because of the sensory experience of the chewing and hearing that crunch, you might want to have them evaluated. There is probably some shit going on and, as much as we're all like Reggie's an idiot, reggie's this, reggie's that, reggie's whatever, maybe Reggie hasn't gotten the care that he required all this time, because eating sand at the beach to hear the crunch, this is not in the normal range of behavior.

Speaker 3: 1:41:55

Like come on.

Speaker 4: 1:41:57

It's a little alarming. It should be addressed. I was going to say a couple of things, the first of which is that, yes, wayne's face here is a little more childlike than we've seen him be. I actually wish that we lived in a society where more 16 year old boys could look at their mom this way and that didn't seem weird or immature.

Speaker 4: 1:42:19

Of course I would prefer that I actually like as much as I seem like, um, uh, a hard ass who hates anything with joy. I do actually think that that would be better for everybody involved if we could get there. Um, I'd also like to mention that, uh, the boyfriend who I think I've mentioned before, he's never been officially diagnosed, but based on a lot of stuff that both he and I know we we're both like oh so you're, you are on the autism spectrum somewhere, right, like you got you got that shit. Like you don't want to self-diagnose, but definitely right.

Speaker 4: 1:42:52

Um, he's also extremely smart, which means that when he was in second grade and what, for whatever reason, the tracking in his school, like in terms of high achieving and then regular or or additional needs, whatever that was, for some reason they called both the higher and lower levels special reading or special math, and so that did uh lead to him at different points telling people oh well, I'm in special math. And the adults going now you individually, are you trying to tell me you're very smart or that you, honey, might need some extra time? Which one are you trying to tell me here? And he was like no, I'm in the smart class, god damn it, but yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:43:42

And what if both? That's a whole other conversation. What if you're? Very smart and you need more time it was fucking both. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:43:48

Now it turns out that the adults are reading it right because they're like oh well, you seem very smart, but also you're a little bit weird.

Speaker 2: 1:43:56

People are. I like that. There's a healthy understanding about that, about the diagnoses or whatever. When I was in Los Angeles I said to this group of people I said you know, virtually everybody I know in one way or another is either on the spectrum or adjacent in some fashion, and it's okay and it's fine. I don't know why what the obsession is with being what they call historically neurotypical. But now that world is changing and what word is taking predominance is the term holistic, which is more representative of not being, rather than have the word typicality in there. You say, oh, you're neurotypical and then you're neurodivergent. Some people would now say, oh, you're autistic and you're holisticotypical, and then you're neurodivergent. Some people would now say, oh, you're autistic and you're holistic, and it has less of a hidden meaning. That said, uh, the utes of today, uh, all the utes in the in gen z um. Uh, there is now a trend where the term autistic is now like becoming a slur.

Speaker 2: 1:45:02

Yeah, no which is, which is super fun, yeah, no, for real. And coach is like wait, what? And it's like, yeah, like oh, we got to go there's. Yeah, we went there as a bunch of autistics and whatever. That just means. That doesn't mean kids with autism, that means what other other really all right I'm totally old man in y'all right now because I haven't.

Speaker 3: 1:45:22

I'm like wait what? Yeah, so interesting because I always thought yeah, this is this I felt like this generation, like part of the. This generation in quotes of alpha and you know, even z, is that they were more aware and more dialed in with all that kind of stuff. So I'm curious, generally they are what drove this?

Speaker 2: 1:45:45

Yeah, I'm curious, a lot of kids who have parents who have raised them 66 million people who, anyway, I'm saying there's plenty of people in this country who have chosen an alternative methodology. I got you Okay, but I would say, primarily, knowing is better than not knowing. If you don't, if you're a person out there listening to this and you've always wondered about things like this, there's something called a neuropsych evaluation, which is, I think, so much fun. Also, you can get genetic testing from your doctors now, and genetic testing is fantastic. All of these tests make the invisible visible, and if you've been swimming in jello your whole life and not knowing it, you can just take something.

Speaker 2: 1:46:32

And I'm not an advocate of pills or something. I'll give you an example. In my case, my body does not process folate, and folate is just a thing. It's's like genetically I can't. It's like folic acid, that type of thing fully. It's an amino acid, uh, need for cellular function, and my, my body does not naturally. Uh, other people can ingest food, extract the folate and then you're good to go. My body does not do it. And so we looked at my children. We found out oh, they don't do it yet. Guess what we do? We take little folate supplements, good to go. Yeah, we take folate and and guess what it's like mood changing. It's like really a big deal like, and so when people say I don't want to be on pills, I don't want to do.

Speaker 2: 1:47:16

Yeah, well, you're talking about brain chemistry same reason yeah, it's just brain chemistry and our cellular, you know health. And so I had a friend when I was just out in Los Angeles. He says you know, you know, my wife wants to run my daughter through all these tests and yeah, you know, she was delayed on reading and yeah, she was this and yeah, she was that. You know and you know. But it's just like I don't want my kid to be one of those kids on all the pills and everything. And I said, huh, yeah, okay, I get it. I was like, listen, I used to be one of those.

Speaker 2: 1:47:53

I think you, I think it's very common to come at these types of things and say, man, I don't want like a mirror, I don't want my big farmer to get ahold of my kit, Like I really get all that stuff. But in general I say I always advocate for a neuropsych evaluation. Go in, do the test. They tell you it's amazing. They say, oh, you have this type of memory, you have this type of processing, you have this type of like uh, processing speed, you can, you can. And you say what does it look like? What does a neuropsych eval they? They have you do like a general version of a, what used to be called a whisk test.

Speaker 2: 1:48:23

They do um, they'll say they'll tell you five words. They'll say, oh, cat screen, whatever, you know whatever. And then they'll they'll say, okay, say them backwards. And you say back, then they'll tell you okay, how many of those words do you remember? An hour and a half later, they'll say, like I remember any of those words and they know and can track all this stuff. And and then they give you this amazing report that says do you realize you don't process auditorily or something. And you're like, wait, I don't, it's just illuminating and listen. If you're a perfect person, if you're like Perseus listening to this podcast, okay, this is not for you. If you're slaying mythical beasts, yeah, no, you don't need that. But in general, most people don't have a sense of their psychological profile, their genetic profile, and then, in not prioritizing that for themselves, they don't prioritize that for their children and all it does is make the invisible visible and gives you options. You say, okay, I can choose not to address this, but at least you know that it is.

Speaker 3: 1:49:25

Now there are people and I heard you say it, but I don't want anyone to feel that it was glossed over there are people who feel that there's also, and there can be, some racial and gender and all the things that exist everywhere else in our world that comes into this, and all the things that exist everywhere else in our world that comes into this, that sometimes, when people are diagnosed, it does essentially become labeling, so it's not what you're describing and it's not descriptive. It's a way of categorizing people and I think I don't think that should happen. I don't think that's a reason to not do the testing. I do think it's a reason for us to look at how the result is being used and how people are being treated based on those results. But I will say that there was a relief for me when somebody said to me oh yeah, you got all. I mean, it was so funny.

Speaker 3: 1:50:18

We got to the end of my evaluation and I was, and I got the sense that the person who did my evaluation was like well, I can look all this shit over, but you got all the motherfucking ad. Like it wasn't, like oh, carry the one. It was like oh no, yeah, yeah, you got it and it has been life-changing and I share, even to the point where this morning I've been thinking about some stuff about how I'm working and what I need to get done, and then I was able to share with boss and coach hey, I still want to record, but I feel like we got to change the schedule because I'm not getting shit done otherwise that I need to be getting done because right. But also I understand that I exhaust mentally. I wouldn't have thought about that the same way if I didn't have this information or, frankly, just now, that I private messaged them. Oh, by the way, I don't know where I put my pill box, but I'm supposed to be taking my medicine. So if I seem a little extra willing to go down the rabbit holes today, that's that is correct, because I don't have I don't have my guardrails in place quite yet. So, anyway, I think there is so much value in it, but the value exists mostly if we can get everyone to agree to use this stuff appropriately.

Speaker 3: 1:51:38

So whoever's running around going oh, we went there, but there are a bunch of autistics there Not only does it strike me as unkind, but it's also a problem because it makes it more likely that your friend coach says you know what, let's not do the thing, because if they say that our child is autistic and that becomes a label on our child, then our child's going to be one of those autistics and I think that's the danger. It's like when people say ADHD I saw I actually turned it off. I watch all this stuff with football coaches because I'm like processing all this information and getting our program together. And one guy was like oh yeah, all the kids now have ADHD and he was talking about who didn't remember like their assignment on the football field and the level of rage I felt at a person I'd never met before, because I was like you're being an asshole. There's a room full of people there, which means there are probably people in that room who are neurodivergent, and why would any kid share their diagnosis if they knew that?

Speaker 3: 1:52:41

it's a punchline when the coaches get together, it's just anyway. I could go on and I have, but I think it's really important that we learn these things. When people say, socrates, know thyself, I think we are better and better able to know ourselves, and it's what we do with that. That's the real issue, cause I can tell you I'm a better husband, father, friend, brother all the things since I found out about my ADHD.

Speaker 4: 1:53:18

Yeah, I, um, I like everything that you just said so much, including the idea that we will actually damage people by not addressing their underlying problems rather than label them as having a problem to begin with. That's a huge fuck-up. That's an incredibly huge fuck-up. We shouldn't be doing that. I also I know that in a episode maybe months ago now I time doesn't matter anymore we talked about the words moron, idiot, like those types of things, and the way that at one point, those were diagnostic terms and that was supposed to indicate the level of developmental delay or whatever else.

Speaker 4: 1:53:48

Also, developmental delay then became this like sort of slur and the r word became the slur, and so I think that humans do have a tendency to take whatever word it is that we are supposed to be using to describe a very specific condition or very specific malady and then apply that to a bunch of people in a way that it shouldn't apply. That that sucks, that absolutely sucks. At the same time, I think that we need to allow people to have language to say like that thing you're doing is stupid yeah, I'm not saying you're stupid I'm not saying that like you're a bad person, but like hey you're.

Speaker 4: 1:54:28

You just wandered into the middle of the street without looking both ways. That was a stupid thing to do. Don't don't do that anymore. And so I want to make sure that, like, we keep both of those things I am. I know that we've talked about mitch hedberg on the show before because he's fucking hilarious. I just the other day left my phone in my car, went to the store and then, of course, the escalator was out of order and I'm like why don't I have a picture of the convenience of stairs right now? Fuck me, goddammit. But what I was thinking about is he was talking about how alcoholism is a disease, but it's one that people get mad at you for having mitch. You're an alcoholic mitch. You have lupus. Only one of those is said in an angry way and he is right, he was right, he's hilarious.

Speaker 4: 1:55:12

He's very funny. Um, I don't want to ignore the fact that being an alcoholic does create problems. There is this thing where we're like if you're an alcoholic, you're a bad person. No, that's not true. But if that being an alcoholic does create problems, there is this thing where we're like if you're an alcoholic, you're a bad person.

Speaker 4: 1:55:24

No, that's not true, but if you're an alcoholic, you're probably creating issues for the people around you, because otherwise we wouldn't label what's going on with you as being an alcoholic. Like. I want to be able to address the fact that those kids probably shouldn't have said like there are a bunch of autistics there. If what they were saying was there were people with whom we had difficulty having a conversation. I want to be able to acknowledge that, like in the same way that I don't think my boyfriend is a bad person in any way, shape or form for having autistic tendencies. But that means when I walk into his house and there is uh, he just got um, a medical thing to track his sleeping, because he's been having trouble sleeping. And I said what's this, what's all this about? And he said heart monitor, okay, and I was like okay, I'm gonna need you to elaborate on that a little bit, because that doesn't give me any of the information that I need.

Speaker 3: 1:56:20

I love you like. Oh, that's an r1957. What do you want for lunch?

Speaker 4: 1:56:24

hold on, hold on yeah, I was like hey, buddy, hey, but you have to know that I meant more than what is this like? What's happening with it? What's going on? Give me more. So I need to adjust and he needs to adjust. But both of us have to recognize that, because of the way his brain works, that's what he's going to say to me and that sometimes is going to be a problem for me and sometimes a problem for him, and we should both be able to work on that.

Speaker 3: 1:56:50

I solved your issue around stupid things being said and done and how to describe them during my stand-up days and at the time one Sarah Palin was in the news and I decided it's right. It's true, we shouldn't use the R word, that's true, and I think when we come across something really stupid, we should call it Sarah Palin, because Sarah. Palin can be pretty fucking Sarah Palin sometimes and it held up. Feel free to use it. That is my contribution to the English language.

Speaker 2: 1:57:28

So they're sitting at the table here. I told Calvin I need more space for my candles or whatever like a workspace. He said, oh no, I need that extra bedroom for my man cave. Boo. She says pfft, he got a flat screen TV last year, still sitting on the floor man cave, please Right, more like a goddamn junk cage. And so she lights a candle for Wayne and fans the air and he sniffs it Like I don't think Wayne gave a shit about candles before this moment. But he's been a supportive kid. You know, when you were a little baby you couldn't, you wouldn't go to sleep unless I lit a candle in your room for you. He says really, and she's, yeah, I mean he's hearing about himself as a little baby and she was there as a little baby in that image and she would like candles for him to help him sleep because she was someone at that time who cared about his sleep. So all of those uh bring up a very, uh sweet smile from him.

Speaker 3: 1:58:30

And she smiles I'd like to highlight that the surveillance monitor is between them in this shot. I actually tried to see if I could make it a little bigger to see what we're actually seeing there. But it feels very intentional. I mean it is centered between them.

Speaker 2: 1:58:50

Yeah, there's several screens in this room.

Speaker 3: 1:58:52

There's four. Yeah, there's at least four cameras here that we're seeing Well behind Wayne there's also another monitor.

Speaker 2: 1:58:57

Another monitor, yeah, and up top, I know in, yeah, there's, there's at least four cameras here that we're seeing. Behind Wayne there's also another monitor. Another monitor, yeah, and up top, I know in the corner there was another one. So that's like that's a lot of cameras, 12 cameras on this property anyway.

Speaker 3: 1:59:06

So, yeah, so there's something going on I did want to highlight. And and Maureen talks about, about him not smelling good. And then they have to go shopping. She's got this now with the smell, the alligator shit coming in she has. She consistently tries.

Speaker 3: 1:59:28

A friend of mine used to say you can pour sugar on shit that ain't gonna make it smell no sweeter. And to me Maureen pours sugar on the shit of her life and I really mean it like that, like I'm not trying to be whatever, but like she is constantly trying to make something look a little prettier, seem a little nicer, smell a little better. She goes, she's trying to improve herself. Like I think in her version, the minute she said she was doing these candles, I was like, right, the pottery class the candles. Like she's trying to like take whatever is here, like mold it into some sort of decent life she could feel good about. Um, so anyway that that that stood out to me as, whatever her story is up to this point, she just she just wants shit to be kind of nice for a minute, kind of things. Just that's the vibe I get from maureen. Can we just have peace?

Speaker 2: 2:00:28

yeah, yeah, for sure, um and uh, yeah, I mean, who knows, sometimes when people you know you doesn't know what misophonia is. It's a condition where you have like a real. Some people get really irritated by certain sounds. A lot of people have repetitive sounds, like a kid bouncing a basketball nearby or someone clicking a pen cap over and over. I think like it'll make people fucking crazy. It's a thing, and it's many things are a thing if you do the work and you realize, uh, but maybe there's a smell version of misophonia.

Speaker 3: 2:01:05

I don't know we should probably look it up, but oh, I'm sure there is.

Speaker 2: 2:01:07

Yeah where it's like you have a much more intense reaction to, uh, to smells, than other people. Um, but so you know she, uh, she says you know she, she says you know it's going to sound like you know it's going to sound like some kind of I don't know excuse or something. But I think turns, I think things turned out the way they were supposed to. With you, you know, with your father and me coming here, it's like your daddy can be some kind of hellion, just the booze and the fighting. It's so many neighbors would just like up and leave. Because, you know, just after living near the guy too long, you know, I kid you not more than once leaving furniture and TVs behind just to get away from the son of a bitch quicker.

Speaker 2: 2:01:51

I mean, he had the honor thing. You know, the code or whatever. Just right and wrong. Honor thing, the code or whatever, Just right and wrong. Everything, no grays, no middle, Everything's just black and white. I need all these ideas about how they should live and how I should be and what I could be and what I should be. Yeah, a lot of rules Hard to live with. Hard to live with.

Speaker 3: 2:02:18

Hard to live with. Again, dialogue, I don't know. Maybe you know, maybe I'm just smelling the end here and wanting to appreciate Wayne. She said so much. She said so much and she never quite said anything. Like she never said there was this one time the guy you know, he went next door and he bashed in the guy's window or he told the lady go fuck herself. She didn't tell us any of the story but or what was going on inside the house, like if that's how he was dealing with the neighbors. She just never fully says all of it and I feel like that says so much whether she's still kind of a little scared of him even if he's dead yeah, it doesn't want to like whatever or if it's just she's loved him so much and saw he was broken but just couldn't stay there and get cut by the broken pieces. I don't know what it is, but there's she, she dances around what sounds like it was a very scary and and traumatic, traumatic experience. Yes.

Speaker 2: 2:03:30

Yes, and, and she and I think they have this little quiet moment together, and I think she does feel like she owes him some sort of explanation, and so this is as close as she's going to get. Boss go ahead well.

Speaker 4: 2:03:41

So I was actually going to say that I don't know if I saw it as traumatic and scary as I think both of you do, um, mostly because of her next line, which is when she said that one of the things she said was all of his ideas about how people should act and who I should be and who I could be.

Speaker 2: 2:04:05

And now she said, yeah, what I could be and what I should be, what I could be and what I should be.

Speaker 4: 2:04:09

And then right after that, the next line is you know, you don't got to treat someone like shit. And I the captions say and make them feel bad. I'm pretty sure that the line is to make them feel bad. I'm pretty sure that what she says is you don't got to treat someone like shit to make them feel bad and so to for. To me that revealed wayne senior wasn't necessarily abusing her, even though he seemed violent, or even though he was violent I shouldn't say, see, even though he was violent and even though he was a pain in the ass to the neighbors. I don't think that she felt that Wayne abused her, but he had rules about how people would act and I think that she felt like she wasn't living up to those and that's why she felt like shit.

Speaker 3: 2:04:51

That's really interesting, and I also heard too or that's the message I got from the line at least I didn't quite put it together the way you did and that's fascinating actually you know you don't gotta treat someone like shit and make them feel bad oh, it might be Ant but I got the message you just described, which is interesting because when you said I was like yeah, that's what I felt, that's what I heard, but I didn't hear you just described, which is interesting, because when you said it I was like, yeah, that's what I felt, that's what I heard, but I didn't hear it.

Speaker 4: 2:05:20

I felt it, and you know I what's the word I'm looking for here Cross-examined. Maybe it wasn't that it was adversarial, but definitely Castleton, I know that I gave you some shit in the beginning of the show where I was like, oh well, you see people this way and so then you see their actions this way, and one of the things that I like to be really, really careful about is that Maureen reminds me a lot of my mom Not the candles, because Kathy's not sure.

Speaker 2: 2:05:48

So we change it once we know the person. No, no no. Thank you everybody, thanks for listening today. God, I wish we had more time.

Speaker 3: 2:05:57

I think we should try to win the episode. I mean, that's not going to happen, it'll never happen.

Speaker 2: 2:06:02

Never happen.

Speaker 4: 2:06:04

So that's why I try to focus so closely on her actions, on Maureen's actions.

Speaker 4: 2:06:08

On her words and not this kind of like, whatever resentment I might have had with my mom, Because what I actually do pick up from Maureen's character is that she is extremely sensitive. She comes across as being sort of vulgar in body and she's like, oh, if he's not touching my tits, like like she'll make the joke. But also she seems extremely sensitive, Like things bother her a lot. You were talking about the noises. We have a test for Kathy's Christmas presents where I need to feel the material to make sure that it doesn't have cooties, because if it has cooties, kathy can't touch it yeah, those are.

Speaker 2: 2:06:47

Those are like lit clinicals they're called sensory issues.

Speaker 3: 2:06:50

That's what they call that sensory. You've talked about that before.

Speaker 2: 2:06:52

Yeah and and um.

Speaker 4: 2:06:54

There's a term for that also um, oh god it's like just a tactile sort of thing, yeah, but sensory issues is the? Is the?

Speaker 2: 2:07:00

overall, I actually get the word, but it's a lot of kids have this, and so it's like when kids have a seam in their socks or something like that one of my kids shirts. I don't, yeah, exactly the tags on shirts are like a huge color.

Speaker 4: 2:07:13

I still rip the tags off my shirts. I had to. I mean, that's the thing I can't.

Speaker 2: 2:07:16

What's the name of it? Oh god, okay, yeah, keep going, boss. I'm gonna look it up while we sit.

Speaker 4: 2:07:20

I made kathy cut the um feet off of the footie pajamas. I was like I don't know what the fuck you people are doing with this shit. My feet are sweating. This is this is torture interesting you got to cut this shit off. So there is a part of what I am seeing in Maureen's character is she was sensitive to Wayne senior's criticism. She felt like she wasn't living up.

Speaker 4: 2:07:43

She didn't really know what she was doing. She felt overwhelmed, like I don't think that Wayne senior was, by any stretch of the imagination, a good partner.

Speaker 4: 2:07:54

Like. It seems like, if anything, he was a pretty decent dad to wayne in a lot of ways, but I wouldn't give him a lot more than that. I am not unsympathetic to what maureen was going through. I sort of understand where she's coming from. I just didn't see her as being like a battered wife in the way that maybe we thought could happen. In the last episode we said like yeah is there a possibility that Wayne beat Maureen?

Speaker 4: 2:08:19

I don't think that Wayne Sr's code, the one that he passed along to Wayne, would allow for him to do this. You know what?

Speaker 3: 2:08:24

That's a really interesting and valid point. Yeah, I think you're right that if and she even speaks to the code, and I think she would speak to his code differently if it's like, oh, mr code, but then he would come beat the shit out of like I think you're onto something there that's a really interesting.

Speaker 2: 2:08:43

I want to just gently and kindly and with a lot of love, push back against that because, um, so fucking what? If he didn't lay hand on her? She could have been. She could have been. You know how many tears of fucking terror and misery people can live in with a husband who doesn't beat on them physically. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 2:09:03

Like yeah, yeah like she could have been anywhere on that spectrum and it seems pretty clear to me that like it was traumatic. Yeah, boy, it's a big relief that he didn't actually beat her, okay wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 3: 2:09:15

But no, no, no, wait, hold on a sec, she ran from him.

Speaker 2: 2:09:19

She ran away from him to escape him. We're getting her version of it here. We don't have him. Wayne Sr's not here to refute it or be like oh, give me a fucking break, we don't have that version. We have her version from her own mouth, where it was really hard and she felt oppressed in some way and it was something that she, you see, that she escaped from in her mind.

Speaker 4: 2:09:41

But she didn't run away from Wayne Sr. She ran away from her family, like she didn't take the kids and flee. She had to leave the situation. The situation included her kids, and this is in the same way that she said that Wayne grabbed a hammer and went outside and busted his face open Like there was. She was unable to exist in this situation. Regardless of it, I think that we're getting a little bit confused.

Speaker 2: 2:10:13

We're talking about two separate issues. Her abandoning her child is one thing. Confused, we're talking about two separate issues. Her abandoning her child is one thing. Her abandon her, saving herself from a uh relationship that she can't uh stand is a totally different thing. And, yes, she, the the leaving the relationship was also met with the fact that, uh, I'm saying somehow, I think, in her mind listen, this isn't in the script, but I'm like if she had tried to take Wayne, she was going to die, little Wayne.

Speaker 2: 2:10:41

Wait, wait, wait wait, you think that, wayne.

Speaker 4: 2:10:43

Sr would have killed her if she had taken her kids.

Speaker 2: 2:10:45

It seemed like that to me, Like it seemed like she could not have taken little Wayne Could not have. See, there's a lot that would have been a rule that he could not break. Fine, you want to leave me, but you don't take my kid.

Speaker 3: 2:10:55

I don't think we have any indication of that.

Speaker 4: 2:11:00

The small amount of what we saw with Wayne Sr and what we know about what he taught Wayne Jr. That does not seem fitting in my understanding of his code whatsoever.

Speaker 1: 2:11:12

Wow, I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible, but I wouldn't say I, I, I agree, I can, it's.

Speaker 3: 2:11:22

It's like can we imagine it's not the same thing? But I wish, like could we imagine wayne hauling off and belting dell because she said something insulting to his mother and belting Del because she said something insulting to his mother? Like I can't, yeah.

Speaker 4: 2:11:39

I cannot.

Speaker 3: 2:11:41

I can see a lot of shit. I can see him being mad. I can see him saying something that's uncons but like do I the code seems so wired in. I'm kind of with Boss on that, like- yeah.

Speaker 4: 2:11:53

And yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:11:54

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 2:11:56

I will fully admit that I-.

Speaker 2: 2:11:58

Don't listen to women. Whatever we do, let's make sure wait, wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 4: 2:12:03

But she never said that he would kill her. You were. No, no, no, no.

Speaker 2: 2:12:06

She never said it, but she said we hear her say it was it was. He had all these rules. It was hard to live with. Yeah, uh, the boozing and the fighting. Your daddy gave me some kind of hellion. People in the neighborhood would just up and leave after living near the guy too long and she's his wife More than once leaving furniture to get away from the son of a bitch quicker. He had the honor thing no grays, no middle, everything's black and white. And he had all these ideas, again similar to how we've taken umbrage with organized religion. He had all these ideas about how they should live, yes, and how I should be and what I could be and what I should be. A lot of rules Hard to live with. You don't got to treat with someone like shit and make them feel bad. Feel bad. There's no doubt in my mind that, whether he laid a finger on her or not, but that she was in a brutal amount of trauma and and fear and and anxiety. She she was, sounds like she was completely shut down.

Speaker 3: 2:13:09

I think I think that can be, I think that could be true, but I guess I'll speak to the way you just presented that idea, you're whether or not he laid a hand on her. That is a big fucking distinction for me.

Speaker 2: 2:13:22

Yeah, I know, but it's not the only distinction. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no no, no, like big enough that you're like.

Speaker 3: 2:13:33

But whether or not like, it's to me that's like I was angry with somebody or I shot somebody. They were scared because they thought I was going to finish killing them, because they thought that my yelling was dangerous you're advocating my side of this. No, no, no you are because I'm saying no that's a huge thing.

Speaker 2: 2:13:51

That's a non-starter, but if the if it's not, that doesn't diminish any everything, but it does but it's a different thing.

Speaker 3: 2:13:59

I don't diminish, because I think that means more, less, and I think we can bring in psychologists for that, but I will stand by that. I'm having a totally different conversation with wayne or any other man about whether the people in his life found him frightening because of his behavior or whatnot, or whether he was physically battering and assaulting the people who live in his home, like I think that has. Like I think we have to create a difference there. And it's funny because I had a conversation with somebody not well, well, it's a social media conversation, but where people after um, the Superbowl for those unfamiliar who don't pay attention to such things there's a very famous and particularly popular now because he uh, is dating Taylor Swift football player named Travis Kelsey and during the Superbowl he flipped his lid over the details of the game which aren't relevant to what I'm about to speak to, and he started yelling at his coach who's in his 60s. The coach is in his 60s, big dude in his 60s, been a coach for years and he yelled at his coach. He ended up bumping into his coach as he was yelling at his coach. It was a bad look Like he looked like a raving lunatic and I don't think anyone disagrees with that, including him.

Speaker 3: 2:15:25

And someone made the point and it really bothered me because I was seeing it repeatedly that Taylor Swift should leave him because if that's the way he behaves like, imagine what he'll do to her. And I was like nope, time out, time the fuck out. We are not going to accuse this man of and, frankly, not even bother accusing him. Just decide this man is a fucking wife beater because he yelled at his coach during the Super Bowl. We have to be able to have a more nuanced conversation if we are going to take, for example, domestic violence seriously. A call that says I just got punched in the face and I just got yelled at can't be the same call. It doesn't mean that the I just got yelled at call should be ignored or it's no big deal, but it has to be a difference.

Speaker 2: 2:16:28

It is a difference. It sounds like you're downplaying the non-physical amount of domestic violence that's out there, or the threat and terror of it all. There are millions of women being held hostage by their husbands right now and the guys have never laid a finger on them in that way. But there is violence in the relationship and abuse is not just limited to physical abuse. It's not. That's not what I said.

Speaker 3: 2:17:05

I didn't say it's limited.

Speaker 2: 2:17:06

I just I think I don't want to be downplaying.

Speaker 3: 2:17:08

I'm just saying, having been in situations where I was scared and having been in situations where I was physically assaulted, one felt one way and one felt another way and there's a difference between those feelings. I'm not saying that you can't be terrorized, I'm not. That's what terror is, right. You blow up a building 100 miles from here and I'm scared over here, like I get. That that's what terror is, but I just, I don't know, maybe I'm off base, I'm curious what boss thinks. But I think it's incredibly, it's to me, it's almost taking the issue. It's not almost for me, it's taking the issue more seriously, not to just throw it all in a big old bucket of like you create discomfort and to say wait a minute, there's, there's there's hitting there's gaslighting, there's this, and being clear about these are different things.

Speaker 3: 2:18:00

none of them are good, but we can't just call them all the same thing, it is all abuse.

Speaker 2: 2:18:09

It is all abuse. You're right that the highest tier is the physical tier, but I just want to make sure we're not downplaying anything south of that. Any other step of it is still trauma and is still anxiety and still terror for the person involved and it's serious. So I guess we're not saying it's, I'm not, I don't know. We're probably saying the same thing, but if you have the whole pie chart and half of it is people who are not being abused at all, right, once you're on the side where people are being abused, it's serious, and it's serious whether they're being hit or not being hit. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 3: 2:18:55

Oh yeah, I'm not saying it's not. Well, let me ask a question. Does it to either of you actually? Does it feel to you when I say whoa, whoa, whoa, we can't put this all in one bucket? Does it seem like? Does it come across as cause? It's actually maybe informative?

Speaker 4: 2:19:16

for me, is like not important because I'm saying it's different yeah, so I, oddly enough, am now in the position of being in the middle of both of you guys I think I understand what both of you are saying.

Speaker 4: 2:19:32

I would definitely agree that emotional, mental, verbal forms of abuse are remedied in a different way than physical abuse, and that is not to say that one of them is less significant or less severe. It is just to say that they are dealt with in different ways, because once somebody hits you, they are more likely to kill you. I'm not saying that they won't kill you if they've only threatened you or only said you can't have your baby cat or anything else.

Speaker 4: 2:20:04

I'm not saying that those people are unlikely to murder their partner. I'm saying that once they start hitting you, there is a the chance of you being murdered by that person have just shot up I don't want to say astronomically, but it's pretty fucking hard, Like if he chokes you he will kill you. That's a fact, Like that's what statistics say. So I understand this. You know how we respond to.

Speaker 4: 2:20:30

Each one of those needs to be different, because they require because, they are different situations and because we want to make sure that people who are in abusive situations get out as quickly and as safely as possible, so sort of addressing that. I don't think one is better or worse or more significant or more severe or anything else. I will say I don't know if I don't know if the issue with Maureen is that she was terrified for her life and she felt like Wayne Sr was going to destroy her. What I kept thinking to myself is she wasn't able to tolerate the situation, and not being able to tolerate something is something that my siblings and I have very much associated with our mom. She can't tolerate it, whatever it is. She can't tolerate this.

Speaker 4: 2:21:22

Like there are some things where it she used to tell us, like when she, when she was cooking on holidays, like sometimes we'd all be in the kitchen and like talking or around, and she'd say everybody get out of the kitchen. I can't tolerate it. Like there wasn't anything bad in that situation, we weren't breaking shit, it's just that we were around and she couldn't tolerate it. Like it was this level of sensitivity, and so there's a part of me that wonders how much of what Maureen was experiencing was that her husband was a fucking hothead who would beat people up and had rules about how she should be acting and what she should be doing, and that's not okay. Like by the way, don't have rules for your partner.

Speaker 4: 2:22:02

You could say I expect my partner to do these things, but you can't have rules about who they are, yeah, not a dictatorship like that. Yeah, no that's not, absolutely not okay, but I think a lot of this was what Maureen was able to tolerate, and what she couldn't tolerate was living in that house with Wayne Sr and her two kids and do things the way that she felt she was being required. You don't got to treat someone like shit and make them feel bad.

Speaker 2: 2:22:39

Like Calvin. This is a terrible way to end this and she's awful at this, but she is trying to give Wayne some explanation. She says like Calvin, he can be like yeah, he can be like whatever, but he lets me be who I want to be, do what I want, just so long as my ass don't get too big. Now, okay, that is the actual dialogue. I want to ask you guys a question and I want just like, if possible, like you're on the stand and you can give me just one answer. Okay, I'm going to start with Coach. Coach, hearing this from Maureen and taking the children out of it. Do you think that she's justified in having left Wayne's father understanding what you know about? Okay, Now, and boss.

Speaker 4: 2:23:34

How about you? Absolutely. You're justified in leaving a romantic partnership whenever you want to, regardless of the reason.

Speaker 2: 2:23:39

Okay, now that you heard this boss, we'll go to you first. Is she justified in having left her kids? Nope, okay, and coach what about you?

Speaker 3: 2:23:55

I'd say no, and then I'd get in trouble for trying to explain my answer when I was supposed to say yes or no. But I'd say, if you're just going to force me to yes or no, that's it. Then no. If it was bad enough for you to leave, then you got to get your kid out the last one.

Speaker 2: 2:24:13

Okay, last one, boss, we'll go to you first. Um, if, if she had tried to take the two boys with her and calvin, do you imagine that what, in whatever world you know, whatever version of this, wayne senior would have let that eventuality happen without any repercussions?

Speaker 4: 2:24:30

yes he would have let them all go so what I am imagining and I know that you said not to no, it's okay.

Speaker 2: 2:24:39

It's fine, I just wanted to get an actual. You actually can imagine that they could have gotten away with taking the boys and leaving and taking the car taking the boys with Calvin.

Speaker 4: 2:24:48

I think if she took the car and left and went to Florida and then filed for divorce and they went through divorce proceedings and they worked out a custody arrangement. He would have gone along with whatever the court said.

Speaker 2: 2:24:59

Coach.

Speaker 3: 2:25:02

Do I say, say the question again.

Speaker 2: 2:25:04

I want to make sure I'm answering If Maureen had taken both, both boys and left with Calvin in the car and driven away, would Wayne senior have let them do that without repercussions?

Speaker 3: 2:25:18

I lean toward yes and if you want I can, I can answer why I think that yeah, please, Because I think the guy who would have hunted them down because they took his kids would hunt them down because they took his car. But, but, but, but. But that is my thinking as we were just going through actually I didn't know you were going to ask that quite that way, but I thought, huh, I mean a guy who's cold Dude. You left town with my wife and my car, so that's plenty of reason to come whoop your ass. Anyway, Like I don't see the boys being taken, I think it's as likely that Calvin was like I want your ass, I don't want those motherfuckers.

Speaker 4: 2:26:10

Yes, I firmly believe that if Maureen and Calvin had taken the boys, wayne senior would have pursued them legally. But that would have been you took my kids. We need to have a shared custody. I am, I am allowed to see my children.

Speaker 2: 2:26:30

Okay, and, and, and I mean maybe he wouldn't have even legal. But I guess, yeah, I don't, I don't you may have a case, because he did try to pursue when he got sick. He did try to pursue legal ramifications or legal recourse for his job and he got fucked, um, and everybody knows he got fucked and whatever.

Speaker 2: 2:26:49

So that indicates that maybe he does respect the, the uh law, you, whatever law and order there is. I listen, I, I hear you guys say that and it makes me think uh, I haven't been enough of a mass hole here on the show, like for you, to understand what the fuck a mass hole would do. I'm just like I there's no.

Speaker 3: 2:27:11

There is no, then why not the?

Speaker 2: 2:27:13

car we're going to. We may be able to, um, uh, I may be able to get a specific answer for this, and I'll tell you how later. I'm not going to say, but I might actually have an actual answer to this from the horse's mouth, so to speak. But I think there's no prayer in the world that if she took his son away, he doesn't come after him. I just don't.

Speaker 4: 2:27:37

But expand on that. Come out, come after them. How?

Speaker 3: 2:27:40

and do what Right?

Speaker 2: 2:27:41

Take his boy back you, fine, you want to take my wife? Fine, I don't need her. She said, would you I? You want to take the car? Go ahead, take the car. It's just a fucking car. Put you in the ground.

Speaker 4: 2:27:54

What about? His coat gives you the indication that that is true.

Speaker 2: 2:27:57

I guess, just growing up in New England and knowing how people feel about their sons, and I just I don't know, I just don't. I have a question about the whole son thing Hard-ass. Irish value stuff. I don't know man. It feels absolutely unthinkable to me that he would Almost like Lucetti, where you're like no, you can take my daughter. Are you fucking crazy? I'll drive as much of a piece of shit as I am and as fucked up as I am. That is where the line is. You have my girl?

Speaker 4: 2:28:28

I will fucking kill you sorry, coach, I don't mean to cut you off, but what I need to say is that I think the very unique, very unique Jesus christ, my grandmother, would be rolling in the grave if she hadn't donated her body to science. The unique thing about wayne senior and his code is not that it is based in this idea of like don't fuck with my shit, don't fuck with me, don't blah, blah, blah, whatever else. Wayne never hits when somebody hits him, it way Wayne didn't go to that guy's garage or whatever and bust out the window and then beat his ass. He let him beat his ass. Wayne got his ass beat Like.

Speaker 4: 2:29:04

What the code says is there are gaps in our justice system and you need to fill them. If you see the kid getting beat up in the hallway, you beat the kid with a trumpet. It is violent, it is severe, it is harsh, but it is based on the idea of justice. So I don't think that Wayne senior would say like I own my son and you can't take him away from me. I think that he would. I, I do not believe that. I absolutely do not believe that, because he owned the car and morning was his wife and if he was going to have that level of ownership, I think that it would have bled through those other things, but he didn't, he let them go.

Speaker 2: 2:29:37

He let them go. He knew where they were.

Speaker 3: 2:29:39

But you're saying it almost like it's self-evident, like, oh, but no, those weren't as important because he didn't do it. But that's all the evidence we have.

Speaker 2: 2:29:45

A guy left with his wife and his car.

Speaker 3: 2:29:48

But I'm saying it's damn near a country song. The dude left with wife and his car and he ain't gonna do nothing. So why do we believe that he's going to kill the man If they took that boy and put them in the backseat?

Speaker 2: 2:30:00

I'm going to toss this into the mix. I know there are buttercups. I know there are people out there who are like hearing this and thinking that you two are like I. Just I, just I know I have some backup out there where it's like it changes.

Speaker 3: 2:30:17

If it's his child. It just changes everything.

Speaker 2: 2:30:18

I don't think he's going to hit Maureen, but I think he's going to go kill Calvin. If that happens, he'll blame Calvin. It's a very old-school-y stupid thing. He'll leave Maureen on the side of the road, but he's got to know.

Speaker 3: 2:30:30

Calvin wants the car and the woman. Calvin wants his fucking kid.

Speaker 2: 2:30:35

He's going gonna kill somebody Of the things.

Speaker 3: 2:30:37

The thing that Calvin gives the least of a fuck about, if they all go, is the kids. Fuck yeah. So I just don't get why, again, a guy who doesn't fucking do that to you for his wife or his car is suddenly gonna kill you over his child. I wanna toss this into the mix real quick before we go further, because there's some stuff I can remember too that we can bring in. How come the younger son is Wayne Jr?

Speaker 2: 2:31:08

Oh yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's an excellent point.

Speaker 4: 2:31:12

There's a story there.

Speaker 3: 2:31:13

There's a story there. I don't know what to tell you, but there's a story there. There's a story there. I don't know what to tell you, but there's a story there. If you're in the junior blah, blah, blah business you don't wait until you have a second son. So what's that all about?

Speaker 2: 2:31:24

So maybe it's not his son, not Wayne's son, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 2:31:27

I don't know, maybe it's not his son.

Speaker 2: 2:31:28

Maybe they weren't together at that point, maybe, whatever. Why is Wayne Jr? Just nobody likes Maureen.

Speaker 3: 2:31:34

I'm saying I don't like her. They can both be their kids.

Speaker 2: 2:31:37

I don't know. But I'm saying something is the sort of normal line You're like, mr. Hernandez the landlord. A lot of guys came in and out of there. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't.

Speaker 3: 2:31:49

I'm saying, even if that's his son why is the older son not Wayne Jr?

Speaker 2: 2:31:55

We never talk over each other and this is the older son, not Wayne Jr. We never talk over each other, and this is the first time in like a year we've like been yelling at each other.

Speaker 4: 2:32:01

I hope it's been a wonderful experience for everyone listening. I did not hear Coach disparage Maureen whatsoever for having children with two different men, but it is an interesting thing to consider. If she left both of her sons with a man who is the father to only one of them, that would be a different thing. I think also Castleton, in the same way that I was like I know the kind of person that Coach Beard is, like the Northside Chicago Irish dude, I fucking know him. I know this character.

Speaker 4: 2:32:39

I think that you were doing that with wayne senior and I understand that yeah but I think that that is overriding the way in which his code does not fit with other mass holes code like, because you said this is different. You said that he operates in a different level. He is supposed to be a kind of like violent fucking bringer of justice to all these assholes who do whatever the fuck they want and they drive their goddamn trucks through the fucking intersection even though it wasn't their fucking turn. I don't think that he would be the asshole going through the intersection. He would be you saying what the fuck do you think you're doing?

Speaker 2: 2:33:18

Those aren't the rules which is why I think these guys are more common than you think. That's all I'm saying. Like, wait, I know this is a fictional character, but there's a reason. He's very relatable and at least in this, in this neck of the woods, like my mechanic down the street is this guy and I keep him real close because I know like if the end comes, he'll be my first call, because I just know how he is. He's like he would just be this guy.

Speaker 3: 2:33:45

These guys are a little more confident up here. I actually want to hear more about this guy. I really do. I'm going to toss this into the mix. If Wayne Sr is essentially mass hole one, right Like he's essentially an archetype of this mass hole type guy character right, Hold on, hold on, hold on, Let me. If he is, why do the people move?

Speaker 1: 2:34:15

No, no, no no. I was going to say he's past mass hole.

Speaker 2: 2:34:18

I'm saying, like I know what mass hole generally means, like people, someone from massachusetts who's an asshole which is basically everybody in massachusetts from if you're in any other neighboring state but but um, this is a different thing, this is a, this is a unique thing, that what this guy is. And I, I listen, I just, I just don't. So I want to tell me what is that thing like. Tell me, because I, this is a unique thing, that what this guy is. And I listen, I just, I just don't.

Speaker 3: 2:34:39

So I want to tell me what is that thing Like tell me, because I again I'm. I'm saying I, I know. I mean we can use a story Everybody knows. So we don't get into whatever. Think about if anybody who's seen what's love got to do with it, right?

Speaker 3: 2:34:54

So tina, tina turner, ike turner, she takes off. You know, I'm gonna get on this motherfucking bus and run this guy's fucking crazy. He's gonna kill a whole bunch of us, right? And so then he finds out they're on this bus and he goes and he gets his kids, he gets his wife and he throws them in. And I don't know what the fuck's the matter with you. Right to me that all is in line. He's this abusive guy. They are possessions. You don't make decisions without me. You don't get to go away. You'll be sitting here and be here until I'm ready to beat you again. Like it all lines up. I'm saying, ike turner, if tina hadn't taken the kids with her, ike turner wasn't gonna be like oh well, fuck it, get on your bus, as long as I got my kids. He's like no, motherfuckers, don't do shit. Until I say do shit. That's it, that's who I am. So I'm trying to understand why. Wayne senior.

Speaker 2: 2:35:46

There's a cultural difference there.

Speaker 3: 2:35:56

No, I'm not doubting there is, but what I can say is the way you're describing it hasn't illuminated for me how we get from a guy who gets periodic postcards of his wife and his car with this other dude is also the dude who, if you take his son with them and he's now with his mom in Florida, is going to kill everybody because now you don't fuck around with my son. Was he really into child rearing like that?

Speaker 2: 2:36:26

I don't get it. He didn't have to, but he did. My dad stuck around.

Speaker 3: 2:36:31

I don't see that as consistent and I guess that's where we're diverging. I don't see it could happen, anything could happen, but I don't see how the other facts of this case lead to that conclusion Okay, and listen, we're going to find out.

Speaker 2: 2:36:51

I am one degree of separation from Sean Simmons, the creator of Wayne. I have his email address. I'm going to reach out to him. I'm going to see if I can get a concrete answer about that. But yeah, these are all. These are all. My God, we, this. I'm going to need a spa day after this, after this episode.

Speaker 4: 2:37:19

You're not able to tolerate it.

Speaker 2: 2:37:24

I know it's just a lot. It's a lot. Listen, you think you think people are like-minded or we come at it from this, from similar positions, and and there's all these different, there's just different tiers. It's fascinating See how everybody lines up on all these different issues's just different tiers. It's fascinating to see how everybody lines up on all these different issues. Um, yeah, no, I just uh, we're gonna learn more. I really, I really really wanted to get deeper into this episode. Uh, thanks for uh stopping me from accomplishing that. Um, but, uh, I think we, we, we took a bite out of it, and God, there's so much more. For people who have already watched it, they know what's coming. For people who are just listening and haven't seen this episode, it's a humdinger. So we'll leave it there for today. Coach, where can people find you if they want to find you?

Speaker 3: 2:38:13

I'm going to switch up on you today and I'm going to let you know that you can find me at AlignPcom. That's our company site and I want you to check out the speaker page. I want you to check out what we do, because I'm about the business of getting out in the world and working with businesses and individuals and teams and all the things to help you work in an aligned way and have a better experience, and all the things to help you work in an aligned way and have a better experience. So you need a speaker, you need somebody to come in and facilitate, look up, coach.

Speaker 2: 2:38:48

AlignPcom Love it. What about you, boss?

Speaker 4: 2:38:50

You can find me at Blue Sky, which is Dumley Chambers. Also on threads, which is Emily Chambers.31. Uh, I warned everybody the other night but I am starting another. You're the worst rewatch, so sorry about that. There's gonna be a lot of a lot of threading, a lot of emotions, a lot of talking about how pretty gretchen cutler's hair is, um, and then maybe writing about it at the antagonist, which is antagonist, blogcom.

Speaker 2: 2:39:21

Yeah, we are. Yeah, okay, we will pick this up. We will pick this up next time.

Speaker 4: 2:39:27

No, no, no, it's amazing. No, no, no it's just beaten the life out of you.

Speaker 2: 2:39:33

I, I, I, man, there's just a lot to think about, a lot to think about and how and how we all process uh, this, this information. Um, I, I always say, um, support your local libraries. In the written word, I started adding last time raise better boys. Um, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is. Um, we're going to promote this event. Uh, it's on the. Uh. Uh, we have a relationship with an author named Rick Hansen.

Speaker 2: 2:40:01

I don't know if people have ever read Rick Change your brain, change your life. He's a neuropsychologist to bestselling New York Times author, and he's a wonderful man who has also identified a lot of what we talked about, about men in society and how to change these things. He is affiliated with some people who are running a conference which is called the Power of Male Compassion, and so I'm going to put the links in the in the description. It's a free, it's just a free conference of a lot of thought leaders in the, in the space of mindfulness, who have, who have identified like men need some resources. So this is like no cost, no problem. So this is like no cost, no problem. It's a way for people to reach out and maybe learn something, and I will list this in the description and I'll put it on the community site for anyone interested. We've got to start taking steps to help this stuff. And yeah, just want to add that because we have there's a lot, there's lots of it's a lot, it's a lot.

Speaker 2: 2:41:23

I'm dying to ask Sean Simmons about, about that, that one question. I'm dying, dying to find out what his take on that would be Okay. Thank you everybody. Thank you for thank you for listening, thanks for joining us today. We'll be back next time with part 2 of Wayne, episode 9. Thought we was friends and until next time we are Richmond till we die die die.

Speaker 2: 2:41:54

I couldn't.

Speaker 3: 2:41:57

I was letting the wheels go. I don't prepare those. They have to happen.

Speaker 2: 2:42:00

They have to just come.

Speaker 3: 2:42:01

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:42:03

Okay, all right, thanks everybody. We'll see you next time.