The Response Force Multiplier
Welcome to The Response Force Multiplier, the OSRL Podcast. On The Response Force Multiplier, we explore all aspects of emergency planning and response, through conversations with compelling experts and thought leaders, providing a fresh take on key issues and cutting-edge techniques in this field. In each episode, we’ll dive into one aspect of emergency planning and response using OSRL’s unique pool of experts and collaborators to gain new insights and to distil these down into actionable tools and techniques for better preparedness and response to crisis incidents and emergencies.
Emergency Response, Crisis Management, Emergency Planning
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The Response Force Multiplier
Mindset Matters: From Red to Blue, Conversation with Martin Fairn from Gazing Performance
In this episode of The Response Force Multiplier, host Emma Smillie dives deep into the power of mindset in high-pressure situations. Joined by Martin Fairn from Gazing Performance, they explore the "Red to Blue" methodology—a practical framework designed to help individuals and teams perform at their best under stress. From the rugby field to the classroom, and even in crisis management, discover how recognising and controlling your mindset can be a game-changer. Learn real-world applications, hear inspiring stories, and find out how this simple yet powerful tool is transforming lives across various sectors. Whether you're in business, education, or emergency response, this episode offers valuable insights into developing mental resilience and achieving peak performance
Please give us ★★★★★, leave a review, and tell your friends about us as each share and like makes a difference.
Hello and welcome to the Response Force Multiplier, a podcast that explores emergency planning and response. On the Response Force Multiplier, we bring together compelling experts and thought leaders to provide a fresh take on key issues and cutting edge techniques in this field. In each episode we'll dive into one aspect and we'll use OSRL's unique pool of experts and collaborators to distill that down into actual tools and techniques for better preparedness and response to incidents and emergencies. My name is Emma Smiley. We are All Spirit Response and this is the Response Force Multiplier.
Speaker 1:In this episode, I sit down with Martin Fern from Gazing Performance to discuss the importance of mindset and mental resilience in high-pressure situations. We dive into the Red to Blue methodology, a practical framework for managing attention and emotions, and explore how it can be applied in various sectors, including education, sports, sports and emergency response. Join us as we unpack the power of mindset and learn how to navigate challenges with greater focus and clarity. Hi, Martin, welcome to the Response Force Multiplier. Really pleased to have you here. It's great to be talking to you after Andy Carus did his Red to Blue podcast a few months ago and now we've got you here from Gazing Performance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fantastic, and I'm delighted to be here as well. Thank you for the invitation and looking forward to the conversation today.
Speaker 1:Could you start with telling us a bit about yourself, your background, how you came to be part of the team that founded Gazing Performance?
Speaker 2:So I'll do a little bit of pre-gazing.
Speaker 2:I spent most of my life playing rugby, so I was at college and then I got a job in sales for a company called Xerox and that's what I did through all my early business career till about 1998, which is when I met with three other partners, originally at Gazing, one of whom I'd worked with at Xerox in the world of training and one of whom is a forensic psychiatrist called Dr Kerry Evans, who some of you who are interested in red to blue and perform under pressure may well have read the book that Kerry wrote about it.
Speaker 2:And then another guy who's a graphic designer and a wonderful guru, if you will like, when it comes to performance and mindset and some of the elements it takes. So we got together and we set up Gazing Performance as a training company and that was where we started in everything from sales and management and leadership in the business sector, but very specifically focusing on the idea of doing well under pressure and very clearly realizing that mindset was a fundamental aspect of that, and that shifted into 2000. So it was quite early to be talking about mindset in anything other than maybe sport or as a mental health challenge. So since then we've really built it and developed it and continue to do that now, as we got to where we are today with Gazing Red to Blue.
Speaker 1:That's a really interesting mix of people there, with a lot of different skills that I guess you all complement each other really, then.
Speaker 2:I think that's the best way of describing it. We used to say it's a bit of an eclectic mix. I mean Kerry would readily say I know absolutely nothing about the world of business. He happened to have played professional football for his country and for a team called oxford united reds. He was a black belt, seventh dan karate, so we had some real specialism around that area.
Speaker 2:I'd spent most of my first 15 years at work in business in different areas of business leadership and the other guy was a trainer. So I think we didn't come at it from a training background. We came at it very much from a performance background across different environments and straight away. That led us to the connection to human beings, recognizing that they're the common factor in most of the areas we look at and also acknowledging the fact that pressure is a factor in how well people are able to do what they do. And sport was an obvious place to go after. But you didn't have to look too hard in the world of business to find different examples of pressure and the impact that had. So that was how we continued to build and develop the programs that we've got and the different approach.
Speaker 1:What position did you play in rugby? Out of interest.
Speaker 2:I was a fullback in those days.
Speaker 1:I was a scrim half.
Speaker 2:Were you? Yeah, very cool. See, they always had a lot to say. They always annoyed everyone else on the field. Yeah, I'm sure that wasn't you.
Speaker 1:No, no, I suspect I was guilty as charged for that one.
Speaker 2:But you can't play a game of rugby without a scrum half. So there you go. You can't, you know you can't.
Speaker 1:So for people that haven't heard of the Rope to Blue methodology, could you just give a brief overview of what it is and how it's used?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So, emma, I know you and Dave and some of the team are really engaged in it and it's been a privilege to work with you all as we got involved in the emergency response work that you do and the role that mindset plays in that, and that's a good place to start. So, if you reflect on three areas and then I'll lead that into Redtonbury, the first one is that, rather than starting a conversation about training or learning or development, actually the conversation starts first about performance. So what does it take to contribute to people being able to do well or whatever they do which is why, by the way, we're happy to have a conversation about sport, as happy as we are to have a conversation in education about with teachers, or about students with exams and all the things that they go through or in business, or, specifically, an emergency response. So you start a conversation about performance. You then look at the notion that there is pressure. Everywhere you tend to have a conversation about performance, it comes from a variety of places. Sometimes the pressure is actually what we create in our own world and what we put on ourselves. And so performance and pressure. And then the question really that led us to Red to Blue was what role does mindset play? And if there's an acknowledgement that mindset, mentality, has a part to play in our ability to do well when the pressure's on, then what could you do to provide a simple, practical, accessible way of describing it, of learning about it? And our real breakthrough, we feel around mindset, is to acknowledge the fact that it's a skill, and so, with that in mind, we developed the idea called Redhead, bluehead, red to Blue. And that's where that came from.
Speaker 2:For those people who have a natural or practical interest in the psychology that sits underneath it, or even, indeed, the neurology associated with brain function, comes from cognitive psychology. Actually, it's not exactly true. Our brains don't only function at one extreme or the other. It's not we're always red or we're always blue, or we're either one or the other. It's more that there's a lot of movement. We're pretty fluid in the way we react to situations, and red to blue just gives you a practical framework for locating where your attention is at any moment in time.
Speaker 2:The skill we develop, red to blue at its overview level, is really providing you with a practical way of going.
Speaker 2:Look, the first job is to recognize where your attention is, because actually our energy tends to be drawn to where our attention might be, particularly in response to difficult moments and challenging scenarios. And if that's the case, then, once you recognize where your attention is, the question is is it in a useful area, is it focused on the next job or whatever your job might be, or is it diverted and distracted by things you can't control or by situations that you're dealing with that feel uncomfortable? If that's the case, then you're going to accept the fact that your attention is diverted and the next bit is to choose where would be helpful to put your attention for a more useful outcome, more useful response to the situation. So, really, that notion of a simple framework, accessible, easy to understand, very practical to do. It gives you the three stages of recognizing where your attention is, acknowledging the fact that it is your attention it's not the situation or the referee, as you scrum halves use, always used to blame. But then about choosing where you place your attention. So recognize, accept and choose.
Speaker 1:So one of the questions I always get asked actually is why red and why blue, why those two colors?
Speaker 2:It's a good question because actually there are one or two slightly confusing aspects out in the world of mindset at the moment. There's a zones of regulation, for example, that's being deployed within education that tries to attribute emotions to colors so that they're connecting. The quick answer is that colors are easily memorable. They bring a sense of recollection to the process.
Speaker 2:When you think about red versus blue, naturally there is a level of unhelpful emotional heat associated with your attention being distracted, which is why we leaned towards redheads, not because there's no emotion on the blue side. Actually, you will know when things are going well, when you're doing well, when you're focused, when you've got the intensity in the right place. There's plenty of emotion in that place, particularly when things matter. But actually the redhead really indicates that it's unhelpful, somewhat misdirected emotional heat which is captured best by the red side versus the blue, which captures a calmer, clearer feeling of being focused, in control, clear about the scenario and most aware of what the helpful response should be. People often relate it to heat versus water ice, and that can be quite helpful. In a way, I guess the thing, emma is it's to do with image, it's the mental nature of the images, and that's why redhead versus bluehead is quite helpful, everyone goes. Yeah, I get that.
Speaker 1:It makes sense. I think my children have been doing the zones of regulation because we now have a discussion about the different colours and I always say, oh look, it's really simple, you only need two, actually, and there's a green and a yellow and they throw all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:But you know what? A really nice thing about it and I'm getting told this more by teachers that we work with in education is what they find with other aspects that are introduced around mindset and other ways of trying to deal with some of the mental health challenge that we're facing just broadly across the world and certainly in education, is that what Red to Blue doesn't do is pigeonhole you or label you as being one thing or the other. It really provides you with that fluidity that is more representative of how we function as human beings. Sometimes our attention is diverted and distracted and not in a helpful place, and other times it's focused on task and we're doing what we want to do or what we know matters in that particular situation. I think, without judgment and that's probably the thing that I often get asked about with athletes or in school that Red to Blue comes without judgment, and maybe that's the thing because we live in a world that is full of judgment right now, and maybe that's helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Actually, your work with education really fascinates me.
Speaker 2:It'd be great if you could talk a little bit more about how you've been working with schools, humans and how well humans adapted to the scenario of the situation. So that's why we did some early work in education, that's why we've always been able to take what we do into different sectors in business and it's why sports has been an obvious place for us. Education to me. If you said to me what would we really really like to do with Red Taboo? It would be to deploy it in the education sector across the world, for two reasons. One is we always knew mental health has existed. Everybody knew.
Speaker 2:If I go back to where I was born, everyone's talked about mental health, but with quite a.
Speaker 2:It's a problem that needs fixing approach to it, and so we're now facing in the world this mental health challenge and the level of anxiety seems to have gone up significantly. Whether we think that's true or not, it's certainly what the young people are experiencing. So I think in the education sector, both for the teachers and all the students, we're seeing mindset as being a factor that needs embracing, needs a simple, practical way of developing it, both for the teachers and for the students. And so we're finding, once we introduce Red to Blue, much like we've done with you and Dave and the team at Avanza or Response. It's then handing it over to them and say they, they know the children, they know the education environment, let's see how you bring red to blue to life in that environment. So, without making it something separate, just allowing them to integrate into the teaching they do, into the day-to-day lives that they have as teachers and, specifically, students with no age limit, by the way- no, I know this very well with my four-year-old.
Speaker 2:Even she resonated with the red and the blue head, absolutely I have a feeling that what we may have done over the last recent years is removed. Some of the empowerment to think, to be creative, to respond, to not be judged, just to respond in different ways and my view about red to blue is one of the things that brings back to people is the level of empowerment you get to choose. You get to choose your response, you get to acknowledge when it's a good response, you get to recognize when it's not and you get to choose how long that lasts and where you put your attention. And even at a young developmental age, that notion of you being empowered to choose and being able to acknowledge when actually that's not a helpful response, even as a young person you sort of get that.
Speaker 1:And it must be a trend, because we went to the cinema the other day to see Inside Out 2. If you've seen it, that introduces anxiety into the life of the main character. There's a moment there when I was like this is so red to blue. There's joy talking to anxiety about the circles of control, and there's things we can control, there's things we can't control, and the fact that that is a mainstream film just shows how much something like Red to Blue is needed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I couldn't agree more. We have a vision that says, as you well know, red to Blue for everyone, anywhere at any time, and that says there's 8 billion people who could benefit from it. I'm not naive. I realize how stupid that might sound, but why. I realize how stupid that might sound, but why would it stop us? Why would that try and limit what we do? Because we know how powerful, how practical, how engaging it can be. So we should work to distribute across the world. It's not limited by gender, it's not limited by culture, it's not limited by age and experience, and because much of the work that we do will be through a foundation as we continue to grow, which means that actually, where it might be limited by the financial resources to get access to it, we need to take that barrier away and make sure that Red to Blue gets out into all the places that people, because we're just giving a simple framework and language and tools just to help people deal with the challenges they face and the lifestyle that we've now all got.
Speaker 1:So you're setting up a foundation as well as already set up.
Speaker 2:We've been doing foundation work and we're now building more structure into the foundation with more purpose behind it in terms of distribution and looking to fund it in ways that will get it out into the education system and into the broader areas across the world where there's quite clearly some value in supporting mindset but not a lot of access to resources to help do it.
Speaker 1:So mental health has been seen as a bit of a negative thing, with the stigma around it. What are your thoughts on mental health?
Speaker 2:Well, firstly, pretty much everyone I know is experiencing mental health challenges in some way, either themselves or people around them. The circle seems to have got smaller and smaller. Maybe it's because of the world we're now talking about and acknowledging it, but yet still I suspect it comes with the difficulty of expressing it, of discussing it and to remove some of the stigma associated with really acknowledging that it exists. And I'm not suggesting that Red to Blue is a replacement for mental health support when and where it's needed. Of course that should be in place and there is dramatically more resources needed in that area. But if just generally in the lives that we all face, or at the performance end in sport, or in business, or in education, or in emergency response the things that you deal with if we could just have a simple framework that acknowledges, without judgment, the role that mindset will play in helping us deal with those responses, in building the mental skills, building our mentality, to support everything else that we know we have to get to grips with, then I think that's a major step forward because we're removing the difficulty that comes with complexity, the difficulty that comes with just the fear of having a conversation because it might come with judgment or lack of normalization of a redhead response and the feelings that come with that.
Speaker 2:Here's one of the things that you often hear. You've got to control the controllables. I mean, everyone talks about it at the moment and you go intellectually that's true. Practically, for people with emotional responses, it's really difficult to do. What Red to Blue gives us the space to do is acknowledge that actually I am experiencing something that I can't control, but I do feel anxious associated with that. I am responding to it in an unhelpful way. I've got to acknowledge that, to genuinely accept and free up my attention so I can get it focused on what will be a more useful path forward. That, for me, is the piece that I think that Red to Blue will really provide a pathway to yeah, I get so many uncontrollables these days as well that it's overwhelming, isn't it?
Speaker 2:From controlling your three four-year-old, five-year-old to get them to do what they want, all the way through to the macroeconomic climate. Everything challenges that we're facing, the existential threats that could be really overwhelming for many people. But what the hell do you do mentally to respond to those scenarios? And I'm not saying we got the only answer, but it seems to be a helpful perspective to help people navigate through that.
Speaker 1:It's about developing mental resilience, isn't it a lot of it?
Speaker 2:I think that's the outcome. You just build up a bit of mental toughness and, without judgment, just go. Yeah, you've got some skills now to help you deal with stuff that you've already faced, you're going to face or you're right in the middle of.
Speaker 1:Are there any other sectors that you've worked and you've seen such a really big impact of red to blue in?
Speaker 2:Because people talk about performance and quite naturally veer towards winning and losing and, by the way, that's not just sport. I mean people would view exam achievement as a win versus a loss, if things went well versus not going well. So education, it works there. I think it works in sport. But I also think that we were engaged into the military sector by the British Army, originally with the Gurkhas. We learned a lot in understanding war about the environment, specifically around the Gurkhas, and how they embraced mindset as a community, as a culture, and recognized it as a factor in terms of their ability to perform well as a fighting force of soldiers, both in barracks but also out in the field.
Speaker 2:Where we get distracted and diverted and caught up in stuff we can't control is in the area, in the barracks. So it'd be really good for us to have a simple, practical framework and language for doing that. So the military sector, the critical services when you really look hard and you support the notion that human beings exist in whatever factor it is, then there's an acknowledgement that red to blue could be a practical framework and actually we've learned over the years that there's no need to exclude other things that people find useful. So take meditation, take some of the mindfulness work that is done. If people find some of that mindset support helpful within a broad frame of red to blue, there's no reason why you would want to exclude it, because in the end the goal has to be to make sure people feel able to respond well to the challenging situations they face, to the discomfort, and just make good choices about how long the discomfort lasts and where they put their attention to move forward.
Speaker 1:You work with individuals as well, louis Alexander, for example.
Speaker 2:Louis Alexander is a stormwater of the adventurer explorers, and actually why he's close to our hearts as a business is he's very purpose driven. His story is connected to his grandfather spending 17 years suffering from Alzheimer's, gradually passing away On his deathbed. Louis made a commitment to dedicate his life raising money for Alzheimer's and help find a cure, and that is exactly what he's done. And he's done some crazy things around the world. He's currently swimming the seven oceans, swimming a marathon swim in each of the seven oceans. He ran 17 marathons in 17 days.
Speaker 2:There's just no end to Louis Alexander's sort of desire to commit to raising the money that he said, but to put himself under pressure in such a difficult scenario. So a brilliant ambassador, but equally Adriana Brownlee, who is right now an unbelievable climber. Tomorrow I'm presenting to a business conference about 60 or 70 people who will be listening to us talk about Red to Blue as a framework to deal with the challenges they face, and then they get to listen to Adriana Brownlee describing how she's applied it at 8,500 meters. She's now climbed 13 of the top 14 mountains and she's currently planning the 14th one, which will accelerate her into world records as a real rock star when it comes to that, and a brilliantly humble description of how mindset support has helped her. In words stay alive a half thousand meters incredible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a really impressive individuals definitely yeah, and, by the way, we've got abby pulling. Oh yes, you shift from exploring to sport and abby is a formula one academy race driver. She currently is. The Formula One Academy is a whole female race competition. There is no reason at all why Formula One two, three or four motor racing should be female or male. It's not, it's just human beings driving quick and Abby is determined to forge her way into that pathway and she's currently leading the Formula One Academy and she's really, really been working hard for three years on understanding Red to Blue and how it supports her mentality, either clearing the decks to make sure that her skill as a driver, her decision-making on track and off track that really determines how well she performs. But occasionally she knows that sometimes her mindset might get in the way and the quicker she recognises it, the quicker she acknowledges it and shifts, the better she's going to be able to perform on a race weekend or in a specific race.
Speaker 1:I've got a question here. We didn't ask Is there a specific story or anecdote that really, truly illustrates the power of Red to?
Speaker 2:Blue.
Speaker 2:So there's a couple of examples One in the world of education and I'll share this only because it was shared by the teachers involved in this scenario and it was a very difficult situation with a highly dysregulated, pretty traumatized student that they were trying to get through, that they'd been excluded from a couple of schools, they'd chosen not to engage in education, they'd chosen not to even verbalize how they were feeling, and the teachers involved in this school were genuinely feeling really challenged how to help.
Speaker 2:They thought, well, let's just try talking them through red to blue. And they did that. They went through a couple of sessions and then used the graphical representation that you've seen having yourself the back, really at a very simple level, just to say, look, we're going to talk a little bit about mindset and here's a simple way of expressing it and the opportunity, without necessarily teaching them the cognitive skills associated with it, just to go look, here's a way of reflecting on where you are. And that process led to this student re-engaging in the education discussion, choosing, as a body, dysmorphic, real sutter or anxiety associated with it, choosing to get up and decide their own volition to go to the gym. So they attended class, they went to the gym. And then perhaps the most telling piece was that they made a video wow, somebody with all of that going on making a video.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't even like being filmed for a podcast, so and they just said I'll talk about red to blue and it was. But you know what an amazing job really done by those teachers with that student to give them a pathway through. And then I work with these amazing athletes you've told me to me talk about them and people come with passion sometimes and people come with intent and intensity and everything that you grow up with as part of your personality and characteristic. And there's a really terrific young golfer we work with and she's been challenged in the area of wanting to win everything she does from the age of about one. Apparently. If I had a mom and dad on here now, they would say the same thing, and that translates into incredibly high expectations of herself now as a 17 year old. And that's not just on the golf course, but that's how it manifests itself in, you know, playing for your country and competing in high level competitions.
Speaker 2:And what is learning now is the acknowledgement that the redhead response is hers, that it is fine, it doesn't need to come with judgment, but it is in fact, unhelpful when those moments occur, and she's got this brilliant way of saying as soon as the ball has left my club, it's outside my control, so I only now have to manage my response to that situation and acknowledging the highly emotional response sometimes comes with something that is not what you expected or wanted or planned, and then being able to then acknowledge that and reset where you put your attention. In her world, in Ibby's world, that's about refocusing on the next shot, the next decision, all the things that go with that, and then she's taken that through into her exams and the world she does there. Is she brilliantly, mentally skillful at every moment? Definitely she's still got plenty of work to do but she knows it and she's seeing that value in her own self. Two stories for me that really meaningful in terms of how people are taking Red to Blue forward and how about you personally?
Speaker 1:Has it had an impact on you?
Speaker 2:So there's an easy answer is yes. The slightly longer answer is that when we talk about Red to Blue and one of the techniques that we've taught everybody who learns it, and we ask people to coach around it is the ability to take a step back and see a slightly broader perspective on the situation that they're facing. We call that zooming out before you zoom back in on the task at hand. We would suggest and this is not new as a piece of advice, taking a step back is a very helpful mindset approach when we're really feeling overwhelmed and under pressure and responding in a not helpful way. And I've found that a particularly telling part of Red to Blue for me the mindset approach, because everybody comes across trauma, difficult situations, uncomfortable scenarios. So I believe the message we're giving to the world, to the people we talk to, is don't get trapped by this view that there shouldn't be any discomfort, there shouldn't be any pressure and everything will be fine if you think positively.
Speaker 2:I'm not dismissing those people who find value in thinking positively, but for sure, everybody is going to at some moments in their lives, and maybe multiple moments they're going to face trauma and that might be trauma with a capital T and it's terrible and difficult and it's challenging and it's life-changing. Or it might be trauma with a small T, like I've just missed the bus I really wanted to get. It's frustrating. Whatever it is, we're going to experience those difficulties and we're going to face the challenging mindset moments related to that. And just pausing long enough to take a step back, to zoom out, can give you just a slightly different perspective, a slightly different view that allows you to maybe see your way through it without pretending thinking that way will make you feel happy, but just actually finding a way to navigate through it, giving people that empowerment, that choice, I find personally extraordinarily helpful with the different challenges I've faced.
Speaker 1:I was listening to a podcast the other day, a high-performance podcast with Jason Fox, and he talked about his 10-second rule in terms of responding to anything, just pausing for those 10 seconds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because people often think, oh, you need to and again not dismissing the value of meditation or you need to step away, or you need to go, you know, take a walk around the block or, in the old days, go outside for a cigarette, whatever the current thing used to be. But what jason fox will know, what other people recognize, is just that very deliberate shift in mentality, in perspective. Zooming out for a moment just gives you your now and then to redeploy your energy into a more helpful, thoughtful response to the situation. And it doesn't mean we get it right all the time, it doesn't mean our response is the best amazing response, but it does give you space to decide and that can be truly valued. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It takes practice, though, doesn't it, not to just instinctively respond.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's why one of the breakthrough moments with us, with Red to Blue, is the fact that we position it as a skill. There's plenty of coaches who may not believe that. There's, I'm sure, plenty of leaders and coaches who think actually there's another solution there. Just get really knowledgeable, really skillfulful, whatever it is you want to do, so that you take the diversion out of the, you sort of factor it out by being totally skillful, totally knowledgeable. I just think there's a vulnerability risk with that. So we're saying actually become mentally skillful. How will I later deal with all the difficulties, challenges and traumas that are coming your way? And getting ready now to be ready when. The when is when those tough moments occur. And that's the skill that you're learning. And, as you rightly say, the tougher the moments, the bigger the occasions, the more skillful we need to be.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. One of the questions we want to touch on with communication is key. Have you seen? Red to Blue help people communicate better when they're under pressure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at the heart of what we started to do, going right the way back to the beginning, we always believed in different areas in business generally in terms of leadership, the customer service and sales and all but actually in life, language is such a significant factor in people's ability to articulate how they feel, how they want to respond, how they feel in response to a certain scenario, and often the commonality of language gives us an easier pathway for that communication. So it's one of the reasons why, as you go through Red to Blue, you get a simple, practical, graphical map that just represents that common language in a way that is immediately easy to engage with and relate to. And so the common language we see working across all teams is designed to exactly do that. It gives us an easy way to communicate in those difficult moments. And so the common language we see working across all teams is designed to exactly do that. It gives us an easy way to communicate in those difficult moments.
Speaker 2:And it does so because red versus blue is designed to come without judgment. It's more driven by observation. And then the common language in terms of how to help, support, and it may well be a little bit of redhead. Response time to get back on task can literally be the language that helps people reset in the moments that matter. It doesn't invalidate the seriousness of some of the situations we experience, but it may well give you just a common language to reset, refocus in the moment that matter, and then you can get to the review, a reflection piece, when the time is appropriate. So that's why I like the idea of common language. It just gets us all individually, collectively focused when it matters.
Speaker 1:I have actually seen that in a big exercise where we were introducing Red to Blue and then people were talking in that language and sharing how they were feeling. It was that being perfect sense. If you don't recognize it, it's hard to verbalize it, and then it's hard for other people to understand where you are in your head at that moment yeah, 100.
Speaker 2:So when the all blacks talk about how they use rent-a-blue and they've been at it since 2009, working it into their culture they talk about using the language on the field for themselves, talking to themselves if they need to remind themselves, but actually engaging with others.
Speaker 2:Talking to others, recognizing people's redhead responses, because as you get to know each other in a team in a situation and environment that matters, mind of themselves, but actually engaging with others. Talking to others, recognizing people's redhead responses, because as you get to know each other in a team in a situation, in an environment that matters, you get more able to go a little bit of a redhead response. They're back on task. You can remind people, you can give people gentle acknowledgement that that's where they need to be and that's what you can do. That to help in that situation. And it helps in Abby's race team. So we've got the engineer, the engineer team and her coach. They're very aware of the common language. Often talk to Abby about zooming out, just to take a pause, take a breath. So that common language can be very helpful.
Speaker 1:Have you seen any lessons from other sectors that we could apply in crisis management the emergency response side.
Speaker 2:I think that you do preparation, of course, in dealing with the response. I think that's natural and I imagine the debriefs, following the support that you've provided, will be there. I mean, in any environment where performance in the moment really matters, the preparation to get ready and the reflection on what we did and how we did and where to improve is always part of it. But what I have seen is the very deliberate, purposeful integration of mindset into that conversation. So I think, to make sure, in the preparation questions and the actions and in the review reflection questions, just to ask what role did our mentality play? Was there evidence of a redhead response? If we look at the situation, was it contributed to by our mindset and if it was, then what caused it? I would say the explicit integration, rather than implicit, can be really valuable, because some of the true learning comes when we're explicit about acknowledging the role that mindset plays yeah, I think that's probably more we can do in a debrief.
Speaker 1:For sure. The last bit would be you looking at how do you see Red to Blue evolving in the next sort of five to ten years? Because I guess you started with the heads and have added the extra tools to the shoe to have it evolve.
Speaker 2:We started with a bit more detail actually, so we started probably with too much detail. I think where Red to Blue will evolve now is we've evolved into the broader, simpler picture. So it's made it more engaging for young people, made it more engaging in the moment because of the simplicity of the overview version of the red tablet pads. The detail still needs to be there. I think what we're seeing now is that the development in neurology, the understanding of how brains function and some of the triggers that impacts how our brains actually work.
Speaker 2:I think that we can provide support for making that less complicated on the basis that not everyone either wants to be a brain surgeon or ever will be a brain surgeon, but we all have the capacity to think, the capacity to respond unhelpfully. So I think the red to blue will evolve that way, bringing a natural pathway to what we learn more about mindset and pressure, the impact of pressure. I think it will naturally evolve because we need to digitize it, as committed as I am to deploy it through the foundation and more broadly, we've got to have a digital answer. People are engaging digitally nowadays with their devices, with the different platforms that they can do. That Red to blue has to be available so they can practically do that without removing the value of the human interface and the human interactions that people still see huge value in. So I think it will evolve that way going forward and I think the more people that know about it, the greater the demand there will be to get at it and understand how to use it.
Speaker 1:I hope so, because it's so useful in everyday life, not even just in an informants moment, just in a parenting moment or a getting out the door moment or a, like you say, catching the bus moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm entirely with you and in fact, if someone says, 10 years on, five years on, if we can just get to students, kids, young people in a way that helps them navigate through, I don't see the world getting any easier and in fact I think one could make a reasonable case and say it's going the other way. If it is going to do that and people are going to experience individuals, groups, families, the tough moments, the challenges they face, then if Red to Blue and the description of it, the delivery of it, the coaching around it, just helps them understand that they've got a simple, accessible framework. It represents how we respond mentally to different scenarios and it gives us a pathway to take ownership of our mindset. Just that in itself, and not get caught up with stuff that we just can't control, but reset our attention, acknowledge how we feel and focus in on what we can control. That's gold dust for me If we can get that happening that's really where we're headed.
Speaker 1:If there was one thing you'd want someone listening to this podcast to take away, what would that be?
Speaker 2:I really would urge people to deliberately explicitly acknowledge the fact that mindset has a part to play in how we navigate our ways through our lives and that there is something that we can choose to do to affect how we individually respond to the challenges we face and how we might be able to help others. And if you don't choose red to blue as a simple language, then find another way of doing it. But to shy away from the existence of mentality, either as a problem to our mental health or an opportunity to help us do really well when it matters, is a shame, because I think that's missing out on some of what makes us incredible creatures as humans.
Speaker 1:Thank you, that was really really interesting. I really enjoyed that discussion around to blue. It's incredible the way you're doing.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, emma, and I knew I would enjoy today's session and I knew we'd cover all kinds of areas, and there's more stories building everywhere we go, and there's some stories you and I will not even know about that are just as amazing as the ones we've been to share. So that's what I love about what we do and I look forward to speaking again sometime in the future.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Martin. Thank you for listening to the Response Force Multiplier from OSRL. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and stay tuned for more episodes as we continue to explore key issues in emergency response and crisis management. For more information, head to osrlcom. See you soon.
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