Taught: The Podcast
Taught is a podcast where educators and others discuss how they really feel about education, burnout, and strategies to make the world and education burnout-free.
Taught: The Podcast
Taking Back Teaching: Compassion Fatigue and Empowerment with Melissa Anthony
After years of navigating the exhausting terrain of secondary trauma as an educator, I've embarked on a mission to shed light on this invisible burden. In this episode of "Taught," I'm joined by Melissa Anthony, a licensed counselor and trauma expert, who generously shares her wisdom on how compassion fatigue lurks in the lives of teachers everywhere. We comb through the tangled emotional landscape educators face, revealing how trauma ripples through classrooms in ways often unseen but deeply felt.
Season 1 :
Join the Conversation: https://taughtbymelef.blogspot.com/
Interested in being a guest on the podcast? Email promelef@gmail.com. Include your name, role in education, and a summary of your story.
Here's the book that started it all:
Taught: The Very Private Journal of One Bad Teacher
Available @ Amazon in ebook or audio:
https://a.co/d/1rNZ84h
For immediate help use link for resources:
https://www.healthcentral.com/mental-health/get-help-mental-health
Other resources:
Amy Schamberg Wellness: https://www.amyschamberg.com/about
NHS - Resources for Grief and Burnout
https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/feelings-symptoms-behaviours/feelings-and-symptoms/grief-bereavement-loss/
Melissa Anthony MA, LPC Trauma & Grief Counselor
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/melissa-j-anthony-grand-rapids-mi/944381
So with secondary trauma. This is also known as compassion fatigue, vicarious trauma. Secondary traumatic stress. It's when you are significantly impacted by someone else's trauma. It's indirect and educators are absolutely at risk for experiencing this Absolutely. An example that I can think of that's pretty pressing right now, especially in America, is school shootings, Even though the school shooting may not have happened in your school when you hear it, that secondary trauma of the anxiety and what would I do and how would I protect these kids and how would I protect myself, know this is. This is just one example of many of how something may not be happening directly to you, but the trauma of it absolutely is impacting all the same. How much I miss not knowing that we're all screwed.
Speaker 2:A few years ago, I started writing a fictitious story based on my time as an educator. It is called Taught, and the story was partially inspired out of anger and frustration fueled by burnout. Okay, actually, it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration fueled by burnout Okay, actually, it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration. But taught has also become a vehicle for me to tell what I thought at the time and in some ways continue to think was and is the real story of teaching. I now realize that my perspective is not everyone's perspective, but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators perspective. But there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators. This podcast is an extension of that story and I, a former teacher, will interview other educators, asking them to share how they really feel about the current state of education. Why are so many teachers burnout? Why are so many like me leaving the field? We likely won't solve any problems or come up with any solutions, but we can create a community of voices that maybe begin the conversation around how educators can take back teaching. I'm Melissa LaFleur. Welcome to Taught the podcast. I like to be educated, but I'm so frustrated.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody, I am excited to welcome our good friend, Melissa Anthony back today, and she is ready to shower us with more pearls of wisdom in the area of trauma. If this is your first time hearing Melissa, let me share a few things about her. Melissa Anthony is a licensed counselor who specializes in trauma and grief, along with the depression and anxiety that often follow. Melissa was the trauma program coordinator for one of the largest psychiatric hospitals in Michigan. Additionally, she has experience working with folks in crisis with imminent risks, such as suicidal ideation, homicidal ideation and psychosis. These days she has a private practice and works abroad, in Portugal, with her husband and two children. And today Melissa is here to chat with me about secondary trauma and how it affects educators. Spoiler alert she's also going to give us some helpful tips on how to minimize the effects of secondary trauma, which will hopefully lead educators away from the burn of burnout. Melissa, thanks for coming back and helping us unpack this.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me, melissa. I genuinely enjoy these podcasts and empowering our educators and I'm looking forward to just jumping right in with you, the Melissa Dream Team.
Speaker 2:So in case someone missed our other episode on trauma it was season two, episode number three Can you take a moment to go over the definition of trauma and how we know if we're experiencing it?
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. Psychological trauma is when an individual experiences emotional distress that is so overwhelming they struggle to emotionally process or digest this. What brings on this distress could be a one-time occurrence, like maybe a dog attack, or it could be a lifetime of occurrences that cause significant stress to the individual I think about, like maybe a parent struggling with substance use. So, additionally, people process experiences differently. Not everyone has the same reaction to any event, so what one person experiences as trauma may not cause distress for another. Last time we used the car crash example of if we have person A and person B in a car crash. Person A could walk out and go oh my goodness, I need to go to work, like I'm late for work and it doesn't even phase, and whereas person B gets out of the car and says I'm never driving again and has panic and anxiety whenever they get behind the wheel. So trauma looks a little differently for everybody, but basically it's again. It's that emotional distress that's just so overwhelming it's hard to process.
Speaker 2:I really like this example and I liked it when you used it last time too because it kind of leaves space for all of us to have it's kind of the symptoms, right.
Speaker 2:It's not necessarily the event as much as it is our reaction to the event, and it leaves space for all of us to acknowledge that we can experience trauma for different reasons. So today we're going to talk about secondary trauma and before we really get into that, can you just kind of break down for us what secondary trauma is as opposed to firsthand trauma, and maybe also throw in there when we are at risk for experiencing this?
Speaker 1:And you know too. I want to mention that's an excellent point it's trauma is about the symptoms. It really is. It's not necessarily about the event, it's about the symptoms and those symptoms. We can have bigas again, thinking about attacks or assaults, fires, these sort of events, but we also have little T traumas, the day-to-day stuff that slowly just burns us at both ends. So a secondary trauma this is also known as compassion fatigue, vicarious trauma, secondary traumatic stress. It's when you are significantly impacted by someone else's trauma. It's indirect and educators are absolutely at risk for experiencing this Absolutely. An example that I can think of that's pretty pressing right now, especially in America, is school shootings. Even though the school shooting may not have happened in your school when you hear it, that secondary trauma of the anxiety and what would I do and how would I protect these kids and how would I protect myself. This is just one example of many of how something may not be happening directly to you but the trauma of it absolutely is impacting all the same.
Speaker 2:You know it's really so. I'm going to take a little bird walk here because I am in the midst of reading a book right now. It's called the Women by Kristen Hanna and it's for my book club and it's about Vietnam nurse, nurses who who went to Vietnam during the Vietnam War, and so the main character has just gotten home and we do these podcasts around burnout. So I was like man, this girl's experiencing burnout when she was in Vietnam. But I think a lot of times.
Speaker 2:My first thing I want to say is I think a lot of times we think in order to experience trauma or secondary trauma, we have to have something huge like that happen. So again, I appreciate you saying it doesn't have to be something like that. But I think the thing in this book that kind of hit me was that the character, the main character, seems to she knows she's experiencing horrific things during the, the war, um, but it was really after the fact that when she had all of that taken away, she was almost addicted to being in the situation where the trauma was occurring and then, when she got out of combat and she was home, she experienced the nightmares and the things that we kind of have begun to associate with a wartime experience, but it made me think, melissa, that even with secondary trauma as an educator I think sometimes I got really wrapped up in a family or kiddo and their individual crisis.
Speaker 2:One year I had a student whose mom passed away suddenly and his dad was in another state and they didn't know where he was going to go. Dad was in another state and they didn't know where he was going to go and it wasn't until so we were in that space for about a month of every day was the phone calls trying to help him, trying to secure resources and get things kind of figured out. And it was really after the fact that I kind of had this reaction. I think to that. So as I was reading because I do some research for these I came across this article and I thought, holy cow, I could check the boxes here. So I'm going to read to you a little bit and this article will be linked to the episode. So the article was written by Karen Biker and she is the executive director of the Yale Child Study Center, and the name of the article is the Impact of Secondary Trauma on Educators. Teachers who work in areas of high poverty or high trauma will typically experience a greater exposure to secondary trauma stress and she calls that STS, which you just basically said this that teachers are at high risk, but trauma exists across all socioeconomic groups. I do want to. I'm glad she put that in there. I'm glad she put that in there.
Speaker 2:According to the National Child Traumatic Stress Network, risk appears to be greater among educators with previous or unresolved trauma exposure, female educators, highly empathetic educators, new or inexperienced educators with a lack of training, educators working with unsupportive administrators or administrations, educators working in communities that have experienced communal trauma, including high levels of poverty, high levels of crime, generational, historical trauma, tragic events and national disasters. That made me think of school shootings. So I read this and I think, okay, so this is. Almost every teacher I know fits into one of these categories and, by the way, I already said I will link the article in today's show notes, melissa, educators are clearly vulnerable, as you started out with.
Speaker 2:So how do we still connect with families and kids in meaningful ways and keep our own hearts safe? As I told you, I got really. It was really easy for me to get wrapped up and then just have this kind of crash after, and I think it's because I probably didn't have the boundaries that I needed to process it. I needed to to process it. So I guess the first thing is how do we know? How do we, how do we beforehand know, hey, we're in a risky situation for secondary trauma.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a. That's a good question. You know too, and I don't know how to say this, so I guess I'm just gonna say it right we have to learn how to desensitize ourselves. We have to learn how to. When I leave work and I turn that light switch off in my classroom, that proverbial light switch of turning it off that means work stays here. Work stays here.
Speaker 1:You know what you said earlier about people when they're in it, distraction, distraction is a coping skill. If I'm in it and I'm focused on this child or this tragedy or this event, you know it's very easy Like in that moment, we are in survival mode. We're in survival mode. We are getting our getting the job done, whatever that is. We're trying to put ourselves out there and be a part of whatever's happening. And then, after the fact, when everything kind of calms this is just like you said this is when we start noticing wait a minute, like I'm getting anxiety, I'm getting nightmares, I'm having intrusive thoughts about it. Yeah, because when you're in it, you're in survival mode, you're just going and doing right.
Speaker 1:So I think this article mentions some important points that are worth highlighting. First, teachers are humans. Okay, humans each come with our own bag of BS. Know your bag. Know your bag If you feel as if you have unresolved trauma exposures or triggers that are hard to cope with, that something within your professional world is harming you repeatedly or causing you stress that you just can't seem to resolve. Find yourself a damn good trauma therapist. Make sure they specialize in trauma. Now reach out to a few different therapists and ask for free consultations to get a feel for their personalities and specializations. We're not all the same, and most therapists will offer a free phone call 15, 20 minutes so you can kind of get a feel for what they do.
Speaker 1:For the listeners that are looking for some type of trauma-specific therapy, two types of therapy you can start with that have strong evidence-based research behind them and works wonders for trauma and secondary trauma and even overall burnout. It's called eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing EMDR Again, eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing. And then there's also another form of therapy called internal family systems internal family systems and you know we won't get too far in the weeds with what these are, but they are trauma therapies that are very helpful. It's 2024. You know, you don't have to suffer any longer. You really don't. You have tough jobs. You do not have to suffer any longer. Get help, whatever it takes.
Speaker 1:Second, the article mentions new or inexperienced educators and unsupportive administrations. Both of these points can make a person feel very isolated, alone and out of their depth. Without the proper connections and tools in place, many people will suffer in silence. If you're new or inexperienced, I highly recommend reading books or listening to podcasts of those who are just a few steps ahead. Empower yourself with knowledge. Find trusted colleagues that you may feel like they can validate and support what you're going through, because we've all been there. Be gentle with yourself. Everybody starts off, new and inexperienced, at some point in their careers and eventually you're going to find your footing. If you don't have support within your administration, try to seek it out externally. But regardless, you don't have to be alone in this, I reiterate, and you don't have to suffer in silence.
Speaker 2:You don't. It's valid, it's all valid. And I just read an article and it really sat with me in a different area of my life. But it said sometimes you have to be comfortable being a beginner. Oh yeah, you have to be comfortable in that space of saying, okay, I am just beginning this process. So for those first year educators, you don't have to know it all. It's okay to be a beginner, it's okay to reach out for help, especially if you're getting secondary trauma from what's going on within your classroom or your school environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and growth happens in the discomfort. Growth happens because eventually we would hope like, okay, I'm uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable. What do I do? Maybe I find my boundaries, maybe I find my voice, maybe I find my people, maybe I say to hell with it all and I go find a new job, right. So like, yes, uncomfort is not fun, it's not a fun place to be, but the hope is there is some component of growth in that that's going to help polish you into a more evolved, better version of yourself, because you went through that, because you know it's not fun, it's not great, but it's not going to be the end of the world either. Like, you will figure it out, you will figure it out.
Speaker 2:I'm really glad that you spoke to we just did a first year teacher. Her interview was this this in the month of September and man alive did she have a rough time on so many levels. And I just think that if you're not a newbie teacher, goodness please be reaching out to those people because, man, they need support and we need them to stay, and this is part of it. When you see that they have traumatic things going on in their classrooms a lot of times, we know, we know the family and the kiddo and all the background or we know the colleagues and you know one of the most traumatic thing happened to multiple colleagues for me a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2:Two different buildings that I had worked at lost teachers. In the middle of the year. The teachers passed away. In the middle of the year the teachers passed away and you know they needed support from every avenue they could get it. So we got to reach out to each other, got to be a community.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent. Be the person you needed back then. Be that person. If you're seeing a younger teacher struggle or an inexperienced teacher struggle, be that person and try not to come in like a shame or I'm going to tell you what to do approach, but validate and normalize them. Normalize we're all in this together but absolutely, if you can be that person you needed Because imposter syndrome that feeds into burnout too Imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:Yes, it does.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and a lot of educators, a lot of therapists. When we're starting out, we feel that imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:Podcasters do too.
Speaker 1:Heck yeah.
Speaker 2:Also, I just want to say I'm glad that you said just now don't come at it from. I'm going to tell you how to handle this. I needed a soft space to land. Be that soft space to land for that person, because that's what they really need, especially with some of the stuff we've got going on right now. Teachers I mean educators, not just teachers. I think sometimes educators get so used to absorbing the secondary trauma that they lose their capacity to even recognize it and then you start. Well, you said I didn't realize that secondary trauma and compassion fatigue are the same thing, because I did have quite a few trainings on compassion fatigue. So once you get into that compassion fatigue you know that's part of burnout as well. So can you walk us through some of the ways we can recognize that compassion fatigue? Are there signs that we've taken in so much that we hope? I mean maybe we need therapy at that point, but I think sometimes we don't recognize it. That's what I'm trying to say here. So how do we know?
Speaker 1:How do we know? Again, compassion fatigue, that's valid. That's valid. I think sometimes we beat ourselves up for things that are just normal human experience. If you're one that just takes it on and takes it on and takes it on and takes it on, eventually this part of yourself, this compassion fatigue of like I just don't have it in me to care anymore. Honestly, if we get to the root of that, that's a form of protection. That's your body saying I can't, I can't, we're done, we've had enough. Our bucket's full. So compassion fatigue is your body's way of trying to protect you, right? So great questions First, I guess how do we know?
Speaker 1:How do we know we're in that place? It's very I take a very person-centered approach. It's very individualistic. So first I would suggest let's reflect on times in your life when you have felt stressed, overwhelmed, completely burnt out. What do you remember about those seasons? What were you thinking? How are you feeling? What did your behaviors or lack thereof look like?
Speaker 1:Use your own history as a gauge of measurement. For example, if you notice in previous times of high stress you become overly self-critical, or maybe you're apathetic or indifferent, and now you're seeing a return of that, that could be a telltale sign that you're entering or living in that zone again. So there's a clinical book in my field that clinicians use to reference and diagnose various mental health conditions. It's called the DSM-5. So this is like the book, right? The medical field uses for all things mental health. This book considers secondary traumatic stress to mimic the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, ptsd. So it mimics. It's very similar. People have various reactions to stress and trauma, but here's just a few telltale signs.
Speaker 1:Look for emotional signs. Maybe you're having really heavy feelings of sadness or anger, guilt, numbness, feeling helpless, being overly critical on yourself. These emotional signs of like I just feel mental signs, you know lack of concentration, poor motivation, rigidity, preoccupation with the stress, meaning like you're having these intrusive thoughts all day about it. Feeling indifferent, perfectionism. I have to help this child, I have to be there for him, I have to do everything right. Feeling as if you're not doing enough. A savior complex. If I don't help this kid, his story is over. Doom and gloom. Feeling less than Feeling worthless. So these are some of the mental signs of this secondary stress.
Speaker 1:Behaviorally, so what does this look like? This could look like poor sleep, poor appetite, maybe isolating or withdrawing, increased anxiety, increased people pleasing or pouring yourself into others to the point where it's like becoming a distraction, maybe being increasingly confrontational, a shorter fuse. Even physically, we suffer. Physically, you might notice. You might have more aches and pains. You could have an impaired immune system, maybe you're getting sicker more often headaches, increased heart rate, increased blood pressure, difficulty breathing. So really this stress impacts every single part of yourself heart, mind, body, soul, spirit, you name it. It's all feeling the impact.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's whenever I moved. I went through a lot of stress and I actually lost a lot of hair. You can't tell today.
Speaker 2:And actually a lot of it's coming back and it's all like gray and curly. So I don't appreciate that, but at least it's coming back and it's all like gray and curly. So I don't appreciate that, but at least it's coming back. Yeah, yeah, you know one of the things you said. Some of these behaviors mimic what we think good teachers do, though that you're talking about I, I know I, so I'm going to tell you a little story.
Speaker 2:I I used to teach sixth grade in a self-contained setting. Um, meaning, middle school didn't start for this group of kiddos until they went into seventh grade and had a great school that I worked at, but it had a lot of diversity, a lot of kids from other countries and a lot of them had seen some icky stuff and they were having to kind of learn how to be American, you know, and learn that system, despite some of the things that they had gone through. And then, additionally, I had some students that had been in a different program that in sixth grade they decided to put them in my classroom and the program they had been in the public education system up to that point was a program for kids who, behaviorally, could not manage themselves in a classroom. So the combination of the two was a lot of stress. And I remember she's a good friend of mine now but I remember the school psychologist saying to me I am going to buy you a t-shirt that says but what will happen to them in middle school? I'm so tired of hearing you say that they will be fine, just like every other kid will be fine. Your job is to get this job done and whatever happens in middle school, that happens in middle school.
Speaker 2:But we cannot sit through more meetings where you're railing because I am confrontational. I'm confrontational when I'm not stressed, so imagine when I'm stressed. Boy, I am that let's go, let's have some confrontation. I love it in my work setting especially. And she said she just laid it out there for me. She said we're not sitting through another meeting where your arguments are all but what's going to happen to them in middle school and you said that just a minute ago where you get into this circular thinking because your own stress level is unregulated and catastrophizing. Really, I was just assuming that I was. I had the savior complex. I was just assuming that I was. I had the savior complex. I can control all of this and I can set them up so that they will all have a perfect perfectionism year in middle school.
Speaker 1:I like that you're seeing yourself in this, because I'm hearing beautiful points Like what's within our control and what's outside of our control. We can't control what happens then when they go to middle school.
Speaker 2:Right and the boundaries of like.
Speaker 1:this is not my job, and even the doom and gloom thinking of. If I don't do this, then they're just bound to live a life of catastrophe. Yes, yes, Stop that. Everybody who's listening, stop that.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, like I said, I think a lot of times some of those things you said, it's like oh, I thought that's what a good teacher did, but not to our detriment. Right, we are educators. That is our job to educate these children, not to right all the wrongs in their lives. I love that you know are you helping or harming.
Speaker 1:Helping or harming, you can help all the way to the point where it starts harming you, and then that's the line. That's the line we draw right there, good.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, it also strikes me that at some point this is going to come to most educators in some way the secondary trauma and compassion fatigue. Because it could be argued and you mentioned this at the beginning that every time there's a school shooting, educators are taking in the secondary trauma of our colleagues, because even though I don't work with those educators one-on-one, they're my colleagues, right, we're all in the same profession and we all. That's our biggest fear. Yeah, all in the same profession and we all. That's our biggest fear. And I've read a lot of LinkedIn posts around and I get confrontational again, but it is. You know, these people need a hug and I just think, sorry, listeners, but fuck that, fuck that they need more than a fucking hug, that they need more than a fucking hug. Um, I, just I, I, I tap into that and I know I'm not the only one. I am feeling it for them.
Speaker 2:So how do we prepare ourselves in advance every time this gets? Because there's the school shootings are happening all the time, and I know that every time we had, you know, a fire alarm, I just felt on edge while I was in the, when I was still teaching. All the time we have lockdowns, at least one or two a year, and it always ended up to be something that wasn't anything like a school shooter. But living on the edge like that and then having it affirmed for you in the news every month that it's a reality, I mean, how do we take care of ourselves in that space? Is there anything that we can do to lessen the impact of this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, fuck that.
Speaker 2:It's more than a hug. I'm all about hugs.
Speaker 1:It's more than a hug.
Speaker 1:Well, all right, you know this is a hard one, because I'm not going to lie to the listeners. I'm not going to say hey, you know kumbaya, peace and love. Baby, this isn't something you need to worry about. It's a valid fear, it's absolutely valid. One of my teacher friends said I'm so sick of reading stories of teachers being heroic and dying on top of children trying to protect them. I don't want to be a hero, I didn't ask for that, I just want to be a teacher. You know and that breaks my heart that educators are expected to not only take on a professional position that has its own challenges and demands, but now this additional expectation that school shootings are now part of their professional identities and they must wear that like a badge of honor. You know, school shootings absolutely play in a secondary trauma.
Speaker 1:I'm sure the majority of these listeners have had to process deeply what their plan of action would be if someone attempted to enter their classroom with ill intentions, and it's okay to validate that. Like I said, it's a rational fear, it's valid. So practice mindfulness. You know, what do we do? The only thing we can control? Right, we can't control, we can take steps, and I'm all about advocating and taking action steps, absolutely, absolutely you find peace. However, you can find peace wherever you can find peace, whether that's through action, whether that's through prayer or meditation, whether that's through both. But find your peace in those moments where you can. Thoughts and these fears and these anxieties. I'll teach you something that you know if you're in a situation where there's no danger, but you're feeling distressed, like you're just kind of thinking about it, you're breaking your own heart, you're emotionally cutting, you're thinking about the what ifs let's try this acronym, rain Like what do we do in those moments? Rain?
Speaker 2:R-A-I-N.
Speaker 1:R. So first, recognize what's happening. Recognize in that moment, notice it in your body. Oof, I feel that fear in my chest, you know. Recognize it's happening. Step one know thyself.
Speaker 1:Right, it's a real, valid concern. It's a rational response to feel distressed. A allow it to be there just as it is, don't dismiss it, don't gaslight it, don't minimize it, don't fight it and say nope, nope, nope. Let me swallow this down or compartmentalize it. Or what's wrong with me for feeling this way? No, like, right now especially, it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to be angry, it's okay to be scared. Honestly, you know, let the fear or anger be what it is until it isn't. If you're noticing these intense emotions, sometimes the best thing you can do again, you recognize it's happening and you allow it to run its course. You just let it go through you like a vessel.
Speaker 1:Okay, I investigate with interest and care. Ask yourself like okay, like, let's investigate this. We're going to be curious, we're not going to be judgmental, we're going to investigate it. There's a reason why you're feeling this way right now, in this moment. Ask yourself where is the stress coming from in this moment. Did something trigger this? Remind yourself in this moment I am safe, I am okay. Sometimes a good old-fashioned reality check really can just soothe the system. I'm okay in this moment, I am safe. And then, finally, when you're having those fears and those thoughts, and then finally, when you're having those fears and those thoughts, nurture that. Nurture that with self-compassion, take care of yourself, ask yourself okay, what do?
Speaker 1:I need. Do I need a day off? Do I need a break? Do I need connection, like talk to a friend about this? Do I need a boundary? Do I need to turn off the damn news and the television? Do I need a tangible action step? Do I need to go to administration and see? You know what are our safety protocols? How safe am I? What do you need to do in that moment? And give yourself that with self-compassion, whatever that is, no matter how big or how small it can be for you. But that's what we do in those moments, Because, unfortunately, I wish there was some sort of alternative. But being safe in our minds and our hearts and our bodies, the best of our ability, that is going to be the biggest benefit you can give to yourself when there are so many things outside of your control happening right now in this world.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's really good advice and I was kind of trying to take myself through that process and because it could be a lot of different things that trigger that secondary trauma for teachers. But I know for me I'm not in the classroom right now but what triggers me to go to that space where I find myself thinking about these types of things way more than I want to and feeling it, is when I see one of the stories. So if I took myself through the process, it would be recognizing that every time I see one of those articles, read one of those headlines, that that's when I'm triggered and being aware, I think, and sitting with it as you were saying, that I'm like it would, the awareness that I have is that this could happen to my friends at this point.
Speaker 2:That's where my worry and my stress is coming from, and if I were to investigate that, I would say the thing that I'm really feeling there is that I might lose somebody I love.
Speaker 1:And how sad is that.
Speaker 2:And even when I did it, even when I did it with you, it made me tear up. So that's good therapy, right there.
Speaker 1:I have my moments, but no, like it's heartbreaking, because it's true, it's, it's so true, you know and then you know.
Speaker 2:The end part is what do we do about it here? And what was in again? What did it stand for rain? R-a-i-n rain yeah, but what was the end?
Speaker 1:uh, the end was nurture nurture, like I noticed.
Speaker 2:So theory.
Speaker 1:I noticed something about that like yeah nurture that sadness. That sadness is there for a reason. That sadness loves you. You, that sadness is protecting you too. It's comforting.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think too that it also nurturing it would be me reaching out to those people I care about when I read something like that and saying, hey, I just want you to know, I care about you because, that is ultimately what it's about.
Speaker 2:For me at this point as a teacher, it was about, you know, having to be ready to save everyone, and so I probably would have taken your last suggestion, which would have been to go and learn more about the safety measures that were in place and make sure that I was really on top of that.
Speaker 2:But this was a big reason that I left Melissa, to be honest with you and it was because my own child was in the schools that I worked at, was in the schools that I worked at. I don't know how many lockdowns we had in two different buildings, and at the end I would have that thought of because I would have made a great military member. I'm really good at doing the drill and going through the motions and I'm very reactive, and if I have a path of reaction, I'm really good at following it. But I never thought about my own child. I thought about making sure I did all the steps and then, after it was over, I was always hit with this my kid was here, my kid was here and my priority was taking care of these 30 kids, and I don't want my kid in a system that's having lockdown about leaving the United States, or doing something different, education wise and we didn't get it accomplished for a few years, but finally we did.
Speaker 1:You know. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I mean it resonates. It resonates the year after my son graduated high school. Our high school had a school shooting and two people were shot at high school graduation one year after we were there and it just it boggles my mind of like that could have been us. You know you go through it. I want to know what you said earlier was so beautiful At one point in my life, what would nurturing have looked like?
Speaker 1:Nurturing for me would have been okay, know the procedures, talk to administration, feel safe that way. And now nurturing for you is reach out to my friends, tell them I love them, tell them I think about them, tell them I care about them. That is beautiful, because what is nurturing? Nurturing is based on the individual. The individual who is on fire decides what they need to be nurtured Right. So I love that. It shifts. I don't think there's a right or wrong to nurturing.
Speaker 1:And even talking about this, it reminds me of this quote and, forgive me, I don't know who said it, but I thought it was really nice. I just saw it the other day and it was no amount. No amount of regret can change the past. Okay, no amount of regret can change the past. No amount of anxiety can change the future, right, no amount of anxiety can change the future, but any amount of grateful joy changes the present. Yeah, so no amount of regret changes the past. Joy changes the present. Yeah, so no amount of regret changes the past. No amount of anxiety changes the future, but any amount of grateful joy changes the present. When you're feeling that, that nurture, how can I nurture? Well, you know what damn it? I'm going to call my teacher friends and I'm just going to give them grateful joy. I'm going to tell them the sun and moon shines out of their ass and they're the greatest things in sliced bread and I'm going to love them deeply. Well, that is something so beautiful that can change right here, right now, in this moment.
Speaker 2:So I think it adds an action step to where it makes you, because I think a lot of times these secondary trauma situations we feel a bit like we need to do something, and for me, anyway, that's how I feel. So it adds that action step for me. I love it. And so now we've entered into a little bit. The nurturer gets us to the self-care space. So we talk a lot about self-care on this podcast. Can you share some tips on how we care for ourselves reactively and proactively when it comes to secondary trauma, Like how do we care for ourselves after experiencing a secondary trauma or compassion fatigue and then how do we care for ourselves in advance to perhaps lighten the blow of secondary trauma and compassion fatigue?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. Teachers need support. You know, really honestly, teachers need support. Educators forgive me for saying teachers, educators need support. The expectation to do more with less is at an all-time high and I think teachers need to be part of the conversation and others should be assisting to advocate. So, whether you are an educator or an advocate for educators, I think that we all need to be part of this discussion. You know, in a perfect world, higher salaries and benefits would absolutely reduce burnout. So don't ever stop reiterating that message. You're worthy. You're worthy. Lobby fight, do what you got to do when you can, how you can with what you have, but higher salaries and benefits would help reduce burnout.
Speaker 1:Peer support or other gatherings where teachers can speak their truths without fear and retaliation, find connection with others. Have an educator's night out at the local pizza place or pub or whatever you need. Talk to administration and see if maybe they can form some kind of teacher support group in your setting. Something where you can find connection with others helps. Just knowing you're not alone in this.
Speaker 1:Self-care, self-care, self-care. I think sometimes people think self-care and it's like, oh my gosh, I'm going to go to the spa and I'm going to get a massage and YOLO bubbles, treat myself. That can be. That can be. But sometimes self-care looks like just setting a boundary. You know, sometimes it's set a boundary or choose resentment. Sometimes it's telling yourself you know what their staffing concerns is not my problem. Sometimes it's walking away and saying they're going to be fine in middle school. I have done what I can with what I've got. And now I to let go and release yeah, going back to turning off the news if you need mental breaks, taking your lunch outside and being in nature just to get away from, like, the sounds of it all Shoot. Self-care can look like watching all the trash reality TV. Your little heart desires to decompress. You know me well, you know what I like. I mean, don't we all?
Speaker 2:We could talk, we could have our own little podcast on.
Speaker 1:You know, love is blind. Or marry that first son if you wanted to yes, we could.
Speaker 1:Yes, we could, but realizing if self-care looks like, realizing what's within your control versus outside of your control, like these little acts can be self-care Versus outside of your control, like these little acts can be self-care. I would also say take any and all trainings that can help you feel more prepared and confident in crisis and burnout scenarios. Advocate for yourself regarding what trainings are available to you. And you know, if you're not an educator but you're wondering how you can help recognize your educators efforts, send a kind note, let them know you see them, let them know you get like it is hard and then you appreciate them. Like damn, you're on fire. Here's a glass of water, whatever that looks like. How can I be of service to you? Because, damn, aren't they in service to our children? So what can we do to just help carry some of that load for them? Whatever the case may be?
Speaker 2:You know, I wish that you had been in my ear while I was still teaching, right?
Speaker 1:now I would have been your hype man. I would have hyped that ass all day Like get it girl.
Speaker 2:We need so much of this and you know, I think, that so many of the things that you mentioned, that so many of the things that you mentioned, it is about the higher salaries and the benefits, and I just had someone talking to me the other day and they said I'm gonna talk about the benefits portion because anybody who is a change maker out there that might hear this God, this needs to be changed. But this person works in an education system. And they said one of my benefits is that I get however many counseling sessions and if I hadn't heard it so many times, I wouldn't be so pissed about it. But they give you a list and they say, okay, these are the people that you can go to.
Speaker 2:So she had like 10 people she could go to. So she had like 10 people she could go to. Five of them the number had been disconnected. Two of them she couldn't even get into for months, you know, and two she left messages and never heard back. One finally took her in. It's this guy who's semi-retired, operating out of a spare bedroom in his house. He has turned out to be very good for her.
Speaker 1:But it started off kind of sussy.
Speaker 2:But I'm glad I had to have her, but I'm just like stop putting in there that you have these benefits on paper. That's not benefits, folks. You know a benefit is something that benefits you. That's the nature of the word. So I just wanted to put a little plug in there, because you never know, somebody out there might be like, yeah, we need to do something in my district and advocate for that and, like I said, if I didn't hear it so often I wouldn't be saying anything about it. But the higher salaries, yes, but benefits like that where you can go and get support when you need it Amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's hard to find a counselor these days. It really is. If any of your listeners need help, reach out like I will help you. I will help figure it out with you. I'll walk beside you in that. But yeah, I think that's absolutely very common where you get this list of providers and the numbers are disconnected or you get some really nice guy in a basement. So let's hope that doesn't happen to our listeners.
Speaker 2:Let's hope we can find and get them connected with someone pretty damn good. So, like I said, I I wish you'd been my buddy when I was still teaching, but it's really nice to have you as my buddy now, and right now you are in the ears of all my listeners, so what would you like to leave them with today?
Speaker 1:lot of times when it comes to burnout, when it comes to secondary stress, compassion, fatigue. You know we looked at some of the ways this shows up. I would say too, there's usually a component of hopelessness. Okay, hopelessness, and what I've noticed in my profession is a lot of times like visualize your mind as this room with 100 doors, 100 doors and people will ask themselves the question of well, maybe I should leave my job. No, I can't, and they just slam that door. They slam the door without looking behind the door. Thoughts become things. Look behind the door. It costs you nothing to look behind the door, whatever that door is. Maybe I could get administration to do this. No, maybe I can find support Not happening. Maybe I could get a different job. No, you know these moments where we just slam that door on ourselves and we don't look behind it. Any question that could be asked in the universe most likely has been already asked on YouTube with a blueprint on how right, like all it costs, is just looking behind that door. Okay, so if you notice, you're one that just kind of closes those doors on yourself.
Speaker 1:Melissa, us coming to Portugal, right? I'm sure the first time we had that thought of hey, maybe we should leave America, maybe we should come to Portugal. No, I can't, no, yeah. But then we had that moment where I was like, okay, but let's open the store. What if we did? What would that look like? What are the small, tangible, bite-sized steps to getting there? And remember, with some people, all it costs is an ask. All it costs is an ask. You go to administration, you ask some questions. They say no big book. Okay, it costs an ask. You are no different going out of it than you were coming into it. So I think, for those that are feeling hopeless and trapped right now, let's go in the little chamber of our minds and let's start looking behind some doors. What is anything, anything I can do, and what would it take to get there? Just sit and look. Does that make sense? Is that a decent analogy?
Speaker 2:It does make sense and I do think that opening those doors, oftentimes it's almost like you're letting yourself out of the burnout space just by opening the door. You know, and I've been thinking about this over the last couple of podcasts and I want to reiterate to anyone who's in this burnout place for whatever reason, reason, it's a journey, folks. It takes a while to get to the other side, but you want to start opening those doors and climbing out of it. I'm not saying it can be done overnight, and I don't think anybody who's come on here has told a story of, yeah, I quit my job and everything was better. Or I switched jobs and everything was better. Or, you know, I went to counseling once and everything was better. It's a journey. It is a journey and it's a lot of work, but you're worth it.
Speaker 1:You're worth it.
Speaker 2:All that work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're worth it. And all that work. It might be tough, but is it better than being, you know that frog in the boiling pot or suffering in silence or feeling alone and isolated and imposterish? It might be hard, but I think a lot of the listeners are already going through the hard. So let's look through the door, let's see what else could be done Anything.
Speaker 2:I love it. Melissa, thank you for coming and you know I'm going to ask you to come back again.
Speaker 1:I enjoy this. I'll come back as often as you'll have me, Melissa.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll take you up on that.
Speaker 1:Be good, be well well.
Speaker 2:Today's episode was produced and edited by me. The theme music is by Otis McDonald featuring Joni Ines. If you know someone who might enjoy these conversations, please share the podcast episodes as much and as often as you can. It's as simple as copying the link you use to access today's episode and sending it in a message or sharing it on social media. I'm a small, independent operation and your shares broaden our audience. Perhaps you or someone you know will be inspired to talk about teacher burnout. If you would like to get your voice on my podcast, contact me via the link on my webpage, totbuzzsproutcom. Coach, speaker and author Rashid Ogunlaro said it may take many voices for people to hear the same message. Join me in being one of the many voices rising up to get the message out around educator burnout. This is Melissa LaFleur. Thank you for listening to.
Speaker 1:Taught the podcast.
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