Burnout: A Journey Towards Resilience with Amy Schamberg (Final Episode In Series)

What if the very traits that make you an exceptional teacher are also the ones leading you to burnout? Join burnout recovery expert Amy Schamberg as she explores the complex dynamics between personality traits and burnout in the teaching profession. We reveal the hidden struggles many educators face, discussing how characteristics like agreeableness, perfectionism, and the so-called "teacher personality" of an ENFJ can both energize and exhaust educators. 

Ball State University Link:
https://www.bsu.edu/about/administrativeoffices/careercenter/tools-resources/personality-types/enfj

Amy's Article Link: 
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/education/articles/10.3389/feduc.2022.822659/full

Episode 1: 

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2093647/episodes/15397720

Episode 2: 

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2093647/episodes/15544311

Episode 3: 

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2093647/episodes/15693006

Episode 4: 

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2093647/episodes/15930802

Episode 5: 

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2093647/episodes/16090181

Chapters

• 0:05 Educator Personality Traits and Burnout
• 14:33 Educator Burnout and Vulnerabilities
• 18:33 Self-Care and Boundaries for Educators
• 23:00 Setting Boundaries and Avoiding Burnout

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

I think it's a combination of personality, characteristics and culture, because, you know, if there is a leadership style that promotes recognition and appreciation, then I think that you would maybe feel more comfortable even declining doing something extra, because you know that they know what you've already done, right, but if they're not prioritized, if the leadership is not prioritizing recognition and appreciation for the things that you've done, then it just kind of makes this this culture where it doesn't feel safe to stand up and kind of share what you've been working on how much I miss, not knowing that we're all screwed.

Speaker 2: 1:10

A few years ago, I started writing a fictitious story based on my time as an educator. It is called Taught, and the story was partially inspired out of anger and frustration fueled by burnout. Okay, actually, it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration fueled by burnout Okay, actually, it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration. But taught has also become a vehicle for me to tell what I thought at the time and in some ways continue to think was and is the real story of teaching. I now realize that my perspective is not everyone's perspective, but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators perspective, but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators.

Speaker 2: 1:51

This podcast is an extension of that story and I, a former teacher, will interview other educators, asking them to share how they really feel about the current state of education. Why are so many teachers burnout? Why are so many like me leaving the field? We likely won't solve any problems or come up with any solutions, but we can create a community of voices that maybe begin the conversation around how educators can take back teaching. I'm Melissa LaFleur. Welcome to Taught the podcast I like to be educated, but I'm so frustrated.

Speaker 2: 2:27

She's back, and if you're listening and thought it's Amy Schamberg, you are right. Amy is here once again to help us find ways to navigate burnout and take back the education careers we love and want. Burnout is her specialty and she is ready to support us. Amy earned her graduate degree in school psychology from the University of Colorado and worked as a school psychologist in the Denver metro area for over a decade. Now, as a certified functional medicine health coach, amy continues to work in wellness consultancy roles within educational programs throughout Colorado wellness consultancy roles within educational programs throughout Colorado. She specializes in mental health, burnout recovery and holistic well-being. So she has our back, educators, and we are ready to jump in this week. Amy, thank you for being here.

Speaker 1: 3:17

Thank you so much for having me, Melissa.

Speaker 2: 3:20

I'm excited for this conversation. So, amy, I vividly remember my first couple of years of teaching, and not for all the stress reasons that we've been talking about, but I had this really special moment in my own life and I'll never forget it. I remember walking through the halls it was maybe, you know, like February of the school year and I just felt like I had found my place and my tribe amongst educators. And truly I was not that person who was like, oh, I'm going to be an educator from an early age. I was someone who meandered around and couldn't really find where she belonged, but I felt that that tribe educator tribe it was mine and to this day, if you put me with someone else who works in education, I can spend hours talking to that person about all things education. I just click with people who are also drawn to education. So this brings me to today's topic, the teacher personality.

Speaker 2: 4:30

Ball State University labels the teacher personality as the Myers-Briggs personality, enfj, and I do know that I did take the Myers-Briggs eons ago. I do not remember if I was an ENFJ, but we looked this up and it was extroverted. I check that box. Intuitive, I like to feel like I check that box as well Feeling I am definitely a feeler and judging and if you've listened to any of the past episodes, you probably know I can be judgy. So yeah, I probably do fit all of those. However, ball State also gave a little description of what this means, and they said that ENFJs are people-focused individuals who enjoy creating possibilities to help others with their long-term development. They understand the views of others and possess the communication skills needed in many occupations, especially in teaching and counseling. So there's a chance you might be one of these two. Do you think there's?

Speaker 1: 5:42

a teacher personality? Oh, that's a great question and it's not even about what I think. I've recently read an article that we can I'm happy to share and we can link from 2022. The researchers looked at the personalities of almost 5,000 teachers and found that there were some common personality traits and a lot of them go along with the research study that you just quoted.

Speaker 1: 6:07

So, agreeableness, so that you know, wanting to help others and being, you know, deeply caring and I see this all the time too. I mean, there aren't many teachers who don't care for their students, right? We always joke you don't go into education because you wanted to be a millionaire who don't care for their students, right? We always joke you don't go into education because you want it to be a millionaire. You want it to go into education because you care about kids and learning and growth and all of these things. And in my work, too, I also see that most of the teachers that I've encountered, or educators in general, are also very high, achieving high performers, bordering on the edge of perfectionists. Often I was thinking it.

Speaker 2: 6:49

I was thinking it, yes.

Speaker 1: 6:54

And not to say that there's anything wrong with that, by the way it's just when it starts to in the way of your daily functioning. Or it becomes a problem because there's just so much to do and our perfectionistic tendencies want us to do all the things like at 110%. But then when we are crushed with so like such a high workload, it's either kill ourselves to do that or it's really hard to say, well, what's good enough in this situation? Right? And I mean I would also say that I don't know.

Speaker 1: 7:32

I see a lot of teachers who are kind of like people pleasers, you know conflict avoidance. There are definitely those who aren't, but I think that the vast majority don't want to upset parents, don't want to upset administrators, don't want to upset their colleagues, and so then I see that you know to try not to rock the boat. Then there's, like this difficulty with setting boundaries this, you know blurred boundaries, doing more. This, you know blurred boundaries, doing more. And so when you look at that part that you talked about, with the feeling and judging, that's to me that says can start to lead into like resentment and feeling really like overly stressed and because you're stretched so thin and that sort of thing.

Speaker 2: 8:24

I think for myself and I'm thinking maybe this personality type with those specific character qualities that you just mentioned oftentimes I feel like, okay, I'm doing this, whatever thing it is, I'm being helpful and I feel like other people should notice that and, whether they acknowledge it or not, they should take it into account.

Speaker 2: 8:52

So what I mean by that is I found myself in this situation a lot within the schools that I worked in, where I would say, oh, I'm going to do this thing. You know, we need somebody to be in charge of this committee or we need somebody to do this, whatever, this extra thing. And I would say, okay, I will do that. But I expected my colleagues and my administrator to be aware that I had done this thing and not to ask me to do something else. And as soon as you said resentment, that's exactly what came up for me, because then it was like, oh, we know that, you know, oftentimes it was not. We know you're doing this, it was just here's this thing that you have to do on top of that and here's this other thing. And in my mind I would be thinking but I did the big thing Like nobody else wanted to do it, I volunteered to do that, and it felt like a punishment to me.

Speaker 1: 9:44

And.

Speaker 2: 9:44

I do think that it was me placing my own unique judgment on that situation and not having good boundaries around that.

Speaker 1: 9:55

really, yeah, I think it's a combination of personality, characteristics and culture, because, you know, if there is a leadership style that promotes recognition and appreciation, then I think that you would maybe feel more comfortable even declining doing something extra, because you know that they know what you've already done, right, but if they're not prioritized, if the leadership is not prioritizing recognition and appreciation for the things that you've done, then it just kind of makes this um, this culture where it doesn't feel safe to stand up and kind of share what you've been working on.

Speaker 2: 10:41

And you know we've talked about anxiety a bit on here as well, and I just listened to a podcast about anxiety and one of the things that is known to soothe anxiety, according to this other podcast I'm not going to name it because I'm afraid I'm not going to remember the guy's name, but he said, you know, is recognition actually soothes anxiety. When someone says I see you, and I would say that anxiety piece probably is something that many educate. To be perfectly honest with you, if you had asked me last week, am I someone who has anxiety? I would have said no. And then I listened to this podcast and I pretty much ticked all the boxes and so. But I do feel like some of the things that I ticked are part of my personality. So do you think teachers in general maybe were an anxious group?

Speaker 1: 11:42

Yes, that study that I mentioned that looked at those 4,700 teachers and their personalities. One of the personality traits that was identified was this personality trait that it's called neuroticism, which I don't know I don't like that word at all but basically what that means is having a propensity to feel things like anxiety or worry or fear, frustration, guilt, pessimism, and it can be associated with feeling this like heightened reactivity distressors, so like kind of baseline fight or flight, as opposed to, you know, baseline, calm and neutral. So if we're already kind of anxious or fearful, we can get irritated more easily. We can feel a little bit in like emotional instability, that sort of thing, and little things can kind of set us off.

Speaker 2: 12:42

I don't want to take us too far off the topic, but I also read and again, I don't I will put links in for the stuff that I'm saying for this week's show notes. I don't know the names right now, but I also read that there is a common link oftentimes to childhood trauma and anxiety. And then we have this group of people. So I'm just wondering and this is just our opinion here, I mean not based, and maybe you have factual knowledge about this but I'm wondering if some of us because I had a significant amount of childhood trauma some of us are drawn to the career because we had these traumatic experiences as children and we want to make the world better for kids and then, at the same time, those are the very incidences that kind of create this level of anxiety for us.

Speaker 1: 13:40

Yeah, absolutely it can be triggering. Or we could start to have a savior complex and we want to, like you know, do all the things because we don't want this child to suffer in the way that we suffered. And then we start to, like you know, take on so much and absolutely I mean there's so many components, that kind of play into who we are as a person right now, in this very moment, and you know we have our whole lifetime behind us and the things that have happened even just today, like, did we get enough sleep last night? Did I get in a fight with my spouse this morning, right, did I? You know, all these other things it's just we are, we are so dynamic and absolutely our past influence who we are right now and how we show up day to day.

Speaker 2: 14:27

So these are the things, too, that I think are making good teachers good teachers. You know, I know that that perfectionist quality really helped me design some really good lessons, because and I would say that I think most teachers are pretty I don't know, maybe a better word for this than what I'm going to be able to come up with but I was kind of on top of it, like I could have 30 kids in the room and I knew each of them and I could have my back to them and I knew who was going to be misbehaving and who was going to be on task, and we typically have pretty good memories, I think, super organized, super knowledgeable.

Speaker 1: 15:18

I mean, hello, teachers are some of the most brilliant people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. Yes, and my gosh, I think about the podcast that I've been a guest on, and the teachers who are former teachers, who are leading podcasts, are my favorite because you're so organized and you send some bullet points ahead of time and you know it is so profoundly different from anyone who's not been an educator. So there's so many wonderful you know, just like executive functioning skills, that kind of help on, in addition to that empathy and the care and the compassion that you have for those that you are working with, that you're teaching, that you're interacting with.

Speaker 2: 16:06

So I do want to say that she said I'm organized. So if you're thinking about coming onto the podcast, just know, former teacher, I am organized, so email me, me. So all these things that we're talking about, the positives actually we don't even have to look at those things that you know like, like the fact that I want to fit 30 hours into a 24-hour day. That was not a positive for me as a teacher, that I had that character quality, and I know I'm not the only one. But the positive things are.

Speaker 2: 16:48

Some of those things that you know I am thinking lead a little bit to burnout, per our other conversations. Definitely chronic stress, and then I mean the first one that comes to my mind is that we talked about teachers being helpers and that's what drives you and it's hard to have boundaries, especially with time, like I said. So what are some other areas that make educators a bit more vulnerable? And I don't I'm not saying we're the only ones that get burnout, but I think maybe after looking at some of these characteristics, we are a little more vulnerable than other professions.

Speaker 1: 17:28

Yeah, honestly, I think that the four are the high achieving characteristic, deeply caring, perfectionistic and people pleasing.

Speaker 1: 17:40

And how that gets us into trouble is, you know I think I've said it before burnout is so sneaky and in the beginning, when you're passionate and you're full of energy and you know you're doing all these extra things and you're, you're feeling energized by that, it seems okay and that becomes a habit and a pattern.

Speaker 1: 18:01

And then it gets to this point where the habitual doing more doesn't feel energizing, it feels draining and it's really just checking in with ourselves. I think. I mean, I just go back to my own experience and I want, you know, I asked myself what could I have done differently and and had I actually kept a pulse on how I was feeling? Like ask myself really, how are you feeling, amy? You know, what do you need? I think I would have done things a lot differently. But so often and I think this is in all areas of life parenthood, just whatever like we just go on autopilot and we just do the same things that we've always been doing in our relationships, whatever it is, because that's the way we've always done it, but like what happens when that's not serving us anymore?

Speaker 2: 18:51

right. I'm so glad that I'm really glad that you brought this up because, I mean, you've just described the beginning of the school year. I wrote about this in my book. I wrote the teacher in the story. She thinks those first couple of weeks of school we are all our best selves, the teachers, the students. I'm the rock star teacher. They're the perfect students. We're all giving 100%. But that's not sustainable for however many weeks we're in school, you know, for any of us, including the students.

Speaker 1: 19:32

Yeah, and then it's so disappointing when reality comes along, isn't it? It's like oh, and then it's so disappointing when reality comes along, isn't it? It's?

Speaker 2: 19:38

like oh, Especially if you're a high achiever, you think, okay, why am I not achieving this anymore?

Speaker 2: 19:44

Yes, and that's when those feelings of guilt and shame and isolation start to show up too, and then we get into chronic stress and then that leads us to the burnout path. Okay, yep, so I'm going to ask you for some tips, as usual in this area, because now that we know what we're dealing with, we can plan ahead right. I mean, I enjoy volunteering and I love animals, and when I volunteer at the animal shelter, I have a list of things I must go over with myself beforehand, because that's toxic. Volunteering, animal shelter, animal lover, poor boundaries how do you not bring them all home with you? Yes, so my number one rule for myself is I remind myself I can love animals by mucking out their kennels. No, it's not as fun as petting and cuddling them, but that is equally necessary. My second thing I remind myself of is I have a set time. I am working. There are other volunteers coming. I'm not the only animal savior. I'm not the only animal savior. I am not the Noah with the ark there.

Speaker 2: 21:02

Lots of people are coming in. They're doing a good thing, so we are a team. I have to remind myself it's a team effort. And then the last thing I remind myself is back to the saving thing. Again, volunteering is not saving. That is not my role. Again, volunteering is not saving. That is not my role. It is donating my time and energy to an organization that actually can find replacements pretty easily. How do I know? I've been sick? They've managed it without me being there, so that's not a bad thing. And you know they had volunteers before I started volunteering, and when I'm done volunteering at that one, if I move, they're going to find other people. So I have to do that, otherwise my husband will divorce me because I will be like Noah and his ark. We will have a house full of animals and that's not sustainable. So they value me at the shelter. But I'm thinking that this is similar to some of the things maybe we need to do as teachers. I wish I had thought of this beforehand. So what are some tips that you have?

Speaker 1: 22:08

I mean, I think you spelled it out perfectly with your example of volunteering. It's like it's the oxygen mask analogy, right, when we're on an airplane, we know that we must put our oxygen mask on before helping others. So, first and foremost, you've got to take care of you. What does that mean? Does that mean that you are eating well, that you are getting enough sleep, that you are prioritizing your own wellness outside of who you are as an educator, because we are not our profession? Okay, like, if that goes away, you are still you, and what do you need to do on a daily basis to support that person? What are your hobbies that you enjoy doing outside of work? What books do you enjoy reading that aren't related to teaching? You know.

Speaker 1: 23:00

So, taking care of yourself in all dimensions, I think, is the first thing. And then I really like, when we talk about boundaries, like how are you even modeling that for for colleagues? What if there's, like, a new teacher? Can you model for them how to sustain this profession If I'm a new teacher and I'm coming into the building and I'm I just met you, melissa, and I just really respect you and I know you've been doing this, you know, for a long time and you are a master teacher and I see that you are staying until 8 pm every night and you're here at 6 am in the morning. That tells me as a new teacher, well, if I ever want to be as good as Melissa, that's what I need to do, and I don't know. Is that the message that you want to share?

Speaker 2: 23:49

It shouldn't be because we're burning out new teachers. I think the average amount of time they're staying is two to four years, right.

Speaker 1: 23:56

Two to four years, bananas, that's nothing. And so that comes back to a conversation that we had before about how do you support your community? By modeling direct boundaries, and I like what you said about the um work at the, the shelter that they'll find a replacement for you if you're not there, um, consistently. And this is a fine line, right, because it's not. It doesn't feel good when we're told we're replaceable, but at the same time, I let me tell you a story. So I was working for this company. It wasn't an education company, it was a tech company that I actually worked out for about a year and a half after I left education and I really loved my job. I really did, but it was hard, it was a lot of work, it was very intense, it was all virtual, online, 10 hour shifts, four days a week, and it was. It was so intense I would often be.

Speaker 1: 24:56

I was working as a behavioral health coach and I was often chatting because it was text-based with four to seven people at a time. So just imagine having four to seven chat boxes, right? So you talk to one person, you go to the next and within that group there would always be somebody in crisis, so maybe somebody's calling or texting in because they're experiencing domestic violence, or maybe somebody is suicidal, or maybe somebody's talking to me about their substance use addiction. So it was a lot. And then I was my last couple months there, asked to step in in a leadership role, and I did to step in in a leadership role, and I did, and it was all very hard and I was feeling like I need to get out of this, this role, before I burn out. I wasn't burnt out, I was okay and I had a really good relationship with my manager and so I was. You know, I'd met with my manager every other week or so and I was very honest and I was like, yes, I'm keeping up, like I'm everything's fine, I'm not falling behind and I feel this sense of obligation.

Speaker 1: 25:56

And and she knew that I wanted to transition away from this company and do something else. And she also knew that I also was a people pleaser and deeply caring high achiever who didn't just want to like leave. Because I also knew if I stepped away, I was going to put my team in a difficult situation because all of those people I was meeting with, they were going to have to absorb until a new person was hired and onboarded and, can you know, take my my spot. I knew that and I didn't want to put my teammates in that situation because, like I described, it was already hard enough.

Speaker 1: 26:28

And so I kind of had this conversation with my manager off and on for several months and finally it was honestly the most liberating thing anyone has ever said to me. She looked at me and she goes Amy, you are 100% replaceable. If you leave today, they will replace you. It's okay. And for me that felt really liberating because I just like needed the permission to like not kill myself for this, right, yeah, and and I think it depends on how it's said Right, she said that in a very kind and supportive way. That was felt liberating. But truly, the school's not going to fall apart if you don't do that extra thing.

Speaker 2: 27:15

Trust me, I have had several different teaching jobs and all of those jobs still exist and I'm not teaching in any of them. So I think this goes back to something you said earlier, though I think the separation has to come before of you from your teaching role when you are, when you believe you are your career. That makes it harder, I think, because it's being replaced, feels like you gosh. I don't even know what that feeling is, and I know I've had it because and I write a little bit of it again in the book but it's a good process, I think, for any person to go through, but it is that feeling of well, if I'm replaceable, then who am I? You know I've got to be the teacher and so that probably indicates we have some work to do in other areas Right.

Speaker 1: 28:21

And I think that honestly and this was for me that that feeling um of like I can't, I can't leave, I can't leave. And even when I left education, I felt this like I can't, I can't leave, I can't leave. And even when I left education, I felt this like I can't. Part of it was guilt, because I didn't want my teammates to have to absorb my workload, but, to be 100% honest, the other half was like my ego right, like I thought that I was important, like I thought that I was really important and I had to do these things.

Speaker 2: 28:49

I think sometimes we think the way we're doing it is the right way too, and who else is going to do it that way?

Speaker 1: 28:55

I don't do it. Who's going to do it, right?

Speaker 2: 28:57

Yeah, and then we find out that there's more than one way to do the thing most of the time. Yeah, I really like that and I'm really glad that you brought that up because, like I said, I have felt that as well. Like I said, I have felt that as well, but it is liberating. A lot of times. I think that especially educators threaten to leave when they don't really want to leave where they're at. They want where they're at to change, and if they are threatening to leave, what they're really saying is I want you to change this so I have a safe space to stay. But in the day and age we're in right now administrators and school districts they don't have the bandwidth to be sitting down and having those conversations with us. So it is up to us to say our truth, which is you know, I need to leave because this space isn't healthy for me. Can you change it, rather than I'm just going to go?

Speaker 1: 30:01

And I would love to see administrators create a space where people feel supported in voicing their concerns before they get to the point where they have to leave.

Speaker 2: 30:09

Yep, I'm going to try to have a couple of administrators on here, so I'm pretty excited about hearing their perspectives, cause I've had a couple reach out to me, so that's, that's exciting that they want. You know, everybody, everyone in education right now is kind of wishing. I think that we all had more empathy for the individual situations we find ourselves in. Yeah, absolutely so. I think we broke it down today. Teacher personality, it's a thing, and you know what. I'm okay with it. It's a double-edged sword, isn't?

Speaker 1: 30:48

it.

Speaker 2: 30:48

It's a lot of sword, isn't it? It really is, it really is. But again, that's my tribe. So, amy, thank you so much once again.

Speaker 1: 30:59

Yes, thank you for having me. Thank you for facilitating and being so organized. I appreciate you.

Speaker 2: 31:13

Today's episode was produced and edited by me. The theme music is by Otis McDonald featuring Joni Ines. If you know someone who might enjoy these conversations, please share the podcast episodes as much and as often as you can. It's as simple as copying the link you use to access today's episode and sending it in a message or sharing it on social media. I'm a small, independent operation and your shares broaden our audience. Perhaps you or someone you know will be inspired to talk about teacher burnout. If you would like to get your voice on my podcast, contact me via the link on my webpage, totbuzzsproutcom. Coach, speaker and author Rashid Ogunlaro said it may take many voices for people to hear the same message. Join me in being one of the many voices rising up to get the message out around educator burnout. This is Melissa LaFleur. Thank you for listening to taught the podcast.

Speaker 1: 32:18

I wish I knew.

Speaker 2: 32:23

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