TAUGHT
TAUGHT explores real solutions to the educator burnout crisis- because you can’t self-care your way out of systemic dysfunction.
This season, we’re shifting the focus from stories to strategies, and rethinking what workplace wellness in education really means.
Through compelling conversations with experts in education, mental health, and organizational leadership, each episode unpacks the root causes of burnout and offers actionable strategies to help transform schools into healthier, safer, and more sustainable places to work.
TAUGHT
Feeling the Burn: A Kid's Perspective with Mimi
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This episode delves into experiences of teacher burnout from a unique perspective—through the eyes of a student, Mimi. As she shares her transition from the U.S. school system to education in Portugal, listeners gain insight into the pressures faced by both students and educators in a modern educational landscape.
Read the Episode Transcript on the TAUGHT website.
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Explore:
- Learn more about the Total Worker Health® approach from NIOSH
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The Real Story of Teacher Burnout
Speaker 1so what other things do you think you've seen that have made you think that teachers were burned out ? What other things have you observed ?
Speaker 2well . It's usually when the kids aren't doing well , because they try so hard to get the kids doing well , but the kids don't want to learn . They're stubborn about it because they feel like they're being trapped , being forced to learn these things that they don't want to learn . And the teachers they try so hard . How ?
Speaker 1much I miss , not knowing that we're all screwed . A few years ago , I started writing a fictitious story based on my time as an educator . It is called Taught , and the story was partially inspired out of anger and frustration fueled by burnout Okay , actually , it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration fueled by burnout Okay , actually , it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration . But taught has also become a vehicle for me to tell what I thought at the time and in some ways continue to think was and is the real story of teaching . I now realize that my perspective is not everyone's perspective , but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators perspective . But there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators .
Speaker 1This podcast is an extension of that story and I , a former teacher , will interview other educators , asking them to share how they really feel about the current state of education . Why are so many teachers burnout ? Why are so many like me leaving the field ? We likely won't solve any problems or come up with any solutions , but we can create a community of voices that maybe begin the conversation around how educators can take back teaching . I'm Melissa LaFleur . Welcome to Taught the podcast .
Speaker 1I like to be educated , but I'm so frustrated . Hey everybody , today I have a very special guest with me . It is my youngest daughter and her name is Mimi . And Mimi is here to talk with all of us about a kid's perspective on burnout , because she has a lot to say from a student perspective as well as how students actually perceive educators who are right in the middle of burnout , and she may even talk a little bit about what it's like to have a parent who's an educator and right in the middle of burnout . So Mimi is 11 years old , she is currently in the Portuguese school system and she has been in the Portuguese school system for a little over two years . So we're going to start out today talking a little bit about that , about how the Portuguese school system and the US , because she was in the US school system up through third grade , so this year she is in fifth grade . So , mimi , can you tell us a little bit about yourself ?
Speaker 2Yes , as you have said , I'm 11 years old . I like to draw .
Speaker 1So you went to school from kindergarten through third grade in the United States . Can you share a little bit with our listeners about what do you think is the biggest difference between the school system that you were in in the United States and the Portuguese system ?
Speaker 2I've never thought about that system that you were in in the United States and the Portuguese system . I've never thought about that . Um , well , the organization is very different . They're both organized , but in different ways , I guess . Um , it's , it's sort of like the U S . It's very , very organized , um kind of there's a lot of options for about everything . There's options about education , there's options about food , there's options about everything . In Portugal it's you get what you get , don't throw it .
Speaker 1That is quite a bit different than the United States . So you felt like when you were going to school in the US , that within your classes , you had a little more room to do things the way that you need to have them done or want to do them . Is that correct ? Yeah , and here maybe there's one way , and that's the way you have to do it .
Speaker 2Yeah , but I think the Portuguese way works a little better in terms of organization . Everyone knows what they get . I mean , for example , there's a teacher , you get that teacher and the math teacher , and the math teacher teaches like this , and you know that this is how you're going to learn .
Speaker 1And how is that different than in the US ? So in the US you have a math teacher too the US .
Speaker 2So in the US you have a math teacher too . In the US it's not . The teachers don't exactly want to be flexible , but they have to be flexible . The US takes in more feedback of what the parents want .
Speaker 1Oh , that's interesting .
Speaker 2I'm not sure that works better , I'm not sure it works worse , but it's different .
Speaker 1So you're in fifth grade this year and in the United States most of the time , fifth grade is like the rest of elementary school you have one teacher and that teacher teaches all the subjects , and then when you move on to sixth grade in some schools seventh grade , in other schools you have different classes . So when you're in sixth or seventh , depending on which year that district changes it you go to the middle school or junior high , and so you go to one class for an hour for English , a different class for an hour for math , a different class for history . How is it set up at your school for fifth grade ?
Speaker 2subject , there is a different teacher , but sometimes um teachers have two subjects . I don't know why that is , but sometimes it's not even . It doesn't even have to be similar , they just do so do you go to different classes , then um well , the teachers come to us , we stay . Well , the teachers come to us , we stay in the classroom . The teachers come and they teach their lesson , then they leave and another teacher comes and teaches their lesson , so on and so forth .
Speaker 1I see , and can you talk a little bit about the cycles and can ?
Speaker 2you talk a little bit about the cycles . There is first cycle , which you get the same teacher and you do all the things . It goes up to fourth grade and it's nice . You have a lot less options , though you kind of just have to do what everyone tells you . Um . You get more freedom in um second cycle , which is fifth to sixth , um , but everything gets a bit harder . So it sort of it kind of balances it out . You have to have a lot of responsibility , which in the US I don't think the kids have to have . The kids just kind of do what they want . Here you have to be responsible , you have to prove yourself .
Speaker 1So what grades are in third cycle ?
Speaker 2I think it's seventh and eighth .
Speaker 1And ninth , seventh , eighth and ninth . Oh yeah , and then fourth cycle would be what ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it's 10th , 11th and 12th .
Speaker 1And did you know you might not know this , I learned it that in ninth grade you have to take a really big test and that test kind of determines what program you're going to be in for fourth cycle portion , the Portuguese portion . Then you might be put on like this humanities track . If you do really well in math you might be put on like a I think it's like an engineering track . So I know that's a long ways away for you , but you do have a big test that they take in ninth grade here , so I did not know that .
Speaker 2Thank you for informing me .
Speaker 1You're welcome . So , as you know , my podcast is about burnout . Can you kind of tell me what you think burnout is ?
Speaker 2It's . It's different . For sure I have a lot of stress but not a lot of burnout . And it's different for sure I have a lot of stress but not a lot of burnout . Burnout is for me kind of the step after stress , like you just feel this hopelessness , this like strong depression .
Speaker 1And you kind of spend a few days in your bed and you're like , oh yeah , you're right and I'm glad you brought that up . There is a difference between what we call chronic stress and burnout . And chronic stress for long periods of time does lead to that feeling that you talked about of being overwhelmed and hopeless ,
Navigating Student and Teacher Burnout
Speaker 1and when you're there , that is burnout . Do you think you've ever experienced burnout ?
Speaker 2If I have . I don't remember , but I tend to forget about all the bad things and just focus on the happy things , which is a good thing . But then I can't remember anything bad that happened , unless it was serious . So maybe I did have like , maybe I did really bad on a test or something and I did have a little bit of burnout , but if I did I do not remember .
Speaker 1What happened at the beginning of this school year .
Speaker 2It was . I went from like this teeny , tiny little school to a huge school and it was , and I got all these new teachers and there's like 22 kids in my class Well , no , that includes me , but you get the point and , um , it was so stressful . I was carrying like a huge amount of books in my backpack from home to school every single day and it took a toll on my physical health and my mental health and it was very stressful and very overwhelming and it took me a very long time to get used to it .
Speaker 1Do you think you experienced burnout during that time ?
Speaker 2During the very early stages , I probably did .
Speaker 1Because I was gone for about three and a half weeks . I was in the United States , and when I came home , what did we find out ?
Speaker 2what did we find out ? That I had been missing a lot , a lot of assignments and homework and the things that I needed to do that .
Speaker 1I didn't do so . There were a few reasons that that happened , um , so let's talk a little bit about those reasons . What do you think the big reason was ? That you were forgetting your assignments and those types of things ?
Speaker 2I couldn't keep up . There was so much , every , just so much , from different subjects . Because the teachers , they don't communicate all the time , so they don't know if another subject is giving homework or if three subjects are giving homework at the same time . All the homework it's for you to do , it doesn't matter , you got to do it .
Speaker 1You also had to use an iPad to keep track of everything .
Speaker 2And I've never done that before . You needed to check it and I never checked it . It sat in my backpack .
Speaker 1Yeah , so those were two things . One thing that and I was gone , so you didn't really have anybody checking in with you . Your grandmother was here and she was asking every day if you had homework and you were saying no , and then you would get to class and you did have homework . And what did that look like Whenever one of your teachers found out you had not completed your assignment ?
Speaker 2A lot of sighing , a lot of lectures , a lot of and a lot of disappointment and I'm like , oh no , I need to do that , but it doesn't matter , because they're like actually you don't get a second chance , so good luck . And actually you don't get a second chance , so good luck .
Speaker 1Yeah , so how did it feel when I got home and I started going through your stuff and making sure we got everything done ?
Speaker 2I did suffer a lot of burnout . It was so overwhelming .
Speaker 1We had a lot to get caught up on , didn't we ? Yeah , so how did you feel in that moment ? Like you're , you went from being in trouble a lot at school feeling ashamed , not knowing what to do Cause you've still didn't know how to use your iPad . At that point , you still didn't know how to use your iPad . At that point , I had to learn , and then we had to learn together what were you doing to get yourself through the school days ?
Speaker 2during that I went to school . The teacher was like get your books out . Bloddy , bloddy , bloddy , blue . We're going to do that , we're going to do this . I got my books out , I did the things and then , if I didn't understand , I was like , teacher , I need help . And , um , teacher would come over and be like I either , okay , you do it like this or I can't explain that to you . We already learned that a million times and , uh , I had to deal with it and I would put all my books in my bag , be like , finally , I get to go home and be done with the day and do the thing .
Speaker 1But you had some downtime at school . What were you doing during your downtime ?
Speaker 2I would eat my snack , I would sit and think about the things that I wanted to do at home , think about the things that I wanted to do at all . I just I do a lot of thinking . I like to do thinking .
Speaker 1You do a lot of thinking , but you did a lot of something else too , reading . You were losing yourself in your books .
Speaker 2I did do a lot of reading .
Speaker 1I know you like reading , but do you think you did a lot of reading because you wanted to escape the burnout ? Maybe , but I don't remember . So you were burnout . What do you think it took for you to recover from your burnout ?
Speaker 2You helped me , we did the thing . And then the teachers were like , oh yeah , she probably didn't do her own work . And I was like I did . And they were like and I was like Yay , if there .
Speaker 1do you think that there are other kids that suffer from burnout for some of these same reasons ?
Speaker 2There probably are , but I never get to see the side of any kids that I've ever met , so I don't know .
Speaker 1What if a kid's listening to this ? What would you tell them to do if they're in the middle of burnout ?
Speaker 2Push through , and my catchphrase do the thing .
Speaker 1So , if I can repeat what I'm hearing from you , the first thing is you had to have somebody step in and help you .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1So that was me right . I stepped in and we had a conference with your teacher , which you did not want to go to , but we went . Your teacher's very nice . He helped you , he helped me understand exactly what we needed to do . We had that communication and then we came up with a plan , and the plan was you couldn't take your book to school anymore because you were kind of just using that to escape . The second part of the plan was that you and I sat down every night and we went through once we knew what to look for and we started writing things down . You started writing things down in a notebook . So we had a plan and then you started having little successes . Is that true ? Yeah , you would go and you would have done the thing . As you said , just do the thing . You had done the thing , and how did it make you feel when you knew you had done the thing ?
Speaker 2It made me feel better because I did .
Speaker 1You weren't depressed anymore , you weren't overwhelmed anymore . It still took a little while , because you didn't enjoy going through this . It was a lot of work , right .
Speaker 1Some of my biggest enemies procrastination of my biggest enemies procrastination , and so now you have a little help with that . So if other kids are listening to this , we would say have somebody intervene that can help . You can help . You create a plan , yes , and then do the thing , and then you get to feel that good feeling of knowing you did it . And it is a lot of work . We don't want to make it sound like it's not a lot of work .
Speaker 2If you're feeling fancy and you were really proud of yourself for doing the thing , maybe treat yourself for doing the thing .
Speaker 1That's very good . Treat yourself . Yes , so you experienced your own burnout . Have you ever had teachers in your life that you think were experiencing burnout ?
Speaker 2Yes , pretty recently , one of the teachers at my school she it was interesting for me because the kids are like oh , it's the teacher . We don't like her because she makes us do things that we don't want to do as well as we want to do in the subject , because that's what she wants the kids that she teaches to . That's the point to be good , to have a good future . And from that , from the education that they got . And we had all taken our tests and it was Halloween and we received our test answers and none of them were up to her expectations . I got like a 64 , and I'm not sure any of the other kids got much higher , and that was for all of the classes . There were three classes and that was for all of the classes and she was disappointed and just very gloomy . This humor in her had died , died away . There was none left .
Speaker 1How did that make you ?
Speaker 2feel it was very sad for me to see because I tried to respect and show affection for all of my teachers , but you know she just wasn't having it yeah , so what other things do you think you've seen that have made you think that teachers were burned out ?
Understanding Teacher Burnout Through Personal Experience
Speaker 1What other things have you observed ?
Speaker 2Well , it's usually when the kids aren't doing well , because they try so hard to get the kids doing well , but the kids don't want to learn . They're stubborn about it because they feel like they're being trapped , being forced to learn these things that they don't want to learn , and the teachers ? They try so hard .
Speaker 1So how would you describe how a burned out teacher acts or shows up to class ?
Speaker 2Well , it depends on the personality of the teacher , but most of the time they just there's no extra things , no humor , no happiness . Get it done . They come in , they do the things . They just tell the kids what to do . If the kids don't do it , they just they give up . They try and then they don't take any more chances .
Speaker 1So I'm going to switch gears for just a minute . What was it like to have a mom who was a teacher when I was burned out ?
Speaker 2What did that look like for you ? Well , I was young , so I didn't really understand what was happening . I understood that you were sad and when you were sad , it made me sad , and I didn't understand why you were sad . And when you were sad , it made me sad . And I didn't understand why you were sad . And you would come home and you would be like , oh , and I would be like mom , can you play with me ? And you're like no , I'm tired , just please let me sit on the couch . And I didn't understand why you were tired , why you just wanted to just sit and have a minute . I didn't understand . I wanted my mom .
Speaker 1Yeah , there wasn't much left of me to give , was there ? No ? Although , to be fair , I do think that your play stamina is probably higher than any other kids in the world . Is that fair ? Yeah , that's fair . Is probably higher than any other kids in the world . Is that fair ? Yeah , that's fair . Okay , because I did play with you . I had to tell you stories on the way home . I put a lot of energy into you kid . Totally worth it . But just want our listeners to know that I wasn't just sitting on the couch all night .
Speaker 2Some nights .
Speaker 1Yes , those were called the weekend . Mommy gets a break on the weekend . You know , Mimi , something else that I thought about with your situation around burnout is that you have something else going on at your school that made it hard for you to tune in for long periods of time . Do you know what I'm talking about ?
Speaker 2Like in the US or in Portugal .
Speaker 1In Portugal .
Speaker 2In the other school . This school , either school this school , either school , Just well , it was language barrier , I think . It was much , much easier to just let their voices fade into the background . The teacher's like , la-di-da-di-da , you need to do this and copy it on the board . And I was like so can cats survive in the wild for a year ?
Speaker 1Yes , I actually have this problem myself right now . When we go to parties and things like that , I have to focus so hard to understand what they're saying in Portuguese that my brain gets tired and next thing I know somebody asks me a question and I realize I haven't been paying attention and I have no idea what they were talking about . So I think that's a pretty common thing , but I do want our listeners to know that that was pretty real for you the language barrier . However , you speak fluent Portuguese now .
Speaker 2In my opinion , the best way to learn any language is to just be around it all the time , no breaks , because if you stop giving your brain breaks , you will be more tired . Being tired is sad , but your brain will get stronger and it will get used to that and you will speak more fluently .
Speaker 1Well , it's worked for you . I have not had that . You and dad still speak to me in English , which I appreciate .
Speaker 2Well , as long as language barriers also apply to age barriers .
Speaker 1Okay , no need to say anything more about that . So you've talked a little bit about all the things we said we were going to talk about . How do you think that other kids that you go to school with view the burned out teachers , kids that you go to ?
Speaker 2school with view the burned out teachers . Honestly , I'm not sure kids view teachers as people at all . They're like oh it's a lady , she wants to make us learn things we don't want to learn . A person with a partner and a child and a family and a life and a passion . They see them as the lady who wants to make them do things . That's really annoying .
Speaker 1Do you think that ? By the way , I think that last part is how you see me , but it's because I'm your mom , the lady who makes you do things and it's annoying . But do you think that you view teachers a little bit differently because I was a teacher ?
Speaker 2I do , I do , I like , I try to respect them , because it is hard , it's hard to be a teacher them because it is hard , it's hard to be a teacher . When I was , when you were still teaching every single day we had to go to school at the crack of dawn , get in the car and the sun wasn't even up yet , it was cold outside and you had to get me in the car and off we went and we get to school and you have to do a bunch of work before the day even starts and all this stuff , and it was hard and we had to stay away at school too and you had to do things and I couldn't understand why you were tired all the time , but you know , that's okay .
Speaker 2Um , uh , so it is . It's very hard being a teacher , and I learned that in the hard way , so , um , that's why I try to be nice to my teachers .
Speaker 1I'm so happy that you came on to the podcast . Is there anything else you'd like to say before we're done today ?
Speaker 2I'd like to say love yourself , it's important .
Speaker 1I think that's a great thing to end on . Today's episode was produced and edited by me . The theme music is by Otis McDonald featuring Joni Ines . If you know someone who might enjoy these conversations , please share the podcast episodes as much and as often as you can . It's as simple as copying the link you use to access today's episode and sending it in a message or sharing it on social media . I'm a small , independent operation and your shares broaden our audience . Perhaps you or someone you know will be inspired to talk about teacher burnout . If you would like to get your voice on my podcast , contact me via the link on my webpage taughtbuzzsproutcom . Coach speaker and author Rashid Ogunlaro said it may take many voices for people to hear the same message . Join me in being one of the many voices rising up to get the message out around educator burnout . This is Melissa LaFleur . Thank you for listening to taught the podcast .
Speaker 1I have an important reminder . Slash disclaimer to share . The views , thoughts and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency , organization , employer or company . Content provided on this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be taken as professional advice . We encourage you to do your own research and consult with qualified professionals before making any decisions based on the information discussed in this or any other episode . Additionally , any opinions or statements made during the podcast are not intended to malign any religion , ethnic group , club , organization , company or individual Listener . Discretion is advised . Thank you for tuning in .