Taught: The Podcast
Taught is a podcast where educators and others discuss how they really feel about education, burnout, and strategies to make the world and education burnout-free.
Taught: The Podcast
Different not Less with Joel Felsenstein
After navigating my own frustrations with the traditional education system, I've found a deep passion for exploring non-traditional education paths, which led to the creation of "Taught." This episode is a part of my mission to build a community that speaks out about the state of education. Joining me is Joel Felsenstein, an inspiring music educator and advocate for inclusive education, who shares his personal journey as a neurodivergent individual and his empowering work with Rockstar X. Together, we challenge the conventional system and celebrate the motto "different, not less," shedding light on how empowering neurodivergent talents can enrich the educational landscape.
Teacher burnout and government interference are just the tip of the iceberg in a system riddled with complexities. Joel opens up about his family's experiences in England's education system, painting a vivid picture of the struggles faced by educators, often hidden beneath a brave facade. We uncover the financial strains that push schools to hire less experienced teachers, and how this undermines the growth of new educators. Echoing challenges seen across the globe, particularly in the United States, we touch on the troubling education-to-prison pipeline and the pressing need for an overhaul that genuinely prepares students for life beyond the classroom.
For students, especially those who are neurodivergent, standardized education often misses the mark. We discuss the critical need for individualized education plans that honor diverse learning styles and foster creativity. By exploring flexible learning options, we aim to inspire an education system that resonates with students' passions. This episode is a rallying call for an environment where creativity thrives, and every student's unique talents are recognized and nurtured. Join us on this journey to redefine education and create a future where everyone has the opportunity to flourish.
Check out Joel's work here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelfelsenstein/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/rockstarx/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHdvp0gu64Fx09XsatBzL5Q
https://www.instagram.com/joelfelsensteinofficial/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferpalumbo/2022/10/30/why-you-shoul
Season 1 :
Join the Conversation: https://taughtbymelef.blogspot.com/
Interested in being a guest on the podcast? Email promelef@gmail.com. Include your name, role in education, and a summary of your story.
Here's the book that started it all:
Taught: The Very Private Journal of One Bad Teacher
Available @ Amazon in ebook or audio:
https://a.co/d/1rNZ84h
For immediate help use link for resources:
https://www.healthcentral.com/mental-health/get-help-mental-health
Other resources:
Amy Schamberg Wellness: https://www.amyschamberg.com/about
NHS - Resources for Grief and Burnout
https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/feelings-symptoms-behaviours/feelings-and-symptoms/grief-bereavement-loss/
Melissa Anthony MA, LPC Trauma & Grief Counselor
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/melissa-j-anthony-grand-rapids-mi/944381
because I don't really fit into the very special needs. And yet I don't really quite fit into the mainstream. I'm annoyingly staggering, walking like a crab um over two lanes, so to speak. So you've got right. You, I'm literally walking with one leg, feet with one leg, with oncoming traffic coming towards me and the other leg and the other leg's going the other way. So I'm sort of, effectively, I'm effectively, uh, my own category, which I'm nothing wrong with, but it's a bit annoying when you don't quite fit there and you don't quite fit here. But then again, why would you want to fit anywhere? You're not a bloody cube? How much.
Speaker 2:I miss not knowing that we're all screwed. A few years ago, I started writing a fictitious story based on my time as an educator. It is called Taught, and the story was partially inspired out of anger and frustration fueled by burnout Okay, actually, it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration fueled by burnout Okay, actually, it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration. But taught has also become a vehicle for me to tell what I thought at the time and in some ways continue to think was and is the real story of teaching. I now realize that my perspective is not everyone's perspective, but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators perspective. But there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators. This podcast is an extension of that story and I, a former teacher, will interview other educators, asking them to share how they really feel about the current state of education. Why are so many teachers burnout? Why are so many like me leaving the field? We likely won't solve any problems or come up with any solutions, but we can create a community of voices that maybe begin the conversation around how educators can take back teaching. I'm Melissa LaFleur. Welcome to Taught, the podcast. I like to be educated, but I'm so frustrated.
Speaker 2:Today we have the pleasure of welcoming Joel Felsenstein, a passionate advocate for inclusive education and a gifted musician. Joel's deep-rooted connection to the world of education stems from a long line of family members who have dedicated their lives to teaching. As a seasoned music educator himself, joel brings firsthand experience to the table. His unique perspective as a neurodivergent individual offers valuable insights into the challenges and opportunities within the English education system. Known for his inspiring motto different, not less, joel is committed to creating a more compassionate and inclusive world. As the founder and CEO of Rockstar X, he empowers uniquely talented individuals to reach their full potential. His work has even been recognized by Forbes, highlighting his entrepreneurial journey on the neurodivergent spectrum. In today's episode, we'll delve into Joel's experiences within the state education system and explore practical ways to recognize and nurture diverse talents. Join us as we learn how to embrace difference and create a future where everyone can thrive. Joel, thank you so much for joining the podcast today.
Speaker 1:Nice to be here.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to add in for our listeners that I shared with you that I have a cold today, so I sound a bit like you know. In the United States we say you have a frog in your throat. That's exactly what it sounds like. So forgive listeners, forgive any coughing or snorting or anything that goes on on my side. So it's all me. That's not Joel doing that, all right. So, joel, this podcast is about teacher burnout and you have several family members in the education system in England. Let's start. There Are your friends and family in education experiencing burnout, and can you tell us a bit about their experience?
Speaker 1:My family have sort of bowed out of the full-time education now. Not for because they wanted to, they were forced out. But if my father did experience burnout, he very. He hid it extremely well Because he's that kind of person that doesn't show his. He rarely gets angry and hardly raises his voice. So if he was suffering from burnout none of us would have known.
Speaker 2:So do you think that he would have stayed with education if he had not been forced out?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, he would have stayed at the school which, effectively, he and my entire family helped build, not donate. We were heavily involved from the beginning in the school. Yeah, I mean, he would have stayed there until his retirement, which he hadn't even done yet. So now he has to do his own stuff consulting, inspecting, all that stuff.
Speaker 2:So one of the things you had mentioned when we had our pre-interview conversation is that you feel like, at this point in time, there's too much government involvement within the education system.
Speaker 1:Yes, there is a bit too much involvement. Interference, I think, would be the appropriate word here. They want to almost dictate what the education sector and anyone else does in their lives and taking away all sorts of freedom and methods that.
Speaker 2:So I had another guest on the podcast named Sam, and Sam is also from England. He was a teacher and he said that that kind of what you're alluding to, that the restrictions that are being placed on educators by the government actually makes it very challenging not to teach to a test, that there's not a lot of room for teachers to teach to their passions well, there's not really any room for that to happen.
Speaker 1:I think, I think sam must have, um, must have been putting it very politely, uh, but I don't think there is anything. I don't think there is anything. I don't think the governors, governments rather, do want passion to enter. Then the government, in their mind, would lose all control of us.
Speaker 2:And this is kind of a passion for you, right, that everyone gets to kind of seek out their passion and follow it. Yeah, so do you think we had talked? Also, do you think that this is the driving force for burnout amongst educators, because they are just so restricted?
Speaker 1:I say burnout, but I would probably more likely say fed up with the system. That's why you get so many teachers leaving the profession.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're experiencing the same thing in the United States, where we're just having a we call it an exodus an exodus of teachers that are leaving the field, and I don't know if this is the same in England, but we're having fewer students go to school to become teachers.
Speaker 1:I think that might be the same over here as well. I haven't really talked to my dad about the teaching profession since he left. I thought that might be insensitive.
Speaker 2:How long ago did he leave?
Speaker 1:Oh, he, a whole bunch of them, 20 of them. He was one of the 20 that got given their marching orders in 2019.
Speaker 2:Wow, that was right before the pandemic too.
Speaker 1:That was 2021, 22. Because the main reason? We suspect the reason it's all to do with money, but we suspect that the governors of the school. They built a new building on the site of the school. That building then caught fire from an electrical fault, so they effectively burnt through quite a few million pounds and the school is an old, very old building. Anyway. It's a listed building, so it's already a project fix up which they can't put. They can't put in anymore to really put it right, put in anymore to really put it right, because it would cost them over six and a half seven million. Yeah, so they didn't have the money to hire teachers or keep it Good one.
Speaker 2:They had the money to hire lower stand ones, but the ones, the good ones they had, including my dad they had to let go so this is something we also see in the united states is that teachers of a certain age and I would be this age are not as hireable, because the more experience we have and the more education we have, the more they tend to have to pay us, and it's much easier to pay somebody a lower salary. But then this creates issues within the classroom, mainly because teaching has always been a profession, much like music, where you kind of go through an apprenticeship. We don't call it that, we call it student teaching. But you need master teachers, just like you need master musicians to show you the techniques that are tried and true and to also give you feedback. And so what we're finding in the united states is that we are having fewer of those master teachers that can actually mentor the, the ones who need the mentoring I was having a conversation with someone a few months ago.
Speaker 1:I don't know how we both said. We both agreed that the only thing that school that the student prepares you for is quiz me it does. It doesn't teach you anything about life.
Speaker 2:Well, I would say that, at least in the us. It also prepares you to work in factories. However, most factories are becoming automated, so that's not a good model for us anymore. But yes, have you heard of the oh, what's it? The education to prison pipeline? Have you heard of this theory?
Speaker 1:No, not yet, but I'm sure it's accurate.
Speaker 2:I will send you a link about that, because there is a body of evidence that, particularly how we treat students from a certain age and their demographics, that we treat differently Sometimes that's based on race, sometimes it's based on ability, sometimes's based on gender um, that all of these set a fairly large group of people up to be very successful in the prison setting.
Speaker 1:So you're on to something there, you and your friend you're not actually taught in school on how to make a living. You're taught how to make someone else's dreams come true, essentially not yours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're taught how to behave and follow orders. Yeah, sit in a seat quietly. Yeah. So your experience as an educator is from the perspective of someone who gives music lessons, and some may say that this area of education is more immune to what we call burnout because you have some ability to control your student population and the hours that you work. Do you think this is true, or is this also an area where people who are teaching music lessons are becoming frustrated and feeling the burn of burnout?
Speaker 1:Well, I think, if you're teaching music lessons in particularly schools, you can't control who you're teaching. That is true, that is true, that is true. So, whether you get any teaching done, or whether you're just shouting yourself hoarse for the class to quiet down and um listen, by the time that happens, lessons, lesson's over and you learn you taught nothing. Um is I, I don't, I don't, I don't agree with that. That, um, that uh, music teachers are immune.
Speaker 2:Immune to uh burnout I think you make a really good point. My daughter's? I think you make a really good point. My daughter's fiance is a band director and as a musician.
Speaker 1:When you have multiple people that you're teaching, that's quite a task yes, um, but also with also with the red tape surrounding education in schools. You have to teach, even in music. You can't just teach practical stuff and you can't teach your own books. You have to teach. I don't know what it is in the US or Portugal, but you have to teach the examination approved board of Trinity. You have to teach theory and practical.
Speaker 1:Now, coming from a student's point of view, you've lost me at the word theory, because you're teaching them all the stuff, from classical music right up to the bright, out to pen and paper and all that stuff. And then they're thinking what's this got to do with what I want to play?
Speaker 2:you're right, especially younger students, because for them to go in and learn anything, they're wanting to know how it applies to them and what they can do with that information to me it's not.
Speaker 1:It's not actually for most, for most bands and stuff and even orchestras. I don't know if it's so much the case, but no one gives a crap what an A4 piece of paper says you can do. They only care what you actually can do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's going to get us into some, and I know you have a lot to say about this, because that's going to get us into some and I know you have a lot to say about this because. So let me take us back to. I'm going to take us back to your school experience, and so what we have discovered throughout the podcast is that burnout has some very noticeable things. When you're with someone who's burnout you can tell those people oftentimes are very negative, they tend to be apathetic, they're very tired, not very passionate. So would you say, during your experience as a student in in the state system, you that you encountered educators that were burned out and what was the impact?
Speaker 1:I went through four schools wow, tell us about that because none of which fitted, which was equipped to, with a proper education unit for people like me, every school in the world is all mainstream. And then you have this little. Normally you have this afterthought room called the send unit, which is useful but useless at the same time because those teachers will get burnt out fairly easily and you don't actually have any lessons in there in the unit. You have them all in the mainstream, so it also sort of defeats the purpose anyway. And then you read about, and then of course mainstream, special needs and mainstream. Then you read about bullying, and then bullying leads to suicide and all that stuff um, which I get to the form of extreme form of burnout. But well.
Speaker 1:I definitely think students can feel that as well, that they can feel burned out, and that's why you see so many bald teachers. There are a lot of bald teachers, you're correct about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I I like to think that we do things a little differently in the United States, but you're right, we do mainstream most of our students. Over the years I had a lot of students who were on the neurodivergent spectrum that stayed the majority of the time in my class. We call it a resource room. The resource room was really used for those moments when a student couldn't regulate their emotions, and so they could go there and have that opportunity to have some time to kind of get back into a safe space emotionally. However, I do think that all educators need to make accommodations for all students.
Speaker 2:In the United States we have individualized education plans and we call those IEPs, and my last couple of years teaching I had a friend say to me, before this is all said and done, every kiddo that comes through the door is going to have an IEP and ideally that's kind of what education should look like, right, because I have different learning needs than other people. So do you? We're not going to get the material the same way? So do you? We're not going to get the material the same way. And I feel my personal opinion is that especially primary school is to give those foundational building blocks we're all going to have to learn to add and subtract. We're all going to have to learn how to read. But when you get up into year five, year six, year seven, at that point I really feel like students begin to find their passions and the things that they enjoy. And this sit 45 kids in a room and put a book in front of everyone doesn't work so well for them work so well for them.
Speaker 1:No, I didn't. I don't go. I don't think any kid thinks. Why on earth will I need to go to a gigantic library to read a book when we can just listen to audio versions on our phones? And um to audio versions on our phones and other ways of actually listening, and you can still learn what words are even without reading by listening to them.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 1:They may not be able to spell them correctly, but you will be able to certainly know know what they are well I think this speaks to kind of what you were saying.
Speaker 2:If you have a very high aversion to reading, oftentimes as educators we need to sit down and think about what is the learning objective here. And if a student has those building blocks, if they understand the alphabet, they understand how that works in their language and they understand that these words put together make meaningful communication happen, and then their preference is to get their information through the auditory process. Those options definitely need to be available to them, and I also would say this goes for writing as well. Over the years I have found I have a high population of students that had creative genius, but to sit down and actually physically write things out was an arduous task for them. So those things aren't challenging to make accommodations for in our current technological world.
Speaker 1:But the only obstacle that stands in that way is the red tape.
Speaker 2:Yes, actually, honestly, it goes back to those damn tests. Honestly, it goes back to those damn tests. I mean, I have a friend here and she works tutoring students. I always mess up this test that you have to take in England, is it the G-C-S-E?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Oh, I got it right and there's a whole portion of that that is handwritten that you have to physically handwrite. And she said I don't think there's an accommodation for that is there. Do they allow students to do that in any other way, or does it have to be handwritten?
Speaker 1:to do that in any other way, or does it have to be handwritten? Well, they allow students to um use a computer with the, with exception, but the only uh, where the computer has to be set up by the school to not have internet and stuff like that and the grammar has to be turned off yeah so it has't be turned off.
Speaker 2:Well, that definitely takes a portion of students out of the equation, right? How do you even get the good marks on that, however, maybe you went to four different schools, but you yourself have achieved success and you've made it your mission to help other people who are neurodivergent, and I don't think that's your only focus group. I think you want everything to be out there for everyone to attain the same success. So kind of walk us through that journey. For you School, not a success us through that journey.
Speaker 1:For you, school not a success. Anything I, anything, I do, anything, anything that school taught me is uh, I have to rip up the entire book that's exciting and forget everything that I was taught, and because everything that I was taught was a lie which didn't prepare you for the for life. Nothing really truly prepares you for after school or after college, unless you live it.
Speaker 2:Was your college experience different than your your other educational experience?
Speaker 1:I went to the only special, the only set, the only special needs college in the entire country and was it easier for you there not really, because I don't really fit into the very special needs, and yet I don't really quite fit into the mainstream.
Speaker 1:I'm annoyingly staggering, walking like a crab um over two lanes, so to speak. So you've got one. You I'm literally walking with one leg, feet with one leg, with oncoming traffic coming towards me and the other leg and the other legs going the other way. So I'm sort of effectively, I'm effectively my own category, which I'm nothing wrong with that, but it's a bit annoying when you don't quite fit there and you didn't quite fit here. But then again, why would you want to fit anywhere? You're not a bloody cube?
Speaker 2:but you know what, joel, I think that you are creating a pathway and kind of opening this up, because you are your own unique person. But there are many people on the neurodivergent spectrum that also school was not a good fit for them, but being in a special needs program also was not a good fit for them, and so you know it's just their last thought, especially program.
Speaker 1:They're not really a program. It's a room where people, where, in short, the school puts people which they don't know how to handle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, last time I checked that was prison I think that there are, at least in the united states. They lack resources, adequate resources, for our people on the neurodivergent spectrum and a lot of times what you get is someone who has zero experience working with them and they don't have the knowledge base to help those, especially children, I mean young children who are figuring it out. They don't have the knowledge base to help them figure out the pathways that work for them.
Speaker 1:And then they complain when they end up on the wrong side of the law.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You can't have it both ways. You either don't help them and then you need to expect them to end up going against the system, or you help them and they stay on the right side, where you want them to be yeah, because there's not much forgiveness when they get on the wrong side of the law is it if it's our fault, for it's our fault for doing something right, also our fault for doing something right all through school, but it's also our fault for the crap you made in the first place.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, and I think this is one of the good things about inclusion, because I do think that other children are much better at teaching other children what is socially acceptable and what is not. I'm going to tell a story. I had a student I'm not going to say what his name was, but I had him in a year six classroom, sixth grade, and he really enjoyed the girls in the classroom, like at recess at lunch. He wanted to be with the girls and he also wanted to go under the desk and lay his head on their laps, and so I had to discuss with the girls who felt like they were being helpful to him and somewhat treating him like a baby that this is behavior that's not going to be acceptable. It is not acceptable to go through life finding a pretty girl and laying your head in their lap. I'm sure if it was more, guys would be doing this, but no, we don't allow this. And so those girls were really good.
Speaker 2:I never had to do anything more than say don't let him do this, and then they would talk to him about it. They would say you know you can't do this, and this is why, yes, we care about you. It's fine for you to sit with us and we like you, but we don't want you to put your head in our lap and that was the end of it. I never had to do anything. So I do think that kids oftentimes are very good about doing that, but, as you mentioned earlier, kids can also be very good about seeing someone's behavior as something that they have a right to bully them about. So it's a slippery slope.
Speaker 1:Not to mention, if you want a kid to behave as an adult, we need to practice what we actually preach. How can we expect the same for our kids or any kid who sees an adult I don't know let's say stealing or beating someone up? They think they very much must think that's all right, that's acceptable, you're doing it must be okay so you finished college yep and then were you a musician in college. Yes, I was quite musical in college.
Speaker 2:yes, so when did you start your company and how did all of that unfold?
Speaker 1:I could have really picked a better time to do this. I started it.
Speaker 2:That's a great time to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, and it isn't. It isn't. It isn't, um, it isn't, because all companies need it, need investment, and then you're starting it in a situation where most people are actually pulling out of that game, um, and they still are, and it is. If you are born with the silver spoon in your mouth and you can, and you can bankroll your entire company itself 100%.
Speaker 2:You know I have people ask me all the time how much money I make on the podcast Cause they're like, oh, I think I want to do a podcast. I'm like I make zero money. I actually spend money on my podcast. So if somebody you know, I'm I'm hoping one day I get paid for doing this. But there are many ways we can get paid.
Speaker 1:One of the ways, one of the obvious ways, is affiliate marketing and sponsorships.
Speaker 2:I agree, but, like I said, there's many ways we can get paid for me. I get to meet people like you. And I think that's pretty good payment, you know.
Speaker 1:I enjoy talking to people about education.
Speaker 2:And you have quite a few followers. So I do want to take a moment and mention that I will link all of your projects in today's show notes so that people know how to get in touch with you and how to follow you and kind of follow your journey, because your journey was more than so. Let's unpack the company a little bit. Your company is about connecting with other people who are very talented. You have a podcast that you do as well, and it is about connecting people on the neuro neurodivergent spectrum and empowering them to pursue their dreams, like you have. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:Yes, their dreams, like you have. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:yes, so at this point, how many followers do you have?
Speaker 1:on linkedin my personal one or um either one on linkedin.
Speaker 1:This is this is coming from. I've had had LinkedIn since 2009 because I was at the stage of ladies are interesting, so every single social media platform is a dating website. No, it's not, and it was free to sign up. So I was like, okay, fine, let's sign up to another platform. So this is only from two years ago, so before I was actually using LinkedIn in the right way, um, I, um, I was only on about three, about 30 or something people that I actually know, I actually knew of, uh, friends, I thought we're just another facebook, another tinder and um, but now I've got over 500, over 5 000 connections and 6 followers. I've only been using it for two years. Yeah, the company itself has got over 1,200 followers on that page.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I you know, of course researched you and you also have subscribers on your YouTube channel. So, like I said, I'll link all of that.
Speaker 1:And that may be monetized by next year as well.
Speaker 2:Very nice. I will send monetizing vibes to you. You've had some very interesting people connect with you though via your company as well as via your music, so let's start with your music. First, tell us about some of the people that have connected with you.
Speaker 1:come on your podcast, because they're quite well known well, I've only had one well-known person on my musical, on the musical podcast. Well, he might not be well-known, but the band certainly is, because he's only 10 years older than me. That's scary, but no, he might use other social media. I reach out to him on Facebook. Ironically, mike Truscott, current drummer for Wishbone Ash um, I guess you can say progressive rock band, I'm not entirely sure what they are in terms of your company.
Speaker 2:What connections have you made there?
Speaker 1:I've had people I'm completely unknown people, just my general connections on linkedin on on the show most um have been in the education sector as well ranting and raving about why on earth that system is broken. I've had regular my general connections and then recently well, not recently, one year ago I had not many people outside the US who probably know him, him, but I had blaine bartlett on my um, on my, on my podcast at one point during the time and he'd become a very, uh, close friend oh nice.
Speaker 2:well, you know, one thing I noticed as I went through and I began researching you is that you are making waves in this area. You're making waves as a musician and you're making waves as someone on the neurodivergent spectrum who is saying people, we need to think outside the box. We've got talented human beings here that are being written off and not given time to showcase their talents. And, of course, I've watched a few of your episodes and the guy that I'm like, I want to talk to him. I don't remember his name I'm terrible with names but he was a burnout specialist.
Speaker 2:He is a burnout specialist and I'm like, ah, I've got to talk to him at some point. So you're getting people from all walks of life that are wanting to to just kind of support you on your journey, and I think that's really cool yeah, I would, I would love, I would really love, because I know for a fact he is dyslexic.
Speaker 1:I would love richard branson. Sorry, sir, richard branson, I still have respect for him, he's not. He's not giving me any reason not to respect him. Uh, yes, so I'm plenty have.
Speaker 2:But so that's your, your top interview. You would like to do as Sir Richard Branson.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean he's dyslexic and he does suffer a lot of neurodiverse community as well.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, we're putting it out there, if anybody knows Sir.
Speaker 1:Richard Branson, very difficult to get hold of, very, as you can imagine oh, I can't.
Speaker 2:I'm right there with you that is.
Speaker 1:That is a kind of what I would. Why was it going to be expecting the challenge um to be? Uh? When I contacted the wishbone ashtrama, I was expecting that kind of level of lack of response. Yes, well.
Speaker 2:I understand because I contact everyone who's. If I use an article or something for part of my research, or if I use a song or I reference something, I always contact the people or attempt to. But I would say I probably get 5% of those people ever respond to me at all, and when they do, I'm always shocked.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially when they do it themselves. Always shocked, yeah, especially when they especially when they did themselves, as opposed to their team does it feel good to be on this side of things now? Yes, but I wish it came earlier. I wish I didn't really give to.
Speaker 2:I really really didn't care, care when I was about 10 or 12 years younger in my 20s, and then I had this idea back then and then yeah, well, let me ask you this what are your recommendations for educators and actually could be anyone listening on how we can help accomplish your goal to foster creativity in the workplaces, schools, how we can encourage individuals to not have to mask and promote a culture where creative minds can thrive?
Speaker 1:Now I would say completing the rule rule book, but then you go five. But if anyone has watched, and if anyone hasn't watched school of rock, what the heck is the matter with you? Um great movie, but, yes, exactly, and even even more great play. Um great musical. Sorry, um, but for those of you who haven't watched school rock and I strongly recommend you do and b, I believe that jack black was on the right path all right.
Speaker 2:I mean honestly there's many great things you can take away from Jack Black in that performance.
Speaker 1:He, apart from the blatant identity test, yes, wow.
Speaker 2:Nobody's perfect.
Speaker 1:Apart from that, if he's done it the right way by not doing that, but by just literally going there and proving to everyone that if you are genuinely care about people, you are not a criminal, so you don't need to background check malarkey. I'm not a criminal, so you don't need to. You don't need to always background check malarkey. I understand why now it is necessary. I mean, I agree with it. But he had the right idea, went into the school, ripped up the rule book and actually went down to kids' levels and discovered their passion and what that meant. He actually found out what they liked to do.
Speaker 2:He did, and it brought out the best in all of them.
Speaker 1:When you go down to the kids level, you would eventually be bringing them up to your level, but you don't want to bring them up to your level when they're kids. They're kids here we. They are not adults and they need to be understood as such. So why do we waste 13 years in the UK I don't know what it's like in the US, but 13 years in the UK, um, trying to bring the students up to our level?
Speaker 2:yes, that's a really different way of looking at education and I honestly I've never thought of it that way, how we are expecting the students to rise to what we understand rather than and the role model which you tend to produce.
Speaker 1:Best advice I can give is to give teachers which doesn't actually break the rules at all, in the slightest. If you want to keep your job, if you want students to come to your level, treat the situation like as if you're adopting a stray animal the first time. When they first come into the classroom and notice a whole bunch of students and a whole bunch of new people, they're not going to be very warm or wanting to come up to you and say hello. And if they are, some of them are yeah, but um, and introduce themselves in their entire life history no, like much like a much like much like a dog or any animal really that's being adopted by a new family.
Speaker 1:Having lived in the town for a while, would like you to retreat and be more reluctant to come to school, let alone learn anything. If we are too not heavy handed, that's heavy, yeah, well, it's sort of similar to the environment. So what I did with an example my dog is yeah, I brought him home. I did not look at him. I well, I did look at him. I didn't look at him, I didn't stare at him, and then I found out. He came to me. You want your students to come to you, right, and if you continue to uh effectively chase them, you're not going to get anywhere. You're going to get resentment and then they will start acting out.
Speaker 2:I can tell you any behavior issues that I have seen almost always come down to a power struggle. You know where somebody feels like their power is being taken away.
Speaker 1:We've had the rule book, but do it right and for the right reasons. Go down to the student level and find out what interests them yep I.
Speaker 2:I think you've given us some really valuable insight. Um, you are my first person from the neurodivergent community to come on and do the podcast, and I hope, not my last one. I have had a lot of special education teachers come on the podcast, though, and I think that this is something that needs to change. Probably in the world, nobody comes out of the womb knowing everything. Knowing everything, and oftentimes at least in the US people are so afraid to ask for help, and I feel like teachers need to be helping each other and sharing their experiences, and you, coming on here and sharing your experience as a student in that setting, can do nothing but help us all be better teachers and better people who deal with all populations. Is there anything else you want to talk about before we end today?
Speaker 1:One other piece of advice I would give to teachers and experts. I would give to teachers and experts, particularly around the special needs we are not all the same. Don't treat us like we are, and if you want to find out what different things we need, and not give us a whole package which some of us actually don't need, then speak to us.
Speaker 2:I love that and it needs to be said a lot.
Speaker 1:And you're not an expert until you actually understand what the hell is, what the hell, until you understand that.
Speaker 2:For sure. I just want to say thank you so much for taking your time to come on the podcast and I'm going to repeat again all the links to things that we talked about we will put in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Today's episode was produced and edited by me. The theme music is by Otis McDonald featuring Joni Ines. If you know someone who might enjoy these conversations, please share the podcast episodes as much and as often as you can. It's as simple as copying the link you use to access today's episode and sending it in a message or sharing it on social media. I'm a small, independent operation and your shares broaden our audience. Perhaps you or someone you know will be inspired to talk about teacher burnout. If you would like to get your voice on my podcast, contact me via the link on my webpage taughtbuzzsproutcom. Coach speaker and author Rashid Ogunlaru said. Dot com Coach speaker and author Rashid Ogunlaro said it may take many voices for people to hear the same message. Join me in being one of the many voices rising up to get the message out around educator burnout. This is Melissa LaFleur. Thank you for listening to TAUT the podcast.
Speaker 2:I have an important reminder. Slash disclaimer to share. The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer or company. Content provided on this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be taken as professional advice. We encourage you to do your own research and consult with qualified professionals before making any decisions based on the information discussed in this or any other episode. Additionally, any opinions or statements. Thank you for tuning in.