TAUGHT
TAUGHT explores real solutions to the educator burnout crisis- because you can’t self-care your way out of systemic dysfunction.
This season, we’re shifting the focus from stories to strategies, and rethinking what workplace wellness in education really means.
Through compelling conversations with experts in education, mental health, and organizational leadership, each episode unpacks the root causes of burnout and offers actionable strategies to help transform schools into healthier, safer, and more sustainable places to work.
TAUGHT
Transforming Math Education with Jerry Knoelke
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Discover how to transform math education and combat teacher burnout with insights from Jerry Knoellke, a retired high school math teacher and former AT&T business researcher. Jerry brings his wealth of experience to the table, discussing the hurdles educators face and offering his PRESS method, found in his book, Math Is Not Magic, as a practical solution to make math less intimidating. Through this episode, you'll learn how consistent teaching strategies and understanding cognitive development can enhance the learning experience for students and ease the pressures on teachers.
Check out Jerry's book, Math is Not Magic, here: https://a.co/d/j9SoyOq
Visit Jerry's website: https://mathisnotmagic.com/
Contact and/or connect with Jerry: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerry-knoelke-2a104b72/
Read the Episode Transcript on the TAUGHT website.
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Teaching Math Effectively and Avoiding Burnout
Speaker 1Actually , once I found out that that book was needed , according to neuroscience , and that no one had one yet , I knew exactly what to do , because I just used my method instead of someone else's , and like I have to explain here too , is that everyone's method is great . There's no bad method , really , and my method's not superior to anyone else's . It's just that you have to be consistent , and people were not being consistent . They still aren't being consistent . So when you teach a kid six different ways to do something , they can't put it together and make one way out of it because they don't have that part of their brain yet . That does that kind of operation .
Speaker 2How much I miss not knowing that we're all screwed . A few years ago , I started writing a fictitious story based on my time as an educator . It is called Taught , and the story was partially inspired out of anger and frustration fueled by burnout . Okay , actually , it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration fueled by burnout . Okay , actually , it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration . But taught has also become a vehicle for me to tell what I thought at the time and in some ways continue to think was and is the real story of teaching . I now realize that my perspective is not everyone's perspective , but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators perspective , but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators . This podcast is an extension of that story and I , a former teacher , will interview other educators , asking them to share how they really feel about the current state of education . Why are so many teachers burnout ? Why are so many like me leaving the field ? We likely won't solve any problems or come up with any solutions , but we can create a community of voices that maybe begin the conversation around how educators can take back teaching . I'm Melissa LaFleur . Welcome to Taught the podcast .
Speaker 2One editing note for this week's episode . Our guest's name is Jerry Henolke . Hey everybody , today's guest is here to talk about what is becoming an increasingly bad word in education math and I know even when I say it I have listeners out there that are cringing . Actually , my daughter's in the other room right now doing her math homework and she's definitely cringing . The last couple of years that I was teaching , I noticed that my students in fifth grade were more and more what I like to call math resistant and , despite being really a reading and writing teacher at heart , I found myself becoming a huge advocate for making math a bigger focus in the classroom . I think part of this is because I was noticing more and more students coming to me with fewer and fewer basic math skills , and we have to have the basics in order to do the fifth grade math .
Speaker 2My guest today is Jerry , and Jerry is here to talk to us about how math does not have to be a bad word in education .
Speaker 2Jerry believes that math can be saved by using what he calls the PRESS method , and I really hope that what he talks about today can help some of us change the way that we think about math . Jerry Nolke is retired from the AT&T business research team , and he also had a career as a high school math teacher . These two experiences led him to write his book Math Is Not Magic , and it will be linked in today's show notes . And he is also using his knowledge and time in the teaching world to put resources in the hands of all math teachers , and that includes you parents , who are out there trying to supplement the math education of your children . His goal is for all of us to be able to teach math in effective ways that kids will understand . Today , jerry's going to talk to us about some of the things he thinks are leading math teachers to burnout , as well as how teaching his PRESS method will help math teachers avoid some of the pitfalls of burnout . Jerry , thank you for joining us today .
Teaching Logic
Speaker 1Hello Melissa , when I started teaching math , I found that the biggest really only challenge in teaching was to explain to the students how to solve word problems . Now , the main purpose of math is to teach students how to think logically . Now , the main purpose of math is to teach students how to think logically , and word problems are the heart of explaining math logic . I did my research . I found most math teachers were no more successful than I , so I looked into it . Thankfully , I found that neuroscience had recently discovered the cause of students not being able to convert English into math-ish . Neuroscience found that the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is the part of your brain used to analyze abstract thoughts . Word problems fall into the category of abstract thoughts . What they found is that the DLPC does not mature in the average person until their mid-20s . Yet today we are still asking the average teenagers to use what they do not yet have because they're not that old . The 10% that mature early are the A students . The other 90% need us to change how we teach math . Right now , we explain many different methods , hoping the students will piece them together , but neuroscience explains that this will not work for the 90% that do not yet have a mature DLPC . They need to have one consistent , universal method given to them that they can focus on and learn so they will not be confused by multiple methods . I searched and found no one doing this , so I wrote the primer .
Speaker 1Math is not magic . The primer explains one consistent , universal method for solving word problems across all math subjects taught in high school . So , as of right now , there's only one primer out there for anybody . So that gives me an advantage . If we can just get people to do it . If we put this primer into all math curriculum , we will be providing the 90% with what neuroscience has explained they need . If all teachers , students and parents use one consistent , universal method , then the 90% can focus on the steps they need to learn and follow . They'll stop being confused by multiple methods due to their immature DLPC , dorsolateral prefrontal cortex . Yes , no matter who they ask for help , they will get consistent help and will move forward . Imagine a world filled with logical people . Now . That will stop teachers from feeling burned out .
Speaker 2Well for sure , I definitely agree with you . Some sort of methodology behind the pedagogy would be very nice . I only taught math up to sixth grade , taught math up to sixth grade , but even then I know that oftentimes what I was doing looked much different than what the other sixth grade teacher was doing . We just had different teaching styles in general . But also my sixth grade teaching partner for three years best teaching partner I ever had , but he was male and he actually and I don't want to say you know , this is not a gender thing , but I was I was creating like all of these you know scenarios and all of these things and he was doing his teaching style was just completely different . His scenarios were even different and we ended up coming up with we had an intervention time that we created ourselves because we found that kids were lacking building blocks . But even those building blocks he taught differently than I did . I had a lot of words . I'm an English language arts teacher at heart , so I used a lot of words and he did not .
Speaker 1And you're female too .
Speaker 2That's true . He did a lot of kind of forcing kids to mess up and redo . That was kind of his teaching style .
Speaker 1Interesting Okay .
Speaker 2Yeah . Yeah , I mean they weren't necessarily getting the right answers , but he just had them do the same kinds of problems over and over and over until something clicked for them .
Speaker 1So that's the key right there , over and over again .
Speaker 2I was an explainer and they weren't getting it half the time , no matter how I explained it .
Speaker 1Now you know why Cause their DLPC was not mature yet .
Speaker 2Yeah , well , exactly how long were you in education , and can you tell us how that experience ?
Speaker 1shaped your drive to write this book Well , I retired from AT&T and business research in about 50 years old and then I taught for 10 years and , as I got carried away and explained earlier , after several years , I looked into other teachers for answers and getting none . Neuroscience explained to me that they had recently discovered what we need . Finally , no one was doing . What neuroscience discovered was the best path to follow . I took the challenge and I'm looking to get everyone involved . This is my quest , not my guest , but my quest . My quest is my guest , my quest , my quest is my guest to help math teachers and teach logic to our students yeah , how long did it take you to write your book ?
Speaker 1um , actually , once I found out that that book was needed , according to neuroscience , and that no one had one yet , I knew exactly what to do because I just used my method instead of someone else's , and like I have to explain here too , is that everyone's method is great . There's no bad methods , really , and my method's not superior to anyone else's . It's just that you have to be consistent , and people were not being consistent . They still aren't being consistent . So when you teach a kid six different ways to do something , they can't put it together and make one way out of it because they don't have that part of their brain yet that does that kind of operation . So we have to be consistent , like your old teacher friend there that just keeps beating it into them , and as long as they have just one way to look at , they can finally pick it up eventually .
Speaker 2Well , you know , what's interesting is that we had some changes happen in education and with the invention of the Common Core and kind of putting that out there . I mean , like I said , my love and passion is English language arts and that's what I taught most of my career , until I went into the elementary classroom and then I had to teach all the subjects and by the time I got there , Common Core had been in for a bit and every curriculum that I used I used three different math curriculums . Every one of them taught that you had to teach more than one method to solve any sort of equation , and it was very interesting to hear your take on this , which is that that potentially is creating barriers rather than helping kids .
Speaker 1And it's not just me , that's all of neuroscience . They're the ones who discovered it . I'm just passing the word on from them because they're not passing it on very well themselves . But all of this science out there showed that well , here you got a brain that you want to use , and the parts you want to use isn't there yet . And so now the kids are developing this blank stare because they can't follow 10 different ways to look at something . And so now the kids are developing this blind stare because they can't follow 10 different ways to look at something . And so we're old enough . We think they should be able to because we can . But no , there's a difference . Our brain actually believe it or not is more mature than a kid's brain .
Speaker 2Well , I mean , I can just compare my own brain to like 10 years ago and I know that changes happen every decade . All of us have different things happen within our brains , so that makes sense .
Concerns About Math Education and Burnout
Speaker 2Well , this podcast is about burnout and it's kind of something interesting . I told my husband . I said man , I've got to do my research on this because I'm quite certain that math teachers burn out much more quickly . And my husband said why do you think that ? He said I'm going to bet that you find out that they're burning out at the same rate that everybody else is burned out . And he wasn't wrong . But I wasn't wrong either .
Speaker 2Because there just isn't any research out there that I could find . Because there just isn't any research out there that I could find Listeners . If somebody out there has come across content-level teaching and who's burning out more quickly , please let me know . But I didn't find any big longitudinal studies for math teachers specifically . We have a math teacher shortage , for sure , but we did not have . There was nothing out there saying oh , math teachers are burning out any more quickly than any other part of education , but we do know .
Speaker 1A quick note on your shortage there from what I've discovered since I was in both the business world and the math world is that I found a lot of people coming from schools that were very smart in teaching math but they quit because they could get more income by going to the business world .
Speaker 2So that's what I was going to say , Jerry , is that math education can attract the right people . Well , the burnout rate wasn't high . What's called attrition ? The attrition rate for math teachers was pretty high that they just don't stick with it for very long .
Speaker 1Because they can make more money by doing less work .
Speaker 2Teaching is a lot of work , you're right about that ?
Speaker 1Yes , it is , that's another burnout reason .
Speaker 2So do you have a burnout story for us ?
Speaker 1I had a student say to me one time why should I learn math ? Forget math , just teach me something that will help me make the most money . And they did not understand that they need to learn logic . And that was my spirit killer right there . Because logic is probably once you're old enough , like we are now , we can see that logic is important and since we've got that DLPC going for us , we can think of several different ways of doing the same thing . And that's where English has actually more fun than math for students , because they can look at things from different ways and be more creative , whereas math is not a matter of being creative .
Speaker 1It's a matter of being correct .
Speaker 2Yes , yes , yes , but there's also a similar bond with critical thinking skills , though and finding patterns and trying to get to your answer by knowing how to look at things critically . So there's a and I don't know if this is true or not . I probably shouldn't say it on the podcast without doing the research , but I'm a grammarian . I really like grammar , which is the side of English that most people don't like .
Speaker 1But man , I loved it , so that doesn't mean you're a grandma .
Speaker 2Not yet . Not yet I have a daughter getting married . So you never know , but right now I'm not . But you know when I love to diagram sentences and somebody did a research study at some point don't know who it was , it's really old but they found that people who like to dissect sentences tend to be stronger mathematicians , and I think it really is just that same piece of finding patterns . And I like to solve puzzles . You know , all of that is kind of the same . It makes my brain work in the same way .
Speaker 1Yeah , if I had a motto , my motto would be the word patterns . That's what life's about for me .
Speaker 2Yeah , especially with you working with the word problems you know and then having to find the mathematical patterns in there . But I can see where it would be disheartening to have kids say to you you know , they see no purpose in being able to think logically .
Speaker 1Yes , that's true , that's true .
Speaker 2So one of the things that drives burnout is the feeling of not having the resources we need to get the curriculum to the kiddos . How do you think your book's going to help with that ?
Speaker 1Well , according to neuroscience again , I'm going to continue to quote those guys , because they're the power behind all this they said kids have to learn one way to do it , and right now there's only one book out there that can use primer . This is it . Math is not magic . So if everyone uses it , then we'll have everyone looking at the same way of doing something and when their kids , before their matured brains , hit , they need only one way , because that's all I can understand is one way . So that's where the book is going to help a lot , and I can tell you a little funny stories there too . Maybe we'll get to that later .
Speaker 1But uh , that primer will give the students what they're now lacking . They don't have one particular direction to concentrate on . They don't have that at all . What they have is people like you and me that are teachers that are older , that want to do things our way , because , well , human nature is to have an ego . You want things done your way , that's true , and kids don't have that yet because they haven't got that brain working like they want it to yet . So now when I try to reach teachers , almost every one of them says I agree with you that that would probably work , but my way is better , and so I can't get a lot of followers yet . I've got to keep working on that .
Speaker 2That's my main challenge right there . Yeah , I was just speaking with a . He was actually an administrator , anyway , and we were talking about how that becomes part of the problem Once you get into middle school and high school and I will own it . I thought that what I was teaching was should be the most important thing to my students , but every other teacher feels the same way . Once we get into content specific teaching- unfortunately yeah , and then it's hard to convince anyone that they need to do anything differently .
Speaker 1Yeah but we have to teach the world that science has said hey guys , human nature wants to do it their way and stuff , and that's great . But if you want it to work , you're more effective following what we found out , and when the kids get older they can switch over to their way . But until they get that , they can't switch to anything if you don't teach them anything at all . So instead of having the kids sit there with a blank stare , give them one way that'll work and they can learn one way , because when they look for help , if everyone's doing it , no matter who they talk to , they'll get the same answers and it'll sink in and they won't be confused by multiple ways of looking at something . So that's what we got to get through to everybody .
Speaker 2Well , to your point . I think that we're going to do a little , not a deep dive , just a little dip into some statistics here , because the statistics are pretty scary and this is not new . The scary statistics are not new . So just a quick research dip into national test scores in math . This first statistic comes from an article in NPR and I will link the article in today's show notes and it says while the scores show a drop from the pre-pandemic years , the results also show that there are other factors at work . The decline is even more substantial when compared with scores of a decade ago . The average scores declined seven points in reading , and these are on the national state assessments seven points in reading and 14 points in math . So double the decline in math as there was in reading .
Speaker 2And this one is from the US Department of Education . It says in 2022 , the average fourth grade math score decreased by five points and was lower than all previous assessment years going back to 2005 . The average score was one point higher compared to 2003 . The average eighth grade mathematics score decreased by eight points compared to 2019 and was lower than all previous assessment years going back to 2003 . In 2022 , fourth and eighth grade mathematics scores declined for most states , slash jurisdictions , as well as for most participating urban districts , compared to 2019 . These are some scary statistics , and I worked in three different school districts and I looked at math scores for fifth and sixth grade students in every one of those districts and they never got better , no matter what curriculum we use , no matter what we were doing . So how do you think math teachers in particular are feeling about their content and the students' ability to understand it ?
Speaker 1There's a sideline to that I'm going to give you right now my personal opinion is all it is , of course , because I'm the only one that counts here . Students today are different than students from 10 , 20 years ago because right now they don't have , they're not taught how to be responsible as much as they used to be taught , they're not taught to listen as well and they're taught to be independent . And unfortunately , kids and independence usually means converts to laziness , and then they stop listening , and that's how we're having trouble reaching them . So we have to not only give them the right method like my book will help my primer here but , uh , we have to make them listen to it too , and that's so . It's a double challenge . Actually , it's not just a matter of giving them a tool .
Speaker 1If they don't use it , it won't matter right so the part I wrote myself for notes on this . I'm going to take a look at them right now .
Teaching Math Logic With PRESS
Speaker 1Go for it .
Speaker 1Advancing from arithmetic's pluses and minuses to balancing algebra's equations is just a matter of moving the next level to finding the answers . That's from going to the lower grades , middle grades , the upper grades , and that's basically from someone being younger to being a little bit older , from someone being younger to being a little bit older . Unfortunately , science has just found out that going from younger to a little bit older doesn't change that part of your brain until you get really older , like in your mid-20s . So we have to stop expecting middle schoolers and high schoolers to act different than grade schoolers . They actually aren't going to act any different , except for maybe that top 10% . They're the ones that had their brain mature a little bit earlier than the rest , and of course those are our A students , because they did mature and they learned to listen and they learned to think , and they can think on their own too , because they don't have to just follow one pattern .
Speaker 1But the rest of them can't do that . So we have to teach them or what's the right word to use there . We have to I don't want to say force we have to help them . There you go , understand that their brain isn't mature yet , and by the time it is mature they're out of school . So they have to teach themselves a little differently than that , than the ? A students do , because the ? A students are lucky , they got the brain part coming to them early . The rest of them don't have it , so they have to focus more and they have to pay more attention to be more responsible . So there's some key words there that I don't want to get into because that's probably too heavy discussion about responsibility . But because they are still immature and as much as we want to believe they're going to mature because they're older , they just don't .
Speaker 1And that's why another big burnout question is that one too , because someone teachers keep thinking these kids are older , now they should be able to learn . Well , they got to . Teachers have to learn that kids can't yet . That's all there is to . So we have to continue to teach them , just like we did in grade school .
Speaker 1You continue to reinforce the one method that works , just like math you get pluses and minuses and there's only one way to teach that , so they learned it . So there's proof right there that it does work . But they think they can change now that they're a little older and they really should . They really have to get back to saying , okay , your brain's not there yet , so they shouldn't probably say that , because that doesn't help the kid any . But , uh , they gotta say , okay , I've got to teach this kid one way , so that if all the teachers teach the same way and they have their book that shows it and their parents join in , no matter who they go to for help , they're going to get reinforced with the same focus point . And then all of a sudden , they're going to start realizing they can't focus because they're not going to be confused anymore . They have one path to follow and anyone can do that , just like they did when they learned pluses and minuses .
Speaker 1So I got off on a tangent there , but that's okay that's basically the whole crux of the matter is , we got to get teachers to understand that you got to stop treating kids like they're adults , because they're not yet . Even at the middle age . And then the high school age . And I know , even when I was growing up I thought , of course , at that you think you're the smartest person in the world . And when I got older I realized that you know , when you're in high school , you're still pretty stupid when it comes to understanding how to think logic wise . So that's where it all comes together . We got to make the teachers understand that , okay , start teaching , start treating those students like they're still young kids , because they really are . Their brain is still young , even if they look taller . They look older , but their brain is still the same size and it's still missing that one piece that it still needs .
Speaker 1Yet yeah so , anyway , should I get back to my notes and give you a long speech here ? You want to try , try something else .
Speaker 2Well , I want you to tell us a little bit about the PRESS method , because I think that our listeners are going to want to know , kind of what this method is .
Speaker 1Yeah , and if they get into the book itself , which you can get on Amazon hint , hint . And the link will be in the show notes .
Speaker 2Good , good Amazon hint , hint , and the link will be in the show notes .
Speaker 1Good , good . Then it explains that up front just a couple of short paragraphs , even just a couple of pages , that this is the method , and then it shows you how it works and it has . The rest of the book is dedicated to showing all the examples across all the seven subjects taught in high school of mathematics , from algebra through calculus , and they will have exact examples to look at see how it works . And , like I explained , teachers and parents will both see that it makes sense because they're both over 25 years old . So now , if they continue to push this one idea , one way to look at it , the kids won't have to look at different ways and try to get confused . And what they're going to do is they're going to look at one way and keep looking at look at it . The kids won't have to look at different ways and try to get confused or get confused . What they're going to do is they're going to look at one way and keep looking at it until it sinks in , and then they can use that one way until they're old enough that , hey , wait a minute . My brain says I could look at it from another point of view and they can become as impressive as we are now right , but anyway , like I was saying , what I'm going to say here was that converting English word problems to math equations is not that easy . My primer will provide the tool press which will take away the mental block we now have in place . There's that in writing , as opposed to my own thoughts at the time . In short , as Aristotle said , the mind thinks in pictures . This has not changed from the cave walls to the pyramids to now , and people have to understand that Today everyone thinks of books and they think of everything in terms of words , and the younger mind just doesn't do that yet it still has to think in terms of pictures . So that's the acronym PRESS . It starts with the letter P , which stands for picture . Teach the students that seeing a picture of what they are trying to solve will help them and their minds focus . The R in PRESS stands for record labels , taken from the word problem . The E stands for equation . Here is where the teacher provides the equation that students need to learn . That fits the picture they drew , and the first S stands for substitute labels . The students learn where to put the picture labels into the equation . The last S stands for solve and that's the end of that part .
Speaker 1At this point the students have completed translating from English into Mathish . So now they've got this complex English paragraph they were looking at and they've converted it to Mathis , which is just a bunch of numbers and equal signs and stuff , and now they can look at it in terms of math , how math looks at it . Now you're back to more or less arithmetic days , but they learned to balance equations and all that and that takes care of it . All of a sudden you've conquered that problem where the blank stare can go away and you can say , okay , that complex English can now be put into a picture with numbers on it and labels for variables and whatnot , and that the mind can understand much easier than the words . So now , if we can teach kids to do this , they will have something easier to look at and they can move forward again and they're going to learn logic .
Speaker 1And that's my quest is to get them to all the learned logic right . When I explain the five steps , they're listening parents when I'm tutoring a kid while listening and they'll say why was it never this easy when I was in school ? And I laugh and I explain that is because they are now past their mid-20s . Just that easy they can pick it up , help their children with their homework and , after their children learn and practice one consistent , universal method , they will feel the same and will not develop that blank stare their parents learned in school , and that's my goal to get past that . If they don't put up the blank stare , then they won't stop listening and then they will learn logic . I just can't wait until the world is a more logical place than it is now .
Speaker 1I think we're all excited for that to happen , yeah we gotta get there because there's eight billion people , and if none of them use logic , we're gonna have a lot of confusion out there well you know , as you're explaining the press method , it just hits me that this is how we start out teaching math .
Speaker 2We have we call them manipulatives for children in kindergarten , first grade , sometimes up into second grade , where they have these tangible items and then those tangible items we then turn into pictures in the curriculum . So they have this skill at the very beginning of their math careers , right ? There you go ? Yes , but I know as a fifth and sixth grade teacher . We had very few pictures by the time we got into that math .
Speaker 1That's why , we have to teach the kids to take that English and turn it back into a picture .
Speaker 2Yep , yep , we did have the last curriculum that I used had a little . I forget what they called it , but it was some little reproducible thing that they could make at the beginning of each unit . So they had to cut it out and , you know , glue things together . And it was a variety of different things , but it was always the same thing it was to get them to memorize something .
Speaker 2It wasn't necessarily a picture of , or manipulative of , the actual math that they were going to say yes , well , the numbers get really big . You know , the numbers start getting really large and how are we supposed to create pictures and things like that with these very large numbers ? What would you say to that ?
Speaker 1Well , if they look at it and they look at themselves , they will find out that the inside pieces on the math , the numbers themselves and the formulas and all the variables look somewhat complex .
Speaker 1But when they look closely at it they'll find out that an entire equation is just less than one line long .
Speaker 1That's not very big . So the kids can actually focus on that and they can see what to do . To do that and like the person just explained to themselves too , that younger kids look for simple ways to look at things , and that's what we have to do is keep it in a picture , because the picture doesn't move , it's not complex , it doesn't grow , it doesn't shrink , it stays a picture , and then they can focus on it . And that's what we have to keep doing , not just stopping in sixth and seventh grade , but actually going on all the way through high school like that . Then there's that top 10% that you're going to pour a little bit because they want to do it their way , and you say , okay , we'll let you do it both ways , but if you can't see that second way , don't get frustrated . Just learn this one way and then later on you'll be able to see a second way and then you'll have your own way of doing it have your own way of doing it ,
Transforming Math Education for the Future
Speaker 1you know .
Speaker 2This also reminds me I used a , and I don't know who put it out , so I'm sorry . I'll put a link to this also in today's show notes . It's a resource for teachers , but it's called Yummy Math and you do have to pay for it . Have you heard of Yummy Math ?
Speaker 1I know I've heard of it , but I never really paid attention to it .
Speaker 2Well , it's scenarios , so they're like using your work , but I don't think they realize they're using your work . So , for example , they will give a problem , a word problem , and it will say you know , say you know , a grocery store had a display of 12 pack cases of soda and they made , you know whatever , a Christmas tree out of 12 packs you know . So the problem of the day is to figure out how many cans of soda it actually took to make this display . And then they show a picture of the display and they show it from four different angles . So you can create , you know , you can start trying to puzzle it out on your own but they give you the picture .
Speaker 1I had to laugh there because I remember seeing a joke more or less one time that explains that only in math can you talk about buying 12 avocados and 500 TV sets and coming up with an answer about something that never happens in real life .
Speaker 2Right . My daughter just said that I think hers was cantaloupes . Like , who would buy 300 cantaloupes mom ? Somebody who likes cantaloupe , I guess , or has a catering business . But I think that's the other thing too . We do have to . When kids ask those questions , they're kind of asking for the logic , aren't they ?
Speaker 1Exactly , that's . The whole heart of mathematics is teaching logic , and the whole part of teaching to get to math , to get to the logic , is using word problems . That's the main tool for teaching logic . So that's my focus all the time .
Speaker 2Well and you know this is what I used to say in the classroom when you're none of us are given a math problem with just the numbers , and you know it's like okay , here's what you have to do , right ? If you have an error in your checkbook that doesn't come with a formula ? No , I'm dating myself here , jerry .
Speaker 1Nobody's balancing their checkbooks anymore but you know what I mean .
Speaker 2How about this ? If you have an error on your credit card bill , that's probably more relevant in today's society . But you have to know how to get to the answer . They're not sending you the formula to figure it out .
Speaker 1And that's very true , that today's kids don't see stuff like we used to see it , because everything today is on your telephone and pretty much they're always looking at one little screen and it's always constantly changing , and then most of it's words , and they're just not ready for that yet .
Speaker 2Yeah , so what's your hope for the future of mathematics in the US school system ?
Speaker 1To make math understandable and the human race more intelligent , and that's where we have to focus on something as simple as this . We have to take math and say that it's not complex . You just take those complex words that we can't see and turn them into a picture that we can see , and there you go Math isn't complex . Stop worrying about it being hard , like your parents did , and when you grow up , you'll laugh at your parents for not seeing what you learned .
Speaker 2I think there's some truth to that . Learned . I think there's some truth to that . So I know I actually I'm a little bit of a mind reader and I already know that you're going to answer this question by saying buy your book . So , other than buying your book , what is your advice to parents and math teachers right now ? How can they begin to turn this train around ?
Speaker 1Well , parents , you got to talk to those math teachers and convince them to buy the book too . And again , the main point is kids are only available right now to learn one way of doing something . So focus on that one way . And if you get the book for your kids outside the classroom until they make it part of their curriculum , you'll understand it real quick as a parent because you got that ability now . The book for your kids outside the classroom until they make it part of their curriculum you'll understand it real quick as a parent because you've got that ability now . So you'll be able to use that book just as well as a teacher could . And you can help your kids learn because you're going to teach them one method and they're going to see it in black and white in their own book and they're going to see the pictures in it . They're going to see all the examples and all the great examples covering all the subjects in math . And so , parents , don't give up . Help , help those kids out till the school comes around and joins you , and you guys be the first ones to do it . As a matter of fact , the first 3000 copies of my book that I sold were to homeschoolers , so that's exactly where it is . The parents are helping out and they like it . They love it a lot because now they have a tool they can use and instead of being confused because , when they look back , what they learned from math was to stare blankly and you can't teach that to a kid , or you can't actually , but don't and so I think maybe we have to keep hitting the parents first , then then of and so I think maybe we have to keep hitting the parents first , then , of course , what's from a call caught in the way , our disease of the century here , which I can't think of the name of it right now .
Speaker 1What was it happening about 10 years , five , 10 years ago , we all had the case of COVID . Is that it ? Yeah , and I don't worry about that kind of stuff . I guess I have a healthy body . I never caught it . But if we can get past those COVID years where school is really confused now , I mean , half the kids want to stay home , half of them want to go to school and no one wants to learn , they want it to just be poured in their heads . And now they got to learn that it doesn't just get poured in . You got to think , got to use your brain .
Speaker 2Yeah , I agree , I agree . So I think we've covered a lot here today . I would say I think one of the things that people tend to forget is that for people like you , who are trying to look at education from a different perspective and put content out there for people to try , we also need to kind of make a living as well . So just by purchasing your book , because you've explained there are different ways that we can go about things , better ways , so I just want to put a plug out there to anyone that's listening , you know that at least go check out Jerry's book .
Speaker 2If it's not for you , if you already feel like you're great at math or you're a great math teacher , maybe you can just pass this resource on to somebody who needs a little more help . But certainly , over and over in this podcast , I hear two things from educators and burnout experts , and it is we need to scale back , we need to simplify , yeah . So this is a way that we can do that , and everybody believes there needs to be some change . So a change that we can make and a simple change to to simplify things would be at least giving this a shot . So anybody who's listening be at least giving this a shot .
Speaker 1So anybody who's listening , you know , maybe check it out and see if you can make it work for you or your building you made the point perfectly there about saying that we have to simplify it , because people keep thinking that kids get a little older , they can think like an adult and they just can't . Yes , we got to remember to tell people to remember that we got to change the school . To remember that too . So we got to remember to tell people to remember that we got to change the school . Remember that too , so that they can continue to do what successfully they did in the earlier grades .
Speaker 1Keep it going all the way through high school yeah and make it accessible like I like to say let's catch up to star trek someday . We showed that , uh , people start thinking intelligently and logically . We can be out in space , we can control the whole universe . We're not going to get there if we don't start now , no , and something has to change right .
Speaker 2I mean , we can't plop kids in front of computers and expect them to learn , because that's not how the brain works either . We need interaction , we need questioning , we need inquiry and we need critical thinking skills and you made a perfect point there too , about the computer .
Speaker 1You can't just set a kid in front of it and say , OK , let the computer pour this into you , because the computer can't do that Right For math , English , education , anything . To work intelligently , you've got to have a two-way conversation , not a one-way conversation .
Speaker 2That's right . That's right , Jerry . I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast . Is there anything else you'd like to say before we go ?
Speaker 1Get involved . Please contact me , help me get the schools going . Let's get the world moving and let's make everyone more logical . Or , as they can say in my motto press on .
Speaker 2Sounds good to me . You can find all oferry's information in today's show notes thank you very much today's episode was produced and edited by me .
Speaker 2the theme music is by otis mcdonald featuring joni inez . If you know someone who might enjoy these conversations , please share the podcast episodes as much and as often as you can . It's as simple as copying the link you use to access today's episode and sending it in a message or sharing it on social media . I'm a small , independent operation and your shares broaden our audience . Perhaps you or someone you know will be inspired to talk about teacher burnout . If you would like to get your voice on my podcast , contact me via the link on my webpage taughtbuzzsproutcom . Coach speaker and author Rashid Ogunlaro said it may take many voices for people to hear the same message . Join me in being one of the many voices rising up to get the message out around educator burnout .
Speaker 2This is Melissa LaFleur . Thank you for listening to TAUT the podcast . I wish I knew I have an important reminder slash disclaimer to share . The views , thoughts and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency , organization , employer or company . Content provided on this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be taken as professional advice . We encourage you to do your own research and consult with qualified professionals before making any decisions based on the information discussed in this or any other episode . Additionally , any opinions or statements made during the podcast are not intended to malign any religion , ethnic group , club , organization , company or individual Listener . Discretion is advised . Thank you for tuning in .