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For new viewers and listeners.

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This repeat episode of The Matt Haycox Show originally aired on the 2nd of March 2019

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with guest Levi Roots.

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Levi Roots is one of the best success stories to ever come out of Dragon's Den, mixing music and food into a dream recipe.

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The Levi Roots range has been expanded into cookbooks, cooking sauces, ready meals, desserts, soft drinks and more.

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That's all led him to an estimated net worth of approximately £30 million today.

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This interview dives into the behind the scenes of Levi Roots success.

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Hi, guys. It's Matt Haycox here. And today, my next guest needs absolutely no introduction. He is the one and only Levi Roots. Probably the biggest success story out of Dragons Den and the founder of reggae reggae sauce. So, Levi, thanks a lot for being here buddy. Yeah, respect man. Cool. Thanks for having me Listen, I've got plenty of questions that I want to ask you.

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And I was doing some research as well last night just to just familiarize myself with your story before before I was meeting you today. But just before we kind of get onto the the kind of reggae reggae journey from Dragon's Den onwards, Can you just give give us a little bit about your life and background prior to that.

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Oh, entrepreneurial side of things because music goes with. Sure. Well, mine is the time when I saw of the tide of of of entrepreneurialism. It was the time of my floods back then. And I suppose then you've got to take that that current when it says that the most dangerous parts in my life back then my life was about shallows and miseries in those days.

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But when you come, when your flood comes, you've got to take that because it is your only chance to to get yourself to your adventures. And for me it was about taking those steps and that was with dragons. Then I took my my floods and I've been adding adventures ever since then. So has been fantastic. How long have you been making the sauce prior to Dragons Den?

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Well, I started at the carnival in the nineties and I suppose the journey then was was the making of, I suppose, the branding of Levi Roots, because this sauce came later. But I was at the carnival sort of doing the music and food thing, whereas I had sort of a turn up every year and, and we sort of imagined the music and the food together and people kind of like that.

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But it was many years after doing that that I actually realized that the sauce was going to be the main thing and not the playing of the guitar and, and the singing of songs about food and all that kind of stuff. So whose idea was it for you to go into the Dragon's Den? Was it was that something that was something used to watch, you know, about yourself or something?

00:02:50:07 - 00:03:25:23
Recommended it for, you know, actually what it was the opposite of that. I'd never seen the show and I'd never heard of it. I was in a sort of a TV watcher in those days. My television was always stuck on the sports channel, you know, in in sort of 2005, 2000, six. And it was while I was sort of at a point in my life where I decided to take the sauce outside of my local Brixton and not promote it with Caribbean people, I decided to just go wherever there was an event about spices and about food, but there wouldn't be no Caribbean people there.

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And it was while I was at one of these events, one of the producers of Dragon's Den was just happened to be. I'm in the audience and I was there selling the sauce and being silly. Only me as a as I was back then. And and she she came over with a business card and and offered me to come on the show.

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And and I remember specifically when she did offered me the card, I refused it because I'd never heard of the show and I didn't really understand what she was trying to tell me, that it was about finance. And so so at that point, you actually weren't weren't even looking for investments or you weren't particularly trying to grow the business.

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You, you then kind of fit a fit of business model of growth around the fact that you could go on the show to my mother. No, I suppose, no. I mean, for me, when I used to go to those events, it was about networking and always trying to get to the next level of selling the next button, the sauce, and getting some more information about about the chili world and about people that loved spicy food.

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So it was me gathering information to perhaps do the the business in another way. But as I said, that about the tide, when it when it comes, you never know when it comes and sometimes it hits you in your face. You know, I look, you know, I call it the tide, but it's about your luck comes in sometimes slaps you in your face and you're still not waking up to it.

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And she was giving me a business card and telling me that here is my tide, this is my moment, This is your moment of luck has come because I was in that space at the time. I was saying, excuse me, I'm not really into that. But I still took the business card, which she gave me. And it was it was later on that my kids recognized the business card from Dragon's Den, and it was then that sort of told me what the show was about and that sort of stuff.

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Fantastic. So it's something I'm very interested in. I watched a bit of the drug and then I want some. I'm an avid average viewer, but I like to I'm always very curious as to what the process is prior to peak, prior to people going on the show. Obviously, as a viewer, we only get to see a very diluted, you know, ten minute segment.

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And I guess it almost looks too easy or too hard. A business goes in there, speaks for 5 minutes as a quick negotiation, gets an offer and off they go or get kicked out and off they go with the tail between the legs. What was it? What's the actual process from when you kind of asked to go on the show, commit to it, and how much filming goes to make that 10 minutes?

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Well, I suppose the first thing is to say that everyone's journey is different, you know, And I suppose my journey the way it happened, I think it was a bit outlandish, difficult, but the else was because I wanted to sing the song on the show for a start, and nobody had ever sung before. You know, I had explained, you know, to the producers that the only way that I would would have gone on the show with the sauce is if I could take my guitar.

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And, you know, well, we're not sorry to interrupt, but while we're on that point, because I actually made a note here to say, you know, why did you sing when you went on? What was that part of your pitch or because, you know, I one of the things I talk about a lot is getting attention for your business and being different to everybody else.

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Were you doing that, I guess, for attention seeking purposes to really get yourself noticed, or was there a more personal reason why? Why the music fit with the fit with the business? Part of the reasons why there was networking occasions I used to love them was owning my own skill, getting to the point where I found the best of me how to represent myself.

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It was. It was part of my journey in life. And by the time I got to that point, I kind of felt that the music and and put in the music and the food together was the way forward. And when she said Dragon's Den and my kids were telling me about the show, I knew then this was a moment for me to express the Levi Roots that I knew was inside of me, which wasn't just about the butler sauce and standing there and saying, Hey, I've got this great sauce.

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Can you try some? It was about me writing songs about you than actually performing, because performing was where my career was before. I was a singer songwriter for many years before before Dragons Den. So it was putting those two things together and and of course, you know, if you say to me you want to go on TV, first thing, I'm thinking if I want to go and perform and and sing.

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And so it was a bit different than everyone else. And of course, I suppose the BBC was a bit worried that the song had profanities and wasn't right. So I actually had a screen test before, which I don't think that normally do that, just for them to hear the song and and to see that I was just, you know, basically just doing what I was saying.

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The song is about food. It tells the story about my grandma and about the sauce and and what's in it. So basically I didn't have to talk or my business plan was actually within within the song. So I had to go do a screen test singing the song and and the rest is history. Fantastic. So you go back to the story, I interrupted you and then so.

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So you told the BBC that you wanted that you wanted to to say, yeah, they allowed you to perform the song. What, what, what, what happened on the journey from there. Yeah, well, it's going in and as I say, to perform the song, they were absolutely blown away that, you know, the song was going to had something a bit different to what they'd, you know, previous shows.

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And I'd been about before I arrived that, you know, the day of the filming and my guitar string broke a couple of times. I thought this was the moment where back again, about the time in your life I thought, this is the time when I'm going to be bloody drowning in my in my own time. I said to them that I didn't want to perform because my guitar strings were broken and I didn't see all I felt this was some kind of home and was saying to me, you know, don't do it because you're going to be this black guy, you know, doing the word mess on Dragon's Den and you come up with a

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very guitar and a sauce called Reggie. Reggie Sauce you our what is very pronounced reggae. Oh, none of the panel could anyway in those time and I thought it was a something was telling me to go home you know and and not to bother with the show. The string broke twice. Get out of Levi. And they offered to go and buy a set of strings.

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And they sent this wonderful lady called Michelle. I still friends right now. She she drove from where Jack is and was being filmed to get a pair of guitar strings, you know, and bring it to the studio. And I restarting the guitar and go to go again. And the strings still broke again. You know, I'm thinking to myself, Hey, some plan is going on.

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I've got to get out of the studio. They convinced me to go with the guitar. And to this day, if you look, if you close up on the guitar, when you watch Dragon's Den, you will see it only has five strings on there. I really do. Yeah, because I went on for 5 minutes, you know, be convinced by them that this is going to be the moment nobody had got investment that day.

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It was a day of where the Dragons were perhaps really angry and didn't invested anyone. I was the last one up, and by the time I had gone up, I didn't see any other people come back into the room, which started off with about 12 or so people that myself in there with, with, with presentations to make. And so so I knew as the final one something was going to happen.

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And I had the guitar. Normally when I'm I'm at the side of the stage and somebody says, Levi Roots, and I've got my guitar, it's time to perform. I've done that all my life before. And here was Jack. And then and I was doing the same thing. I had my guitar. I was at the side of a stair leading onto a stage and someone says, Leave your time.

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So I put my mind that I wasn't performing to five white millionaires that could change my life. I put my mind in the fact that I was performing to 5000 people as I normally do in my music days. So it was a performance for me. But I'm sure you remember the bits after the album. The performance was Blue, The Dragon's Away, and it was absolutely fantastic and I was buzzing and I, you know, I felt great and everything I watched and it was it's afterwards now that when the reality now that you know, this wasn't a stage where you're performing on you know this is actually about investment and trying to get these guys to

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part with their money and that's when the old thing switched from being guilty. And wonderful for me as a performer into bloody hell what I do and type. Well, that was obviously one of the big bets they featured on in the show was there was the order letter that you had that you said You've got an order and you I think you were getting confused over the actual look called the quantity of the sauce, etc..

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What's one of the things I wanted to understand was what kind of prep prep work you'd done before you before you got into the show. Did did you did you have like a financial adviser or business plan or anything that kind of get you ready for it? Or was it very much still a kind of a Brixton market with a guitar?

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We're going to. Absolutely. It was it was as raw as you can get it. You know, I, I felt that being Levi Roots was good enough. You know, I didn't feel like I wanted to pretend any other way. And I said to myself before I went that morning that I wasn't going to do any numbers. I'm not going to do the business plan type thing.

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I'm going to perform because this is not about reggae, reggae songs. And I'm hoping that one of the Dragons or two will see that this guys is not saying, just invest in the sauce, invest in him. And I thought the song was good enough. All I needed to do was to perform that it was good enough to say that we can sell the product, because I knew that if you had a good salesman, it's better than having a terrible salesman and a good product, you know?

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And I felt that I was good enough to sell the sauce, which was, by the way, was brilliant anyway. But the Dragons hasn't tried that as yet. So all I was bartering on is just the fact that about the performance. So when, when Richard I think was Richard Farley that time that kind of said to me, you know, Levi, you know, the song is great and sauce is great, but you're actually rubbish at the numbers and stuff.

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And and I took this bit of paper, which I promised myself that I'm not I'm not going to do. So it was a mistake it going against my my natural flow of saying that it's about me. It's not about numbers. I'm here for you guys to help me because I'm the starter, I guess. I guess I guess in a way, you know that negative added a further positive to to achieve what you want and you wanted to you didn't want to talk about the numbers because you wanted to show Hi I'm Levi but I guess by showing the numbers and offering them effectively it went it went one step further to show your rawness and

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your honesty. Yeah, because it's a natural reaction, isn't it? I mean, I mean, if if you didn't do that, then, you know, you're a very clever bastard. Somebody was a natural. But when you when you're against the wall and you've and you think you know, you've got to do something, you know, you tend to grab of the straws even, you know, and, and that's what I was doing when I did that.

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I went against my natural plan of saying that this is about Levi Roots, because it actually turned in my way when Richard said to me, Levi, would you admit that you would need some help in in that department? I think that was the bit that swung it for me because that's this is about honesty. You know, if I if I'd fight the tide, you know, and started saying, actually no, and I'm fine with that, then it looks like a lot of people do when they're faced with that moment.

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I actually put my hands up and said to them, Yeah, guys, you know, I'm going to need your help, because after all, that's what you're there as a startup. You need these guys to turn you into what they are. All you've come, you've come with is your is your natural entrepreneurship, which I think is in everyone. I think we're all born entrepreneur.

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But to learn to be able to use those skills, that's when someone like a mentor comes into it. So that's when I put my hands up and said to Richard, Yeah, you know, if you invest in me, yeah, you know, I can get everything sorted. But to make this sauce and to sell it as Levi Roots, there is no better person than myself.

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And that brings it onto the good bit. Which. Which is it? Which is the investment path. And I guess for anyone watching this who either doesn't know or doesn't remember, Levi I was looking for £50,000. And at this point in the show, he got an offer for 25,000 from Peter Jones and 25,000 from Richard Farley to go to get to go halves on the business.

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But you were willing to give away 20% of the business, and they both offered you the half of the money, but for 20% each. Tell me how how hard of a question for you was it to kind of go from 20% to 40%? Did you I mean, in the show we we see you edit it down, I guess, but it was it was a much of a thought process there.

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Or were you just, you know, all over again as a spiritual person? I went straight back to my grandma because, you know, as the song says and everything around the songs, it was the inspiration of her cooking that brought me to where reggae, reggae sauce is. So that moment in Dragon's Den when there was Ask you, Do you want to go round to the back end and have a chat with yourself, or are you allowed to ask you to leave the room?

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Or who don't? You just have a little space a step away from the cameras, even though the cameras are there, still still having a look at you, but it's out of the spotlight and you have that moment to have a chat with your partner. If this two or three of you there or in my case, you know, I wouldn't have a prayer with my grandma to find out whether I was I was going to do the right thing because I knew that whatever the offer was, I'm going to accept it because it's better than going back to Brixton without any offers and you coming back as as, as, as defeated by by the Dragons.

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I thought, this is my moment. And as I said before, you have to take the current when it serves or lose your vengeance. Did you ever think about trying to negotiate it down at all? Or was it you're happy just to take the 40%? To be honest, I'd never seen Dragon's Den, and even before, when my kids were trying to say to me, Dad, at least you got to watch this YouTube.

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Have a look. Have a look at it. Dad, I was trying to say, you know, guys, I don't want to see. I never did any investigation about what the show was from the moment I was approached by that producer to the moment I was actually on Dragon's Den, I never saw any clips. I didn't do any research on, you know, how horrible I was.

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I heard that Duncan can be and I told Peter, is that now, you know, Deborah doesn't invest in all the sort of superlatives that you hear about these individual dragons. I definitely tried to stay away from that because I didn't want to be beaten before before I got there. So knowing how to barter on the show, you know, knowing how to head for Peter, if you've got a food product because that's where you are, head for Deborah.

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If you've got something to do with the early days and you know, and whatever the Dragons may do, I didn't know that. So when I got that offer, you know, for me that was it. You know, you accept it, then you do what you can with that, because I know that it's better to accept something in, you know, your flying than to walk away with nothing.

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And you still, you know, you're still not in the spirit wings yet. And what's the process after. So you actually you made the offer, you accepted it and then you leave with then how does it work from from there to actually physically getting the investment is the lengthy due diligence that happens. You know, a lawyers and advisers involved.

00:19:01:23 - 00:19:34:18
How long does it take? Normally? It takes a long time. I mean, normal investment in Dragons Den will take anything from a few months to to a few years to actually get the deal done. I guess it's we're badly delayed by that. Absolutely. It was a phenomenon, you know, even if I do say so myself, because I was in it and, you know, it was very daunting to be in it and seen what was happening, not just with me, but with my family and everything that was happening there.

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So for me, it was like looking in and and within weeks the source was out selling instrument to catch up in Sainsbury's. It was phenomenal. It's never been done and it will never be done again. Since Business one record, it is one of the biggest record in sales during the shortest period of time. So, so, so, so on day one, on day one, the investments happened, you know, partners with the Dragons.

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What did they do to kind of, I guess, you know, look into business shape or all, you know, go out, go out there and do some work for you? Nothing really. No, no. It's this again, as I said, the Dragons don't invest, especially Peter, you know, invest in the person because he knows or he feels that this person will have to run the business.

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You know, he's not there to mollycoddle you through the business. I think who does the deals with with Sainsbury's and with I do you absolutely No I do we are all a licensing brand and it's more harder to go that way because I've been dealing with the biggest companies in some of the biggest companies in this country ever since they day two of Dragons Den, our big house sauce maker is Abbey World Foods is one of the biggest companies in this country.

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We've worked with bad side, We've worked with Vimto, really big brands. And, you know, and I'm right in the thick of it from from day one. And again, the investment from Peter and and from Richard was in the fact that they felt that I could do this and I wanted it. And tell me I don't hear a lot of talk about it all.

00:21:07:18 - 00:21:32:00
But when I was doing my research this morning, I didn't realize it. Obviously, both Richard and Peter invested, but Peter apparently bought Richard out for what was described as for little more than he invested. So what will you love to tell us about the backgrounds of? Well, firstly, I can say that Peter didn't buy by might. I think it wouldn't be possible to do that because we are a a business together.

00:21:32:06 - 00:21:56:22
It was it's a joint decision, anything that we do. So it's a joint decision by that. But yes, it was Richard. Richard felt that it was time to move on. How long? How long after? It's about 18 months. Yeah, 18 months or less. Had, you know, already hit some degree of success. But yeah, absolutely. It's as I said, the sauce was, you know, by then it was in every store.

00:21:56:24 - 00:22:20:24
You know, we did the first six months with Sainsbury's and then, you know, Tesco's and everybody else came on board, which was, which was fantastic. But he saw the opportunity again as the two investors as one invest in the sauce, you know, which is Richard, Richard is a serial investor, He will see the opportunity and he will go in and he will he will do his best and he will want to to leave that.

00:22:20:24 - 00:22:50:12
So he runs his business, which is fantastic for me, because without him, I wouldn't have had to deal because it's, you know, you've got to get the full amount before you go. So I really thank him for that. But again, Peter, Peter didn't invest in peace. Peter invested in Levi Roots. So for Richard, he was just when he I suppose when he felt that the saw, said Pete, because you've got to remember that, you know, nobody had actually done what you know, we had done as a team on the show.

00:22:50:12 - 00:23:16:03
So for him, he probably thought that was the moment for him to to, you know, to perhaps to cut and run, which was still brilliant, you know, because I you know, I paid him ten times the amount back for the for, you know, for it for his 20% shares. Oh okay. Well I guess then that makes sense. The article I was reading was describing that he basically sold the shares for little more little more than he put it in the first place.

00:23:16:03 - 00:23:52:13
You know? No, absolutely not. Don't believe everything you read on Google, guys. And tell me. I mean, obviously this started this as I started off as a passion. It obviously still is a passion project and something you were emotionally invested in. But I guess now you've got you're dealing with big corporates, some big brands and all that. Do you do you ever do you ever find a conflict there, you know, from the kind of personal, emotional side of things and the and the big business corporate mentality when when the I guess the trading your name?

00:23:52:15 - 00:24:12:14
No, I think it's been it's been fun for some of the companies that we've worked with because I personally think that we we bring we bring something special to the market that's been out there. Caribbean food had been a sleeping giant, you know, all along the way. It hasn't popped his head out. Like what? I think it's deserved to over the years.

00:24:12:19 - 00:24:33:18
So when we came around as a as a brand and you know we were doing Caribbean flavors, I think the supermarkets and these companies, you know, were pleas for a bit of sunshine, you know, that, you know, I was bouncing around saying, put some music in the food and and, you know, the colors of the sauce and and of the brand, you know, was very bright, vibrant.

00:24:33:18 - 00:24:52:11
When you walk into Tesco's and when you walk into Sainsbury's in the supermarket, I think it brought a little bit of music to the to the whole thing of a food and drink. So for us we were welcome, you know, by, by many of, of the brands because you know, we were just as successful because of these brands, because I don't own any factories.

00:24:52:16 - 00:25:19:06
You know we've had over 50 different products on the brand in 12 years. And yes, we relied heavily on Aldi's. You know, these massive brands to to invest in us. So so when you actually make new products, do you have your own R&D kitchen that you create this stuff in and then then you then you bring your Abbey foods, whatever the called into, create the things at that point or they involved from like kind of stage one of the creation process.

00:25:19:07 - 00:25:45:22
Yeah. From, from stage one they will have their process and I go in and do that. But now we have my restaurant in, in Stratford and, and then now we sort of do any developments and that's, you know, that's not a license deal. That's your own. Yeah. That's a decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we do our tastings and our development and then when we go when we need to, but we still work very closely with good companies through like, oh, I look forward to coming in, checking it out.

00:25:45:22 - 00:26:20:08
Yeah. And what about in any future plans and if anything exciting, you can tell us about this on the horizon? Yeah, I'm writing my autobiography at the moment, which is, you know, fantastic. I'll finish that. You about to slip me in here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's. It has been fun getting that together and talking to my mum and getting the story of my grandma together and, you know, doing a bit of investigating about my family and, and that sort of stuff and learning about stuff that I didn't know about the history of, of, of my grandma and you know, other things like the restaurant, you know, for me that's exciting.

00:26:20:12 - 00:26:40:07
It's a step away from, you know, the food and drink business that you know, that we do as a brand as products. And we've gone into one of the most difficult territory in business, which is restaurants and getting used to that and learning about that. It's been a a heavy learning ground going into that side of business, but it's been exciting also.

00:26:40:07 - 00:27:07:12
And, you know, my vision is to have more than just the one restaurant we have at the moment. So obviously, Levi, you've already had one experience of dealing with the Dragons. But in my in my day job, as you probably know, I invest and lend to cities across the UK and the one question I always like to ask my guests on this show is if I was to invest in you in a in a sector different to what you were already in, what would it be?

00:27:07:14 - 00:27:24:11
Well, food and drink is where we've always been and we've been very successful at that. But I suppose that if you were to give me the money and and say, do it, I think I would invest in medicinal cannabis. This has taken on leaps and bounds over the past few years, I think as a Rastaman as well too.

00:27:24:11 - 00:27:55:23
That's it's very happy with myself. We've been promoting the use of of cannabis for many, many years. I think Peter Tosh, his album Legalize It, which was released in 1974, I think I think he's been always been a champion for the legalization of cannabis. And I think lately the way I've seen the medicinal side and how it helps people to do with multiple sclerosis and all the other types of illnesses, I think in a few years time, especially in this country, because it's not legal here as yet, but it is in Canada and in many states in the US.

00:27:56:00 - 00:28:18:14
I think it's it's it's a great investment. Fantastic. Well, that's absolutely not the answer I was expecting, but it is fantastic. So thank you very much. So obviously, anyone that knows you and follows your journey has seen all the all the kind of good and positive and success of Levi Roots and the brand. But I guess, you know, there's no successful entrepreneur out there who hasn't had many dark days along the way.

00:28:18:20 - 00:28:40:17
Have you got any particular scary moments or or any big mistakes that you've made along the way that you've been able to use as a learning experience? And you can tell our guests about it, so tell our viewers about so that they don't make the same mistakes? Well, I started off by saying my life was deemed in shallows and in miseries before I managed to sort of get to my adventures.

00:28:40:19 - 00:29:09:07
And for that I meant that it was making a lot of mistakes. You know, for me, mistakes was my life before. But I do think you have to learn from those mistakes. When people see these interviews and they sort of go into the Levi Roots life, if they want to be for the Dragons, then they will know where my inspiration comes from, at least by making a lot of mistakes along the way, because I actually get to realize that there's no such things as mistakes.

00:29:09:11 - 00:29:31:14
Mistakes is about feedback. It's about what you take from from certainly a mistake if you make absolute loss. Absolutely. So, you know, and I've made them twice, many a times because you never got that wake up. You never you didn't find the true you. So I've found the true me. And it was that moment when I found the really bad, the one that I would invest in.

00:29:31:16 - 00:29:51:16
You know, when I stop making all that kind of mistakes before. But now I learn from them. So if the question was asks, would I change anything from there? I still would say no, because my journey is my journey. It may not be for anyone else, but it's been. Mine's fantastic. Well, listen, Levi, it's been an absolute pleasure having you here.

00:29:51:16 - 00:30:11:24
It's been really interesting to hit to hear all the kind of behind the scenes, behind the scenes gossip of Dragon's Den and and learn about your journey. So I hope you guys are home have liked listening as much as I’ve liked asking. And thanks a lot for coming. Cheers. Thank you buddy. Respects sir. Thank you.