Accidental Lawyer To Thriller Author: Michael Stockham On Returning To Purpose Later In Life

In this episode, I sit down with Michael Stockham, a lawyer, novelist, former creative writing student, fly fishing guide, poet, and storyteller whose life proves that it is never too late to start again. Mr. Stockham shares how his path did not begin with a clear legal career plan, but instead moved through studio art, poetry, creative writing, odd jobs, fly fishing, restaurant work, telemarketing, and eventually law school. His journey is a strong reminder that calling, purpose, and professional identity are often discovered through persistence rather than handed to us neatly at the beginning.

We talk about Mr. Stockham’s early creative roots, including his degrees in poetry and short fiction, his love of language, and how creative writing eventually connected to the courtroom. He explains how law became a practical and providential next step, allowing him to use storytelling, persuasion, and writing in a more stable profession. I also ask him about the realities of being a lawyer, including the stress, sacrifice, long hours, and emotional weight that comes with helping people and companies navigate crisis.

This conversation also explores Mr. Stockham’s book Confessions Of An Accidental Lawyer, which blends real-life inspiration with fictional storytelling. We discuss his experience representing a prisoner in solitary confinement who claimed he was denied proper medication, along with the personal family story woven into the book involving IVF, marriage, and the pursuit of a child. Mr. Stockham explains how these two storylines came together to create a layered novel about responsibility, hardship, justice, and family.

Later in the episode, we discuss his Jake Fox legal thriller series, including Jake Fox: Ties That Blind and the upcoming books planned in the series. Mr. Stockham shares how Jake Fox is built around redemption, brokenness, small-town law, high-stakes trials, and characters who continue growing across multiple books. We also talk about why fiction matters, how stories can carry truth, and why writing is not just entertainment but also a way to process life, preserve meaning, and teach through imagination.

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Transcript

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Cup of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and today we're gonna talk about something that I love to talk about, which is it's never too late in life to start. Sometimes we bounce around in life. I myself have worked a lot of jobs despite my youthful and beautiful appearance. I've had you know, different journeys of going from one place to the other until finding my calling. It's not always we wake up or our parents just hand it to us, right? Sometimes we gotta figure out the hard way. Sometimes it costs us more money than we'd like and more hardship, but eventually we get where we're supposed to be, and I think it's inspirational. I've had authors as old as in their 70s, 80s, and I know people in their 90s publishing their first book, so it's never too late to write and publish your book. You know, I think that's so beautiful that I s- have gotten to interview so many people who are making that effort later in life, and we have one such person here today to also talk about sometimes what we end up falling into isn't what we thought, and I, I definitely can relate to that. Speaking on stage and performing comedy was not what I, you know, came out of the womb thinking about. So we're gonna get into it today with Mr. Stockham, Michael Stockham. So great to have you here, and we got a lot to cover, so let's go ahead and just start with a basic overview of who you are. Sure. Good. Well, thank you for having me, and I appreciate you letting me visit with your audience today. It's a blessing. You wanna start with just a general overview of where I am and how I got here? Yes, sir. Absolutely. So yesterday was my 56th birthday, so, I am old and gray to a certain extent, as my children like to tell me, but I'm not as old as others, I guess. I started... I'm currently a lawyer at a large law firm. We have about 2,100 lawyers throughout the United States. It's a big enterprise what they call big law or, or, or white shoe law some people derogatorily say. But I did not start out to be a lawyer. In fact, I ended up, when I first left high school, I went off to be a studio artist and studied that for a while. Then I ultimately got a bachelor's degree in writing poetry in the creative writing department at the University of New Mexico. And then I went fishing for nine months and was a fly fishing guide in northern New Mexico, living out of a fifth-wheel trailer- Hmm ... take- taking people fishing every day. After about nine months of doing that, I went back to school, and sometimes I joke I doubled down on dumb. I got a second degree in writing creative writing and one in short stories, and then ended up wandering back to New Mexico, where I fell into a number of odd jobs, anything from a mason's apprentice, to a dishwasher at a restaurant, to a server, technical writer. I was a telemarketer for a long time for NCI WorldCom when that was still a business, selling long distance. And then I ultimately decided to go back to school one last time and see if I could put together a profession, and I did. I went to law school. I graduated out of Cornell in 2002, and I've been basically at the same firm practicing law as a litigator and doing sort of corporate crisis work for almost two and a half decades now, and that's kind of where I've, I am professionally. And part of that journey also in- ha- has included taking a, a path a little bit different and starting to write novels later in my life and getting back to those original creative writing roots. No, I can't say with 100% confidence, 'cause I've had, you know, over 300 guests, but I think you're the first fly fisherman I've ever had on the show. You know, that's not something you hear commonly or often. So we'll, we'll get to that, 'cause I'm sure there's stories with that. But I gotta start with, I've published two collections of poetry. I love poetry. I used to write a lot of it, not as much anymore. And I ask this with a sincere heart. What was going through your mind when you said, "I'm gonna get a degree in poetry"? And I don't mean that derogatorily, but what were you thinking when you were like, "Hey, I wanna pursue a degree in poetry"? What is the degree going to enable you to do in terms of writing poetry that just going out and being a freelancer or just creating a brand and platform by yourself would do? Correct. So at that time, the vision would've been probably twofold to become a, a regularly published poet, put out collections, et cetera, and then try to work your way into academia and teach at a colle- at the college level in a creative writing department. Okay. So it would've been something looking to be a, a professor or a lecturer at a, at a university level, would've been the dream at that point. And was teaching a passion, or was it just, "Hey, this is the best way to get paid for poetry"? Little bit of both. If you're gonna undertake something unique like that, like being a studio artist or being a fiction, a short fiction writer or a poetry, a poet, you're gonna need to find some way to pay the bills. And the pathway forward professionally when you went down that tube, when you went down that path seemed to be teaching, and teaching was a passion. Okay. I enjoyed working with students when I got the chance. I, I have been an instructor when I worked my way through graduate school and other stuff. I did do tu- I did teach English composition and some other courses, and found that enjoyable. I enjoyed very much getting people to, to help them learn. And was it just seeing their stories come to life or their passion for it as well, or, you know, getting to be kind of a part of their creative journey? The most inspirational part of it is seeing somebody find a style that fits them. Mm. So when someone jumps from being a copycat or just following in the s- footsteps of, of a poet that they admire and takes on their own voice, either in poetry, short fiction, or novel writing, that's really rewarding. That's really interesting to see. And it's a fun journey to go on with someone. So it would've been a rewarding career as well. It would not have been as lucrative, for sure but it would've been rewarding. Hmm. Yeah, I don't know if I could do it because I'll be honest, my, here's my confession you know, I just don't really like poetry that doesn't rhyme. I hate it, to be honest. And I, I, for me, I always say, "If it doesn't rhyme, it's not worth the time." And of course, that's not true. There's a lot of great poetry that doesn't rhyme, and it's not to mock or knock anyone's you know, personal style, but I just can't do it. I can't read it. I can't write it. I just, I love to have the rhyme. There's a certain flow that it creates to it for me compared to the structure of non-rhyming poetry and, you know, a lot of the poetry that I consume rhymes. And s- and so I have to ask you, do you have a favorite poet or a poet that inspired you? Like, what got you into poetry? Did you just, you know, come out of the womb saying, m- maybe saying a poem to your mother when you were born, or was it later in life that you kind of found someone who inspired you? I found, so o- originally all of the passion was directed towards studio art and sculpture and painting and that kind of thing. Mm. And then I got more involved in creative writing workshops you know, going to coffee houses when I was younger and listening to open mics and poets and other people doing stuff. And they were interesting to me. And then I started studying a little bit more. It's not so much, I mean, I think rhyming is a great thing. I think there are lots of wonderful poets that rhyme very, very well and, and well, you know William Shakespeare of course and the sonnets. So, things last forever in all different formats. I think my favorite poet is probably William Carlos Williams. He's a little bit of an inspiration even for me now, because he was a practicing physician. And he wrote during the small breaks and time that he would get during the day. And in fact, oftentimes or one of the reasons that his poems towards the end of his career got shorter and shorter was he was composing those poems on a prescription pad. And if you've ever been in a doctor's office, those are not very large pieces of paper. So he would try to capture an image in a, as quickly as he could, as succinctly as he could, and as few words as he could. He was a member of a group called the Imagists, and that's, that's both inspiring, one, because he was a professional like I am, and it's hard to find time for art. But also I read his poems, especially his shorter poems, as sort of a window into how to describe things in fiction even more eloquently and directly in the least or fewest number of words. Mm. Yeah, that, that is interesting. I know I've consumed a few different poets myself, and it's always interesting to see their styles, 'cause there are some- poets I've read that their poems are 20 pages long. You know, the opposite end- Yeah ... is you've got some really long form and, you know, I've even had, I actually interviewed Peter Gunn is a modern-day writer of epic poetry with a specific goal of feminism in mind, because a lot of epic poetry came from a time period where there weren't a lot of, you know, female heroes as the protagonist of the story. So, if you wanna check out Peter Gunn does some modern-day epic poetry, which you don't see a lot of- Oh ... people consuming anymore. So it, it's great to meet all these poets, and I gotta ask if you... Do you perform ever? Do you go to the read-alouds or anything like that? I do not anymore. I do not. I do a lot of... If I'm up talking with a microphone, it's generally discussing things like the Texas Business Court or breaches of fiduciary duty or internal investigations to groups of corporate directors and executives. So I don't really do the coffee houses as much anymore, but maybe when I get a little bit older. I'm, my, my grandmother died at 105, and my dad's currently 92, so hopefully I'll have- You've got time ... as long a mark as that, and I'll have a chance to go back to the coffee houses when I get maybe a little bit older and grayer. Right after you write your book, Confessions of an Accidental Fly Fishing Tour Guide. Yeah, so- I may go back to doing that too. We'll see. My wife may not want me to, but it was a lot of fun. Yeah, so how did you get into that? Was it just fishing was a, a hobby you enjoyed, or you were just looking for work and that happened to be what was around? I started fly fishing... Well, I started fishing very young with my father. At the time, I was growing up in Albuquerque, New Mexico. You could still get your driver's license at 15- Wow ... and a learner's permit at 14 and a half. So at 15 years old, I was let loose into the wilds of New Mexico with a fishing rod, a tent, and no supervision. I would just tell my dad when I was gonna get back, and this was before cell phones or anything like that. So I'd disappear for 24, 72 hours into the Jemez wilderness or the Santa Fe wilderness and, and deal with that and go fishing, and it just became a passion. And later when I got older, I had the opportunity to be a fishing instructor, a fly fishing instructor at a private camp. So I built a program for them over several years, and then that naturally just morphed into offers to fly fish for groups either in the wilderness, like, the northern New Mexico, or I did spend 90 days on Little Cayman, which is a eight-square mile island in the middle of the Caribbean, chasing bonefish, permit, and other type of, of trophies And for anyone listening who doesn't know what fly fishing is, we're not fishing for flies, like quite literally. It's a style of fishing. I just gotta clarify that for anyone who's never heard of it, you know? And that's crazy to think that at 14 and a half you could get g- a learner's permit, because I was in the bar here in Japan the other night, and I met this couple from Finland, and they were just, like, flabbergasted at, you know, the idea of they were like, "You can get a driver's license or, like, at least a permit when you're 16 in the States or whatever?" 'Cause their, their contradiction was they were like, "How can you not drink at 16, but you can drive?" And 'cause I think, I don't know the drinking age in Finland, but a lot of the European countries and other countries in the world- Yeah ... it's much lower. It's at least, like, 18 or lower. So they're like, "You can't drink until you're 21." 'Cause they said 18. I said, "No, it's 21 now." And they were just mind blown. They're like, "But you can drive as a teenager?" They're just, like, thinking that's crazy. So to hear it even lower- Yeah ... 14 and a half, I mean, I think about where I was with that, you know, that's kinda crazy, but... So you bounced around at a couple other jobs. How did that affect you in terms of identity and purpose? Did it kinda wear you down, or you knew you were in the journey of shaping that? Like, how did it affect you inside? Well, probably two different eras. When I was younger, it was a lot more fun. I mean, you know, rolling stone gathers no moss, so I would go do whatever I wanted to, and really didn't have any responsibilities other than myself. Then I met my wife. Or I'd known her for a very long time. We'd known each other since middle school basically. We got married, and then things started to become a little bit more serious, meaning I knew we were gonna start a family and have kids and do all kinds of things like that, and it was gonna be difficult to have sort of a wandering life bouncing from job to job and raise a family. Right. That's, that was the big change for me, was just growing a little bit older and taking on the normal responsibilities that adults do. I wanted to be a traditional father. My wife wanted to be sort of, we wanted a traditional family with one breadwinner and one, one raising the kids. And so it was gonna take a different profession than what I was engaged in at the time to do that. So we undertook that adventure and went to Upstate New York and lived in the snow for three years, which is always overwhelming if you're from the desert. Yeah. And then we came back. We moved to Dallas, and we've been here ever since. Not only that, but me being from New Jersey, born and raised, the snow in that area turns, like, black and gray after two and a half days. So it's it's gross. It's- You know? I mean, it's great to have kids there because they love the snow. They play in it. But as a grown man who has to shovel the snow, it's not great. You know, your, your back hurts- It is not ... and your knees hurts. Yeah. It is not. I tried to explain it to some of my friends who asked, you know, "It's so beautiful. It's so nice. It's so fluffy." And I said, "Well, it is, but here's a, here's an analogy for you. Any time that you need to go get... Say you forgot a quart of milk, and you need to go get it from the grocery store. I want you to take out your vacuum and vacuum in your entire house before you can even get in the car and leave, and then you will understand how much effort it takes to shovel all the snow away from a vehicle three or, you know, two or three times a day to get out for just a basic errand." Oh, yeah. It's bad, and it- it's gotten worse since I, I left home. You know, my parents call me now, and they're like, "We got a foot and a half today." And I'm like, "A foot and a half of snow?" When I was growing up, like, it was only... You know, you maybe got, like, six to 10 inches at most maybe, and most of the time you only got two to four inches. Now, it's just, I don't know, world's changing. They get, like, a foot and a half at a time, and I'm like, man. And it's, it's nothing, though. I'm part of a Canadian church group, and they send me pictures of, like, three to four feet of snow. You know, just the stop sign's buried, and they're like, "You need to stop complaining," you know? Yeah. But yeah, I, I moved down south, and interestingly enough, I move down south, and it starts snowing down south. Like, it snowed in Georgia and Florida- Wow ... last year and this year. It's like it's chasing me from New Jersey. It... Well, all the people from New York and New Jersey moving down south are bringing the snow with them, I guess. So- ... it's, like we said, it's, it's fun when you're a kid. But growing up there, especially if you're coming from a desert climate, could be an adjustment for sure. Oh, yeah. And learning that it gets to... People don't realize, the Northeast coast, it gets to, like, negative four, negative 10 degrees in the winter. It gets a lot colder than people think, so not enjoyable at all. Oh, it does. It does. It does. Where did you move in Florida? Well, I moved now to, to Jacksonville, Florida. Okay. Great town. Yeah, so, so- The home and birthplace of Lynyrd Skynyrd. It's in- It gets a little bit of snow now, but not too much, you know? Yeah. And it, unlike... See, the thing with Georgia and Florida is, unlike New Jersey and New York, the snow's gone by the end of the day. It just, it just- Oh, yeah ... it shovels itself, right? It melts. So- Yes ... that w- see, that, that would be nice if a- after our kids played in it and we took our pictures and stuff, if it all just went away, then, then I'd say, "Hey, let's move back up north." But it doesn't work quite that way. Now, what I wanna address, because you had gotten two degrees both of them in the creative writing field and, and stuff like that, but why... What was holding you up, or what seemed to be the issue with getting a job with them? Was it the, the market just didn't have open spots for those kind of degrees? Was it people weren't hiring? Was it... Like, what was the issue? I mean, two degrees, that's a lot of money. That's a lot of education, a lot of time and effort. Mm-hmm. What was the misalignment there? Well, I think it's twofold. One is you know, if you go in marketing, you can go total addressable market, right? How many jobs are there in universities across the United States for treating, teaching creative writing? Right. So it's a limited pool. And then the second part of it was that most of the people that were teaching or in those positions- Stayed ... were tenured, and they were gonna stay there for a very long time until, in, you know, not even after retirement age. They were gonna stay there until the, the universities told them that they were retired and that they needed to go. And so there just wasn't as much opportunity to do that as I thought there would be and it became a little bit more difficult. When I moved back to Albuquerque, New Mexico, my hometown, part of the problem there was that because of the national labs and all of the scientists there, everybody's spouse has a PhD in something, usually in English or something. So- Mm ... even for basic grammar courses or teaching English composition, I was up against individuals who had more credentials and had 10, 15, 20 years of teaching experience for every job position I was trying to fill. So it just became more difficult, and then I decided I was gonna do something else. I wanted to be a welder, and I was in at the vocational school learning how to weld. And I ran out of money, went by a restaurant, and the guy said, "Yeah, you can have a job, but everybody has to work two lunches." And I said, "Well, I'm in school welding." And he goes, "No, well, you're gonna have to choose. Be a welder or, or basically eat." So I chose to survive- Mm-hmm ... and waited tables for a while, and then found other jobs. And then, like I said, I decided to go to law school Yeah, welding is a, the huge industry, and restaurant-wise, I've worked at a few restaurants, and I'm sure you've had your fair share of there's so much drama for no reason at restaurants with the, the waitstaff, the cooking, the people, and all that. So yeah, but one perk I will say is I, most of the restaurants I worked at you did get a free meal, or you got discounted meals, but if you're the only one in the kitchen , you know. I'm not confessing anything, you know, not on trial. But yeah, I, I've enjoyed my fair share of, of restaurants, but usually it's the, the opposite of your story. Every time I've worked at a restaurant it was because of flexibility, of wanting- Right ... to work at a restaurant that was like, "Hey, you can take off whatever days you need or work whatever hours you need." So, sorry to hear about that. But it ultimately pushed you towards pursuing law. You call yourself an accidental lawyer because it wasn't your intention. What about when you decided to go back to school for a third degree? Did you kind of have a pep talk with yourself like, "All right, third's, third time's the charm," so to speak? We really got to pick something. Why law? Why not, you know, get something to triple down on teaching or to go into a different kind of industry or vocation? Why did lawyering call to you? So it seemed a little bit of a natural progression because there's a lot of writing in law, so it was gonna be a different type of writing but it was something that I already knew I was proficient at and that I enjoyed doing. I also had spent a lot of time, I'd spent a long time bouncing around, struggling financially and other stuff for a while. So, yeah, I won't lie, it sounds superficial, but it's a lucrative profession. It's a, a well-paid profession. Lots of lawyers make a good living, and it just seemed to be a little bit more steady provide a little bit better life for my family, and it, it it just seemed like a natural path at the time that I undertook it. I didn't really have any doubts about it. It just sort of became providence, if you will, that it was, it was something I wanted to do. It was gonna happen, and it was gonna turn out positive for my wife and I. I totally get that perspective of the, the outcome and the benefits. But looking at it upfront, was it a bit intimidating to say, "Hey, this particular profession is also gonna be the most schooling and the most money compared to any other vocation"? Or did you say, "Hey, you know, whatever we gotta do now to get that long-term benefit"? Yeah, so, a little bit of both maybe. You know, there, the, I had essentially with my career, my educational career, I had ruled out any science pathway, right? I wasn't gonna be an engineer, wasn't gonna end up being a a doctor, not without redoing even oodles more education than I wanted to do. So it was something I could do, something that I was proficient at something that I knew that I could, could succeed at. And then there is just the practicality of it. When you look around at, when you start doing job fairs or going through books on professions, et cetera, you know, it i- it is hard to beat lawyering for the reward, if you will, from a financial aspect. Now, there's a lot of stress in it. You work a lot of long hours. You spend a lot of vacations with your family out at the beach or in the pool, and you're in front of a laptop working or, or doing a Zoom call now or a hearing. But those are sacrifices you make, and over a career it all seems to balance out a little bit. And was there a particular type of law that you wanted to pursue more than other in terms of, like, criminal defense or whatever other types there are? Yeah, so there, when you go through, y- I mean, you really sort of pick between two veins of law, if you will, other than being a professor, which I knew I didn't wanna do that. So you really tr- If you break it out into two halves, it's transactional versus trial law, litigation. So you're either gonna be in a courtroom or in a boardroom helping put pe- putting together deals as a corporate lawyer or tax strategies for corporations for transactions, tax efficient things like that. Real estate lawyers deal a lot with transactions on buildings and financing. Finance lawyers do that as well. So there's sort of that transactional business side of law or the trial side of law where you're gonna end up being in a courtroom either civilly or criminally. So you're either gonna be a prosecutor or defense attorney or representing a plaintiff or a defendant in a lawsuit. And I chose trial law because I wanted to be in a courtroom. I still had an innate love and, and fondness for telling stories, and that's really all a trial is, is trying to figure out your side of what happened, your facts, and tell them the best you can in the most memorable way, which is nothing more than a story to 12 or 14 people sitting in a jury box. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I totally get that. I know for me, I guess I have a morality conflict of, you know, for me, if someone is, is guilty and I'm being paid to prove they're innocent you know, for me, that's a moral conflict. So I don't think I could do law. Because people always told me, "You should be a lawyer. You're good at speaking, you're good at writing, you're good at reading and, you know, persuasion and really looking at facts and loopholes." And I was like, for me, there's a, there's a morality conflict. And I guess there's other types of law I could go into, but- Yeah ... I gue- I, I, you know, I'm on the path I'm on, and I think I'm gonna stick on that. And, Good ... maybe in my 30s and 40s, if for some reason this isn't working, I might accidentally become a lawyer as well, and I'll, I'll use you as my inspiration. I'll keep a, you know, I'll keep your website in a lanyard printed out, and I'll be like, "He did it. I'll, I can do it too." But so- You're always welcome to call or email. Yeah. Thank you. And then how did that turn out? You- obviously, you, you know, went through the schooling and everything, and it, it went great. And then when you got to the world of court and law, was it different than you imagined? Was it a bit more stressful, a bit more shocking, a bit more demanding, or did you find it actually to be easier than you anticipated? It was different in a couple of ways. This, these days, if you're not in criminal law or doing certain types of trials, then you really you know, most cases settle these days because the cost of, of a lawsuit is so extreme that businesses- Yeah ... oftentimes, if you're gonna do, if you're gonna do business litigation, then you're gonna end up, you know, most, 95% of those cases settle, so you don't spend a whole lot of time in the courtroom. You spend a lot of time doing other things, writing, researching, arguing through briefs counseling. So as I've gotten older and moved on from being an associate to a junior partner and then a senior partner, equity partner in a firm your, your job duties morph, and you become more of a strategic advisor for corporations. You become someone that helps during times of crisis or conflict. Companies go into bankruptcy, or they get attacked for securities cases, or there's all kinds of different conflict that comes up, and so you spend a lot of time helping people navigate through very difficult situations. And that I really enjoy that my, my career has kinda turned into that. And and so I don't really plan on retiring anytime soon in the near future. It's not like I wanna get out of the profession, or I hate doing what I do. I love what I do, and will probably stick around for a while, for a long while, another 15 or 20 years until I decide what to do with my next chapter. No pun intended as an author, of course. Now, is there a particular niche that you like to serve? Is it, like, m- small mom and pop shops? Is it, like, a certain type of corporation? I- Or it's kind of whatever gets thrown your way? Do a lot of work in what I call government-facing, so defense from state or federal government against a corporation or an individual usually accused of fraud or some sort of financial shenanigans. And then also I do a lot of advising at the board level, so public company boards or private equity companies that have boards of directors and executives trying to put together large strategic operations or strategic planning defenses, that kind of thing. So I wouldn't say it's all Fortune 500 company stuff, but usually I'm involved with the corporate side of stuff as business touches on litigation or defense against the government. Okay. Now, at what point during your career as a lawyer did you decide, "Hey, I have time and purpose and passion to pursue writing while also doing lawyering"? That genesis rests in the the, the sort of the, the beginnings of COVID. Mm. Right? Everything shut down for so long. People got shut in their house. The business of law was still going on full blast, but you s- you, you needed something to take away the stir craziness, 'cause otherwise it was just being in the same place all day working all the time. So I began thinking about writing speaking, doing things of that sort. Met some people, found a mentor and coach, and just started working on it. And ultimately I think what we decided was that I really wanted to be a novelist. It was something that I've always wanted to pursue, even when I was doing poetry and short stories. And so we started rowing the boat in that direction. Yeah, so I wanna focus on specifically your book, Confessions of an Accidental Lawyer. Sure. Can you tell us about that? That is a book that comes, it, it, when you read the cover or the inside flap, it does say that, you know, it's inspired by actual events. And some of that is, it, you know, it is, took a lot of creative li- license in it, so it's not 100% autobiog- autobiographical. But it deals with two different sections of life. One is I was appointed by a federal judge to represent a prisoner who was in solitary confinement 23 hours a day, and he had been litigating a a case against a prison for not providing him with proper medication for several years. And ultimately, that case broke free and was set for trial, and there was no way for Edwin, the name of the prisoner, there was no way for Edwin to prepare for trial or do witnesses. So they pr- appointed myself and one of my friends, David Schulte, who's also been a lawyer with me here for about 25 years. And at very young lawyers, probably our third year of being lawyers, we marched up to Wichita Falls, Texas, and tried this case in federal court for Edwin. And then there's the second story, which is my wife and my journey to have a second child, and sort of all the stresses that come from family life of trying to go through IVF to try to have that second kid, and all the different things that come to bear. And when we... I had them written out essentially as two different stories, and my mentor, Aurora Winter, who's a wonderful woman, suggested that we just take a little more creative license and interweave or interleaf chapters of the two stories together and put them, put them on one chronological timeline and make it all one novel, and so we did. And that's the genesis of Confessions of an Accidental Lawyer. Mm. I have to say, you know, it's, it's a really hard thing when it comes to the prisons. I've actually done episodes with formerly incarcerated persons and other people working in government to make changes because of the neglect of medical health, mental health especially, and all the services that are supposed to be provided to prisoners or should be provided to prisoners, really and aren't. You know, every prison is obviously different. I've interviewed people from multiple different prisons including federal prison and, you know, hearing kind of their stories, and it's really sad to see. We talk a lot about reformation on this show because they are people. Yeah. You know, prison is supposed to be a place of change ultimately, right? It's supposed to be not just, quote, "a punishment," but it's supposed to be a transitionary time into a new place in life. It's supposed to be a path of redemption, right? That's why we do it. And unfortunately, we see a lot of them just- The return rate is high because they aren't set up properly in prison with resources or medical services, especially on the mental health side, to get you reacclimated to a c- to career, to society or whatever it is. You know, a lot of them, I've interviewed people, they get dropped off out of prison with a $20 Uber gift card and they're like, "All right, enjoy your life." And they have no connections, no friends, no money, no education, or all they know is life in, in the slammer, so to speak. So I think there's a lot of reformation that needs to be had. And so, to hear about that, that's a side of lawyerism that we don't hear much of. Fighting for prisoners' rights is really important, and it can be very difficult, as you describe on the the book cover, if I'm not mistaken prison-friendly town. You know, and, and, and I think Texas in general is a much more prison-friendly area compared to some other places. So that makes it a lot harder to even win those cases when there's societal or localized biasing going into it as well. Which is maybe one thing I'm interested if, if you wanna address at all. Have you found- Sure ... in the world of law a lot of biasing, a lot of unfair opinions or people weighing evidence more or less because of biasing? Whether that was the, the judge or the, the jury side or based on the area or maybe the, the company's reputation rather than what actually happened? Surprisingly, no. And you would think that the answer would be yes, but th- take it from two different aspects. One is judges. Most judges that either... I mean, we elect state court judges here in Texas or are appointed in other states or to the federal bench. They really do wanna try to get it right. They wanna get to the right answer They may not understand your argument or they may not buy your argument or whatever, but they're, I, I don't know that their decisions are oftentimes driven by bias. Yes. Yeah. I can think of only one trial where I thought I had a judge that was trying to drive, drive a result specifically by rulings- Mm-hmm uh, in order to get to what he thought the, the preconce- what w- what his preconceived outcome was. So that's not as common as you would think. And then juries are just average, regular old people. I mean, they come from all walks of life. And something amazing happens in the jury room. I've had the privilege of watching a lot of mock juries through two-pane window- Right t- two-sided glass or one-way glass, if you will and to watch them deliberate. They really take the evidence seriously. They take the instructions from the judge seriously. They debate. So, so I think there's sort of a, a conception out there that's maybe driven by Hollywood a little bit, that- 100%, yeah juries can, can railroad people, and maybe that's true in a lot... for some types of cases or in some localities at, at some time. But in general, I think juries get it right. They take the job seriously, and they work very hard because they're invested by the time they get the case. You know, they spent three... they've spent a few days there to a few weeks listening to all the information, and when they're finally let loose to go deliberate, they really wanna do a good job. So, I don't find that much bias in the practice of law. Not, not as much as you would think. Hmm. Yeah. Y- you know, I think what, what it is, you kinda hit on it, is with social media and mainstream media the one that's gonna trend the most is one that is seemingly biased or had an issue, and everyone's gonna share that one, and, and, and it represents, unfortunately, the world of law. So I think that's the case with most things, right? They're taken out of context. Context is so important. And social media is a highlight generator, right? It's a pick and choose kinda platform, so I think that's what we've seen a lot of. And then of course the I don't know what to call them really, but the, the TV judges, the TV courtroom shows that are d- I mean, I've seen some that are just so unprofessional or so definitely wouldn't... if it was real court, you know, you wouldn't be talking that way or have those kinds of results or- Amazing ... you know, it's not the full... Like you're talking about, these people are spending weeks on cases, and somet- some of these ones, it's like, "All right. This is the first time seeing the evidence. 30 minutes, your side, my side. I'm gonna throw in a bunch of jokes as the judge that are not appropriate at all, and we're gonna call it a day." So I think, yeah, people definitely have a, a twisted view of it. So the biasing aside then, what have you found to be the worst part of all this? 'Cause obviously you've had great success. You've had time to write- Mm-hmm novels. You've had time to climb out of the financial hole that your, that your life led into to bless your family and your wife and children with great stuff and, and yourself, and find purpose and identity. But that's not without hardship and sacrifice. As you mentioned, outside of the time and work demand, what have you found to be maybe the least rewarding part or even a part that's takes away from you? The I think the hardest part is probably the stress because you do take on, oftentimes, and even it's in civil law, if it's a corporate lawsuit or whatnot, you're, you're dealing with human beings oftentimes at a very difficult time, if not the worst time of their life. Hmm. And so there's a lot of, Stress that comes with the responsibility of taking on a case for someone. There's also a lot of stress that comes just from onboarding, if you will, other people's anxieties about their particular situation. You- if you're any sort of a human being at all, you become very invested in these cases. You know, one modification to the idea of biases, and you were talking about social media, on the other side of the courtroom, you know, the, the advocates themselves, the lawyers, they are biased because they're zealous- zealously advocating for their client. They believe in their client's case. They wanna win, so there's a lot of competition there, and then you see it in a lot of court cases that pick up a lot of TV coverage or become sensationalized in the media. And then you see people outside of the courtroom forming up into teams. There's team this person, team that person, and there's pr- you know, sometimes there's- Right protest and angst and anger there. Not so much in the courtroom when those jurors are there, but on the outside there's a lot of that conflict. Yeah. So the stress of it is difficult. You know, you work a lot, especially when you're a young lawyer. It's just like any profession. Everybody pays their dues, and so you end up dedicating an awful lot of your time as a young professional to the firm. I, I think I've told young associates that come on that, you know, the firm's probably gonna want somewhere between 2,500 and 3,000 hours of your time per year to get started. Now, not all that's not client work or billing work, but, you know, there, there... If you wanna build a profession and you wanna be known in the area, then you're gonna need to get out and go to business lunches. You're gonna need to go out and go to the bar association events, go out to company and corporate events, and so you spend a lot of time doing that as well. And as you pile on, as you get older, if you have a family and kids and others, then it's sort of the demand of time that takes over, and that's the most difficult thing to figure out how to balance, and that's the thing that starts to grind on you over time. And then what I wanna address, because this show is focused on recovery, so we're talking about this burden of other people's lives in your hands. Like you said, your best days are operate on other people's worst days, trying to fix their situation. For some of them, their business is falling apart. Their life is maybe gonna be going to prison, right? You got all these different things you're dealing with as a lawyer. How do you handle that stress? How do you... Obviously, for every lawyer it's different, but for you personally, was writing your outlet, or was it something else? And, or is it just, "Hey, I did everything I could do, and it's out of my hands." Like, how do you deal with that, those feelings of responsibility, accountability, of being burdened and stressed? It's difficult to do. It is you know, you try to catch rejuvenation where you can. You try to get as much sleep as you can. You try to make sure that you, you try to pay attention when, or, or be present is a better way to say it, when you go to dinner with friends or something, or you go out for the weekend with your kids. You try not to drag as much of work with you as you can, both either physically or mentally. Mm, mm. You need to be present in the moment with the people that you are, are that you love and enjoy, 'cause that's rejuvenating. A lot of people don't successfully navigate it, you know? Professions like dentists, doctors, lawyers, they have some of the highest rates of drug use, alcoholism, Yeah. Oh, yeah ... they're famous for not eating well or taking care of themselves, finding time for, for basic self-care, going to church eating right, things like that. So, you try the best you can, and then I think you give yourself a lot of grace 'cause it's really easy to be self-critical. All of us are more, our hardest critic is between our ears. So you do have to back away a little bit and realize that you're trying to do the best you can with what you got on your plate right now, and that's tough. That's tough because there's always a lot going on. Everybody knows that For sure. I think especially the hardest thing you're talking about, like being at dinner and not checking your emails or your phone or thinking- Sure about the case. I think that's hard. I mean, even for me, you know, I'm always... I'm bad at looking at emails and doing work stuff trying to fit into anywhere I can instead of saying, "Hey, this is my dedicated time off." And I think, you know, there's a bit of solopreneurism to being a lawyer in a degree that, you know, there's a lot that you handle on your own or that you're responsible for. Mm-hmm. So, you know, you had that high work drive of, let me do what I can when I can and, and not taking the time to properly rejuvenate, like you said. And I definitely have talked to a lot of doctors, lawyers, and the likes who have fallen into drug use to deal with the stress and the time, and that's unfortunate. Now, we mentioned your first book, but you have a series that you've been working on Jake Fox. And, there's the two books coming out, and I'm excited to talk about that and get everyone ready in anticipation for that. How long have you been working on that series and kind of the inspiration behind that? Right. So the inspiration a little bit comes from Confessions, the original book because it was, you know, somewhat inspired by true events. Those books are very hard to write because you need to be creative to make it interesting, but you also feel tethered somewhat to reality and the history of what actually happened. Right. So I decided to do something completely different and just make up everything, make up my own world, my own ti- Mm ... town, all that, and that was somewhat freeing. So that was part of it. And then I'm a big fan of redemption stories, of people that are completely broken and then try to build their self back up, and that's kind of the story. It's Jake Fox is a big-time lawyer who goes through an extreme personal tragedy and heads back to his own small town in, in northern Texas to try to rebuild, and finds himself, even though he just wants to practice small town law and just do simple things, he finds himself suddenly defending a teenager who's accused of murdering her father in a high-stakes trial. And when it came to this series, the name Jake Fox, what was the inspiration behind that? Because I, I know as an author, you know, when it comes to naming the book, that is vital, that is pivotal. It's hard. You have a list of all these names- ... some- sometime- hey, sometime- sometimes I, you know, I was like, I had it right away. I'm like, "This is the name." And then other times it's been like, nothing is sitting right. So Jake Fox, just using the character's name as the title, what was the, the power behind that? Some of it's inspirational, some of it's commercial, right? So when you start thinking about writing a series or you're gonna do something of a, a project that's of a longer arc, 'cause it's really conceived of a, a nine novels, so it will go on for a while. And then it's, well, how are you gonna get somebody interested in it? Some of it's an inspiration from other people. I mean, you look around and see what other very successful authors have done, and, you know, James Patterson is a big example of that. He's been very mar- he's the most successful author living, I think. And he started off with Alex Cross, and then there's a, you know, it's an Alex Cross mystery or Alex Cross this, and then there's a subtitle to most of those books. So I somewhat took that format because it made commercial sense to me. So the first three books are Jake Fox: Ties That Blind, which is out Jake Fox: Don't Forsake Me, which is coming, and then the third one is in pre-production right now, and that's Jake Fox: The Rest of the Wicked. And those are all conceived as essentially three trilogies. So three b- three sets of three books makes nine, and that just seemed to me to be kind of a easy, round number and something that I could work on over time. And each book is Jake Fox dealing with a different law case. Is that correct? To a certain extent. So the first one deals with Rose's murder trial, but then it continues on into books two and three with the same characters on the same sort of arc. So it's a continuation of the story- Mm ... even though that particular trial is done. And then as I have it currently conceived, the next two trilogies will involve many of the same, if not all the same characters, plus some new ones, on a different particular main story thread, if you will. But each book has to stand on its own. Each book's plot has to work as a novel, and then you try to build it into three books, into a trilogy, so it's all one big story for, for three novels in a row. Right. Well, I'm actually a fan of, and I know everyone has different styles. You know, there's been plenty of standalone single books that I loved but there's also many series where I've really loved watching the characters grow, you know, over time- Mm-hmm and really getting the slowed down and detailed reading. And I know that's not for everyone. Some people prefer, "Hey, we've spent so much time getting to know the characters, I feel like a lot hasn't happened." But for me, I, I love that, you know, really seeing their inner, you know, talk to themselves, how the character relationship dynamic changes. And when, when you find a good book series, you don't want it to end sometimes. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you're like, "What is this author doing?" But sometimes they're like 12 books. Like, I'm excited to, to dive in, in that. So it sounds like with this you're really gonna see Jake Fox's character change either good or bad, up and down, you know? And I think that's really realistic- Correct ... of life of course, and definitely I think it'll give us some lawyer insight that you, that you don't see. You know, it's compared to someone writing about a lawyer who's just nowadays asking ChatGPT, "You know, does a lawyer do this? Is this part of their job?" You know? I think it's definitely gonna have some, some accuracy to it that m- really immerses us into that. So you've got the, the, the first three. So where are you at? Are the rest already kind of done and you're just waiting for publication time, or you're slowly making your way through? Well- Do you have the bare bones outlined and now it's just getting those chapters done? What's that process looking like right now? Yeah. That is so it is not all done. You know the old adage, how do you eat an elephant? One teaspoon at a time. That's how we're working on it, and, you know, I still, I have my day job with all of its responsibilities. I still am a husband. Both my kids are grown up, but I spend a lot of time with them. So it's you know, you have to make time for art if it's something you're interested in. It's something I've always come back to, so it's, I, I try to get to it as much as I can when I can with as much emphasis and in- inspiration as I can. So the one is done. Like I said, the other one is significantly done, and then the third one's in pre-production where we're outlining it right now, and we'll just go forward as we see the best we can, 'cause that's all anybody can do is, you know, like I said, you gotta give yourself some grace. It's easy to feel behind in a project when you forget that you have all these other demands on your time. And so you just, like I said, a little bit of grace goes a long way. For sure. I totally understand that, you know, and- I think the biggest pressure is usually ourselves. You know, like my book God Versus the Indomitable Human Spirit was supposed to be out a while ago, and so many life events popped up that were not, you know, pre-scheduled into my writing timeline that you know- Sure I've gotten behind on that. And it's been hard, 'cause I'm like, you know, you always want it out as soon as possible. I wanna get it out, and I wanna promote it, and I wanna make impact, and I wanna... You know? But no one's really ultimately demanding it to be out now except for yourself, you know? And I've, I've, I've had to learn, like, A, it's, it's gonna get out, you know. Not everyone's gonna die tomorrow and be like, "Ah, that book- ... I never got to read it," you know? So there, there is definitely is grace, but... And I know not just with the timeline, but being a perfectionist as well, a lot of authors delay their manuscript inevitably, I know, just going through and editing it, and- Sure rereading it and editing it again and again and again just to death. And I think, you know, we need to show ourselves a little bit of grace. And then have you struggled with, I, I know many authors, myself included, you're working on the Jake Fox series, you're dedicated to it, then an idea slips in your head for a different series or a different book- Sure and you're like, "Oh, I wanna work on that, but I gotta finish this." Or what, how is that creative process going? It goes. I mean, new ideas come all the time. Even splinter or, or spinoff works from these characters, it'd be fun to take some of these characters on their own and do something else. So, you know, you do it the best you can. You try to stay motivated and it's a project, so you have to stay focused, but you can't let self-drive turn into being a self-critic to the point that you're, it's a detriment. Mm-hmm. So that's... Yeah. Well, and according to your genetic calculations, you have almost half a century of writing time left to go, so that's plenty of time- Even more than that, yeah to write a few more book series. Yeah. And- Yeah, if I retire at the age of 75, I've got 25 more years to go. So I'm not in any huge rush, but I would like to move the projects forward. Yeah. And then as far as obviously a- as authors, we want everyone to read our book, but w- would you say there's a particular niche or person who would enjoy the book more than any other? I, I think people that like thrillers or legal thrillers would enjoy the book. I also think people that like characters would enjoy the book. That's one of my, that's one of my inspirational things. I like to, I like to draw as deep a character as I can. Mm. It's not just about the plot of the book, it's about the people and how they transform over it. And so that I think people would enjoy greatly. If you like characters, if you like thrillers especially something like a John Grisham legal thriller or somebody like that, you probably would like Jake Fox. Yeah, like I said, I really like the character development. And then when you say thriller, in terms of of, like law books like this and, you know, or where there's a element of law involved in it, is it kind of like a just the stakes are high or there's a psychological suspense to it? Like, how does thriller play into it? Well, it's not, you know, a lot of people think of thrillers as sort of horror b- horror movies or something like that, that it's all about jump scares or twists coming. But to me, a thriller is all about pacing. Mm. Meaning that the book moves quickly. There are twists and turns and surprises, et cetera, and unique things, but it needs to move, and it's gotta be such that the, the the reader doesn't wanna put it down because of the pacing of the book. It's not something where you're just kinda wallowing around enjoying the pastoral descriptions or something like that. So it's a little bit, it, it's a little bit different from a lot of other fiction. But they are consumed. A lot of people love thrillers. They pass time. They get engaged with the c- characters, et cetera. For sure. Now, as we wrap up here, what would be your main takeaway for everyone, whether it's about jumping around jobs and finding your purpose- ... or if it's about, you know, getting that story inside of you out, what would you want everyone to really reflect on as we leave this conversation? Well, I, I don't think anybody should leave behind a, a, a dream of something that they wanna do, whether it's writing a novel or doing something else. If you wanna learn to fly-fish and you've never done it before and you're 65 years old, go do it, or play golf or something. You know, if, if, if the desire to do something was spoken into you and you cannot shake it, no matter how many years you ignore it, then you probably ought to go do it. And don't let inertia or self-doubt keep you from pursuing something that could be very rewarding. 'Cause like I said, if you keep circling back to it, then it probably has meaning somewhere deep in your soul to you, and you should embrace that. I agree 100%. So Mr. Stockham, great to have you here today. Yeah. I know that you know you got a lot more books in you, so once once all nine of those three sets of trilogies are out, definitely wanna have a conversation with you to see how it feels. Yeah ... my theory is that you're gonna sit down, we're gonna say, "Is it a relief? Is it a celebration?" You're gonna say, "Well, I've got a different nine-book series I started." You know? I think that's how it's gonna be. That is exactly the way it's gonna work. Yeah. So, That is the way it's gonna work, absolutely. Right. No re- they say no rest for the wicked, but really it's no rest for the writers. You know, that's, That is right ... gonna be my- There's always another poem or a book to write. Yeah. But thank you for what you do, you know, for helping those corporations- Sure ... who are facing some of the most difficult times, and then taking care of your family, and trying to create it. 'Cause ultimately, the writing isn't just about serving entertainment. It's about education and impact through fictional writing. We, right? We know that- Right ... fiction is deeply embodied with reality in it, you know? And, and stuff from, whether it's from law trials in real life to pregnancy mishaps to hardships, you know, these are all real things, just fictional characters and settings, but these are all real things. So I encourage everyone, whatever you're reading, take stuff out of it, you know? It's not just for entertainment. Yes, it can be entertaining, but there's a deep lesson to be learned, so thank you for what you're contributing to us. Well, I appreciate it, and I appreciate you taking the time to visit with me. And it's been a blessing to be here. Anytime you wanna have a conversation, I'd love to do it.