43. Being Good Shoulders: Purpose, Healing, and Staying Human in Trying Times with Dr. Liza Rankow

What if purpose isn't something you find — it's something you become?

In this episode I sit down with Dr. Liza Rankow — activist, spiritual teacher, educator, and author of Soul Medicine for a Fractured World: Healing Justice and the Path of Wholeness — for one of those conversations that makes you want to pull over and just sit with it for a minute.

Dr. Liza has spent decades at the intersection of healing, spirituality, and social justice. She's worked in pediatric oncology, LGBTQ health advocacy, and ran a nonprofit providing spiritual care for frontline activists for nearly 20 years. She knows burnout intimately — and she's found her way through it.

We talk about what it means to live with purpose not as a destination or a checklist, but as a quality of being. We get into how to stay rooted when the world feels like it's unraveling, why disconnecting is not actually the answer even when everything in you wants to, and what it looks like to be — as she puts it — good shoulders for the generations coming after us.

In this episode we cover:

• Why purpose is a way of being, not a thing to accomplish
• The false separation between inner healing and outer activism
• How to stay informed without doom-scrolling yourself into uselessness
• The worldview shift from separation to belonging — and why it matters more than any single policy win
• What intergenerational responsibility actually looks like in practice
• Finding meaning in a time of collapse without bypassing the reality of it
• Practices for going deep so you can show up fully

"The doing comes from the being. Who are we called to be? And as we be who we are here to be — the doing arises from there." — Dr. Liza Rankow

Connect with Dr. Liza Rankow:

• Website: https://www.lizarankow.org/soulmedicine
• Substack: https://lizarankow.substack.com/
• Grab Soul Medicine from the NWN Book Shop HERE

Are Ready to Question Normal in Your Life? - grab the free resource

Reclaim Your Energy A Free Guide for Women Drowning in Everyone Else's Priorities - Your first step in questioning normal in your life.

Download this simple framework to figure out what actually deserves your time, energy and attention... so you can stop drowning in everyone else's demands and start focusing on what you can actually control and influence. Grab the Guide

Transcript

Liza Rankow Podcast - full episode

Liza: [00:00:00] I talk about purpose more as. The quality of being rather than as a thing that we do or a goal or an objective.

Liza: Who are we called to be? Right? And to make the practice be living into that more fully. And then as we be who we are here to be, the doing arises from there. . 

Debbie: I'm Debbie Harrell, life coach for rebellious women, aspiring rebellious women, and also your host. This show is really for anyone who is tired of the status quo and ready to start asking the questions that we've all been conditioned to avoid. We're here to examine the systems, the cycles, and the norms that are keeping us all stuck.And we're also here to imagine and work towards something better. So if you're a [00:01:00] disruptor, a cycle breaker, or someone who just suspects there's gotta be a better way, you're in the right place. Now, for today's show.  I'm joined by Dr. Liza Ranko, activist, spiritual leader, educator, and author of the book Soul Medicine for a Fractured World: Healing, Justice, and the Path of Wholeness. Dr. Liza has spent decades at the intersection of healing, spirituality, and social justice, from pediatric oncology to LGBTQ+ health advocacy, to running a nonprofit providing spiritual care for frontline activists.She knows a thing or two about burnout, but she also knows her way through it. Uh, in this conversation, we talk about what it actually means to live with purpose, not as a destination, but as a way of being. We talk about staying rooted when the world feels like it's unraveling, and the practice of going deep so we can show up [00:02:00] fully, and why disconnecting is not actually the answer, even when you really want to.Uh, this conversation is just what we need in this moment. At least it was just what I needed. But I do need to say one thing about, uh, the audio. Uh, Dr. Liza has a soft voice and is not using a fancy podcast microphone. I did my best to level the sounds. Um, I'm reminded of the phrase, "Speak softly, but carry a big stick."Uh, Dr. Liza's big stick is definitely the power and the wisdom she's sharing in this conversation. So I really hope you hang through the, the audio fluctuations and enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

Debbie: Word. I'm really excited to be back at podcasting and I'm excited to welcome Dr. Liza rco rco. I'm really excited to welcome doc, Dr. Liza rco to the show today. Welcome. How are you? 

Liza: Um, I'm okay, Debbie. Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm really glad to be here with you. 

Debbie: We've been chatting for a while before I hit record, so I hope we didn't use [00:03:00] up all the magic.

Debbie: It was very lovely exchange before I hit re return or record, and we were both just sharing how we're, uh, consummate introverts. 

Liza: Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: So now that we've hit record, let's see how well we, uh, continue that conversation. Um, but we usually start out with giving you the opportunity to tell, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Debbie: And what has brought you to the show today? Hmm. 

Liza: Well, I would say that throughout most of my life, both personally and professionally, I've inhabited the intersection of healing, spirituality, and social justice. I'm a long time activist, a spiritual teacher and counselor and author and educator. Um, and in one of my past professional lives, I practiced medicine as a PA in pediatric [00:04:00] oncology and was involved in some of the earlier days of the, uh, L-G-B-T-Q Health Movement, doing research and advocacy.

Liza: Um, as, as I think, you know, for almost 20 years, I ran a community-based nonprofit, one life institute. That provided spiritual care for frontline activists. And most recently, of course, my focus has been on my newly released book, soul Medicine for a Fractured World, healing Justice and the Path of Wholeness.

Debbie: That's quite a background. 

Liza: Yeah. 

Debbie: Especially what we're experiencing currently in the world. 

Liza: Yeah. 

Debbie: When did your book come out? 

Liza: Um, the official pub date was in late November. 

Debbie: Okay. 

Liza: And as I was telling you [00:05:00] before we started recording, it ended up being kind of a mushy release state where it was people were getting it in from some sites like a month before that and from other sites, not until a month after that.

Liza: And so I just had to surrender, you know, all of the, all of the. Burden that we put on the release date as somehow being this magic day that has to push you to the 

Debbie: Yeah. They, they talk about, 

Liza: you know, 

Debbie: yeah. You have to be pulling all the right levers and spinning all the right dials in the right sequence for that period of time.

Debbie: So 

Liza: yeah. I'm just not built for that kind of, 

Debbie: I am 

Liza: focus, 

Debbie: you know? Same 'cause I had a friend who is launching her podcast and she's, I'm watching the way she's doing it. I'm like, oh, that's, that's all a great idea. And I remember people telling me that I should do that too. And I'm like, I just can't, [00:06:00] can't do all the moving parts at the same time as you're living your life.

Debbie: Mm-hmm. In the world that we're required to live our life in currently. Right. We were talking a little bit about that before we hit record. 

Liza: Yeah. And I have to trust that, you know, the same. I, I, I'm obviously a spiritually rooted person and I have to trust that the same spirit that gave me the assignment and that helped write the book knows where it needs to go and who needs to find it for it to do its work in the world.

Liza: So it's kind of a faith walk in that regard. Still gotta do my part. Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: But 

Liza: I'm less attached to, you know, the industry best practices. 

Debbie: Right. Do you have, I mean, it's been a few months. Do you have an idea or a sense of who is finding the book if, 

Liza: um, yes and no.

Liza: Um, I hear from people [00:07:00] in my extended network who are reading it and who are just really moved and appreciative. Um, I've done a couple of interactive Zoom sessions with people I don't know. Um, and then I hear about some circuitous pathways that folks that I have no idea how they, it came to them, but I'm grateful that it did.

Liza: So it's, you know, I think it's got its own I momentum and uh, that's 

Debbie: awesome. 

Liza: Just try to be, to be faithful to that. 

Debbie: Um, in, in full transparency, I know you sent me a little bit of, of the book and I've been having eye issues, so haven't been doing a lot of actual reading. 

Liza: Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: And now I'm kicking myself like I should have, uh, read a little bit more of it before we actually had this conversation, but now I'm excited when I get my next eye procedure and I can read with a little more ease.

Debbie: I'm gonna [00:08:00] definitely check it out. 'cause it sounds like something that could be very helpful in this particular moment in history. 

Liza: It really is about the times that we're in. You know, these times of social and political and ecological collapse and how in the face of all that, it's so, it's so natural for us to feel overwhelmed, you know, and to wanna disconnect to, to kind of push back the intensity of the pain.

Liza: But the answer I think is not to disconnect, but it's to connect more deeply, right? To, to root ourselves in, in something more powerful than the chaos, our belonging to what I call a sacred wholeness. That, that breathes through all of life. So, so the book is kind of [00:09:00] an invitation to remember and to live into that wholeness, but how we can live with purpose and meaning.

Liza: And contribute whatever is ours to this, you know, multi-generational, ongoing project of collective healing and transformation. Um, there's a way that, you know, I wrote it as part of my own search for meaning in these times, um, as, as a contribution that I hope will be helpful to others. Yeah. 

Debbie: I I'm curious, where are you finding meaning currently?

Liza: I think that each of us comes into this life with purpose. I, right. [00:10:00] And. I've always like, that's always been kind of part of my spiritual worldview, but especially in these times, you know, this is not a casual time to be alive on planet earth. This is not like a vacation incarnation kind of a season. So, you know, I have to trust that if, if, if somebody is here now, that there is something within us that chose to be here, this is a pivotal time.

Liza: Like we could either blow the whole thing up or we can shift toward a more life-giving culture. You know, and not to say there are not life-giving cultures, but the, the dominant destructive force in the world right now is, you know, is our United States, Ian. Uh, capitalist colonial [00:11:00] ity. You know, we have the biggest weapons and the biggest megaphone right now, but it doesn't have to be that way, you know, and, and so as more and more people are, are waking up and making a different choice, right?

Liza: So where, you know, it's like, where are, where are we looking? How do we find meaning? How did the people in, in Minneapolis find meaning right here's this horrific assault. And rather than doing what the attacking force expected, which is to cower at home and say, you know, let me keep myself safe, this really doesn't concern me.

Liza: They made the choice to infuse the meaning of longing, the meaning of. Community and care as core [00:12:00] values in a culture that says, oh, the most important value is my personal success and domination. So that to me is, is a, is a powerful example of finding meaning in the face of the atrocity. 

Debbie: It's so huge. I'm getting goosebumps as you're talking.

Debbie: The people in Minneapolis are so inspirational and the fact that they're doing it all in the face of like the Sub-Zero degrees, right? They're not just battling the forces, but they're like doing it while they're trying not to freeze. 

Liza: Yeah. 

Debbie: Um, and 

Liza: I, and there's people, and there's people all over the world who are, you know, like we're aware of Minneapolis because we live here and we know people in Minneapolis mm-hmm.

Liza: Who are in the streets. Right. But there's people in Palestine. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: There's people all over the world. Who are risking or who have had their security stripped away from them by [00:13:00] violence, but who are standing in dignity, in love in community, you know? And that to me is, is tremendously hopeful and inspiring.

Debbie: It's a powerful vision to hold onto. 

Liza: It is. It is. And, and, and how do each of us live into whatever our version of that is? 

Debbie: Yeah. And I, I, I love that you said that we all come into this world with purpose, but you didn't say a purpose. 

Liza: Right. 

Debbie: I feel like a lot of people get stuck on the like, what is my purpose?

Debbie: Like it's one singular thing. 

Liza: Exactly. 

Debbie: What are 

Liza: your thoughts on that? Like, it's something you can accomplish Uhhuh and check off and like, I finished my purpose. Come back. 

Debbie: Yeah. 

Liza: You know, gimme an a check 

Debbie: done. Um, 

Liza: no, I, I, I talk about purpose more as. The quality of being rather than as a thing that we do or a goal or an objective.

Liza: Who are we called to [00:14:00] be? Right? And to make the practice be living into that more fully. And then as we be who we are here to be, the doing arises from there. I have to, the doing is just a, is just a way to give legs to 

Debbie: No, I'm going to cry. Hearing you say like, yes. Yes. That's it. Like, and so I'm, I'm thinking in the back of my brain, like, do I just have these podcasts to podcasts to validate the things that I think, but it's not that I thought that we were gonna have a conversation about this, but I've said for so long it's about being, it's about we are human beings.

Debbie: It's not like humans doing, it's not like what we're doing. It's like how we are being in the world with one another. 

Liza: Right. 

Debbie: Is where we find the a pur a purpose. Our purpose in that moment. Meaning is, 

Liza: is where we find meaning. 

Debbie: Yeah. 

Liza: Yeah. 

Debbie: Um, 

Liza: yeah. And, and I know you're all about like societal norms. Well, the societal norm tells us that our purpose is [00:15:00] make a lot of money mm-hmm.

Debbie: And 

Liza: have a lot of status. Right. But that's not an authentic purpose. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: Right. Our authentic purpose is much deeper than that, and we have to go deep to find it. And the dominant culture does not encourage going deep. 

Debbie: Well, it doesn't, it doesn't encourage the slowing down and the taking the time. It might not even require deep as much as just awareness of like, why, why am I checking all these boxes?

Debbie: To accomplish this thing that society tells me. Mm-hmm. Even though the checking of the boxes isn't something that, it's really making me feel good, but I know it'll get me to that place that they quote unquote say I should want to be, 

Liza: and what world is it creating? 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: That's the other piece, you know, [00:16:00] when, when we stay within those confines, even if we are quote unquote successful in it, we're successful at perpetuating a violent and abusive world.

Liza: Right. That's not the world that I wanna live in, nor is it probably the world that most people, I mean, it's a, it's a minority of folks that are benefiting from this particular contract. 

Debbie: It's just my, it has to change their brain in some capacity. Like when you get to a certain level of wealth that it just doesn't make any sense because.

Debbie: You could, billionaires could contribute so much 

Liza: Yeah. 

Debbie: To the greater good for others and have zero impact on their way of life. 

Liza: Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: And still they don't, they'd rather hoard that wealth. 

Liza: Yeah. But why do we even bonkers even, why do we even have a world where there [00:17:00] are billionaires? 

Debbie: I don't get 

Liza: it. But there's a fundamental question there about the structure that, you know, that the dominant culture here and in, in the western parts of the western world has, has created, you know, that empire mentality.

Liza: But there are other ways to be in relationship with one another. 

Debbie: And I feel like that's part of the game too. Right? They don't give us enough time to consider those other ways. If we're so busy checking, you know, on the conveyor belt, checking the boxes, doing the thing that they say I should, we should be doing.

Liza: Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: Of course we think that's the one only way. Right. 

Liza: And we have to be careful, which we were talking about because there are 

Debbie: just me in the mouse, in my pocket 

Liza: cultures. 

Debbie: Oh yeah. 

Liza: There, there is, there's plenty of other cultures who, you know, are, are, are [00:18:00] making different choices. And there's some beautiful, creative, visionary re-imagination that's going on now.

Liza: It's just not on the news. 

Debbie: No, it's not. It's 

Liza: not. So if we seek that stuff out, if we seek out some of the, the beauty, both, both the, you know, the traditional cultural values that have persisted throughout. Empire and, and apocalypse, and then also the new emergent, you know, that a lot of younger generation folks are doing, but you know, some, some, uh, old dogs as well.

Liza: So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot happening below the surface of, you know, what we see on the news. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: Um, 

Debbie: and I appreciate you calling me, uh, calling me out on that because it, it is a bit, we [00:19:00] get super focused on, you know, United States as the central because we've been programmed that we are the best and 

Liza: the 

Debbie: dominant 

Liza: and the dominant, you know, racial capitalist, white supremacist culture of the United States.

Liza: Mm-hmm. Like even if we, even if we don't agree with it. It, there's a way that we define ourselves through it. Mm-hmm. Because that's what we're acculturated to. 

Debbie: And that's where I really think, I hope I am helping people see the way that they are participating in propping it up with the norms that they are subscribing to in their everyday life.

Debbie: Mm-hmm. Because that's a, like, it, it needs us to function. 

Liza: Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: And when we start [00:20:00] opting out, which is what I feel like, I see more and more people waking up to, you know, like once you see the Matrix, you can't unsee it. And I don't want to keep contributing to it. How do I disengage? How do I remove myself from the web?

Debbie: 'cause it's sticky and it's everywhere. Mm-hmm. 

Liza: And that's why in the book, you know, I talk about this larger wholeness. Um, the dominant culture has such great publicity agents, you know, it's like, right? It's, it seems like it's the big thing. And how can little me or little us make a dent in this huge thing, this machine, right?

Liza: But if we [00:21:00] expand our purview, right, both in terms of time and in terms of all of life, empire's actually pretty small. You know, even a couple thousand years is actually pretty small amount of time. In, you know, in, in, in the history of humanity even, but certainly in the history of this planet. And if we talk about a, the web of all life instead of the sticky web of empire that we get tangled up in and, and consumed by, if we look at the web of all life, that's a different and much larger web.

Liza: And, and, and something that um, you know, that spirit nature kind of whispered to me when I was working on the book is that just like on a spider's web where you [00:22:00] tap lightly anywhere on it, the, the vibrations travel throughout, all of it, uhhuh, that we can impact the whole from wherever we are within it, and that none of us is alone.

Liza: In this, that, you know, we, we actually are the majority when we talk, and by this we, I mean the we that is in league with this larger life, the we that is in league with wholeness. Right. That's a larger we. And that, you know, to go back to like, what, what inspires me? What, what gives me meaning? Um, that's a big piece of it.

Liza: And I have to do it reg. It's like a regular practice because we're constantly being assaulted, you know, by I the daily [00:23:00] exploits of, you know, what, what I hope is a collapsing empire. 

Debbie: Yeah. Fingers crossed. Um, I feel like it's all a practice. Every day is a practice 

Liza: Absolutely. 

Debbie: Of waking up and how am I gonna be a human today?

Liza: Yeah. And how am I gonna respond in this moment to this thing and in that moment to that thing. Yeah. 

Debbie: You had, uh, mentioned earlier a shift away from this dominant destructive 

Liza: mm-hmm. 

Debbie: What do you see as shifting to,

Liza: well, I characterize, so

Liza: if we look at all the

Liza: demonstrations of violence and oppression and domination at the root of them, I would suggest is a [00:24:00] worldview of separation and dualism, 

Debbie: right? 

Liza: The, the, the opposition, us and them right and wrong. You know, in and Out Belong and, and not that ideology, that worldview

Liza: to me without transforming that whatever winds we may have at the level of systems and structures are can't endure. You know, and we have, we have recent historical evidence, right? How hard did folks in the Freedom Movement work to pass the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act? And then, you know, that passed within my lifetime and within my lifetime, it was completely undone, right by the, by the whims of a

Liza: wannabe [00:25:00] fascist dictator president by a regressive. Supreme Court, like just undone like that because the fundamental worldview was still stuck in this pattern. So when you say what shift to me, it's that shift from that, from a worldview of separation and, and dualism to a worldview of belonging and oneness.

Debbie: Um, 

Liza: and that, I mean, I, Dr. King used to say, you know, we have to labor for, for, for transformation. Knowing that it could take generations or stay available to the idea could happen in an instant. That's a gross paraphrase. But that was the gist of it. And so, you know, I try to hold the both end of that. Like, this is a, this is a shift and we think you say shift, and it seems like, oh, that's something we'll just do next week.

Liza: You know, we could [00:26:00] just like, hmm. Just make that little shift. But this is something that's been going on, you know, for generations and generations and likely will continue for generations. What's, what is our part in our moment, right? During our brief time on the planet? Um, what, what contribution can we make and trust that just like we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us, that can we be good shoulders for those who will come after?

Liza: Um, I, I was having just really deep despair one day and saying like, I don't know how to fix this. You know, just railing to the universe. I, I, I have no idea how to fix this. And spirit said, just be shoulders because, you know, I'm so aware and grateful of. All that I stand on who came before me. And I thought, [00:27:00] I know I could be good shoulders.

Liza: I know how to do that. I don't know how to fix it, but I know how to be good shoulders and I know a lot of brilliant young people.

Debbie: Oh my gosh, yes. 

Liza: So if I can do that, like that would be a worthy contribution. 

Debbie: I like, I like that you said that. 'cause so often you hear people talking about, uh, the younger generations is pointing out all their faults.

Debbie: And I'm thinking like, hmm, I see some kids who are just tired of this bullshit and they're not gonna take it and they wanna do things differently and they're not going, they're not afraid to speak up. They were just showing some kids, of course being abused by oops, LAPD, you know, 'cause they were trying to protest and 

Liza: mm-hmm.

Debbie: And I know in our tiny little community, our kids did a walkout in solidarity with the, the folks in Minneapolis. So. Yeah, young people give me hope, and I love that idea of being, [00:28:00] being good shoulders, 

Liza: being good shoulders. Intergenerational is, you know, the older I get, the more I appreciate it. Um, you know, I have been so blessed by my relationships with folks older than myself, many of whom, if not most of whom are now ancestors.

Liza: So I still talk to them, but it's not the same as being able to just call 'em up on the phone and go sit together. Um, and I, I am just so grateful for the younger folks in my life and for our relationship, and it's, it is a mutuality. You know, each of us has gifts that benefit the other and that benefit the collective.

Liza: So, yeah. 

Debbie: Showing up in whatever way we're called and being don't be so [00:29:00] focused on the, the doing 

Liza: well, the doing will come out of the, it's like, what, what, where do you start? Right. Start. Start with going deep and listening, and then trust that what emerges from there will be of a different quality than if just our best thinking and our logic line.

Liza: Mm-hmm. Says, well, here are the steps. Let's just execute the steps. Let's know, is that Einstein that said you can't solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it? So our best thinking is really still in that paradigm that created the problem, 

Debbie: right? 

Liza: But there's something deep within us. 

Debbie: How do we give ourselves permission to

Debbie: think outside of that paradigm?

Liza: Or to tune into something that was never contained in that paradigm to begin with. 

Debbie: Yeah. [00:30:00]

Liza: When I say go deep, it's also a way to tune. Like you go deep and you expand outward. Um, it doesn't, going deep is not a narrowing down. It's actually a widening.

Debbie: Do you have any practices that help you do that

Liza: All the time. 

Debbie: What are your favorites? 

Liza: I have, I have, the book actually is full of practices, um, woven throughout the book. Each chapter ends with reflection practices, but there's also an appendix with practices and there's practices woven throughout because, you know, if we, if you can't embody it, then it's all just.

Liza: You know, it's, it's, I, I love ideas, you know, there are a lot of ideas in there, but we also need that, that embodiment and that cultivation of something in ourselves. So for me, meditation, um, but deep listening, you know, which, which [00:31:00] for some people is synonymous with meditation and for others is a, is a separate practice.

Liza: At the heart of my spiritual life is nature. Like I experienced the divine most readily through nature. And, you know, lucky for me, nature is everywhere, including us. You know, we are a part of nature. Um, so, you know, I live in a city, but it's a city that has trees and, you know, backyards and bushes growing along the sidewalk.

Liza: And there's always the sky and the sun and the earth beneath us, and we're mostly made of water. So the elements are always there and every part of nature can be our teacher. You know, there, there, it's intelligent, [00:32:00] there's an arrogance that says human beings are the pinnacle of evolution and we're the only intelligent life forms in the whole universe.

Liza: Like what? How ridiculous is that idea? You know? 

Debbie: It is. 

Liza: And, and so to, to through practice, to develop my ability to, to listen, you know, to be in a relationship with this larger life, with the wholeness, with, you know, the trees are my amazing teachers. Um, you know, but. Even like there's a squirrel that's been digging in my garden.

Liza: It's just annoying the Jesus outta me. That's not the word I was going to use, but I don't know if you, 

Debbie: I know we're, we're, we're open to that. 

Liza: And it's so bold, you know, I was out there, I was trying to clap my hands and scared away and it just looked at me and started coming towards me and I was like, oh, you know, this is, [00:33:00] and, and I'm like, okay.

Liza: I just sat down and I said, okay, what, what, you know, how are we gonna share 

Debbie: this space? 

Liza: We just, we just had, you know, we just had a, our, our little time and I apologized for, you know, not respecting that it belonged there too, and said, but can you not dig up my flower beds? Like, you know, help yourself to the seed paws or whatever it is.

Liza: Or, you know, whatever you planted last year, you're trying to find. 'cause it's digging up holes everywhere, looking for what it lost, you know? And, and so just to. It's such a different way to live. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: To be in relationship, to be in, in respectful listening. 

Debbie: Well, I feel like spending time in nature, it's easy to see how interconnected everything is.

Liza: Yeah. 

Debbie: And the more we develop our relationship with nature, we [00:34:00] realize, oh, we are part of that too. 

Liza: Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: I feel like when you're just casually spending time in nature, you feel apart from it. But the more you spend in it and you realize that it is all connected and I'm, oh wait, I'm part of this, to use the analogy we used earlier web.

Liza: Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: So how are we all going to get through this together? Um, 

Liza: and to have the humility to say that nature, the trees, the, you know, the water all, they've been here a lot longer than us humans. They probably have some wisdom to share with us right now.

Debbie: Yeah. And if we don't figure things out, they're gonna be what's left and we'll be gone.

Liza: Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: Um, I'm curious, you have this rich background of, you know, activism work and rooted in collective care and healing, but I'm curious how you came to this. 'cause it sounds like you've been doing it for a while. [00:35:00] Right? Um, so how did you, yeah. How did you first come to this? 

Liza: You know, Debbie, it's funny because I had never really thought about it till I sat down and started writing.

Liza: But I was this way when I was a little kid. Um, I maybe, you know, got seduced by the world somewhere along the way and had to find my way back to what she knew. But my. You know, we think so much. We do our inner child healing work, and we're more focused on the trauma that we hold from our childhood. But there's more, no matter what traumas we've been through, there's more to us than that.

Liza: And so, you know, I was a deeply spiritual kid. Um, I felt spirit in nature. I grew up in New York City, but I felt [00:36:00] spirit in nature. Um, my parents, this was in the sixties, um, my dad was basically a, a Jewish atheist. And my mom had been raised Lutheran when they got married in the fifties, and they weren't really doing much of anything when I came along, but.

Liza: When I was in grade school, they became seekers and they mostly through reading a lot of books. So I grew up in this climate of seeking and shelves of books. I read Paramahansa Yogananda's, autobiography of a Yogi the summer I turned nine. 

Debbie: Oh my 

Liza: goodness. And then, and then when I was in fifth grade, I got up before school and read the gospels, you know, to just intri by Jesus like I had been by Yogananda.

Liza: Um, I used, I had a little notebook. I actually still have this little notebook where I would write, I, I titled it Messages of [00:37:00] Truth. And I would write little profound sayings that just kind of came to me. And I think, who was that baby? You know? Yeah. And I also, I also grew up during the, the US War in Vietnam.

Liza: And my parents were not activists, but I was. I wore my black moratorium armband, and I, I learned the meaning of the word confiscate because my third grade teacher confiscated all my peace buttons, and I had an underground newspaper in third grade called The Dove. So I'm like, who was this baby? 

Debbie: But is amazing.

Liza: Yeah. So in, in a sense, all, you know, all these years of the journey, you know, our lives are spirals. Mm-hmm. Our lives are not straight lines. And so it is, it's not a, a circle that's an exact return, but it's a, I think more of a spiral where it's an evolutionary return and an [00:38:00] integration and embodiment and, and evolution of what is truist within us.

Liza: And so 

Debbie: that's, that is that, I mean. Because I have hints of this work that I'm doing currently in my childhood when I look back. Oh yeah. I've kind of always been interested in that. And I was always a little like pushing the buttons and questioning. Yeah. Um, but not as obvious as an underground newspaper.

Debbie: And yeah. 

Liza: And that's how I thought of it, you know, like, how did I even know what an underground newspaper was? But it was like, now we would call it a zine, buthuh. There was no such thing as a zine then. So an underground newspaper was, and it was forbidden because it was confiscated by my third grade teacher when she found it.

Liza: Um, but then I also, you know, had many years of, of not integrating, 

Debbie: right. 

Liza: So when I was a kid, I had the spirituality and this and this social justice, [00:39:00] and then I spent a lot of years either being a hardcore activist and, you know, falling to the burnout as so many do. Or, you know, I would burn out and have a health crisis and then I would have these long periods of deep spiritual healing work and then I would be strong enough to go back out into the fray.

Liza: And so I did this, you know, back and forth thing and it was like, you know why? Like really there's another way. 

Debbie: There's gotta be a better way. Yeah. 

Liza: And so I, you know, gradually, you know, through, through, through the abuse and recovery cycle in my own body, um, gradually found my way back to what my little one knew is that these are not [00:40:00] separate.

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: You know, that spirituality and social justice are not separate. That. Inner transformation and social transformation are not separate. And of course, you know, there's a whole universe of people who have known that 

Debbie: mm-hmm. 

Liza: For, you know, for centuries and, and lived it and written about it and taught about it and embodied it and so to, to intentionally study them.

Liza: And that's was a good part of what my doctoral work was, was looking for who are the people that, that gave life to that, um, integration to that synergy, you know? 

Debbie: Yeah. And letting it become an embodiment for ourself, like understanding for myself, like I understood the concept. None of us are free until we're all free.

Liza: Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: I understood it on an intellectual level, but [00:41:00] it wasn't until the recent years and the things that have been happening where. It comes to your own community and you see your friends and your neighbors feeling truly afraid and recognizing like that, oh, that could happen to them. And how does, how do I feel about that being, this is someone I care.

Debbie: So it just makes it so much more real. And it then it's like, oh, that's it. Like, now I understand it, not just here, but here. So not just in my head, but also in my heart, like 

Liza: mm-hmm. 

Debbie: No, none of us are free until we're all free. 

Liza: Yeah. 

Debbie: And,

Liza: and, and there's even another layer of it that oof, you know, talk about a, talk about an Inconvenient Truth.

Liza: Archbishop Desmond Tutu talks about this, um, I don't know if you're familiar with Valerie Kur. She's the founder of The Revolutionary Project. A just a, a beautiful [00:42:00] soul. Even our opponents were not free until they're free. Right? Yes. Without, without, without the transformation of the oppressor, the dynamic of oppression can never

Liza: be eliminated. So it's, it's, it's, you know, we're, we're used to thinking about liberation of the oppressed, which is absolutely first cause. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: You know, but that there has to be also the liberation of the oppressor and that's a much harder pill to swallow. 

Debbie: 100%. But then you, you think like there's something that's, that's caused them to feel the need to oppress people.

Liza: Exactly. Exactly. 

Debbie: So what is that? 

Liza: I spend a lot of time with that question. And what is it that helps people get free? [00:43:00] Right? So what is it that that causes, what, what, to me is, is like a spiritual ma to be able to behave with such cruelty, you know? And then you hear the stories of people who like used to be in the clan or used to be, um, white supremacists or used to be maga, right?

Liza: And now who are not, and are actually trying to go back and, and, you know, and wake up their, their former comrades, you know, what is the key to that awakening? And so often it is relationship and connection. Um, but that to me, especially as a white bodied person. You know, I feel like there's a, there's a, a certain responsibility that I have [00:44:00] to work on that front, you know, uh, uh, among others, but that, that, that, that there's a, that there's a, a leverage, you know, that we have through, really through our belonging to each other as human beings.

Liza: Um, but I, I wrestle with that. I wrestle with that a lot. But it feels, it feels central to the collective liberation, right? And transformation. 

Debbie: Yeah. I have to say, I've struggled with it a bit 'cause I've been tempted to do the blocking in the, like just tuning out. 

Liza: Yeah. 

Debbie: But then how do we know. If there is ever an opportunity to connect, we'll miss it And 

Liza: mm-hmm.

Debbie: And first myself, you know, we talked about purpose a little bit and, um, I've been [00:45:00] trying to remind myself that purpose for me right now, and it sounds a little, a little, um, different from the ways I normally communicate, but I remind myself that I'm, I, I'm here to love other people. 

Liza: Yes. 

Debbie: And how am I going to love those around me mm-hmm.

Debbie: In this moment. 

Liza: Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: And thinking of my friends who are MAGA and, um, you know, I've cared about them for, for decades and it's, it's a weird 'cause you hear the things they're supporting and, and, and I mean, I just have to believe that they're hearing a different story. 

Liza: Yeah. 

Debbie: Yeah. And how do we help them hear a different story?

Debbie: Um, I don't say, I'm not claiming to have any answers, but I struggle with the idea of like just cutting 'em off completely or [00:46:00] trying to remain open to like, there might be an opportunity that I can help them. 

Liza: Yeah. And I think curiosity can be our friend here because people don't change just 'cause you tell them a thing.

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: Right. For the longest time, my, my, my feeling was just like, I want nothing to do with any of that. And just, you know, rage and, and revulsion. And now I'm just, I'm so deeply saddened. Mm-hmm. But I'm also genuinely curious. And so I never used to be able to imagine my, I I, I've not been in, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm so siloed on the far left that I don't, I don't have any friends that, you know, that are, are in, in that camp.

Liza: But I could imagine, and I, we will see what the universe might present to [00:47:00] me now that I'm able to imagine it. But to sit down with somebody and say, you know, help me understand how you, how you came to that conclusion. And even perhaps to develop enough rapport to say, you know, with compassion, right. Not with judgment who hurt you.

Liza: Mm-hmm. What, what happened? You know, because I don't think that humans are naturally without empathy and without conscience. I think that either that is a trauma response or a social conditioning. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: Or both. 

Debbie: Both. A little bit of both. 

Liza: You know, the trauma makes you more vulnerable to the social conditioning.

Debbie: I know I read that book [00:48:00] that was written by Donald Trump's niece. 

Liza: Yeah. By Mary. 

Debbie: Yeah. 

Liza: By Mary. Yeah. I 

Debbie: mean, and, and understanding more about his upbringing, it makes it, at least it was, when I read the book, I was like, oh, 

Liza: sure. 

Debbie: That's very sad Little Donald. No wonder you're such a tyrant. 

Liza: And, and it doesn't give a pass 

Debbie: no.

Debbie: For 

Liza: the behavior in the present. 

Debbie: Not at all. 

Liza: Right? 'cause the love, love demands that we halt behaviors of harm, right? 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: And we can also do that with love for the perpetrator and say, yes, you know, and you may no longer do this. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: Um, it was, uh, the great anti-war activist Barbara Deming from, you know, back in, back in the day who talked about the two hands of nonviolence.

Liza: And that one hand is up to halt the violence to [00:49:00] say, stop this. You may not proceed with this. And the other hand is open to say, you know, let, let us build relationship in a different way. Right. And you know, it may be generations before anybody takes that hand, but we, but we keep it open. 

Debbie: Oh. That's what I try to talk to people like, oh, we just gotta get through these next few years.

Debbie: I was like, oh no, we've got a lot longer to work through this. 

Liza: Yeah. And I see those two hands active in, in Minneapolis. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: You know, there's both the standing in the way of harm saying You will not continue to snatch people up to, you know, you will not continue this. And we are here to welcome you to, to let go.

Liza: Those uniforms and that behavior. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. I loved that one video [00:50:00] that was going around of the group. Right. Singing in front of the hotel. 

Liza: Yeah. In front of the hotel. It was beautiful. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: Yeah. Yeah. Show us your courage. You can make a different choice. Come join us. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: Mm-hmm. And there, you know, and, and, and I'm sure there's plenty of people who, who met that with great cynicism and, you know, understandably so.

Liza: But each of us has a different role. You know, that's the other piece about this. It's like there's not one prescription of what makes you a good activist or, you know, anything else, but that we need, we need the whole spectrum of us. And then it comes back to the going deep within to say, who am I? 

Debbie: Mm-hmm.

Liza: What are my gifts? What is my greatest contribution? And for some it is, you know, that. Hard no to, to oppression, you know, to abuse. To assault [00:51:00] and just to fight hard against that. And for some it's, you know, walking the babies to school and bringing food. And for others it is doing, you know, the, I was gonna say the conversion practice, which in a way, you know, but the, the invitation, um, to step outside the conditioned role 

Debbie: mm-hmm.

Liza: And to step outside, you know, to go back to what I was saying before of even this, this, um, the ideology of domination. 

Debbie: Yeah. I, I wanna be mindful of time. I've had such a great conversation. I mean, even before we hit record, we had such a great conversation. But I like to wrap up with a few questions to give, to give some structure to my episodes.

Liza: Sure, sure. [00:52:00]

Debbie: Um, and some of this we may have touched on already, but it's, it's a good summary. It's always nice to highlight things. Um, so how are you taking care of yourself so you can remain engaged without burning out like you had talked about earlier? 

Liza: Right, right. And, and I think a lot of it is, you know, is kind of woven into our conversation, but, um, you know, for me it is, is at both end, right?

Liza: Is, is both, it is important to me to stay informed about what's going on. Um, but I am conscious about how I do that. So like, I'm not a doom scroller, um, because the toll that would take on me would make me unable 

Debbie: mm-hmm. 

Liza: To engage in. You know, in the transformative callings of, you know, of, of, of my purpose.

Liza: But I do like [00:53:00] listen to democracy now every day. You know, I don't watch it. I listen to it. Um, I'll sometimes look at Al Jazeera. Uh, I read Heather Cox Richardson and some other things on Substack, but I also spend time with my hands in the dirt, in my little backyard patch of earth. Um, I have a prayer partner and we, you know, also for like the last 30 years, we have been each other's main, uh, I call it a spiritual jogging partner.

Liza: So we talk through everything and then we pray on it instead of stew on it. Ah, 

Debbie: um, 

Liza: I have meditation and, and energy healing practices that, um. That I've been doing to help keep my, my body and, and my, you know, subtle bodies, you know, as, as aligned as I can because I live with, with chronic disabling [00:54:00] illness.

Liza: So I have to, you know, I have to rest the body, I have to drink water. Um, but, but also to pay attention to the beauty, you know, if, if our, if, if, if our only intake is atrocity, we're not gonna last long, but if our only intake is the sweet stuff, then we're not really here and engaged. So the both and um, 

Debbie: well, and also if we're only paying attention to the sweet stuff, the other stuff is gonna catch up to us eventually, so, 

Liza: yeah, yeah, yeah.

Debbie: Just 'cause we're ignoring it doesn't mean it's going away or solving itself. Um, the next question is about how you're staying informed, but you've already touched on that, but I, I do wanna highlight that you said you listen to democracy now as opposed to watching it. And that is a really good point.

Debbie: 'cause I also listen, but I've been thinking, I've been toying with the idea of watching it [00:55:00] in the evening instead of listening to it first thing, but I 

Liza: mm-hmm. 

Debbie: I kind of, 

Liza: and it's a, it's a titration, Debbie, you know, there are, there are, I think for each of us, there are days when we can take in more 

Debbie: mm-hmm.

Liza: And days when that would actually be counterproductive. 

Debbie: Yeah. And that goes back to me saying like, I feel like every day is a practice of 

Liza: mm-hmm. 

Debbie: How am I going to be today? Because every day is. There's new things popping up and we are different people. Right. You talked about chronic illness. I have an autoimmune issue.

Debbie: So it's also like, okay, how is my body feeling today? Mm-hmm. H how much energy do I have to, to, um, contribute and how much resting do I need to do in drinking water? 

Liza: And that that's, and that, that is

Liza: part of how we make sure that we stay [00:56:00] able to contribute to the larger Right. We're not, we're not saying, oh, well I can't do that. And so, you know, peace out. Good luck, y'all. It's, it's, we, it's, you know, I think of it like the in breath and the out breath. We need both. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: We need both. If we don't ever breathe in, we won't have anything to breathe out.

Liza: But if we only breathe in, then there's, you know, 

Debbie: we're gonna be 

Liza: like Violet, like, where do you go? There's nothing, there's nothing, there's no circulation there. 

Debbie: I've got the vision visual of Violet from Willy Wonka when she, it's blueberry juice, but she blows up like a balloon. 

Liza: Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: Um, and so we've talked about the shift a little bit.

Debbie: We've talked about the dominant structures mm-hmm. Starting to crumble. What, what is your vision and hope for the future? 

Liza: Mm-hmm.

Liza: Well, it, it is, [00:57:00] it is, you know, to me that that world rooted in oneness, in, in belonging, in reverence for not only other human beings, but for the planet and for all of life. Um, I don't have, you know, like a concrete vision 

Debbie: mm-hmm. 

Liza: Of what the systems and structures of that world would be, but I want to, I wanna do what I can to help midwife a world that is, that is rooted in that soil.

Liza: Right. Um, and I'm excited, you know, I'll probably be watching from ancestor world at that point. Um, but, you know, there are seedlings of it now. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: And so I think, you know, [00:58:00] the invitation is, is how do we, in, in my generation, how do I nurture, help nurture those seedlings? How do we hold space? For the generations that are the primary tenders of those seedlings.

Debbie: Yeah. Hold space for the them and be the good shoulders that they need. 

Liza: Yeah. Yeah. And to live from that paradigm as much as I can now. Like, what is that demand? 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. 

Liza: Right. Because we have to, it's not like we say, well, I'll, you know, I'll start acting from oneness when the world changes, when it gets here.

Liza: Right. The world's acting like it gets here through each of us. Right. So what does that, what does that demand moment to moment choice to choice? How does that demand that I respond, you know, to what's on the news and [00:59:00] what's in the neighborhood? 

Debbie: Yes. That's it. That's what are the choices we're making every day, and how is that contributing to that vision we have?

Liza: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Debbie: That's, 

Liza: yeah, 

Debbie: that's the challenge. And the agency, the opportunity, 

Liza: exactly the invitation. 

Debbie: Mm-hmm. Because I can make choices that are easy and ingrained, but are definitely not gonna take me in the direction of that vision. Mm-hmm

Debbie: Huh. Well, is there anything you were hoping we would touch on that we haven't touched on yet? 

Liza: No, we just went far and wide, didn't we? But I would love, yeah, I would love to do just a little, a little pitch and let people know, um, that, you know, if you wanna learn more about my book, um, my website is my name, but because that's harder to spell and [01:00:00] remember, you can get there through soul medicine book.com.

Liza: Oh. And from there you could find my substack and my social media and all the things, some practices, um, guided practices are on there. And I try to add more things regularly, but I would, if anybody felt resonant or curious, um, about the things that I shared in our wonderful conversation, um, I hope that they'll maybe check out the book and find more.

Debbie: Yeah, definitely. I know I'm going to grab a copy. 

Liza: Great. 

Debbie: Um, and I'll definitely share all those links in the show notes. Great. Um, so if listeners were to take just one thing from this conversation, what, what do you hope they're taking away with them?

Liza: That you have gifts and purpose that are needed in the world in this time. Yeah, 

Debbie: I think I'm gonna cry. I think that's, I think that's a [01:01:00] great place to end. Thank you so much for your time. Um, 

Liza: thank you Debbie, 

Debbie: and your wisdom. I really appreciate what you were, what you've shared in the conversation we had today.

Liza: Mm-hmm. Thank you so much, and thank you for your vision and the work that you do. 

Debbie: We'll get there someday, some generation.