Ink Medicine

Ep. 76: Jews With Tattoos, a conversation with Ali, That Jewish Feminist

• Micah Riot • Season 1 • Episode 76

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Ali is the creator of the Instagram community @jews.withtattoos
After starting the page she quickly gained a following, and as people started requesting guidance on finding Jewish tattoo artists, she created a spreadsheet to help artists and clients connect. You can find that spreadsheet linked to the above mentioned Instagram page, Jews With Tattoos (https://www.instagram.com/jews.withtattoos/)

I met Ali briefly last fall when she reached out wanting to highlight me as a tattoo artist and a fellow jew. At the time I wasn't ready to be highlighted. But recently I decided I wanted to ask her to be on Ink Medicine and tell my audience about her journey as a tattoo collector and an online activist.

You can find Ali on Jews.WithTattoos, also on https://www.instagram.com/thatjewishfeminist/
And on Tik Tok as That Jewish Feminist where she talks about ... being a Jewish Feminist. And other important things we don't talk about enough.

All of the tattoo artists Ali mentions linked below:
https://www.instagram.com/kat.o.tat     Kat, (Boston area)

https://www.instagram.com/beastlyflowers    Aaliyah (Muslim identified artist, in case you're looking for one, based in Boston area)

https://www.instagram.com/sarahroseink      Sarah (Boston area)

https://www.instagram.com/ant_grayce      Ant (specializes in tricky spots like butt cheeks) (Philly, but travels)

https://www.instagram.com/razzoukwassim     Razzouk, (based in Israel)

You can connect with me, Micah Riot, as well as see my tattoo art on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/micahriot/

Micah's website is www.micahriot.com
The podcast is hosted on Buzzsprout but truly lives in the heart of Micah's website at:
https://www.micahriot.com/ink-medicine-podcast/

Micah Riot:

Hello, dear listeners, mayaka Rai here. Welcome to Ink Medicine Podcast, where I and other people delve deeper into our obsession with tattoos and tattoo culture and the people who make this community so great. Today I'm talking to Ali of Jews with Tattoos, a community on Instagram. She approached me sometime in the fall. She wanted to highlight me as a Jewish tattoo artist on her page, which was so sweet and generous, and at the time I just could not say yes, which we will talk about in the episode. And since then I have felt more comfortable to be publicly out as a Jewish person, as secular as I am, and I decided to ask her to be on the podcast.

Micah Riot:

So here we are we talk about being Jewish and loving tattoos, we talk about being secular, we talk about being a Jewish person online and what that is like, and we acknowledge our grief about the people of Gaza losing their lives unnecessarily under the fire of Israeli government. But that is not the focus of this episode. It's really all about Jews with tattoos and how Ali came to create the community that she has created on the internet, on Instagram, and I'm always curious about people's tattoo journeys, so I do delve quite a bit into her personal journey in getting tattooed, and how she positions herself as a client, how she seeks out her artists and why and how she feels about the state of modern tattoo culture. Ali is the sweetest human and I think you'll really enjoy this episode. So here we go.

Ali:

Hi, ali hello nice to meet you nice to meet you too.

Micah Riot:

Thanks for agreeing to come on the podcast of course I mean, we're on theme, you're a big tattoo lover, so this is a tattoo related podcast. So let's say, will you tell us um, your, your name, as much as maybe you have a bigger name, a longer name, your pronouns, where you are located and what was the last tattoo you got?

Ali:

Yeah, so my name is Allie, I'm online, I'm known as that Jewish feminist, or Jews with tattoos. My pronouns are she, her, and I live in the Boston area. The last tattoo I got, I started on my back piece, which is like a larger um art nouveau work with jewish themes, and I'm really, really excited about it that's super cool.

Micah Riot:

Um, can I see it? I mean, yeah, but you're like wearing a top where I can see some of it, okay this here, so it's synagogue on one side and um lady justice on the other.

Ali:

I don't, can you see, kind of? Yes, I can kind of see, uh, yeah yeah, so it's like it's gonna be a while before it gets done, um, it's gonna be like multiple, multiple sessions, um. But just started with the two figures on the side for now okay, um, so tell me about your like journey into this.

Micah Riot:

So you're? You look really young, like you're in your 20s, I assume almost 20 yeah right and you're like you're getting you clearly, you know well tattooed. At this point you're getting work clearly for a while now, like what has it been like for you? Like when did you, how old were you when you were first?

Ali:

like I'm definitely gonna get tattoos when I get older so I think I was always kind of fascinated with tattooing um. I came I'm a patrilineal Jew, so my dad is Jewish but my mom is not, and I was raised um interfaith and my mom, even though she didn't have tattoos, was always like very pro tattoo um and she had a fascination with it as well. And so growing up interfaith and growing up in reform Judaism I had, I didn't have the negative view of tattooing that a lot of Jews have and I always thought like when the time is right, I will come up with something and I will get my first tattoo and then that'll start me on a journey. I'll either think that this is like the worst pain in the world and never do it again, or I will love it. And I loved it. It was actually partly despite my mom. My mom thought I wouldn't be able to take the pain of tattooing. She was like convinced, and I got a cartilage piercing and she was like you're not gonna be able to take the pain of tattooing. She was like convinced and, um, I got a cartilage piercing and she was like you're not gonna be able to take that and I, I got that with no problem. And then after the first tattoo, I was like mom, that was nothing, um. So my first tattoo I got in 2017.

Ali:

Um, back then, like 2015, 2016, 2017 it was really trendy to get an inner finger tattoo, and so on my inner finger on my right hand, I have Hebrew lettering that says Zihut, which means identity, and I really wanted my first tattoo to be something Jewish themed and something that had a lot of meaning, to be something Jewish themed and something that had a lot of meaning. I felt like I had other ideas for tattoos, but I couldn't really move forward with any of them until I got this one. I just wanted this to be the first one, and I expected to be in a lot of pain and really like I handled it pretty well. I got it in the old city in Jerusalem, at Razuk, and they have a long history of tattooing being passed down from generations and they have a beautiful story, and so it just really felt like a meaningful experience to me, and from there I got one other tattoo in 2017.

Ali:

And then I finished my senior year of college. I was very college poor, and so there was no tattooing happening while I was still in school, and then, once I got out of school, I started to look into tattoos in the Boston area, which was where I moved to, and in 2020 was really where I amped up tattooing. I was working for a Jewish organization and I wasn't sure exactly how they were going to feel about me getting tattoos. But in 2020, I was working remotely, so it wasn't like every single day people are going to see a new tattoo appear on me, and so it felt more normalized for myself and yeah, then it's just kind of gone on from there.

Ali:

I really enjoy working with a core group of non-binary and female tattooers, and then I also love just going to flash days like finding new artists and seeing that they have like cool flash and getting that tattooed. Flash days make me so happy. I don't know why. It's a lot of sitting around, but I just love doing them, um, so that's kind of where I'm at right now okay, that's fun that you're saying that.

Micah Riot:

I you know, like I came up in an era where flash days weren't a thing anymore, like we all went super custom and it was all custom for a long time and now they're back, but because I have a private studio, like I don't you know, it's not something I really have done, but recently a friend of mine who owns a bigger shop was like let's do like a flash day for a bunch of us, like a big community flash day. So I'm participating in a flash day at another shop where it's like circus style, flash like circus and that's so cool. Yeah, like show comes to town like. And I was like, oh cool, like little circusy figurines and like snacks, like you know, um, what do you call that stuff?

Ali:

the uh, like the peanuts.

Micah Riot:

I don't know if I'll draw peanuts.

Ali:

That seems small but um snack peanuts that people eat at the circus, totally yes.

Micah Riot:

I mean I could be like any kind of old school. I was like thinking old school, but anyway I'm excited to like draw a little circusy things. I'm drawing like a silly looking tiger drumming through a hoop of fire and stuff, but anyway I have not done a flash day ever in like my 15 plus now years of tattooing and I'm doing my first one like in a couple weeks that's so exciting.

Ali:

I find that, like people get so excited around flash days the one that I there's a private studio that I go to, that, um, they, they have flash days, like maybe once every two months and people line. People line up for a noon start at like nine in the morning, and so I'm always I always like grab my husband. I'm like we're going early. This time we're gonna be like first in line. I'm always like fourth in line nice, that's how you get.

Micah Riot:

That's how you get it. Yeah, you got to be there early, but yeah, like I don't, your studio must have a really big online following, because I feel like that's a key to a successful flash day is like getting the word out having lots of people know about it oh yeah, the artist that I go to there um, her handle on Instagram is katotat.

Ali:

Um, she went viral when she was an apprentice on TikTok and so she really like brings out a lot of people for her flash days and I'm always like lining up to go to them.

Micah Riot:

Okay. So has it been important for you, since you have you hold such a strong Jewish identity, to find Jewish tattooists also? Or you're just fine with like, as long as they're not like straight men? You know? You know because you're saying you work with non-binary and women artists.

Ali:

Yeah, I think so kind of two answers there. I like working with Jewish artists when I can, and one of the core people I work with is a Jewish artist, but for me it's really just about like feeling comfortable in that vulnerable space and having someone who like recognizes and understands that my identity plays a part in how I'm getting tattooed and I don't like to close myself off to just Jewish tattoo artists, um, personally, but I totally understand people who do really like to have that affinity group there when they get tattooed.

Ali:

for me I it's such a vulnerable experience to get tattooed and you have, like I think people underestimate like the hands touching you, like everywhere, and especially if you're especially, like you're getting a spot where, like skin is being stretched, like you really have to give over a certain amount of control to another person, um, and for me, like I feel more comfortable ceding control to non-binary and women artists, um, but that's not to say men can't be fantastic tattoo artists. I have gotten tattoos by men, but in general, like my core group, I like to work with women and non-binary people.

Micah Riot:

So you say your core group, like how many artists do you keep in this core group of yours?

Ali:

I know it sounds, I'm just I'm trying to come up with a way to describe it. No, I think it's fine.

Micah Riot:

I think it's like you know there's different ways, like I did an episode on what I called polytattery, which is when you get different, different work from different people in the same time frame, which is a way for sure people do. It's like different people approach it differently, right? I have clients who are like I'm only ever going to you, and people who were going to me for a while but then started going to somebody else because they wanted a different style, right? So there's different ways to collect, but it sounds like you go to different people in the same timeframe.

Ali:

Yeah, so I have three tattoo artists that I work with very consistently, um, and they all know about each other. I like I felt weird at first. I was really going to one person. She's at Lucky's Tattoo and Piercing in Cambridge, massachusetts Aaliyah. She is fantastic. I was going to her really really consistently from like 2021 to 2023. Almost just her, like a few people here and there, but really just her. But then she got popular and she was really hard to book and I totally root for her success. But I had like things I wanted to get done and so I looked at other artists during that time and started working with at Pearl Street Tattoo Club, sarah and Cat O Tat, who is fantastic. They all do black work but they are slight variations of each other. I find that like Aaliyah does like really good, like packed in trad black, sarah is much more like etching style.

Ali:

And then Cat does fine line work and so it's kind of these facets of things that I like about tattooing and like to have on my body and I feel really great that I have like this core group that like understands that I'm gonna get tattooed by other people and is like supportive of that and kind about it um and then I just also like I find artists in my area and we'll go to them and just like kind of temperature check and see how I feel about getting things done by them.

Ali:

Or like someone does like really trad pieces and I'm someone who only has black work and black and gray tattoos, but I really want something in a trad style. So I'll work with them one time and just get that piece and like that's kind of how I work with that. Um, but if I see flash, I like I'll go to anyone pretty much. But for custom stuff. I have, like those three people that I go to, yeah, I mean it makes sense.

Micah Riot:

I think you know, as long as you are really open with people like hey, you're one of three people that I go to consistently, it's all good. It's like you know where it becomes when you come, come to the same person over and over and over again and then you show up with a brand new tattoo, say nothing, like you know, and the other person's like you got a new tattoo, like you didn't not that you owe me anything, but like it's nice to be, to have my client be like look, I'm traveling, I'm gonna get a piece from this person, or what? Like what I was chasing is it just? I just like a heads up. Just because it's otherwise, it's awkward, you know.

Ali:

So awkward. The first time I had to tell Aaliyah I was working with someone else was so awkward, but she was like so great about it and we're like very communicative. Aaliyah is the person doing my back piece also.

Ali:

And she identifies with a Muslim culture, she has a, she has an interfaith background, and so that has been a really great cultural exchange between us and we talk about the similarities that we have all the time between Judaism, being raised in Judaism and being raised in Islam and the intersections there, and that's so interesting to me.

Micah Riot:

Yeah, fuck, yeah, I mean the conversation. Right, my conversations with my clients are like one of the best parts of the job for sure, like sharing your different backgrounds and like your thoughts on things like book recs, like anything. It's for sure one of the better parts. Cool, I love that. And I love that you're shouting them out right now as we talk, because I'm going to put all the links you know in the show notes and make sure people know who you're mentioning. I think it's great, like I'm sure all you artists really appreciate, you know, having their name out there one more time, even if, like you know, it's a small podcast it's your livelihood, so I like I like to put it in wherever I can have you noticed that it's been um like, it seems, from the perspective of tattooists?

Micah Riot:

people are talking about how much less busy they are than they have been like, than they are used to being. You know people who never opened their books, opening their books, people who were booked out a year now booked out a month, like that type of thing. Have you noticed that, as a client, that you're getting easier entry into people's books?

Ali:

Not at all. Actually, I don't know if it's just like my. The people I book with are just like really booked up and really popular, but I think like, for example, like Kat has a really she does specifically like a trauma centered approach, and so I think that people looking for for that like are really gonna like flop to her, since she's super open about that, and then, like the other two work for really really popular shops, and so I think that they're just they're like booked out to forever. Um, I'm like always booking like two months down the line with them to get a weekend day, um, and so I but I have noticed a lot of discourse around like the being, like not booking as often um issue, and it seems like it's kind of a mixed bag. It's also that boston is like it's it's a city environment too, so like a lot of walk-ins to places and things like that.

Micah Riot:

There's still a walk-in culture, huh, because there's not much of one here anymore it depends.

Ali:

So there's, um, there's certain studios that are very clear that they're private and they don't do walk-ins. Some will have like a walk-in day, um, like my artist alia, like the third wednesday of every month is a walk-in day, um, and so it depends. But then there are shops like um north street uh tattoo shop in uh salem, which is just like an hour out from me. Um, they do walk-ins every day and flash off the wall type thing.

Ali:

They're like more of a trad shop and so yeah, so it's kind of a mixed bag okay, interesting have you?

Micah Riot:

I feel like you're, you'd be like a really good um tattoo artist, manager or something you're like you would like represent. Well, what do you like? What do you do for your job?

Ali:

I'm a comms director, okay, yeah, so I do a lot of um, I run a comms department for a uh, civic engagement non-profit um, do a lot of I run a comms department for a civic engagement nonprofit and so a lot of progressive advocacy and, yeah, so social media and just talking to people is like one of my favorite things to have engaged dialogue with people, people, um, and tattooing is just something like it's like one of my like niche little neuro divergent things that I like am very interested in and so, like I do like a lot of research on it and like so that I can understand like language and the culture and like the conversations going on, because I think, as a client, like I want to be connected into like the some of the not all the conversation, but some of them that the artists are having, because it as clients, like we have bias and that should be addressed. Um, and they're the tattooing industry is growing and I think like it's important for us to recognize those things please say more about having bias as a client.

Ali:

I think like there's a lot of. So I mean, just on the basic level of like what we're getting tattooed, I think that there's more attention to. Are we appropriating other cultures Are how? Where did this art come from? And if you grabbed it off Pinterest, is that artist okay with you using this?

Ali:

Is that the work of another tattoo artist that you could book with in the future? Is your artist changing the artwork rather than just tracing it onto a piece of paper? Things like that. There's much more awareness to that, both on from my perception, both on the artist side and the client side. And then there's thinking about shop values. Are you going to go to a shop and expect to be treated badly?

Ali:

I think that there's this perception for a long time that, like, because tattooing involves pain, tattooing also should involve emotional pain, and I think that there's a shift, um, both on the client advocacy side and on artist empathy, to like address that and make sure that clients feel safe.

Ali:

Um, and then there's also like there's a bias, I think, from watching things like Ink Master, um, and like the separation from like client and personhood and making sure that we're not like separating ourselves out in the tattooing process, and also recognizing that, like we should be pushing for artists to be more inclusive of those with melanated skin, we should be going to shops that support that, and things like that. I think, like being connected to the conversations that tattoo artists are having has led me to look into those things a little bit more and think about where am I going to? Are the shops that I'm going to hiring marginalized people, or is this all white women and white men? What is the ratio of men to women at this shop? Do the women seem like they are appreciated and treated well? Things like that.

Micah Riot:

That's amazing to hear a client say that you know and and I mean like I think you know I try not to like bring isms into things like conversations, you know, but like I think age can have a lot to do with it, because your generation is having the culture of you growing up and is so different from the culture that I was in my twenties and especially around tattoo shops.

Micah Riot:

I mean in general, right, like social media has created environment where people understand gender more, they understand sexuality more, they understand the way that things can be fluid or that they can be both, and like there could be such solitude and complexity. And like people's identities and people's worlds Neurodivergence has become like much more of a thing we talk about, right? So like you're growing up, you're being a young adult in like a really different environment, but it's just like wonderful to hear you say that, because I think you know, know I would fight for that. Like tattooing through my 20s, asking clients to think about things, was impossible. Like people were like what the fuck? I'm just gonna go to somebody else, like why are you talking to me about this?

Ali:

yeah. I think we live in an age of information. Like information is readily available, and I think that to not take advantage of that information is to miss out on so many opportunities for nuance and growth.

Micah Riot:

And to be kind right, To be a good citizen of the world.

Ali:

Exactly.

Micah Riot:

Yeah, yeah. But I mean that's, you know, somebody was wanting something appropriative and I said, well, let's think about this. Like how can we make it? You know the right thing for you, because you don't come from this culture. Like, personally, I just be like I'm not, I don't care, I want this thing, I'm gonna go to somebody else and get it anyway. Yeah, right. Or when people there was a piece um, there was no virality back then, but I'd post photos of my tattoos sometimes and a couple pieces would go pretty widely I guess viral or whatever and I would get emails from people being like I, I'm going to copy this tattoo. What does it say? You know, it was in different language and I'd be like you can't copy this tattoo and like they would just be like I'm going to do whatever I want. Like I'm like what can you do? Right? So there was no like way to defend that my own integrity in it. In that way, people will do what they do.

Ali:

So the more people you know are aware, the more I think we appreciate it yeah, and that issue like with people copying artwork is like part of the reason I like so heavily credit my tattoo artist, like being someone who's out there on social media like people see my tattoos and I have a Pinterest board for my tattoos and I constantly like people are gonna do what they want to do and I can the Pinterest board for my tattoos and I constantly like people are going to do what they want to do and I can't control them but to the best of my ability I'm going to credit all of my artists. I'm going to ask people not to copy tattoos directly. To like work with an artist custom. If you have an idea from concept to drawing, like you should be working with an artist for something original so how do you envision your body of work growing like what are your when you are 80?

Micah Riot:

what do you envision you look like tattoo wise?

Ali:

I think, well, this is, this is really um optimistic, I would say everything but um neck and face, like that's kind of, with like some gaps obviously, but like most, why not? Why no neck, just be. Well, let's see if the world changes, because the world is constantly changing. I mean, like five years ago, I probably couldn't have had a hand tattoo and worked in politics, but I worry professionally, like, about getting a neck tattoo and professional perception. Um, I'm still at a point where, besides for my hand tattoo, I can, like cover things at work. My workplace currently is very accepting of my tattoos, um, but I worry about getting jobs in the future.

Micah Riot:

Um, but let's say you're 65 and you've retired, right, and you still have. You still have a decade or whatever of getting tattooed. There does come a point when a person's skin gets too old to be tattooed. Well, it kind of starts to kind of break apart as you try to tattoo it. So it's a sad day for folks because a lot of times people you know get to an age and they're like I want to start getting tattooed, I want lots of tattoos, and you're're like you have a couple of years, like let's go, like time is ticking, but say you know, say this is not an issue.

Ali:

Oh yeah, neck done. Uh, side of the head definitely done. Uh, yeah, I w I would pretty much. I think like my face is like the one thing I'd like to leave. I just I like, I like how my face looks and so I feel like a lot of my tattooing is like bodily affirmation and like making myself feel like more at home in my skin. Where I feel like my face I feel at home in. But like other things, I think like I, we, I can like put artwork on my skin and make it look beautiful.

Micah Riot:

So say more about that, Like what, um, how do you feel like your self image has changed as you spend the last? What has it been seven years getting tattooed?

Ali:

I think like I'm someone I've struggled with body dysmorphia, but I don't get tattooed to like cover up the things that I'm insecure about.

Ali:

I just think like there are these like areas of my skin that just feel like, oh, that's not exactly me, like that doesn't feel like me yet, and then I put something on it and it just feels like I've like made this into a template for like beautifulness.

Ali:

Like, for example, I have my butt tattooed and I actually originally got a tattoo. That was my second tattoo and I covered it up because I got it done and it was a fine tattoo, like there was nothing wrong with it. But I got it done thinking that that would like affirm that part of my body, and then, once I saw it, I was like I don't feel affirmed by this and I feel like there's better things that can be done with this space. And so now I have big peonies covering both butt cheeks and that to me, like I never felt this need to like look at my butt before, but now I'm like looking at my butt all the time. I'm like this is so beautiful, and so that's kind of what I'm doing, like it's not to cover up something, but it's to make my body something that I really like, want to look at and like. I mean. Bodily acceptance is like an ongoing journey, I think for pretty much everyone, but this takes me one step closer closer.

Micah Riot:

Yeah, I feel like butt tattoos are really tricky, so I'm glad you ended up with something you really like. What do you mind if I ask like what did you? What was the original idea that you got covered up?

Ali:

Yeah. So I okay. When you get tattooed when you're 20, you just have like weird. So it was right after I got the Hebrew tattoo on my finger, which was so meaningful, after I got the Hebrew tattoo on my finger, which was so meaningful, and then my friend had gotten a butt tattoo and I was like that looks so good, I want a butt tattoo too. And I spent about five minutes looking something up and I got the like the circle and the two moons over the butt, like kind of in the lower back kind of like low on the butt cheek.

Ali:

Like it was small, like it wasn't that big, like for me it was big at the time, but it was actually pretty.

Ali:

It was like palm size, I would say, with like the Wiccan symbol for goddess, and my reasoning at the time, like going back to 20 year old self, was that's hot. And right after I got it, I was like this is just, I mean, it's like nice, it was well done, but it just didn't make me feel more like me and so, yeah, now I'm like my butt is fully tattooed. I went to an artist that specializes in tricky places. This is on Instagram Aunt Grace. They're based in Philadelphia, but they were actually traveling to guest at Boston Tattoo Company and I had seen that they specialize in cover ups and in tricky spots.

Ali:

So like knee, ditches, elbows, hands and butts and I book with them and it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. I'm actually getting the shading finished on that next month.

Micah Riot:

What was the sensation like with the butt tattoo? Because I feel like it's such a mixed bag, like it can be, like I have a little bit on my butt and it. I remember getting it done. I loved it. I was like the sensation is fantastic, I love it. It's like a massage. But I wasn't tattooed people's butts and heard people talk about their butts being tattooed as like horrible. So what was your experience?

Ali:

so the first one I actually because I didn't have much metric for like comparison and I had gotten the finger one done and that was so quick and like not painful that I thought it was so painful when I got it done the first time that I was really nervous. The second time because I'm getting something much larger, um, much more shading and just really like long lines, things like that. Um and I it was like five out of ten. It was really not that bad in terms of pain and there were some lines like what you said.

Ali:

They were like satisfying when you could feel them all those like that doesn't feel bad, like at all like that's mildly orgasmic.

Micah Riot:

I kind of really like it.

Ali:

It's like a difference, it's like a sensation you don't feel in your daily life. Um, but yeah, by like hour five I was a little done with it, but you're, you're tough.

Micah Riot:

Five hours, that's tough yeah you're tough, I've sat okay, you're like I love that. The um har har. You've sat right because you were laying, probably in your belly oh yeah but just but that is the term you you're sitting for a tattoo. It's just funny when it's on your butt, that's you're not sitting, just I'm contorting for a tattoo contorting for a tattoo. Yeah right, like being in a weird position. I try to get my clients as relaxed as I can.

Ali:

They're usually lying down yeah, I usually like the pillow between my legs when I get the hip stuff done and my the leg that's not being tattooed is the one twitching always um, no matter what I do, I'm sure you sit perfectly well for your artists.

Micah Riot:

That's what they tell me. Yeah, they I I'm sure they're not lying, because we don't just say that. Like, we will say that if it's true, you know, and if someone isn't sitting well, we don't say anything. So yeah, um, did you end up? Did you marry a Jewish person?

Ali:

Yes, so we're both patrilineal Jews. Um, he was not tattooed when we met I actually, when I met him, I wasn't tattooed either. Um, we met in 2016. Um and I had piercings at that time, but, um, no tattoos. He had no tattoos. He came from a background where his dad actually, like, hated tattoos and was like, not under my roof, and so then I started getting tattooed. He was like I want to get tattooed also, but he was still like living with his dad for a bit, tattooed also, but he was still like living with his dad for a bit. Um, but when he moved out finally, um, he got his first tattoo was, um, a high behind his ear. Um, cause.

Ali:

I told him to try something like easy to just like pain tolerance. He is a bigger baby than me in some ways, but a lot tougher than me and others. Like he has his ditches tattooed and I will. I can't even imagine you're gonna be fine.

Micah Riot:

I promise you'll be fine the ditches scare me.

Ali:

I mean I have this elbow hinge. That really hurt.

Micah Riot:

But it's, it's not, it's fine. I I'm interacting with train of thought, but I think that, um, what it sounds to me like is you're probably, you probably sit really well, you have really high pain tolerance, and then, once in a while, you'll find a tattoo artist who's heavy-handed, and then you really feel the difference. Oh yeah, I'm gonna assume that your first butt tattoo was done heavy-handed and then your next sessions were lighter-handed, and so that's why you were like, oh, I can do five hours of this, even though the first session was so painful, yeah, and because you're so young, like your skin regenerates, your body regenerates really fast, yeah, so you're probably very like healthy, you probably sleep and like don't drink too much, and so, like, you'll have good tolerance, like you can do your ditches don't, don't even worry about it.

Ali:

I know I will get them done. It's just about like I'm gonna do the elbows first, um. But yeah, my husband is. We're completely opposite in terms of tattooing styles. I'm like all black work, all black and gray, and he is color like in your face, new trad, and so it's really interesting. But yeah, he's also a pastoral lineal Jew. He was also raised in reform Judaism and so, yeah, we've been together for a very long time. We got married last year.

Micah Riot:

And so how did his family, how is his family with all of? Do they think you influenced him?

Ali:

Absolutely.

Micah Riot:

Yeah.

Ali:

If they listen to this they will say no, no, we knew he wanted to do it, but I think they didn't actually think he'd go through with it. But I think, like I kind of kind of like normalized it a little bit and then when he started getting it done at first, his dad was like thank you for letting me know when you get a tattoo done. I hate it, but thank you. That was kind of like thank you for notifying me, so I don't pass out.

Micah Riot:

Like preparing him.

Ali:

But at this point, like my husband is absolutely covered, and so his, his dad's pretty much used to it and just doesn't comment on it. His sister is also also has tattoos, not quite as heavily, but I think their their dad is a very lovely, understanding person, and so I think he has like come around to the idea he will never get tattoos himself, though yeah, that generation probably won't Nice.

Micah Riot:

So tell me about this, your project. So you started this page. Jews with Tattoos on Instagram how many? How long ago? It seems like maybe not that long.

Ali:

Not that long September of 2023. Not that long.

Micah Riot:

Not that long September of 2023.

Ali:

Okay. So what prompted it is actually something that it seems unrelated. My cousin died and I was really struggling with that. My mental health was really, really bad and I post on my main platform that Jewish Feminist a lot my face and a lot of like me talking up a camera videos and I had zero emotional energy for that. But I also could not sit and do nothing and like wallow, and so I just thought about, like what have I been wanting to do? What brings me joy? And I immediately came to like I've been wanting to build community around Jewish people with tattoos. I love tattooing. Tattooing makes me happy, so let's do this thing that makes me happy. I thought like two people would care. I really thought it was just going to be a platform for me to post like me getting tattooed, and then, like maybe two people would be like this is cool, allie, um. But I made it and like right away, like 150 people followed and I was like what is going on? Um, and so I figured, okay, more people are interested in this, more people want to build community. Let me sorry, my dogs are barking, that's okay. Okay, I think they're done. Um, I was like more people are interested, let me, um, make a form where people can submit their tattoo story, um, because I want to share mine, like, let me give a form for people to share theirs. And so then they, the people, started sharing and that was really beautiful to see.

Ali:

And then I started getting followed by Jewish tattoo artists and I I'm like I'm ashamed to say it never occurred to me that there was like a huge Jewish tattoo artist community. I figured there there are Jewish tattoo artists, but I didn't think that this was like a large community of people. But once I started getting followed, and then I was following back and then I was like discovering new people. I was like this is a big community that I didn't know existed. And right away I started to think about ways that I could honor that, because in some ways like yes, I'm someone who gets tattoos. Ways that I could honor that because in some ways, like yes, I'm someone who gets tattoos, um, and I understand tattooing, I'm also not an artist and this is not my livelihood. And so I wanted to think of ways to kind of honor you guys and to honor your work. And so I started following every, every Jewish tattoo artist and just starting to share their work.

Ali:

Um, and I found that people were like, oh my God, I didn't know there was a Jewish tattoo artist in my city. I didn't know like anyone was doing Jewish tattoos. This is crazy. And as the platform like grew and grew, I started getting a lot of DMs asking for tattoo artist recommendations and I couldn't like readily pull people out of the top of my head. And so I was like, but I have enough people asking me for this that there needs to be a resource. And so that's how the tattoo artist database was born, and through that I realized the community is even larger than I thought it was when I really like sat down and like started like mapping out like who it was, where.

Ali:

Um, it went from me thinking like there were maybe 50 people plus folks in Israel, like 50 diaspora artists, to there being 200 diaspora artists.

Ali:

Um, and I really it was really beautiful to like follow these people and like learn about their work, and so now this has just become like a really great project where people can share their tattoo stories, they can be connected with jewish artists so that they can find affinity there and maybe get jewish tattoos from someone that they feel understands them a little bit more in the cultural significance or understands the context of diaspora, antisemitism, or someone who's even just like had experience tattooing Hebrew calligraphy.

Ali:

People are able to be connected in that way and I think it's really beautiful and I really want the community to expand even more than it has and reach more people, and I want to find more Jewish tattoo artists. I am constantly like looking through hashtags to try to find new people, but to a certain extent, I rely on word of mouth to get out this, the account, and to get out the fact that there is a database that people can be added to. I've recently expanded onto Reddit and created a subreddit for folks to share stories, ask for advice a little bit more like a one-on-one context, and so I'm always looking for ways to expand the project.

Micah Riot:

That's so beautiful. First of all, I'm sorry about the loss of your cousin. Thank you, and it's such a beautiful thing for you to, you know, go and make something like kind of in our honor, in the, in their honor. That, you know, is now serving community and you're creating community, connecting people through it. Like it's kind of one of my great excitements and passions in life is to like, yeah, create community and like connect people with people. Like if I wasn't tattooing, I'd probably be a matchmaker because I just love like the idea of connecting people. You know, I'd be like a village, yenta, I'd move to a small village and be like their non-binary witch, like matchmaker you gotta watch Jewish match, have you?

Ali:

have you watched Jewish?

Micah Riot:

oh, my god, it's so good. It's so good. I was so happy that it was so good because of expecting the matchmaker not to be that great, but she was fucking awesome oh yeah, I loved her, I loved her yeah I would.

Micah Riot:

Um, she was like I was like you're a celebrity to me now, like just please make more. You know more of the show. I love that. She was like, oh, young woman, you want a guy with nice eyebrows, okay, but then she actually didn't get her. The guys with nice eyebrows, it was like no matter how ridiculous the request, like the one guy who was like I want a blonde, blue eyed Jewish woman who speaks Hebrew. She was like well, that's nearly impossible. But then she didn't. Like she went and found him. I think a couple of women who fit that description, it's ridiculous.

Micah Riot:

Bet him like I think, a couple women who fit that description. Yeah, ridiculous, bet I got it. Yeah, she's like. She's like, yeah, that's that's the challenge, but I'm up for the challenge. Like she was awesome. Yeah, loved her. I was gonna say do you know um? Do you know the guy behind hebrew tattoos?

Ali:

uh, gabriel I don't know him personally, but I definitely follow his work and like see everything that he's doing there, which which is really really beautiful.

Micah Riot:

So he doesn't tattoo, he only he's not a tattoo artist. He I actually chatted with him one time. So what he does and his team does is he creates the image and then he suggests a tattoo artist to a person in their area who will, who he knows can do that kind of work. Yeah, and so he has a database of I'm assuming, mostly jewish, but at least people who, come, you know, competent at doing that type of detailed calligraphy work. Yeah, so he creates the image, we tattoo it.

Micah Riot:

And so after like the third time, somebody approached me with a piece of art from him. Um, I was like, let me connect with this guy. Like I just find it a little odd to be like sent clientele this way. Also, I didn't ask for it, also I don't necessarily wanna do this kind of work, but like I will if people ask. But also I wanna be super careful about what I take on.

Micah Riot:

It's like tattooing someone else's art is not my favorite, like it's fine, but I'd rather do my own art, right, so, anyway, so I wanted to connect with him. So we chatted and he was like, yeah, I used to train. I took trainers as a tattoo artist a long time ago. Wasn't very good at it. So he dropped that part and now I just do designing and I was like, okay, interesting story, I totally want to get him on the pod and like chat with him more about it. Yeah, but the point for you is that he probably whoever he has like people working for him, so I would email I have his email address, if you don't and just ask for their database. Oh yeah, I think you'll probably find some new people there.

Ali:

Yeah, for sure, I usually go through and see who he has tagged or like in his post.

Micah Riot:

But like a whole database that I can kind of like with mine would be great yeah, it's an assumption, but I'm, as you know, I like I assume it's a good assumption to make about you know, the way that he um points people to other artists and in different cities. Yeah, um, but yeah. So how fast have you seen that was? Is the growth happening in spurts or consistently?

Ali:

It's spurts, but when it's really there it's really growing, and it's a little shocking in the moment, but in a good way. When I launched the database, I grew close to 700 people in two days. So it's things like that like close to 700 people in like two days. So it's things like that, like the growth of the database. Launching the subreddit, like things like that, will usually draw, draw growth. But I yeah, I think like back in probably like December of last year, I think I had like 300 followers and then now I think I'm close to 3000.

Micah Riot:

So awesome.

Ali:

Yeah, it's been really, really great to see it grow. I just want, like, more people to know that it exists. I'm sure there are people that could benefit from the resources and just don't know that they're out there.

Micah Riot:

For sure. Have you had any like backlash, undeserved backlash, just for it having the name Jews in the title in the last like however many nine months, however long it's been since the war in Gaza?

Ali:

It's so funny. So I have. I got really weird backlash. I didn't understand at first because it was coming from. It was coming from non-Jews on Reddit saying that the username was inappropriate and I was like, wait, I don't understand what about this username is inappropriate. And then there were other Jews also on that thread who were like what are you talking about? What is inappropriate? And they thought it was a Holocaust delusion, inappropriate, and they thought it was a holocaust delusion.

Ali:

And I was like, of course, like only like a non-jewish mind would go there and like, think, like immediately go to trauma. Um, like my mind never went there because I'm like number one, I'm jewish, so like anyone coming to the account can feel like it's a safe space for jewish people and like the content of the account has absolutely nothing to do with the holocaust. But I some backlash on that. That was really weird and surprising and I get accusations all the time of being both a Zionist and an anti Zionist, both used negatively. I really tried to make the account. I obviously like I'm a person, I'm a human with beliefs and bias, and but I recognize that there's swaths of the Jewish tattoo community that have differing beliefs beliefs and so I try to really keep my bias out of this as much as possible obviously not completely possible, but as much as I'm able to like. I've been told to remove certain Jews from my tattoo database and I have refused.

Micah Riot:

I've got Because of their stance on Israel.

Ali:

Yeah, it's been from, and it's not like one group of people doing it 's both, and I refuse to do that. I will. I will highlight art, um, and that's what I do I'm. They are Jewish. It does not remove their Jewish identity that they have other beliefs, um, and I just really stick to my guns on that. I get told that the tattoos I share are explicitly anti-Zionist or explicitly Zionist, and I actually try to not post tattoos that go in either direction really strongly, and so it surprises me when I get that criticism. It doesn't happen often, but when it happens they're really mad.

Micah Riot:

Yeah, I mean it's like you know that it's their thing and not yours, when it's from both sides equally strongly Like where you're, like I'm just trying to do a thing that has nothing to do with this thing, my personal beliefs aside, and people are like you're doing the thing from both sides, Like it's clearly not something you're doing.

Ali:

Yeah, that's what I kind of lean in on. I'm like, okay, so I'm getting strong, strong criticism that I am like giving preference to the opposite group for both sides. So I'm like, okay, I must be doing something right here, like I must be like treading like a really neutral line.

Micah Riot:

Well, have you so like, do you feel fine, like with, with your you know not. What's the question? How do I ask it? I think you know, when things started, when attacks on Gaza started and things got more and more intense, I was having conversations with different people, some of them very intense and unpleasant and, like I definitely you know, a couple, like a couple of friends, left my life because of how I was processing, like, my trauma around what happened on October 7th and then subsequent trauma that happens to the you know, the people of Gaza, and so it was really hard to like hold a.

Micah Riot:

I mean, I've never identified very strongly as Jewish, like in public, because I find it confusing to talk about it with people who are not, because, yeah, and even people who are, because they'll go oh, do you practice? You know? Which synagogue do you go to? And I'm like it's an ethnicity for me, like it's just like my blood, like it's not what I do, it's who I am, because I'm an immigrant from Russia and that's how I grew up, you know. But it's like hard to explain how Jewish I am to people, yeah, in what way I'm Jewish, and so I just don't really go there because I don't have that affinity with American Jews and I also don't want to explain it to everybody. Yeah, yeah, you know.

Micah Riot:

And so for a while there I was like I don't want, I don't, I just want to separate myself from anything like Jewish related. That's why, you know, when you first approached me, I said no, not now, cause I just was like I don't want to be in the public eye as a Jew right now, like that just feels very vulnerable and scary and I have this tiny little business that you know. If I don't have it like, what am I going to do? I have nothing else. Yeah, you know, if people boycott my business because I'm out as in public, as a Jewish person, so have you felt? I mean, it's not your livelihood, but have you felt anything like that in the last? You know however long? It's been nine months, I think.

Ali:

Being Jewish online is something I really started doing in 2020 and it has been wild and it's so vulnerable, and so I 100% understand where you come from with that, Like I, so I'm also a secular Jew.

Ali:

Like I don't identify religiously with Judaism beyond doing ritual to affirm cultural significance and I find that people misunderstand that all the time and it's something I have to explain. But then, from the non-Jewish point of view, it's so difficult to have conversations about Jewishness when you know that there are non-Jewish eyes on you, because a lot of these conversations are meant to be intra-community they're not meant for everyone to hear, and so I'm really, really careful with what I put out publicly online. I'm on TikTok as that Jewish feminist and I talk about anti-Semitism and the history of Judaism because one of my degrees is in Jewish studies and I the amount of anti-Semitism I have received online is absolutely wild and it's been. The rhetoric has been really consistent, but since October 7th, I never had comment filters on TikTok. Even when I was getting horrible stuff, it was like enough that I could manage it and like moderate it on my own. I put on comment filters for the first time at the beginning of this year.

Ali:

I put on comment filters for the first time at the beginning of this year, because I was getting like 200 comments an hour and they were like the same thing over and over and ranging from like the same thing being repeated, from far right rhetoric or like people being really obtuse and misunderstanding, like taking the meaning of my video and applying it to Israel, when my videos had literally nothing to do with Israel and I yeah, I had to put on comment filters and so and I sometimes do not feel 100% safe I was doxxed by a Nazi back in 2021. And I had to go to the police. Like it was a whole thing I had in. That same Nazi was like literally obsessed with me and was posting about me all the time, and so I felt extremely unsafe during that time. I would say like I feel right now my public presence, since my cousin passed, has been a little bit less, because I've just had to step back from putting my face on things quite as often. But even not posting my comments like at least 100 a day that I have to even not posting.

Ali:

So, yeah, it's really hard to be a Jew on the internet, um, but I found that Jews with tattoos at least for the time being, even with the criticisms I've gotten is like my safest space at the moment.

Ali:

Um, I do get the occasional message, uh, from an anti-Semite, but in general, it's just this beautiful community where Jews will put aside other differences that they have and like focus on this one thing that they love, and I think that a lot of the time in larger dialogue building that's part of what we have to do is like look at the commonalities we have and the things that we care about and then find a way to push through and have dialogue when we disagree. Through that and I find that disagreement is a really important Jewish value to me and understanding that we have diversity of opinion and that is the basis of our culture and religion we often forget that, but in those moments where we disagree, like taking a breath and saying like I need to hear this person, especially because we disagree um, yeah, it's a wild experience online it sounds wild um.

Ali:

Tiktok is not a nice place no, not at all, but it's like the one platform like before TikTok, before um Instagram had reels. It's like the one place I could like talk to people and that's what resonated with people about me. It's not me taking photos of myself, it's like me like speaking to people, and so it became my default platform.

Micah Riot:

Unfortunately, yeah, I mean, you know I had um some luck with, but almost every time I've had a video go wider than like 200 views, I get a lot of negative comments. People just want to tear down whatever it is you're saying. You know, like the last video I posted, I had tattooed a client who is half black and her skin is like visibly black. She's not light skinned, but sometimes when you take video photo of darker skin it looks lighter because of like the way that like it adjusts, you know, especially with the tattoo on the skin is bright, beautiful tattoo and I, when I tagged it on TikTok, I said you know, I've never seen like these bright colors settle on darker skin like this. And I tagged it as melanated client and people just fucking jumped down my throat like this person is not melanated. Like what the fuck are you talking about? Is is a melanated person in the room with us? Like that kind of bullshit, you know.

Micah Riot:

And I got like yeah, within an hour I got like a hundred comments, just people being like you're fucking stupid, like you don't know what melanid means, and I was like I can't prove to you that my client has melanin skin besides, like this video. But I was just like I'm not responding. I deleted the video and like deleted TikTok. I need a break. People are so mean.

Ali:

When they can hide their face.

Micah Riot:

Yeah.

Ali:

I've learned that people will say anything behind an anonymous profile, like to the point where it's like shocking to me, like I could never imagine speaking to people the way people speak to me online and so totally empathize with that yeah, and you know whatever else I posted.

Micah Riot:

that was like you're lying, you didn't. You touched this up, it didn't heal. Like like just whatever. And uh, like, why would I lie? Like I'm not a 12 year old trying to get cloud on the internet, like I'm not using it? You know, trying to get cloud on the internet Like I'm not using it? No, I don't know Like lying about your work, it's just yeah. I was like this place is very weird.

Ali:

Yeah.

Micah Riot:

Yeah, so, um, and sounds like you know you're talking about some serious, important issues and I, you know, sounds like you get a lot of backlash, but also, I'm assuming, a lot of support as well. Yes, which is great, which is like, really the point. Yeah, for sure, it's beautiful. What's what? Do you see yourself as, like an influencer? What do you? How do you think of yourself as a person taking up space and saying things that need to be said online?

Ali:

think of yourself as a person taking up space and saying things that need to be said online. It's so like I hate calling myself an influencer, but that's what most people would call me.

Micah Riot:

It's a tired word. It's a tired word, but it's okay, we can own it.

Ali:

Because I feel like it imbues a certain amount of like. I think I'm like above other people and I I am not like I am just like a regular Joe, like who just has ideas and is good at talking about them. That's like really all it is. I think we all have ideas and like I really try to empower a lot of people to like put their voice online also as much as they feel comfortable, because I think like we all have something to say. I usually, when pressed, will tell people I'm an influencer, but I usually say like I create content online.

Micah Riot:

I'm an online activist. Um, that's a better, probably better way to put it.

Ali:

yeah, yeah, like people, I, I actually it was crazy. I went to um a reunion for an internship that I did. It was a and it was a Jewish feminist internship and someone recognized me and I have really intense social anxiety, and so this person was like I know you and I was like but but, but but I like did not know how to speak to this person. Um, and I was, I had such nervousnessness and it's like people think if you're confident talking to your phone screen, that you're really confident in person, and I have a lot of social anxiety. So that was like that was a wild experience. But yeah, I mean like there's a lot of parasocial relationships out there that I have to contend with.

Ali:

When I was smaller, online, I created like a Facebook group for just some people who were interested in talking to me one on one. That had to be done away with. I was getting a lot of invitations to meet up with people that I did not know and I, just because they feel like they know me even if it has like the best of intentions like they feel like they know me, I don't know them, but now that I'm larger, I just like have to have. I'm by large, I have 30,000 followers on TikTok. I have to like keep pretty good. I I try. I have to like keep a little bit of a level of like. We have to have a separation because there is a power dynamic there. And, yeah, I just see myself as someone who like speaks to truth as much as possible and really tries to advocate for my community and for marginalized people in general that's lovely.

Micah Riot:

I love it. This is. I mean, I love the term. Uh, you said online activist. That's the term used. Yeah, yes, because you're right. Like the word influencer, I feel like I do connect it with capitalism and with somebody who wants to get a brand deal so they can push a product and make money off of it. That's clearly not what you're doing.

Ali:

So I do appreciate the reframe of social activist or online activist for like nonprofit organizations usually, or like if a small Jewish jewelry brand reaches out to me like I do things like that but most of my stuff is like completely unpaid and just like talking in front of the camera.

Micah Riot:

Well, you've inspired me to redownload TikTok. I'll totally go look at your videos at some point soon.

Ali:

Don't have high expectations for me.

Micah Riot:

I have no expectations, I'm just curious, you know, I'm just curious, you know, I'm just curious about what you're doing.

Ali:

There is a lovely jewish activist community on uh tiktok um that I've. That like we've all kind of discovered each other. We've done like some in-person meetups. It's like there's a lot of um like really affirming rabbis, like the kind of rabbi that you wish you had as a kid. Um, and one in particular just so I could shout them out is rabbi noyo um, who I'm friends with in real life and is just like a fantastic person and they really like they're inspirational, love them cool.

Micah Riot:

I love that. Yeah, I have a rabbi client here in the Bay, Rabbi Buttsheer, and she's wonderful and yes, I'm like where were these people when I was in Jewish school, like my entire childhood, and dealing with like super homophobic, transphobic male rabbis?

Ali:

Oh yeah.

Micah Riot:

Yeah, we should have got rabbi shout out out. Well, thank you for coming on the podcast. Um, we're about an hour in, so sounds like a good. Seems like a good place to end. Um, I will put links up to all of your. You know different people you've mentioned and like your project on instagram and hopefully you get some more followers from this as well and like more community built from this. Um, yeah, do you have anything else you want to say before I end the recording?

Ali:

no, I think we pretty much covered everything. Thank you so so much for having me. Um, yeah, this is really wonderful to chat like this nice.

Micah Riot:

Oh, I do have one last question what's a small thing that's been making you happy lately?

Ali:

oh, that's a great. That's a great question. Oh my God, I'm like. I'm the kind of person. I'm like I should have thought about this before, Um.

Micah Riot:

I mean, that's the point, though you know it's something small, like something kind of insignificant. You know, like I'm, like I have I have morning breakfast and it's like the best thing I'm like this bagel with butter makes me happy every morning.

Ali:

Like that type of thing that makes the um the movie long legs and like, okay, around it I'm like I love horror and I just saw it last week and then, like I'm just talking about it with a lot of people, I just love horror. That like makes you think and so, yeah, I'll settle on the movie long legs okay, I'm not a big horror person.

Micah Riot:

I I get scared easily. But if you are a horror person, listener, long Legs. And then you could, you know, hit up Jews with Tattoos on Instagram and tell Allie what you think I don't know, maybe. Yes, do it, sweet you.

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Micah Riot

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