Countess V. Winfrey & Shon Curtis LIVE!

Rodney is joined by returning guests Countess V. Winfrey and Shon Curtis to discuss the concept of Afrofuturism in front of a live audience at the Dana L. Wiley GALLERY in The Dayton Arcade.

Learn more about the Dana L. Wiley gallery on their website:
https://danalwileygallery.com/

Transcript

Producer Mike: [00:00:00] Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us here in the Dana Wiley Gallery for the first ever Rodney Beals inspired by live podcast recording. Give yourselves a round of applause for coming out here tonight. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much to Gathered by Ghostlight and the Dana Wiley Gallery for having us here. just a couple of quick announcements before we get started everybody. So I'm going to turn things over to Curtis Bowman who has a few, a couple quick announcements for us. Hello 

Curtis Bowman: everybody. I am Curtis Bowman.

Thank you for joining us in the Dana L. Wiley Gallery featuring Mike Elsaw. You can see the beautiful work on the wall there. For this exciting live podcast of Rodney Veal's Inspired By, I am the Director of Engagement for Culture Works and a member of the EPIC Committee. We named our committee from our [00:01:00] agreed on goals to educate, promote, inspire, and connect.

For So we are EPIC, a community of arts lovers doing what arts lovers do, putting together performances and collaborative experiences. This event is the first of what I will hope will be many events that the committee will bring to you through the Dana L. Wiley Gallery featuring Mike Elsop. The committee would like to thank Dana L.

Wiley for launching us and for hosting us in the gallery. We're extremely grateful to ThinkTV for making this broadcast possible, and to Rodney Veal for his tireless commitment to the arts in our community. It is the intention of this series to explore thought provoking subjects through the viewpoint of fascinating and captivating individuals.

Tonight's podcast features three such people. Countess Winfrey, Is an IN is a choreographer and a dancer with the Dayton Contemporary Dance Company, and I have seen her dance. It is mesmerizing. Sean Curtis is a photographer and creative artist, and I have seen his photographs and I wish I looked that good.

[00:02:00] And Rodney Veal is one of my absolute most favorite people. An independent choreographer, a visual artist, a documentarian, and the host. Of this podcast. If you would please make sure that these little infernal devices in your pocket are actually turned off or silenced, and they will not vibrate in any way, shape, or form, and give, give our artists your best attention.

CultureWorks welcomes you. The Dana O'Reilly gallery welcomes you and the EPIC committee welcomes you. Thank you so much.

Rodney Veal: Hi, this is Rodney Veal, the host of Rodney Veal's Inspired By, and we are coming to you live. The first time ever at the Dana L. Wiley Gallery in the Arcade. we are super excited today to have an audience. Audience, acknowledge yourselves. Yes. Super cool. Cool thing to have. And I [00:03:00] have two people on the panel to talk about Afrofuturism and creativity and inspiration.

And I'm super excited because I know these two, we go back in many ways. First off is Countess Winfrey, who is a choreographer, visionary choreographer and artist, and a fabulous dancer with Dade Contemporary Dance Company. Sean Curtis is a multi hyphenate man, and you'll get to know that in this conversation, but his photography is so outstanding and stellar.

This man captures You in such a beautiful way and I have two portraits that he's done of me and I'm I treasure those That so it's and we've always had these really great conversations But what's really great is that the three of us wrote articles about afrofuturism in the day daily news Nick Harkins Who is in the audience who's the spearhead of that for the day 90 news?

And so we're gonna use Those articles as a basis and [00:04:00] foundation for the conversation. So, Sean, Curtis, we go way back. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. So, let's just dive in. for those who do not understand and know, give a definition in your words as to what Afrofuturism is. 

Shon Curtis: Oh, we're throwing this to you?

Someone. Someone. Kick it off, alright. for me, Afrofuturism is a daily practice, a daily understanding of my contribution to those that are coming after me, but also honoring those who are before me. I'm doing it through my arts, through my words, through living, it's definitely a living art for me, to be a practitioner of Afrofuturism.

so it is, it's a difficult thing to define. It's a movement. It's more than black art. it is life. Write that down. 

Rodney Veal: He [00:05:00] drops the mic every time. It's just, it's always, it's Sean's way. 

Countess Winfrey: I really love that definition. I think that I agree that Afrofuturism feels like this huge umbrella and there's so many things that fall under that umbrella.

I think for me when I think about Afrofuturism and the way that it shows up in my work and my creativity is it pushes me to think about imagining something that I've never seen before. And that imagining is informed by My present day experience as an African American woman, and the experiences of the people in my lineage, my ancestors.

And so I think that, kind of multifaceted, it kind of, incorporates Incorporates, several generations, present day, past, and future, all within Afrofuturism. And so I think that it's really wonderful to be able to witness other artists, embody this concept. And everybody's interpretation of it is different.

But I think that that's the really beautiful thing about it is because there's [00:06:00] no definite, There's no definite definition. There's, it's all about creativity in the way that, like, you personally imagine it, and then the way that we get to experience it. So that's the way that I kind of see Afrofuturism.

Such a 

Shon Curtis: better definition. I love that definition. 

Rodney Veal: This is why I love our conversations, because I love the way you spoke about the fact that it's individual. And that's one of the things that is really countering this notion of a monolithic culture. behavior or artistic practices of a group, of a group of people.

and so we have a lot of shades, so to speak, as black folks. and I think that that is reflected in how we approach art and art making. Yeah. And that's what I love about the fact that as someone who is fast approaching elder status, which is where my focus in the article came from, it's refreshing to see that [00:07:00] This younger generation of artists is really being bold and adventurous and taking steps outside the realm.

So, let's talk about that. So, in Countess's article, Countess, you had talked about, This really great experience that you had and I was, I had a small part to play in it. And it was at the Cincinnati, at the Cincinnati Art Museum. Talk about this experience because I, explain to them what it was. And it involved dance and art.

Countess Winfrey: Yes. So, I was commissioned to create a work, a site specific work at the Cincinnati Art Museum in 2022. And the purpose of this, commission was to bring dance to one of the oldest museums in the nation. and they were highlighting two specific, black artists at that time in the museum. And, I didn't know this until I dove a little bit more into the project, but, it is not as common for black photographers, black, [00:08:00] artists to show up in those types of museums.

Maybe in a gallery of some sort, but I didn't realize that it took as long for black art to show up in a museum space like the Cincinnati Art Museum. And so they were really honoring black voices during that particular year. and the two artists that they were highlighting were David Driscoll, a visual artist, and and the Kamoinge Workshop, which is a group of black photographers that were based in New York.

And so they wanted a site specific work that really, highlighted those artists, but brought dance into the space. And so when I first saw pictures of the museum as I was writing my proposal, I was like, well, how am I gonna Put all of what I want to put into one space. but they told me that I could use whatever I wanted to use.

And so I ended up creating a work called Homage. What was, is, to come. And it celebrated the idea of, talking about or kind of walking through the past [00:09:00] as an African American experience, the present, and also an imagination of what the future is or what the future would be. And so we started in one place of the museum.

There was a, the past was kind of based in the front. part of the museum where there were like, beautiful big columns, concrete, very non colorful, but meant to represent the past. and then once the dancers, finished that specific exhibition, then the audience would move to a different space, and that space was the present.

And in that present space, we talked about, or they danced about, and we talked about, issues that we are facing today in the African American community. And then, the audience moved into what I called the future space. And this future space was this kind of like grand, staircase, arena inside of the Cincinnati Art Museum.

And it was meant to represent the idea of like what our black futures could look like, or my imagination of what our black futures could look like. [00:10:00] I had a wonderful, griot that took us as a narrator from one place to the next. and I, I probably could have done it a thousand different ways, but I thought it was important to really honor the past and the present before we could even talk about how we would want to proceed into the future.

And so, there was a book that I, an anthology that I got in order to kind of help me create this work and it was called Black Futures. It's an anthology that was created during the pandemic, actually, but there was a huge picture in it that said, there are black folks in the future, and that particular picture, really, really stuck out to me, and as I was creating this collaboratively with, the Griot, who is a singer, artist, wonderful woman who works in the community very often.

I was talking about like, how do we create, how do we imagine what the future looks like? And it was one of my first times really thinking about [00:11:00] imagining a future, imagining, what our black experience could be like in the future. And a lot of times because I'm in a, the arena that I'm in, we talk a lot about, like, present day or past experiences, in, in the dance world.

And so, I really wanted to think about how we could imagine, or how I could imagine, or push myself to imagine, what the future of our culture could look like. And it was kind of like, Scary, because there's no blueprint, you know, you just got to kind of create as you go but also it was exciting and I feel like it kind of sparked my interest in imagining more like not just older school stories and then bringing those to life on stage, but then how do you create a whole new world?

And as I dove more into it, I was like, oh, people have been doing this for a long time. but it was cool to kind of have my first opportunity [00:12:00] to, think and create in that way. 

Rodney Veal: It was. And the small part that I played was just being on the board of Ohio Dance and we were kind of like the people behind the scenes kind of helping the museum make it happen.

And so getting to witness that process for Countess was, was magical. It was, I, there is a record of it. I think we did record it for ThinkTV, so if you get a chance, go to our website, look at the segments that are on you, it'll give you just a taste of just how imaginative her work is. And, and so it's really cool.

So Sean. Shauna, and this is interesting because Sean Countess, Sean Countess, myself and two other people. Ben Ben Bauman and Tr Thomas Trout. Thomas. Thomas. Thomas Thomas. When you get this age as an elder, you forget names. We were together. We came together for a panel discussion about two years ago. When I was going back through my notes, I realized there was a photograph of all of [00:13:00] us and that Sean took, yeah, and that's where this like.

I fell in love. I fell in love with Sean. Sean's work as a photographer, and this is, there's a question in there, I promise you. Is he, his ability to capture the spirit of a person that he's taking a photograph of, it's real, it's vibrant, there's an authenticity that is unmistakable, undeniable. He has this way of pulling things out of you as a subject.

In his work, and it's just thrilling. So hopefully you can see his work on the walls here soon. But Sean, talk to me about the journey to that process of being a photographer, because this wasn't in the on the bingo card of life. 

Shon Curtis: Yeah, no, not nowhere near close. I became a photographer out of necessity.

I was a musician. [00:14:00] I went to Stuyvesant School for the Arts. For those of you who are familiar, it's a wonderful magnet school here in Dayton, Ohio. and I did music. I was a musician. I was a tenor saxophonist, jazz musician. I wanted to be John Coltrane. I was not going to take no for an answer. I would spend, like, my weekends playing Jazz Central.

I didn't have a drinking problem, fortunately, so I didn't run into that problem. but I loved music. I loved having, access to an instrument at a young age, and it kind of got me through a lot. So, I got to Stivers. they, they found a notebook. I don't know what I was thinking. I left a notebook in one of my classrooms and it had a lot of writing and had a lot of poetry in it.

And that's when they discovered I was a writer. And this was like my junior year. So they were very upset with me that I had spent all this time in music and no time in writing at all. so they then almost pushed me into being a double magnet of [00:15:00] creative writing. So then I started doing a lot of spoken word shows, touring a little bit, got to go to Louder Than a Bomb, which is this show that kind of gets you to Brave New Voices, which is the younger version of Deaf Poetry Jam, right?

Yeah, Deaf Poetry Jam, which was, you know, what it was for HBO, I love that. I always wanted to be on that show, never got to be on that show. But I did a lot of spoken word for a long time, and I got really burnt out. I got really tired of traveling and performing all the time. So I started a magazine. I needed a photographer.

I became the photographer I needed. And that was my long roundabout way of, getting into photography eventually. and then it was, it was, it was everything. It was everything I needed. It was everything I didn't have. but I mean, everything also ties in, right? Like, My music, my writing, all is encompassed within my visual storytelling.

Right, because I think that's [00:16:00] how I would refer to myself is just a visual storyteller. So I use the experiences and being in jazz and improvisation and reading between those lines and the exercise of using different writing styles to figure out how to graph a story. And then now I take all of that into being a photographer and telling somebody story with an image.

Eso Yeah, that was roundabout way of how I became a photographer today. 

Rodney Veal: Following up on that, what was interesting about the fact that I know these two folks is And I was thinking about this is multi hyphenate their visual storytelling, not just a photographer, not just a choreographer, not just a TV host, not just a it's always a sense of this multi hyphenate.

And I'm very curious to me, especially with artists of color is that you think that is just built into our. DNA that we must do it all. So let's talk about that. I mean, 

Shon Curtis: [00:17:00] that's a good question. That's a really good question. I feel like we are always so used to being what it is that we are needing, right?

Like we, we are always used to, coming into something out of necessity, out of, you know, this gap that needs to be filled. And a lot of times, you know, we're our own solution. And I think that that's a part of the black experience is being your own solution. so I think, I mean, that's how I found my way into each art is I needed this thing.

So let me go and do this, right? so, yes, definitely a part of this black experience. 

Countess Winfrey: Yeah, I think that, I feel like I've, I've, I've talked about this before with someone and, the conversation kind of led into this place of like artists. It feels like you, you might be an artist in a particular field, but truly you end up being an artist in your life.

Like it's really a lifestyle. The way that you cook, [00:18:00] becomes a part of your art and the way that you decorate your home, the way that you, Have your car, I mean, set up. I mean, some people like to have very artsy cars. Some people like to have very clean cars. but I think that it really is like a lifestyle.

So, it's interesting to hear you tell your story about how you went from music to writing. And even now how they all inform the work that you do. and I remember as I was working on this project at Cincinnati Art Museum, the Kamoinge workshop, photographers talked about how they would use the sounds of jazz as they walked around the city.

People along the streets of New York and I was like, Oh, I can see it. I felt like as I looked at their photographs, I could really see it. And I think for me personally, like I've always my mom was like a huge arts lover. So we were always at. jazz concerts, musicals, dance concerts, and my brother's also a musician.

So art, [00:19:00] really feels like a lifestyle for me. And I think the way that I see wanting to do things in the world, it always incorporates art in some way. Like some of my favorite hobbies incorporate art and not necessarily art that I have anything to do with. I can't like play an instrument. I wish I could, but I can't play an instrument.

I'm an okay writer, dancing, choreography are definitely my lane, but I really have a high, high appreciation for, speakers, for singers, for instrumentalists, for visual artists, and I feel like all of it, kind of lives in this realm, that I love to visit. So, yeah, that's how I 

Shon Curtis: would say. 

Rodney Veal: She's a fantastic writer.

If you haven't had a chance, go, go to the, Daily News website and check out the articles because it's, you know, that, and it goes to that point of, of that multi hyphenism because out of necessity. and that, that speaks to something that [00:20:00] it was the line that stuck in my head that when you talked about African Futurism and you said that it's kind of a metaphor of America as an old house.

So this question of us, you know, you know, as black folks and black creatives. Talk about that metaphor because I think that's important for people to understand and unpack that it's Afrofuturism is not replacing. 

Countess Winfrey: Yeah Absolutely. 

Rodney Veal: So 

Countess Winfrey: yes, I think that's thank you for saying that So I love watching house shows flipping houses All those shows I love to watch them when I can catch them And so I was as I was thinking about this particular article.

I was like, oh this Afrofuturism is kind of like You A concept that walks into this house and flips it, like all of the old ideations, all of the old paintings, all of the old wallpaper, all of the, all of the old, the things that, and, and metaphorically the things that we see. I'm sure as black artists now, but that our ancestors [00:21:00] have encountered as far as barriers and, you know, all the things, generational trauma, all the things that we have, incorporated and that we have felt, in our lives.

I think what Afrofuturism does is strips all those things away and it gives you liberation to create. Build a new home, to put up new walls, to put up new paint, to put up new paintings, to create, different, feng shui, to, recreate what was old, maybe even inside of the same structure, but make it new, and to make it, feel more liberating to be inside of, to make it feel more welcoming, more inclusive, more, It's more, the word I'm trying to think of is like, it makes you feel like, oh, this feels snug on me.

It's not, I'm not trying to put it on. It fits. Yeah. I'm not trying to put it on because somebody else said that this is the shirt I [00:22:00] should wear or this is the house I should buy and this is the way it should be decorated. No, and it's like, sometimes you can think that like, oh, I need to buy this house and this is the way it was, so I have to keep it this way, but I love that Afrofuturism allows you to say like, oh no, I can actually strip all this away and I can re put up what I want that fits my life, that fits my ideation, that fits my morals, my values.

And so, in a very long form, essentially that's, that's the way that I saw it when I first started thinking about this particular article. 

Bonni Miles: I'm Bonnie Miles, membership coordinator of CET. Thank you for listening to Rodney Veals Inspired By. This podcast is a production of CET and ThinkTV, two local PBS stations.

As PBS stations, the work we do online, on air, and in the community is supported by listeners like you. If you're enjoying the show and would like to support our work, please consider becoming a member at CETConnect. org or ThinkTV. org. Plus when you sign up to [00:23:00] donate at least 5 a month, you'll You'll get access to special members only streaming videos on the PBS app through Passport.

Learn more at CETConnect. org or ThinkTV. org. 

Producer Mike: If you're enjoying this conversation, The Art Show, also hosted by Rodney Veal, is available to stream anytime, from anywhere, on YouTube or the PBS app. 

Rodney Veal: And that struck me, because one of the things I was thinking about was, cultural redlining. Redlining exists for housing, but redlining exists in culture.

So this notion that there's only one way that art can be represented, who is the person that represents it, how is it represented becomes a real question for us as black creators. Because there's always someone else's, they may not even see the bias. It comes out in the language and their tone and how they enact and engage.

They don't realize, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's the old way of thinking. 

N/A: Yeah. 

Rodney Veal: But, and so, you're younger, [00:24:00] as I'm approaching that elder status, like I said, one year and I'll be 60. It looks good on you. I'm trying. No, I don't cry. Tell that to your skin. That's right. Shade butter is the best thing in the world.

And for the folks who are not of color, that's a real thing. one of the things that you talked about, Sean, which I thought was really great, You said that you thought you talk about Afrofuturism can be a catalyst for rebirth, which is kind of a building on what accountants say. Talk about that because it is, it could be a and there's a rebirth for city of Dayton.

Shon Curtis: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, I mean, I think we've been looking at a renaissance, you know, for a very long time, and, and living in and experiencing it all at one point, right? Like the, the idea of Afrofuturism giving you this. Liberation, this freedom to reimagine and re, you know, reclaim something, is that individual part of yourself, right?

Like it is this idea that, [00:25:00] you know, you can hold on to tradition and elevate and evolve and become something new or create something new in our, in our field. We're creating something new all the time, so it's like a, it's like a starting place for us. So we're always reimagining our work and reimagining what it looks like and what it'll be like, and how, you know, anyone gets to experience it.

I think about that, like, I like that you said, it's a lifestyle, right? Like, it fits the lifestyle. because I think, The idea of liberating ourselves and taking that responsibility that liberation actually is, because it is a, you know, freedom is a real responsibility. Like, you have to understand that you can't be callous with your freedom.

So, you know, why not re imagine what your freedom looks like, right? Like, if you're an artist, re imagine what this space looks like, you know, these four walls that we have. [00:26:00] a house is the perfect metaphor. You know, we get to flip our house every day and no one can tell us otherwise. so, you know, you take it and you be responsible for it, you know, 

Countess Winfrey: I really love that.

You said, be responsible for it. I would never thought about it from that perspective, but it is, it is a responsibility to kind of hold on to your freedom. Yeah. I like that. 

Rodney Veal: And, and so let's talk about that freedom. It's because one of the things that's really interesting about for futurism, it talks about imagining a space and so imagine a space where that freedom can exist, where that liberation can be explored.

Do you think it's easier as speaking as someone from this particular generation? Do you think that the spaces are opening up? Are there still obstacles and barriers to that liberation of freedom? Hmm. I'd be afraid. Never. [00:27:00] Never. I 

Shon Curtis: mean I think it can be both, right? I think that we can experience, you know, things changing and see that, you know, physically how it's manifesting change here in Dayton.

Like this, what is this, the kitchen incubator that's over here that's like being led by three black women, right? Like, I, I, I'm like, this is amazing that this is happening, right? Like, to understand that that's something new that is changing that we wouldn't have had before isn't to say that we don't still experience racism or we don't still experience these setbacks or these things that are going to hold us from truly liberating, right?

Like, it can be both at the same exact time. Right? Like, yeah, no, we definitely get to see change happen, but we also get to experience, you know, the, the, the bad. We get to experience these, oh, we're, I'm not even in the, the conversation for this grant. Or, you know, this gallery doesn't want to receive work from a black artist.

Well, they [00:28:00] don't want to say that. They'll say your work is too urban. There are definitely these barriers that we have to face, but, you know, a part of the exercise is, breaking through them, right? Like, rebelling. I think that's another thing that a lot of artists identify with is how much of a rebellious spirit you have to have in order to even have the audacity to create, you know?

Countess Winfrey: Yeah, I think to add to that, what you spoke about, our freedom being a responsibility. I think that, freedom is a practice and the practice starts to me as a mindset. And so when you do come up against those barriers, the practice and the mindset of feeling like, okay, well, this is a barrier now, but it's not going to be my barrier forever.

Or am I going to, how am I going to push past this barrier? Maybe this barrier is here, but it might not be here. And I think that, the, your, the mindset around freedom is truly kind of the, the root source. to [00:29:00] the practice of freedom in your, in our, in our creativity. And so I agree in the sense that, like, there are more opportunities for us to, express ourselves and express our imagination of an Afrofuturistic, and creativity.

But I do think that there's still work to be done for sure. So I'm grateful that there have been opportunities like being able to write the article and being able to do the work that I did at Systemy Art Museum and many other examples. But I do think that there's still much work to be done. Absolutely.

So 

Rodney Veal: in that process of that work, there, do you think that, you, you feel, do you feel more hopeful? Now in the place of that liberation and freedom, even though you know there are obstacles and barriers, are you more hopeful now? I mean, because some of us who are in the generation, not just my generation, the generation preceding me, Not so much.

I mean, other than, you [00:30:00] know, so how do you, how do you take on that generational perspective that's a little different? We, we sometimes have a tendency, I have a tendency to move a little cautiously sometimes, but not always, not always. 

Countess Winfrey: Yeah, I know what you're saying. my grandmother, she just passed last year, but she lived to be 102, 103.

Sorry. She just turned 103 in May and she passed in July. but she, so she was born in 1920. And my father is a baby boomer, my mother's a baby boomer, and so it's been interesting for them to tell me stories of their lives, essentially, and to even think about, like, my own life. And so I think, to your question about, like, like, generationally, do we feel more hopeful?

I think that I've been able to really see the groundwork that they did, the breadcrumbs that they put down, the roots that they left, in order to feel empowered to take a step forward. I feel like [00:31:00] I remember my grandmother talking about, Being in rooms with Martin Luther King. She lived in Memphis. My grandfather was a pastor.

And so I think hearing her like tell these stories like we just sitting up here and I'm like, wait, what? You know, but but to me like those kinds of things that she was involved in in the civil rights movement Like we're steps forward and then even the things that like my father and mother did as I was growing up We're all steps forward.

And so I think And while they had their own barriers during those times, it was very, liberating to hear their, their steps forward. So then it could help me say, okay, well, if they can do it during that time, then what steps can I do right now to push myself forward? And I think that those examples were very, important for me to see, empowering for me to see.

And also, like, to see history and my own family lineage connected. was also empowering, like to actually see the connection. [00:32:00] And some of those things I didn't really get until I moved here, until I started dancing about work that was really steeped in the African American experience. I actually learned more about my African American history through those specific examples of works that I've done and the stories that my parents and my grandparents have told.

So I think that, I think that I do feel hopeful and I think my hope also lies in hoping that my steps will create. A path for my children and their children and the other children that come, generations after me. 

Shon Curtis: for me, it's really, you know, there's, there's this obligation I have to dream. I, I have to dream.

I owe it to those, before me to continue dreaming, right? Like, I think that, you know, I think that, I like, like those, I remember, Sitting down with my grandmother and her explaining to me what her experience was growing up in Cincinnati, [00:33:00] Ohio. and then her family's experience growing up in Mississippi.

and how different they were, but then also understanding that she was telling me my experience is not going to be the same. I'm going to have an experience, right? I'm going to be able to tell a story, but it's not going to be the same. This journey is going to look different for me, but understand that we're all on the same journey.

Right? We're all still walking this, this line here. so I have an obligation to, contribute something to their legacy and to leave something for my legacy so that those that's coming next have a story that they can look back on and be like, okay, I learned something from here. I know where I'm, I know where I was, right?

I know where we were. I know where I'm coming from. And it's interesting because I have these conversations with my mother and, you know, she doesn't have much want at the moment to learn about her past, which is fine. I get that. I think that [00:34:00] I'm fortunate to be in this very curious, generation, right?

Like we were very curious about where we are, where we're from. and then also where this, this tech age where we can, you know, find these things out, right? Like, we can figure out, you know, what, what tribe, was here, and here's this bloodline, and here's the tracing of, you know, like, I found out I was Monsa.

And, I had to talk to Mama Nazipo, if anyone's familiar, to, explain to me how to even say Monsa. Right? The clickin wasn't clickin for a while until I talked to her. 

Rodney Veal: In the South African dialect. Yeah. It's very, very, yeah. Yeah. 

Shon Curtis: So, yeah, I try to live in that obligation, right? I try to continue to create work with that obligation in mind of, okay, I owe something to those that did this for me, that laid this groundwork.

I'm going to always end with I'm gonna let you know. It's like my telltale sign, nothing's coming out [00:35:00] of 

Rodney Veal: it. I love it. I 

Shon Curtis: love it. 

Rodney Veal: I mean, I love this phrase, obligation. Do you think as black creatives that we carry an undue baggage in that sort of obligation? Because I see sometimes as a tendency, and I know it's a critical statement about a lot of art out there, that it doesn't really go beyond the surface.

and I have noticed, and I'm not saying this as a blanket condemnation, I, I feel as though the art that is being reflected by the two of you and others, I think about, Kevin Harris, I think about, Bing Davis, who's the OG of, of caring through an experience. There's there. It's always that obligation that it's it's it's just baked into our DNA that the source material is is Africa It's right.

It's [00:36:00] Even though there is a denial of that. Yeah, so do you think that? Associated with technology because afrofuturism implies technology as a part of this Do you think because you guys are in a generation that it's technology or technology native the unique technologies making the afrofuturist stance?

Much easier to kind of Go forward as a pathway or is it a hindrance? 

Shon Curtis: I mean, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say that it's definitely, allowing us to express and experience more. Right? Like, I definitely don't, I don't want to think of it as a hindrance. I mean, I think, I think that, well, I'm not, you know what, let me not say that because I was going to say what I always hear, my elders saying about kids and technology and how they always on their phones and I'm like, no, that's not the route I want to take that.

I think that tech, the access to technology gives us a stepping point to continue that reimagined that we keep talking about, right? [00:37:00] Like, we have access to these tools that give us. a library right in our hands right here, right now. I don't have to go downtown, even though we do have wonderful libraries here.

They know how I want to go ahead, get him a great shot out in case there's any representatives here. I didn't want to

but, yeah, we have access to this wealth of knowledge right here in front of us. So that in itself speaks to our ability to continue afrofuturism. I think about, I think about, so, I think about this, this letter, that Toni Morrison wrote. Not even a letter, she wrote the eulogy for James Baldwin.

and James Baldwin is a huge influence for me. I'm around, I'ma, I'ma figure out where I'm going with this in a sec. he is, she talks about this kindling, this flame on this candle that flickers, and that flame is James Baldwin. that's my root. Had I not had [00:38:00] access to reading that eulogy and understanding the magnitude of how one writer decided to recognize another writer in passing, I wouldn't understand that kindling is the kindling that's in me to create art.

I wouldn't be able to find that because I wasn't in, and it's in the New York Times. If anyone has a moment, find it. It's the New York Times eulogy, that Toni Morrison wrote for James Baldwin. It is beautifully written. I could only imagine. having someone write anything about me when I leave, right?

But that's the journey. We're trying to leave this footprint so that somebody could possibly write something about us when we leave. but no, without technology, I wouldn't be able to get to that. I wouldn't be able to find that. I don't know Toni Morrison. Yeah. I wish she did. Yeah. 

Countess Winfrey: Yeah, I definitely think that technology kind of like opens this portal of, possibilities.

to us as black creators right now in today's generation. I personally, don't have as much of a relationship with incorporating [00:39:00] technology into my work, but I do think it is something that I would be interested in, and I have loved When people have done it, when people have incorporated technology into their work and it has created this imaginary world in this way, I think that it's, it feels very fascinating to me, but I feel like I have no, not yet anyway, I don't have any relationship to, creating from a technological space, but I really do appreciate it and I do appreciate what you said about it, so thank you.

giving us opportunities to grow and expand, our curiosity. I, I really agree with that. Like, I, I do feel like our generation is very curious, and like, we're kind of like in between, like, we're not like super, I mean, cause we, we grew up and then we had phones, we didn't always have phones, you know? So, but we are kind of, we understand them enough, you know?

And so I think it's actually a nice balance. Because, it allows us to be curious, but also be able to read a New York [00:40:00] Times article. even in print, not on our phones. You know, I think that there's like, we can access both. And so I think that that kind of duality, allows us to have a proximity to our art in a particular way.

So kind of leaning back to what you said about, substance, like the multiple layers. I think that. that plays a part in it, I think. 

Rodney Veal: Oh, yeah. And as someone who dabbles, you know, I know, yeah, you really know it. Yeah, you've got it. It's a part of my multidisciplinary practice. And I know that entering into that world as an African American, it is kind of fraught.

Because it's this, this is unexpected. One of the things that's really interesting is when people, Try to explain to me how the technology works is if I've never touched a device. and that was in grad school. I was like, okay, I mean, so not aware that maybe I don't not have the language of it. I may not possess it.

And I think [00:41:00] that's That's another part of the stripping away of the house is that sometimes there's language that is used and engaged in a way that the person doesn't really understand that is, can come off as a barrier to being engaged in the conversation, to be a part of the process of moving things forward because they don't recognize that, yes, there's more because the surface, when we start, we talk about race, it starts, it starts and stops on the surface, And so that's why having this conversation with you is so important because it goes deeper than the surface.

So with that in mind, because I, this is the kind of conversations we have all the time. So when we're get together, we're drinking coffee, and we're having a good time, we're talking about all these things, and we go off into our worlds, and we make and create, and we come back together. I'm kind of curious where you guys are at with art today.

Like, what are you doing right now? Because I think that that's important because this is about the future. So, [00:42:00] 

Shon Curtis: yeah. 

Rodney Veal: What's going on with you guys? 

Shon Curtis: so, right now, I've been, I've been kind of, I've been kind of working this idea about working with food. Working with, black chefs specifically. there was this, there was this documentary, or docu series, I'm sorry, on Netflix called High on the Hog.

right. Yeah, it's amazing. Amazing. amazing production. they found a group, I think in D. C. that works exclusively with heirloom, produce. so in the, in essence of understanding the context is in the ships on the way to America. Our ancestors had rice and beans and other native foods braided in through their hair so that when they got here, they would be able to plant and have native food when they got here because they didn't know where they were going.

this [00:43:00] group, looks for various heirloom produce and cooks and has a brunch club with, that's purely eating this, these heirloom items. so I took this concept I had about working with chefs and, documenting a day in the kitchen for, for a chef, to looking at black chefs and them contributing one recipe to a cookbook.

And doing it in a photo essay form of heirloom recipes and creating a cookbook that is an heirloom, that I hope to be able to leave to everyone who wants it. Right? Like it's this idea of leaving traces of who we are. In my industry, as a photographer, that's, that's what I want to contribute. so that is my current practice of Afrofuturism.

It's trying to get this book together and out and published and whatever has to happen. I don't know. I never made a book before. [00:44:00] That's cool. Thank you. 

Rodney Veal: We'll talk. We'll talk. We'll talk. That's what we do. We talk. That's cool. I love that. Yeah. 

Countess Winfrey: I think I'm in a space, like a, kind of like solo incubator space.

I feel like over the past couple of years I've done a lot, like it's just been a lot of, which have been so wonderful. I've gotten to do a project in the, rotunda here, last summer, which was, basically a collaboration of different artists, of all genres coming together and just creating live art, and it was a really great experience.

I've gotten to create some works recently, and I feel like I haven't had enough time to, like, come down from those experiences, because I've kind of jumped from one to the next to the next. So in this current moment, I think I'm just kind of moving on. Wanting to understand, like, kind of who I want to be in the art world.

and, it's been really wonderful to kind of spread my wings and try new things. And I [00:45:00] think now I'm in a space of trying to, like, hone in and sharpen and refresh. yeah. So, I am going to be choreographing a play soon. I'm very excited about that. I'm very, very excited about that. Just stepping into 

Rodney Veal: a new world.

Yeah, stepping 

Countess Winfrey: into a new world. Yeah. That's what we do. It's going to be a cool experience. so I'm looking forward to doing that. And honestly, kind of looking forward to taking the summer to kind of, you know, Be down, refresh, kind of build my business a little bit more so that when I am taking on a new project, I have a little bit more clarity.

trying to think about if I'm going to go to get my masters, haven't quite decided yet. We are definitely going to have a conversation about that one. Oh my gosh. Yeah, thinking about that, so. 

Rodney Veal: The Ohio State University, I'm just saying. 

Countess Winfrey: Man, I, yeah. I'm trying to get it while I'm still dancing. I don't know.

It's, it's kind of a weird thing to find, but that's kind of where I am right now. And so 

Rodney Veal: it's a good place to be. So this thing, I want to say thank you [00:46:00] for your friendship because this is, this is what rejuvenates me. Is this like the fact that I get to hang out with these young people who are so creative and have these big ideas and they're pursuing them and they are pursuing them here in Dayton, Ohio.

They could choose to be anywhere else. They could be anywhere else because they're that talented and so, but they're here. And I want to say thank you for taking out the evening. This has been a pleasure and a joy, always. Thank you as an audience for the first time for us having a conversation in public for the podcast.

I am a grateful man. I live a very rich life. And this is, this is the richness I get. So, I want to share it. So, That's our podcast. Thank you, 

N/A: Wiley.[00:47:00] 

Rodney Veal: Thank you to Dana Wiley. to Epic. to Curtis. Curtis. Dayton, Ohio, for being the coolest place on the planet. And that's what you need to start saying. You are the coolest place on the planet. Knock that chip off your shoulder, boos. Knock it off your shoulders. Alright.