Multi-Platform Storyteller Mathew Klickstein

In this episode, Rodney sits down with multi-platform storyteller Mathew Klickstein to talk about his early passion for storytelling, his journey through the creative industry and the importance of resiliency.

Show Notes: https://www.mathewklickstein.com/

Explore Other Stories with The Art Show on the PBS App or at https://video.thinktv.org 

Transcript

Mathew  0:00  
The comic book stores had places you could sit and you could hang out there. And even though I wasn't that into comic books as a kid, you know, back, even when I had to walk there, ride my bike there, because I didn't have a car yet, I was 1011, 12 years old, that's where I'd go to kind of hang out with, quote, unquote, my people. I would hang out with the people who, yeah, maybe they'd be talking about sports, yeah, maybe they'd be talking about going on dates and some of these other things that were a little bit out of my Ken. But for the most part, it was people talking about not just comic books, but movies, animation and anime and, and even sometimes music and punk rock, maybe, and and all these different things. You saw posters on the wall that were all very different. And, yeah, there was definitely at a point like hip hop and and it was they weren't just comic book stories. They were geek hubs.

Rodney  0:55  
Hi, my name is Rodney veal, and I'm the host of Rodney veal is inspired by podcast, and for this episode, I have someone who rivals me as a multi hyphenate. And I just think that that is absolutely amazing. He is an author, a writer, a producer, uh, creator of content from all media. I mean, it is massive, massive, massive list, and we're going to get into all those things. But Mathew is also an incredibly community minded, energized, Energizer Bunny, always looking for a way to just to do more and be more and want more from a community, but also art and everything. He's a pop culture genius, as Mark mother spa spoke about, which I thought was great, because I was just looking at his book of art in my bedroom yesterday. I was like, what? This is too crazy. So Mathew, with all that said and done, welcome to the podcast.

Mathew  1:58  
Thank you for having me on. Rodney. I

Rodney  2:00  
appreciate it. Awesome, awesome, awesome. So this is kind of like, this is your life. So, you know, I'm going back. We're gonna go way back. Was because you are such a multi, multi hyphenate. But I always sense that writing was, always is the number one thing was that the intention, like, was that when you were, like, you know, 910, years old, I'm going to be a writer like, what drove the initial going into being this multi hyphenate,

Mathew  2:32  
because I have been engaged in so many different kinds of productions when it comes to what some might call content, especially these days, I have taken to calling myself, just to keep it a little more concise, a multi platform storyteller. And honestly, I believe I was using the term storyteller fairly early on now these days, it's a corporate term that gets bandied about, and just about everybody or anybody refers to themselves as a storyteller, which is fine, the more the merrier. But I had originally been using it, I think, in a more pure form, if you will, just because that was back before it was such a saleable or marketable term, especially to identify yourself as and the reason for that is, as you said, I don't just write, I produce. I put on live events. I bring other people together for oral histories and interviews. I've been very involved in the realm of journalism and reportage. So my real Mo is storytelling. That is probably what everything I've ever done when it comes to this kind of creative machinations, falls under the umbrella of and I would actually, believe it or not, go back even before nine or 10, I was a kid when I was four or five, who was telling stories to himself, writing stories down in the best way that I could. As a younger person, when my mom would come in to tuck me in, so to speak, at night, she would tell me stories, and very early on, I would take over and tell her where the stories went, and she was very adept at allowing for that. My mom was extremely encouraging and supportive of my very, very early foundational storytelling interests. I would take my Berenstein Bears books and other picture books, and write on them and put in my own dialog at a very young age when I could barely even spell. It was just something I always did. I This was before the internet. This was before, well, not before the internet, but before people were really using the internet aside the military. Etc. But this was, you know, I'm not that old, yeah, the big, bulky camcorders and things and so friends of mine and I, yeah, we would, we would do radio shows in the garage with tape recorders. We would make little short films when you still had to edit between the VCRs. And that was just something I always did. And as I like to tell people when this kind of thing comes up, because there was no real internet that we use, or social media or anything. We were doing it for ourselves. We didn't even really put on shows or have screenings of our little short films. We really just enjoyed the process, even when we would do little radio shows where we'd record on little tape recorders and make noises and things I don't recall ever playing it for anybody. Afterwards, we would use the same tape over and over again. We just enjoyed the process of producing and ultimately telling stories. And at a fairly early age, I just started taking things to the next level. And wrote my first novel when I was 13. That was about 350 pages. It was unreadable and unpublishable. It was a fiction story genre.

Rodney  6:08  
We got to start somewhere. I mean, yeah, yeah.

Mathew  6:12  
It really was just the idea. I remember, even at the time, just being very proud that I finished a novel. It started off as a short story. It became a longer short story, and at one point, I just went for it, and before I knew it, I had written 350 pages. And again, you know, there was no Live Journal, there was no social media. I don't even really remember having the idea that I would ever publish it. I just really loved sitting down and writing a novel. And for the next few summers throughout high school, I wrote another novel, went to film school at USC, did screenwriting there, and just really went to town. And I was just constantly involved in other people's short films and working on film sets in Hollywood, and doing journalism work and writing screenplays and writing more books, and very much got involved, and that was my life. My time in film school, I didn't get much out of the schooling for good or ill, I won't lie, but I spent so much time producing and interning and working on other people's projects and going and doing things at Paramount Studios. I mean, that was one nice thing about being in LA and at film school at USC, was I had access to all of that, and I was very involved. And even back then, as you said, very involved in community groups. I worked with the ACLU on different live events and helping them with city. And I volunteered for other organizations. I got involved with an organization called the kids of Whitney high, which was a music program at a special ed school nearby. And I still do things with them and work with them, even though I'm not in LA anymore, you know, 20 plus years later. So I just love making things. I love interacting with people, and I love telling stories, and that's pretty much what I've made my life into, you know, for good or else. Oh, well,

Rodney  7:59  
I think, I think it, I think it was for incredible good. I mean, I that's, I've always been impressed that that, that your your drive to to like you said, like, your drive to tell these stories, to connect and engage. It's like it just propelled you, even when you were here in Dayton. But we're not going to get to Dayton yet because it's too early in the podcast. Because I well, and I kind of curious about you talked about film school, because this is a film school being not necessarily the way you thought it was going to turn out, to really inform you. And this is important for people who are listening, because it is, this is called Inspired by is that sometimes you go to pursue something and it doesn't necessarily, it's not a linear sort of in conclusion. And so talk to me about what it what was it about film school that didn't, didn't, didn't resonate or connect with you kind of curious about that?

Mathew  8:57  
I, first of all, I did not like LA as soon as I got there, I realized I was in the wrong place, and I ended up going through my entire four years at film school at USC, and staying in LA for the next five or six years, working right out of the gate. I was working and at pretty high end levels, and I still didn't like it. I did not like the traffic. I did not like the lack of parking. I did not like how expensive everything was. I even really didn't particularly care for the weather. Growing up in Southern California, I always fantasized about snow. I was always writing reports about Alaska, you know, yeah, I really there was just something about I always felt, even as a younger person in Southern California, I was, I was born in the wrong place, so when I got to LA very quickly, I realized I was in the wrong spot. I also just never really jived with the people who were there. You know, there's a lot of jokes made, and some rightly so about the kind. Of people who are in LA, particularly Hollywood and whole film machine. You know, we got to remember it's, it's make believe land. It's the more that you act, quote, unquote or lie, is another way of putting it, the better you do. And that's both in front of and behind the camera. And you end up with a lot of people who might be rather fake and can't even help it. I met a lot of really well intentioned people, and I'm still very close with a few people who are there. Many of them have also left, especially since COVID. Of course, that's a whole other thing, but I just never really connected with a lot of people that I met in LA and all different kinds of backgrounds and ages and cultures and communities. You know, la does obviously have a lot of that, a lot of eclecticism, but I never really connected to the community there, and the way I have with so many other places I've lived in around the country, including other big cities. It wasn't just it was a big city before even Thanksgiving. So we talked in a few months, I called my mom and said, I think I made a mistake. I think I need to go to New York. I think I need to go to Columbia. So first of all is that I really just didn't feel that comfortable in LA and in Hollywood. Secondly, and this is an issue that I've had for years, especially since then, and having worked at colleges in different capacities and guest lectured, and having friends who are in various realms of academia when it comes to humanities, when it comes to the arts, I do definitely question the validity of that kind of schooling or programming. I absolutely want a doctor who has been in school for 12 years. I absolutely want an engineer, probably a lawyer, probably even someone, maybe with an MBA, who's going to be helping me with business or I'm going to work with my business, sure, but when it comes to humanities, when it comes to the arts, I'm not really certain, and I was not then either how valuable a degree is, because, not just because, who knows what you're going to be able to to monetize with it later on. I've certainly never gotten much out of my degree. A Film, film degree hasn't really been very helpful for me. But also, you are by nature institutionalized. You're by nature staying in these rooms, in these bubbles. Physically you're consigned. Yes, there's internship programs, yes, there's labs, yes there's there should be abilities to get out in community, and working together on short films or other projects in the community and that kind of thing. Sure. I mean, I was at USC, it's supposed to be the best film school in the world, but then and now I just look back on it, or when I meet people who are PhDs in certain arts and whatnot, I wonder, how much have you really just spent your time consigned in a classroom, versus what I've done over the last 20 years, or what a lot of other people I know have done over the last 20 years, many of whom never went to film school or any kind of college and just started working. And to wrap that up, I'll just say that even at USC, a top film school then and now, most of my professors were academics. They were not, they were actually not in the business. They were not in the business. And that's not helpful for two reasons. One is, there were, there were professors who I saw were doing the same lecture they did the year before. They were recording their lecture to do it the next year, everything was so static and was was sustained. And frankly, whether it's film or any kind of art or humanities, really, it should be something that's very nebulous and very of the time and changing constantly. So if you're being taught by somebody who's not in the field, or maybe was in the field 10 years before, 20 years before, or just is getting at it at an academic, Scholastic level, they don't really know what's going on. Because, as we know, and this is true of a lot of industries, what you learn from the textbook is not exactly what's going on in the real world. Absolutely, that's so dangerous to teach. And frankly, I found people in LA and New York and other places I've been who I almost had to hide my degree from because they're worried. Oh, you, you got your degree, so you're gonna have a very static sense of what the industry is. You're not really gonna know the practical, down and dirty, you know, nitty gritty, of what it takes to make a film or work in television and so forth. That really was a real thing. Two, the other problem that I really have with it on a practical level is I would have instructors or professors or others at the school who loved what I was doing or really enjoyed a screenplay of mine, and then there was nothing they could do about it. When I do guest lectures at colleges, when I've pitched myself to colleges to teach or to get involved with their programs or art schools in general, one of the things I always say is I'm working so not only do I know what's actually going on right this second in 2024 and 2025 but if I see a student who really has some talent and some ability, I could pass their work along to agents and to editors and to producers and to publishers, and I could actually help. Them to take their work to that next level, if they so choose. And that's, I think, very important, because that really is the hardest part, especially these days, is to get through those gatekeepers. And if you're just being taught by people, in all fairness, who are academics and are not out in that world and don't have those agents or connections to editors or publishers or whatever, you're not going to be able to help the students really achieve in that regard. And I think that that's a real problem, especially when it's happening at a school like USC then and now, we were all very aware of how expensive it was, and just living in LA was very expensive. Yeah, absolutely.

Rodney  15:35  
Even then, even then, it was a what you're touching upon is something that has come up in conversation with other people we've had as guests on the show, is this question of, I love you use the word static. And one of the things that we always talk about, I've heard other people say, How do you remain How can you remain nimble if you've not been taught or you're in the nimbleness of what you do, yeah, especially as a creative because, like you said, the world has changed. I mean, we, you know, we're it's changing exponentially faster and faster and faster and faster and so. So how to your point is, like, I, and I'm recently just stepping out of academia, and I find this to be very liberating and freeing personally,

Mathew  16:22  
as many people pursue that, I know as well, when

Rodney  16:24  
you had that moment where you just go, Oh, this feels so lighter of a load I'm still doing and talking about and the same things, but from a much lighter human existence, which I think is much more beneficial to, to your point, in dealing with someone who's young, who's saying that they will do this, because it's like, you can tell them, like, hey, you know, these are some things to avoid. This is something you might want to look into. Talk to someone. So how about this? And you. And the thing is, I just glad you said it, because a lot of times people have a tendency to believe, Oh, look at the credentials. But no, listen to the human being. Look at the work. Look at how they work. Yes, why they work, right? Versus this the black and white, because that just gets to be a little

Mathew  17:14  
it makes things very exclusionary, frankly. And I think it's quite ironic that over the last decade, and particularly over the last couple of years, maybe even longer, really the goal, especially in the realm of academia and in liberal arts and the creative realm in general, but particularly in academia and University, has been to be more inclusive. Has been to bring in more voices and and really what's ended up happening with this canonization of the degree and people feeling like they have to get a master's, they have to get an MFA, they have to get a PhD. Because, let's be honest, if you're going to spend that kind of time and money, especially if you are somebody who's coming from an underprivileged community where that's a lot of money and that's a lot of time, and especially if you have a young family trying to get your PhD, let's say, and you're barely able to pay the bills you are gonna need, at some level, a practical ROI on all the money and time you're putting in, even with scholarships and funding and whatever, absolutely So if you're coming out the other side and you're feeling like you're you're not going to really get that the next step, of course, and one of the reasons a lot of people get their MFA or PhD is to be able to teach, which, you know, there's a level of that that that's great for them, as hard as it is these days, as you know, Rodney, even with an MFA or PhD, to Get a good teaching a good teaching position, absolutely, or have teaching position at all at a college that's really going to pay your bills and that kind of thing. But what I'm saying is, what's ironic about it is that I wish that there were ways that you could teach at the college level without having to spend all that time and money and energy to get a PhD, I feel as though if you were some kind of a prodigy who, right out of the gate when you're 2223 years old, wrote an incredible memoir that maybe won some awards or became a best seller or became a movie, or just as something that was really critically hailed that that's so much more valuable to the students, to the school, to the community, than somebody who spent 10 years getting their PhD, and that becomes a gatekeeping mechanism. I'm one of those people, and I've known a lot of people like that, who I've worked on and made a lot of movies and comic books and podcasts and books, and that was what I was doing with my 20s and my 30s, and even now, as opposed to spending the money and spending the time on getting a higher end degree, and I feel like there's. More of a value to that, in a lot of cases, than MFA or a PhD. And part of why I didn't go for my MFA or PhD is because of money and because of time. I was doing a lot of production because that was paying my bills.

Rodney  20:13  
You are, you're you're already on the you're already on the pathway of the journey. There was no need to add, there's no reason add to the backpack that you were on. A lot

Mathew  20:22  
of that, a lot of that's what I'm talking about. With exclusivity. A lot of that comes down to cost. Because, as we know, even with scholarships and funding and self, yeah, it's very expensive, yeah, and I don't even know how much it would have really helped me to teach and you know, so I think it's unfortunate for everybody when it comes down to do you have a degree and and unfortunately, that has been the case even in the academic world when it comes to publishing, a lot of the time now, is a lot of publishers will only talk with you or work with you if you have a PhD. On the other end of it, a lot of publishers in the mainstream press will only talk with you, work with you if you have over 500,000 followers on social media, and that too is very exclusionary. People are able to pay apps to get more followers. People are able to you know if you're living in mom and dad's basement, or in some cases, in LA, New York mom and dad's mansion, and, you know, in your early 20s, which allows you to be in LA or New York and not have to pay for rent or for food or for gas, maybe. And you're able to spend five hours or 10 hours a day making videos about this, that or the other, and doing all this stuff on social media and Tiktok, yeah, you're going to probably amass a lot more followers than somebody who is struggling working three jobs, or whatever it might be, absolutely so too. Yeah, in both those levels, it's exclusionary. You either need 500,000 followers to do the mainstream and or you'd have a degree to do the academic. And in both cases, you might not be able

Rodney  21:56  
to there's and there's a barrier to that. It was a book that you might be interested in. I love plugging someone else's book on a podcast, but filter world. What talks about this question of the flattening of culture? Yes, because everything is based upon this notion that if you have 5000 followers, is it worth you looking at I'm like, well, not. If you're picking apart, you start to pick things apart and realize there's a blandness. There's a there's a homogenization that's rooted in something else that's not creative other than it's holding a place in our visual realm. Yeah, and that's and like, no, that doesn't work. I look at people's Instagrams, I go, No, no, you're just, you're not really. It's even some artists, it's like, wow. Okay, you are ready for that Prada campaign, but I don't think you're necessarily making art that's compelling and making me want to rethink my relationship to humanity. So it's like, not to say you can't be a we're Prada and be thought provoking and engaging. I just feel like you're pursuing the the Prada versus the art that's really compelling, right? You? And it's a choice. You're made that choice, and so when a society does that, so what's

Mathew  23:16  
the polarization

Rodney  23:18  
of, yeah,

Mathew  23:19  
what you're talking about and problematic or no, I'm gonna quote Mr. Roman Polanski now the film, who did make a point at one point where he said, and other people have said the same thing, that if you want to put everything into content and and and into commercialization, but no real production value, no real connection. On that level, you would end up with pornography. You know, it is all just about the subject. It can it doesn't matter if you, you know, he didn't say this at time, because it was so many years ago. But it doesn't matter if you shot it on your phone and you don't have any lighting and you're using non actors and so forth. It's all just about the sale of that the subject, which is explicit nudity and that kind of thing. Obviously, on the other end of it is the professionalism and gloss and sale of the structure itself, and that is a an advertisement or a commercial, where all that really matters is how good does it look, and how professionally made is it, and how slick and glossy, again, especially back then. I mean, these days, you know, there's a lot of combinations of the two, but particularly back in the let's say the 70s or 80s, everything was so much about the gloss and the slickness and the professionalism. So, you know, that was the polarization that he discussed. And I think that that's really interesting, as on one level, you have this, you know, Madison Avenue commercial, where the content doesn't matter at all. It's all about the gloss and the sale and the marketing. And then on the other end, it's pornography, which is, it could be this. Loppiest, messiest thing. And all that matters is, you know, the subject in that regard, it's like a splash. It's like Exactly, exactly, yeah. And of course, there is that medium ground, and that's often what I'm talking about, just real quick, what I can't stand. Because, in addition to making movies and working on movies and teaching about movies. I've also been a film critic, and I still as a kind of amateur, if you will. I still talk with friends, and I always try to see as much as possible, but I can't stand this trend of people over the last 10 or 15 years, maybe longer now, who might say, well, it wasn't a very good movie, but you know, it was a lot of fun, though. And you know, I'm not looking for for something that's a great film. I just wanted something that was entertaining. And I say, you know, what a terrible bar that we have set as a collective society, because I would say, I would challenge that. Why? By saying there are films, certainly back in the day, and even still, occasionally now, that are both, that's the big secret. It's that doesn't make sure, you know, he both, it can be a really fun movie, really entertaining, but still very well made. And, you know, I think of filmmakers like Paul vorovie who made total recall and Robocop and Starship Troopers, what a great example of films that are action films and blood and guts and TNA and are based on comic books, and are so silly and goofy, and at the same time, they're very well written. And there's so much interesting things going on with character development and with philosophy and with the sense of existence. There's so much going on in those films. Or James Cameron's a great example. I mean, look at a movie like Terminator or or Terminator two. Again, they're comic book movies, but really good comic book movies that have, you know, in those cases, too good acting a lot of the time, and they're dealing with the nature of the self and the soul and memory, and what does it mean to be human. And there's also blood and guts and Arnold Schwarzenegger, you so you can do both. It doesn't need to be Michael Bay. It doesn't need to be some of these other movies these days that are just, man, hey, there's more explosions. Yeah, exactly.

Rodney  27:04  
Who? A man who creates light sources Don't, don't exist in the scene. And, you know, it's an ally. You're like, Dude, stop that.

Mathew  27:10  
And really great example of he made really great commercials. A lot of people don't know this, but he made the commercials. And those are great little short films like, wow, those, those sold that product and made us think about things. But as an entire film, I just don't think he's typically able to do it. I don't think he really cares, uh, unfortunately, because he doesn't have to. He's got the big stars and he's got sexy people and the explosions and transformers and whatnot. Good for him. You know, he's doing what he wants to do. That's fine, but I do think that it can be both, and I wish that more people both on both sides, both the producers and the consumers, because it's as Fugazi the punk band, would say, it's not just about what you're selling, it's about what you're buying. If we're constantly buying into these movies that we all kind of know are trash or are way too long or where are really decadent and nothing's really going on and it's and it's, you know, visual masturbation, or whatever it might be on the point of the directors or the corporations or studios that are making them, if we keep going to them and supporting them, they're going to keep making them so too, with television, comic books, music and so forth. So we need to be a little bit more discerning about what we're buying so that they go, Hey, we really need to start making some better movies. And that's just,

Rodney  28:25  
well, absolutely, it's just a question of better choices. And I love it you talk, because that's one of the things I love is because Mathew, you were here in Dayton for a while, is that we even had these conversations. We had these conversations. I was left going. More food for thought. More of these. This, this quite because that's what when you're in your thing, plus you have thoughts about other thing, like you're you're a connoisseur of, and I'm using that word in air quotes, of everything culture. And it's not because I was, I bristle when people say pop culture. Sometimes I go, it's all culture. Yes, it's pop culture. Quit, stop. It's it's all one in the same and they're through lines and threads and contextual connections and so, yeah, so because I obviously believe a comic book can be a great work

Mathew  29:16  
of art, and they and they've proven that multiple times now, time, the fact that Alan Moore's watchman, very famously, was on Time Magazine's list of 100 greatest books of the century, which was very controversial at the time. It was on the same list as Ulysses and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and To Kill a Mockingbird. And there were people who were not happy about it, right? But that was an important moment in the history of the comics, even the idea of a graphic novel at all it's in the name is still relatively new, and was still relatively unique and explosive when it really started to come together, especially for what they were being used for, even early on, by the likes of Will Eisner and who was talking about. Wish culture and and certainly the big one that most people, I would hope, know, you know, Mao's my Art Spiegelman, where it started out his father's experience in Holocaust, and so much of that had to have been done in a graphic novel format. It really wouldn't have worked as well as just a solid movie, or as a TV show, or certainly as a novel, there was something about it that was very important about it as a graphic novel. And I will just say to your point earlier, it's not just with comic books or graphic novels. You're right. I'm not the first person to say this, but there has been a movement of sorts in this, in our world, of this kind of work and criticism and discussion, of people saying, Stop saying pop culture. Just say culture. It's just, it is the culture. Harry Potter, Star Wars, Star Trek. It is, it is our culture. Now, now more than ever,

Rodney  30:53  
absolutely as I point over my shoulder. I mean, I got grogu. I mean, I think it's because, and you're absolutely right. It's something that I've kind of dealt with in dealing with the world of dance, that dance like they kind of want to separate dance out, like, there's there's concert dance and there's street dance, like No, right? There's dance. Dance is reflection of cultures people, how they combine, come, come together and connect, whether it be that you bought a ticket or that you circled up at a warehouse and a cipher and battle it out with some, with some, with some, some hardcore street dancing. Does it matter? It is still an expression of your humanity. So stop trying to say one's better than the other. One is a thing you're there's a lot of I understand. The separation allows for people to do that thing that we're so good at in this country, and that's separate people. Yep, I was just gonna

Mathew  31:49  
say segregation, especially now that it's been proven over and over again with your Alvin aileys And your Twila tharps and Savion Glover is another really great example, and so many, you know, obviously you would know more about dance than I do. Rodney, I don't know that much about the field, but you could see it in what's being done. And the uptown and the downtown really, not only can come together, but they have so many times over the last few years. And the fact that it still is distinguished is a little silly, because it doesn't make any sense. You know you see as good a material on off Broadway or off off Broadway as you do Broadway and or as you do at some small theater in the middle of wherever. One of the best live shows I've ever seen was a small community theater in Bloomington, Indiana. I still think about it to this day, my wife at the time and I saw it and it, it impacted us, and we would quote it, and we would bring it up. And there were ideas in it that were so funny and true and smart. It was a kind of Annie Hall When Harry Met Sally, type of project, and just the production value and the acting and the writing and the songs and the choreography, and it was this tiny, little 60 person theater, maybe 60, if that. And you know, there was definitely a sense of boy, it's such a shame it's being put on here. Why isn't it on Broadway? Why isn't it On Off Broadway? Why isn't in England, or whatever it might have gone and that kind of thing. But there was also an element of a It should also be here too, in a small town in Indiana, they deserve that also. And B, maybe that's part of why it came out of there. Was because it was such a unique, fresh voice, and it was able to come out, you know, break through, without having to deal with all the white noise of being on Broadway or bringing in LA and all the practicalities of it, illegalities and the financial aspects and whatnot so and having moved around the country as I have, and having lived in so many different places, and having been involved in the media and the community arts and culture, you know, communities as I have been all over, I have seen that time and time and time again. I've heard music. I have seen short films, and even feature length films that are far and away better in small little towns in Kansas or Missouri or Ohio than in LA or New York, and I would still say that to this day, now, more than ever, hopefully, what are they getting? The distribution they deserve? Are they getting the financial backing that they that they need or deserve? That's still an issue very much. So yes, the production has been democratized, as people say, because it's a little easier and cheaper and more accessible to make a movie now, or to do some of these things, you know, you know, to put together an album, to self publish a book, but you're still going to have the challenge of publicity. You're still going to have the challenge of larger distribution, of larger exhibition. And, you know, I know we'll get into it in a minute, but that's, I think, one of the issues in Dayton, for example, right,

Rodney  34:41  
right. There is, there's, there's an absolute. You're absolutely right. And I love the fact that you talk about that. It still resonates with you to this day, and as we as creatives, one of the things that I'm finding out with this pod, with this with this podcast, is that people are discovering things about the people that we bring on the podcast, but also big. Are questions about themselves and the communities in which they live. And that is that sometimes it's not always the big, flashy thing that you that's being driving your attention. It can be that community theater show. It could be that kids show, quote, unquote. I say kids show because the show is a show, but because there's a there's an element to it that it just, there's an alchemy that we can't describe. Yes, that just hits and that hits and it resonates, and it's boom, and it's served its purpose, and that was to continue. So I, you know, to get you motivated to go out and seek more.

Ad  35:43  
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Mathew  36:27  
Yes, and maybe to get involved, maybe to produce, maybe to push your comfort level. And that's a lot of the kind of work that I've tried to do, especially in live theater that I've done over the years, not just in Ohio, but all over the country. As I talked about early on, I was 1819, years old at USC when I first got there, working with the kids, that would mean high they were quite literally, a group of young, young people and a special ed program at a special ed school in LA and I was working with them on on on music videos, and I was working with them on short films, and I was teaching them about the history of film and television and Creative Writing, and working with them on poetry and doing poetry out in the community. And that is definitely a community and a group, if you even want to call that. Some don't like that. You know, why? Why? Just because I'm in a wheelchair and he's blind. Why are we being compared? They were totally different people, but that's a whole other thing. The point being and working with them on expressing those kinds of ideas and questions. But the point is, I've loved working with groups like that, or working with children as I have, and those who normally a wouldn't do something like that, or B wouldn't have the opportunity to, and not at that kind of a professional level, aside from, you know, a fourth grade, you know, talent show or something like that. So I'm very interested in that, and would like to see that. And the more we make those kinds of things and put them out there on a larger level, the more people will say, hey, we can do that too. Slash, hey, I can get a group of kids together, a group of people with disabilities together, or a group of elderly people who, you know, maybe have been forgotten by society, or just, you know, staring out the window at some, you know, facility somewhere, something like that, like let's do something with them. Let's bring them back to life. Let's awaken them and also awaken the community to what is possible, and I think that's so important to do, especially again, at a time when we're always talking about inclusivity and new voices, you know, we really need to broaden what that means and what that is, and that's so much the work that I've done and I'm doing all around the country, and enjoy seeing more and more people do it and hoping that more and more People do it. I

Rodney  38:41  
love that. I love it. So I want to talk to you about the there's one book that I know in particular, but I want to talk about the the very first book that not the, not the science fiction novel with that 250 pages, but the first book that actually got published. You felt that that established that this could be the thing. Yeah, talk about that first book. Because I because I'm kind of curious as soon, what did that feel like, and what did that kind of do for you? Because,

Mathew  39:12  
no, I this you, you were very specialized about what you were just saying, Rodney, in a way that I'm glad, and it's one of the reasons I like talking to you, because it's not, it's not my first book. It is my first book. As you said, that made me feel like I was established now. I had a few smaller books. You know, like so many other people, I did more or less self publish a book when I was 18. I got a small grant and was able to do that. I even worked with the printer and the typesetting, and they had the particular printer I worked with, had never done anything like that before. In fact, a lot of the people the staff came out to kind of, you know, to look at it and go, Wow, this is what we made. And it was very exciting. And we got some great reviews, and that kind of thing, you know, when I was 18, it was just a test. It was an experiment. I wanted to see. I've. Self published since then, and have my own issues with why. I don't think that's necessarily a good idea, at least for someone like me, but I did after that, have a couple of small books published by some very, very small, like micro publishers, but the first book that was published of mine where I said, Okay, now I really feel like I can call myself an author professionally, and just had that sense of wow, that here it is. Was my oral history of Nickelodeon called slimed, which it's amazing to think about. In fact, I was looking at some articles that I had written for a blog that ultimately became part of New York Magazine. And if you look it up now, it's through New York Magazine, which is really fun, or vulture even, which is part of New York Magazine. Also, they've kind of acquired all these other things, like the one I started with. I was just looking at it this morning, one of the old articles. I just kind of had a curiosity. So it's funny, we're bringing it up. And yeah, it was February 2012 the book actually came out September 2013 I would have been, I think I had just turned 32 I've been working on it for about, Yeah, almost two years before that a little bit less, and it honestly rod me. And I've talked about this a few times before, even in some of the classes and guest lectures I've done because I want to manage expectations. And I think a lot of my friends who have been published authors or produced films have felt similarly, which is, yeah, you definitely feel a sense of relief and a sense of awe at yourself, especially at first, quote, unquote, big one. Here it is, doing all these interviews, you know. And I was in New York at the time. I mean, I had friends. You could see my face and in different magazines and newspapers around town and whatnot. And, you know, I got to be famous for a few weeks in New York. That was fun. And, you know, these big events, like at the 90 2y where, you know, they'll, they'll post talks with Oprah and with Obama, and with all these different poet laureates and things and whatnot. So it was great to do an event there. We had 900 people come. I put on this huge kind of Nickelodeon reunion event, and was working with all these different vendors and such on. It was fantastic. It was great to do that. It was great to have a hard cover book that was published by at the time point, Penguin now. Penguin Random House. It was great to see articles about my book and myself and Entertainment Weekly, especially back then, when that still meant something all that was great. But I will tell you something else Rodney that a lot of people don't know about or don't think about, which is it still comes down to publicity, distribution and exhibition, and even with so many heavy hitters, working with me, the publisher, and so forth. As I just said, backing me up, there were still some things missing that were pulled back on, and there were still some resources missing that I didn't have or that my publisher chose not to pull the lever on. And very specifically, what I'm talking about is I'm in New York City. I'm in the Mecca, the hub of the literary world, especially at that time still. And I remember being so excited the night before my book was going to come out, and I just couldn't wait. And the first thing I wanted to do was, like, waiting on, you know, I'm Jewish, but, you know, still waiting on Christmas morning, like, oh, boy, I can't wait for the light, you know, the light of day to come and I'm gonna run down to Union Square. I'm gonna run down to Times Square. I'm gonna run to all the big bookstores and Barnes and Noble, and I'm gonna go see my book. And I was so excited, and I couldn't wait. And I got to the first Barnes and Noble and Union Square area, and I didn't see my book. Where's my book? I don't understand. Here's all the new books. Where's my book? Why don't I see my book? And by the way, for those who know, the book is bright green, so it's not hard to miss. You know, we kind of did that additional Nickelodeon green slime, so it makes sense. Yeah, absolutely, it's bright green. It's like I thought I would see it like through the window. Nope, it's not there. And I walked around. I kept walking. It's not there. It's not there. I couldn't see it. I actually went up to one of the workers or manager or something. And I said, Hey, you know, I'm wondering, you know, I didn't want to play the game of telling them who I was and want to be that guy. But I just said, Hey, I'm wondering if you have any copies of slime in all history, Nickelodeon's golden age by Mathew Klickstein. I might not have even said my name, and they didn't even know what I was talking about. They had to go to the back. They came back and yeah, it was, oh yeah. I think we have a couple of coffees in the back. And it's like, oh, okay, well, you know. And then I went to the next bookstore, same thing. I went to a few different bookstores in New York City, you know. So this is where the books are supposed to be out and about, you know, if it's not here, you know, it's a paraphrase, it's not happening anywhere. If they don't have it here, they're not going to have it in Iowa,

Rodney  44:38  
and it's not gonna be a pick one.

Mathew  44:43  
It was such a buzz kill. And I still I'm getting shivers thinking about it right now. It really it was like being it was like setting up my wedding for two years, and everything was set and everything was ready, and we got the venue we wanted, and we're on the. We're in the gazebo over the cliff, and the water's there, and the weather's perfect, and everybody's wearing white, and 500 people, friends and family are there, and the best food and champagne, and my bride doesn't show up. You know that's what it felt like. I've never had that specifically happen to me, so I don't know for sure, but I would think that's what it felt like, and it was absolutely devastating. And I will say Rodney, unfortunately, I've had, I've started having similar kinds of experiences thereafter with multiple projects of mine, because I have done comic books, I have done podcasts, I have done movies, and again, with Sirius XM and with Food Network and with Sony Pictures. And, you know, I, I've worked with that's, that's part of what is so hurtful about it. It's, it's, I'm not self publishing, I'm not working, you know, these days, I'm doing, I'm working with smaller companies, whatnot, just because it's, frankly, easier, quicker, faster, and I'd rather get $5,000 now, rather than waiting for $50,000 for years from now. That's a whole other thing. But the point being, I, I started feeling, I started going through it so many times, that I kind of became inured to it. And I mean, I'm at the point right now. I have two new books coming out in the new year, and they're both coming out through great companies. One's a University Press, the first time I've worked with an Academic Press, and one is one of the top indie comic book, graphic novel companies, fan of graphics that's done so much stuff over the last 50 years, most people probably at least have heard of some of their projects, ghost world, and they put out all the reprints of peanuts and things like that. They're a top dog company that you want to work with in the independent realm. And you know, I'm excited about it, and I'm glad that they're finally coming out. I've been working on both them for the last two years or so, but let's just say I'm not going to be running to any bookstores and going, where's my book, where's my book, because I know that they're just not going to be out there in that way, and especially at this level and at this time in our society, they're not going to be in a big magazine, and they're not going to, you know, that's those kinds of things don't happen anymore unless you have a $20,000 a week publicist, or, as we said, 500,000 followers on social media. I'm lucky to be published at all. As I said earlier, that is true. You know, it's hard to even get into that world. Part of it is I kind of got in right before that really became a requirement. And so now I have something of a cachet. I have something of a name. I have certain connections I've made over the last few years. But if I were starting right now. Oh, there's

Rodney  47:23  
almost, yeah, that's interesting. Well, the thing is, what was always impressed me about you, Mathew, is the fact that that that that doesn't deter or hinder doing it, because it is the writing. It was like, I mean, even when we're when you're here in Dayton, and then it's like, we got that great history of Comic Con, yeah, that you wrote, which I read, and I fell in love with it. You're the one. Oh, hell yeah. I was like, I was like, dude, first. I was like, I was impressed by the thoroughness of your research. I was you, you you had stories and connected with people. I thought, oh my god, this is the kind of stuff that. That's what you want a book to do. You want to you. I want to discover a world I didn't know anything about. I only knew on the surface, and you dug below the surface, and you went in the history the cast of characters, the folks who kind of built a world is not built by one person, it's built by a community, and that's what you illustrated for me in the book. So kudos. I've seen fanboying out for you, and

Mathew  48:26  
I appreciate it. And that too is why I like to do oral histories, why I like to bring in as many different voices as possible. You know, there were people even asking, you know, that's a good example. I really kind of brought in somebody that you wouldn't necessarily expect on a book on Comic Con, which was I had the afterward written by Rizza from Wu Tang. And there were definitely people say, Why the heck would you do that? And there were a number of reasons why. One of them, honestly, was just, I always wanted a chance to talk to them, and I got it. We've actually become pretty friendly over the years, which is, I just did an event with him, remotely recently. Actually even out here where I am in Colorado, in Colorado. Now, it's a great guy, at least to me, I don't know, but the point being, you know, I wanted a different kind of a voice that you wouldn't necessarily expect in a book like that. And he was great. And his afterward is fantastic. It's one of my favorite parts of the book. Not to mention, he would bring in a different kind of market than what what we would get otherwise, because people, unfortunately, think that something about Comic Con or comic books or science fiction or or that kind of version of quote, unquote pop culture, as we were saying earlier, you know, would be a certain kind of market, a certain kind of demographic. And a, I wanted to destroy that and prove that that's wrong, that stereotype or archetype and B, you know, even on a saleability, marketability level, because I do need to put on the salesman hat. I do need to be PT Barnum and the carnival barker a little bit. I was hoping, okay, Rizzo will have a different kind of an audience, for most part, than you know, what would traditionally go for a book like this. And that certainly helped. And I was very happy that he did a video about it, and he was posting about it. And it was one thing to have Kevin Smith, a filmmaker, do the same thing, but that's his world. He is Mr. Geek guy. He is Mr. Nerd guy, right? So to have someone like Rizza, or a few other people that might have seemed a little bit unique to a book like this, that I got involved with it, I really wanted to bring it all together. And I think Comic Con is a great example. Great example what we were just talking about. It's so syncretic, and that's a lot of what the book's about is that it does bring so many different kinds of absolutely, so many different kinds of people. And a lot of the stereotypes that people have about that kind of world are so incorrect if you actually go to them, and if you actually experience them. And not just Comic Con, you know, San Diego Comic Con, but other conventions and whatnot. They are places for misfits. They are places for outsiders and weirdos, geeks and freaks and people dress up and, you know, that's, that's what it really is. I mean, that's, that's the secret of conventions like that. And I've been to small ones and big ones all over the country. And the one thing they all have in common is these are people who many of them for good or ill, for much their lives, if not still to this day, probably feel very nervous about going out in public, or probably are not that comfortable in a group setting because of the way they look or the their interests or, you know, just other aspects of their personality or who they are, and yet they can come to these conventions, small ones, big ones alike, and feel very at home, very included. We're actually working on the documentary right now, and some one of the other things that was coming together while I was in Dayton, based on the book and the podcast site done on it as well. And the title we're going with now is everyone is invited, and we actually just had a meeting yesterday. Yeah, love the title our producer, oh yeah, no, I and we've been trying to come up with title. I've actually gone through different versions of this project for a little bit now, and this is the latest iteration of it, and that title is fantastic. But it's true that whole idea is beyond the pop culture, quote, unquote, beyond the Star Wars, beyond the Star Trek, beyond the it's, it is inclusivity, and true inclusivity, and it is doesn't matter how you look, it doesn't matter your age, your gender, your background, where you're coming from. You can be Rizza from Wu Tang. You can be some kid from middle of nowhere in Iowa. You can be, you know, it doesn't matter me from another country. It doesn't matter when you come to these places. Everybody's connecting over our love for Batman, over our love for Star Wars, over our hate for Star Wars.

Rodney  52:36  
You know what I love when you because you thank you for reminding about about Reza was the fact that this comic, comic book culture is, is hip hop, it's, it's the

Mathew  52:51  
remix. Did you say sampling? For sure, it's

Rodney  52:54  
sampling and remix. And so that whole notion of like, when you did that, it was like that you in your way you acknowledge that there was this, that this was a part of it, because I grew up in a predominantly African American community, and so comic books, that's all we did. It didn't matter if you were the you were, you were the basketball God on the court, or me, the geeky nerd who wore corrective shoes and big glasses. You all went to Dragon's Lair to go get comic books, right? Comic books because I was the comic book store to go to, it didn't matter. It was because that was our great leveler.

Mathew  53:32  
It's a community or a club. One thing I was really excited to talk about, and I kind of surprised myself in realizing this while I was talking about it in interviews for the Comic Con book, especially some of the local ones, because, again, I'm from Southern California, only about an hour to north of San Diego. So I was doing interviews for the LA Times and Orange County Register and a lot of California based publications where I was kind of a bit of a hometown hero kid for a minute while I was talking about that book and that project, or the podcast that came out originally before that Comic Con begins through Sirius XM, available everywhere, free, though, if anybody wants to check out being one of the things I talked about this is true, and I kind of realized it while I was talking about it was I was never really that into comic books as a kid, but I would always hang out at comic book stores, because for two reasons. One is, unlike video stores, which were a thing at the time, or record stores, there were places to sit because people were sitting to play Dungeons and Dragons or to paint their action figures or battle tech figures or whatever it might be, at a point Magic, the Gathering early on. And so there were places you can actually sit. You can really sit in a video store. You couldn't really sit in most record stores unless they were, like really big ones where there was kind of activities and things going on. Comic book stores had places you could sit and you could hang out there. And even though I wasn't that into. Comic books as a kid. You know, back even when I had to walk there, ride my bike there, because I didn't have a car yet. I was 1011, 12 years old, that's where I'd go to kind of hang out with, quote, unquote, my people. I would hang out with the people who, yeah, maybe they'd be talking about sports, yeah, maybe they'd be talking about going on dates and some of these other things that were a little bit out of my Ken. But for the most part, it was people talking about not just comic books, but movies and animation and anime and, and even sometimes music and punk rock, maybe, and and all these different things. You saw posters on the wall that were all very different. And, yeah, there was definitely at a point like hip hop and, and it was they weren't just comic book stories. They were geek hubs. They were these cultural spaces where the quote, unquote inside kids, if you will, who maybe weren't out playing soccer or football, although, you know those kids would come to you know it was again for everybody, but for the most part, it was people who'd go and spend their Saturday inside, for good or ill, whether that's healthy or not, it's just what we would do and sitting there and talking. It was, it was like a social club for people. Weren't just into comics, but were into what we would maybe call pop culture iconography. And I loved it, not to mention I'd be there with the older kids. And I always thought about this too, and it's true, they were probably the kids who, when they would go back to high school, would get, you know, the stuff kicked out of them, or would would not really be, you know, looked at by the opposite sex, necessarily, maybe in a positive light, or who maybe would feel a little bit bad about themselves. But boy, when they were in that comic book store, they were the kings and queens of the scene. You know, they were who we all looked up at, like, wow, you, you've, you've read every single copy of this, or, you know, who all the characters and this is, and that, you know, this was, you got to remember, before social media, before the internet really took off. So we had people, I remember even thinking at the time, like, boy, that guy's kind of, you know, a little bit nerdy or squirrely, or overweight, or this, that or the other, and Pimply and that kind of thing. But, like, we would look up to him, or, yes, in some cases, her and and would just be so impressed with their knowledge of this that or the other their passion for it. And a lot of them would love to talk about it and pontificate the way that I'm doing, even right now. And you kind of knew, though, like these people are not exactly getting picked first for, you know, the dodgeball team in PE when they're going back to junior high school or high school. So it was a place where people who maybe didn't feel as confident or didn't get that spotlight on the outside world got it in that world, and we all kind of knew it even then, and certainly looking back on it now. And so that's why I would say the comic book store, very much like the video store and the record store, you know, but just because there weren't places to sit, you didn't really hang out there. You weren't exactly gonna, like, you know, go and get lunch and bring it in there, as you would an accomplished or you really could spend all day in the comic book store and hang out there, and things would be going on, and people be talking and playing games, and they were clubhouses, and still are kind of to this day. You know, I think that they were little social clubs that way, and very inclusive, I found, at least, and very much for all different kinds of people to come and skateboard kids, and as you said, hip hop kids and punk kids and hippie kids. And people would come and experience that. And that's a lot of what Rizza talked about, frankly in his afterward, without much prompting, because he knew that and saw that too. And the one other thing I'll say, this was in the podcast, not in our book, because it was one of the shows through Sirius XM. But we did have, I think it was, yeah, Daryl McDaniels from Run DMC, talking with, I think, Method Man on one of the Sirius XM shows, where it's them talking about Marvel stuff and talking about the connection between comic books and hip hop and even the idea of, like an alter ego, like a different identity, you know what I mean? And I'm like, M's using that. And they talked about how, you know, that was that a lot of that came from the comic book world, and it was kind of being this alter ego and this other person. And there was a real discussion about that in our podcast. Certainly, that's been talked about in a lot of other places too, absolutely. Yeah, so I think there is a lot of crossover between those worlds. And you know, my friend Christine Gaines is a pop culture historian also, and writes a lot about black stories. He Himself is black, and he's written a lot of books on black, movies and things like that. I interviewed him for my podcast and for my book, and he talked about that too, where there is an element of, you know, he felt like like a bit of a misfit. He felt like a bit of an outsider in certain places he'd go, or in certain communities, you know, because he was a person of color and he could connect with some of these characters and these comic book stories, or in these science fiction stories, of feeling a bit like an outsider, feeling a little different from the quote, unquote norm. And you know, for him, that's a big part of all this connectivity as well. And I've certainly heard, you know, other people from those communities, even me, as a Jewish person, growing up in a very um. Born Again, Christian, very Mormon community. I definitely felt that growing up, you know, or people from the LGBT community, I think that's why a lot of they connected early on to science fiction and to comic books and to things like Rocky Horror Picture Show, which is not explicitly of that community at the time, at least, but there's elements of it in there, and now it's kind of revisited as this great cultural work of new queer cinema, or even of early queer cinema in a real way. You know, even though they were never really that explicit about except in small little parts of the movie and that kind of thing. So, you know, it's about bringing together the misfits, bringing together people who at least feel like outsiders and feel marginalized and feel disenfranchised. As I said, the kid who maybe, outside the comic book store gets beat up, you know, after school, or isn't able to go on a lot of dates, but in the comic book store, man, he or she is, you know, a Titan, just because they're a little bit older than everybody else, so they know so much about Star Wars, or whatever it might be. And, you know, that's, I think, what a lot of this

is about. Oh, wow, yes,

Rodney  1:01:02  
I love it. Yeah, that's that's absolutely that encapsulates it. So question for you, last question, you've had many experiences, and you continue to have experiences, and I look forward to living vicariously through you and those that you

Mathew  1:01:21  
want to live vicariously through my bank account. But that's for another podcast.

That's, that's, that's, that's all of us. Mathew, that's all of us. Let's

Rodney  1:01:30  
not even get into that, because it is about the things that we do that really matter. Yeah, and, and, and, because it isn't about inspiration, what do you tell someone who may be listening to this podcast, who has children themselves, anyone, sorry, a loved one around them, that that is considering this pathway and this similar pathway? What? What one piece of advice would you give them?

Mathew  1:02:01  
I'm gonna answer that as a question, as an answer and a half, because I have to, and I know that this podcast is presumably supposed to be pretty positive and optimistic, and I want to stay on that track.

Rodney  1:02:15  
I really, Mathew, don't just see that. See that's predisposing.

That's like, not, not necessarily, okay. Well,

Mathew  1:02:20  
that I'll just that. I'll just inspiration. Is inspiration? Yes, when people ask me that question, the first answer I always give is, don't, because it it really leads to a life that's a bit more complicated and challenging than one might expect, especially even if you are at my level or the level of certain friends of mine, who are much more successful than I, quote, unquote, who've won awards and have done this, that and the other, and are sitting there going, boy, I'm in my 40s now, or I'm in my 50s now, or even older, and I'm really worried about things like retirement. I'm really worried about things like, you know, having my house taken away, or taking care of my family, or being able to have a family, that kind of thing. So I do have to say, I do have to say it is much tougher. And I would say even these days than maybe before, for certain reasons, what we were just talking about about distribution, exhibition and whatnot. So a lot of times you really do say, you know, don't, or more practical, you know, make sure you know that you are maybe majoring in if you're going to college, or make sure that you are making sure that you have some skill sets that will have some real ROI when you get out of college, or that that you can quote, unquote, fall back on or even be doing while you're making your art, you know. And it doesn't have to be accounting, it doesn't have to be computer programming. I mean, it could be things like marketing and publicity and things of that nature. I mean, that's a lot of what I do or try to do, you know, to help pay the bills when I'm in between projects, or whatever it might be, and I've been able to do that fairly successfully. And I've had been able to do that for my own projects, which is very important. PS, kids, just because you're working with Penguin Random House, just because you're working with Sirius XM, or just because you're working with Sony Pictures, does not mean they're going to get you all the publicity thank you that you should be getting. So a lot of that you do have to do yourself, and you have to make those connections and know how to do that, put together query letters and whole deal. But beyond that easy answer of don't, because it leads to a life that's much more difficult, challenging. I think people expect I would say that, and I've said this before in some of my guest lectures. You said it earlier. Rodney, why do I keep going? Why do I keep doing it despite the fact that I have, over the years, and rightly so, become rather bitter and jaded and and pessimistic and and cynical about the way that the industry, the creative industry, works. Really a lot of industries work these days because I can't not. And I would tell somebody that if this is what you're supposed to be doing, if you're really ready to go to college for four years and spend that time and spend that money, or just head out to New York. La or Chicago or Denver or Europe or wherever you think you're supposed to go to really get going with your creative work and your art and your life. And you're gonna work the three jobs and sleep on couches or whatever it might be, make sure and you know the way that you know when you've fallen in love with somebody, the way that you know at a point who you are as a person and what your identity is, even though that's always changing and growing and evolving, hopefully. But this is for people I feel that can't not do it. And look, I like messing around with my ukulele, but I'm not a ukulele player. I'm not gonna go and perform ukulele somewhere, even little jams and things. So it's just not my thing. You know, I like just messing around with it while I'm watching a movie or something and that kind of thing. You know, there are people who love shooting hoops, but no, they're not professional basketball players. There are people who love riding their bike, but know they're never going to, and they don't really even want to do, you know, go to, you know, the Tour de France, you know. And there are people who enjoy writing in their journal and writing little short stories for themselves or that kind of thing, but know that, just as the people seeing in the shower are not necessarily going to go and cut an album The next day, that that might not be for them, for people like me, for other friends of mine, I think even maybe in some ways, people like you, Rodney, and you personally, you can't not do it. And even though, especially over the last few years, things have been, truthfully, quite challenging for me in a lot of ways, and sacrifices made and money lost and money not gained, and that kind of thing I can't stop because I can't not do it. And other friends of mine, you know, we talk about it as the hamster wheel. Whatever you want to say, we just kind of say, we always say, this will be our last movie. This will be our last documentary. This will be our last I can't do it anymore. It's way too hard. It's it doesn't lead to anything else. And then before we know it, we're pitching another idea, or we're working on another idea, or something comes our way, and we go, oh, man, that sounds awesome. I'm going to do it. And, you know, there we go, working on something for another two or three years. So I would tell people, and I have told people this, and some people it's turned them off. It said, You know what? Maybe this isn't for me. And I go, good, at least, you know, at a younger age, and at least you're not going to spend that time and money. That time and money and energy, maybe on film school or getting your MFA or going, you know, all the way out to New York, working five jobs that you hate, just so that you can get by while you're working for five years trying to become a stand up comic, realizing maybe it's not really for you. I do think that there is something to and Fran Lebowitz and Tony Morrison had a really interesting discussion that's online, where they talked about this too, where there's just a point where you've got to say, is this really for you? And if, if it's not, don't kill yourself to do it. You know, you know, if you're ready to start working toward getting in the NBA, or if you're just someone who really likes to shoot some hoops sometimes in the weekend. You know, you know, if you know, once,

Rodney  1:08:04  
trust that

Mathew  1:08:05  
voice, inner voice, for your stuff. And I think that will make thing, and I think that will answer that question. And the answer is, if this really is for you, you're not asking that question. I you know, this is just what I've always done since I'm five years old. And I can't really do many other things, and I can't not do it. I was writing novels before there was anywhere to do anything with those novels. I was never going to get them published. I wasn't going to put them online. There was no such thing at the time. I just did it. I was making little radio shows with my friends in the garage, and we wouldn't even listen to the tapes afterwards. We tape over the same tape over again. We just did it. It was just something that we did. And I do believe, and some people might disagree with me. Some people might think what I'm saying is very elitist, or whatever. It's just what I believe is that, you know, and it's the same thing with being a doctor, I would think, or being maybe an accountant, being maybe an engineer, being a football player, being anything, being a priest or minister, Rabbi. You know, you either have that calling or you don't. It might take some people a little bit longer to hear it, or it might take some people a little longer to realize they're not hearing it. But I think in the end, that my best advice would be, if this isn't for you. Maybe it's not for you, and if it is, you will know, because you won't not be able to do it. It doesn't matter if you've gotten to a good film school. It doesn't matter if you got into Sundance or not. It doesn't matter if you keep getting rejected from your from your from publishers for your books. You just keep doing it and doing it and doing it. You wake up and you want to do it. This is not hard for me. The production is not hard for me. I just do it. It's what I do when I'm scared, it's what I do when I'm bored, it's what I do when I'm really stressed out. It's not like, Oh man, I have so much going on right now. I just don't have the time or the energy to write a screenplay. I don't have the time or energy to write an article. It's like, No, exactly. Opposite. I've written some of my best stuff when it's like, I'm freaking out about everything else in my life and dealing with some serious things. This has even just happened recently, and it's like, the way I deal with that is writing a streamline. The way I deal with that is maybe writing a book, or writing a comic book or whatever. And you know what, once in a while, some of them get picked up and go, and I can look at that, go, Hey, I wrote that while I was going through one of the worst experiences of my life, rather than the worst experience of my life, was keeping me from writing it. It was exact opposite, and that's just how I feel. And I think people, musicians, athletes, really great doctors, really great lawyers are the same way, like they just love it so much they can't not do it, and it propels them to do it even when they are very distracted by other things going on in their life. Because that's like, okay, I can steal away a little bit of time to go and get some writing done, or I can steal away a little time to do some programming on the computer, or to go and play basketball, just because I have to right now. I have to go for a run, I have to go to the gym, I have to go for a swim. I have to, you know, do some architecture work or design, because I just need to, like, do something that's going to make me feel good. I think that's very important. And I think that's what I would tell, and have told, especially younger people, that if you have that drive, you won't have to ask about it, like, Is this for me or not? You just are doing it, and maybe you'll make money at it. Maybe you won't, maybe you won't, maybe you'll get published, maybe you won't, maybe you'll get produced, maybe you won't, but you will keep doing

Rodney  1:11:28  
it. And folks, that is why I have a good time with Mathew Klickstein. So this is awesome. I encourage everyone who's who's listening to check out Mathew's website. Check out things he's written, the things he's produced. It is, you're in for a journey. You're in for an experience, and I think you it is worth it. So Mathew, thank you for sharing time with us. This has been possible. Absolutely awesome. Appreciate it.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai