Kathleen Clawson - Artistic Director, The Dayton Opera

Rodney is joined by Kathleen Clawson, the Artistic Director for the Dayton Opera, about her journey from New Mexico to Ohio, what her "core principles" are, and how they have helped to shape her life and career.

Follow Kathleen Clawson on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/operaclawson

Learn more about the Dayton Performing Arts:
https://www.daytonperformingarts.org

Transcript

Kathleen Clawson  00:02

So people ask me, Do I miss do I miss performing? And I don't, really, I loved it. And actually, you know, you've seen me give speeches and things, I guess I'm still performing. Really,

Rodney  00:18

you're a great show woman. So I mean, you are, and it's lovely,

Kathleen Clawson  00:24

but, you know, I had a good run as a singer, and I really love doing it, but I love what I'm doing now.

Rodney  00:42

Hello, everyone. This is Rodney veal. The host of Rodney veal is inspired by podcast, and I'm super excited this morning to have a conversation with Kathleen Clawson. And Kathleen is the artistic director of the Dayton opera, which is a part of the Dayton Performing Arts Alliance. Full disclosure, I am on the board of DPAA, but I what I love about having Kathleen on as a guest is we interviewed her, her, her not even her first week on the job for the art show and think TV and cet connect and so. And you know, I've got, I've got the had the joy of watching her work her magic and turn Dayton opera into really, honestly, a really fun and exciting artistic and theatrical experience, because she is full of life and joy, and it's just just fun person to be around. So Kathleen, welcome to the podcast. Thank

Kathleen Clawson  01:39

you, Rodney, it's great to be talking with you again. Awesome,

Rodney  01:43

not considering that we just met yesterday, right? Absolutely. Kellie, what I love is like I said, it is truly heartfelt, because I, you know, I, I, I just think you just have brought such a joy and just a you are, you have are brimming with ideas. But I thought, Oh, my God, where did this all begin? And it kind of feels like this is your life. But where, where did this begin? Like, were you? What were your ambitions as a child? Was it always music?

Kathleen Clawson  02:19

Well, my family is very musical. I grew up in a family that music was an important part of it. My My parents moved from Birmingham, Alabama to Albuquerque, New Mexico in 1956 for my father to take a job at Sandia National Laboratories, but he was an amazing singer his whole life. His dad was a pianist. His family sang, my mother sang, when, when we would travel across the country in the UN air conditioned car between Birmingham and New Mexico every summer. All we did as a family was sing. So that's always been a part of my life. But because my father, it was his avocation, it was his joy, I never really considered it as a career. I studied languages in high school. I really, really love I studied French, and I love languages. It's one of my big passions. I also studied theater. I my actual ultimate, like, my first goal was to be a musical theater performer. Yeah, but I started school. I started school, really as a French major, but quickly changed that to trying to get a musical theater degree. And 103 years ago, when I was an undergraduate, there were no musical theater degrees, so I studied both music and theater, and now all those skills that I learned taking all of the tech classes and stuff really are paying off. Who knew

Rodney  04:10

absolutely that's all but so I ended up

Kathleen Clawson  04:13

getting an undergraduate. I quickly realized that both theater and music wanted my soul, and since I only had one soul to give to my undergraduate degree, I decided to cast my lot in into music. And it's that journey has been really, really wonderful. The Long story short, I married very young, and my husband said, if you're going to be on the road all the time, home needs to be someplace I want to be, and that's here in Albuquerque, so we always made our home there. But I've traveled all over the world, and one of the places I traveled was to Dayton to be a soloist with the symphony. When was this? That was in 19. 1999 oh my gosh. And that was when the symphony was still performing in Memorial Hall.

Rodney  05:06

Oh, that's a flashback,

Kathleen Clawson  05:10

um. And I remember, Truly, this is going to sound weird, but I remember walking around the city while I was there for the rehearsals, and I literally thought I could imagine living here Dayton felt so much like Albuquerque. To me, a city that's passionate about the arts has a big Air Force Base, has a big university and a really warm, welcoming community. And then now look here we are.

Rodney  05:46

Oh, my God.

Kathleen Clawson  05:50

So I made my I made my career as a singer, a classical singer, actually a little bit of musical theater too. We can come back to that. Oh, absolutely no, I am. Then I said, I married young, and it when I was, when I was about 40, actually, I said, Gosh, I'm forgetting something. What is it? Oh, children and and fortunately, everything worked out really well. We had a beautiful son, and I decided I wanted to travel less and be home more. So the University of New Mexico offered me a position well, offered me to teach voice in the for a class in the theater department. Okay, so they said we'd like you to come for two weeks and teach voice to the actors. And I said, Well, that's not how learning to sing works. I'm here in town. Why don't you have me come once week for this semester? And I did, and it was a huge success, both for me and for the singers, for the students, we loved it. And they then asked me, they said, we have this class on the books called Musical Theater Workshop hasn't been taught in a really long time. Would you like to teach it? And I said, Well, what is the class? And they said, anything you want it to be. And I said, I am there. So I started teaching the class. And the first semester there were 14 students, and the next semester there were 40, wow. We realized there was a need that had not been met, and started doing that. And it was really, really fun. And then I realized, if those students were going to really learn what they needed to learn, they needed to be on stage. So although I had not directed before, I directed a production of The Pirates of Penzance because I knew it really well, and it had lots of roles for young people, and it was free, you know, public domain. I could, I could do it. So the risk was not so great, and I realized I had more fun than I ever had as a performer, right? Because if you're the director, you are never

08:11

bored. That's so true. You're not off stage

Kathleen Clawson  08:15

waiting for something, somebody to call you on. You were involved the whole time, and I love doing it. And I had performed at the Santa Fe Opera at this point, and I had some of my colleagues from the opera come down and see the production. They said, You know, you're really good at this. So they hired me to work with the apprentice singers. And for the last 22 years, every summer, I have directed scenes for the Santa Fe Opera. And through my context, there other people in the country saw my work as a director and started hiring me. I came to Dayton, and I think it must have been 2007 to sing with the symphony again. And Tom came backstage and said, We, you know, we'd really love to have you sing with Dayton opera. And I, I said, you know, I am transitioning from that part of my career, sort of leaving my career as a singer behind, and really throwing myself fully in stage direction. So here are some people that you've hired that I have worked with. Call them, check check me out. See you. See what they say. And he called me the next day and hired me, offer me the job to to direct the elixir of love in 2008 okay? And after that, on opening night of that performance, he came up to me, said, which of our operas would you

Rodney  09:43

like to do next year? Wow, that's a compliment.

Kathleen Clawson  09:47

It was a compliment and and then invited me back to direct a show every year after that, when it came time for him to retire. The search committee invited me to come talk to them about sustainability and what other companies were doing in the country, and how to how to build audience. And so I they brought me out. I, you know, I prepared, because you do that. And while I was in the midst of this presentation, one of the search committees said, Is this a job you'd be interested in, which, frankly, I had never even considered, really, you didn't consider. I had never considered it because, you know, my my path really is, this was not what I planned. None of this was I, you

Rodney  10:41

know, I call that, you know, it wasn't on my bingo card of life. So

Kathleen Clawson  10:47

okay, and I said, Well, tell me what this job is. And they did and and then two weeks later, actually, they just decided to offer me the job that it was better to have a candidate. They knew that they trusted, that knew the organization could come in, you know, running. And let's let me just let this sink in. That was January of 2020,

Rodney  11:15

yes, Oh, that's right. So I,

Kathleen Clawson  11:19

I, don't, I said yes, and then the world changed, and it absolutely did, and I still wake up every morning, usually saying I am the right person for the job right now. Wow, I believe, well, you know, you've probably heard me say it a million times. I have, I have some core beliefs. And the, the first one actually, is that I believe singing can change the world. Wow, yes. And I believe that because it changes us. Yeah, both. I mean, physically, it changes. It makes, it makes a physical change, you know, as a dancer, oh, the act of doing it changes

Rodney  12:07

Absolutely. And I, you know, and that's, and I love that you have these principles keep going. I'm like, yeah. And

Kathleen Clawson  12:13

so then, just as I believe that that's primary, I also believe that every voice is important. And by that, I don't just mean singing voice, but I mean the spiritual, the voice within you, what you have to say, every voice is important, and the stage should look like the world. Wow. So those are the principles that I use to guide what I do, both in selecting material and casting in actually in life. I know those are, those are the principles that I try to live by. Wow,

Rodney  12:56

and well, it shows, do you know? So that's why i my i have a big smile on my face, because it's like every time I have a conversation with you, Kathleen, and every time you've talked about the opera and you've talked about Dayton and you talked about the DPAA, it's always been from a sense of joy, and now I you know tying it to these core principles makes The most sense to anyone who is experiencing the opera, the Dayton opera currently that that's coming through. Do you know, saying, like, I feel it great, and I can see it, and I'm seeing it manifested. And so I it's one of those interesting things about because you talked about, we talked about, you know, it's not on your bingo card of life, and these opportunities. And one of the things about inspiration, this podcast inspired by is hopefully that people understand that it's you don't necessarily. It's not intentional, like they're like, I am going to be this thing. But rather, here are these opportunities. And so it seems to me like you just have that kind of personality and your core beliefs, that's

Kathleen Clawson  14:03

just open. I think that that's true. I mean, I never, I never cared about fame, ever that's not important to me. I just care about connection, just really, I think that at the at the core opera is storytelling. That's really what it is. And actually in life, I think that's, that's our connection, is telling our stories. That's what we're doing. That's what you do. My way of doing that is a kind of, let's just say, bigger way than most people,

Rodney  14:39

kind of more epic way of telling stories. I get

Kathleen Clawson  14:43

my tiara here, absolutely I love it, but I actually have my my tiara on. Oh, sweet. I

Rodney  14:51

love it. I love it. I love it. Yeah,

Kathleen Clawson  14:53

I mean, I believe that the experience of opera. Because of storytelling through music has, as I said, just because singing has this way to sort of get to us physically. I mean, listening to singing, listening to music, we experience opera in a different way than you experience a theater piece or or even

Rodney  15:22

a dance piece, but, or a dance piece, well, I mean, I don't know, I I'm going to talk about that,

Kathleen Clawson  15:28

um, because it's this synthesis of all the art forms. There's the music, there's the orchestral music, the singing, the words, the visual spectacle of it, um, it's, I do a lot of upper education. I am, I'm so passionate about education, my husband actually thinks that at my core I'm a teacher. That's, that's really, that's what I that's what I am, that's if I'm, if I excel at anything, that that's what it is. And I, I try to bring people to the art form by pointing them to different things to look at, especially if you've never been to an opera before and are a little afraid of it. It's like, well, guess what? It's just music and storytelling. Now, if it's in a foreign language, that's another layer to deal with, but essentially, the music that you're hearing tells you what you need to know, even if you don't know what people are saying absolutely, and it

Rodney  16:37

tells you what to feel

Kathleen Clawson  16:38

absolutely. Yeah, the stories of most operas are not that complex because they have to leave room for the music most of the time the there's not a lot of words. There's words that are repeated because the composer gives different meaning, or will highlight words throughout a song or ARIA, as we say, so it's easy to go and just, you could go and just close your eyes right experience it. Or I always say, you know, if listen to just the orchestra, listen because the orchestra is a character in opera. What the orchestra is telling you. There's so many different ways to experience the art form. I also believe something that I know that you love. I believe that there's many entry ways, entry points, into the into the art form, yes. So American musical theater came out of European operetta that was that came to this country. Operetta came to this country, and musical theater came out of that tradition. So there this really just like stepping, not even into a different room. It's just like taking a step to the side to between musical theater and opera. So I if people say, you know musical theater. It's not opera. I feel like saying hey, you know the history well, also, I always think so everybody here I now know about learning about football.

Rodney  18:34

Well, welcome to The Friday Night Lights of the Midwest. Yes,

Kathleen Clawson  18:37

everybody has their team, and I understand if your team operate your team musical theater, but they're both football, you know, so Well, that's a weird analogy about that,

Rodney  18:50

because it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's in the same arena. Maybe I didn't complete

Kathleen Clawson  18:57

that pass, but anyway, so yeah, I should never use sports analogies. But anyway, you're

19:04

fine. You're all good. But so I've,

Kathleen Clawson  19:08

I've incorporated musical theater into the programs that I am choosing for Dayton opera, partly just to bring people in the door and to make something that they might think is scary, a little less scary. Here's something that you know, come try this. Oh, listen to these voices. Aren't they amazing? Wow, you might want to try this. So it's just a way to invite people into the conversation. As it were,

Rodney  19:37

I love the fact that you do that, because what I was going to say is that a lot of people don't understand. Is that, when I went to grad school and at The Ohio State University, I have to say the otherwise, I will get, you know, hate mail, like so ridiculous that one of the classes that we were taught about incorporating you. Computer design and technology within our performances. The class was taught with the notion that opera was the first multi disciplinary art form, and that and that we were looking at operas and how they were originally, first staged and produced to figure out how to incorporate different technologies. And a lot of technologies were invented for theater because of opera. Oh, yeah. So I was like, my head was my mind was blown and and so I think that was like the start of my pathway to kind of really appreciating opera. That's one of the things that I think demystifying opera, because a lot of people see it from a distance, but you gotta get in there and experience it.

Kathleen Clawson  20:49

Well, the art of being an opera singer, or the journey it's it's an art that is passed down from artist to artist. Yes, everybody goes to the university. They get take classes, they learn sort of fundamentals. But just as is the case, I think in any profession, the real work happens on the job, OJT and working side by side with professional singers. You see what they do, you learn a lot. So we have the Dayton opera artist in residence, and I care so much about nurturing the next generation of artists. I had incredible mentors who who showed me the way, and I feel beyond obligated. It's my it's my life. Part of my life's journey to my purpose is to share what I have learned from my mentors with the next generation and uplift them and try to help them navigate this sometimes really difficult career, helping them realize that there's a play I believe this with my whole heart, there is a place for all of us in in the world of the arts, and you don't have To, you know it does not have to be your job for you to express yourself in in these heart forms we have the Dayton Opera Chorus are mostly people who just live here in Dayton, many of whom actually studied music in school. They did that, but because it's challenging to make a career in the art form, there they have other jobs, but that's like my dad. They had their their full time job doing whatever it is that they do. But in fact, they are singers and artists. To me, actually, that's one of the big reasons why I fell in love with Dayton opera is I fell in love with the Dayton Opera Chorus. I love these really. You know, I've been coming here since 2008 and I kind of joked that it was like I had two families, wow, family in New Mexico, and I had my family in Dayton. And it's still, it still feels that way. I mean the community here, the people that I know here, I have really deep and wonderful friendships. Because I'm just going to say salt of the earth here in Dayton, salt of the earth, people who take care of you and take care of each other. It's amazing,

Rodney  23:38

absolutely, and you know, and what, what you brought you know, coming to the family, which la familia, is that this is, like I said, the joy, I mean, the fact that your your passion for the art form was so evident from our conversation the first time I met you that I was just Like, Oh, this is just a ray of sunshine and joy, and I'm gonna and you know you, you really started a journey for me to kind of embrace adding these perform, adding the opera performances to my life. And, well, you saw that for me. You, you kind of opened my eyes up even more well.

Kathleen Clawson  24:22

So you're you. You were there to see Charlie Parker's yard bird? Yes, I did, and that changed me. So the my first season as Artistic Director designate was 2020, 2021, right? And that was the season that had to be completely rethought it that was, was to have been Tom bexton's final season, and we were doing a world premiere of an opera about Catherine Wright to culminate his his season. And he was doing Don Giovanni and La Tarja. And it was, you know, supposed to be a big celebration. And then I. COVID, then we couldn't be together. So from New Mexico, with people here, we produced a piece called postcards from Dayton. I was the producer, actually for that from Albuquerque,

Rodney  25:18

really? Oh my gosh, okay, and

Kathleen Clawson  25:21

so that we could, so that there was something for our audiences to watch. And it was pretty, you know, rudimentary. I'm going to say it was kind of like music video, but if we shot it at, at the cemetery and at the Dayton at the Masonic center, and at the at the arcade, which wasn't even completed yet, right? And then on the Schuster stage. So we did four different locations, locations showing about date, beautiful Dayton, along with operatic music. And I was really proud of it. And it was, in some ways, it was sort of a little bit of my, my heart in Dayton, these wonderful places. It's such a beautiful city. And then then there were two then, because this community is so amazing, and this organization and its supporters were just all in we were we were able to do two live performances of opera when no one in the country was doing anything. Wow, yes, that year, they did a socially distanced version of Don Giovanni and La scraviata. And there could be because of social distancing, there were less than 200 people in this 2000 seat theater, but we did it, and that the musicians got paid. You know, we kept there was live music happening when no one else in the country was doing it, and we moved the premiere of finding right to my first season, because world premiere deserves to have

Rodney  27:09

and an audience, and it really did. It deserves that. Yes. So

Kathleen Clawson  27:12

my first season started out sort of, you know, it was different, because we did elixir of love and, and, and then we ended up with finding right? So my first full season doing the what I'd planned, started out with Charlie Parker's yard bird, and I was so excited to be able to bring Martin buchare at Yellow Springs, native.

Rodney  27:37

Yes, it was fabulous. It was fabulous people, by the way, is state

Kathleen Clawson  27:42

and opera debut, wow, in a story, as I said. And when I mean that everybody's voice is important, what I mean is that everybody's story is important, yes, and that I, we've, I've got to reflect my community in the stories that I'm telling. And the really great thing is that contemporary opera gives me lots of opportunities to do that, and it you know, I with only four things that I'm going to produce every year. I know not everything is going to be everyone's cup of tea, but I hope that it's a menu of things that everybody's willing to try. My mom always said, just try a bite. Just taste it, at least just it. Don't make a decision without having tasted it. Don't say I don't like that until you've come and tried it, because, guess what, you might just love it.

Rodney  28:43

I you know, and I did

Kathleen Clawson  28:47

really proud of that. I'm looking forward to have Martin back. Oh,

Rodney  28:50

that'd be fantastic. Yeah, yeah. Well, it'd be super fancy. And I love how you talk about that, like, take a bite, because I think that sometimes we get so siloed in our beliefs. We have our loves. I mean, I will always have my passion and love of dance. It's always going to be that's I tell people at the station like, Yeah, I'm going to start with dance. You know, it's always going to be a thing. But I'm also very curious about other art forms, and I feel really strongly. You can't make dance in a vacuum. You can't make art in a vacuum. Can't make music in a vacuum. You can't make you have to bring your all of our worlds. Need to come into it, and our experiences in the world. And when you talk about contemporary opera, there seems to be this resurgence of new voices and people that are willing to do this new work, and it's thrilling, personally, artistically, I just want audiences to take a chance on those things

Kathleen Clawson  29:49

absolutely and and I feel like there's we can even bring that to the old works as it were. You know. Um, look at a new way to tell it. Tell one of the classic opera pieces that's that's my hope is to to re, refresh, kind of reboot some of the, some of the classics in the repertoire. I'm so one of the really amazing things about our organization, the Dayton Performing Arts Alliance, is that it is the opera, the ballet and the Philharmonic under one umbrella, and that we truly collaborate in a very exciting way. Especially, oh Brandon is so amazing. Oh,

Rodney  30:34

oh, what he sings your praises. By the way, a lot of love, lot of love because

Kathleen Clawson  30:41

as well. So it's really exciting to be able to collaborate with the artistic directors in this big organization to create art that we wouldn't, that other companies can't do. For example, this season, we're going to end with Verdi's Aida, sort of the grandest of all grand opera. Talk about multimedia experiences. It's going to have everything. No elephants. People always ask, I'm just going to say, right now, no elephants. That's not what the story is about. And we're going to have the full Dayton ballet and dc, dc,

Rodney  31:24

fabulous, often,

Kathleen Clawson  31:26

often, the ballet in Aida is either not there at all, if you if a company doesn't have access to the ballet, or it's lessened truncated, but We got we're gonna have all of it, and we're gonna have a lot of people on stage, again, trying to do my best to represent the whole community, people that maybe don't know. Aida, it's set in ancient Egypt, and a story about a war between Egypt and Ethiopia, and the Princess of Ethiopia has been captured in during this war and is in Egypt and is a servant to the the princess of Egypt. And because it's an opera, both women are in love with the same man. You know, it's not gonna work out well for somebody, at least.

Rodney  32:35

But always in a love triangle, there's no love of triangles don't work people, just

Kathleen Clawson  32:41

because of the locale and the story that's being told, I made a decision to cast all black artists in the principal roles for both the Egyptians and the Ethiopians, because that's The story of who these people are. Wow. And so people here in Dayton will hear some of the, like, most famous, well, I mean, some of the most incredible black artists working in opera today. I'm really excited about the cast. I am. I'm

Rodney  33:18

excited for you. It's like, it's a, it's a beautiful opera.

Kathleen Clawson  33:22

And our new artist, the incoming conductor for the Philharmonic, Tara Harada, will be conducting, so that's going to be, it's going to be a exciting piece. So again, it's a, it's a standard work in the repertoire, but people are going to be able to see it in a new way.

Ad  33:47

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Rodney  34:36

are walking the talk and and so we're seeing a manifestation when I saw bird and I realized how thrilling it is to tell that story in this way. And so I'm like, I'm excited for your this, this notion of telling the story of Aida with folks who represent. Truly legitimately those cultures. And, you know, without there being a suspension of disbelief, so to speak. And so it must be really thrilling to be in this place in your life where you get to do that, that walk the talk. Well.

Kathleen Clawson  35:18

So what I again, one of the things that I get to do here in Dayton is I get the big box of crayons.

Rodney  35:28

Describe that, yes, you know,

Kathleen Clawson  35:29

as a kid, when you're, you know, you either have, I used to, like, have to share the crayons with my brothers, but it's really exciting to get to color with all the crayons, and this organization brings so much to the table that we're able to create visually exciting productions. We can we can bring in really great artists. My my connection through Santa Fe, because for the last 22 years, I've worked with the apprentice program in Santa Fe I have close relationships with like, 20 years worth of young artists. And the other thing that I always say is that I've because I work with them all summer long. I don't just hear them do one Aria, going to New York and hearing one or two areas. I get to hear them sing all summer long. I get to know what they're like as people. I get to see them on stage really doing what they do. And so the people that I've been bringing in are a lot of them are artists that I've worked with in Santa Fe that I that I know them as people, and what, what I keep hearing from, from the cast, is we, we have so much fun together. We like being together. And I said, Well, yeah,

Rodney  36:55

fun. I mean, yeah,

Kathleen Clawson  36:56

cast somebody who's now not having fun

Rodney  37:00

doing their work. Yeah, you don't cast divas.

Kathleen Clawson  37:09

You absolutely have a right to be a diva about the art. Oh, if it's about the art, you have a right to put your foot down and and make demands. If it's about something like you know what color of M M's you have in your dressing room, you don't have the right for that. But if it's about the art you but you have to earn that right.

Rodney  37:36

Oh, thank you. Say that to the cheap seats.

Kathleen Clawson  37:39

Start out. As a diva, you have to earn the right. So anyway, yeah, I It's, it's, it's as like again, never born to be a stage director working in this organization is hard, hard, hard, hard, hard. It's,

Rodney  37:59

it is, but satisfying. So

Kathleen Clawson  38:04

satisfying. The work is never done. I, you know, I wake up every morning with a list that's longer than it was the day before, but wow. But it's thrilling. It's really thrilling. And, and I love this community so much.

Rodney  38:21

Oh, this is such a joy, because, you know, it has been a little Mike knows this. And our producer, we've been producing talk about love of our community. We've been producing segments on a segment on the eight four Memorial, and interviewing all the artists who built the memorial and survivors of the shooting the mass murder, basically all have held onto the belief that this community is so amazing and resilient and wonderful in spite of the darkness and that hearing you talk about the joy of offer just made me remind me like this is why we're all fighting to make this community great Absolutely.

Kathleen Clawson  39:11

Well, Robbie, it's clear that there's darkness everywhere, yeah, but we are called to be a light in that darkness, and to reach out to each other and find, I find what connects us. And I know that art has that has that capability to you know, I, I always I during the most contentious times in our country when I I do a lot of lecturing at the San Fe Opera before before performances, and I say, You know what? You're going to be sitting in a theater next to strangers, and you all will be laughing at the same jokes and crying at the same things that make people cry. If we can experience that in a theater with strangers, we should be able to come together to solve the issues of our country, because in our hearts and souls that are experiencing this art, we're the same. So instead of looking for the differences, let's look for what, what's the same. And I really believe that art helps inspire empathy. It's one of the, one of the reasons for it, it inspires empathy, and that should be what guides our walk every day? Wow.

Rodney  40:43

So I was just this question because, you know, like I said, this is inspired by podcasts. What would you tell someone who's considering walking this path and journey and opera. What would your advice to them be, as

Kathleen Clawson  41:04

a performer or as a listener, both,

Rodney  41:07

let's say both points.

Kathleen Clawson  41:12

Sure, so as a performer, as a participant in the art form, I would ask the person every day to be clear about what it is that they want and what they need, and realize that that's going to change day to day. And sometimes you set yourself on the path and you you think this is not working out for me. What am I going to do? And as I said, I do believe that no matter what you end up doing to make your money, your passion can always be this. I don't believe that your passion has to be your job. So it's good if your job doesn't crush your soul, but, but it's but your passion. Everybody needs a passion. So I guess what I would say is, everybody needs a passion. Works for both performers, participants and audience. Everybody needs a passion. And just as you said, we all have. We already, we already know what we like, at least we've experienced things that we like look at, like, just turn slightly and say, What if I What if I tried this? This might be fun. And opera is usually not something that you're going to be hooked on the first time you see it. I'm going to say, sometimes it is, but not always right, because there's so many different it's like art. There's so many different kinds of art. You know what? What? Some people are inspired by landscapes. Some people are inspired by abstract everybody likes something different. Keep trying, keep going, keep experiencing. Be open to whatever these different art forms have to offer you. And I, again, the same thing for participants. I never, ever thought this was where I was going to end up. But I am more fulfilled and feel more artistically alive than I ever have in my whole life, and I sort of, in a weird way, feel like every part of my journey has led me to this place. Well, clearly it has, because that's how roads work. But each thing was sort of a stepping stone for me to get where I am, but I would never have guessed it, because that's not, not exactly what I had planned, not exactly what I had planned. We in our family, do what they call Sixers. You know about that?

Rodney  43:52

No what it is okay.

Kathleen Clawson  43:56

Somebody asked Hemingway to write a short story in six words and see if I can get it right. Baby for sale, baby shoes never worn. Wow. Story, right? So we write Sixers in my family, not exactly what I had planned. That's my, that's my. There we go. You know? We is that a happy story, or is that a sad story? Well, that depends, right?

Rodney  44:27

All depends,

Kathleen Clawson  44:30

and but really, it is all about the journey. And it's, it's exciting. It's exciting, as I said, when I, when I took this job and the world changed, and I thought, oh, man, what am I getting myself into? I i It's, it's still exciting. Every day. It's hard, because the world has changed, and people are, you know, figuring out what they what they want to do. They. Lots of people are still afraid to get out in public, not so many. I think that's really changing, but, but it's exciting. It really is exciting every single day. And then I just want to share briefly with you absolutely sure I had a very, very important mentor in my life, whose name was Marilyn Tyler, if anybody wants to look her up on the internet, Marilyn Tyler soprano, okay, and she was a little Jewish girl from Brooklyn whose mother went to the Manhattan School of Music, whose mother wanted her to study organ, because then she'd always have a job, but she was an opera singer, and she got a Fulbright to study in Italy, and went to Europe and made her life and career there, and she lived there for a long time. It's a really her life is amazing story that sometime we can talk about. I can't wait. But she, after retiring as a singer, she worked in in Italy, in Germany, in France. She was She spoke French, German, Italian, Dutch and Yiddish. Wow. So a conversation with her was all of those language always, and it was amazing. She came to New Mexico to run the Opera Theater there at the university. And I'd, I'd long since been out of school, and she, a couple times, hired me to come and either stand in the wings in case a student couldn't make it through their part, or just to cover a part that she didn't have a student to do, and she became my teacher and my mentor, and she voices something that people don't know about the singing voice is It doesn't really mature until you're in your 30s, and the lower your voice is, the even later that it matures, so you don't, it's like, you don't have any idea really what you're going to be until you're in your 30s, which is a long time to wait to figure out, you know,

Rodney  47:17

yeah, like, if it's going to really be the thing,

Kathleen Clawson  47:19

right? And I actually didn't think mine was going to be that. I, you know, I, I, my undergraduate degree is in pedagogy, vocal pedagogy. I always thought I was going to be a voice teacher, and did teach, but I was hired to sing the Verdi Requiem, and I'd always sung much lighter things than that. And I called her, and I said, I need to, I need to get your advice on this. And she she played piano as she, you know, she listened to her mother, and she got this degree. So we sat down at the piano. She said, Come with me. And she worked me through the piece. And it was as if there was a room in my house that I'd never been in before, and we opened the door to that room, and I started singing that music, and I went, Wow, I love this room. This room is fabulous. I want to live in this room. And she helped me sort of find this voice that I'd never used before, and once I started singing that repertoire, things really started happening for me at the same time. I That's right, when I had my son was born, very close to that same time, and I started that's when I made the decision that I really wanted to be home more. And I, once he was born, I started going to auditions. And I would go to the audition, I think, oh my gosh, what am I going to do if I get this job? There's the childcare no this? I don't know, and all of a sudden, I didn't want it as much, and I'd go into the auditions and I would just sing, and I got everything, wow, because I had, first of all, I had this voice that was actually, for the first time, my real voice. And then I didn't worry about the auditions anymore. I sort of let go of it. I kind of went well, whatever happens, I'll figure it out. But I just connected to the love of singing and to the storytelling. And truly, I started just getting hired for everything that I auditioned for. And that's when I started singing Santa Fe Opera. I sing in the Dallas opera. I did this, you know, a lot of things, it's pretty amazing.

Rodney  49:44

It's all because, all because of that moment this, this where you just let go, which is what we tell dancers all the time, Kathleen, we say, once you just let go, of trying to hold on to your technique, then you're going to be an artist, right? Know, yeah, I can technically, I could tell that you're working through your rotation and turnout and how you're going up on point, but I can see when you let go, that you become an artist, yeah, and that's what you're telling like, oh yeah, we kindred spirits. Everyone in the arts. We're all these are the same stories that I hear from visual artists, writers, we're all that moment when we just let go.

Kathleen Clawson  50:25

Yep, the our journeys are not so dissimilar. Between the art forms, our tech, our techniques and our way of expressing are different, but the journeys are the same. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. It's a some people ask me, Do I miss, do I miss performing? And I don't really, I don't really I, I loved it. And actually, you know, you've seen me give speeches and things, I guess I'm still performing really. Rob,

Rodney  51:00

you, you, you're a great show woman. So it's all, I mean you are, and it's lovely, I mean, but,

Kathleen Clawson  51:07

but, you know, I had a good run as a singer, and I really love doing it, but I love what I'm doing now, and it shows Thank you,

Rodney  51:17

Kathleen, I love, I love these. I love talking to you all the time. I wish we had more time to talk outside of podcast, so we'll find that time. Don't you worry, it is coming. So thank you so much for being a guest on our podcast. Thanks for having It's great talking with you always you