Donna S. Collins LIVE!

Rodney is joined by Donna S. Collins, Executive Director of the Ohio Arts Council, to discuss her journey from theater to teaching to arts advocacy, as well as the impact of the arts in the state of Ohio. This episode was recorded LIVE at the Dana L. Wiley Gallery (feat. Mike Elsass) inside the Dayton Arcade on December 4th, 2024.

Learn more about the Ohio Arts Council: www.oac.ohio.gov

Transcript

Rodney  00:00

It's pretty awesome. Fur ball had to cough that out. You know, it's one of those moments I'm like, Oh, my gosh,

Donna S. Collins  00:07

oh, you didn't tell me there'd be editing. Yeah, there's absolute editing.

Rodney  00:11

Trust me, we are. Mike will take care of us all right. So here we go. We're close, we're close, we're good. Mike, awesome. There we go. Well, hello everyone. Welcome to Rodney. Feels inspired by live podcast with an audience, so give it up so people know it's real that it was an audience here. Super awesome. This is our third live interview with an audience, and we're so super excited to be in the space with the most fabulous person that I have known for a while. But I will not say how long, suffice to say Donna Collins is we all need someone who is going to be the guardian angel of art in the

Donna S. Collins  01:06

state of Ohio. Oh, I wonder if I could get that as my new title. You

Rodney  01:10

must. We will go make a proclamation for that. And so she has been guiding the Ohio Arts Council for well over 11 years, correct? So we're gonna get into the history and all of those good things. And we're going to talk about all things art. I've got my questions on my phone, but we I mean, Donna is just a joy to work with. And so Donna Collins, here we are. Here

Donna S. Collins  01:32

we are. Rodney field, yes, yay. So,

Rodney  01:36

super cool. Yes, give it up. Yay. She's awesome. She's super awesome. All right, Donna, I'm not gonna pull up one of those, like, let's go back in the Hot Tub Time Machine and talk about your life. But I kind of curious, for people who don't know, because you are in arts administration, but you know, we don't, you don't start off with the dream of, I'm gonna be an arts administrator. So what was your first dream?

Donna S. Collins  01:59

Well, back when I was six years old, I acted in my first theater production of little red, little blue, little yellow, and the little boy who played the lead beside me was very bossy and tried to upstage me all the time, although I didn't know that at the time, and so I decided the night, opening night, we had two plays. We had so many parents and grandparents who wanted to come that if he tried to upstage me in front of my grandma and my PaPaw, that I would take care of him,

Rodney  02:44

gangster moves. I love it. And so,

Donna S. Collins  02:47

you know, the Little Theater stage, the stage curtains opened and he got sick. Oh, I mean sick. And so I felt bad because I thought I had willed that on him so that he would not upstage me. And so I learned that night that I had more power than I deserved, and that I didn't really have to take anything from little boys, that I could be my own person. So it all started on that little theater stage, trying to figure out who I was, right. Little blue, little yellow, we made green if he had stayed healthy, maybe. But it was green all over the floor, yeah, so and so for actually, that really did happen, and after that, I just wanted to be a mom and a teacher all of my life, we played school incessantly. At my house, I talked my teachers into giving me the leftover dittos. So that'll tell you how old I am, if we had dittos, you know, you ran them off on the mimeograph.

Rodney  04:03

Oh, see, we're talking hand cranking technology here. That's

Donna S. Collins  04:07

right, it was, it was innovative then, right? So I just knew that I wanted to be a teacher. And so my dad convinced me that I probably didn't want to be a teacher, that I wanted to be a principal, because I was so bossy, right? Okay, you'll never be satisfied to be a teacher. So I went to school. I never, I was never a principal, but I did teach her head start, because that was really important to me. As I learned more about our community, family life, what some kids didn't didn't have, and what I was so fortunate to have growing up and I had my own children. Then my oldest son, TJ, was actually born on this day, and he passed away in 2010 and so. So it's because of him that I'm in the arts. He was a theater kid, Ren, and we actually sent him to the University of Cincinnati, and we paid tuition, and he did community theater. Did you hear me? He had horrible grades, but looking back, those were some of the best years of his short life, right? So at any rate, when he was in high school, he had taken all the theater courses, and he wanted to have a Tech course, Michael, this is for you. He wanted to have a Tech course, and they didn't offer it. So he because he's my son, we had a petition drive for the principal to explain to him why we needed to have tech training and that it was job creation and that this was something kids could get teaching taught in college. And so from that point on, I knew that I had a job to do for kids like him. And so at the time, I was working for the Parent Teacher Association the state PTA, and I got involved with the Ohio Alliance for Arts Education. And I know that where we met, we met, got to know Jane DeAngelo for, I don't know, couple decades, maybe almost three now, and my life changed, because all of a sudden it wasn't just about my kid, it was about everybody's kid. And so I got hooked on policy, which meant I was going to the state house doing testimony, trying to help people understand the value of sharing their stories. I didn't really know how to talk about it then, but I knew if I could convince an elected official to change policy, I could change the world. And so my work led me to be the advocate for the Ohio Arts Council's budget for 12 years, and when the director there retired, I was encouraged to apply for the job. I applied, and they hired me, and here I am today, a state employee working for you. Rodney veal, yes,

Rodney  07:11

not that I have that kind of power, but, you know, working with you, I mean, so one of the things that you know as I pull up my phone because I have my questions on there. It's like, you know, I'm just like, this, this journey, like it's, it's not, and that's one of the things that I've discovered with doing this podcast with artists and arts administrators and people who are in the arts. It's not a linear journey, but there are things that's a catalyst for you to be in this, in this position, and so you're in, you're at this high level position in the state, and I don't think a lot of people understand, people understand that Ohio is a big state. We are a very large state, and there's a lot that goes on. And I'm kind of curious about, you know, what have you seen and observed in all this time in the state of Ohio? That just astounds you that the state of Ohio is so embracing of the arts, because it is kind of unusual for a state to be this embracive of the arts.

Donna S. Collins  08:06

I think you're right about that. And we've seen, over time, way before I was at the Arts Council, that policy makers at the state level almost continuously support the arts, an example during Governor Mike DeWine term of office, our budget has risen 75% so when I came to the agency, our budget was about $14 million a biennium, and today it's 52 million. Yeah, right. But I, I would say to you, the narrative has changed because we no longer need, you know, times change. We no longer need to talk about our value, just like we don't need to talk about why the arts are important. We know why the arts are important, right? So we've got to move the conversation to how it impact the arts, impact people, how it changes lives, how education is increased, how job opportunities change, how the world changes, because we're in this place of arts and cultural heritage. And so when I think about where we've been at the Arts Council, and where going money wise, it's up and to the right. Everybody wants to see that graph go up and to the right. But we changed the narrative. It's not about us. We're state employees doing a job that the legislature empowered us to do through policy. It's telling the story of all of you. So you can't go before a policy maker and say, we need more money, give the Arts Council more money, but we can say, we want to tell you about think TV. We want to tell you about culture works. We want to tell you about. Teaching artists like Sierra Leone, we want to tell you about mayors who support the arts in their cities, and all of a sudden, it's about funding communities and people and what's good for kids in arts education, I would share with you at the Ohio Arts Council, we invest more than $3 million directly every year in arts education grant awards. Those are direct awards that doesn't count what arts organizations are doing with their operating support dollars. And quite frankly, across the nation, there are state arts councils who full budgets are less than our arts education spending there. There are per capita of nine cents a person in a state in the nation. And we're, you know, at $1 something now dollars, 62 maybe, I think, per person, yeah, per person,

Rodney  10:59

so and so that that investment in people, because I love the fact you talk about it as being storytelling, and so a lot of people have a mistaken notion that is all about the dollars. It really is more than that. It is really, like you said, one of the things that I've always been impressed by is the fact that the Ohio Arts Council, when people get excited about receiving funding. It's not because they're receiving the money. It's because they know that somewhere, someone is going to have a ripple effect, and that someone's life is going to be impacting and changing the community is going to get to a chance to embrace art and culture, and that just you have a front row seat to all of this, that's gonna be pretty cool.

Donna S. Collins  11:42

It is pretty cool and and so when I think about that storytelling, I'm telling your story, I'm gonna get to tell the stories of a couple of artists that I talked to tonight about how they're thinking about their lives and their businesses. And you know, no one wants to fund state government, but they do want to fund their communities. So as you speak to Rodney, I know you do this, you're a good advocate. As you speak to legislators, it's your opportunity to brag about think TV, about epic, about Ohio, dance, about any number of organizations you're part of, because those are the stories. We can supply the data. So that's the both, and part of it, we can talk about, when folks do their final reports, we gather data. How many people participated, how many kids had opportunities for art, said, you know, how many people were employed, how many volunteers? So we've got the data, but we want to tell your stories, and we want you to tell your story. That makes sense. It totally makes sense. And so

Rodney  12:44

one of the things I'm kind of curious because you were, like you said, you're a state agency, and you're dealing with politicians, and they are human beings. One of the things is, what I'm very curious about, is, when you're telling the story, how receptive are they to beyond the facts the storytelling, because a lot of people have been speaking belief that politicians don't care about people, and they're they're in it for themselves. They're in it to, you know, get elected and stay as an elected official. But is that your experience, or is it? Is it something different?

Donna S. Collins  13:14

It's something different. So in all my years of meeting with legislators, and we're talking, you know, many legislators. We have a 99 House members, 33 senators, the governor, the lieutenant governor, his cabinet, and so forth. And I have only had one legislator in 30 years say to me, Do we really need the arts? And you know, I tell them why? Because it was the old days. And I said, hit your wagon. Come on. We know now it's okay. So, so I looked around his office, and I said, Oh, it looks like you like NASCAR. Oh, I love NASCAR. And he's telling me all about the driver in the car. And I said, Well, who do you think does that decoration? Because that would be a language he understood. Who do you think does that decoration on that car? That's an artist. Oh, I think the corporate logos are all that's on there. Oh, well, wait, who do you think designs corporate logos? And we got into this whole thing. We talked about fashion, we talked about how you market. And all of a sudden he said, Oh yeah, I think I could vote for what you're asking for. Do you know any race car drivers? And I said, Well, my brother is a motorcycle driver, and he races. I could introduce you to him, but I don't know any guys that you know drive that car you you know that you have up on your shelf. He's the only one everyone else they so when I, I, and I don't mean this to sound boastful, because it's no, no, no, absolutely no. It's not me, it's the rodneys and the Janes and the timothys. And it is when you're able to connect to people one on one that legislators understand the story. When you're talking about Smith Elementary or you're talking about a teacher they know. And many times I discover that legislators spouses are teachers or principals or college educators. And oftentimes they tell me how they learn to play piano at church they sang in the school choir just yesterday, Kirk shering memorial service. Kirk was from Canton, and he passed away late in state yesterday, and the Speaker of the House, who will be the senate president in January, talked about how Kirk would come into his office singing a song, and Kirk, and the job of the speaker was to do the refrain, and we'll do it together. And he sang that at the memorial service. And I thought, they get the arts. They understand they're soothed by music. They use it for humor. They use it for ways to build each other up. And I find that that's more true than it's not. And often, when I testify during budget season before a subcommittee of finance in the house or the Finance Committee in the Senate, I'll start and I'll have my prepared remarks, and before it's over, they're testifying to me. Did you know that my so and so did so and so, and my daughter played the lead in and my granddaughter is in the Nutcracker, and I was like, I didn't know? And we have this conversation in public, in front of an audience, and they're doing my job for me. So life is good, right? And it's really hard for them to say no to the arts, because they know what it does. You know what it does here in Dayton and the surrounding communities, and you all have great stories to tell, and you're lucky because you have a funding partner here, even though some businesses have left the region, others have stepped up, and you have foundations. So life is good. Here you have a mayor who supports the arts. In fact, did you know Mayor Mims used to be on the Ohio Alliance for Arts Education Board, and he's a visual art teacher. So you know, there's never no never

Rodney  17:43

know if your politicians into I just found out that my representative, Congressman Mike Turner, is our representative for the congressional arts. That's right. And so it's one of those situations where I it's, I feel like our job, like my job, especially at think TV, is to dispel myths, is to kind of talk, have these conversations so that people can, you know, gain a, hopefully, a little bit better of an understanding of what it is. Is there some myth that people and speaking of that, of what people think the Ohio Arts Council is and what it actually is? Is there a dichotomy between not the elected officials, but people who apply. I think there's some people who think that it's just a cash ATM, but it's beyond that. It is

Donna S. Collins  18:28

not a cash ATM. Thank you, please. Just like culture works and other funders around the state, we are built on integrity. We have processes, we have boards that adopt budgets. We have programs that are figured out through a formula. I can't tell you the formula, but someone in my office can, and we care as much about artists as we care about arts organizations or other nonprofits who deliver the arts. And so to that point, if I could we heard from constituents artists, who said, you know, I love that you give the individual excellence award. So that's a $5,000 award for a body of work, not future work, but work you've already done. And and it's not to buy more art supplies, unless you want to, but it, it is an award that comes in the form of a grant for your work. And I think that's really important. But artists said, I'm I'm not at that place where I can give you a full body of work that I think will reach the excellence point with your panelists, because we have public panels for our applications. So our board created the artist opportunities grant program. Sounds a little familiar to some of you in the room, because we have, we have this dual. When we do it well, we share our brain trust. So we have been giving grant awards for professional artists and emerging artists. We also have the artists with disabilities program. We have capacity building opportunities, and artists are welcome to do all of those programs. And so in some states, they don't give artists awards period. And so we're lucky in Ohio that we're able to do that. And we also support artist residencies. We support artists going to conferences and doing their own professional development. So artists are really important to us. And somebody said, Well, what if you don't have enough money? What are you going to cut? I said, Well, we're always going to have enough money, and we're going to keep going up and to the right. We can't have a negative attitude. We can't work from a deficit mindset, absolutely. And they said, Well, would you cut the artist programs? I said, why would we cut the artist programs? Because nothing else works. If we don't have artists, there are no

Rodney  21:06

artists. It kind of makes no sense for there to be institutions. That's right, I've always, because I've always believed in that, because I know from my experience with culture works and with the Montgomery County Arts and Cultural District, right, that I have received those fellowship grants, and they matter. They matter because I'm sitting in front of you having this conversation, because this was not on the bingo card of life, so and so.

Donna S. Collins  21:30

So Rodney, what do you do when you get a grant award, when you've gotten a grant award in the past? So you spend the money. How do you make it work for you, and how do you help pay it forward for someone else?

Rodney  21:43

Well, I mean, first you got to do the happy dance.

Donna S. Collins  21:47

I've heard that. In fact, I've seen it three times today, three times

Rodney  21:50

a day, because the Ohio, Ohio dance got, you know, two awards fellows, so grant awards, and I'm so excited, because I'm the board president of Ohio dance, full disclosure. Yeah, I do a lot of

Donna S. Collins  22:01

things. And full disclosure, those were not from the Ohio Arts Council. No, they were

Rodney  22:05

not from the Arts Council. So that's, there's the see, there we go. Integrity matters. But for me, it's like it was, it was a validation for the work that I was doing. And then I figured out a way, because I was a career, I'm a choreographer, was to invite people into my process so that it was an opportunity to pay my friends who were dancers who needed a little pocket change. Could you work with me and we'll create a piece and we'll perform it, you know? And so it was my way of reinvesting back into what that grant dollar said was that I matter. My voice matters. I matter, and it matters in the state of Ohio. That is happening in Ohio, because a lot of people are like, Oh, if you're going to dance or be an artist, go to New York and LA. And I always say all the time, don't fall asleep on the state of Ohio. That's right, we are just as strong and vibrant. And where do you think those artists in LA and New York come from?

Donna S. Collins  23:03

They come from Ohio. That's right. I

Rodney  23:06

just say that I always have to counsel, but that's but that's giving back, and you're supposed to give back. And so it's not a I don't I don't know what that selfish mindset would ever be to be like. I just must have all the money, because it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't do anything.

Donna S. Collins  23:20

I don't meet art. I don't meet many artists with that mindset. It's always about giving back, doing the next right thing, finding a way for a young person. I would say something that's also really important is, if you're asked to provide a final report, do it on time. Write complete sentences. Yeah, I've been handed once, but write complete sentences and give us the data. Give us because if you're going to tell the story, or we're going to tell your story because you provided us information, remember, I said I'd provide the data, but I can't provide the big state data without the individual data, right?

Rodney  24:01

And there's a I was, I equated that it went into the job that I had at Sinclair Community College was that you could have the data, but you had needed the narrative, that's right, you needed that storytelling to kind of validate what we're saying. And one of the things that you know, I've been fortunate, you know, I recognize my fortune. I recognize the My gratitude is legit. And I think, from your perspective, is very legit as well. I'm kind of curious because you, like I said, You You're all over the state. I would love to air tag you so you would see how you ping and every corner of the state of Ohio, and what would surprise somebody that where that would surprise them, where art is being made and culture is being created, a place that would that says, has surprised you off the beaten path, because you've been off the beaten path. I mean,

Donna S. Collins  24:57

I really share with you, I think summer. Said, Ohio is a tiny little village in Southeast Ohio, not far from where I live. They've created a builders club. They're teaching people how to use tools that's sort of like an idea foundry or a place where you can go and make and create, but you don't have to invest in the tools. They do glass etching there. They have machine that helps you do that. They have saws. And they also have a they're working on a recording studio. So in a little town, village, it's not even a town, it's a village like Somerset, you anticipate that there would be the guys at the coffee donut shop right in the morning. But it's really all about arts and culture. It's about beautifying their downtown. It's about arts education in the school district. I think we could go to any little Burg in the state and they're making art. And you know how I know that, because you're there, because I'm there, because you're there, because I know so when I came to the Arts Council 11 plus years ago, 11 years ago, we were funding about 5355 counties a year, and I had been meeting with the legislator, House member, Ryan, I'm trying not to give all the tools away. And he goes, Donna, I love what you do, but you don't do it in my district. I said, we don't. I'm surprised. I know this person at Rio Grande. I know this person, and I know this artist. Nope, no grants in my district. So I go back to the office, I talk with my team, and I say, I need to see a report of all the counties where we have grants this year, 5353 of 88 counties. So we said, this is not the 53 County Arts Council. This is the Ohio Arts Council. And so literally, for six months, I picked up, I Googled a place and hunted for arts. So libraries have arts, churches have arts schools, have arts county courthouses have sometimes arts programs. And I would call people up and say, Hey, we have not funded the arts in your county. Are you interested in receiving some money? Sometimes they just hung up. Who is calling me? Well, Donna, I was cold calling people, and I remember in a very little small town, the gentleman said to me, give me your number. I'm going to call you back. And I said, I'm going to give you our main line, so somebody else answers the phone, right? Because I needed to be responsive to his fear of who I might be or who I was representing. So when he called back, he said, Okay, you sound legit. I've got some questions for you. We have a little theater here. It's mom and pop run. We don't have any staff. Do I have to hire people you want me to hire? I said, For what jobs? Because I kind of wanted him to get real with me a little bit, and he goes for any job. I said, No, do we have to paint the walls like your branded colors I see on your website? And I said, No, you don't. Well, what's the catch? I said, Do you pay taxes. And he goes, Well, of course, I am a good man. I pay my taxes. I said, Well, we just want to give some of the tax money back to your community that you all are paying in to the state of Ohio. And he was like, Okay, I'm going to talk to my wife and I'll call you back. And he calls back, and we gave them a small grant. He wrote a page and told us what they were going to do, I think with $1,500 Wow, $1,500 was money they didn't have, and this gentleman and his wife were paying the little it was really like a theater in a tiny house, but the community came, you know, all the time, and it was active, and they were paying the electric bill and the maintenance for the furnace and all those things and the heat. They didn't have air conditioning their cells, and all of a sudden they had money to pay those things they they were taking out of their own retirement funds or maybe their social security. I didn't get that nosy, but it changed the way we thought about how we serve constituents. So my team now we i. We work across every county in the state, and for nine years, we have funded every county in the state with multiple grant awards.

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Rodney  31:03

It's that kind of, I mean, I want our audience to understand this. It's that kind of diligence and dedication and understanding, and also an empathy and compassion. Because you have to lead with empathy and compassion when you're dealing with the arts and culture, because to that $1,500 and so some people, you know, I know people that they can spend $1,500 on a jacket or or, I mean, no, I, you know, I, and I know $15 could make or break someone paying their rents and paying for food in their home to feed their kids at this you know, $5 make us may change someone's life. I in there are people in my family that way, it's the gambit. And you, we have to understand and recognize the gambit of humanity, and you, and you do that so beautifully. And I get to watch you do it. I just, I get to, like, popcorn. It out with the popcorn and go look at Donna. Go stop. You'd be that awesome humanitarian. I mean, you're

Donna S. Collins  31:59

sweet, but here's the deal, I have a board of 15 people who are appointed by the governor from around the state. John Holt, from right here in Dayton, is on my board. They give us the authority to do this work. They could stifle us. They could change policies that would impact how we do outreach, how we travel, to get to see people and see places. And I have a team, a team of 18 people. I make the 19th, and they work so hard every single day, I could not do this work without our team. They're dedicated. We're like a family who really cares deeply about the mission. And you all would love it, because they just jump in, just like family, Kathy and Chaz, for instance, in our individual artist programs, they're doing panel meetings, I think 15 days of panel meetings in the month of December, right? That's a lot, yes, that's a lot of work, and they're willing to go the extra mile so that the board has really good information and materials for a book that goes out the fifth of January. So they're getting panel comments together, they're formatting materials. And some folks may say, well, that's just administration. No, it's a lot of work of listening and hearing and working with the panelists and being responsive to what the board wants to know. They want to know this about the organization or the artist. They want to know which counties they're from. Are they from rural places? Are they from Appalachia? A lot of Ohio is rural, and people don't think about that, those folks who live in cities, right? Yeah, absolutely. But all over the state, we have rural, rural locations where people live and make art and are culturally intuitive to what's best for their community. So I can't do this work without a board who gives us permission, and without a team that if they didn't come to work every day, I'd probably have to bring Jane DeAngelo and the others. Cannot have statewide art service organizations.

Rodney  34:15

I'm sorry I'm not giving her up. It's like, it's like a trading card.

Donna S. Collins  34:18

She's in my car today, so, but I'm her,

Rodney  34:22

I'm her poor president, and I'm gonna promise to stay here for president until I drop dead. So that's that, Trump. Sorry. I love Jane. I mean, I just adore, I love Jane Absolutely. And you get to like, this is question, because the statewide service agencies, and that's the thing, I don't think a lot of people understand that there are statewide service agencies supporting the arts, and Ohio dance is one. What are some of the other state agencies,

Donna S. Collins  34:47

the Ohio Alliance for Arts Education, so they provide professional development for arts educators and teaching artists and policy work, advocacy work for Arts Education Policy. As well as their great advocates for our budget heritage, Ohio is a statewide arts service organization. You've put me on the spot. I'm going to forget that, oh my gosh, art possible Ohio. Some folks know that formerly as very special arts or VSA Ohio, working with artists with disabilities and teaching artists, and they have programs real abilities, R, E, E, L, by filmmakers of different abilities. We're just so lucky in this state, and the work that Ohio dance does lifts up dance, but she's Jane, is also working with teaching artists, and that group of people, together with the Arts Council, have the Ohio Teaching Artist Roster. Sierra is here tonight. She is on that Teaching Artist Roster. There may be other folks in the audience who didn't get to talk to you. That's awesome things, yes, but those things serve schools. They though being on that roster is another avenue for people to hire teaching artists, whether they're a grantee of ours or culture works or anywhere else, they have a 66 something like that, teaching artist on the roster who have been vetted, who know how to write curriculum, who know How to assess student work, how to work with teachers, how to help the teachers gain their gain the skills the teaching artists have before they leave. The teachers get professional development as part of an award from us. So all of those things add up, and we couldn't do all of that work without the statewide art service organizations, and

Rodney  36:42

it's, it's one of, some of the most important work that we do at Ohio dance, because it is. It's not just funding. In the present the artist and you, you've alluded to this. It's about education. It's about moving things forward. What would you say? You know, those in the audience and those who are listening about, like, your 32nd like, not even 30 seconds, I would want to limit you on this, but you you give a speak, to give a speech about, like, why it's important. Arts education, to me, can change lives. It can absolutely transform lives. You know it talk about that because I think it's important for me to understand that how important teaching the arts is absolutely

Donna S. Collins  37:29

so we know that arts education happens way before a kid goes to school. I watched my three year old great granddaughter. Guess I'm that old? Oh, no. So we had turned on some classical music before dinner on Monday night, she was coming to visit, and I look over and she's dancing. She hasn't had dance lessons, she's dancing. And then she says, Will you dance with me? And then, pop, pop, will you dance with me? And so there it is. There's dance happening, right? They don't stop. They do the happy dance every day. The same for visual art. All you have to do is put out a piece of paper and some crayons, and it begins. You can always tell the kid who's going to go into theater, because the minute they walk into a garage, they're finding the hammer and the nails right and the extra pieces of wood, because they're ready to build something, I need to build a set. That's right, so we know when they get to school, school can either build them up or tear them down. And so kids who have an arts education learn differently. They have opportunities to understand math through choreography, right through movement. You can teach lots of things about fractions and numbers by dancing. We think about the world and we think about color and perspective, and visual art lends itself to that. But when all those when all of the arts, dance, drama, theater, visual art, music, happen, it's an integration into every other subject. They're all core subjects. They work best when they're all together. So a kid can better understand history when they're reading literature, because they can use their imagination when they hear read about this is a bad example, but if they read about the Nutcracker, they can imagine it in their minds, because they've seen it in storybooks, From stick figures to very beautiful pop up books. Pop up books, yes, and they've heard the music and they understand, and so I think that's how we get better readers, because they've kids have experienced the arts, and they also have the opportunity to think and reflect and grow. Go and make decisions because they've had all these cultural experiences. Can you imagine the kids who are reading poetry for the first time if they'd not had an understanding of rhyme or reason or the ability to memorize and and repeat back sometimes really bad stuff, you know, like, we don't say those Nursery Rhymes anymore, but it all adds up so that kids have a full and rich experience. You said 30 seconds, I went over.

Rodney  40:36

No, no, I didn't want you to have 30 seconds on that. Oh, my God, no, no, no, no, but that's, but that's, you know. So we you know, you've experienced it, you see it. But now let's translate that into artists who are working now you get to see like you're not, that you're an art critic and you're not, you know, not, not an art critic,

Donna S. Collins  40:55

but, and I like his jewelry,

Rodney  40:59

oh, duly noted. Duly noted for Christmas. Here we go. The what would you say the artist working now that, because there's challenges to being an artist and an art maker, what would you say would be an inspirational thing to them, that you observe, that they maybe need to hear as they're making their art.

Donna S. Collins  41:21

This is Donna, not the director of the Arts Council. I would love if, when artists gather in a room to work, they thought of people like Bing Davis and James Pate, who together shared a love for art making and sort of a father son relationship, if you will. There are artists all over the state, not quite as eloquently choreographed as Bing and James, but who are doing just that, helping each other, finding ways to make it work. If you come to Columbus, you should ask at the Columbus Museum of Art if you can get an appointment to go see the Amina Robinson house. Oh,

Rodney  42:10

this is creeping me out, because I'm folks. I'm doing a story on Amina Robinson as a segment of the art show, because her exhibit is coming to the Springfield Art Museum in Janis, right? And so the giddiness my job, my career, it's like to be able to produce that story. And she is being I told Bing, I was doing the story. His face lit up. He goes, she's the one person I consider a genius. Yeah, she is. That's a high compliment. And

Donna S. Collins  42:40

she was a MacArthur Genius. She was

Rodney  42:42

a MacArthur Genius. Great winner. So she is a genius. So you should

Donna S. Collins  42:46

stop by the office. We are fortunate to have two Amina Robinson pieces in our collection. Road trip.

Rodney  42:54

It's happening. But when I

Donna S. Collins  42:56

was at Amina house, I was reminded about genius doesn't come in a neat package. It doesn't have to be tidy. You walk in Amina front door and there's writing on the wall, she would have people come in and sign the walls. Hey, come on over. I want you to sign my wall and and you think it's really weird, but now we get to see who visited with her. Spoiler alert, so Amina really liked to have places where she could work independently and quietly sometimes. And so her bathroom had, I think, a bath and a half, or maybe two bathrooms, one up, one down. And so she ripped out the bathroom upstairs and made it a Writing Room. And so you walk in, and it's this tiny little room, and it has a desk and some bookshelves and all these writing utensils and these beautiful papers and scraps and the back of wallpaper, books are torn. It's just so beautiful, and I can't imagine what it would be like to have observed her in this little, tiny writing room. Her kitchen floor is covered with things. And then you know what's the clear stuff you put over epoxy to make it solid, or whatever you have

Rodney  44:24

to go. I can't wait a project

Donna S. Collins  44:27

that the Ohio Alliance for Arts Education and the Arts Council helped fund, a book called know it by art Ohio is on the bookshelf at a Minas house, and so my heart went pitter patter like, Oh my God, it was so important to her. And this book is right here on her shelf, something I had a hand in, and she's inspired so many of us, but artists. So the last thing I'll say about this is artists have to let go of their ears. Goes, you are not fighting and competing. You are working together and finding a way for the community. When I think about the project in the Oregon district, and how people came together, and the beauty that came from such pain, right? That didn't happen because people's egos got in the way. It came together because people cared, they invested in it. Artists were paid, and we have beauty out of something tragic. So try to give more than you take, and I'll guarantee you more will come your way.

Rodney  45:48

That is my mantra. It's always been my mantra. A lot of people don't know like and I just wrote an article in the Daily News. I call it Safe Harbor. My mom is my safe harbor, and I'm grateful for that sort of Safe Harbor and a potential sea of storms that she always found a way to make it comfortable for me to be who I was. And I kind of equate that with Donna, with what you and the Ohio Arts Council, do you make it safe for artists to tell their stories, share their work, it is not ego driven. You're absolutely right. You gotta give back. You gotta it's and my mom chides me on this all the time. She goes when you need to sleep. And I said, Mom, I know, I know I need to sleep, but there's a lot to be done. And so I think a lot of people mistake my intentions sometimes, and say things sometimes, even yours, for something ego driven, and it's not, I don't. I will have to decompress from this because I'm taking all this energy in, it will probably take me a couple hours, and I'll be sitting on the couch to get a process having this great conversation with Donna and hanging out with the crew people. But I know tomorrow, there's work to be done, and use the same way, Joy

Donna S. Collins  47:16

is a three letter word, so is ego, and I would take joy any day Absolutely, and at the end of the day, what what is left from the artist will change future generations, right? So it, I think it's always my hope that we leave the world better than we found it. We give more than we take all those cliche things, but they're true. They're true for me, I know they're true for you. Rodney,

Rodney  47:43

yeah, they are. They are, and this is why we have a good time. So I think that is the perfect moment in this conversation, and I'm grateful that I got to spend some time with you. I always get to spend time with her, so you guys get to share in this joy and this goodness. But take that note. It's not about your ego, folks, it is about something bigger than you. And the minute you start claiming it's about you, you are royally effed. I can't say those words because it's like one of those things I can't say so. So with that in mind, Donna, because Donna is my she keeps it real. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us. Thank

Donna S. Collins  48:32

you for having me. I love being here. Love, love the opportunity. Thank you. Thank you. Thank You to Dayton and epic. You