Artist Petah Coyne

Rodney is joined by artist Petah Coyne, who recounts her childhood experiences in a military family and her early realization of her artistic calling.

Follow Petah on Instagram: @petahcoyne

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Promo, Petah Coyne, Rodney

Petah Coyne  00:00

Well, I guess first you have to really want to do it, because if you don't really want to do it, you're never going to do it. And you have to do it because you need to do it. There's no choice but you need to do it, and you're not going to do it for any other reason than just needing to do it. And someone said to me just recently that you can't put all that pressure on your artwork to like, give you fulfilling your soul, fulfilling every part of everything you need in this world, and then make your money. And I thought that was maybe where we all went wrong. I

Rodney  00:49

Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to Rodney veal is inspired by I'm your host, Rodney veal, and today I get to have a wonderful, wonderful conversation with an artist whose visions and ideas and working in materials on a large, small scale that are just awe inspiring, that work that is that will delight you. Pause, pause. You make you think. Consider your humanity and just, it's literal, but not literal. It is. It's a dichotomy of the context of the subtext of your your psyche. There's so much going on in her work and her life, and she's just this bundle of creative energy and a force of nature, and just an awesome, awesome lady. Peter Kong, how are you? And welcome to the podcast, because I can't wait to have a conversation about materials. That's just my

Petah Coyne  01:51

jam. Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Rodney  01:56

This is so exciting, and so it's kind of, it feels a little bit like we're going down the, you know, the, I call it the Hot Tub Time Machine of life, like, let's go back into the past, but, but the reality, the reality, it all starts somewhere. Do you know I'm saying, and so with creativity and being an artist, and I in looking at your at your bio, and going through your history, you were, you, you traveled as a child. You weren't, you weren't a native daytonian, but you became a daytonian. And that's, that's, that's a very distinctive thing there. But what what talk about that journey? Because from the from Oklahoma to Dayton, that's a 12 year span. So it's like, what will you do? Like, what was your family doing?

Petah Coyne  02:41

Well, my father's military and we traveled all the time. We moved 15 times before I was even 12, and we constantly moved. It was how we lived. I thought everybody lived that way. Every six months, you pick up, you move and but the interesting thing about my family was that we never lived on the army basis. My dad, he really didn't want us to be army brats, and there were a lot of those. And I didn't know that. I just we just lived in the ethnic neighborhood of whatever country or place we were living. And in Hawaii, we lived in a Japanese neighborhood, and I, of course, was very young and didn't fully grasp what that meant. And that was not long after World War Two, and to live in a Japanese neighborhood, and my father, being a military officer, I can imagine he took so much for that, but he didn't care. He thought the culture of the Japanese people was so beautiful. And he also believed really strongly that bygones were bygones, and he wanted everything to be peaceful. And he was really hoping to be stationed in Japan and not Hawaii. Although Hawaii was beautiful, Hawaii was beautiful. And in the end, I don't know if he was glad or sad about that, but, but we lived there. And the interesting thing that he did was he was to bring all there were a lot of men that had done the baton death march that were stationed in Hawaii before they made their trips back to the United States. And these were damaged, damaged men. And he would bring them to our home on Sunday nights. And we were always told and we were small children. There. We were three, five and seven at that time. And my parents would tell us, you have to act. Right, like you're in vats of honey. They always played games with us. Made everything fun. Moving everything was fun. And they said you have to act like you're in vats of honey. That's how slow you have to move around these men. And so we thought, Oh, what fun. So we would move very because any sharp movement would upset these men, because they had just had their nerves shot. They were just shot and and so we would move very there, like snails. My mother would say, like snails, because we had lots of snails in the backyard. We had a beautiful tier Japanese garden up the hill and move so slowly. And so I loved this game to move slowly, because they would give us a little gift, whoever moved the slowest and the most beautiful. And there was one guy who I really loved, and he sometimes he would never pay, never even look at us, but I used to sit under his chair and pretend I tied a little string around my arm and to his ankle to keep him from floating up into the clouds, because I just loved him. So we played all kinds of games like that. They were, and it was, I didn't have a string. I just pretended, you know, and he was a very special guest. And I grew to really love him. He would come every he came every year for a year and a half to our house. And I, when he did look at me, his face would just shine and look at you. He really looked but he didn't look very often. And I waited for the times for him to look at us, very special and

Rodney  06:55

see that's the whole thing I always think about when I when I've talked to artists in the past, it's like these vivid memories, memory, memory, rooted in in a sense of those the senses are being recounted. It's not just the visual image, it's the sensations, it's the it's the light, it's the feeling of touch. Is the amount, it's the how your hands were moving. It was like, I was like, I you were in that sense of storytelling. And I just think, how special does your parents found a way to kind of incorporate that sense of playfulness into your everyday existence. And it, I mean, because that explains some things about going forward into your life as an art maker. I mean, did you, did you always think you as a child, you know, did you think that this was the world you were going to inhabit, or did you think you were to be a writer? Because I think I have questions about that. Do you thought, what was the thought process as a child? Oh,

Petah Coyne  07:58

always, an artist always, oh, I was two or three, I knew I would be an artist. Always, there was never a question my my parents, although they wanted us to be highly educated, but they could care less where we were educated and and because we moved so much, we changed schools constantly, constantly. And my parents would pull us out of school for any, any, absolutely, any reason. They didn't care if there was anything happening about anything. And I remember when there was a beached whale on in Hawaii and it and it was sick, and it was on Waikiki, my mother wouldn't got us out of school. Well, the nuns were incensed, like, how do you take your children? They're hardly ever here. Take them out of school. And my mother said, there's a beached whale. We have to go see it. And all my friends were like, your mother takes you out of school to go see a beach. I want your mother, I know, right. And she brought us crayons and lunch, and she said to us, now you have to write a story, and you have to draw a picture, and you have to make up the life of this whale. And I looked at her, and I said, Mom, I don't know about this whale. And she said, of course, you do. Of course you do. You go snorkeling in the ocean. You look at, look at that whale. It's old. And look at every market has each mark has a tail that is so huge. Come on now, Peter, you know. And I was like, of course, I know. Of course, I know. And I went over and started drawing, and she said, Tonight at dinner, we're all going to tell our stories, and they're going to be marvelous. And I said, Yes, marvelous. So at dinner, we all told our stories to my dad, and of course, being. The the little brat that I was. You know, all three of us told our stories, and I thought my story was the best, even better than my older brother, although maybe his was a little better, but I was two years younger than him, so I felt like, well, maybe equal. And that night, my mother said, you know, all right, after we do the dishes, I'm going to read to you a story of another man who had a whale that he was after his whole life. And I was like, oh, okay, so that night, she started to read to us, Moby Dick. Well, who reads to their children? Moby Dick at that age, right? But as soon as she started to read to us, I was like, Oh, his story is so much better than mine. I've got to do some work here, you know. And that's what they would always do to us, you know, challenge us, but then show us something better, but not that they would make us feel bad. They would encourage us and

Rodney  11:06

to kind of inspire us, and inspire you and so well. And it's a way of exposing a child without the baggage of why you're being exposed to it. Do you know I'm saying that they Yes, exactly. And so that is, you know, and these stories that I mean, like I said, when I, when I, when I interview other artists, that sense of these parents, these special parents, who just knew this is the way to do it. And that's, and I just encourage like I want to say all our listeners, if you're a parent out there, you lead by inspiration, not just by example. Inspiration, inspire them, because that's where the creativity kind of grows. And I could tell that you had an active imagination as a child. I mean, there is no way the work that you create now is not just based in let me study theory, let me go to college. I mean, yeah, okay. I mean, I those things have validity in our art making practice. But I think there's something to be said about the life that is lived prior to picking up the crayon and the paper and the wax and the taxidermy. I mean, I said about materials, I am like, wait, what I just, I don't know why I geek out about materials. I just, I honestly believe that there's something about materiality because I'm so used to creating dance, which is ephemeral and movement, and it doesn't, it doesn't exist. It only exists in that present manifestation. And so I'm always intrigued by what the solidity of materials and what that speaks and the language, and you use that saying that there was a statement you made about that material is language, and that's why I thought, Oh, she said to writing. And then I started going. So I just kind of curious about you knew you were going to be an artist, and you knew this was, you know, you're in this, this rich, imaginative world that your parents have, have, have set up for you and your and your siblings. How did that translate? Come until, I hate to say it, the Midwest. I love Dayton. I love being in the Midwest. But the Midwest is not known beyond. It has a pragmatism. So those of us who are a little shall I say, in the creative realm, we're a little different. We marched to a beat of a different drummer. So what was that like once you kind of you traveled around. You're coming from these experiences in like Hawaii and other places, and your your family, I'm assuming that your dad settled in Dayton because of Wright Pat. I mean,

Petah Coyne  13:51

no, no, he was Army, Army. He was Army. He he was gonna. He did. He was he was a, he was raised a very poor boy, and he did the army because of World War Two, and he felt he should give this to his country, as all the World War Two guys did, and but then he was able to become a doctor. And he felt that he because of the military, and he felt that, because of that, he should give back to his country. So he did the 20 years, giving back to his country and and he was 18 years in and was going to do those last two years, and a friend that he'd gone to not Doctor school. Oh, well, medical medical school, thank you. I couldn't think of that. Yeah, thank you. Rodney, medical school, Doctor Alan bush and he had been in he'd been in medical school to do heart. Uh, but he had a bad heart himself, and they told him to go into dental school, because that would be easier. He'd never be able to do the heart because it would be too tough on him. So he went into dental and and then, and then he met Dr AJ bush, and he knew the children were starting to get he and mom felt a little strange because of all these movements, and they were starting to get a little older. And he thought, oh God, you know, maybe we should settle them down. And he said, Okay, two more years, and then we're going to find a home for them in the Midwest, because both my parents were from Nebraska, Omaha, Nebraska and Youngstown, Ohio, and they thought the Midwest would be grounding for them. And Dr Bucha partner had gotten killed in a car accident, so he reached out to my father, and he said, Do you want to become my partner in this orthodontia thing in Dayton, Ohio? And my dad was like, he really admired Dr bush, and he said, God, I'm 18 years in full retirement. And he really thought, this is a he went to Dayton with my mother. Thought it was a great town. And he said, Yes, I'll do it, and I'll do active reserves for five years to make up for the two years. And so we went to Dayton, Ohio. And I'll tell you it for all of us kids, it was like we had landed on Mars, traveling all over the world. And I remember my brother and I both went. It was like, it was like Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz. It was like and but I will say, first and foremost, the best thing Dayton Ohio ever gave to me was my husband. My husband I've been with almost 60 years now. Wow. I met him when I was 13 years old, and I saw him, and I knew, I knew he was going to be my husband. And I went right over to him, and I said, Excuse me, I'm going to marry you. Could you please tell me your name? And he flipped out, and he looked at me, and he was with all his friends, and they all started laughing, like, what the hell I said? Oh, I said, I'm new in the neighborhood. My name is Peter Coyne. And I said, Can you tell me your name? And I think I even called them little boy, because I was this size, like, five feet. I was very big, and then I stopped growing, and then I was like, and he looked at me, got on his bicycle and took off. Well, I'm the daughter of a military man. I just got on my bike and followed him. You know, I was a little aggressive, I guess, and I he went into his garage and did not come out. Well, I said, Excuse me, I just need to know your name. I'm not going to marry you today and come out. I just, I mean, can you imagine how rude that was? So I just knocked on the garage door and nothing. So I said, Well, I'm very patient. I'll just wait here. I knew he had to come out sometime, right?

Rodney  18:17

I love it. You, you, set your sights, and it was like, boom, and you're i That tenacity is just awesome. So the best thing out of Midwest, I loved 60 years amazing. I mean, so, I mean, I he eventually did come out, and he eventually did warm up. Well, his

Petah Coyne  18:37

mother came home, okay, and I said, you know, there's a boy in the Garage I'd like to meet. And so she lifts up the door and she said, Oh, that's my son, Lamar, at home, and they called him tam at the time because that was his nickname. And I said, Oh, thank you so much. I said, I'll be back tomorrow to play. And Lamar goes, Oh, mom, she's so weird. What did you tell her my name for? But I did love him. I loved him so much, and eventually, eventually, it did take quite a few years, quite

Rodney  19:14

a few years, but you made an impression.

Petah Coyne  19:17

I did make an impression. His mother never particularly liked me. I guess I was too aggressive. Her name was happy Hall. I

Rodney  19:28

love, you know, it's a thing and so and so, like you said, it was like landing in Mars. That's why I said that the Midwestern pragmatism from this worldly exploring the world. And so it's I get it from a parental standpoint of that kind of grounding and pragmatism. My parents are very grounding. I love my mom for always saying, oh, Rodney, you work too hard. You're always, can you slow down? And I'm like, No, Mom, there's things to do, you know? Yeah. I understand, not so much time. And, you know, so we're running, we're running into our things. And so what was it like to kind of like, it's you knew you were going to be an artist, and so you're like, you, so you started taking classes. And you started taking classes at UD. Did, did you just start taking classes over the summer? I mean, did they just have

Petah Coyne  20:22

no I, when I was in high school, there was a great art teacher there, terrific art teacher, Mr. Carmichael. We all called him C and I went to Oakwood high school. I went there in eighth grade, which is a horrible time to go, because everybody goes there in seventh grade, and I arrived there in eighth grade, which is a just crummy time to arrive. You're awkward,

Rodney  20:48

and they've all known each other for years,

Petah Coyne  20:51

up through the middle school. And Mr. Carmichael was wonderful. He had all the outcast in his class and and he allowed me to sign up for three or four sessions, you know, fourth, fifth and sixth classes, or whatever they all are, in the afternoon. So I could spend the whole afternoon in the art class, all afternoon there with him and working on something, you know, wax class, you know, and then making bronze castings and and doing he had such outrageous things we were doing at the time, and by the time I was in 10th grade, I had done everything he knew how to do. And so I went to mom and dad, and I said, Listen, I don't want to go to school anymore. I'm bored. I don't want to go there anymore. And and they said, Well, you have to go and I said, I It's either I run away and or you find a way that I don't have to go to school. And they said, it's not up to us. If you can go to the principal and figure out a way you don't have to go to school, we'll stand behind you. And I said, Okay, I'll do this. So I went to the principal, and God bless the Oakwood school systems. I went to them, and I said, Listen, I'm either going to leave school or you have to find a way that I don't have to go to school. And the principal was so shocked. And I remember Mrs. McGann, who was my guidance counselor, stood behind him and giggled and said, you deal with her. And give me 24 hours to think about this, Peter, we've never quite had a student like you. All right, let me think about this. So the next morning, I was there at his class at eight o'clock, you know, homeroom class, and he brought me in with Mrs. MC Angel, and he said, Okay, how about this, if you can test out of your classes in the fall of all your classes, then you can go to the University of Dayton. How about that? I said, done. Okay, you give me all the homework over the summer. I'll get it all done. I'll test out of them in the fall, and then I go to the University of Dayton. He said, Okay, done. So that's what I did. So my mother, blessed be her soul. But had each room in our house, history, math, you know, whatever they were, each room was a different thing, but my brothers and sisters had to do it with me. Now, this did not engender love between my brothers and sisters, and so they had to go with me from room to room, studying all the different things and and I have a terrible dyslexia, so it wasn't an easy summer, but that's what we did. And then I tested out of all my classes first thing, and then I went down to the University of Dayton and just did art classes, which was grand. I had to sign into homeroom. It was a legal state law right now you

Rodney  23:57

have to sign in. And

Petah Coyne  24:01

that was much to the Oakwood High School generosity, absolutely,

Rodney  24:07

and the fact that you were so your family. I mean, granted, the siblings weren't all, you know, into it, not loving it, that like, wow, I had to study in the summer. I can see that my brother would probably hate me to this day, but this is that generosity and that sense of knowing you were demonstrating clearly. This is it. There's not there's no Plan B, there's no plan C. I need to be in art classes and at a college level that is astounding to me.

Petah Coyne  24:44

Yeah, I was, I just was so bored. I was bored, and they knew I was going to leave, I would have left, I would have left. They must have seen that. I That that was it. I was going to leave.

Rodney  24:57

Wow, like you were just like. I'm done with this, you would have been the true you were going to follow what we would call the Bohemian spirit in your soul, to just do your thing and it but I don't think, but I don't think it's that's a thing. It's just it was done with such intentionality. Do you this is not a you're not a i, and that's what's so fascinating to me about your your your pathway and the story, because it's like, nope, nope. It's it's clear. It's clear as just oh, I'm

Promo  25:30

Bonnie miles, membership coordinator of CET. Thank you for listening to Rodney veal is inspired by this podcast is a production of CET, and think TV two local PBS stations as PBS stations, the work we do online, on air and in the community is supported by listeners like you. If you're enjoying the show and would like to support our work, please consider becoming a member at CET connect.org or think tv.org Plus, when you sign up to donate at least $5 a month, you'll get access to special members only streaming videos on the PBS app through passport. Learn more at CET connect.org or think tv.org If you're

Rodney  26:11

enjoying this conversation, the art show, also hosted by Rodney veal, is available to stream anytime from anywhere on YouTube or the PBS app. And so you're so it must have been glorious heaven to be in a call in a college setting, expanding the repertoire of images and the kind of work you were doing. So at that time, what did you consider to sign a kind of the work you were kind of heading into? Because most of what you're doing is definitely trend would have probably, and I've been, I'm not an art historian, per se, but I I have taken those classes. I do have an undergraduate about the 1960s 70s, was this time of transition, where how we perceive the art making process and the materialities. I mean, it's UD, it's a Catholic University, I don't was there on the allowance for that sort of deep dive investigation, that kind of experimentation. It,

Petah Coyne  27:12

it wasn't. It was. It was mostly life drawing classes. I wanted to know, understand the body. So I was doing, they had life drawing so and that. So I was allowed to do life drawing. There was a lot of painting. I really thought I'd be a painter, although sculpture, I really loved. I loved sculpture the most. And I was doing a bronze casting, which was kind of unheard of it, and I was going down to the foundries. We had so many foundries in Dayton. And yes, I know, and I would go down to these foundries, but I was kind of frightened a little bit because I would go to these foundries that all the men would just stare at me. So I made my mother go with me. Now, mothers at that time were not allowed to wear pants. I don't know. This is way before your time. Remember, this is in the late 60s, early 70s. So my mother had to walk out to her car in her dress, in a skirt and top in her in that and then she would get in the car, and then she'd have to pull her pants on, because she's going to a foundry right. She can't go in a skirt and right, and then just pull on these pants right. And then we'd go to this foundry together, and she would make a piece of sculpture with me, and so that the the men would really bother me too much, because her mother was here, what are they going to do to me? Because I was really frightened by them. I could see, you know, when you're you've your senses pick up these, these, I feel frightened. I felt frightened, truly frightened, and so but with her there, I didn't feel frightened anymore. They're not going to really hurt me with my mother, right there, right? So, right, right. And then I did a lot of bronze castings, but they all look like Degas. You have to work through other artists to get to where you are.

Rodney  29:14

Oh, yes, so true, isn't it not true? Yes, you kind

Petah Coyne  29:19

of, you most of them out, but I still have one. Yeah, wow.

Rodney  29:23

So, so, I mean, because you, you, you cite some, some, some heavy hitters, as you know, influences, and they were starting to hit the heyday, probably like, you know, the of kind of, not the heyday. I would say it's a different language. The different word for it is there your exposure to their presence in the art world, like Eve Hess and and Louise Bourgeois, I mean, so what I mean? I could only imagine seeing Louise's sculpture, spider sculpture, and just going, yeah. I'm done. I want to go. I want to do that. I'll have what she's having.

Petah Coyne  30:04

So, right? But you remember, she didn't make that till not later.

Rodney  30:10

Oh, that's, that's much later, but, but she was, but she was experimenting, besides the spider, but she was, she was about that time she was doing what she was kind of like, very her stuff was going places before it kind of distilled into the spiders. I mean, so what was your exposure to them like? I mean, was it at UD or was it after you do?

Petah Coyne  30:31

Oh, no, no, I didn't know. I I had seen I didn't know Eva Hesse till after I graduated from college, and I knew her work, because I went to visit my brother, who graduated from Columbia in graduate work, and he and I went to visit him, and we went to the Whitney and we found this book by Lucy Lippard, and I went, whoa, whoa. And then I went home, and I just graduated and from undergraduate, and I went and listened to a talk by Alice a cock. Jody. Jody, oh, God, what's her last name? Jody, well, Jody and Donna Dennis. I can see Jodi's finger bridge in Philadelphia. I just can't think of her last name, and I know her really well now. And I heard these three women speak on the Dayton beautiful Council. They talked about things I had never heard of before, never. And they were all from New York. And I thought, Here I am supposing I'm a sculptor and I don't know anything about their work. I don't know anything about this kind of work, and I'm thinking, what am I doing in Dayton? And I'd come back from the Art Academy of Cincinnati to Dayton, I'd just gotten married to my long time love in my life. And he was going to graduate school at the University of Dayton and working, and I was working at teaching at the Dayton Art Institute and children's program, children's program, and, and working for Dr Thomas, an eye surgeon, and, and I thought, I got to get out of here. I got to go to New York. So that that day, I went home, and I said to Lamar, Lamar, i i I've got to go to New York. And I said, I know you have to finish school. And I said, but I'll go and I'll find a place for us to live and set everything up. And then when you finish graduate school, you come on. He said, we've only been married, like, three months. And I said, I know, but he said we waited eight years to get married. And I said, I know. And he said, so you're gonna leave me now and go to New York? And I said, I know. And he said, Well, you're not gonna leave me here. I'm coming. And I said, but I'm leaving, like, in a week or two. He said, Yes, well, we're leaving together. And I said, Great, okay, fine. Wow,

Rodney  33:19

that's love that he knew your vision. He well, he knew your tonight. He knew that you had there's that thing some people would just get on the bus, or they get a fine Good luck to you. I'll be waving to you from the back. But I love the fact that he he saw He saw it, he

Petah Coyne  33:52

knew it. I don't think he was happy. Oh, wow. Really. I don't think he liked this. I don't think he liked graduate school. I don't think he liked his job.

Rodney  34:02

So this was a good out.

Petah Coyne  34:05

Yeah, he said, done. I'm with you.

Rodney  34:09

And you guys have been in New York ever since, ever

Petah Coyne  34:12

since we moved we moved in with my brother, who did not know I was coming, and he was another nice surprise. Surprise. Here we go. And he just graduated from Columbia, and he was with down in Tribeca, which nobody was living down there. And they had 5000 square feet down there. I think this was like, what was this year? 76 Wow. Okay, yeah. And we went down there and and I rang the doorbell, and the doorbell, of course, to bring and it was like it was just three blocks up from the World Trade Tower, and you had to climb five flights of stairs all the subreddits hot dog vendors kept all their carts in the bottom four. Floor, you can imagine the bug problem and rat problem in that building. And so you had to climb all the stairs and no no lights, no lights, right? So you had to feel each step as you went up, and then when you hit about the fifth floor, there were a few steps missing. So make sure that step is there right before and put the fifth floor was glorious because it was all sky lit and the and at that time, they used to leave on all the lights at the World Trade Towers to advertise it. That shows you the 1970s electricity had tons of money and and it was so beautiful, because the light, the it was so beautiful. And, and Tom and a bunch of other graduate students were all there, and they'd all built loft beds. It was so such a big space. And, and so Tom goes, What are you doing here? I said, Well, Lamar, and I've moved here. And he said, Where are you staying? And I said, with you. And he's going, like, Oh God, my little sister's here. Oh Lord. Well, not long, I said, I just till we find another place. And he's like, Oh God, you don't know hard it is to find spaces in New York. I said, Is it really? Said, yeah, it is. He said, Do you have a job? I said, No, but I said, I'll get one. And he goes, Oh, Peter, they're really hard to find. I said, No, not for me. I'll get one by next Friday. He said, Oh, Peter, you don't know. I said, I'll get one mark my words. And he said, Oh, you probably will. And so, and I had one by Friday. And so anyway, we, we did. We moved there and but Tom moved with us to the next place, which is where we still live. And so that's where we live now. We still live there. Run, stabilized, great loft. So you,

Rodney  36:56

so you, you got the you got the inspiration, like you're in New York, and which is, you know, that buzz and electricity, it's not just electricity. It's just the fact that everybody's who is creative is pushing beyond the envelope, as I describe it, and so you're immersed in this world. What was that like? I mean, you just must have been like, Ah, this is

Petah Coyne  37:21

great, but I'll tell you. When I first moved here, I was told and knew no uncertain terms. I had not read enough, I had not seen enough. I had not done enough. I was not good enough. I was like nothing, nothing, nothing. And I I started to look around, and I could see they were right. They were right. They were 100% correct, 100% correct. So I got it. I got a job. First. I got a job at the Strand bookstore, my

Rodney  37:52

favorite place. Oh, mine, too.

Petah Coyne  37:56

I know the guy told me we're not hiring. I know I love that place. I figured if I had to work, I might as well work at a place I love books, right? Absolutely, but I it was really true. It was really true. I had to read a lot more and and someone else told me, Don't waste your time taking your work around. It's not good enough. And I went around, looking around, and I could see my work was not as good. It was not as good, and so and this curator who lived where we eventually ended up, a month later, after we moved in with my brother, we found another loft, and there was a curator on the second floor, lots of creative people in this building, and she told me, my work wasn't good enough. I was insulted at first, but there was no reason for her to lie to me, but, and she was right. She said, Go, look around. Go look for yourself. And I did, and she was right. And and she said, I'll come every year. She said, work hard. And every Saturday I would go around, spend the whole day looking at galleries. And I had to work hard. I have no trust fund, baby here, and I was working full time in advertising to make enough money to support living in New York, to

Rodney  39:20

live in New York, which is, you know, and also to do it's explore the work. It's not, you know, I mean, and that's what I love, the fact that you talked about, you need to read more. You need to go experience more. You need to see more. And I, I've always said that, even to those who in the performance, performative arts, how can you perform a work and you don't understand the impetus behind what this choreographer is trying to say, I need you to be I need you to be more immersed in your humanity. Fill in the blanks, bro, I would say that to my students and those ideas. So glad, because that's a legitimate thing, and that's. Want something like when this podcast is sharing that with people say, no, no, you need more information. It's always more. There's always more to be gained and gathered, and it doesn't stop. And so you're in this thing. I mean you. I mean New Yorkers. I've have several relatives from New York who are very brutal in their honesty. I which I love, I love them for that's why I love New York. I It's like they're going to tell you the truth. Deal with it, deal and

Petah Coyne  40:30

that's, I think that's why you're here, because that's, well, that's why I love to be here. There's always going to be somebody better. There's always going to be someone who's more that inspires you. And when I go out, I'm always like, Whoa, look at that. That is so interesting. And a lot of my older friends go, Oh, it's just ridiculous. I'm like, That is so not ridiculous. That is so off the charts. And they're like, What do you mean, Peter, that's ridiculous. Well, you may think it's ridiculous. I think it's really interesting, because it's like, Have you ever seen anything like that before? You know, and you know, it really is interesting. It makes me think, like, I would have never thought to do that. And,

Rodney  41:16

yeah, interesting. And that's a question that, like I said when I talked about materiality, it's like the fact that when was that transition into, I call it, I'm just this language of that moment where it, I call it, when it I had an aha moment, or it clicked the light bulbs so went off. The room was so illuminated. I was like, Oh, I you know, almost, it was almost too much information of the light going off. When was that moment like for you? When did it occur? Because I feel like that, you must have saw the light. I've seen the light, and you've ran with it. You are, I know you saw it, and then you just ran. So when was that amount of curiosity,

Petah Coyne  42:01

I think, when I started reading a lot and I started really listening Robert Rauschenberg and Sol LeWitt and Lucy Lippard, all those people, they kept saying, you know, that everybody is an individual, and nobody should be doing work like anybody else's, and that you are so unique in your own self, and nobody's come up like you. So how, how are you making work like nobody else? And I remember thinking, Okay, and what are you looking at? What are you thinking about when you do the dishes? What are you What are you doing when you walk down the street? What is it you look at? And I began to really so I would walk home every night. I was working at Chanel at the time, and I remember just walking home, and where would I always end up? Was at Chinatown. And I would always looking at the dead fish. And I'd always think there's so much more beautiful than anything I'm doing in my studio. And then I thought, so, why don't I just take these dead fish and just hang them in my studio? There's so much more beautiful. Why am I wasting my time trying to make something? Why not just hang these dead fish? So then I just started buying all these dead fish, and I just bought 1000s of them. And for five years, I, you know, painted the walls black and covered the windows of black plastic. I was not looking to be in a gallery. I was not looking to show this work. I was just making this work because I needed to see what it would look like if I would spend a lot of years hanging all these dead fish, spending all my extra money on these dead fish and baby barracudas and just hanging them. What would this be? If that's what I would do and just work from instinct, rather than anything intellectual, anything planned, just do it. And that's when, for me, that that's I didn't do it for anybody. I didn't do it to make it to make money. I, God knows, I didn't do it to make money. And right? That's what it was for.

Rodney  44:08

And I love the fact that I think that that's the moment too, when you just I didn't care. I, you know, I remember the moment was because I had gone to grad school and I was coming from a ballet background, so I I had, I studied art up until college, and then I discovered dance, and I started late in life, and then, and there was this opportunity to dance at Dayton ballet, but long story short, it was like when I went to grad school. They like, why is your work not representative of the visual art background or the political science background. And I said, Well, there's not a lot of political discourse in ballet. She's a bird lifter. I don't have there's no more i There's no more motivation. She's a bird lifter. And I said, so here's a chance for me to figure out, why am I moving? Would that it was worth. Birth the institute loan debt, to figure out, well, why am I making and why am I moving to your point that room, I can see that's what I mean. I think in every artist I've ever talked to, we've always had those it doesn't make sense to others, but it makes sense to us, yes, which makes and it all that matters, which makes everyone so confounded. My mother goes, Oh, what did you have to get naked? Rodney, did you? Did you have to do these things as well? Yeah, former, you know this creative process, and so you're doing this. And so when did, when did you feel that, that that moment, that the work was ready to be seen by the world? When? When was that for you?

Petah Coyne  45:51

Gosh, I Oh, I don't even really remember. Isn't that funny? I just kept working. I can't even, I can't even remember, to tell you the truth. Isn't that funny? No,

Rodney  46:09

it's not. It's not. I mean, I don't remember when, when I transitioned. I call it the transition, like it just okay, well, and,

Petah Coyne  46:21

yeah, I'd have to really think back. I'd have to look at my images. I think, I think eventually the fish migrated into Oh, oh the fish. Oh the fish. The fish eventually gave Lamar terrible eye infections. That was it. And they had to go out because he was gonna go blind. That was it. He got terrible eye infections. And so that was it. So I had to get them out of the loft, and so I decided to put them out, and that was it. So then I decided to give them as a gift to somebody. And I thought it would be a beautiful gift to put them on somebody's you know how the beautiful homes are in Oakwood. And I thought, what a beautiful gift to put them on somebody's yard and car and flower boxes and cross their trees and hanging from their trees and blowing. And so I went to a place called Garden City, which is so like Oakwood. And I thought, oh, it would be so fun if one house had a tsunami that went across their yard and nobody else, just one house. And what a riot for them to open their doors in the morning and think a tsunami hit our house. Whoa. Look at this beautiful art piece. Well, didn't quite happen that way. All my friends helped me do it at three o'clock in the morning. We did this tsunami across this one place that looked exactly like the house across the street from where I grew up, right? And I thought they'd be thrilled, and I stood across the street in my miyaki all ready to have breakfast with them. I thought we'd all talk esoteric things. But no, no, they came out. They flipped out, flipped out. I mean, you would think that I had spray painted their house with, you know, kill the pigs or something across their house or something, you know, the father said, what one of your kids did this to her house, you know, like, look what they did. They put dead fish everywhere. What does this mean? Is this a code for something? And I was like, and all of a sudden, I saw it through their eyes, what I had done to their home. And it never occurred to me. I only saw it as a most beautiful thing and a gift. It was not a gift. And I never, ever, ever, ever did that to anybody, ever again, never did a piece of public art without getting permission signed by an attorney. You know, that was the next thing I did. But after that, I always got permission, you know,

Rodney  49:25

prior to actually installing do the public Yes. I mean, the

Petah Coyne  49:29

next big thing I did was a nun on the highway, but that was in Houston, Texas, Texas, of all places with the fish in the back, you know. But yeah, and I went on to do a lot of public art before I went on to start to do galleries and museums

Rodney  49:46

and installation pieces and so just incorporate. And so you, you you talk. There are many, many, many articles about your voracious reading habits, I mean. And I saw your list of writers, and I was like, Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, we must have a conversation. I do have. I do want to recommend a book. I'm I the only reason, the only reason why it's my favorite, and I think it's from the beautiful language and the imagery. Michael Cunningham, flesh and blood.

Petah Coyne  50:15

Oh, I've read all his books, but I don't know if I've read that one that is,

Rodney  50:19

it is a multi generational story of a of a family's so it's just, oh, there's some just vivid imagery in there, that powerful stuff. So just I, and so I know that that informs your work. And so this, I could see this walking and observing and taking it all in and what you're reading, and so it's incorporated into work. And that's what I mean about like talk about the when I talk about materialities, the materials reflect that sort of literary investigation. And so that's what I mean when I see things and I go, there's a story or that she knows, but I don't know, but it's telling me a story, and I'm now imagining what that story is. And for those who are creative, we're ready to kind of embrace it. And I was talking about the work that you have at the Dayton Art Institute currently, and how it is beloved. Is it yours? Is the work with the two figures who are leaning forward in a chair, correct? And they are connected by hair, which is not hair, it's sort of string. Am I wrong? Like I would hate to say, like, you know they do. You have a work at the Dai it's in the Contemporary Gallery.

Petah Coyne  51:42

No, I don't. You don't. A Dayton Art Institute does not own any of my they own one print that somebody just gave them, really, no, why did I

Rodney  51:56

think that was your work? I mean, it's like, because I saw you when I when I saw you, when I saw your work, you know, doing investing. I just had it in my head that I have either that or I have seen it either in St Louis or New York. And maybe that's it. That's okay, see, because

Petah Coyne  52:19

I was gonna say that does sound like my work. It sounds

Rodney  52:22

like you just, there's this. There's something about the material, someone's copying my work. Oh, God, they better not be

Petah Coyne  52:33

no, there's a lot of people that do work similar to yours sometimes, and sometimes that's okay,

Rodney  52:41

that's, that's, that's cool. Yeah, that's nice, but, but they have to do something. But you it's what you know. You're the originator. You're the one who's in your singularity, your voice, and it's like the materials. That's where, when I see the images of your materials, I'm just, I geeked out, because, for those who don't know, we had to move spaces for the this interview. And I just remember seeing the silk flowers behind you, and I was just like, Oh, I know those are gonna get incorporated as something massive, into

Petah Coyne  53:14

something, yes, yes, that was my working studio. And so

Rodney  53:18

the thing is, with materials, I mean, because it's not like I said, it's not one of the situations where it can be taught in a classroom, material like you, the use of materials that are not intended for their use. Like I love, I that's the reason why I love Mark Bradford. He's one of my favorite artists. Is, oh, he's wonderful, yeah, the fact that it was, I just that, hey, I'm a hairdresser. I have end papers. I'm gonna burn them and layer. And I was like, Dude, I mean, it's just that sense of and then I'm gonna go, and it keeps growing and evolving Once that initial so you're starting with fish, and now you've moved into taxidermy and wax and fabric, and you, you, you even, you even got taught by a seamstresses how to sew fabrics together, so you use it to make art. Is that important? Like, is it just like the kind like you? Are you the kind of artist who's like, I have an idea. I may not know how to construct it, but I'm going to figure it out, and then do it.

Petah Coyne  54:23

Oh, yes, definitely, definitely. And or you see something. I saw this one place where they were shredding cars, and then I saw a 1950s Airstream trailer, and then I asked them, could they shred that for me? And it was so outrageously expensive, and even if I used all my NEA grant, I could only afford a quarter of it. So then I convinced another sculptor to buy so we could buy half of it, and she didn't really even want it, but I said, Oh, you have to have it. And so we bought half of it, and it was such a beautiful piece. Piece. It ended up being such a beautiful piece. And, and although it's very heavy, and it ended up being used in a performance, and then also in a piece. And, and, yeah, we do. I Yeah, because it's so fun to mess with me. And I use, you know, taxidermy. I was, I started using taxidermy in the 90s, I love and mostly because someone said, this museum throughout all this taxidermy, it was in Canada, and she said, I can smuggle it in under my clothes. Do you want it? I said, Yes, bring it in. So She acted like she was pregnant, and she brought it all in under her clothes. And it was all these beautiful song birds and everything. And then I paid for her to go back to Canada and bring more in, like,

Rodney  55:52

beautiful, interesting, so, like, you're just like, you know? And that's why, that's why I said about the this, that sense of play and inquisitive to this never stops. And I know. And so the work, yeah, and you see something. And so like, you know, I just love that. I just love the fact that you're just like, oh, let me try something new. Let me and so it the pigeonholing. There's no way to pigeonhole you as an art maker and a creative thinker. There's just no way, none

Petah Coyne  56:21

of us. I don't think if you'd have to be dead, you know you, I think you just keep going and seeing it. And now I have so many materials here I can mess with mixing them, which is really fun, really fun. And so that's really great. And the wax is, the wax isn't a normal wax, it's a patented wax. There's three patented formulas, and it was made by the guy at Chanel, who was the who made all the lipsticks. And when I realized that the wax was melting, I went to him, I said, Can you make me a wax that will hold up for all times? And he said, Well, sure, I can it's expensive, though, PETA and and he was an Iranian great chemist, and I wanted it to be really so that it would only melt at 250 202 50. And could be very could get really cold too, so it can go down to 40 below zero, but it doesn't really like to move in less than it could. It can. It doesn't like to move in less than 40 degrees, you know, because it'll crack so and that's why we keep this, this room cold, in your space, not in here, here, and we're working, we we really warm it up. It likes it really prefers warmth. And everybody's like, don't send it south. I'm like, it loves the South. It loves everybody's like, really, you know? So it's funny. It's

Rodney  57:56

just, I just, I just wanted to make like I said. It is just the the that sense of the it's not just the materials. It's the inquisitiveness behind the choice and the stories behind it. That's and I think that that's what's important, which goes back to those when someone you know the Hard Knocks of New York, the first years, back in the 70s, and people say York's not good enough. You need to know more, and so you just are constantly exploring the idea of creativity. And I love the fact and you, but you're also, at the same time, really supportive of other women and I, and I had a conversation with one of our producers here this morning, and Rita Lanti, and I just said, it's it's not just that you respect we it that we have to respect women. We have to acknowledge their humanity. We have to acknowledge that that they bring things to the table that are above and beyond on the human scale. Period, it's not about respecting. It's about saying, okay, but Hey, bring it. Come on. Let's go, get on the bus. And so if, as it and I was thinking about that, and that sense of what we do here on the art show, because it's important, because we know, you know, because you've had this, this, this longevity of of being in a creative practice, it has not always been easy for different voices to be seen and heard and the art realm, yeah,

Petah Coyne  59:34

yes, yeah. And it's, it's, that's why I was saying to you, thank you so much for what you do and who you're acknowledging, and who you interview. And the first time I met you, I was so applauding of that, because it's rare that people do that. And may I say it, African American women have it the worst, the worst other. Are starting to come up. Still, if you look at the galleries, maybe they have one or two African American women if they have any, God help us, right? And if, if they have women at all. Now let's look at the five top major galleries in New York, let's count how many women they have, and then how many African American women they have, and or how many Asian women they have, or how many Hispanic women they have. I mean, it's bleak. It's bleak, and it's, I don't know, it's just very, very sad. So hopefully, and I don't want it to be 100 years before it changes. I want

Rodney  1:00:47

the now. And yeah, I totally agree. And it's of the now. The now is, and that's to me, what's exciting about what I get to do. It's like, I get to go hang out in there, get in their studio spaces, I get to break bread with them, and just and just see the end, feel the energy. That's what I want the audience to understand. That's why it's important to go see work. And to go see work that's going to challenge you. Don't just go because it's, it's esthetically pleasing. That is the worst. That's a recipe for blandness. That's I'm you might as well be giving me, uh, mashed potatoes and and baked chicken. As far as I'm concerned, I want, I want some, I was a flavor. I think the word and I want to tell that you deserve the flavor. And so that's what I love about your work, is like, you know, it's flavorful. I mean, no, no, no, it's, it's genuine. I mean, I'm just, I'm so excited. I'm like, I'm like, I get, I get to, like, just the fact that you just, like, let's smuggle in birds taxi, let's stream you. Let's come a trailer. I mean, thank you. I'm like, oh, okay, don't be afraid. I want my mom to shake her head one last time. I go, Oh, did it again? Don't we all want that response? And so I so I always ask this question, because I know that people listen to this podcast at different places in their life. What would you tell them about the because it is a it is a thing that to step into the take that first leap, so to speak, into the void. What advice would you give them to say, take that leap into the void?

Petah Coyne  1:02:48

Well, I guess first you have to really want to do it, because if you don't really want to do it, you're never going to do it. Because there's a lot of people that say they want to do it, but they don't really want to do it, there's a lot there. I would say 50% of the people that say they want to do it, but they don't really want to do it, and so that's number one. But those that truly want to do it, there's nothing gonna gonna stop them, like nothing stopped you. Eventually you're just gonna jump off that cliff, and you have to do it because you're really gonna you need to do it. There's no choice, but you need to do it, and you're not gonna do it for any other reason than just needing to do it. I can't think of any other reason, and you're not gonna do it for the money. And someone said to me just recently that you can't put all that pressure on your artwork to, like, give you fulfilling your soul, fulfilling every part of everything you need in this world, and then make your money. And I thought, ah, that's what kids coming out of school expect. They expect it to do everything for them and then make make their living for them too. And maybe I expected that also and be and that was maybe where we all went wrong. We expected that and, and maybe, maybe I would have gotten to the dead fish faster had I not expected that.

Rodney  1:04:29

You know, no, I totally agree with that. I think that there's, it's really funny because, you know, going back, you know, I'm still and I love collaborating, especially doing installation pieces, these performance art pieces that were it's not all on me, I but I'm a part of a team, and that sense of that we're connecting. And so it was so funny to me. It was like, I said, no, no. I said, save the money. Go back to more art with it. I have something that'll pay the bills. Yes, this, but this, this is priceless to get down to hang what hang with these artists who I respect and admire and love, where they're coming from. Why would I put a price tag on that? Please don't Sully my good feeling. This feels good. It feels right. And so I think that that's what you're you know, that that sense and that feeling you had to be in that dark room with the hanging fish, yes, you got to be in this space. So, yeah, PETA, you know, I'm coming to New York. You and I are going to the strand, yes, yes. And we're going to talk about,

Petah Coyne  1:05:41

tie my hands. Tie my hands. Do not let me buy another book. If you could see all the books, I have 80 feet of bookcases. No more books, nobody. Oh,

Rodney  1:05:56

no, come on. No. Not a one, not a win. I will. I will send you a photograph for the stacks and stacks of books that we have in our house. Good. And I keep adding and I refuse to stop.

Petah Coyne  1:06:08

But you're young, yet you're young,

Rodney  1:06:11

okay, oh, that's very kind of you. In three weeks, two weeks, I turned 60, so thank you. You're 10

Petah Coyne  1:06:17

years behind. You're 12 years you're behind me. You got 12 years of more buying books, and then you, then you stop at 75 okay, okay, okay, you got, you got 15 more years

Rodney  1:06:28

to Go. Okay, I love that. Cut off. That's awesome.