David Crean - Music Director, Bach Society of Dayton

Rodney is joined by Dr. David Crean, Music Director for the Bach Society of Dayton, to discuss his lifelong dedication to music (starting with piano at age six) as he emphasizes the importance of intrinsic value in the arts, not just as a means to other ends.

Learn more about the Bach Society of Dayton: https://www.bachsocietyofdayton.org

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Rodney Veal, Dr. David Crean, Promo

Dr. David Crean  00:00

You hear a lot of studies about listening to Mozart will make you maybe a genius. Listening to music will make you better at math. It'll make you better in science. And I think that's a real problem in how we promote the arts and how we talk about it, is that we're not old enough to say this is important in its own right. So I guess I would say to parents with anybody interested in going into the arts is be sure that they believe that, be sure that they believe that what they're doing is principally important and not a path to get better at something else.

Rodney Veal  00:41

Well, hello everyone. This is Rodney Veal, the host of Rodney Veal's inspired by today, I get to have a conversation with Dr David crean, who is the artistic director of the Dayton Bach society. But he is another multi hyphenate. I mean, he is pretty much doing anything and everything connected to music, organists, writing. He also hosts his own show on wdpr, discover classical with music. And so he's in this world of art. He is. He's in it to win it in that regard. And I mean, I love this, someone who's like, who's devoted their entire life to it, and can make it all happen. And he's seems like a pretty cool guy. This is the first time sitting down having a conversation, and I'm looking forward to it. So without further ado. Dr, David Crean.

Dr. David Crean  01:35

hi Rodney, good to be with you today. Thanks for having me. 

Rodney Veal  01:37

Oh, absolutely my pleasure. I mean, it is one of those situations, David, that our, one of our producers here at the station said we've got to talk to dr, dr Caren. And I said he's on the list, he's on the list, he's on the list. And when I finally made this connection, it took us a while, just because I'm just new to this whole thing. So I said, we have to have this conversation. And so it this is kind of like, Hot Tub Time Machine going back, and this is your life, because I'm kind of curious, because every person I've talked to on this podcast, and this is about, you know, this life in the arts, did you start off going that's the path I want to go on, or was it something else? I mean, I because I always ask that curious question about, like, what started this love of music and sound? Well,

Dr. David Crean  02:24

yes and no. I mean, I always, I always knew I would go into music in some way. This particular career path is definitely not what I envisioned when I was going through school. But yeah, I mean, I knew it was gonna be music from a from a pretty early age. I started piano when I was six or seven. Whoa, I've sung in choirs since I was old enough to make sound really. So it's, it's, it's been a lifelong endeavor. You know, I don't really have an active memory of a time when I wasn't involved in music in some way

Rodney Veal  02:53

or another. And there wasn't anything that was kind of like a just, there was no nothing that was thrown at you that could have been a distraction, like soccer or some other visual art. I mean, my parents tried really hard to get me to be a basketball player, and that was just not going

Dr. David Crean  03:09

to happen. Yeah, yeah. My dad tried pretty hard to get me to be an athlete, and that was that was equally unsuccessful. We tried. We tried, baseball, basketball, soccer, tennis, a lot of things about equally unsuccessfully. So it was always going to be music. It

Rodney Veal  03:24

was always going to be music. I mean, so, so what was so with piano, I mean, and following that process, because I know some musicians as well. I mean, was it you're going through this, this process of being a musician and and you're in your training? Because it is training, I think it's one of the I compare it very similarly to what it took to be a dancer. I mean, I just spent every day in the studio learning how to dance. Was this a similar proposition? Like you were in at the piano, or you were in the music room every day?

Dr. David Crean  03:58

Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know people who aren't, you know, in the arts, or haven't, haven't pursued an art. You know, often talk about, well, you're so talented, you have this God given ability, which is perhaps true to a certain extent, but you know, 95% of it is work. It's, it's putting in those hours alone in the practice room, but one in the morning, day after day, week after week. It's a commitment. It takes a substantial amount of time.

Rodney Veal  04:26

Yeah, yeah, and yeah. And that time is what I love about the you know, thinking about that is, it's because I've talked to, you know, we talked to some other musicians. We talked to like jazz musicians, and we've talked with some, some pop star prop musicians as well, I guess a rock I shouldn't say pop rock. And I've never really had a conversation with someone who, other than you know, we've had, I've had conversations with Kathleen Clawson. We've talked about opera, we've talked about music. Your parents once they knew. I mean, it was like one of those situations, like, I. With my parents, I think about your family, this was a foregone conclusion that you're going to go into music. Was Juilliard the target? I mean, I kind of curious about that, because a lot of times people say I have dreams of Juilliard, but you know, you may have dreams of Julliard, and you actually made the dream happen. So was that the natural progression and pathway. You

Dr. David Crean  05:23

know, Julia really wasn't on my radar screen until I was, I was already looking into grad schools. You know that my undergrad is from Oberlin, my Masters is from Iowa, and then it's, it's just my doctorate that's from Juilliard. So that was, that was kind of a late, a late decision for me when I was, when I was looking at doctoral programs at that point. And Juilliard is, it's amazing. I mean, it's Juilliard my, my former teacher, is one of the world's great organists, one of the greatest organists ever produced in America. It's an incredible environment to be around. You know, just, just almost unimaginably talented people all over everywhere. It's, it's also pretty humbling, you imagine? Yeah, you know, I came in as a, you know, 23 or 24 year old doctoral student, and there were 17 year olds that could just play circles around me. And it's, it's, it's a humbling experience, for sure. Yeah,

Rodney Veal  06:18

wow, wow. So did you go for your and your doctorate? You went and for or for organ, being an organist, and so what is it? Yeah, I mean that I Okay, that's an instrument that is not in everyone's household and not really available to one. Was that, as you picked up the skills of of training and you obviously your undergrad, master's degree, we know that then, you know, that sort of progression, what led you to, you know, because we had to decide. So I think about it in dance, in terms of, I had a pathway. I could have chosen modern, I could have chosen ballet. I chose ballet. I don't know, not many people have that kind of a choice. But what was the choice? What was that like? That pivot to, here's the organ. I mean, were you studying doing the organ as a child, like in high school? I mean, or

Dr. David Crean  07:08

in high school? Yeah, yeah, it was a, I think, a pretty typical path for organists. You know, most of us start out on piano, and then at some point, for most of us, somebody offers us a job playing organ, because, trained organists are in such short supply in most every, most everywhere, except for major metropolitan areas. So when I was in 10th grade, I got a job playing organ at a local church, and I was like, you know, I really need to figure out what I'm doing here. I don't want to just go in and embarrass myself. So I started taking I started taking lessons, and it turned out to be, you know, I think a more natural fit for my, my musical sensibilities and my, my keyboard technique, than piano ever was. They're very different instruments. People don't don't realize how different they are, because they're both keyboard instruments, but the sound production is completely different. Organ is essentially a wind instrument. Piano is basically a percussion. Instruments are hammered. The organism is basically a collection of whistles, 1000s and 1000s of pipes that produce each one pitch and one timbre. So it's a different way of thinking about music. It's a different way of playing the keyboard, of controlling attacks and releases. So there's some overlap. Of course, most people don't dive into organ without having had piano, but it is also a very different skill set to a large

Rodney Veal  08:28

degree. So when we type it and you tell, I love glad you talked about it as a difference sounds skill set, because when you describe the organ as a wind instrument, as percussion instrument. I mean, it's those sorts of things that color someone's ability to kind of appreciate it, as opposed to, I always think about these this podcast, is that sort of way, and a way of kind of demystifying the creative process, that things that may seem like a duh, obvious moment aren't really an obvious for some, and that that there's in that organ music can be varied. I mean, I've noticed that there, you know, and it's just because I'm in this kind of realm of having access and moving around in different different realms of music and dance and art and things like that. The organ sound is, you know, predominantly, you know, in sort of this sort of liturgical space, but you know it, but there are specific pieces of music that are geared directly. It's composed for the organ, and it's And so talk to me about that, you know, did it open your world of music, or did it narrow it, you know, in the sense of, like you're obviously you're specializing. But Did it surprise you that the how the breadth and depth that there was with the organ music as you started to study

Dr. David Crean  09:55

it did yeah, yeah, the organ is one of the oldest instruments in continuous. Usage. The first organ music that we have comes from about 1360 Whoa, it's, it's, it's more than likely that music was being written before that. We just don't, we don't have it anymore. So, you know, there's, there's almost 800 years of written organ music. It's an incredible amount of repertoire for cut, for context. The piano was only invented in 1700 and people really didn't start writing for it in earnest until like 1750 1760 so, you know, 400 years less than than the organ. So it's, it's an incredibly rich repertoire, but that's an interesting way of thinking about it. Is broadening or narrowing. It was, it was, it was a kind of both. You know, I discovered a lot of composers I probably wouldn't have if I had stuck with piano, because a lot of organ music is written by organists who sometimes didn't write much else other than organ music, and their works aren't really known outside of the organ community. People like like Vierne and Vidor. Some people know Vidor because of his famous Takata but, but most, even most fairly erudite classical music fans don't know who Louis vuon was, or don't know who Max rager was, or some of the other very, very prolific working composers. And of course, you know there's Bach and Mendelssohn and messian, they also made substantial contributions. And they're, they're, they're more familiar names to classical music audiences. But there's, there are a lot of, a lot of figures that wrote for organ that are, are not quite household names that probably, that probably deserve to be. Because they, they're, they were, were wonderful composers, but they, they restrict themselves to just writing for that one instrument.

Rodney Veal  11:40

Yeah, yeah, that restriction, I kind of think about that when you talk about the ones that are obvious, that people would know, like Bach, it's but there is knowing that there's a far year gap between, you know, the organ and the piano and then so that's, so is there still ongoing efforts, I guess, in the situation of, like, you know, there's not a lot, there is a lot. But then is there still that opportunity for the discovery of new pieces of organ music on compositions, because people, when was the the sense of notation, of music. You know, with the advent of that is, are there still these caches of discovery that hidden in some dark basements behind the wall? And the thing, did you discover music?

Dr. David Crean  12:33

Yeah, yeah, actually, composers where you would think that everything has been discovered, like Bach, you wouldn't assume that there is any more Bach that people haven't encountered. You know, people have gone through all the libraries in Germany with a fine tooth comb. But actually, a major Bach collection was discovered in the 80s at Yale University of all places. Oh, yeah, a major collection of really early working pieces by Bach that was was totally unknown, and have been hiding more or less in plain sight for many, many years in Yale. So yeah, their new discoveries still being made all the time, sometimes of very, very major canonical composers. And then there's, there's, there's a whole you know repertoire of lesser known figures whose music is available, but not particularly, particularly, particularly well known, who are being rediscovered by artists and audiences all the time. Yeah.

Rodney Veal  13:27

I mean, yeah, because it's kind of, I always envy music and music musicians, because the ability for the notation and finding scores as a dancer, it's ephemeral, unless you were actually there when the piece was created, or if there was an attempt to kind of notate the dance, it doesn't exist. And, you know, thankfully, you know, with modern technology, we do have cameras, but it's still it doesn't get to, like, the kind of depth of documentation that music stores do. And I, yeah, I, I bemoan that fact all the time. I'm like, I make dances that will probably never be seen again. Thank God for, you know, digital, digital tape and and so I'm thinking about the history of organ music. But then I think about now, I mean, are there people that actually still compose music for the oh yeah,

Dr. David Crean  14:27

oh yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah. We, we lost one of the, one of the major composers in the world a couple of years ago. Her name was Rochelle Laurent. She was the Canadian organist who'd written a lot of really wonderful music, and she just, she just recently passed away in the last few years, but people are still writing. But people are still writing for it, for sure. You know, you mentioned the Orion people having strong associations with the organ as a worship instrument, particularly Christian worship. And that's true, but it wasn't always like that, or it wasn't always exclusively like that. You know, in the in the late 19. At the early 20th century, there were organs in lots of secular venues. You know, basically every public auditorium had had an organ. Andrew. Andrew Carnegie, the famous industrialist and philanthropist, donated money for 1000s of pipe organs to be put in everywhere, yeah, okay, everywhere, from civic auditoriums to middle schools. So, you know, they were everywhere for a long period of time. And then there was this kind of gradual decline of the secular organ over the course of the 20th century. To now we're kind of back to the point where they mostly are found in churches, although not exclusively. Dayton is lucky to have a really wonderful instrument in the Dayton Art Institute, for

Rodney Veal  15:39

instance. That's right, yeah, yeah. And the

Dr. David Crean  15:43

Masonic center right across the street also has, it's actually got, I think, seven pipe organs in the building, but, but only one of the ones working at the moment. Okay,

Rodney Veal  15:51

maintenance of I mean that as an instrument, maintenance of a pipe organ is probably very complex, expensive. It's

Dr. David Crean  15:59

very expensive. And, yeah, it's very expensive. Organs in general or not, are not cheap instruments. They're cheaper. They're a long term investment,

Rodney Veal  16:09

for sure. Yeah, I mean, and so, I mean, you're, I'm thinking about this notion that, like you're, you're pursuing all of this, you know, education, towards your doctorate in this field. But I mean, you're very knowledgeable. And, yeah, I know it. I mean, I know that you're really into this how, I mean, and this is not a dis on Dayton. This is a love of this city, because I am. I'm a native daytonian. How did you get to date? Because it always fascinates me, someone with this kind of knowledge and depth of music, and How'd you get here?

Dr. David Crean  16:50

Yeah, so I actually, before I finished my doctorate, after I finished coursework, I was working on my dissertation, I moved out here to work at Wittenberg. Halftime job at Wittenberg organ. Jobs in academia are exceedingly rare. They get they get rarer every year. It seems so when one is available, you pretty much have to go where it is. So, yeah, I moved out here to take that job. And I was, I was kind of hoping, you know, if I really, if I really put my nose to the grindstone and worked hard that I would eventually turn into something more permanent, more full time. But instead it went the other way, as a lot of adjunct jobs

Rodney Veal  17:29

do, yeah, been there, done that, yeah?

Dr. David Crean  17:33

So then I, by that time, you know, I had met I had met my partner, Mary Ann. I kind of put down roots here, and also, by that point, taken on another adjunct job at Red State, teaching organ and harpsichord in theory. And it was the former department chair there, Randy Paul, who who got me connected with Discover classical because he was friends with my current boss, and said, you know, they're looking for people down there. You know, we, we can't offer you a full time job at Wright State right now. But, you know, here's a good opportunity for someone with your with your skills, you know, until we can maybe make something happen here. So when I started working at discover classical, I thought it would, it would be, you know, kind of a temporary few years thing, but it's, it's turned into a more of a permanent career. It's, it's really been wonderful. I'm really happy to be here. So that's kind of a circuitous answer to your story. The short answer the TLDR,

Rodney Veal  18:24

it does have to be short, yeah, it's like, but TLDR

Dr. David Crean  18:28

answer is, I came out here for a job. Here

Rodney Veal  18:31

for a job. I mean, what? Just kind of, I mean, yeah, I think people would be surprised to know that what Merck has, this sort of ability to attract someone like you to adjunct. I think Whitmer is a great campus. I think, you know, it's music department's really strong, I mean, but that's a lot of people don't know that it's a and also, too, I think you're at being at discover classical is another, another example of this community, kind of embracing those who have a role in the arts and give and expanding, almost like basically saying one degree of separation, here's an opportunity, and it just, you know and discover classic was great. I love Sean you and I love, I love the station. Big, big, big fan. And so use, like, I said, it's like, kind of has grown into this full time thing. So are you there at this stage of full time? I mean, are you is because you, I know you do that one shift in the afternoon, yeah, yeah.

Dr. David Crean  19:32

This is, yeah, this, this is my, my full time job. Yeah, I'm here. I'm here every, every weekday. I just, I just got off the air too, actually,

Rodney Veal  19:39

ah, so you've been spinning all the classical music. And the thing is, our community is so embracing of it.

Dr. David Crean  19:48

So for sure, yeah, the support here is really incredible. In fact, before I even moved out here, several singers, several voice majors at Juilliard said, hey, you know you're moving out to the Dayton. Area. Make sure you check out the Dayton opera, you know, they, they do. They do really fine work there. So make sure you go and check that out. They were not, they were telling no lies. It's, you know, they do wonderful work at the DPAA. One of the great things about Dayton is you can, you can do things here that you can't do in cities like New York, where just existing costs 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of dollars. You know, I was talking to somebody a couple of days ago who's on a board for a performing arts organization in New York, and he said, Yeah, you know, just, just to rent the hall for our concerts is $70,000 jeez, just, just the hall rental,

Rodney Veal  20:39

just all roads, right, exactly

Dr. David Crean  20:41

before they actually hire any musicians. So, you know, you're handicapped in places like New York by the just the sheer cost of things, and it's so much more. It's so much more flexible. Here in Dayton, you can do so much more because there isn't that massive overhead. But there is the enthusiasm, there is the love of the arts, just like there is in New York, but it's so much, it's so much easier to bring projects to fruition in a place like Dayton than it is in a bigger city like New York.

Rodney Veal  21:14

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And that was, that was one of the situations where I was talking to, I was talking to, who was I talking to about that? I was talking to Brandon Raglan, who's new artistic director, Dan ballet. And one of the, one of the things that we talked about is not just that the cost, but it's just it really is you can make one phone call and have access to the things you need to make your project take off, and it's like, Absolutely, that's unheard of, like other, I don't think people really understand, like, there are layers in New York, Chicago, of just,

Dr. David Crean  21:52

there's intense, there's intense competition,

Rodney Veal  21:54

absolutely,

Dr. David Crean  21:57

you know, in New York there's, you know, 15 other choirs, just like the Bach society, that are competing for the same audience and the same grants and the same musicians. But here in Dayton, you know, we're kind of the group that does that kind of thing, which is great, but you're right. There is, there is a lot available here in Dayton. We've been, we've been so lucky at the box society with grants. I was talking to a colleague just down in Cincinnati about about grants. He was like, Yeah, you know, maybe one of these years will get one. And I was like, get one. Wow, we got, like, we got like, five this year.

Rodney Veal  22:37

And we're, we're not even, you know, we're the sixth largest city in the state of Ohio, yeah,

Dr. David Crean  22:42

but there is, there's support. I mean, the support runs so deep here. It really, really does. It's incredible.

Rodney Veal  22:48

I absolutely, I second that I know from my first hand experience, I I've said that too. Like, wait a minute, what do you mean? Your first grant? What your first fellowship? I've had three. What do you like? And I think that's something new that's really telling and important for our audience to understand about Dayton is it's not just the artists that we see on the stage, it's the environment, it's the ecosystem, but the ecosystem is so ridiculously healthy in terms of audience, support, money and resources, the resources that you have easy access to, and that, and that's a it's an issue. And this gives a nice segue into this conversation about the Dayton box society, because I You're absolutely right. I think could a Dayton? Could a box society? Could our community support another box society? Yeah, but I don't see I'm saying. I don't I don't think it's a question of quantity. It's a question of quality, and it's a question of marshaling the resources wisely. And so, when did you take over as as the artistic head of of date Bucha society? What was that like? Yeah,

Dr. David Crean  23:59

I took over in the summer of 2022 for for John Neely, who had been the director since, I think, 2002 or 2003 so this, this the current group is the box Society of Dayton. There was a predecessor group called the Dayton Bach society. The Dayton box society ceased operations in the early 2000s and then the box Society of Dayton was born as a separate organization out of those, those choristers. So, so John was technically the first music director of the reconstituted Fox Society of Dayton. And I'm the I'm the second. I'm in the middle of my third season. Now, we just had a performance this past weekend. Yeah,

Rodney Veal  24:33

so and so, what is it like to kind of Marshal that read this reconstituted sort of organization, I mean, and you do have tremendous amounts of support in the community, but there's a tremendous amount of respect for the artistry and the caliber of what you are producing. So kudos to you in that regard. So I wanted to have this conversation with you about this sort of artistic outlet. This, this place that where music, where that's you guys are playing and performing in spaces that allows for, I think, a an entry, a sort of accessibility. And I hate that word, because sometimes it gets abused, but it's, it's you're allowing for the music choices to breathe in a different way, in a different context, with your music selections. And so I'm kind of curious about that. I mean, you have this, you have this hat chair for creativity in this, in this realm, what makes what's your what's what excites you about the what you're programming for, the Dayton box Society of Dayton, the box study of Dayton. I mean, I mean, it's got to be a thrill. I mean, I because I love choreographing. I'm such a Yeah, I get to Yeah. It's gonna save the voice.

Dr. David Crean  25:57

It's amazing. I mean, the the choral repertoire is so rich and so diverse, and we're so incredibly lucky to have the support of the community to be able to do things with with big orchestras. You know, we typically now do two concerts per season with a big orchestra. For a while it was only one, but we're, we're pretty solidly at two now, and we've been able to do that because of the support of the community. So bringing pieces like the birds and Chichester songs that we did this weekend, that was the first time, that was the first time that group had ever done that really hadn't been, yeah, done in Dayton for a while, but it's, it's a pillar of the 20th century core repertoire, and I was so happy to do it with them. They did such a wonderful job. But, yeah, planning, planning music is one of my favorite parts of the job. It really is, because there's such a rich Trove to go through. Yeah, next year we've got some some really wonderful things lined up, high mass, our usual Christmas programs that's really beloved. So our schedule is not sufficiently released yet, so I can't go into great detail. I

Rodney Veal  26:58

won't, I we won't do a, you know, an embargo on information, but it is, but that, but it, but I will say, I mean, like that, excitement is, is palpable. I mean, it's, it is, there is a rich repertoire things that could and should be performed in the region. And I think you're helping the kind of you and your the organization are helping to do that, and was that one of the reasons why you took the position? I mean, I mean, if I were given the keys to the kingdom of running a ballet company, I'd be like, Oh, these are the things, this is what we must do, you know,

Dr. David Crean  27:35

yeah, I mean, you know, who wouldn't want to take over a successful performing arts organization? You know, with a rich history of serving the Dayton region, we feel kind of an interesting, an interesting niche here in the community, people that sometimes ask us how we're different than the DPO or the DPO chorus. And there, the DPO is an orchestra that sometimes uses a chorus. We're a chorus that sometimes uses an orchestra. So choral music is really our, our main thing, whereas the DPO is primarily an orchestra that occasionally needs a chorus. It's it's been wonderful, and I'm so happy to be able to do it.

Promo  28:11

I'm Bonnie miles, membership coordinator of CET. Thank you for listening to Rodney veils, inspired by this podcast is a production of cet and think TV to local PBS stations, as PBS stations, the work we do online, on air and in the community is supported by listeners like you. If you're enjoying the show and would like to support our work, please consider becoming a member at CET connect.org or think tv.org Plus, when you sign up to donate at least $5 a month, you'll get access to special members only streaming videos on the PBS app through passport. Learn more at CET connect.org or think tv.org If you're

Rodney Veal  28:52

enjoying this conversation, the art show, also hosted by Rodney veal, is available to stream anytime from anywhere on YouTube or the PBS app I was thinking about music, and then I was doing, I was doing research into it. And one of the things that struck me, and this is may seem odd, but it doesn't, because I'm always, I'm always curious about the fact that on your it was, it was on one of the websites, and it said little known facts about me is that you've watched every Simpsons episode up to date, and I laughed, and I laughed out loud because, because a lot of times we always think of like, especially in the arts, there's this perception that we're all very studious and we're focused and we're hyperly engaged in the language and the making of art and art making. But you know, we do love a good relaxation, laugh at the same time. So is that your kind of like, your, your go to to kind of like, because this is a lot. I mean, you know, when there's a lot, yeah,

Dr. David Crean  29:55

yeah. I mean, but between the radio station and box society and my church job, it doesn't you. It doesn't leave a lot of time for for watching The Simpsons anymore. I'm afraid that statements not actually true anymore. It was true maybe four or five years ago, but oh, that

Rodney Veal  30:08

that hurts me. I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's all right. No, I mean, you gotta give yourself some breathing room. So having

Dr. David Crean  30:15

having a and having a two year old now, you know my my TV watching tends to be centered around Mr. Rogers, nah.

Rodney Veal  30:24

Oh, our staple here PBS, which is, you know, oh, without a doubt, but no, but I but, you know, having a two year old is it is its own diversion, in the most in a pleasant way as well. But I just thought that was really amusing. I just thought, okay, okay. Duly noted, there's moments where you must have levity in life. And one of it's really interesting, because there was, I was thinking about you, because we have sort of like this person that we were pursuing as a podcast guest, and that's Nancy Cartwright, who does the voice of arts. Oh, yeah, of course. She's from Kettering, and she's going to they're giving her a Nancy Cartwright day in September. So keep that on your radar. There might be a chance to to meet the Meet the lady who voices.

Dr. David Crean  31:12

That would be awesome.

Rodney Veal  31:16

That's I'm living for that one as a dream. But I just thought that was really interesting, because I think every person I've talked to, and like I said, I need these conversations. Downtime is critical. And I don't mean you have a two year or do you have this job, you have this job, you have this job. So are you giving yourself? I don't want to sound like a therapist, but to give yourself enough downtime, because listening to sound is is a very physically taxing thing, because I you know, and the reason why I know it, this is from my limited experience of it, because I'm listening to music to discover if I can choreograph to it, if it's speaking to that. And so I have to listen intently for nuances. And so, you know, shifts within the color of the music and are is that what you do when you're thinking about it, when you're thinking about doing your the repertoire for for the organization? Do you just, do you listen to everything before you play it? Do you especially, even as a DJ. I mean, so, so is doing it on a radio station? Are you listening to everything before you play it?

Dr. David Crean  32:27

Yeah, absolutely, wow. Need to know about it before you can say something about it.

Rodney Veal  32:32

Yeah.

Dr. David Crean  32:33

I mean, you know, at this point I, you know, I've, I've been a musician for long enough, and I've been in this career long enough that I've, I've heard a goodly portion of what we play on a daily basis multiple times. So there's, there's not too much that comes across the playlist that I haven't heard before. So, yeah, but it's, it's, it is a lot of listening. You're right. You know, I, before I pick up anything for box society, I always listen to it to make sure that it's something that I think will land with, with state and audiences. You know, it was things that you think will connect with the audience, not that are just interesting to you personally, yeah, so that, yeah, that that is a lot of intensive listening, for sure. And you're right. It is it, is it is physically taxing. It's mentally taxing too, to be an attentive listener, to not just have it kind of on in the background while you're doing while you're doing other stuff.

Rodney Veal  33:29

Yeah, and it's a good because I know people always want to use, I mean, there are a lot of, you know, like scientific studies about the about classical music and music in general, being a real catalyst for intellectual engagement and growth in young people. But it does. It goes beyond just that. I mean, it can be very it's to me, it's very satisfying. I mean, I always think about, I think about the pieces of music that I absolutely adore and love, and, you know, I'm, I Jones out on David diamond. I mean, I've just said, as a composer, is just who

Dr. David Crean  34:10

that is not a name I expected you to drop today. No,

Rodney Veal  34:13

no, no, no, I I dig, and I was, you know, and that's what you do. Like, yeah. I so I'm kind of curious. I mean, because for me, I was like, I don't even know which realm to genre of possible composition is. I mean, I I knew he was in my brief and I hope I get this right. I think with David diamond, he was kind of in that Ravel sort of genre, time period, early 20th century. Yeah, a little bit later, but kind of that just allegedly a through line. I'm, I'm still, you know, like I said, I was, I was learning, but yeah, yeah.

Dr. David Crean  34:58

I mean, there's, there's nothing new under. The son, everything is connected to what, to what came before. They're very few. They're very few musicians whose work is completely unprecedented and not connected to something that they, that they they experience themselves growing up.

Rodney Veal  35:13

Yeah. And then one of the things as a choreographer finding a piece of music that has to be choreographed to by George Balanchine, because you will be unfairly compared. And so therefore, why bother? It's like, Yeah, well, he chose the good stuff, the great stuff, the great and left us with rest. And we have to dig as choreographers. And so you also write about music as well. Do you still write? I mean,

Dr. David Crean  35:37

I do, yeah, mostly my writing these days is restricted to program notes, sometimes liner notes. I did, I did write a book a couple of years ago during the during, actually, before the pandemic, I was hired to write a book by the the formerly Crystal Cathedral in California. Now it's Christ cathedral. They, they put a large amount of money into restoring their incredible pipe organ, which is one of the largest in the world, and they wanted a book to document its history to be available for the rededication the project. The project got, it got considerably sidetracked by COVID. It was supposed to be the rededication was supposed to happen in May of 2020, so, you know, you know that didn't happen. We

Rodney Veal  36:21

know that did not happen at all. So you so the book is published. It

Dr. David Crean  36:27

is. It's available, yeah, I think at this point it's available only from the cathedral. I think it's sold out on the publisher's website. Wow, I actually don't have that many copies left myself, actually. But yeah, no, it was a, it was a great project. One of my former colleagues from Julliard is the music director out the music director out there, so that's how that connection came about. But yeah, I do love to write. I always love to write. I've always thought if I, if I weren't a musician, I would want to be, I would want to be doing something with with words, wow,

Rodney Veal  36:54

yeah, it's really interesting, because I think I interviewed an artist who's from, not originally from Dayton, but she moved here she was when she was 12, Peter Coyne, and she talked about, a lot of her work is literary references. And so she said, had I not chosen to be a visual artist, I would have, I would definitely have probably been a writer. And it seems to be that writing seems to be this number one sort of through line for just not visual artists, but dancers. I didn't think I was a great, a competent writer until grad school myself. Personally, sure I just did not like my writing. I'd hoard it. So how do you like, you know, was that always a, you know, we have these skill sets, but did you recognize writing as a skill set going through or was it just you fell into it because, because you're in academia, because you are going through your undergrad Master's

Dr. David Crean  37:52

kind of, yeah, you know? I mean, you're expected to do a copious, especially in grad school. Juilliard is a it's, it's a DMA, so it's essentially a performance degree, but there's also a significant dissertation requirement. But you mentioned when we first started dance and music being ephemeral, and I think one of the reasons artists tend to be attracted to written word is because it's not ephemeral. It's, it's, there's, there's an actual object that's there once you're done, you know, and I think that's that that's really attractive to me personally, is, is having some tangible product once you've put in all of this effort, right? Right? Rather than a, rather than a performance that's maybe, maybe documented in audio or video, but, yeah, but it's not the same. I hate, I hate listening to her watching my performances. So I'm never gonna go back and listen to

Rodney Veal  38:45

her watch that. No, I totally agree with that. I've never watched myself dance ever. Yeah, I refuse. I don't need that. I don't need that. But

Dr. David Crean  38:55

I do. I do. I do occasionally go back and look at and look at my my writing, and that that does some joy, so that that permanence, I think, is maybe what makes it attractive for people like musicians and dancers, who don't often have a tangible product of their labor.

Rodney Veal  39:11

No, no. And I Yeah, and I have started to kind of wish I hadn't denigrated my own writing until later in life. Because I think there would have been, I think it would have been an interesting journey, parallel journey to it. And so, you know, because this thing is, you know, this show is about inspiration. I was kind of my, my curiosity, because it feels like you've got a full plate. It's not I based upon

Dr. David Crean  39:41

multiple pretty

Rodney Veal  39:43

darn full plate. Um, I

Dr. David Crean  39:44

think my thing, my partner, would tell you, it's probably too full.

Rodney Veal  39:49

I think we all hear that one. I think there's no but is that a condition I don't see out of curiosity. Is that a condition of us just being in the arts, just a sense that we. Must do versus not doing at all. Or, I mean, there are, but it's just something. This is something I don't know. It gets I can't say no, yeah,

Dr. David Crean  40:11

yeah, no. I think part of it is because, you know, when you're first starting out as an artist, you know you're working for pennies on the penny. So you you kind of have to take anything that comes your way, and it's hard to break out of that mental that mentality, even as you you hopefully grow up into a more secure financial situation. So I think a lot of us never quite lose that sense that we have to grab on to anything that comes our way. I'm trying. I'm trying to break out of them. Trying to say, to say no to things

Rodney Veal  40:39

if you, if you, if you master that, please share, please share your tools with me. Because

Dr. David Crean  40:44

I was looking, I'll be my next book if I figure that one,

Rodney Veal  40:48

and you would be a best seller in the arts world. Because we don't know how to say, no. It's like, because we that that feast or famine sort of mentality. The famine is, is always real. It's the hustle. It's the constant, like, I love you describe pennies on a penny on pennies. It's that's such a that is such a real statement for artists. But once we get to a certain a different place, it becomes readily apparent that, you know, I don't know, I mean, I just feel like it's like you've kind of grasped that it's that's behind you, and it served, and it served its purpose of being in the trenches, and so to speak. And so you're in this place, a very busy place. What would you say to someone who and I was because I was, because I always think there are a lot of parents who listen to this. I think there are a lot of people who are connected to others, who are in the arts, who try to be supportive, but they don't really understand, or know, what would you say to them about this world of music and and dropping and jumping into it, into the

Dr. David Crean  41:58

to parents?

Rodney Veal  42:00

Oh, absolutely. I just think there's something to be said, even the art makers themselves,

Dr. David Crean  42:06

yeah, gosh, I don't know if there's ever been an easy time to be an artist, but it's a hard time to be getting into the arts. You know, so much, so much talk in education, so much money in education goes to the STEM fields. Every everything is stem everything is science, technology, engineering and math. That's, you know, that stuff is important, obviously. But, you know, the arts are important too. And I think oftentimes, as artists, we do ourselves a disservice by the way we talk about our art. You know, musicians have kind of gotten it into our heads that if we, if we promote music as a way to get better at other things, that maybe our funding won't be cut, or maybe people will support us. So, you know, you hear a lot of studies about, you know, you're listening to Mozart will make your baby a genius. Listening to music will make you better at math. It'll make you better in science, that's possibly true. But when you when you talk about art and music that way, you what you're implicitly doing is setting it up as as a secondary pursuit, something you do to get better at something else, not something that's worthwhile to do in its own right. And I think that's a real problem in how we promote the arts and how we talk about it, is that we're not bold enough to say this is important in its own right. It's not important because it makes you good at science or math or engineering or anything. It's important because art is intrinsically important. There's a famous Oscar Wilde quote that I first heard when I was a college student, and I was initially really offended by it. The quote is, is all art is quite useless. And when I first read it, I was like, that's, that's, that's ridiculous. Why would, why would an author, why would an artist ever say something like that? But as I got older, and the more I the more I kind of ruminated on it, it's completely it's completely right in the sense that that Art cannot be put to a use for something else, or should not be put to a use for something else. It's not utilitarian. It's It is its own thing. It's important because, because of what it is, whether you want to say it's important because it's what makes us human, or what makes us empathetic, or however you want to frame it, it is intrinsically important. So I guess I would say to parents with anybody interested in going into the arts is be sure that they believe that, but for be sure that they believe that what they're doing is intrinsically important and not a path to get better at something else. And I would furthermore say that be sure they are 100% committed to it, because if you're not, you just have no chance if you're not willing to devote years and years of your life to getting proficient at this, you're just you're not going to make it. Or you. You Won't you or you won't make it in a way that's particularly fulfilling for you, you know, you hold right, right? That's repetitive and tedious. So that's a tough question, right? Gonna be hardballs in this situation. No, no,

Rodney Veal  45:17

no, but it's, but it's, but it's a true. You are saying it's absolutely right, because everyone has said it. Everyone has, you know, we're in our third season of the podcast, and I'm seeing these through line trends. Of you gotta want to do this. Every person.

Dr. David Crean  45:33

If I could sum it up in one sentence, I would say, Do not go into the arts casually.

Rodney Veal  45:39

There you go. That's, I think that's a, that's a great summation of it, because it is not a call. This is, it's not a casual proposition. I mean, I always tell people all the time. I mean, you know, you know the rigor of of the proficiency in music, in the rigorous reformation of the body and dance, the rigorous sort of accumulation of technical tools as visual artists, the vocabulary that one must possess as a filmmaker. I'm thinking about all these people that we've had these conversations with along the lines is that very situation where you have to believe intrinsically you said, this has its own value. And you just you got to trust it. You got to trust because there is no gold. There's no there's not a pot of gold at the end of it, I think that's part of the other part of the equation is that people think that the proficiency leads to wealth, financial wealth. I'm like, Well, I would love for that to have been the case. You would all would love that to be the case, but I don't think that's the wealth that is intended to give you, not

Dr. David Crean  46:47

for not for most people. No, I sometimes tell organ students that the organ is a great way to make a little bit of money and a terrible way to make a lot of money.

Rodney Veal  46:59

Yeah, yeah, the ballet dancers are no different. We have a limited shelf life. We you know, if you're lucky, 10 years 1515, is genius. 2020. Is you're beyond genius. You're legendary.

Dr. David Crean  47:13

That takes such a toll on the body.

Rodney Veal  47:16

Oh, I, I will. I will have a hard time standing up from this year, after this, this conversation, I will, you know, I let people know that for sure, but it's just that sort of, that hardball question is kind of this sort of the getting at of this, this idea, this idea that this world is the art itself has a fulfilling sort of quality to it that goes beyond utilitarian and and, yeah, we could, like I said, we could, you know, quibble about money and lack of money, but at the end of the day, I don't think we would choose any other pathway. I definitely was never going to be an NBA basketball star. So that was, that, was that that was completely, that dream was shattered. Um, nor did I want it to be that my, that was my dream. But here we are. So, I mean, the thing is, you, you know, I was, this is not a horrible question, but it might be, I don't know, is this question of, if you had your dream concert for the box Society of Dayton. Like nothing's nothing is a limitation, no limitations whatsoever to and we know what those limitations are. What would that what would that concert look like? What would it be? What would be on it? Oh, that was a hard bar question. I'm so sorry.

Dr. David Crean  48:43

No, no, it's a good question. You know, for me, the top of the mountain, as far as choral music, is the B minor Mass, which is a piece that the group has done several times already and will do again, probably in a couple of years. So, you know, it's, it's a very attainable dream. In that regard, there are, there are other pieces I would love for us to do, like Elijah the great oratorial by Mendelssohn, or the creation by Haydn. Those, I hope, are going to be down the line at some point. The main challenge there is space, our usual performance, then you can't really accommodate, acquire our size along with an orchestra the size that those pieces require. So that's, yeah, the logistics of that are kind of a work in progress, but I'm hopeful someday that will make both of those happen. The will is certainly there, and the organization is financially healthy enough to do it. It's just a matter of figuring out where and when. So, yeah, it's, I'm very, I'm very lucky. You know, I don't have any all my, all my dreams as far as a musician, as far as a conductor of choral music, are very, very attainable, nice.

Rodney Veal  49:51

I like that. That's a really good, yeah, yeah.

Dr. David Crean  49:56

I mean, I mean, in a lot of ways, this, this job, in general, was. Was a dream. You know, I grew up. I grew up singing in choirs. All my degrees are in Oregon, but I I studied conducting, choral conducting substantially in school. And I always, I always wanted to lead a group that that could do big, big works with orchestra, Major, oratorios and cantatas. And I never, I was never really sure it was going to happen until it did. So it's another one of those things. I think maybe, maybe only in Dayton could it have happened for me. Because, you know, in New York, when a job like the box society opens, there's 500 applicants, all of whom have doctorates in coral conducting, and, you know, CVS, that are 20 pages long. But it happened for me, because I was in date, I couldn't be more grateful that it did

Rodney Veal  50:53

well, we could, we could be more grateful. So thank you for the dream. Sort of the place was the hook, but the, but the the manifestation of great music and sound is happening. So it's really cool. It's really, really

Dr. David Crean  51:10

cool. It's great. It's wonderful. I don't, I don't, I don't take it for granted ever. It's a wonderful opportunity. I'm lucky to be lucky to be pursuing, yeah, and we're just, we're in a great place as an organization, we've got a wonderful board where we're financially solvent, you know, we're not having to go through the couch cushions to balance the budget at the end of the year. So it's, we're in a great place, and the public has supported us really wonderfully. So, yeah, everything, everything looks, looks bright for the future. We've even, we've even, we've got, we've had a couple of new initiatives this year that I'm really proud of, one of which is, is offering, uh, complimentary childcare for both rehearsals and concerts. Nice to try to attract younger singers, as well as as younger audience members for whom that's, that's maybe an impediment, is having to find and pay a babysitter. So I'm really, I'm really proud that we're doing that. I think that, I think that's gonna become more common, yeah, the near future. I think, as it should, we're gonna, we're kind of on the cutting edge of that

Rodney Veal  52:17

well, you know, and that is, honestly, that is taking consideration of the humanity of the people that are involved. I mean, it is this is why, if, yes, it's art, the arts are not utilitarian, but the present presentation and the ability to participate can be, if you like, you know, if you can make the environment so it's conducive to do so, and one of the is childcare, you know, we know this. We absolutely know this. I think you and the human race theater company have a really good, good track record on that. So, hint, hint, other arts organizations make that consideration please.

Dr. David Crean  52:57

Yeah, I think it really does. It really does move the needle for people. I mean, we had, we had about a dozen kids in our childcare room on Sundays. Wow,

Rodney Veal  53:06

that's really cool. It's good thing. Well, keep doing the cool things and the amazing things you're doing. And with the with music and sound and welcome, you're now officially a daytonian.

Dr. David Crean  53:21

This is, yeah, this was, this was the last box to check. This was just being on your show, and I'm official.