Musician Nicole Zuraitis

Rodney Veal interviews artist Nicole Zuraitis, a Grammy-winning jazz vocalist and composer, about the challenges of breaking genre boundaries and the importance of persistence in the arts.

Learn more about the Nicole Zuraitis on her website: https://www.nicolezmusic.com/

Follow Nicole on Instagram: @NicoleZMusic

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Nicole Zuraitis, Rodney Veal

Rodney Veal  00:00

Hello, everyone. This is Rodney veal. The host of Rodney veal is inspired by and today, our guest on the show is someone that I just met, but I did my homework and my research. She is a fabulous songwriter, composer, arranger, Grammy Award winning artist, super cool and loves to protect the environment, which I love that about her. Nicole zoritis, nailed it high, right? Yes, yeah, I love it. I love it. Nicole, thank you so much for doing this, because I know that you're performing tonight. So, you know, the fact that, like, you know, I get it, you know, you got to do prep for performing. But what's super cool to me is the fact that I love, there was a moment, but we're going to get to the Hot Tub Time Machine moment in a second. But there was something, and there was, there was a small documentary film, and I saw online where you said, Yeah, I applied for the Sarah von vocal competition. And I love this about the fact that probably shouldn't have talked about Van Halen and the pretenders. I thought to myself, yeah, don't anchor the jazz purist.

Nicole Zuraitis  01:15

Thank you. We're gonna go there immediately from the Geico. Let's go. Is

Rodney Veal  01:22

that that is a, is it? Is just, is it? In the music world, it's the same thing, like in the visual art world of the dance world, there are people like, do not cross streams.

Nicole Zuraitis  01:34

Wow. I love that we're going there, because this is something I'm extremely passionate about now that I've found a little bit of footing in my own confidence, because for the majority of my life, I didn't have any confidence in myself. So when I was creating very unique art, and it wasn't getting a lot of traction, instead of looking inwards and saying, I believe that this is good, I was looking outwards and assuming that it wasn't good because it wasn't getting traction. And so that has changed a little bit in me. And so now I can speak very freely about what you just mentioned, which is like the purest issue and the boxing of art. Okay, go, go. What I find, especially in this 92nd world that we live in, the Instagram and Tiktok world of 90 seconds is that everybody has an attention span of 30 to 90 seconds. And so as that started taking off, and people started taking off through social media, you know, it really was, was wild for me to think that the music that I was making, had had legs to stand on. And so when we live in this world of 30 to 90 seconds, it became very restrictive for unique artists who who have a lot to say in a lot more time. And so I started to look at how my art could level up against, you know, a playlist algorithm, as opposed to what I just wanted to create. And that's how, how love begins, was created. I wrote the music within a box, because jazz, for so many years, kind of said she's not really a jazz singer. She's a rock singer. She likes Van Halen. She says it out loud. She, she loves blood, sweat and tears. She loves Stevie Wonder. She She loves classical music, and she plays the trombone and she plays the piano. We don't know what to do with her. And so it was really tricky for me for so many years, because I was doing the most difficult thing, which was writing music that was original to me, that nobody can compare what I sound like to someone who's already existed, and when there's no comparison to be made. Oh, she doesn't sound like Ella, she doesn't sound like Sarah, she doesn't sound like Carmen, she doesn't sound like Anita. So where are they going to put me? It's a very hard thing for them to for them, for people within this jazz, especially in other genres, other genres, yeah, when there's no comparison, they don't know what to do. But I think that there's so much beauty in the cracks, and that is where the true innovation happens for music, that is

Rodney Veal  04:18

and arts. And it was so true, it's not what I discovered as well. And you know that similar sort it's in the cracks, it's in the it's and that categorization. I mean, how often do we have these conversations with somebody who's in another art form where we share, we spill, we spill the tea? Yeah, there's some purists who it's it's everywhere. I'm here to tell you Nicole is every art form, and every artist I've ever talked to on the show has always been that question, what you don't really fit in this box? You're not quite and and they would, and they always when they finally made the decision to say, I'm not going to worry about the box. I'm not going to worry about trying to be categorized. I'm going to do my stuff. I'm just gonna do it right. That's when the breakthroughs happen, right? And that provides the most joy. And so

Nicole Zuraitis  05:05

it's also the most scary footing, because when I, when I adhere to the box, and I, and I, like, won a Grammy, I was like, Oh, that's so strange. But then I'm writing music that, again, is nebulous in genre, and I feel like I'm taking away the rug that I that I built for myself to finally stand on, and I'm like pulling it again. But the interesting thing for me is that even after I was given this accolade of, like, best jazz Vocal Album, you know, I didn't write the album. Think I'm gonna win a Grammy. That's ridiculous. No one actually as an independent artist, you know,

Rodney Veal  05:45

and no one ever thinks about winning like because I always use the phrase Chase excellence, not gold.

Nicole Zuraitis  05:51

Oh, I love that. And so

Rodney Veal  05:53

you're not, you're not. I took it like we're not, we're not here. That's not my that's not our agenda, that's not your It wasn't your agenda, and then this happens. And so, you know, I just, I just love that. I just, when I said, I laughed, I love when he's in Finland pretenders. I'm like, Oh my God, I want to add that back into my playlist as I'm making my art, because Nicole, Nicole's in that world as well. And I mean, did you always know music was your thing? Like, me, just like I said, Hot Tub Time Machine. Now, yeah, a lot of, I mean, it just starts, when did it? When did that? When sound, especially sound that's a different especially vocals. When did you go, Oh, this is this beautiful land with a yellow brick road that I want to be

Nicole Zuraitis  06:39

in. I love that I always leaned on music for to, like, help heal me, even from like, a young age. And the strange thing is that, like, I could not actually phonate my vocal cords the way that I wanted to at a young age. I wanted to sing Whitney Houston. I wanted to be the lead in the musical. I wanted to build. I couldn't actually make that sound with my voice. It just didn't do it. So I always had this big dream that I was singing for big audiences and being, I don't know, the center stage, but what I was actually living was, you know, being the funny friend or playing the trombone and being an awkward teenager, middle schooler, but the music part was so easy for me, like hearing harmony, playing by ear, acting, it was just that always came so easy. And so that's why I chose to do music for a living, because I thought, if I get a gift from whoever, we get gifts for, you know, God, the Almighty, whatever we want to call it, it would be such a waste to not pursue it, at least give it the good old fashioned try. So that's, that's why I decided to pursue music. I'm 40 now. Oh, still doing the thing. Hey,

Rodney Veal  08:02

you're rocking it as someone who just turned 60, keep it

Nicole Zuraitis  08:06

going. Okay. I wish I was a choreographer, because if I look like it when I'm 60,

Rodney Veal  08:12

I am grateful for the gene pool. I thank you Sherman and Lewis. I thank them every day. And so this one, because the thing is, it's not even just that you pursued it and like, but do you also talked about the fact that you were a, what was the phrase recovering opera singer? I did do my homework. I really did. It's like, That is hilarious to me. Like your language. I was like, I love this interview, recovered opera singer. So did you go to school and train?

Nicole Zuraitis  08:46

Oh, yeah, wow. So that same voice that I mentioned that wanted to build and be the star really did well with classical training, and I was super fortunate to have a wonderful voice teacher that lived in my in my hometown, that my parents had me work with. Her name was Laura Mashburn, and she was focused on the health of the voice, not the end goal. She was like, how do we build you a strong foundation? And through her training, I suddenly was like, excelling at classical music. And there's always going to be a little thread through this interview of me having doubt within myself. And so I was like, Well, I'm doing really well in classical maybe I'll be an opera singer. Next thing you know, I'm at NYU studying to be an opera singer full time. Had another amazing voice teacher there, Diana Heldman, I did programs in Italy as a scholarship. It was just like a wild little piece of my life. Six years of my life, I was like, I'm an opera singer now, but I was always practicing in the in the in the back rooms, in the practice rooms like Carole King songs and Nina Simone and. Oh, my teachers would walk by and go, What are you doing? You can't sing both because the techniques are different. Okay,

Rodney Veal  10:09

I do understand. Explain that, because I think a lot of people don't really,

Nicole Zuraitis  10:13

yeah, like the the classical voice is meant to be sung unamplified, whereas the Jazz Pop that you sing it into a microphone, and so you're using the internal structure of your mouth, right and your vocal cords in completely different ways. So the big turnaround for me was I was a year out of college. I had to move home to be a waitress because it was too expensive to, you know, take voice lessons and try and do young artist programs. We just don't come from money. So, like, you have to just figure it out. So come home.

Rodney Veal  10:52

Yeah, those, those are practical considerations. You probably have parents like mine who were like, Okay, are you gonna start paying for yourself? Exactly

Nicole Zuraitis  10:59

done now, and I went back. I was cast in a show, and then I went back the next year, and I had been doing a lot more jazz show, because the jazz shows were paying me money. I was being paid to sing the Great American Songbook in the back of a restaurant or in the back of a pizza parlor. I would get 50 bucks and a pizza, and I was like, This is awesome. And I'm doing tons of jazz, and then I go back the next year, and the in, the in, the guy, the same director, is like, what happened to your middle voice? Because I was singing like, Buddha lady instead of, oh, you know, it's like a completely different vibe. And they were like, what's happened? Like, what has happened to you?

Rodney Veal  11:45

Turn to the other side. I mean, yeah, that's not the wildest thing. I mean, I just, I just, we're good

Nicole Zuraitis  11:57

Midwestern weather. It's weird. It's like, I'm like, Damn having allergies? Yeah,

Rodney Veal  12:01

we call it sinus Valley. We Okay. Is real? They just got back from Palm Springs, and I was, like, clear, and all of a sudden, yeah, I'm like, two days after I come back. What the heck is this crap that makes me feel a lot better? I need to get back to Palm Springs. Well, can't afford it, so so this is this, so you're like, you're gigging, you're doing that thing that, like, I think every artist, especially music artists, and did you think, and then you talked about the demon of doubt. Do you think? Were you thinking, Okay, I'm only doing these type of gigs, is, is this really a life? Is this really the pathway? I mean, we like, what's going in your head? I

Nicole Zuraitis  12:48

thought that that way for like, 13 years, as I did those five nights a week. I would, I would always think, is this, is this it? This is, this is what I'm doing here. But then I would always think about this ladder theory that I kind of invented in my brain. And the latter, the Ladder Theory is, I'm intrigued. It was like the way to think about things in a hopeful way, is that when I moved back to the city in 2009 and I decided I was no longer an opera singer, and I wanted to try my hand at being a jazz quote, a jazz singer. So I moved and I didn't have any work, so the first step in the letter was find a job. So I was a hostess at Sarah Beth's. And then the next step in the letter was like, okay, find a job within music while still saying staying at Sarah Beth. So I started teaching music, driving door to door, while also teaching at Sarah Beth. I was like, Okay, what if I got rid of Sarah Beth's and just did teaching and found another way. There's another letter step. So I was like, so I applied for a wedding band. Next thing, you know, I'm in a wedding band and I'm teaching. I was like, What if I get rid of the door to door teaching? The next step is, just do the wedding band, and then private lessons, and then, you know, step by step. I was like, well, now I really want to play at this club. So I want to play at the sugar bar on 72nd Street. Great. What's the next step from there? I want to play at Rockwood, down in and on the in the village. Okay, now what I want? I want a residency. Next step, 55 bar. Oh my gosh. I got 55 or residency. Yeah, I want to start touring. You know, it's just like, let's step, step, step, step. And so as I'm doing all these steps up the ladder, I was always still doing those background gigs, weddings, like I said, the restaurants. And the most beautiful part is there's two cool things that I want to tell you about those background gigs. One is the way that I met my producer, of how love begins, and the other one is how I got to Cincinnati in the first place. Oh God. They both came from the same background, really. So I played at the red eyed grill, which was across the street from Carnegie Hall. And I still haven't written the song, but it's supposed to be the girl who plays piano across from Carnegie Hall. I gotta write that

Rodney Veal  14:52

tune. I'm there for it. I'm there. I'm always in the

Nicole Zuraitis  14:55

background doing my thing. And the Sarah Vaughan competition had happened. And right before that, I was doing my thing in the background, there was this guy sitting at the bar, and he was like, I haven't heard someone saying spring are really hanging up the most in years. And I was like, Oh, you're a jazz fan. He's like, Yeah, you know, there's a great series that that I that I run at the Beringer Crawford Museum in Covington, Kentucky. You should come. So he ended up, his name was Mark. He ended up putting me in touch with the museum. I came, I played with a local, wonderful local guitarist, Brandon Coleman, and we ended up making a live record accidentally. So I have a live at the two headed calf record in the Beringer Crawford Museum and Covington, which is so funny from this, from this thing, right? And this one thing there's like, hey, yeah, and like and like through that. That's how I met Paulina from Xavier University. That's why I'm back here in Cincinnati to play the Hearth Lounge. You know, it's a beautiful, beautiful turn of events. And then the other side of the spectrum was right after the Sarah Vaughan competition, which you mentioned, which I again, didn't win, but I placed. And as a former opera singer, I remember getting into the Sarah Vaughn competition and going, Wow, that's not bad for an opera singer who

Rodney Veal  16:04

talked about Van Halen and pretenders. I can only imagine their faces like, oh, recoil,

Nicole Zuraitis  16:12

yeah. And I couldn't believe that they use that in the in the video part. I just couldn't, I couldn't believe that they use and then I get up and I sing like muddy water or something. And there's always looking for an excuse as to why. You know, if someone who, who's skirting outside of the box isn't fitting inside the box, like, well, that's because she's x y, that's because he's x y. And we can't have that. We can't do that too. Don't, don't pollute

Rodney Veal  16:36

it. Don't pollute the pool, which, so it's evolve, yeah, well, that's another guy. So one of the judges was

Nicole Zuraitis  16:44

Christian McBride. Won the most legendary bass player. Says, yeah, that's alive. And I didn't get to meet him. And I was like, Okay, well, that's it. I didn't win the competition. I placed whatever. I went right back to singing it the girl who sang piano across from Carnegie Hall at the red eyed girl I'm playing. It's a packed night. Nobody is listening. And so I was like, Okay, I'm gonna play night Tunisia. I barely know this too. And I started playing it. And I was like, Wow, it's so loud in here, no one's gonna even notice if I do the bridge again. So I started playing the bridge again, because I messed up the first time. And all of a sudden, I look up and Christian McBride is sitting right there staring at me, going, how do I know you? And I was like, Oh, my God, you're the most famous bass player in the world. He's like, I remember you from Sarah Vaughan. I remember you from the Sarah Vaughan competition. You sound really great. We should, we should connect. And so he gives me his number, and then we were friends for six years. Wow. I never asked him for anything. He'd always say, you know, we should do music together. And I was always under the impression that it's better to wait for the Ask than to ask before you're ready. So I just kept waiting. And then when the pandemic hit and I got my MBA of all things during the pandemic, I was like, I think now is the time for me to make the ask. So I said, Will you please make an album with me. And he said it would be my honor. So he CO produced my album how love begins, and that's the album that won the Grammy last year for best jazz Vocal Album. And I met him at the at the playing backgrounds. That's why I said, that's why I talk about those gigs all the time. They're the best, they're

Rodney Veal  18:18

the best, because truly, that's where I've met some really great people that I've collaborated with those it's always the side gigs, and no one side gigs, but that's our, that's our, that's our, that's our game this, I don't know the lack of a better word for it, but every artist and every art genre has to go through this world, that similar sort of thing, like, well, let me do the art fairs. Let me do then let me do the group shows. I love that Ladder Theory. I think everybody needs to hold on to that. You

Nicole Zuraitis  18:48

have to, because if you think you can just skip the line, that's where entitlement comes, and that's where you skip the most beautiful part, which I think, is the journey. I can't believe I just said that. That is so disgustingly positive, so gross. I felt the saccharine, I felt the saccharin, and that that made me want to throw up. But I really mean it. I do you mean it. That's what, that's what makes it great. And as I like, go back to my thing about the 92nd 32nd thing, what I'm like really thinking about lately is that we're launching so many careers based on social media, based on virality, based on the algorithm, and not based on anyone's journey. So some of these kids that are blowing up, they can they do a 90 minute set, or is it just a 92nd video? And what do they have to say for themselves, they haven't gone through anything at all in life. And I, which

Rodney Veal  19:46

adds to the texture of a voice, exactly, we do space paint on a camp. I just it adds I'm with you on the 30/32, 92nd even visual orders to doing it now.

Nicole Zuraitis  19:56

Yeah, exactly, yeah. Some of them are. Just natural geniuses, and some of them, the algorithm picked it up and I and it's hard to tell the difference these days. And it's, it's, it just takes away from, from those who are like trudging. And it also, I say those words out loud. I said, dude, does it make me sound bitter? Because I had to trudge for 20 years before I got recognition. It's not bitter. It's just, it's just an awareness that that things are things work much more against the artists favor these years and those who like the the data Lords and the algorithms choose, they might be able to skip the line, but skipping the line, it's like, what do you have to say for yourselves? You don't have anything to you don't have A body of work To show Yet you

Rodney Veal  21:59

and this isn't i to me, I think it's a danger of crashing and burning totally I'm like, why would you just slow your roll? Life didn't get the art making didn't get interesting until I was 40, yeah, and when I when I had to retire, my niece said you need to stop trying to do classical ballet, right? And I get it, I totally but then I was like, just then was like, I finally understood the artistry of performing that stop. But then I realized you don't have to stop. You can go into another because you're open to going, let's try this post modern world in grad school. I mean, I love that, see. So I think that's why, just so I fell in love with you instantaneously. I said, because it is about the journey. I think talk about that because I think, I think that needs to be so amplified to our, especially our, the audience that we speak to on the show, that it's unit for the long haul. Are you prepared to do sun up to sun down, the gigs, the teaching, then the ninth gig, then repeat, rinse and repeat,

Nicole Zuraitis  23:09

yeah. Are people ready for that? That's, and then the ones that that aren't ready? Yeah, it's, it's this word that always comes back to me, the the entitlement of of of deserving in an industry that is already inherently hard. So yeah, I know a lot of young students or a lot of musicians that I know that came from wealth would never be caught dead doing a wedding, because they would call it like a sell out, or they wouldn't be caught dead doing the background gig because it's not good for their brand. I'm like, well, that's real nice that you don't have to pay your bills because mommy and daddy are paying Are you kidding me? Some of us have to actually go and sing for our supper, literally. And you know what? Takes time singing for your supper. So that means that I don't have time to sit in front of a ring camera and make content all day because I have to pay my rent and so, so irritated by the entitlement that comes with, oh my god. People, now that I've had some success, are like, how did you How do I win a Grammy? Oh my god, well, and I'm like, I gas at myself so hard for an entire year from from feeling like it was, people were so surprised that an independent artist won over these, like, apparently famous jazz singers. I'm like, what makes anybody famous? First of all, it's jazz. Like, do me a favor. Like, it's not like, I beat lady gaga over here,

Rodney Veal  24:40

all of a sudden, he's like, Yeah, I need Beyonce

Nicole Zuraitis  24:46

saying, like, it's jazz. No one. We have a tiny little niche. It's there's plenty of room for everybody. Just relax.

Rodney Veal  24:54

Relax Absolutely. And so why don't why do people jump just like? I said, Chase excellence, not gold. Why? I don't understand. Why would anyone want an award anyway. I don't.

Nicole Zuraitis  25:06

I do don't want it. I promise you, you don't want it. Now that I have it, I don't want it. That was

Rodney Veal  25:11

what I talked to Hannah Bucha, who was a production designer on Black Panther. She's from Dayton, Ohio, okay, my hometown. I'm like, amazing, crazy. And she said the exact, it's like, the gold is not all it's cracked up to be, because there have been expectations. Then there are these things of you, she can't do the gigging jobs, correct? There's a there is something to be said. Once you start getting, once you have that, it's like, why are you? And then people question it. It's like, no, the music is the music. The dance is the dance. The production is the production we it's in our DNA. We were this is what we were meant to do. We are here. We're gonna do it, but that, it's not always the

Nicole Zuraitis  25:57

I miss the background gigs so much because, number one, they're fun, they're low stakes. I'm not in charge most of the time, you know, and the most important thing for me is that they're paid practice. I I was like, I'm being paid to practice every time I do a background gig at the piano and singing, because if it's low stakes, I can be experimentive. And so many of the arrangements that I've done have come from me playing in the back of a bar. And I'm not afraid to say that, like, apparently it's, yeah, somehow it's like, like, I can't believe that she has the audacity to admit that she likes Van Halen and she does weddings. Oh, my God, she's not deserved to have this success. She's a fluke. No, she's not a fluke. She's a force, just, just like, eat, eat what I'm serving to you. How many more times does someone have to prove themselves until people are like, Oh, she's Well, the thing is,

Rodney Veal  26:55

I listen to your music, and the one of the things I was listening to, and I realized, and you talked about wanting to be Whitney, and I, I thought there were little, these little R and B inflections in your voice, and then they were because, Oh, I see we're all we're all the the stew, all the parts of the stew, building, part of the soup comes through in your voice. I'm like, That's why, to me, it's like, well, it's in the end product. What's the problem? I'm not a musician, but I am an artist. I'm a human being. I can respond when things are done well, yeah, I think that's what it is when it's done well, and it's done within with the sort of the integrity that your approach to it. And what intrigued me was the fact that the inspiration for the album were the photographs of the environmental disaster in the Gulf. Talk about that, because I just that's layers. Yeah, there's layers. Layers

Nicole Zuraitis  27:47

that, yeah, well, I mean, every record I ever do, I have some sort of activism, whether it's mental health or animal rescue or or whatever. And so I was looking at how love begins, and I was looking at all the words, and I saw a lot of imagery of oil, water, fire, smoke, and I was like, this, this, this, there's a lot of disaster here, and it seems like oil and water, oil and water don't mix. Okay, that's a little cliche. Where else can I go with this when I was building it out, and then I started to look for oil and water paintings or photos. And I saw really beautiful things, you know, drops of water on a piece of concrete, you know, when it turns all rainbow colors. I thought that was beautiful. That was one of the options. And then I saw what I thought was a painting, and, and I looked at, I was like, wow, that is some beautiful colors. I've never seen colors like that. It's so amazing. And look at the boat in the middle of it. I can't, I can't get over it. And then I clicked on the image, and it was a aerial photograph by Daniel beltra, this, you know, award winning photographer of the Gulf of Mexico oil spill. And I was crushed by that, because I remember reading about the horrific environmental impact that that oil spill had and still has, and how it was completely just a human disaster. And I thought, Wow, this photograph is and all the the entire series is called spill, and it's a beautiful series, and all of them are just stunning. And I said some of the most beautiful things in life are also the most heartbreaking. And I was like, that's what this is. The album is about, you know? So it's part part one is how love begins, and part two is how love ends. And, you know, there's also a bonus track, or how it begins again, because you can't, you can't just think in like a triangle. You have to think secure secularly in a circle, otherwise you will fall into despair and forever. Yeah, like doom and gloom was like, I give up exactly. We got to think like a circle. Everybody it comes. Back around. So, yeah, I saw that, and I just kind of inspired the song, yeah, and I reached out to save the sound. Because where I live in Connecticut, I lived on, I live on Long Island Sound now, and, you know, it's a beautiful estuary that feeds the rivers of Connecticut, that's connected to New York, where I live for, you know, 20 years, and we did, like, a day of activism. And I still work with Save the sound, to just draw attention to the importance of especially our waters. You know, as we're sitting here in Cincinnati, as the waters are flooding, flooding, yeah,

Rodney Veal  30:34

we've dealt with that here internally, yeah, and, but that's such a then. That was another thing that was effective. You talked about, as artists, we're in service of this world we live in. It's not just the art, because the art is inspired is and then when you said about service, I said, that's what we're here for. We're servants on this planet, and we should be taking care of it. And so this question of activism as an artist, and that's when people always talk about artists should never be activist. Okay, no. Nina Simone, yeah, I'm gonna use her as my rock. Yeah, exactly. Harry Belafonte, Sidney, pordia, you know, come on, right, do the things that there are. There's a way to serve this world in a better way with our talents. And that does that give you that kind of resolve, that it's that this really beautiful album, which one Grammy, you know, it's, I mean, that you know, testimony, the fact that you know, some people said, talent, skill.

Nicole Zuraitis  31:38

There's depth, the depth, though, I love that. Thank you. So

Rodney Veal  31:43

how do you what do you say to artists who are constantly told not to speak up and speak out or use that to inspire their work? Well,

Nicole Zuraitis  31:51

I always say that art is best served with a side of activism, something I've really started to think about, and I try to do is to not make it a partisan issue with the activism that I choose something to act, I like to speak on behalf of things that everybody should care about, no matter what side of the fence you sit on. That's not to say that I don't believe in choosing sides, because I've never been one to sit the fence. But when it comes to trust me, like, know how I feel, whatever it is,

Rodney Veal  32:32

I love it. I love that.

Nicole Zuraitis  32:34

But when it comes to, like, my art and the way that I speak up, you know, I mean, like the environment is something that everybody should care about. It's not a right or left or anything. It's it's not a partisan issue. And the same thing goes with animal rescue, you know, right? Mental illness, you know, all these things, if you can think of them, from a way to unite people, as opposed to divide, because I feel like we're so divided as it is. I was just down in DC yesterday doing Grammys on the Hill, which is where creators in leadership roles and music professionals, we go down and we lobby Congress for different acts and bills to take place. And one of the congressmen, Dan Goldman, from New York, of all places, and also my district where I used to live in Park Slope, Brooklyn, he said that in such trying times, what he wants to remind people is that it's the issues that unite us is the only way for us to come back from the insane divide. And so arts education, arts funding, arts in general, is something that everybody should think about and benefit from. And so as an activist who actively tries to give back through my art. I try and keep that in mind as much as I can. Okay,

Rodney Veal  34:08

yeah, so it's a thing, so a little bit of a pivot, but it's still not you were teaching. I said, You do you taught. You were teaching. Are you still teaching at the same I mean,

Nicole Zuraitis  34:21

I'm barely I'm playing it on my poor kids, not like they listen to my my interviews, but if you listen, no, I um, yeah, I don't teach privately right now because The touring schedule is so bananas, that's impossible. And I let go of one of my university gigs, and I and I'm holding on to NYU. So I teach at NYU one day a week. And the beautiful thing about my NYU teaching and my students is that they're thrilled to have a teacher who's out there doing it. Yes. So they don't mind doing makeups outside of school hours, as long as you know they they want to see a picture of me at Capitol Hill holding a sign like, equal rights for musicians,

Rodney Veal  35:13

and be like, That's my teacher, because she's she's fighting, she's fighting a good fight. Because

Nicole Zuraitis  35:18

I grew up with such wonderful teachers. There's, there's this immense guilt that I feel when I'm touring. I'm sure that you can understand, Oh, my kids, I gotta go back to my kid. Yeah, because I had, I had educators that healed and also just gave me above and beyond the one hour lesson. So I think

Rodney Veal  35:43

that's a real shout out to teachers, because I really feel strongly about that. I love, you know, 60 so i The shocking thing is, having taught someone 40 years ago and their kids, I've taught their kids, wow. It's like, oh, oh, wow, that's so beautiful. Oh, you do this matters. And so I'm you kind of, you want to, you kind of want to make sure you do it right, because you don't, you don't muck up someone's that's something,

Nicole Zuraitis  36:11

especially in the arts, especially in your one thing. And you can ruin, ruin someone Absolutely.

Rodney Veal  36:16

And I want kind of curious, because, you know, like the demons of doubt. Whenever I have them or they're manifested externally, it's because of something someone said to me, correct? I was like, wow, I don't know if you like me. I I've held all of these

Nicole Zuraitis  36:34

comments words, but deep in modern

Rodney Veal  36:36

way that go, and I go, right? You gotta let go. Did I rise? No, because that is what fueled you to say, I'm going to show you this. I'm going to figure out how to get past this demon on my shoulder. Because my favorite phrase is, not today, Satan. I go, don't date

Nicole Zuraitis  36:53

Satan. No, not today, Satan. Oh, not today. Don't date Satan. I'm like because that's personal.

Rodney Veal  37:02

I Hey, folks, don't date Satan. I'm

Nicole Zuraitis  37:10

gonna write that song. If

Rodney Veal  37:14

your friends describe your day to Satan,

Nicole Zuraitis  37:17

maybe it's time to pull out. You might want to

Rodney Veal  37:20

rethink it. Is this gonna be long term?

Nicole Zuraitis  37:24

Okay? You said, Not today, not today.

Rodney Veal  37:30

Like I said, I have to have I firmly gotta have fun. You said, the industry is hard enough and the work is hard enough, so I better have some laughter. Laugh through it. Yeah, there are moments. There are moments. I so love it.

Nicole Zuraitis  37:48

I told my, I was just doing a speaking of teaching artists in residence in the Netherlands of all places. Wow. And one of the kids, you know, I told my my story, which essentially is just an epitaph of rejection, and then now only some great things that I and I'm not afraid to share the stories of the rejection, because I really believe that people need to hear that it's not all sunshine and rainbows and but it's also totally worth it, because you're doing what you're doing without having regrets and and one of the one of the kids said, like, now that you've told us your story, how did you keep doing it? Yeah, well, that's and back to what you just said. There's like, that, that voice, this, like, healthy dose of competition in my brain that was like, what? Like, who are you to say what someone can or cannot do? And like, you have to have at least enough belief in yourself that you that you go. Someone says, No, you go, thank you for your note. I'm gonna try again, but I'll try from a different angle. You know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over and again and expecting a different result. So every time I got a no, I would pivot. Every time I got to know how to pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot. And that's why I did it. I was in a folk band. I was in a rock band. It was in a blues band. I was doing, I was living in India. All of a sudden I'm teaching an odd meters, like I didn't know anything about anything. I just would pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot, yeah, yeah. I mean,

Rodney Veal  39:19

I mean, that's why that's what I got, is that this whole notion of pivoting, which is, yeah, who are they say, No, which is so bizarre. I remember my favorite, my favorite line, who's turned out to be one of my favorite people in the world. This professor at OSU, she said, you've gotten by in your considerable charm. We're gonna help you. I was like, wow, that

Nicole Zuraitis  39:44

is brutal. I was like, Whoa, it's a backhanded compliment. It's

Rodney Veal  39:49

a backhanded compliment. But it was like, Okay, you burned. Started digging deep, brother. It was like, it was I understood. And. I but I also understood that I have to be me. And so what is this journey of me, which is the hardest part when you're making art, which is an extension of you and all your life experience, and then someone's got to have a comment about it. So how do you deal with that? Because I, my response is like, now I'm 60, I don't care. I really,

Nicole Zuraitis  40:22

I know I a lot of it is whatever, ripping the band aid off like, how you become, you build, you build a tolerance to the to the Nate, to the to the pain eventually, because so many, how many more times can you rip a band aid before you're just like, Okay, well, whatever. There's still things that people say that will, that will really bother me, and mostly things that really bother me is when people take insult to character, as opposed I don't really care if you don't like my music and if you don't like my lyric writing, if you don't like the way that my voice sounds, but character, character is something that I really

Rodney Veal  41:04

that's a that's a tough one, that's a tough one. And I don't, and I, I don't think people really understand that you have to divorce the two. Yeah, when you're Be careful. I said to our to our audience, be careful with the things you say to our artists and art makers, because we are, we're so open. That's the hard part. It's like, Yeah, you don't understand how open I am right now. I am vulnerable. I'm exposed. When

Nicole Zuraitis  41:29

you, when you get to a level, going back to the awards thing, like, when you get to the level where you where you win an award, but you didn't, you know your people throw stones at people from the top, and there becomes a time where, where it used to just be like, oh, like nobody cares. Let's say you don't. You don't dig the way that I write, right? But now it's like, well, she only won because x or because she did X. And I'm like, wow, this is a completely different side of the industry that that people don't talk about because, you know, once you get to a certain level there it's it can be a really wild thing. So what I've done is just held on to the fact that the one thing in life that I do well and that I love to do is to create. So I've already written my next record. It's already coming out. I've released since how love begins. You know, multiple albums, and I don't put pressure on myself to have them be the next big thing, because if you put all your eggs into the basket and you only shoot for the gold as opposed to for the excellence, then you'll never, you'll never be happy again, and you'll just be pushing and pushing and pushing and just feeding the noise. So, you know, I released two things called, like, siren songs, which is just for fun, and I even put it on my website. I was like, just, so, you know, it's, this is not my big follow up. It's just, it's giving me joy, because that's what I do. I make music, and my husband's record that won the Grammy, again, I can't believe I say these things out loud for best large Jazz Ensemble. Yeah, that was just like, we were shocked. We were absolutely floored when we got nominated in two categories. We're like, but this is, this is when you, when you realize that the the naysayers are the small, tiny, little part, and they are only they're the loudest, but the silent majority are, are good, warm, amazing people who see you for who you are, and they

Rodney Veal  43:23

want you to succeed. It's beautiful. It is. And that's about, I mean, so it's not, we don't have to be afraid of the sin, the saccharine. I always thought, you know, a phrase I used to someone. We can, we can wallow in the cynicism, or I can prance around in joy. Yeah, I love it. Got two options here. I choose to prance.

Nicole Zuraitis  43:44

I love prancing. Yes, yeah. Like, why

Rodney Veal  43:47

you should? Why shouldn't you release a pop album? Why should you not? Why would you because I looked at some of the people like, you've like, you've done background we collaborated with, like Darren, Chris, Nikki Giovanni, which got me. I

Nicole Zuraitis  43:59

was like, Man, that was a real honor. And then to have her pass, oh gosh, she's such an icon. When, when Javon Jackson asked me to do that, it's because Nikki was supposed to sing those songs, and then she was not feeling well. This is at the beginning of when she was starting to not feel well over the summer. And so he called me, he's like, I really want to put this record out. Will you just come and sing these songs? And I was like, I cannot. I get to be on a record with Nikki Giovanni. This is, like, one of the greatest honors of my life, yeah, to have lost such a deeply, you know, beautiful artist, yeah, yeah,

Rodney Veal  44:36

that's the thing. It's real. And so do you always feel like you'd pinch yourself every time, just like this new experience, like you did that. This is, I thought, all the time,

Nicole Zuraitis  44:47

totally it absolutely outweighs all the negative feedback loop that has been going on in my brain for 20 years. These moments I go, wow, it was worth it. It's worth it. There's the journey. You know all the bumps, the journey, the journey, the journey, the journey, after the journey, it's always

Rodney Veal  45:05

about the journey. This is always about the journey. I love it. There's a person that we actually know in common. And I you played at the savannah Symphony Orchestra. Do you know Katara Harada? How do you know? Because he's a, he's a, he's a, he's the new conductor of the Dayton Philharmonic.

Nicole Zuraitis  45:24

Don't you dare Yes, I'm dead serious. We gotta send him a selfie. Yes,

Rodney Veal  45:29

we do, we, do, we, do, we do some of the board.

Nicole Zuraitis  45:33

Yes, I want to come sing with you.

Rodney Veal  45:36

I will. I as a board member. I as a board member. I put a good word in, but that's, but that's a part of the journey you on along the journey, it's time, just the making, it's the people you get to hang around. That is when I saw that, I was like, wait a minute, we know this same person, and he's the coolest dude. Yeah, he's very talented. He is very stylish, super stylish, like, you know, superficial, but, but he's super. He knows his stuff. No, he does.

Nicole Zuraitis  46:05

He is, but

Rodney Veal  46:06

he's also fun to be around. Yeah, he's

Nicole Zuraitis  46:09

ready for the party. We kept missing each other in Savannah. Now I know I gotta get out. You gotta

Rodney Veal  46:13

come to Jayden. You gotta come to Deacon. Come on. I'm ready. So we're gonna wrap this conversation up. I'm enjoying myself, but I know, you know, yeah, we had a

Nicole Zuraitis  46:25

show. I guess I gotta go get ready for my sing. I mean, that's I forgot. I gotta you got things to do, a TV interview this morning. Now I have you is just such a delay. And then I got a show, and at some point I'm gonna drink another cup of coffee, you will.

Rodney Veal  46:40

There's good coffee around here. Oh, good. But the I always like to ask because, you know, as because it's inspired by, what then, what would be your word of advice to anyone you get this last moment? Oh, gosh, I know I'm setting up as monumental I know, like, what would you say to someone who I always think about parents who are concerned about their kids, who say, I want to be a musician or dance or artist. And, you know, as an educator, I taught K through 12. So I taught in that world, I could see the hand wringing and the world, what would you what would you do to kind of calm? What would you say to them about this journey?

Nicole Zuraitis  47:24

There are so many jobs in the music industry to be had, even behind the scenes. That's just as important as the person on stage. There's you know going into the arts doesn't necessarily mean that you have to decide to be like the singer or the musician, like there's so many opportunities to live and work within the art space that are just as fulfilling as being a performer. So you know, when people talk down about going into the arts, it's like, oh, man, but there's so many opportunities to work and, you know, in music and film and TV and all that stuff. But the other thing I would say is that if you could see yourself doing anything else, you know, go do that and keep the joy of music, and don't feel like you fail just because you you didn't do it full time. Like, if you have a day job and you're doing music at night, you're still an artist. I really believe this with my full bones, like it goes back to what I was saying before about people looking down at you for doing weddings. It's like that was my day job. Like everyone has to do what they what they need to do to pay their bills. You're not less of an artist just because you do a day job. And the third thing I'll say is back to the journey. It's a marathon. It's not a sprint. So just keep to the path and keep pounding the payment. And then, you know, carve in your own lane and just do the thing that makes that brings you joy. That's it. That's all

Rodney Veal  48:59

and that was a Mic drop. You Nicole, I have had so much fun. This is a blast.

Nicole Zuraitis  49:05

Oh, great. I want to stay. We could stay forever.