Curator Jennifer Wenker

Rodney Veal talks with artist and curator Jennifer Wenker about the art of curation, the power of community, and the transformative role of art in society. Jennifer shares her journey from aspiring artist to museum curator, reflecting on the importance of curiosity, inclusivity, and collaboration in the creative process.

Learn more about Jennifer's work on her website: https://www.jenniferwenkerart.com

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Rodney Veal, Jennifer Wenker, Ad

Jennifer Wenker  00:00

You know, put some shows together. Get together with people that you that whose work you enjoy, if you've got classmates, colleagues, if you're have some art heroes, reach out, you know, and see if there's a way to, like, put some shows together. If you're still making art, start with your own shows, but maybe invite a person or two to be in a show with you. You can do house shows. You can rent spaces, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that either. I mean, you do your path, your way, and it doesn't have to be in a line for heaven's sakes. It's like, just have fun with it. There's no rules. You

Rodney Veal  00:44

Hello, everyone. I'm Rodney veal. I'm the host of Rodney veal is inspired by and today, I get to have a conversation with a true, true lover, lover of art and all things art, making an artist. She is the curator of the Springfield Museum of Art. We've known each other for a while, and she's a fascinating, dynamic, cool person, and I just wanted to share her with the world. So ladies and gentlemen, here's Jennifer wanker. Hello, hello. I love it. Super exciting. It's super excited. So like I said earlier, this is kind of a, this is your life. So, just so, you know, I mean, because the thing is, you know, we no life journey is linear, you know this. And so I just have to ask the question, what was your dream growing up as a child? Because you're now a curator, you're, you've been a curator, but, I mean, but what was your dream as a child? What led you? What was your original dream?

Jennifer Wenker  01:46

I kind of curious. Yeah, I I absolutely wanted to be an artist. That's definitely what I wanted to do. Ever since I can maybe, like, three, four years old. I just knew that that, I mean, okay, there was a slight foray during the convoy era that I wanted to be a long haul trucker.

Rodney Veal  02:02

Okay, what did you want it to be? A long would we why would you want to be? Just out of curiosity,

Jennifer Wenker  02:09

what rollers, convoy? Oh, okay,

Rodney Veal  02:19

no, this is but that's all thing. We all have that thing. I thought I was gonna be a zoologist, but it was like, clearly, I'm afraid of snakes. So that kind of killed the dream. I thought they were all be cute and attractive, like zebras. But no, yeah, reptiles, not my thing.

Jennifer Wenker  02:37

I do like snakes. Actually, there was a time. So when we were kids growing up, right there was, there was lots of really good PBS programs. And there was a program called, My God, I'm gonna forget it right now. It'll come back to me in just a moment. But you could write, they would, they would showcase a child from around the world and talk about their culture and what they ate, and oh, big blue marble. It was called Big Blue Marble. I absolutely loved that show. And I had three different pen pals when I was a kid, one from Greece, one from French Canada, and another from Japan and and then. And then, I was pretty sure I wanted to be a National Geographic photographer so I could just meet people everywhere. So I would say there's some side branches where you

Rodney Veal  03:29

just kind of kept going. But it was like, but that, but people in art. I mean, the thing is, I mean, you were just

Jennifer Wenker  03:35

written, open, open, open, open, open. Like ideas, ideas, right?

Rodney Veal  03:40

I love it. I love it. So did you do? How? How are your parents about this whole notion of you wanting to be an artist, the National Geographic photographer, then

Jennifer Wenker  03:51

this all in? Yeah, my mom was an elementary school teacher. She taught kindergarten, and my dad worked for the Air Force, as he was a mechanical engineer, worked on the planes up at Rickenbacker, so he traveled a lot. And then my stepdad was a World History and Government teacher. So we talked about, like, I don't know, we talked about travel and culture and people, and why people do what they do, and so I don't know, it's just always lively. And they were always, the three of them, just extremely supportive of, like, any any ideas, you know, they challenge you a little bit, but always really lively conversations and really supportive of like, do something original, do something interesting. You know,

Rodney Veal  04:44

that's so sweet, but that's like when I when I've talked to other people in the show, the common denominator is always this adult figure, usually it's a family member who just gets you. I mean, like no one gets you, like a parent gets you who. They really get you, you know, I'm saying like, in the sense of they, they're like, and you had three who just said, Hey, you're into this. Let's keep it going. So it's a really cool thing. I mean, that's a cool thing, and that's what, that's what I love about this podcast, is like, we kind of find out, like, Okay, I see, I see through lines. I get to see all the through lines to all these artists and these different genres. It's always someone who says, go for it. Like, okay, yeah, be open to ideas. And so, I mean, once you started to kind of, you know, obviously, you know, you have these ideas. You wanted to be a lot of things, a lot of things. But when it came pushing the shovel, it came down to deciding, you know, you get older, you know, your teenage years, you start to kind of formulate a vision and a plan. And was it just like, I'm going to be an artist. And so, no, no, still, I love it. No. So that was really cool, because, you know,

Jennifer Wenker  05:53

I would say, Okay, I had, we had an enrichment thing that started my seventh grade year, and you some of the kids were invited into the art classes, and so in seventh grade, I got to take the high school art classes, and then I got to take them in eighth grade as well, and then I took them all four years of high school. So I definitely love the arts. And my sister was in theater, and my mom made costumes. And, you know, we took dance lessons and piano and drawing. But at that time, I also thought Peace Corps, that's what I want to do. But then, like, how is Peace Corps going to do anything with me as an artist? So it's like, I feel like there was always this parallel, whether I recognized it or not. I mean, looking back, it's easier to see it, but there was always this, like, the third lines were like connection with other people cultures, like a general, not a general. Like an intense curiosity about people doing things differently than the way our family does things. And just like you know, just that I don't know, delight in finding out, like different cultures are just fascinating, and that can be like a culture, just like somebody else's family that's down the street is, you know, doing something different than the way we do things. And so it wasn't until, probably, I mean, we're skipping ahead a little bit, but it wasn't until, it wasn't until grad school, that I started thinking about curation really, really accidentally, I think in a really bad critique with a professor I didn't like, oh,

Rodney Veal  07:32

everything is because we all have that one professor. We've all had

Jennifer Wenker  07:35

that, yeah,

Rodney Veal  07:36

yeah. Mine was my drawing one professor, and I don't remember his name intentionally, just, oh, that critique was rough. I mean, it's like, you just go, Oh,

Jennifer Wenker  07:45

yeah. And so he was saying something to insult me. I'm sure he's like, Are you an artist, or are you a curator? And I was just like, Oh, I'm an artist. And then the more I'd kind of like, play with that idea, and like, oh, that's kind of interesting. I and it really put together some of the things that I that have always been part of my life. You know, the fascination with like other people, their stories, their way of seeing the world, and together with the esthetic sensibilities that I always felt like I could see patterns and connections. Where I thought everybody could see the world that way, and then, you know, you don't notice. You don't notice that you have something a little bit, I don't know if that's your thing, and I a little bit it's,

Rodney Veal  08:38

I mean, the fact is, like, Are you an artist or a curator? Wow, that was a slant. Was going, dude, like, why? Well, can't you be both? That's a good that was a good ask. I mean, I think, I think you can. I mean, personally I, you know, what do I, you know, my personal opinion is like, yeah, why would why were they? Why were people so dead set on people being in a lane, I know, especially in arts education, which makes no sense. But I think your your curiosity, combined with your esthetic awareness and your knowledge of art and art making, you know, saying, but that curious, it about the different cultures. Also, it was a curiosity about the why behind a piece of art, you know, like, What? What? What propelled them to go this direction? And, you know, you just kind of want to go down the rabbit hole and ask questions, why? Then show it. Hopefully people see what you see as the underlying question of the why,

Jennifer Wenker  09:34

right? Because it's always, I mean, obviously it's so much more than just the formalism you bring to the you bring to the studio every single experience that you've had in your in your life. And so even the most formalist piece has a story, and I want to know more about the person. And I appreciate the artwork Absolutely. I absolutely appreciate the artwork. You know, there's, there's so many layers to the why and like so. Of the shows that we have in the gallery right now are just fascinating because I came to the artist because of the formal properties, the esthetic properties, and like, just the fascination for how much work was put into the pieces. But then the story is like, Oh, next level. These are so fascinating. And then, yeah, it's so much less about what medium, although the medium can be really exciting too, but it

Rodney Veal  10:25

can be, but there's something else the extra, like you said, the story this, that to me, is like, I want to know why, what led you to this thing, you know, like, when I look at work and I that's got to be a fun place to be when you get to kind of play, not play, because, well, I guess this is kind of a little bit of play, a little bit of play. I know the world doesn't share this. You'll hear this part that we you know that we do enjoy what we're doing and looking at art. So the solution, like when that, when you got that challenge from the he or she, who shall not be named Professor, that cure, that curatorial, it kind of sparked an interest.

Jennifer Wenker  11:08

I kept making art. I kept making art, and most of the art was still about like, community engagement and conversation, like, that's the part that really excited me more than just, not just, I don't want to minimize anybody's way of making but for me, the part about making art is like sparking a conversation and getting it I really like intense dialog, you know, going deep with another person and feeling that connection. Like, Oh, I really like the ideas that you're toying around with and turning over in your mind, and the way you're parsing out, you know, these bits and fragments, and you know, because when you're making art, like there's a subconscious process happening and you have a there are not, usually, there are not words yet to describe the thing you're making, because you're on the cusp of the next thing, and it doesn't necessarily have words yet to describe it, or the why? You just know that you're pushing,

Rodney Veal  12:04

you're doing, and you're doing, you're acting, activating,

Jennifer Wenker  12:08

right? You're activating. And so the process is a really big part of it, but it's exciting to know that, like you're entering somebody's subconscious working space before they've attached words to it. It's all visual language. It's like metaphor and all that kind of part, which I find fascinating. I think a lot of introverts find that part fascinating.

Rodney Veal  12:34

Let's get into, I mean, you really do get into the psyche of an art an artist and art making, when you look at work, and I always, I always like, I always like to be, especially when it's looking hours I don't, don't do the drive by, don't glance and run. Sit with it. I really do like to sit with a piece of art, especially if it catches your eye. It catches something in you, and you go, I need to stay here for a bit. And whatever that bit may be, stay there long enough to ask that question, like, what? Like, what led you to these, these choices and these, oh, this seems tortured, or this seems so thick, or this, this is a lightness to it, almost like a relief. You know you're either you're you almost you use a lot more adjectives once you stay looking at a piece of art. That's right, yeah. And, I mean, because, because a lot of thought goes into, like, you know, as a curator, and I was kind of curious, I'm curious about, you know, you and I've worked together, so we'll get to that. I mean, and curating, which is fun, by the way, people, it's so much fun to curate, Jennifer, but there's, there's something about this thing, this thing that artists, that the audience may not understand or viewer, is that how much like placing? Because I always think about this, like how you place a work of art in a gallery setting, because usually next to another work, or how it's positioned in a visual field sense, can impact how you take in the story of what the artist is making. So when you're making those kind of decisions, what goes through your head when you're presented, especially there's two different ways, because usually it's usually it's one artist, like you have the Amina Robinson, and that's, that's the journey of her life. And I'm so glad we were able to tell that story on the show, on broadcast. That's a talk about a life lived in art making right decades, and it shows it's phenomenal. Oh, two, I truly think, yeah, genius. But then you also do things with, you know, you have multiple voices, where you have group showings within like different individuals. So how do you kind of, how do you decide where things go? I mean, from your perspective, in a space to match. Optimize what hopefully the audience will take, which is less than their drive, more than a drive by. I call them drive bys, and I see people in galleries like, man, you didn't, you didn't capture that in two seconds. Give me a break. Go back. Go back. You're missing some stuff.

Jennifer Wenker  15:18

Yeah. So I would say I probably do a couple of things. I like to, if I'm doing a solo exhibition, I'm I do read through the artist's biography. I read through their statement, and then I try to look at some of their past work too, because I'm looking for through lines. I'm looking to see, even though this body of work may be really different from the previous body of work. I'm going to find the through lines if I go back far enough. And so I know it's, it is a Chapter, you know, if we're going to use visual or, sorry, literary, you know, as a metaphor. So I am trying to figure out what they're saying, even if they don't have, even if I'm trying to figure out how to communicate the story outside of themselves, because they have their own story and all their history inside of themselves, but I want to know what what they've been saying throughout all the shows.

Rodney Veal  16:15

That's part of interesting. Yeah,

Jennifer Wenker  16:18

and then I carry that with me, and I kind of let it percolate a while. I don't do any writing. I don't start arranging the art yet. I'm just like carrying that around with me. So I might read that in the evening, and sort of move in the subconscious space too. I kind of like think of it as like a compost pile, like I want it to move through there a little bit. And then I do the same thing with the artwork. I want to look at the body of work that they've submitted or that we're definitely showing, and start looking for the patterns in the works they may have imagined it displayed a certain way. But I want to see based on what I've read, what my understanding is of what they're saying. I want to look for the visual language next. So I'm looking at some of the patterns, the colors, the mark making, composition, size. There's a lot of, you know, all the elements of art, plus there's more obvious than that, but kind of, again, it's that through line. And then I'm kind of looking at like, am I telling a story in a linear way based on what I've read about them and what I understand this show to be? Or am I, you know, dancing around a little bit so that you get a glimpse of like, this is an earlier work. This is a much later work, but when you put them together, you too can see that this mark made this piece, and you can see that in dialog, and that can be really interesting, which is one of the things I did with the Mina show. The beginning of the show and the end of the show. I have a work that she made when she was eight years old on one side of a doorway, and then one that she made at the end of her life on the other side of the doorway. And they're both with hands at the face, one as a young girl, and one is, you know, an older woman. And it's like, you can see, even though she worked with so many different materials and styles. And you can see, like, there's the neon works, there's, there's, they're all, they're everywhere. But you can see the through line. You

Rodney Veal  18:20

can see like, Oh, absolutely, I

Jennifer Wenker  18:22

totally. I don't want to tell people what to think, but I think if you can put a few things together in conversation, it's like a two word poem, right? You're looking at two pieces. Your Your eyes are going to find that without me telling you,

Rodney Veal  18:36

well, no, and that's another reason why I want people to slow down in an art museum and a gallery space. I didn't know what the rush is. Slow down, because you you can miss those connector through lines and there are, it is a dialog. And I mean, I think that's the reason why I wanted to talk to you, because I think a lot of people don't understand that curating is more than just hanging beautiful art. It has it's deeper than that, because you can it can challenge. And you know, art can challenge you can also inspire. You get it. Could also make you pause, consider some things in a different way, if you allow it. That's why I get so angry. I guess I'm letting it out people. I'm just letting people know, though I see people do drive bys in museums. I'm like, slow down. There's the curators did a lot of work here. I because, because I knew from the Amina Robinson that you spent a long time living in her world and her work to to, and this is the first stop on that exhibition tour. Do a lot of curators, and then you you you've encountered and worked with other characters, and you know, you're in the business. You're in this business. This is what you do. It seems to be that's another even, I've talked to gallery owners, they like to sit with the work. Before they ever, ever make that first move, is that, does that always scare? Does that scare you to make that first move, to hang that once you've thought it through that first work? No, seriously, I'm

Jennifer Wenker  20:15

curious. I know, and as long as I can see the work in the space, I have an understanding of the relationships between the two. With Amina is work, because we had almost 70 works, and some of them were, as you know, you know, 40 foot long or big work, yeah, trying to. And, you know, I work when I'm able to. I work in thumbnails first. But that's not always. I often have to make changes after I see the work in this space, because what I understand in a thumbnail it, you know, it flattens it out. I don't, I don't see the bead work in her case or, or in the case of like works in this show, I can't see the texture. I can't like some of the things I might have missed. Like these two work together better than I than I thought, or this, you know, this is the better conversation, or the more interesting dialog. But I think once I see the work in this space and I can start confirming in my mind that the relationship and the negative space and the pacing, the pacing is part of the journey around the gallery as well, that once we put up a work and start getting it, I actually feel more sure of myself because I'm like, Yeah, that's it. There are times when you get get part of a wall up that you were pretty sure about, or you'll second guess yourself and go, I think actually I wanted this, but I usually go back to the first the first one once, you know, again, once I've seen the work in this space. Because for me, it's like I'm coming at it as an artist, other other curators will be coming it, at it as an art historian. And so their process may be very different. I think that lens is different. So for me, when I look at the the walls of the gallery, you know that all six because we're considering the the floor and the ceiling as well. I'm thinking about it as the surface, right? That's the surface that I'm working on. And so I'm just another layer in, you know, making the presentation of the artist's work. So I'm really very conscious about the negative space and the pacing and the pattern and the repetition and where the colors are, because they don't want, I don't want, if they have brilliant color, I don't want to dilute the color, and if they have a lot of fine line work, I don't want to dilute the fine line work by, you know, having the color overshadow this really delicate work. So it's really important for me to think of the entire space as my canvas. So definitely, as an artist,

Rodney Veal  22:48

you really are frigid as an artist, so that'd be so that's so different. It would be differently different for an art historian. I mean, because which you know, gonna say something that's probably gonna offend those who are art historian curators. You could, you could have run the risk of making it too academic.

Jennifer Wenker  23:09

That could happen. I mean, I do know. I've met quite a few art historian curators that I that are contemporaries, that I really enjoy their work. We do approach it differently. But I think that's part of the conversation that's exciting too. But I'm excited to see artists being able to curate other artists work, because I think that conversation can be kind of next level. I mean, it's not different or worse. I think it's just if you're a visitor coming to see an exhibition, it is kind of another level of interesting to think about. I wonder who designed this, or what their sensibilities were, right? Like, if you're interested in that, I mean, you may not be people kinds of reasons, but,

Rodney Veal  23:58

yeah, but, but I think that that's something that, something that, like someone who a museum goers should start considering that it is a holistic thing. It's not just the artist. It's the curatorial vision. It's the I love how you describe the surfaces. Everything's a surface which is like, you know, it's like, it's like theater, it's like dance. It's like every surface ever the space is so much more than just me standing, you know, vertically. Yeah, it is horizontal across the floor. It's up against the corners of a space. And I just think about all those kind of I approach things differently in that way and but I want audiences to understand like that. There's a lot goes into it that what they see may have been months, years, even, yeah, I know because I because I don't, I mean, I'm I've learned that, you know, I've learned over the course of recently. The last, last 12 years of my own practice of making art that, oh, this is a urine this for the long haul. There's no, I mean, I'm like, oh, dear lord. I'm like, a year to sit with an to make an exhibit for sit with it for a year is vastly different than just one offs or something that you're giving as a part of a group showing it's it's your mindset. Everything is so radically different, and I never considered that as a part of the process of art making that I wonder, I'm kind of curious, because you're coming from an art background, and you and I, I come from an art background and a performance background, and then we work together at Antioch on an exhibition. Let's talk about that exhibition, because that was wild. That was, yeah,

Jennifer Wenker  25:49

so yeah, that was, that was one that came together. I think it was fomenting for a while, but the idea of it coming together, it came together really quickly, which I appreciated about being able to work with you. I'm glad you said yes when I reached out to you, but I was also it's like, okay, it's nice to be nimble sometimes, and sometimes in a museum, it can't be that nimble because you have to schedule so far ahead. But in an academic setting, we had some students are involved in faculty, you know, you've got your finger on the pulse, and having a very socially aware, politically active campus meant that we needed to respond to the moment. And it was, it was exciting to talk about things in real time, because,

Rodney Veal  26:39

right? Because, because we were, and this is How long, oh my God, how long ago was 2016 oh my gosh, yeah, oh my goodness, I was No,

Jennifer Wenker  26:49

no, November 2015 wasn't it? Is that right?

Rodney Veal  26:53

No, wait, I think, I think it's Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right. Oh my god, oh my gosh. But no, was it was in November. Was November 15, because we did, it was meme culture, as we were doing, because the whole it was interesting. It was like, what was the subject? What was what was that? The other thing we did? Oh, my God, see that's time, yeah,

Jennifer Wenker  27:20

living in divided states? Yes, deja vu.

Rodney Veal  27:30

We're back there again, divided states, yeah, divided states

Jennifer Wenker  27:34

discussing the phenomena of what was happening to our country and what was happening like we were talking about, you know, really rich artistic ideas around, like the rhizome, right? And like power structures being decentralized and information being decentralized, and that no one was receiving their information from the same source, and that it was driving, it was driving our country apart and

Rodney Veal  28:07

and fascinating. I remember because of, because it was a whole in a what was it? What was really great. It was the variety of voices I remember that was the interest. Like everybody had their take on it. But collectively, it led, I felt it led to this, this conversation that the audience could have the viewers that they were hungry for. And I think a lot of times, I think that there's this conversation that are because I've been thinking about our working together, because I did create something for another exhibition. That's what it was, yeah, because mine was about, mine was about Vogue magazine, which is, yeah, stuck in my forefront. I can't believe I'd gotten in to post like they were Vogue models. That was pretty funny. You got to see the work people. You got to understand where my crazy brain goes. But with this one, it was very interesting, because we had, we we had a performance art elements.

Jennifer Wenker  29:06

We had DC. DC was invited into the invited. They were phenomenal. Yeah, they were

Rodney Veal  29:12

absolutely phenomenal. And it was this, it was this notion that, because there's a tendency to believe that art can't have work in the political realm. I don't. I disagree. I would love to for people to come I think, I think everything we do is political. I You cannot divorce yourself from politics and the culture in which we live, in the society and the culture which you live is, it's all, it's, it's in, it's in the DNA and the structure and artists respond to that DNA, structure of a culture and society, and you want to see the work that they're making in a response. And everybody had these sort of responses. It was really interesting, because it was in 2015 and I remember well, and this is announced coming back to me, because we left the con, I left the country. In 2016 and it was, this is folks that got to say, I was like, Brexit was occurring, presidential election was occurring. It was a very strange time. And I went to London, and it was like, this whole notion of like, oh, the world sees this, but does America see that it's all in, built in the structures? And we did this work, and it worked out, it was, I thought it was a very thought provoking exhibit we had. I can't believe, like we were, like, whole

Jennifer Wenker  30:31

show, yeah, the conversations we were having, trying to figure out, like, why is this happening? How are we I mean, I think that was the first time that we were really recognizing that literally everyone in the country is getting a very customized news stream, and that we were no longer getting the same truth or the same Source to You know, parse out with our own experiences, we're just flat out getting completely different streams. And yeah, so we, we brought into the gallery a lot of a lot of different voices, primarily those that were not being included in the conversation, not being included, like their rights and voices were not being included. So, like we had, I know a Mexican American artist who was making work about police violence. We had quite a bit about, actually, police violence at the time. Yeah, I know we had a couple of dreamers that had made a short film. I met them in DC when I was at the creative time Summit, yeah, yeah. It

Rodney Veal  31:45

was, it was, it was such a but it was so but it was, I just remember, like thinking to myself, that's the the the diversity of voices, diversity of experiences, but to your point, there was this bifurcation of information. And that's what's exciting to me, is like when you can curate to the times you can curate to the art making process, and which is or the esthetics, there's so many different ways you could go. And that's what may I think that's what makes, to me, curity fascinating, because that's the first time I'd ever curated anything, by the way, I was, I was nervous. I was like,

Jennifer Wenker  32:32

because there were some obviously arts, you know, do brush up against boundaries, or flat out push them. And, you know, depending on what how you you know the passion behind what it is that you're trying to say. But I think another thing that arts and artists more often than not, are people who are open to ideas, open to trying things, right? I mean, that's part of the experimentation and open to mean we're all part of crit environments and seeing our colleagues do work. And so you're open to the idea that other people have completely different ways of doing something than yourself. And so naturally, because of that mindset, artists tend to be, and it's, again, not outright, artists tend to be a little more inclusive, or maybe a lot more inclusive. And so, you know, talking about art not being political, it it is because we all fall on a spectrum somewhere. Our experiences and our way of seeing the world fall on a spectrum, and whether that puts us a little more this way, or a little more this way, really, it's not really linear. And realize that the more you have a conversation with somebody, you're like, you feel like you know where they fall on the line, but you realize you've pigeon holed them, because something that you thought they would definitely be a no is a yes. You know, it's like, Absolutely

Rodney Veal  33:57

yeah, but that's it. But isn't that the cool part of what your job is? I mean, it's kind of the cool, like that makes it cool. I mean, I mean, hate to tell people, sorry, folks, we have the cool jobs. You should be in the arts. I'm just saying surely should be. And it's some

Jennifer Wenker  34:15

beautiful, yeah, really beautiful minds that I'm just excited to know, like, I'm excited to be in conversation with so many people that have walked a completely different life than me, and they're sharing something from the inside of themselves with me and with others. It's exciting.

Rodney Veal  34:32

I love it. So let me go straight because I'm really fascinated by like as a curator working with a living artist. What's that like? Because I noticed like to do a documentary or do us to work with a living person. It just, there's something about it does something for your soul. It just, what's that like to work when you work with an art like the art like I'm doing a you know, you're doing an exhibition with an artist who's walking. Breathing lives with us in our community, and you and you're you're inviting the world to see their work in the gallery space. What does that process like?

Jennifer Wenker  35:08

Yeah, I think it's about one of the things I really like to do is elevate and celebrate. You know, which I think is like when I was first thinking about going into, you know, taking this curation thing a little more seriously, and going, Okay, I think I could maybe do that, just trying to understand the origin of the word curate. I'm like, does curate mean, like, cut out things? No, not necessarily. It was actually came from the idea of, like priests and monks were responsible for the souls of others. That's what curation started out meaning. And then I, I sort of loved the idea of, like, being one that would lift up and celebrate somebody, rather than having this, I don't know, stoic, unapproachable affect to my approach like I wanted. I wanted to be somebody who would remain in conversation, remain like a regular person, and stay in conversation and make sure that I really understood their work showed it to the best of my ability, help them understand when I felt like a piece needed to be edited, not in a way to cut it out, but to like, save this piece for another show, another body of work, so that, so that there was enough negative space, or so that the thesis of their exhibition was fully realized, rather than having something that might Again take away from their softer work, or detract from, you know, the work that felt to me most museum ready for a show that I thought they'd be very proud of. And it's been a joy working with living artists, young artists, older artists, just like it's exciting to invite them into the space. Maybe it's their first museum show. Maybe they've had several, but it's always an honor to meet them and have lunch with them and hang their work and talk with them and kind of figure out what are their favorite pieces, and then, you know, have them write back and go, I really love what you did with the show. And, oh, it's so cool. Kind of like a mutual it's a friendship that I think, you know, it does grow through time. You know, I'm excited to see what happens after they leave here, and what other shows they're in. Wow, when

Rodney Veal  37:33

you said that, I never really thought about

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Rodney Veal  38:26

I mean, I've really honestly thought about like, okay, so what happens like, oh, that you've built these relationships with these artists and their art is this kind of fun to kind of go back. Has there ever been a show that you've done where you know the distance of time, and you've thought to yourself, I would love to bring that person back to see what what the work looks like in relationship to what they did X number of years ago.

Jennifer Wenker  38:56

I haven't been at it too long yet. I think I would consider the first time I started curating was, and I would a loose version of the word would be maybe a little bit at the end of grad school, so not terribly long, because I taught students and we curated. Actually, the first show I curated with students was called exquisite provocations. Oh, making. They were kind of looking at activist art, and art that was in conversation with political events, and they were excited, but yeah, some of the works, some of the artists that we had at the Herndon gallery, were just really terrific artists too. Like there's a Palestinian American artist, Michael hambous, in New York City, and he was an alum of Antioch college, and he was such a pleasure to work with. And I would I especially in these times where Palestine and Palestinians are being so cruelly treated, I would really like to invite him back and and think about like, you know, now that they're i. His reality is affected even more intensely. Like, what would he be showing because he had really had a really colorful, I mean, really accessible works, not, you know, not even obliquely political. But I'd be curious to see what his mistake on the world was and what he was making. I probably, I think I will look him up afterwards and talk,

Rodney Veal  40:22

but that's, but he does, but that's the fun part of kind of, yeah, of working with you. Jennifer was like, we, we generated, I more ideas on top of the ideas that we were trying to manifest. Which is, which is, I think, a part of the artistic process. I think that sometimes to non artists, they don't understand. Artists geek out when we all get together, do we ever? I mean, I mean, you know, you know I feel about big Davis, so, I mean, you know that is justifiable, people. Is justifiable. It's just that there's something about it. It's just something like you said, it's like, it's not about the I think, I think when people think it's about politics, the art that's really talking about community or global events, they think it's one sided. And most of the art is usually, the art isn't the art is usually allowing for dialog, and a conversation to occur as as a tool for that, versus, I want people to take advantage of seeing challenging art, because I really do believe in challenging art. I like to be there's some moments where I've gone, wow, you challenged me, you know, wow. I mean, I may not have agreed with your challenge, but I at least acknowledge your like that you pushed a button. You pushed me to kind of consider it. I mean, what would you say to folks who may see things that maybe are outside their comfort zone, especially visual art? Because visual art makes people a little skittish and nervous. I found that nudity scares people. I don't know why, but, okay, I don't know the thing, but I

Jennifer Wenker  42:07

think certain nudity scares people. I think male nudity scares people more than female nudity.

Rodney Veal  42:14

Yes, I found that out. Yes,

Jennifer Wenker  42:15

yeah, yeah. So,

Rodney Veal  42:19

so, I mean, so do you do? What do you what do you say to them? What do you say to the the what? What happens when? And I'm sure you've dealt with this as a curator, where people have did people come up to you and said, I didn't like that. I didn't appreciate this, doing this. Oh, how do you handle when it's such a viscerally not positive response. How do you, how do you handle that? You

Jennifer Wenker  42:46

know, it's interesting, like, I haven't had that happen a lot, except maybe in social media, you know, I don't think people the way social media is now. I think that happens. You know, behind you. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen behind your back, scrolling back, it'll happen as third party, rather than, you know, directly. And a conversation obviously makes it a lot easier, because if you can be in conversation, you can like, I can listen to what your concern is. You can listen to where I was coming from, and we can either make a change or we can let that percolate a little while. Maybe both of us will grow a little bit. But if it happens as trolling is neither of us really get anything out of it.

Rodney Veal  43:33

Yeah, so, yeah, the trolling doesn't work, folks, doesn't work. Doesn't work. It just makes you just kind of go, Oh, come on, I'm open. And that's, that's what I loved about working with you, that you were open. And when you said, because you meant you said the word nimble. I think our the nimbleness was the openness to let it kind of manifest itself, the way it needed to be manifested, versus the rigidity. I think people think of curators as being gatekeepers in a in a very strict sense. And I just don't believe, I don't, I'm not buying that you cannot be rigid as a curator. You can't be rigid as an art maker. You can't, you can't be, you can't be rigid in the arts at all. I mean, yeah. I mean,

Jennifer Wenker  44:19

yeah, yeah. I think there's, I don't, I certainly don't EVER aim to be rigid. I think something that can be confused with rigidity is just finally having to make a you know, sometimes you just have to make a decision. And once, once you're at a certain point, that decision has to fairly well stand, because that show is up right now you can, you can make adjustments at some point if they if it seems like it's in the best interest of the show or the person, or, you know, they're, you know, I don't know. I'm just Yeah, it's I Yeah. Try not to make it about rigidity. I try to stay as open minded as possible. To really think about, think about and listen. Without trying to come back with a response quickly. I am definitely a percolator, like, at all times. If you can give me a heads up and let me have your idea in my mind for a few days, I will come back with a much more thoughtful reply, yeah,

Rodney Veal  45:17

I'm too much of a Yeah, I'm too much of a hothead. Don't ask me, like, right away, because I just like, oh, we'll both regret it, and it'll just not be cool. But I think I, but I understand the measured and nuanced response, and I think that people need to understand that it's like, you know, that's hence the drive by. That's why I'm opposed to drive by an art gallery. So I'm I really have, I really have a this is my soapbox stance against people. Take your time in an art gallery space. Take your time to look at the art under and then not just the art, but then to add this other element. Step back and look how the art was being presented to you. Take in both, and you will even have a richer experience in an art gallery space. So I'm curious about a show that you didn't curate that made you just that just stopped you in your tracks. You thought this was amazing. Everybody has a show that they just loved. I mean, is there a show that you I mean, there's, oh, there's a show that, Oh, my God, I

Jennifer Wenker  46:24

might have to come back to that. I might have to come back to it. Let me think about it. But

Rodney Veal  46:30

is that wild? I mean, you know, I try to think what mine was, the one that kind of stopped me in my tracks. It's recent. David Hockney, because it was unexpected. What

Jennifer Wenker  46:41

was your response? I mean, what did you What did you go in thinking about David Hockney, and then what did you come

Rodney Veal  46:48

out? Right? So with, so with David Hockney. It was, we're in Palm Springs, turned 60, and it was like, I wanted to go think, and I wanted to see it. You know, I just went. I was like, well, for here and it's there. I need to see this artwork. And I seen David Hockney's work in books and monograms and not really, necessarily in person. And then I walked in, and it was like this mini retrospective of his work. But it was so grand. He had a grand he has a grand visual palette that was so like what it must have felt like to have seen these large scale landscapes, his landscapes, I did not realize how huge they Were, large in scale, size, huge horizontal pieces that were like murals, basically, and they were in these and they were just so rich and stunning. And I just stopped, and I just went, oh, oh, it's, I don't ever want to leave the spot. And it just, it, just it brought a little tear to my eye. I said he captured but he captured but he captured it in a way that wasn't like he wasn't trying to recreate perfectly nature. He gave us, he gave me vibrations of nature through color, his color choices. And I just went, Oh, do you know? Like I do, yeah, that's the thing. So that's, that's when I, when I talk about an art, like, an exhibition that we should kind

Jennifer Wenker  48:22

of go. Oh, lucky, yeah. Okay, I can think of a couple as you were talking. So when I was in undergrad, I got to go to I saved up all what would have been my car money so that I could go to Europe, because the art department, the French department, were combining, and they were headed to Paris, so we got to live in Paris for a little bit, and we went to see I'm going to forget the name of the museum, but it was all of August Rodin's work. And I don't think I'd ever really understood, like, what sculpture could be, but his work was so passionate, like his figures, like, just the gestures, like there was a gesture of, like a man and a woman embrace, and the way she's touching her toe, like, oh my god, capture that in like bronze, and I had, like, that whole gesture, just being so aware of like that, that little touch, it was just breathtaking. Yeah, others in marble, just, I was spellbound, like, again, just like, and then, of course, going through it, you know, any of the marbles in like Italy, when you look at like the musculature, and I don't know, just the the tension in a in a body, it's like

Rodney Veal  49:50

and you felt like there's something about that, that sense of because I was, I was, I respond this. Especially sculptures from that, that time frame, especially in marble, that way, it's the the lightness and the heaviness of the human form, because there is a lightness and a heaviness, and it comes through in the tension and how the skin, when there's a difference between your hand like this and a hand like that, yes, you can even see it just like, like, that space, right? Yeah,

Jennifer Wenker  50:23

that tension,

Rodney Veal  50:24

like, yeah, like, turning your fingers and become different if it's flat, versus this, yes,

Jennifer Wenker  50:34

there's the technical, there's the energy, but also, like, I was, I was just absolutely struck by that level of observation, like I could imagine, like you have to really be paying attention to how the body conveys emotion and energy to be so aware to get that gesture exactly right, Where I feel something hundreds of years later, you know, it's, it's amazing. And then similarly, but in a completely different vein, I would say, in Cincinnati, when they held their first blink festival. Oh, my God. Oh, I love it. The Absolute, like childlike delight, I felt like my mouth never, like, closed again after it opened with like, joy and wonder like, I can't believe how exciting it that new media is to think about, like, you know, animation and projection, moving light and the scale of it and the unexpectedness of it, and It's free, and it's out in public, and it's projected on, like, alleys and windows, and it was magical. And like, I'm all for it. I think it's the best thing that's happened in a while. Like, it's amazing.

Rodney Veal  51:53

I will

Jennifer Wenker  51:55

be happy to be there commercial.

Rodney Veal  51:59

Way to go blank. I know we've covered we've covered them on the art there

Jennifer Wenker  52:03

was one as part of the blink Festival of the art academy of Cincinnati, their particular exhibit in that first one was phenomenal. That like full installations of television monitors together with hip hop and like animations jumping from screen to screen. It was just incredible, so immersive. And it's just so nice to be able to, like, feel so fully alive and excited and like, it's, it's going to be a better word for just, just joy, like I was just so happy. I just wish I had gone alone, which is crazy. I wish there was a whole bunch of people I knew, because I just wanted to just wanted to say, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.

Rodney Veal  52:45

Okay, okay. I hold you to that next Blink. Blink is coming. Hello, Jennifer, you and I let's get a car. We're just blink. We're going to

Jennifer Wenker  52:56

blink snacks. Let's drink drinks and go to blink and

Rodney Veal  52:59

just talk about this art, and that's but that's a fun part of what we get to do is, like I said, the dialog is just as exciting as hanging the art, making the art. It's it's everything, it's all it's all of it, it's all of it. And so I'm kind of curious as we, as we're coming to the end of our hour. See, it doesn't take much See, I told juicy, yeah, yeah, you're

Jennifer Wenker  53:24

good. You're good at this. So my question,

Rodney Veal  53:27

I have a quote. You I have a question because I just feel like, what do you say? Because you know you had to someone who may not think that they want to be an artist, but they may not necessarily be at that place to be said artist that curating is not a bad thing. What would you tell them? What would you what advice would you give to someone who may be curious about the curating process?

Jennifer Wenker  54:02

Okay, yeah, sure, yeah. I would say, you know, put some shows together. Get together with people that you that whose work you enjoy. I mean, even if you don't enjoy their work, I bet you can figure out how to be in conversation with their work. But definitely, if you've got classmates, colleagues, if you're have some art heroes, reach out, you know, and see if there's a way to, like, put some shows together. I would, I would say, if you're still making art, start with your own shows, but maybe invite a person or two to be in a show with you. You can do house shows. You can rent spaces. And, like, we didn't even talk about that. But before I was at the Herndon gallery in between, like, I got my MFA late in life, I started at 40, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that either. I mean, you do your path, your way, and it doesn't have to be in a line for heaven sakes. It's like, just have fun with it. There's no rule. Schools. But, you know, one of the things I did right after graduate school is just, I was I didn't get a job that I thought I was definitely going to get as a faculty member. So I just started thinking about, Okay, what else can I do? And I was really excited about, like, art residencies, or like, activating empty spaces in our community. And so I reached out to, like, store owners and people that had empty buildings that were trying to sell them. I'm like, do you care if, like, we talk about, like, putting up an art show or having a class here, you know, for just, you know, just the weekend, and I'll hype it up, and you you know, people can see your space. And that ended up turning out to be like five exciting years of my life where I was kind of curating it, curating kind of a loose Arts Collective, which was just creative people in my town from every walk of life who just, you know, had ideas zinging around their brain, and we just tried to figure out as a collective how we could say yes to as many of them as we could and bring them to fruition. And I think that was the we didn't make any money, but we sure built, we sure built up our community in in fantastic ways. We hyped that community, and a community loved us back and like it revitalized the community. So I think that's a really low risk way of trying things out. And just realize you can hang art in a laundromat, you can hang art in a cafe or a restaurant. You can there's all kinds of places that would be happy to see artwork up and and I think the public is generally pretty appreciative of of collaborative projects when it's the you know, the stakes aren't too high, you know, and your enthusiasm can be pretty infectious. So give it a shot, like if you hear a few nos, they're not going to all be nose somebody's going to think that's a great idea,

Rodney Veal  56:58

right? So true. Well, that I didn't say no when you asked me to curate.

Jennifer Wenker  57:03

I sure didn't. I was shocked.

Rodney Veal  57:06

Well, because I was like, well, that's the thing. It's like, well, you've never had this experience before. Well, why not? Yeah, you never ended well, look, look what it led to, being

Jennifer Wenker  57:17

friendship and every now and cross in this really cool way. And we're like, I forgot how awesome you were.

Rodney Veal  57:24

Yes, I was like, it was so excellent. Oh my god. And you know, it's a I have to be full, full caveat. I am serving as an adjudicator for the members show for the Springfield Art Museum. We're so happy to have you. I'm very excited. And, you know, I loved, I loved, I really, genuinely loved that process, because it was, it was really, because it's like, I tell people I cannot wait for people to come see the show, and I strongly suggest anytime there's a member show to any arts organization, whether it be the Springfield Museum, Dane Art Institute, the contemporary Dane Society of artists. It doesn't matter go see those kind of shows, because you get to see that there is such a variety of thoughts and ideas manifested creatively. This is you. I mean. Talk about not wanting to do a drive by. I just can't wait to everything's hung and I can just sit in the gallery and just stare at it all, yeah, take it all in.

Jennifer Wenker  58:25

You come in there, and it's like, that is your community. Like, look at, you know, spend some time getting to know your community. Like, these are, these are all visual conversations. Often, we, you know, pass people by and have very fleeting conversations. But somebody's, somebody's also taking a risk. A lot of these people are that are showing our first time that they've ever submitted something that's going to be viewed publicly. And other people have been doing this for absolutely decades, and they're professionals, but this is our community, and this is the spectrum of folks that are all participating in, like, a really lovely dialog visually, like, this is what's going on in my life. This is what I'm making. This is what my process is. This is what excites me right now, right? That's

Rodney Veal  59:13

fun, right? It is fun. And that's why, that's why, that's why I enjoyed doing the process. I was so honored that you asked me to do it. And I was like, because then I that, and I, you know, I was always doing this because I, because we, you know, we talked about it on last week about where I where I stood with the artwork, and where I thought of and I really thought, you know, some really beautiful work and, and there's some really thought provoking and engaging work and fun and beautiful. It was just, I kept thinking, Oh, my God, I can't wait to see the next member show with a different curator, an adjudicator, just to see I'm kind of curious about that, like, what would they see differently than I see? That's the fascinating part about it. That's why, that's why I posed that question to you, because I think people need to do that so they can. Understand it, gain a little bit more knowledge. Yeah, so because it will, it will, it will infuse your art making. It'll give you the courage, I'm going to call it the artistic courage, to take a risk, to show your work. Because there are a lot of people out there who said, Oh, I'm How do I start? How do I begin? I said, you just kind of do it. Try it. There's no There's you're not going to fail. There are so few. You only fail in an attempt. If you don't attempt, there's no you. There's no attempt. There's no failure. There's nothing, zero. If you do nothing, you got to try it, even if you fall on your face.

Jennifer Wenker  1:00:38

Everybody, everybody has a starting point. Everybody Exactly. If you don't start, you don't move forward at all. Start. Be brave. Put a mark on the page. Yeah, put another mark on the page if you don't like it, and

Rodney Veal  1:00:53

then if you don't like that one, pull out another page and start all over. I mean, it's okay, and it's like, you will start to then, you know, develop that sort of that goes back to that child, like wonder and joy that you talk about with Blink. I find joy in making it's so much fun. It's so like, it just lightens me up and so but you know, you you get to get the joy of wanting to to make the process inclusive and open and and supportive and empathetic and all those things and thought provoking, which is what you are as a human being, And it's such a joy to be your friend.