Kathy and Rico Bruce Wade

On the Season 4 premiere of Rodney Veal's Inspired By Podcast, Rodney welcomes Bruce and Kathy Wade, who discuss their creative upbringing and the importance of storytelling. Bruce and Kathy, both accomplished in the arts, emphasize the value of storytelling in enriching society and share their experiences of being raised in a supportive, creative family.

Follow Rico on social media: @ricobrucewade

Learn more about Learning Through Art: https://www.learningthroughart.com/

Transcript

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SPEAKERS

Kathy Wade, Bruce Wade, Rodney Veal, Ad

Bruce Wade  00:00

There's value in storytelling. It enriches your soul. It makes for a fuller and richer society. This is vital. It is vital to the health of our society, be a part of be a part of this. 

Rodney Veal  00:19

Oh... well, hello everyone. My name is Rodney Veal, and welcome to Rodney Veal's Inspired By podcast. I have had so much fun before actually saying this intro with two people who I can't wait for you to get to know, because they are full of life and talent and harmony and the music of living and creativity, and they just embody it, and they're just super cool. A lot of people in Cincinnati know Kathy Kathy Wade, but I am introducing people to Rico Wade as well. This is the first time we have had two guests on a podcast at the same time. So it's like a, it's like a it's a first time event. I can't wait for you folks to sit back and enjoy this journey that we're going to go with these two fabulous, incredibly talented people so Rico and Kathy. Welcome to inspired by, thank you. 

Bruce Wade  01:27

Thank you. Thank you very much. 

Rodney Veal  01:30

I love it. I love it. So okay, I got to get in, okay, all right, got to get in the hot tub, Time Machine. We got to go back. I am always amazed by because, you know, I when families produce people who are all into creativity and music and acting and putting stuff on the stage and doing every I mean, you expect lightning to strike once, but to strike twice. Let's talk about this childhood that produced these two really talented people. I kind of curious, what was your childhood like?

Kathy Wade  02:07

Well, you want to go first. 

Bruce Wade  02:09

It was fun. It was great. It was great. There were six of us. Yes, it was as the years go on, I appreciate it more. It was not thank you for the introduction. At the time, it seemed like this is just the way things are. This is, this is how it's going to be, and it it is in only years, as years gone, that I realized that it was extremely extraordinary. I always had, always had an ensemble. I had five peers at all times, five supporters. But my parents, our parents were, I don't know. I was just telling someone earlier today, probably gave them a run for their money. But

Rodney Veal  03:05

you add in this creativity thing that's a whole

Bruce Wade  03:11

it had to, I could just, I could hear my, you know, like in my head now, I can just imagine my dad's friend saying, Wait, there's something wrong with your boy. It was care, it was creativity, but it was, it was relentless and without bounds and without judgment. I think that's, that's the thing. I agree. Yeah, looking back, why did y'all let me do that? Thank you. But wow.

Kathy Wade  03:43

Well, why and then why not? Yes, yes. I mean, good, always. Well, why not? You can do that, you know. And then you add. So my mother was always about the exposure. We all had to be exposed to something artistic, something in terms of just literacy, you were always exposed. And with six, we had lots of my mother and father, both were only children, so I had all of these great aunts and uncles, my grandmother, I even knew my great grandmother. And you had, you had all these people who were interested, invested in what you were doing. But my our parents really made sure about that. So my mother was very much in tune to making sure we had the exposure. My grandmother took me to the opera when it was still at the zoo. Yes, at the zoo

Rodney Veal  04:43

Cincinnati, I'm telling you,

Kathy Wade  04:46

and I heard a black opera singer, and I thought, well, I can do that with my voice. Well, why not? You know. So that led me to some other things. And then my father. Her was really both my parents were really, our parents were really into jazz. So I always remember nothing but jazz being played, and all I did was sit around and try to mimic it was vocalist, primarily female vocalist on my mother's days off and instrumentalist on my father's days off. Wow. So you know. And we all had to learn the clap song by Brubeck. It was required learning

Rodney Veal  05:28

for the whole

Kathy Wade  05:29

for all the kids, all six of them, whether you wanted, and it didn't mean you had to hang with it, but you had to learn how

Rodney Veal  05:38

to do it. It's very cool. Yeah, so there's obviously your parents had an intention. They had a they had a master plan. Did they share with you the master plan after the master plan got started? Like, sometimes parents do tell you, like, this is the reason why we did what we did. I'm like, yeah, oh, I didn't know.

Kathy Wade  05:59

Okay, I don't know that they ever shared that. I think it was just implied. For me, I'm number three. So I learned what not to do from one and two, because I never liked getting a spanking. I was not about I was not about going to get the Twitch when told to do that, right? So yeah, because that was going to be painful. And if I'm going to have a high register, let me use it for a good cause, like singing and not crying. I just dreaded it. I didn't do that.

Rodney Veal  06:36

That is awesome. Just saying, well, they just, you know, back in the day, you know, you know, we were so that, yeah, you did, yeah. I learned from my brother, you know, exactly he was five years older. I said, Oh, what not to do? What? How not to tick these people off, right?

Kathy Wade  06:56

Especially, I was always fascinated that my mother could find all kinds of things for us to get involved in. Every summer. I did a summer enrichment program of some sort at some school. I did at soy junior high school where I went to junior high. I mean, always involved in something,

Rodney Veal  07:14

always and just she, just because she never stopped. It was like everybody, everybody, everyone else. So are you two? The only two that kind of stayed in the creative like zone, so to speak.

Bruce Wade  07:30

Of it is we are each creative in our own way, just that a dog make an entrance. I'm sorry.

Rodney Veal  07:39

Oh, it's all right. Oh, it's our fur babies we got. If I ride home, you see a cat crawling all over me.

Bruce Wade  07:52

You know, doing that we are, we are all creative in our own way. The one of the things that Kathy mentioned, the the plethora of relatives, one of the things that we were given access to was storytelling. Yeah? And I think we all are great storytellers in our own way. Kathy and I happen to apply it to the the area of the arts. But yeah, you sit down with our siblings, you don't get a story. Yeah?

Kathy Wade  08:20

Some version, 

Bruce Wade  08:21

yes, and stories are so important. There's so vital to sharing the human experience, sharing how life is, how to move through life, and what it is that you have have experienced, and how how to communicate that to other people.

Kathy Wade  08:49

It serves as an anchor, yes, you know. And then you get to build on start. I can remember my first my very first attorney, Ron Porter, used to run the arts consortium dancer on Broadway the whole nine yards, and I can remember him saying to me, you want to always learn how to tell your story, but don't tell it all at the same time. Every time you tell your story, you need to add something new, not that you have to make it up, but you don't need to deliver all of it at the same time, which I thought was always great advice. So I try to add a spin on talking to people on something that maybe haven't told before, and if I've shared it once before, then you know, how do you deliver that? That that story again? But yeah, you was great advice that. And then the other really good piece of advice from Harriet page, she said to me, after I got my early my first really significant review, always remain a mystery. People will not be interested if they know everything about you. So you want to remain a mystery, you don't have to deliver Oh, and then those two pieces of advice worked hand in hand for me, always tell something different to this. Story and always remain a mystery. So I can add something, you don't get the whole package. You don't get the whole reveal, just enough to wet your whistle.

Rodney Veal  10:09

I love that philosophy. That is really cool, I mean, but do they get you? Got to be open to those philosophies. Do you know I'm saying like, in the sense of, I feel like you're for both of you that just this environment, this family life, and environment, kind of, like I said, I call it the master plan. I think parents, you know, do things for a reason. Is it because you talked about Enrique, you talked about storytelling so that, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you said, like, like you're at a place, like you can look back and go, Oh, well, that all makes sense. Then everybody's, I love how you said, Everybody's a storyteller, right? But because you Well, first of all, there's six of you in a house, I You gotta, you gotta fight for the get the word out. I think those are those of us who are surrounded by lots of family members, you got to work at getting get your word in.

Bruce Wade  11:06

Because, I must say, I didn't think that's where you were going, because I was thinking of storytelling from our perspective in this moment, one of the things about being, being one of six is and and having shared experience, there are moments when we can say one thing, and everybody knows the whole story and will for I if I were to say to my sister, and then Miriam stood up, see, Yes,

Rodney Veal  11:40

I love it because that's because it's the only that's a bond that only, only siblings can have. Use it like you just cannot. I mean, absolutely, you can have a great relationships with people outside of family bonds. But there's nothing like a family bond where everybody goes. Remember that time? Remember what you did? Oh, yeah, because that's what we do. And so it just feels like that. I mean, to me, like one of the things that was was inspiring about meeting both of you, it's very clear to me, there was this joyous upbringing, there was joy. There was a lot of, like, good times, and I mean nothing. We don't minimize the challenges. I mean, I can't imagine, you know, six, six children in a house trying to go forward and keep everybody from inside the bus and no parts dangling. I'm giving, I'm giving props to your parents. I mean what I mean, because I'm because this is the whole thing we when we talk to people about these being in these careers that are arts related and creative, did when you made the decision both of you to do the thing that you are doing, like where you're at now, but looking back and saying it to your parents, were they did they try to dissuade it or, or were they all in? Do you know, saying like in this?

Kathy Wade  13:11

Yeah, no, not at all. My parents would host parties at our house for some reason, yes. And I would sing it, though. I would sing, and then I would always do the Jitterbug with my father. He was throwing me through the air. And, I mean, it was, I just thought that's what everybody did.

Rodney Veal  13:32

I've here before you, Cathy with

Kathy Wade  13:37

my mother, having a friend of one of the original members of a comedian comic truth that Bruce was that Rico was involved in. See, this is for you, family and everybody else. I call him Bruce. You all call him Rico. Anyway,

Bruce Wade  13:52

it's fine, please. He

Kathy Wade  13:54

was involved in. She was married to a gentleman who produced music, and he had all this fresh new music, and there was a party at our house when we still lived in eastwater hills, and he brought the band, and my mother, when he was done, made a beeline for him and said, You need to work with her. I'm like,

Rodney Veal  14:15

she was your first agent. I'm sorry. Oh, yes,

Kathy Wade  14:19

she was, by all means. And ultimately it became my, the music that he wrote became my very first CD. Really, yes, wow, produced by Grammy winning producer Bill Cunliffe,

Rodney Veal  14:35

and you just on your way. I mean, well, you don't, that's, that's, that's why I asked, because, you know, we don't know. I mean, I didn't see any of this, right at all, right? Parents, no idea, no right? Because that, you know, they were, they still are amazing. Is an astounding you get paid to talk to people. I'm like, Yeah, you do, yeah, you can have conversations. It's a good thing. So Rico, you have a music background, but you've got the theater background and acting background. I mean, come on, it's pretty amazing. It was pretty amazing.

Kathy Wade  15:24

I don't do anything without him. I realized that I've done while building out performing arts, educational programming, I always call and say, Okay, I'm doing another show. Can you write me? Can you write me? It's usually a rap song, right? Great lyrics. I've got two rap tunes. When we actually recorded the hood is bigger than you think that's a whole tour, okay, that we turned into a song that's part of the about respect. But at any rate, yeah, just, I just don't. So when the opportunity came to do create the educational program for America's river roots. My first call is to him. I said, Hey, I got this opportunity, and we're going to need a script. And he writes the scripts for our books, alive for kids, streaming episodes. So really, okay, so you writes all of those. And then He's our mascot, Paige Turner, the purple owl. He is her best friend, and and not even just a best friend, but the person that guides her as she traverses the world through the eyes of a child, right? So he reads the stories to her, and then they have an adventure, and we take her somewhere, and we comes along and answers any questions necessary.

Rodney Veal  16:43

It's pretty cool. It is pretty cool. So, like, like, obviously, you know, like, you know, the early it's that's why I'm so intrigued by two siblings who are in these parallel tracks of creative careers that intersect. But was the intersections or the intersections immediate? Like, do you know, saying, like, in a sense of, did you go off and do your own things, you know? Did you know we have to do our thing, but then we come back? And so I'm kind of curious. It was it always like, from the day one, like, we go collaborate?

Kathy Wade  17:14

Well, that's interesting. I think when opportunities present themselves, that's when the merging began, when I started this down this road of, well, first of all, just doing the educational programs and building a new one out, you know, first call to him, but then when it be when covid came, and we couldn't take books of life for kids into the classroom anymore, and we had to figure out what's the performative piece going to look like and we had done some specials about 15 years earlier around the performances of books of life for kids, and he was involved in that. He was an actor and writer for that Princess hot shot and the middle of bloom. Who could ever write anything except, I mean, in the story, blind was fabulous. Don't know why we didn't win the Emmy then, but it was fabulous,

Rodney Veal  18:06

right? Yeah, we don't, yeah,

Kathy Wade  18:10

just, you know, you just keep it moving. But from for me, it is, it's, it's like anything that I find myself doing, I look out on the landscape and figure out who are my collaborators on this. So my first call is always, Hey, girls, what you doing? Got a shot for you. Okay, so, I mean, you know,

Rodney Veal  18:35

I love that. It'll be really pretty cool that, like, you know, it's in house, so to speak, and in house collaboration and so, you know, so, like I said, in the parallel tracks, we go like you're starting films, you're teaching that, you know, you're you're in your element, in your zone. It's like it, but you're kind of, but you're because you're family, but you're also talented family. You keep coming back to this kind of connective threads, like getting each other, which is interesting about the storytelling that which I mean, I mean, not to analyze, once was someone else's family. But man, your parents set y'all up. They set you up in a way, to be this. Because not like me. Be very clear, not everybody's siblings get along. I mean, I'm I was obviously, yeah, I do the same thing. Where I go, doesn't everybody's family get along? Doesn't everybody's family connect and engage and have a good time? Oh, they don't. Okay, I do a lot of that, but, but I just feel like in the creatives, there seems to creativity seems to foster a better sort of connective threads. Do you find that just being in what you do in the theater arts and music fosters better connective threads?

Bruce Wade  19:55

I think that I was very lucky in that. I started down this path in Cincinnati with a group of improvisers the Fairview impromptu band. What I learned in years, in the years that followed, was just how special they were, just how generous they were. That's very important in collaborative situation. They also, they were also very talented, and they helped me understand what I didn't know, and set me on the on the path of acquiring skills, acquiring a skill set it is I understand I've been on. I understand how it works best, and what environment, especially, what environment I need to flourish. Not always there. It's been a blessing when I've had the opportunity to work with Kathy, because I don't think during the whole process, I don't think I don't think, I don't think I snapped or anything did I

Kathy Wade  21:04

can think I yelled or anything. No, I was impressed with is that we had quick story sidebar. We had this last shoot. We had someone who wasn't moving as quickly as they needed to to make sure the program was going to run on time. Because I was in, we're in a union house. And you know what union houses are like. Love the Union but you must always be conscious of time, and just to watch him go from to you will do this now. And the now is not even that loud. And those were not necessarily the words used, nothing harsh, but just There you go. That's the director. You better move. I can only stand up and say, time is money.

Rodney Veal  22:00

I'm gonna have to turn around.

Kathy Wade  22:03

And back him up. So why don't you just go ahead and move he was kind okay. It was just great watching it happen and the person got the message. One

Bruce Wade  22:13

of the things that I learned is that that I not everyone. I know, I know, I know what it bring, what what I hope people bring to the table. And part of the process of at least when I direct, is being bitterly disappointed that people don't bring

Rodney Veal  22:38

what I thought they bring. Oh, truth of podcast so you know, if you

Bruce Wade  22:41

but here's that is a true thing. Working with with Cathy, it's just such a place. Just walk into places like this is going to work. This is a professional who knows what the hell she's doing good. I don't gotta worry. Let's move forward. I am as a director, patient and allow grace, but there's professional accountability that I appreciate with and I don't think I've said this to you, Kathy, that's that's one of the things I appreciate when I'm working with you. It will. I kind of have a sense how, how things are supposed to happen. And it's always good when I'm surrounded with people who are capable of doing what, what I expect, what, what should be, what, yeah, what should

Rodney Veal  23:38

happen. But I think also too, you know, it's like longevity forces you to kind of cut away the unnecessary, yeah, to get to get straight to it. I mean, and I think that something that, as performers at the level that the two of you are at, and creators at the level you're at is that, over the time, just my observation, and this is, I mean, you're talking about, that's the first time I saw a show, and I'm still talking about the show that I saw last week. Mind you, two people like, as in, y'all don't understand. You do not understand this is what it's supposed to be like. This is what I should never walk into a show of feel like it was, it wasn't predictable. And this is not just because I'm an honest person. I you know, I just tell like it is, you know, you as a former educator, you got to tell these kids the truth. Otherwise they will, they will chew you up like the shark from Jaws. They like, I said, she lying. Let me take you out. You have to, you know it. I know what it takes to get to motivate a group of people to create something that engaged an audience so well. That people would not allow the natural tendency as a child to act up and cut up those people in that audience, when their peers were not that we're not having it because we're watching this show and it's good. This is better than good, and you just shut up, sit down. I mean, I hate to say those are but you know that's whether childs they get in there, because if they self police and self regulate, and that, you know, as a former educator, that just tells me that you on the right tree. You're you. You nailed it as a production, it was nailed. And I think that goes into what Rico was saying about professional expectations.

Ad  25:38

I'm Bonnie miles, membership coordinator of CET. Thank you for listening to Rodney veal's Inspired by this podcast is a production of cet and think TV two local PBS stations as PBS stations, the work we do online, on air and in the community is supported by listeners like you. If you're enjoying the show and would like to support our work, please consider becoming a member at CET connect.org or think tv.org Plus, when you sign up to donate at least $5 a month, you'll get access to special members only streaming videos on the PBS app through passport. Learn more at CET connect.org or think tv.org If you're enjoying this conversation, the art show, also hosted by Rodney, is available to stream anytime from anywhere on YouTube or the PBS app.

Bruce Wade  26:27

I will, I will say this, you mentioned earlier, joy, the joy of our upbringing. Part of of the aim of the production that we just did was to share joy. I wanted the musician to be joyful. I want the storytellers to be joyful, creating an environment during the process of putting this show together, where the players were allowed to lean into joy. Yes, you actually can have fun doing this, and the audience will join you, because it is. They are. They were authentically joyful. There were things that, that that happened, that I was so yeah, brought me joy to moments where, oh, the give and take between the percussionist, yes, that was, again, part of of I guess it will harken back to my experience with the improviser early in Cincinnati, allowing people to find their voice, creating an environment where you are allowed, and you're allowed to find Your voice, and we give your voice value. We value. We need your voice to complete this picture. There was a moment during the rehearsal process where the drummer and the percussionist created a call and response moment that they found organically. Thank you very much. I'm writing that down, and then I'm going to tell everybody I came up with it. It was, it was just, there were moments like that that was, that was what we needed to have happen. What, what I think, what, when you you mentioned the the the engagement of the audience member, the children, right, absolutely what they saw.

Rodney Veal  28:26

They saw and they felt it. And as an audience member, I felt it. And so let's talk about this production. Because this production, I mean, like I said, I'm still talking about it, but what I love, what I loved about it, is it spoke to something that I think is sorely lacking, especially in this day and age. We don't have to go where you made a case for a certain age group to understand the current lands creative landscape did not happen by accident. It is rooted in a history. It's rooted in a shared history, but it's rooted in a specific history at the same time. Yes, and I think that's what the audience was. They were you, you did it in a way that I could understand that these kids were making connector dots. They were connecting the dots. You just showed them, illustrated it for them, and they were making the connection. It's

Kathy Wade  29:31

interesting. You would say that, because when I had the thought of, first of all, I had to jockey to get the spot right to be able to produce the educational component, even that was rooted in what typically happens who ends up at the table and who doesn't end up at the table. And I made a decision, once I heard about this America's river roots, that I was gonna have a spot at the table. I really didn't care. I had to ask or maybe tell. But however you want to phrase it, I just knew we had to be there. So once we once I got that spot, I found myself saying, Oh, we can produce the educational program. No problem. That's what we do. We got a whole books alive for kids, platform, I can make water run. Don't even worry about the river. I will bring it. We'll bring the river to the stage. It's basically and we will show people the migration of the people and the migration of their music because of the migration of the people, right the crossing of paths. This is what happened. So that was actually when I called Bruce and said, Hey, this is what we're going to do. I have a show called Black anthology of music, the the resilience of jazz, and this history of you follow the history of jazz, you follow the development of this country, right? Yes, absolutely. And what we did when I called Bruce, I said, so I'm looking at Black anthology of music meets the rest of the of the people on this migration runway as they are traversing the waterways. This is what's happening. I need to pick up those pieces that we don't necessarily talk about in the history of jazz, right? Because everything starts with the beat of the drum, or, no, the beat of the heart, which is transferred to the beat of the drum in Africa, it all starts there, right? So how do you tell people that, so that they get it and that they embrace it and that it's it's okay, it's not a it's not a bad thing. It's not something we're going to dismiss. It's history, and if you understand this history, you can then celebrate the richness of all of our backgrounds, collectively. So for me, that was the goal that and I was asked a couple of times, well, what do you think the reaction is going to be? The reactions should be joyous, because we just painted a beautiful picture of how the connectivity, the collaboration, the joining of, the exchanging of is a good thing, but you can't get that good thing unless we celebrate all of the mosaic

Rodney Veal  32:14

all. You can't pick and choose which square of the mosaic and so. And there's something really, really Kellie, that this is because you said it, you talked about you didn't wait for an invitation to the table, because it's a tendency. And this is something like the thing that we're adding into the podcast as this question, because it can feel like you're an imposter if you are at the table and you don't have the confidence to get that table. So let's talk about the confidence to say, oh, I need to be at that table and not feel like you're not supposed to be at the table because you we, we call, we harbor that. I mean, let's talk about, yeah,

Kathy Wade  32:55

I think that just comes from as as Bruce mentioned earlier, you know, you do something repetitively, and your confidence level should rise. Every success should bring you another level of, Oh, I could do that. Or it should take you from anxiety to awesome. Boy, that was awesome. I'm gonna do that again. Amusement parks, because I don't like those rides to go dippity. I can't do I can't even I can barely get in the elevator, right? Oh, wow. You know I was on the highway this morning. I can barely drive the highway, but I have to wrap my head around it, because I've got to meet that right to get to where I'm going, I've got

Rodney Veal  33:42

you to confront it like you had to face it. Gotta do it.

Kathy Wade  33:45

And sometimes I say it to myself where I'm just gonna have to pony up, put, put your big girl bottoms on and get it going right? It never ends. It's always there. But if I get to where we want to go, or where we're headed to go, and we were successful in getting there, I'm good to go for the next I will not hesitate. The next time something comes up, I will find whoever I need to find, and say so I know there's a chair there for me, and if not, I'll just bring mine with me, as as quote, as stated by some very prolific woman, you know you have to, yes, you can. And don't get me wrong, there are times when I beat my nobody can beat me up better than me.

Rodney Veal  34:36

Oh, that is such a true statement. I think nobody

Kathy Wade  34:39

can be, nobody on the planet that's got more power over beating me up than me, and sometimes I just have to back off and say, Hey, get off. Get off your case. It's okay. And then you go out and you find creatives to work with, like your brother, do. Is Alexander Holmes from the May festival. I mean, it was, he is amazing, working with Dr Tammy.

Bruce Wade  35:08

Tammy canoda, Oh, yes.

Kathy Wade  35:12

But, and part of that, let me, let me be very clear, a lot of intentionality, is that correct? Yeah, in that production, it was, it was intentional that I asked revolution dance theater. I had no idea all of our dancers, two of them came from Ohio State's dance program. They're all in the truth, right? But I had no idea that I was going to end up with six phenomenal young the whole purpose of that is that when they came out, those kids in the audience were like, Oh,

Bruce Wade  35:47

my God, can I do that? You see yourself? Player, right? That's where we start.

Kathy Wade  35:57

And a junior at Walnut Hills, and she opened the show with one of the toughest jazz tunes on the planet, and a note,

Rodney Veal  36:08

no, she didn't. And I know, because I was there, I can testify what you were saying, and the sheer look of shock on my face that I'm like, Who is this old soul, exactly, yeah, at 15 like, whoa. And we, and I knew it was special because, you know, you had multi generational yes representation on the stage, yes, and to see those other musicians give her her props, yes and say, This is the real deal. That's the real deal. It just I left on a high my drive back was like, the sun's out, the birds are chirping. Something really special, yeah, and I think the audience did as well. But I think when you said that intentionality, it's like, you know, for the both of you, it's like, that is the number one thing. I think a lot of times when we the intention, yeah, over time, is like, you're done, right? You're done. You don't they're not proofing anything. You just saying. My intention is to work with these people to do this show. And I'm not looking to the end result. I don't. I'm kind of curious about it, because I'm at a place now where I make art and I just make it, and they're like, so what, how do you think people are going to receive it? I don't know. Not really my business,

Bruce Wade  37:34

and it ain't necessarily for everybody, right? That's

Rodney Veal  37:41

a tough that is a tough one, especially for young people, I think, is young creatives and You two both are, you know, dealing with, like I said, multi generation of folks who are in this realm, in this in this creative realm, music and theater. How do we tell these young people is, like, you can't like, it's, it's a tough thing. Youth be got some, you know, running into the wall. It's like, you know, there is a door right there. You might want to not run into a wall. Yeah, so, how do you translate that in a multi generational setting that doesn't, it's not patronizing, just not saying, how do you how do you do that? I mean, I want this for our audience. You know, yes,

Bruce Wade  38:25

listening is very important. I have had the opportunity over the last seven years to work with a consistently work with young people, high schoolers, middle schoolers, very early in the interaction, I retired a lot of language. It was language that was useful to me. It was didn't mean delicate them, so engaging them and asking them without necessarily stopping the process, but inviting them to share their language again, letting them know that I value their voice. We're in a moment where there are fewer gatekeepers in there. Once we're I used to say there are none there. Yeah, they're still there. There are fewer you have and you have access to to creative outlets that you did not necessarily. I remember this was a yes, a kind of a growing moment for me, because I was disparaging Tiktok a few years ago, okay, and a young man said they telling stories. Oh yes, they are. I'm sorry. I will, I will, I will reconsider. Some of them are not. I know that was, that was, that's what I think that what I said was, that's not a very good story. And he said, there are a lot of bad stories out there. Yeah, you got a point. Okay, okay, right?

Rodney Veal  39:59

I mean. The but yes, but I just find it very interesting that they, that the young people recognize it as storytelling.

Bruce Wade  40:06

Yes, yes, interesting, yes. And I value storytelling. Don't stop there. Don't start. Don't stop at 30 seconds or 10 seconds, 15 seconds, whatever it is, right? Allow your Yes. And it's a gateway.

Rodney Veal  40:22

It's an on ramp. On ramp, right? Yes, and it's not, it's not the above all and end all.

Bruce Wade  40:31

And look around to see what else can be done and what else is doing. What else is being done. Expand your your your worldview. It starts in this small room, but yes, please step outside of the room see what else is going on,

Rodney Veal  40:47

right? Absolutely, because it doesn't, I mean, doesn't it? I mean, as a creator like it, you know, having a larger world view allows you to be even more creative. I find it's like, it's like, there was a one of my, one of my, one of my favorite choreographers, William Forsyth. He had a, I was very lucky to meet you, meet meet an idol, you know, to meet someone on my Oh, if I could only be you, then, you know, I could only be you. And what was really great. He said, You all have tools in your tool belt. My job is just to show you some more tools to add to the belt, and you mix and match those tools. Yes, which is a worldview. It's like, so like, you know, and so I, I like, like, said, You know, I wasn't in the process of the creation I got the I was the beneficiary of watching you two and your group, the group, collaboratives, a lot of people, and I loved it. And I loved it was like, it was so epic. And I was like, Yes, this is what needs, how it's supposed to be done and, and what, what was very interesting is I just feel like, do you know we don't always consider you know what the audience is, but because we're dealing with a young audience of young people, and it was geared towards an audience of young people, are you aware of the possibility of it being the ripple effect to changing the fabric of what it is that we're currently living in.

Kathy Wade  42:24

That is always the goal. So just personally, but from the learning through art lens, that is the goal. We have flipped the three R's, and I hope I get this right, representation, relevance, and I'm losing, I always lose one of the R's, but from our perspective, we have to make sure that you see yourself in whatever we do. You must see yourself to be yourself. So whatever we put out there, it is to reinforce for you. And this has no age limit.

Rodney Veal  43:06

No does it? Earth to death. You got it. We all need the

Kathy Wade  43:10

always see yourself. And if you don't see yourself, then infuse yourself into the picture. Gotta do it. But seeing yourself early in life, this is one of the reasons why we why books of life for kids became such a focal program, a centerpiece program, not only for the organization, but for what we had to do. And I was kicking and screaming when this happened almost 30 years ago, the arts were pulled out of schools, as you know, and everything became integrated arts education, which I didn't understand what the heck that was, because for my world, art needs to be taught for the sake of art, art is what makes us human, and if we utilize art, then we can build bonds and be a much better and more resilient community. Well, I agree 100% you take that, then you need to be able to understand. I couldn't understand. Why wouldn't a child want to read? So I asked my late husband's niece at the time if I had to get into the arts integrated sphere, and I wanted to take books and make them walk across water and speak to people and dance across the floor to engage a child to want to read. What curriculum topic would that fall under? She said, language arts. And I said, or Eureka, let's go and that start. That was the impetus to start books alive for kids. Why wouldn't a child want to read, because we always read. That was like the first rule of life in the house. Now that's that. That's the story within itself. If you didn't read, reading and proper grammar, oh, don't end the sentence with a preposition, because you go your mouth up on the other side of the room. Now, go get your mouth, and when you put. Back on make sure that prepositions in the right place. Okay? Yep, you know. So I not understanding the need, the desire not to want to read, just kind of baffled me. So that was the impetus in saying, first, let's figure out how to engage kids to read. Once we got that figured out, now what else? Who else needs to be at the table with this child? Well, the whole family. So now we wrap the entire family into this, into this right and engagement. At the same time, we are empowering parents, adults, caregivers, guardians. We're empowering you with the skill set that we've developed to show you, you too can do this. You don't need us to do this. You can do it yourself. I'm just gonna show you real quick. Here you go. That has now morphed into a platform, an app, streaming episode,

Rodney Veal  45:51

and it just keeps expanding Exactly. And

Kathy Wade  45:55

now it's first production. So what's going to happen with this? We are now going to take the script because we couldn't find a book books alive for kids. It's all based on taking existing or existing books and making them come alive, right? Okay? And one of the driving forces of that is making sure that when we pick a book, we curate books that will embrace, celebrate and demonstrate you belong here because you see yourself here. So what we're going to do next, since we couldn't find a book that captured the history as we just told it to you in sounds from the river, we're taking the script and turning that into the book, and now we're an illustrator. Oh, that we

Rodney Veal  46:42

let me. Let me hook you up out after the podcast. All right, I have some suggestions on some

Kathy Wade  46:49

illustrators. Oh, my God, that suggestions, because my next another thing of making yourself visible at the table. That's our next thing. And now that we now that I've conquered that fear, because I never really wanted to write books, we have the publishing rights for paperback that we use, but that's not owning the book. Now that we have a book that we own, sky's the limit. We can do this with anything, not only that, but having produced this highly engaging performance in one of the cities, as they put in the press release, most prestigious theaters in town, right? I said to my brother, you know, I never thought that I would get to this age of

Rodney Veal  47:47

Yes, and here we are

Kathy Wade  47:53

at the PNG in the air now. I mean, who would have thought it that was not in my meal plan?

Rodney Veal  47:59

I say that all the time. It wasn't my meal plan, and so that, I love the fact that that, you know, because this is all starting from a very simple word, intentional,

Kathy Wade  48:10

yes, intentional. And saying that intentional was almost saying it with fire, because there's so much crazy out here right now. So you have to be intentional. You absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And it's a teaching opportunity. Oh, every moment

Rodney Veal  48:27

say that. Say that again. And I mean, and that's important for people to understand the power of live performance. Yes, you just can't, you know, you got to make, you got to make the time and exert the effort. Yes, absolutely, you know. And it was, you know, so, so I had to tell people that, you know, when we received the invitation, it got lost in the email a little bit. And then we got a reminder, thank you, Carissa. And then so, but then that's the joy, that's the joy of being in a creative realm, of realizing you make the effort and look what the embarrassment of riches that I received as a patron, as someone who who's in this world. But then I got to the joy of witnessing, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, world class, thank you. World class, world I mean, it was, it was a it was a man. It was so rich about the experience. And I just thought to myself, and when you and you something would you said earlier, I was like, no one has put this story down in a way that can be reproduced for that age group to fill in the gap. Because, like I said, Now the curiosity is like, Well, where else can I go with this exploration? Like, where else can like, this needs to be, and it is the stepping stone to that corner of exploration. And so. What is next for the two of you? Your collaborative beyond the book,

Kathy Wade  50:06

I mean, say this, okay, we had the privilege and the opportunity to present the show to the general public at the Americas river Roots Festival. You think the sixth graders reaction was something you should on adults, I had grown men screaming at the top of their lungs when we made it clear that we understood the historical journey and timing of the story. Timing in terms of chronological order and being able to physically and melodically present that with music that they knew, I'm I'm here to tell you when we finally got to Zydeco bluegrass, right? They were like, Yeah, I get it. I see how this goes together. I can see that migration. I can I mean, it was amazing. It was just amazing. So that being said, one of the things that we're looking at, and Bruce and I have already had this discussion, you know, how do we bottle, package this up and take it on the road, and keeping in mind that it can be a theater piece in anybody's theater for any age group, but most definitely something that we can insist families come and see Together

Rodney Veal  51:37

Absolutely. Oh, I totally see that. And so I have just in awe. I'm just like, No, as a, you know, like I said, it's like, I'm in awe of that sort of grand thinking. And, you know, because a lot of times we have a tendency to kind of be like you said, our own worst critic, our own worst internal stopping mechanism to moving forward. And so what would you say to you know, folks who, who, who may have that inside of them ready to kind of jump on the on that this, I think, is a fabulous place to be. I'm trying to get as many people on this side of the fence is humanly possible. It's like, Get get on board with this thinking, because it'll change your world and your life and other people's lives, right? What would you say to them? What do you would you say to them to get them on board?

Bruce Wade  52:35

We need your voice. We and you are enough.

Kathy Wade  52:42

Yeah, I like that you are enough. Wow. And if you want to be more, you can

Bruce Wade  52:50

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And in fact, and when you collaborate, you will

Kathy Wade  52:54

become more you do,

Bruce Wade  52:57

you will encounter voices that you had not anticipated, and they will push you further than you had thought possible.

Kathy Wade  53:05

This is a great example, as you know, in the beginning of the show, which the whole water thing was a just a conversation I had with Bruce. I said, so I'm thinking, we need water. How do we make that happen, we literally sent our stage manager on a virtual hunt to identify various vendors, because there's no there. There aren't any fabric stores anymore, right, right, right. Can't run out to the mall and get some, get a piece of fabric. So we found a company in California who assured me, oh, you know, Miss way, we'll have it there in three days. Okay, you got I got time, that's good. I'm gonna pray to get this right. So we found the chiffon with just enough glitter in it to really make you feel like it was the water and the water in two different shades blue, yes, just a minute once we got because it ran the length of the aisle, right? Yes, it did. Yes. Thought that came to our minds during rehearsal was okay, the water is flat in the middle. Let's put a person in there that got us another set of kids. I was like, Oh, this is, this is happening, to see that water just to go from river to this exactly. Yes, exactly. So, you know, in the grand scheme of things, it's always, it's that, that collective input, but it all really starts with just somebody saying so, I know it's four o'clock in the morning, Bruce, but I'm just thinking about

Rodney Veal  54:51

this. Oh, you send those 4am to

Bruce Wade  54:58

a lot of waking up in the middle of an. I go, Oh, wait a minute, this will

Kathy Wade  55:03

work exactly, exactly.

Rodney Veal  55:06

So, you know, oh, it was, it was, it was a masterful effect, because what it did, you broke the wall. Yes, that was and so

Kathy Wade  55:17

like that, you get to bring your imagination to

Rodney Veal  55:21

this, yeah, absolutely in it and the and they that there, it was riotous. Their response to that. It was, it was like, it was like, they were like, Oh, so you can, you can do that. Yeah, you said, break the wall. Okay? Because, you know, there's, there wasn't a distance. It was it was engaging. Then they saw how young they were, and then they saw that they were moving. They had a move of vocabulary that felt contemporary. Yes, yes, thank you. Absolutely. Do you say like all it's like, you know, it's like, that's why when I it's not just that you buy a ticket and you sit down and get entertained, there's a whole thought process that makes a production successful that I want the audience to understand. How so, how long did it take you guys would to come like to produce this?

Kathy Wade  56:12

You know, I Okay, so on our 30th anniversary, like, well, maybe Paul Starkey said to me, there's a function, a new event that's being brewed, that's being planned. And I said, What? And he said, America's river roots. And I said, who's, you know, running it? I want to be in from the moment that I finished the conversation, the first conversation, and getting to the point of realizing that we were going to be given the opportunity to produce the educational program and actually putting the time in. I probably called Bruce 10 months ago. Maybe it wasn't quite a year. It was not. And there was just a conversation I just, as I said to you earlier, hey, we're going to start at the black, at book, at the black, a black anthology. We're going to start there and add and you know, once you start writing grants and having to tell people, This is what we're doing, you you can then refine your boilerplate statement. And the better I was able to refine that statement really gave credence, I think, for his next step. And then one of the things that I had to really think about was I know the times that we live in, so I need to be very strategic and intentional about who's working with us. My second call was to take Dr Tammy, as I like to call her, musicologist and historian beyond belief, and to watch there, to watch the emails between Bruce and Dr Tammy was just masterful, I mean. But honestly, I think the moment a full circle, moment of understanding the impact that our parents had on us in terms of jazz was when I first saw his song list.

Rodney Veal  58:17

Okay, so

Kathy Wade  58:18

DAG, this is great. Somebody learned something. Dr Tammy, she writes back, this is great. This is great. So it is that process all started, I'd say that 10 months ago, and finally, when he put pen to paper, maybe six months ago,

Rodney Veal  58:49

maybe, wow, right?

Kathy Wade  58:53

That's it, when you when you know you know, when you know you know. But that's like, writing is so profound. I am. I had, let me just say this at the public performance, the bass player cadence, her dad, one of her parents, was always with her, right? The dad brought her to that particular gig, and I promised him that I would introduce him to Bruce because he read verse note all of it. He critiqued the heck out of the show, and kept saying the writing was so rich, I just need to meet the writer. I said, That's my brother, and when he comes in, I'll call cadence and y'all just come on over, because he's got so much to say. He said, I just want you to know the thing that I was left with is that I was left wanting more. And if you're ever left wanting more, you're going to have a hit on your

Rodney Veal  59:49

hands. That is a good that is that is nice. So you know, you're right. Like I said, it was it. It was for me. I was like, and then have such a beautiful narrator, oh, yes, yes. Mo pay, a couple. Now, yes, I

Kathy Wade  1:00:11

made that call because I, once again, we were applying for a grant that we did not get, which is fine, because what I did get was a mo pay. I can find, we'll find some

Rodney Veal  1:00:23

money, right? But you can't find an omope. There's only one, and

Kathy Wade  1:00:27

I one of one chair and OMO pay. In fact, my omope has known me. My daughter is 48 she has known me for 49 years because I was pregnant when we met. Okay, wow. Actually, I was not pregnant. I got pregnant when, after I had met her, we were all in Hanna, robicon, temporary gospel ensemble from the University of Cincinnati. And I kept thinking to myself, I need a noticed, a noted storyteller that will talk to me today and tell me yes and no, I don't have time to go through agents. I don't need to make up somebody. I need to go to somebody who does this and does it well, and she's got a national reputation. So I know call, I said, this is what I'm thinking. This is what I'd like. You're going to be the griot storyteller. And of course, at that point, I didn't have a script that I had Bruce, so I figured, be good to go.

Rodney Veal  1:01:23

And what the thing is, there's a trust Yes, because of the authenticity of Yes, of the work that you have done and do, and Bruce does, or Rico, you know, do you have something in the sense of that, once you have that, yeah, and, like I said, she's just, oh my god, she was every time I get in the room with her, I am having a good I'm having I am just like, I'm like, this, let me just listen to take me on this journey and explain this world to me. And I think that that's really what was telling I love that. Like you said, it left you wanting more. And so you know, as as as folks who are listening to because there'll be people who are in the arts who are going to listen to this, but there are people who are not in the arts, right? How do we convince those folks who are not in the arts at the what that skill set of knowing how to make something that inspires and pulls all of us collectively forward? What role do they play in this? The non artist like, what are your thoughts on that? Go

Bruce Wade  1:02:38

ahead, there's value in what, what? There's value in storytelling. It is important. It's it is it is it enriches your soul. It makes for a fuller and richer society. This is vital. It is vital to the health of our society, be a part of be a part of this. Be a

Rodney Veal  1:03:09

part. Oh yes, I love that absolutely

Kathy Wade  1:03:14

and and bring yourself, bring

Bruce Wade  1:03:16

your you and you belong. It one of the things that for this, this particular performance, um, we talked about the river. It was one of the things that was gratifying. It was here. A parent mentioned that watching students come into the Aran off and being somewhat intimidated, yes, and then watching them leave the are enough, knowing this space is for me. Yes, you have, you belong here. That was so gratifying. You belong in this process, be a part of this.

Rodney Veal  1:03:49

Oh, there just must be something in the water, because I just wrote an op ed talking about that. Excellent I'm just saying. I just, I just turned it in today. Oh, wonderful, because there is there. There's a value. And I always said in this, this podcast is has been about this, the conversation, it's not a, it's not a, oh, I have a scripted question. No, it's a conversation. I even described it as we're gonna have a couple gonna have a conversation. We're gonna have a conversation. Yeah, and that's what it should do. These things are like, you belong. Like, there's no reason, because that's what stops people. I mean, I see some people like, I don't belong. I want to know that's not for me. I'm like, Who told you it wasn't for you? I want to know that the sky's the limits. When you realize that it's you are value, you have a value, and you have something that you add to the table. And the two of you have demonstrated that, and have talked about it, and it's just it. It, that's all I got is so I'm grateful. I'm open. My audience was grateful, but this has been the most delightful conversation I could ever have had to start kick off. Oh yeah,

Kathy Wade  1:05:17

I just do one shameless

Rodney Veal  1:05:19

little plug. Go ahead, do that shameless plug. Yes. I just you

Kathy Wade  1:05:23

know, this happened a couple of years ago when we won Emmys. Yes, I don't know if there's any more history out here about this or not, but we actually won Emmys The same year. And I said, during the rehearsal process, I turned to him and I said, Now what do you think our parents would say? Have no idea.

Rodney Veal  1:05:45

And I, you know, and I was there, I interviewed you. You did. Kellie came off the stage because, you know, a part of this world that I didn't see coming, yeah. So we, like, I said that, I think that's the reason why we connected to Bob, because I was like, I understand. I understood. I understood where you were coming from. And now these two look at all those Multiple regional Emmy winners on a screen.