Heather & Jeffrey Cortland Jones

In this episode of "Rodney Veal's Inspired By" we are joined by Heather Jones, an artist and Director of Programs and Engagement at The Contemporary in Dayton, and her husband Jeffrey Cortland Jones, an artist and art educator. The pair reflects on their backgrounds, their hardships and obstacles, and on the stark benefits that come from being in a family of artists.

Follow Heather on social media: @heatherjonesstudio

Follow Jeffrey on social media: @jeffreycortlandjones

Transcript

SPEAKERS
Rodney Veal, Ad, Heather Jones, Jeffrey Cortland Jones

Heather Jones  00:00
I want to instill in my children the idea that they can do anything they want, and if that means then that I'm going to do anything that I want. Now that I'm 30 years old, you know, I'm sure it didn't hurt that I was married to an artist. He would encourage me to find my creative voice, not only find it, but also use my creative voice.

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  00:19
It was kind of my job to give her the space and the freedom and the permission to fail and to experiment and to kind of figure out what she needed to say as as an artist,

Rodney Veal  00:32
 I just don't think we always give ourselves as art makers that permission to kind of try it and just crash, crash and burn. Well, hello everyone, and welcome to Rodney villes, inspired by Podcast. I'm Rodney Ville the host, and today, as I stumbled over in my thought process. This is the second time we've actually had two people on the podcast, and I like to refer to them as the dynamic duo of the art scene of Dayton, Ohio, so I'm fanboying out. I they're they're just the most lovely people on the planet and incredible artists in their individual rights, on their own terms and turf, but they bring so much to the community, and they bring so much to the art world, and I'm super excited to have them as a guest on the show. So welcome to Heather and Jeff Jones, welcome to inspired by thanks.

Heather Jones  01:40
Thanks for having us. 

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  01:41
Thank you, Rodney,

Rodney Veal  01:43
super cool, like I said, you know, dynamic duo. We always, I always love to go in the hot tub, time machine and go back in time. Because, you know, you don't always as as a, as a you're fully formed as an artist. But was this always for both of you and individually, always the the path that you were going to take you that creativity was it art you didn't have, didn't plan to be a veterinarian or a doctor or anything else. So tell me about your Tell me about your childhoods.

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  02:18
Heather, I'm gonna let you go first.

Heather Jones  02:20
Okay, thanks, yes, and no, I was always creative. I mean, I remember making things with my hands when I was small, 534, or five. Loved art all through elementary school, junior high, high school, but when I started college. I started pre med, because my mother was an artist, and she had gone to school for art education. And it's not that she wasn't encouraging, but she also was realistic, and she knew sort of how tough it is or was, or could be to be an artist. So I also, you know, at the same time I loved art, I also loved science, and I came from a line of both creative folks, but also doctors. My grandfather was a doctor here in Dayton, Ohio, and all of his siblings were doctors. So that's what I started in college, but I took art history classes as electives, and really just sort of fell in love with that as well. And so my third year in college, I decided to change my major, after sort of a life changing trip to Greece, as one would do when going to Parthenon in person. And I was like, Well, you know, I think I only live once I'm going to change my major, but at that time, I'm away from the studio for, you know, a number of years. And for me, as someone who doesn't love the spotlight, it was easier to focus on other people as artists, rather than claiming myself as an artist. So I went into art history at that point, and that the rest is through history,

Rodney Veal  03:56
ah, which we will dive into. So, Jeff, what got you going?

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  03:59
 I actually was the performer I was in musical theater my entire life. I art was not even like Visual Arts was not even in my mirror, but I was super interested in graffiti art and street art. And this is very, very early. This is in the mid 90s and such, before it became the kind of cool, hip thing that it is today. But in my case, it was more for just being a vandal. Is punk kind of thing where, you know, I'll be completely honest, it wasn't necessarily for the art form, you know, it was more for just the expression, but really, musical theater was my life, you know, from when I was about six years old, up until, and this is where Heather and I kind of parallel until my third year in college, just like Heather when I switched my major from musical theater to painting, and really retired from musical theater at that moment. It because I my last show that I ever did was studying the Park with George, where I paid played the painter, George Sauron. And so when the curtain closed on that performance, it closed on my musical theater career, and I started painting

Rodney Veal  05:16
that is so appropriate. I mean Sunday in the Park. I mean George Surat. So I mean, I mean, what is it about? I mean, because I when I know myself personally, you know that when I made a decision to kind of stick to the art realm and not political science, there's just that spark. It's just, is there even Heather, you kind of touched on this, like this emoji you were going into art history, and is really about other artists, but then it becomes about yourself. And so what internally is, was driving the sort of kind of artistry in the sense of, you know, because you know your art, both of your artworks are your art, practices are uniquely your own. And I'm kind of curious about that.

Heather Jones  06:01
Yeah, I mean, for me again, you know, it goes back to my youth. I always was making things by hand, but it was always difficult for me to see me as an artist, even though I was making art since I was little, and I don't know if that is, you know, programmed into our society. You know, it was, again, I'm not like one to bask in the spotlight, so I don't love the attention on me. So it was easier to sort of fit in and just continue, continue to create. But I would say it really then, wasn't until I had our first child, when I was 30 years old, that I realized that, you know, I could do things that I never really thought was possible, and that I could see myself as an artist. And I think because when I became a parent, I wanted to teach my children that they could do anything in their in the world that they wanted to do. And that was a, not necessarily, a lesson that was shared with me at a younger age. It wasn't until I was older and saw again, maybe life through the eyes of a child, that I realized that, you know, I want to instill in my children the idea that they can do anything they want, and if that means then that I'm going to do anything that I want now that I'm 30 years old, and that's kind of how that sort of revelation came to my mind.

Rodney Veal  07:26
That's such a cool revelation. I mean, oh, children do that. I mean, it's and I love the fact that you wanted to give them the choices and the option and kind of like, sort of embody it, versus, hey, you could do anything, but it's really nice to see that the parents are doing anything, or they're doing their thing. And so, you know, my parents, yeah,

Heather Jones  07:50
no, go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go, go, go, go. No, I was gonna say, you know, I'm sure it didn't hurt that I was married to an artist and that he encouraged. You know, he's not only an artist, he's also an educator. And you know, I, as I mentioned, my degrees are in art history, so I don't have, you know, the BFA. I don't have an MFA, but I was married to someone who did, and he also instilled the idea that, you know, as an educator, he would encourage me to find my creative voice, not only find it, but also use my creative voice. So, you know, I think, you know, in my realm, it was I had the support and encouragement of a partner as well.

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  08:34
Yeah, it was, it was kind of my job to give her the space and the freedom and the permission to fail and to experiment and to kind of figure out what she needed to say as as an artist, wow.

Rodney Veal  08:50
I thank you for saying the thing about the permission to fail. That's a there's this really beautiful book Sarah Lewis wrote it. It's about the it talks about the Gift of Failure and the and and the mastery of the creative arts. And it's a really great book. So if you get a chance, I highly recommend that she's coming to Springfield, and I just love that, because I don't think we, I just don't think we always give ourselves as art makers that permission to kind of try it and just crash, crash and burn.

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  09:23
I have that conversation almost daily with my students where, like in my intro painting class, where they're trying to figure out how oil paint works for the first time, I always tell them, we're never going to make a finished piece, and if we have to abandon it halfway through and it fails, then we won, right? And so, because it's about that, it's about that journey and kind of that discovery of themselves, and not necessarily the final thing that they put on the wall,

Rodney Veal  09:52
yeah, and that's a, I think that's a for me. It's, I find it's interesting, because as art makers, we do when we don't give a suspension to fail. But I don't think non artists understand that, that it is, that's why it takes so long to get to the finished product that's on the wall. This may be the third, fourth, fifth, 12th iteration of the attempt. And what I've noticed, and even in the conversation with I'm not just visual artists, and in this podcast, is on all the art forms we are. We are literally the most experimental people on the planet, other than scientists. And so I

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  10:27
talked to my students about how they do have to be the most well rounded human being possible. They have to be mathematicians, they have to be anthropologists, they have to be archeologists, they have to be storytellers, they have to be carpenters, they have to be engineers. You know, just all of those things that they have to know everything about in order to make a piece of art or something creative,

Rodney Veal  10:52
is just that that's that's such a cool mark of that's why you guys are the cool dynamic duo of the arts, because it's like, because you're imparting these life lessons beyond just the technical. And that's usually always That, to me, that's always the kind of hallmark of great teaching is that you recognize it's not just a thing. It's more than the thing.

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  11:13
Yeah, I tell the kids the first day of class, if they want to learn how to paint, then they're not coming to the right person. But if they want to learn how to paint, then they're at the right person, right? It's two different things. It's kind of the technique versus the lifestyle, the thought process.

Rodney Veal  11:34
I love that. I love that. And I think, um, what do you because, you know, you're in the classroom, Jeff. I mean, one of the Do you think that art is it? And this is about being an artist in the art, because you're still a working artist as well as an educator. This is, you know, typical of all of us in these in these forms. We still do what we do. What is one of the things that is really interesting, because you're teaching these first years, people that are coming into painting, are there just some misconceptions about not just the process, but the world of art that they're entering in? Do these students come in with a misconception of what the

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  12:13
art world is? Yeah, they one. Sometimes they think that it's much more difficult than than it is. They think that they're going to go in and always be hungry and always be poor and never going to make it. So there's always a lot of doubt from the first time they walk in the door. But then the other thing is, is they feel like they don't have to put in the work, and it's called artwork, and they think that they can just show up in the studio for their class and then go back to some other part of their life and succeed. And so by doing that, they kind of do make the other part, the hard part, happens. But if they get to work and they put in the time, and they fail, and they keep getting themselves up and doing it again, then it is much, much easier than they think, and especially if they build an amazing support system like this community has provided, Heather and myself.

Rodney Veal  13:18
No, I love that about the support system. And I love that. Thank you for that, because I think I've had these conversations with artists in Cincinnati and folks in the Dayton region, and we're all saying the same thing. It's like this whole notion of you got to do the work. You got to it is, it is tedious. There's some tedious parts to it. There's a process, there's you can't skip steps, and even and so and so I what I've encountered, and I get it from the Performing Arts in because I taught at Stivers, the kids that thought they were automatically going to be superstars. And I'm like, that's not how it works. Do you think, a lot of folks, is that a is that a common thing in the visual arts world? Because I know for the Performing Arts, it seems to be this, I'm constantly having to talk people into the harsh reality, yeah.

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  14:14
I mean, they think that they don't have to put in the work and they'll be famous, and it's not necessarily the case. You know you have to, you do have to show up. You have to show up even when you don't want to show up.

Rodney Veal  14:30
Oh, that's that's a key. There are so many. So what happens when you guys have to, both of you and you're like, have to show up when you even know whether you don't want to? How do you motivate yourselves to get in there? Because you're like you're juggling family, art, making, curating, education. I mean, you, whoa. I thought I was doing a lot, but clearly I'm not.

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  14:53
So I got, I got the best cheerleader in the world. Well, you know, best cheerleader i.

Heather Jones  15:00
Yeah, I think, I don't know. I think we don't have a lot of free time. I feel like we, you know, our free time, what little we have, it's spent with the family, our kids. Our kids are teenagers, but they still enjoy hanging out with us, which is fun. And I don't know, I have been really, really cognizant of the passing of time this year. So deadlines are a big motivator. But when I don't have deadlines, I've just been really sort of soaking up, you know, maybe the last few years of the kids at home, I feel like this summer, that was a really big choice of mine, that I haven't worked in the studio as much as maybe I would have liked to, because I know that time is fleeting, and the studio will be there, but the kids, the kids may not be under the roof, that is, you know. So I've Right, right, yeah, really focusing on that. But I think also, I mean, personally, speaking, I think even if you're tired, I think what you get from being in the studio, revives you and energizes you. So even when you feel like you might not want to go, or you may be tired, the benefits are always there. So that is one reason you know that keeps me coming back, even when you know I might not feel like being there physically, right? I'm going to get mentally from it.

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  16:22
Well, I think, I think we support each other really well. Where, if one of us has a deadline, we understand that like we understand that when Heather's working on a big show, she has to get to work, and maybe my role shifts, and maybe I step out of the studio for a little bit so that she can step into the studio, and then we trade off just trying to make sure that each of us have the tools and the resources and the time and the support and the love that we need in order to say something, 

Rodney Veal  16:55
oh, that's, that's, that's so important. Are you guys? Do you? Are you still in that studio space, shared studio space right now.

Heather Jones  17:03
Yeah, we have a studio Up Front Street. The front is a project space that Jeff started, gosh, over 10 years ago, called divisible project space, where we show a new exhibition every month. So in addition, you know, we're also both, I mean, that's I help, but that's really, I think Jeff's bigger project. 

Rodney Veal  17:23
This is why, that's why I'm

Heather Jones  17:25
telling you what. It's lots of moving parts. It's a lot of juggling that goes around. And then Jeff also has a studio at home. I have a studio at home. And Jeff also gets to work some at school, which is nice. Wow.

Rodney Veal  17:40
So you just, it's just this, sir, that's, it was almost like a circuit.

Heather Jones  17:46
It is, yeah, you can't disconnect any part. I mean, it's all, you know, there's not separation between, you know, life as an artist and life as a parent and life as a wife. 

Rodney Veal  17:55
It's all intertwined, all intertwined which is, which is what makes you guys, the dynamic duo of the arts and oh Dane Ohio. I mean, I mean, what I say that with, with a smiley face, but it's really true. You. This is really funny because I was in the before this interview, Richard Nordstrom, one of our videographers, and I said, Hey, I, you know, in a conversation, I said, Richard, I gotta go. Gotta I'm doing a podcast recording, and I'm with Heather and Jeff Jones. And he went. Heather Jones, is she the one that does the quilt, sort of paintings and things? He goes because I I'm a fan. I'm a fan. I'm like, oh my god, okay, calm down, Richard. We're just gonna hear this. He's gonna be mad at me for it, but you have a fan club. I mean, that's kind of like this interesting moment. It's like, what is that like? I mean, because I said you are people do, respect and admire the work that you do, because I think it's because you're on the circuit, you don't have time to for things that don't serve the purpose. I guess is the is the phrase for it?

Heather Jones  19:00
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's very, I mean, it's very kind of you to say and to share the words, you know, I, I don't, I don't even know. I just Yeah. I mean, there's not a lot of extra time. And even, like, when I'm working in the studio Up Front Street. I'm not great about i Because, because my time is so limited, you know, I go to the studio and work the few hours or minutes that I have, so get to work just, I think, very self motivated, and then, you know, on to the next thing. So not a lot of extra time for, you know, I don't know, chit chatting with my studio neighbors and that type of stuff, which is not, you know, a great way to live, but just it's sort of the season that we're in right now with, you know, our responsibilities to our our day jobs, our. Our work abilities to our kids and then each other. So, yeah, it's just, you know, just trying to make it all work. And every day is different. You know, like Joe said, if we have deadlines for exhibitions, things shift, you know, I would say responsibilities can shift. You know, maybe one of us gets the kids off to wherever they need to be, and steps in or dinner or whatever

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  20:26
it is, I think, go ahead. I'm sorry, Heather, I think we collectively do a really good job of being selfless and selfish, and I mean the selfish part in the greatest sense, because sometimes when you say selfish, it's negative. But I think that, I think that what we do collectively is dance between the selfish and the selfless. I mean, we're constantly giving, but we also, when we have to take, we support that taking.

Rodney Veal  20:59
I love that. I Because, you know, I'm always gonna love a dance metaphor. So, you know, I just but it is. It really is. And then I'm so glad you said it that way, because I feel most folks who are in a similar sort of boat with you two as working artists and as a couple, it's that dance. It's the constant dance between those two diametric things and and that's what makes it, that just is a real testament to your character and true testament to the value system that you you both live by, that I feel manifests itself in the work. There's an integrity to the work. The work is beautiful. Is striking. It has deep meaning. And so I just feel like, I mean, does the circuit sometimes of this couple and this family and the circuit of the life that you share inform your work? I'm kind of curious about that.

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  21:59
Well, of course it does. I mean, it has to, because it's all connected and it's so deep and personal, and both of our works are about relationships, about our relationships with each other, our relationships with our community, with our parents with our histories and our futures too, and so we internalize and manifest this narrative about just what it means to be alive in this world and how much we give to each other and to the community. You know, I wasn't ever really given a lot of opportunities as as a young artist. I grew up pretty poor, very lower, lower middle class, if not at the bottom of the barrel sometimes. And so, you know, it's part of it is just giving and giving and giving and giving as much opportunity to people as possible. And that's the thing that's like. When I first saw Heather in the art Library at the University of Cincinnati, before I even knew her name or what she sounded like, or what kind of work she made, there was just this just aura about her, and this energy that it was like, There's something special there. And and so again, the work is all about those kind of relationships. And I won the lottery, man,

Rodney Veal  23:40
oh, yeah, you know, no, I, I understand it. I totally get it. When you, when you, it's, it's, that's, it makes the the bitter sweetness of living bearable when it's, you know, when, when you, when you meet and and you, and you've met in such on such common ground, the both of you do, you know? I mean, that's, that's pretty that's pretty cool, that's

Heather Jones  24:11
officially met at a Halloween party. So it was like, what? Oh yeah, 26 years ago, like yesterday,

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  24:20
yesterday. Oh, my God, we've been together.

Rodney Veal  24:24
Gosh, that's over half your life. And we went, and we actually went on our first real date, 

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  24:28
26 years ago tomorrow,

Heather Jones  24:30
right? 

Rodney Veal  24:30
Nice. Yeah. Is it wild to look back on that? I think you really Yeah.

Heather Jones  24:40
Oh my god, we were babies. 

Rodney Veal  24:42
Oh yeah, yeah, you were. But it's okay though. It's all good. It was, it was all good. It's all good. You know, it's really funny. I have to tell you, this really love is something happened last week, and it was the reason why I call you guys the dynamic duo. There's another dynamic duo in Dayton, Ohio that I just adore, and that's being an Audrey. Davis, 

Heather Jones  25:01
and I them as well. And I

Rodney Veal  25:04
have to tell you, it was, we were at DePaul University, and they are, they were being honored. Bing was being honored for his, you know, contributions to DePauw. And we were in the gallery looking at his artwork. And they were leaving, and he, he held out his hand, and she took his hand, and they just walked hand in, hand out the door. And I thought to myself, That's what I'm talking about. The art was like, that relationship makes this all possible, and that's what you guys are saying. And it's like, it's lovely. It's like, Oh, see, it does work.

Heather Jones  25:45
It does and, you know, we, we both lost a parent, our first kind of both, I lost my father, and she lost her mother, and so we've kind of gone through this life cycle together. You know, we became in this club that no one wants to be in and everybody will belong to one day. And so losing them so close in proximity to each other has even helped us even more, I think, with understanding ourselves, understanding our roles and understanding our work, because there comes this point where both of our works are about the idea of mourning, and then morning, the understanding the grief, the loss. How do you cope with that? But then also, how do you move forward? It's the morning and the morning, the morning, yes, so you know, you have to wake up the next day and and confront what goes on, and then you get to choose the next step that you make after that. And I think that's really kind of informed, again, our relationship with ourselves, our relationship with our children, and our relationship with our work and our community.

Rodney Veal  26:58
Does it? Does it? Does it those, those twin losses, does it? Does that motivate you to even want to do even more? It's kind of a weird thing, like, you know, like, it kind of accelerates the, like, this urgency, this urge for the work, I mean,

Heather Jones  27:18
and, you know, I mean, I'll speak for a second on this I was, and that's three years tomorrow. So yeah, this, this time of year is really powerful. But I was out of town, and it was sudden, and, you know, I was in New York City doing a residency for 10 months, and then I had to come back and deal with, not only the loss of my mom, I was her only child. She was divorced. So all of the you know, business things that come with the end of someone's life, you know, fell on my shoulders as well. So, and no one ever teaches you that. No one ever taught me that. So there were times when, you know, the only thing I could do was sitting on the couch with a pad of paper and a tray of watercolor paint. And I really used making art to, I think, as a form of, you know, healing as a form of, I don't know if I'll say therapy, but, you know, some sort of bomb on my soul. Because, as I said, you know, it was just, you know, the worst thing that ever happened to me. So, you know, again, I'm, I would say grateful to my mom for instilling the love of art. And you know, she was my first art teacher. She made ceramics. And I, you know, I, she encouraged me to do art as well, maybe not as a career, but definitely as a human being. Yeah, no, for sure, absolutely, yeah. She made the most beautiful ceramics, and she put me in classes as a kid. And I was always like, she I'd look at her work, which was like, amazing, and then my work was like, lumpy and just warmed and but I also remember being, like, literally, four years old, and making pots out of mud in my backyard and drying them in the sun and then painting them with watercolor paint. And my dad still has one to this day. So, you know, I feel like I owe her a lot. But also, you know, I was able to tap into what she had taught me, to help me deal with, you know, the worst loss that I could have ever had. So I'm certainly grateful to her for that. But yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I think it, you know, I feel like I've always been cognizant of time in the passing of time, but having a loss really solidifies that in ways that you know, the idea of it cannot,

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  29:48
and I think, and I honestly think her work got better, which I never thought it could, because I always thought she was the greatest to begin with. But then that moment. It, she was able to kind of channel something, and then the next groups of works that she made, it was just like, fearful, tearful, unspeakable, you know, it was just like, that's it. You've said what you need to say. And it just kind of continues and and so it really has been a really important thing.

Heather Jones  30:27
Well, I think, I mean, you know, gosh, if I could change it, I would change it, obviously, and make her still here, if I could. But it also sort of led me to see that the fact that my work is about my matrilineal heritage. It's about my mom, it's about my grandmother's it's about my aunts. It's about women who came before me in ways that I hadn't really thought of until until I lost her. Wow.

Rodney Veal  31:01
Wow. I mean, that's and that's in there, you hope, and you know, like I said, it's very similar to something that Jess McMillan talked about and her and when we did our podcast about the loss of her mother, the realization she was in school, and there was this notion that she had to take care of our sister, and so it became the motivations. I mean, those losses are motivators and so, and I love the because the way that both of you are articulating it is just putting it in a beautiful context, versus it being a devastation. It can also lead to opening a door to a creative process that you may not have even thought you could open a door you could think you could open Yeah, for

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  31:50
sure, yeah. And it completely did that. I actually lost my father on my 50th birthday. So it was this kind of weird, surreal moment, and my baby sister's birthday is the same day as mine, and so there's two of us sitting in the room with the same birthday, holding our father as he passed away, you know? And so there's like, these massive milestone kind of moments where you you suddenly get old, if he's not old. But you know what I mean? It's like, wow. And then all of a sudden, at the same moment, you're reckoning with this tragic moment in your life. And it's, it's devastatingly beautiful, right? And it really, it makes you think about the work and life differently.

Rodney Veal  32:48
Absolutely, I mean it, and it comes through in both your works. This just, I do you feel like the work that you're, you've made since, feels like a leap, like an ever, almost like, I hate to say them in these terms, but like an evolutionary leap forward, like you skipped, because it just kind of pushed you and because you talked about tools like, like life, I always believe life is tools. Is full of these tools that will inform movement and art making and just your connections other people. But did you feel like this is evolutionary step and now you're like, Whoa. It's like,

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  33:27
yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we both instantly started to explore scale in our work. I think, I think our and I'm speaking for Heather a little bit here, and she can jump in. But I feel like our sensitivity to color has changed, where we've always been sensitive and thoughtful about color. I really think that we're both color theorists, but like our relation, our relationship to color, our relationship to seeing the world around us, and how the subtle shifts of the color of the sky influences and impacts the work. I think our tool usage enough to go back to that word that you were just saying. I think our tool usage in the way that we handle materials has has changed and elevated, and I think the work has gotten both more introspective and

Heather Jones  34:32
focused and at the same time universal. I mean, I feel like, you know, we're tapping into, you know, issues of that are universal to people, you know, just sort of learning where they're from, connecting to, you know, those who came before us, and you know, making work, you know, is relevant today, but hopefully in the future as well.

Ad  34:57
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Rodney Veal  35:46
that's one of the things that I've always espoused and kind of have talked about, is that I try to just encourage people to go see art, go see go go to a gallery, go to a museum, go to a performance, go to that coffee shop and hear that beat poet do whatever you know, go stand on the street corner and watch them break whatever it is, because that this is going to give you more information than the act itself, because there's just it's like a book. There's so many pages of information and layers of information. It's right there in front of you, and it speaks to, hopefully, like you said, to the universal. It speaks it. I believe all art does, there's there's, I refuse to believe that. You know that some art is just purely surface, because there has to be a thought process even behind the surface. So there's already another layer. Because if someone thought of this and their and their motivations, why and so, how do we in a world that we currently live in, like, how? What do we say to folks about the art and art making, especially in a democracy? I mean, what are your thoughts on that? This first time I've ever asked that question, I'll be honest with you. I think the two of you, because you guys are so connected, just like I am and several other people in our community. 

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  37:10
Well, all art is political. You know, no matter if it's a white square on a white wall or it is a extremely narrative photograph, or it's all political. You're all trying to say something about how you reckon with the world. I think there's so much noise now. There's so much digital noise. There's so much noise in screens and in amount of information and in politics and that it's our job to start going through all of that kind of filtering it and sifting it and trying to be truth tellers. I think it's our job as artists to slow down society, yeah, and make people understand a little bit more about themselves and that it's not just constant go, that there has to be constant stop. And I think the work that we both make is all ask the viewer to stop and to look into question and to reflect right. Our job is to reward the public for spending time with the work that we both we both work abstractly. We both work in this kind of a lot of people look at it go, Oh, that's easy, that's boring, that's whatever you want, but that and that's totally fine. That's totally fine, because I'm not trying to speak to everyone, right? And if, and if you don't, if you can't find the time to spend looking, then you're going to miss what Heather has to tell you about the world. And so I think in this political and social and financial environment. Our job is to tell the truth.

Heather Jones  39:23
I think also, you know, I mean, going back to this idea of, you know, art in the time of you know, or how it relates to a democracy, I mean, I look at art, you know, be it visual art, be it, you know, dance, be it music. I mean, it's a manifestation of your soul, right? It is creating something, a dance piece, a piece of music, a painting and a sculpture that can only come from you. So it's worker chair. It's a reflection of your soul. So it is to me, you know, it's so tied to you. Each of us as a person, which, you know, everyone is unique. Everyone is an individual. I mean, in the times that I've taught, you know, I'm teaching a project and giving a student the same amount of materials, the same exact materials, the same project, the same instructions, every project is going to look different. I mean, you can work with the same ingredients and follow the same set of rules, but it's all going to be different, because it's a manifestation of your soul, and so it is tied to the individual, and which is, to me, the most democratic thing that it can be. You know, these are all reflections of us as a person, and it's our job, and some of us, you know, maybe are more tapped into that. I feel like everyone is creative. Sometimes people shut that out, but it's all there. I mean, look at children like their young kids are. They gravitate to dance and they gravitate to sound and singing and drawing with crayons and anything they can get their hands on. And it's not till they get older that they sometimes, you know, I feel like, let the outside world in and stop, you know, connecting with that inner creativity that they have inherently, which is a shame, right? I feel like that's that is, yeah. But, you know, it's all in us. It's in us all. It's just up to us, whether or not we listen to it well.

Rodney Veal  41:20
So yeah, keep going

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  41:21
go just right now, with everybody being so connected and having so much information, you would think that that would make us more individuals, but it's turning everyone into robots. Everybody you know has the same catchphrase now or the same meme or the same hairstyle or the clothing, and, you know, and I see that at the university, especially where all I see are clones of everyone else, and everyone's doing the exact same thing and and part of our job is to break that cycle. What Heather was saying is, like when they're when they're younger, they do show themselves when they get older, they they morph into each other.

Rodney Veal  42:10
I love that. That's so true. You know that that there's a phrase for it. I don't remember the author, but the book is called filter world, and it's this questioning of digital culture flattening. Our culture, like our society, like it's flattening. It's like that flattening just is, in essence, the homogeneization, the blandness this, the they all dress the same. They all look the same, same, memes the same. And it's but the but what the artists you know truly pursuing creative artists, and creativity is spiking above the filter and the flattening, and I think that's the sweet spot. I always felt like, God, that's the place to be. I'm like, why would you want to be, you know, like, and I, and it's really interesting about because you said something earlier, Jeff about people see an abstraction, and they think, oh, a child could do that, or I could do that. It's like, that's easy. It's like, well, no, not easy. And you talk about scale, and I'm liking we've, we've, we've made it so it's easy to be dismissive versus objective and open, right, right, yeah. And I think digital culture has a part, has a plus play in that it really does, especially in our current society. So how does digital culture manifest itself within your works? I mean, I mean, you have, obviously, you know, you encounter it, you use it. We all use it. I mean, but how does it? How does it kind of for good or for worse or indifferent? How does it kind of impact how you see art and art making?

Heather Jones  43:47
I think you know, for me, being connected to artists that I've been able to meet through different residency programs I've done. You know, stay in contact with them through social media is a good thing. I try not to spend too much time on it, but it's also a great way to be able to share your your work, you know, as an artist, to audiences that really are global, right? I mean, not just in your geographical community. I mean, that is one good thing I think about. You know, social media we have, Jeff and I both have been able to build a community that is not just in Ohio, not just in the Midwest, but, you know, really globally and without social media, without these, you know, little devices, that would be impossible. I think when we were growing up, you know, we're of an age where we didn't have cell phones, and we got them in college. But you know, you wouldn't to get to know people or to stay in touch with people, it was much more difficult, right? So are some advantages about having this connection through and. These devices. But also, I mean, I think, Gosh, just seen in our kids. And I think our kids are, you know, abnormal in the fact that they're not always on their phones as much. I mean, they're on them too much. For sure, they're on them too much. But is they also know the beauty of real life things, but it's just a different generation, and I'm really glad that we didn't have them when I was, you know, our kids, because, amen, there is no, you know, stepping away from people there. You know, If one chooses to, there's no stepping away, like Jeff said of, you know, removing yourself from this constant noise, which is, you know, very important to do that. I think, you know, I

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  45:55
wouldn't have made it. I would not have made it. I don't have the discipline on

Rodney Veal  46:00
which you that's why, yeah, yeah. I mean,

Heather Jones  46:05
I'm glad that some things that I did when I was younger are not recorded, you know, for all eternity and shared for

Rodney Veal  46:12
both hands are raised. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, I wouldn't want that repeating back on a cycle. Like, Oh yeah, Jim saying that, that's a real thing, right? It is yeah. It's like, yeah. So it's like, and I always think about that in terms of, like, the connective threads that, and the like, the the usage of it to serve a greater good, versus self indulgence. And what I don't know what that is. I mean, do you know, say, like,

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  46:41
Yeah, I do. I have a love, hate relationship with it. Like Heather said, our careers have become global because they have. I, you know, we have both shown our work all over the world. Through divisible projects, I've been able to bring artists from the all over the world. Yeah, to to Front Street. It keeps us connected. We don't have to live in New York or LA or London or whatever it could be, right? There's a difference between location and locale, like we both can be New York artists, but live in Miami Valley. It's mindset there, and it's like, we can have the both, the best of both worlds, but it is completely a time suck. And I think that people are missing so much so, like, we travel to New York a lot because that is the, you know, center of the visual art world,

Rodney Veal  47:40
and all of the art worlds, actually, sorry, it is right?

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  47:45
Well, I was at the Museum of Modern Art in September, and I'm standing in the room where monies water lilies are and, you know, and it's again, this tearful, impactful. You look at the scale, and you look at the movement, and you look at the way that he was pushing pain around and and he was not painting the water lilies, but he was painting the paint and, you know, and it's like you're just investing yourself in this. And I look around, and there's seven of us in the room, and I'm the only one looking at the piece, and everybody else is sitting down looking at their phones. And I'm going, do you not know what you have? Do you not know what you're kind of well, that's fine, because now you have the whole thing to myself,

Rodney Veal  48:22
so you have to yourself exactly it was like those moments. I mean, that always blows my mind, because I always tell people all the time, like, you go to a museum if you're not in there for hours on end, you What are you doing? Don't give just a work 10 seconds. Like, no, I don't need to. I want to sit and kind of ponder some thoughts, and I try to instill that in our audience, like, Don't the other stuff will be there. This this time that you're in front of Monet's water lilies may be a fleeting moment, and you need to take advantage of it, because it's speaking like you said, paint, pushing paint. But it's also it was also transitioned to how his perspective of the world changed our perspective of art making, and in many ways, how our society moves forward. And so, yeah, I saw this. It's a question that I asked. We've started asking, especially with this new season, because it's about imposter syndrome, and I think it's one of those things that we all we can't, we can't escape it where we don't think we're we're not worthy, or we're not the ones to do and be. And I want to what would you say to maybe artists, or art makers, or folks who see the arts, who think that, you know, this world's not for me, or this is not I. I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be pursuing this, because I don't have this, the pedigree, because I don't believe in pedigree. I just, you know, great that people have it, glad that people went to school that. But the world is made up of all kinds of people. People. So what do you say to those folks who might think that they may not fit in to this art world?

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  50:11
You Well, I was gonna say rather you finally like, shut me up. No, we don't shut people. I talk. I talk a lot, and I'm not afraid to, you know, I love it. That's a thing.

Rodney Veal  50:28
It's like, it's

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  50:30
awesome, yeah, but it, but it is for everyone. You know, we start this life through creative practices, the creative journeys. We're always making things. We're always putting on skits our you know, we have two amazing, creatively brilliant children. And of course, we could, every parent would say that, but I think our kids are special, like we've been we've been blessed to have dinner theater every single night for 19 years, just about it every single night.

Heather Jones  51:06
It's, I feel like it's not as frequent now that they're teenagers, but when they were younger, it was every night for sure,

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  51:11
you know. And so it's like we've always seen these creative things in our children, and it what do you tell? People it is for you? I mean, let's like, you have to give them the opportunity to do that. And I, I teach, like, I'm a I teach painting and like the goal is, everybody goes, oh, I want to teach the upper level students and the people that are really serious about this kind of stuff and and very rarely do I have people say, Oh no, I want to teach the first year students, huh, but, but I, I have this amazing opportunity to teach non majors painting. And 99% of the folks come in there, and I asked them the first day of class, well, why are you in this class? Well, one, we're required by the university to take an arts class, blah, blah, blah. Two, I've heard this is a super easy class. And then three, I asked them, I said, who's in here? Just to goof off? And some of them raised their hand, yeah, I'm just here to go. And I go, that's cool, because my class is really about that break from the rest of the world. There's a lot of engineers, there's a lot of computer science, there's a lot of nurses in there. And it's like, it's that moment where we turn the lights down low, we put the music on, we push this paint around, whatever. And through that process, they start to see that it is for them, you know, I had it. I had a kid come up to me on Tuesday, and he said, I'm really proud of myself. I didn't think I could do this, you know, and that's, that's what it's all about. And so it is for everyone. You just have to give them the space and the and the mentorship and the patience and the opportunity to do that. And so, you know, it's almost like, like that movie, Ratatouille, where it says anyone can cook, right? It's like anyone can do this. You just have to give them the support and the space and the freedom to do it and in a safe, caring environment,

Heather Jones  53:25
but I will say I think imposter syndrome is real. You know, as I mentioned earlier, like, you know, I don't have an MFA, so at the beginning, when I really, you know, sort of made a shift. I mean, we haven't really talked about this, but, you know, for a long time I was making quilts. I wrote a book on quilt making that came making, it came out, yes, and then I made this shift because I wanted to go back to fine art, you know, which is something that I had always loved and always did as well. But there was some self doubt and questioning, because, you know, I didn't go to school for that. Yes, I studied art, but it was art history. I took studio classes, but it wasn't, you know, enough to get a BFA or an MFA. I always was self taught as well in terms of making things from, you know, quilt making and beyond. So, but there was a shift that I wanted to do things, but I didn't know that I was good enough to do it. You know, I didn't know if I, you know, there was doubt. There, you know, a lot of doubt. And so again, you know, having Jeff as a partner and a mentor, you know, he was encouraging. And then, you know, I remember I had applied for this residency in Dakar Senegal, and you know, he is my biggest cheerleader. And it was the deadline, because I always kind of wait to the last minute.

Rodney Veal  54:43
You know, I think that on that one, yeah,

Heather Jones  54:46
midnight of that night, and it was about eight o'clock and I hadn't finished my application, and, you know, I said, Should I, should I do this? And he was like, you know, I think I just go to bed. If I were you, I just go to bed. Hold her. No, I. My biggest, really, my biggest supporter. But he was also real. And I was like, Well, I'm gonna do it. You know, that was, that was that lit the fire. So I, you know, applied, never fathoming that I would get in. Lo and behold, I got in. So, you know, if you and my point of this story is, if you don't put yourself out there, if you don't try, you'll never get in. If you don't put yourself out there if you don't, even if you have that down your mind, if you don't do it, you will never know, but if you you will have a chance. And you know, being in that program, it was, I was at Black Rock Senegal, which is a residency program founded by candy Wiley, who is, I would say, arguably the most famous painter living today. He is up there. Oh, yeah. So I was able to spend a month there in 2019, the pre the pre pandemic, but I was part of the inaugural class. And so here I am. You know, born in Dayton, Ohio, grew up in Cincinnati, this, you know, 40 something woman and I spent a month in Dakar, which is never anything that I had on my bingo card. I never knew that that would be a possibility. And but I tried something, I, you know, I was uncomfortable. I put something, you know, out there in the world, and lo and behold, it resonated with both Kehinde and the other members on the jury for that residency program. So and that was a, you know, something, an experience that had a profound effect on me personally, as well as on my practice. And it was really the first time that I was able to see my work sort of on this global stage. So not having a BFA, not having an MFA from a prestigious school, yet I was, you know, included in this conversation that I didn't even know that I could be a part of. So, you know. And the reason I tell you that story is, and, you know, listeners tell, you know, tell. Sharing the story with your listeners is you just got to do it. You just, even if you're scared, even if you feel like you're, you know, faking it until you make it, you just do it. And you all, you don't know what the outcome is going to be, absolutely

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  57:19
and you also have to follow your heart and your gut, because I'll be honest, I told her, No, yeah, I told her, don't, don't do it. She and, you know, because I was trying to be real and protect her, wow, right? Because I didn't want her to put all this work in, get her hopes up and then get them dashed by not getting in. And so I was honestly trying to protect her, and she she did it anyway. She was resilient. Did it and look at what happened. And so from that moment on, I said, okay, never again. I learned a massive lesson. It's like, I'll never stand in the way of you doing anything and everything you need to do in order for you to be amazing?

Heather Jones  58:06
Well, thank you. I mean, you know, he wasn't in the way, but it was, it was also realistic, you know. And you know, you can do art, but you don't need to major in art. I mean, that's it was a place of love, right? Like it was her wanting me to have a life where I wasn't a starving artist, or, you know, that whole, the whole trope, but so, yeah, it's a, it was not out of, you know, trying to hold me back, but it was also just, you know, realism is also good in this.

Rodney Veal  58:36
This is so true, but that's, but, you know what I love about this is the fact, like, it's, it's, it is this. This is why I describe you guys as the dynamic duo of the arts in Dayton, Ohio, for this reason, because that's what I think it goes into understanding what what this life and the art is, and you and the two of you embody it so beautifully, individually and together, and so I live that's my fanboy moment. Sorry, you know, if it's embarrassing, but just, I just feel strongly about that, and you, the both of you are doing beyond the work. And I love the fact that you have your Jeff. You said it. You could be of the New York art scene and not be in New York. So you can, you could be have a global impact, but be in Dayton, Ohio. Yeah, you can affect the world by just saying, Yes, I'm going to do this, and you two embody it.

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  59:40
That's right. And I do just want to say that it really is the mindset. It's like you there's the old thing. You can accomplish anything you want if you put your mind to it. And let me tell you just a really quick story, and then I'll be quiet. So again, I was a musical theater major, and that was my life. And so when I switched to painting, I knew that I'd made the right decision, but there was still there was a hole in my heart, because I loved musical theater. And so when I was in undergraduate school, Jesus Christ Superstar came through town, and I went and saw everything that I possibly could. And this was one of the anniversaries of the movie, and Ted Neely was playing Jesus. He's one of my absolute idols, and I worshiped, watching that movie all the time. So I had this weird encounter where I was able to meet him and and he gave me backstage passes, all the stuff. So I met him after the show one day, and he said, Well, what do you want to be when you are done? And I said, a starving artist, right? Because I was going to be a starving artist. And he was so offended by that. And he said, I want you to think about it differently, and I want you to take the V out of it, out of starving and I sat there for a minute, go sweat. And he said, starring, you have to be a starring artist, and it's all about mindset. And so the next day, he visited my studio, and he bought the very first piece I ever sold, because he wanted to show me that it is mindset. And if as long as I was going to be a starving artist, I was going to be a starving artist. But when I go to starve and shifted things, he just said, then I'm going to buy something from you. And now you're a professional. Now you're on your way. And so the first piece of art I ever sold was that Ted Neely, from there you go. But it put me on that, put me on that passing, you know, like you do

Rodney Veal  1:01:43
this, yeah, change the mindset. I mean, absolutely, yeah.

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  1:01:47
I had somebody who believed in me, even if it was, you know, through a 30 minute conversation. He believed in me or he believed in the idea of art, enough to take somebody who was young and unsure, and say, you got this kid go, go for it.

Rodney Veal  1:02:07
There you go. That's, yeah, that is the perfect story to end on. That is, it's a perfect story, because you guys are awesome. There's no other words

Heather Jones  1:02:17
you do for the arts here in the community too. I mean, you are a superstar.

Rodney Veal  1:02:21
Oh, that's very kind. Thank you. I it's just the life of I believe in service. I grew up that way, you know? Well, my parents,

Jeffrey Cortland Jones  1:02:31
that's why I'm a teacher. That's why I'm a teacher. You know, I tell my son that Jones men were put on this earth to give and to serve, and

Rodney Veal  1:02:39
that's what, and that is why we're in our mutual admiration society. There we go.