Erin Smith Glenn, MFA Artist & Professor

Painter and educator Erin Smith Glenn joins Rodney Veal to talk about a life shaped by art, Black womanhood, and radical self-acceptance.

From drawing owls on a chalkboard after her parents’ divorce to earning her first scholarship at just eight years old, Erin shares how art became both a survival tool and a path to joy.

Learn more about Erin online: www.etsy.com/shop/TheScarvinArtist

Follow Erin on Instagram: @thescarvinartist

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Rodney Veal, Promo, Erin Smith Glenn, Ad

Rodney Veal  00:19

Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to Rodney villes, inspired by I'm its host. Rodney veal, and I have the good fortune of interviewing someone today that if you can see in the video, those who don't know the video, I have this artist artwork hanging in my office. Yes, I do. I like so I, I come from a genuine fan boy. Erin Smith Glenn is a painter, artist, a mover, a person who really does believe in the connective threads to community, helping others, helping herself, self care. There's a so there's a level of depth of knowledge of the art form itself, plus the joy of living that I just embrace every time we get a chance to get together and talk, it's always a pleasure, and it's a joy. So without further ado, folks, I'm going to introduce you to Erin Smith Glenn, welcome Erin. 

Erin Smith Glenn  01:15

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. 

Rodney Veal  01:28

three of your works. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think three. I own three. So you have jumped, leap forward above Amy deal, and you see yourself and you who you are now, who, who? What was going on in the early days? What did you think you were going to be when you were young? 

Erin Smith Glenn  02:36

I have never seen myself being anything but an artist really, from the first time that the concept of the future entered my mind, art was always a part of it, and there's a reason for that. I didn't know this back then, but Art has always been a way of survival for me, a coping mechanism for me, which is so strange that it only you know, in the past four years, became an intentional mode of, you know, coping with mental health, right? Because, but then again, you know, when mental health wasn't always something that people wanted to talk about, and you know, I didn't realize it was my very, very much a survival mode for me. My parents were divorced when I was young, and I don't know what prompted me to pick up chalk and go to my little kitty chalkboard and decide to draw stuff we had other toys I never was interested in dolls. You know, we had games, me and my brother. I'm only a year older than my brother, so we had those things, but we've always had different interests. Like he wasn't, he wasn't interested in me and creative. He's always liked video games and sports. And that's, yeah, I like games. I don't like video games. I don't know shade against anyone

Rodney Veal  04:01

who does no shame, no shame, no shade throw.

Erin Smith Glenn  04:04

But I mean, I like, I like Scrabble, that's my favorite game. And I like, I like Monopoly, but it seems everybody else I know hates it, like That's so unfair, you know. And I like battleship, I don't know, you know, in some other childhood games, like trouble, sorry, and those kind of games, but that can only keep my attention for so long, whereas, you know, picking up the chalk drawing it on the board. Maybe it's because, you know, when you're a really young kid, and this is why they need to really stop cutting arts programs, but when you're a young kid, they use art and music as forms of education. You know, they're like primary forms of education, right? But I think I don't know, one day I kind of like took that primary level of art education home with me to my chalkboard. And this was after my parents divorced. I was five with my parents divorce, right? And my dad's. All my drawing, and was impressed with it, which meant a lot to me, because, you know, little kids are always wanting to impress their parents. Absolutely, absolutely, I didn't really know that what I was doing was impressive. And I don't even know if I remember saying, Dad Look, or if he probably noticed it was quiet, and he was just like, What are they doing? And then he came in to see me drawn, and was like, oh, oh, oh, oh. And so I was about maybe six that time when I first remember drawing an owl on a chalkboard in our two bedroom apartment that we lived in in Columbus on Galt Street, like I remember, like yesterday, right? Wow. It was a very humble apartment, you know. But I think creativity lives in the most in places where you don't have a whole lot to work with, you know, and so maybe a couple years later, and I don't know, I never asked my dad. I don't know why, how he found out about Columbus College of Art and designs, little Junior kid Saturday program, really?

Rodney Veal  06:01

Oh, my god, yeah, I was, is there a thing that parents do? Like, they just, they kind of know, they just kind of go dig,

Erin Smith Glenn  06:09

just, kind of, know, I don't know if maybe he talked to some friends, was like, Yeah, my daughter's really creative. And then maybe they were like, oh, you know, there's this program, and you can, like, look into scholarships and whatnot. So that's what happened. I remember it like yesterday, walking into a dim lit room where there was a still life. Everybody was quiet, everybody was focused on the still life. And the still life was this plaid blanket, mostly white, had some red and blue kind of patterns going through it, with fruit sitting on it, in the spotlight on it, you know. And they provided the supplies, and I think we had pencils. And I think, well, you know, children don't really compute time as well as adults, but what felt like an hour, and I don't even really remember looking to see what everyone else was doing. I just remember coming in, and they were like, there's the stuff, here's the supplies. Go ahead and draw yada yada yada, right? I don't even know where that drawing is. Like, I would love to reach out maybe to Cat Sheridan, because I'm pretty certain that cat Sheridan may have, at one time, been in that same program. They need to just do a whole alumni thing from the CCA Saturday classes that actually grew up and became creatives. You know, I don't know if that's the thing, but it should be well.

Rodney Veal  07:33

I mean, just think it's well, well, the thing is that the fact that it stuck with you and resonated because that means a lot of times it's, it's the things that we have memories of, especially as art makers. And in these conversations that I've had with other artists, they do all, we all do. You know, I'm counting myself as one of those artists in that group, I remember the first thing I ever drew. I remember when, Oh, absolutely. It was a bird of paradise. It was in kindergarten. It was, I drew it, and it was they put it up on the wall. And I remember my teacher telling my mother, like, you know, he's got a skill here that's so vastly superior to other kids and and the sense that it was very drawn from memory. And I remember asking me, asking me, what, where did I encounter a bird or paradise. And I smart, my smart way, I said it wasn't an encyclopedia. And I'm in kindergarten. I'm like, Who what kindergarten isn't. It could be like, get a grip, lady, Encyclopedia Britannica. But I just remember, like, we all have those memories, and I think it's those, and I think it's like that, spark, and it just starts is, and I describe it as it's I describe it as like somebody turning a tumblers on a creative DNA, and you turn the tumblers, and everything fell into place. It was like, Oh, this makes sense. Because it makes sense to us when we're doing it. It makes no sense to no one else. Sometimes, kind of like, it makes it makes it seems like it just made sense to you.

Erin Smith Glenn  09:04

It did. And, you know, I think the validation and the confirmation, you know, they're really so smart for having this program, but the confirmation came when my dad got the letter in the mail and you either got accepted or you didn't get accepted, or maybe you got accepted and got a partial scholarship, but I was accepted into the program with a full scholarship to attend because we couldn't afford that, you know, so, and that was, that was technically, like, my first scholarship. It wasn't a college scholarship, but it was a scholarship for the Saturday morning art classes. And I think I was eight. Wow, yeah. I was like, there is nothing else I care about in life.

Rodney Veal  09:48

Is like, do it all the time. And so because it just was, like, you said, it says art all the time. So at eight years old, you're like, okay, all this doesn't matter to me.

Erin Smith Glenn  10:00

And, you know, like I said, my parents split. So, um, you know, I lived with me and my brother lived with our dad for a while, then we finally ended up living with our mom. When, you know, everything was just like, So, where do you guys want to live, mom? So that's a whole nother ran for a whole nother day, ladies and gentlemen. I mean, it's a true story. But what I would say is, and what I always say is, you know, me and my parents may not always agree on everything. They surely didn't agree on everything, but one thing they always did agree on was supporting things where our interests lie, you know, supporting us in that way. So, you know, they just couldn't do it together, you know, they knew, they knew pretty much how to support it's just not together, you know. And that's okay, because, you know, some of the things they definitely have in common is, well, spirituality, faith, you know. And then history, especially black history, and then art. They both have, you know, respect for the art. My mom is very much creative on a different level. You know, my dad, my dad's military, most of my family's military. I'm like, There's no way I'm going to the military. I'm either going to like, cry and they send me home, or I'm going to like, cuss out the officer and then they send me home. Like, either way, I'm getting sent home. There's no way

Rodney Veal  11:19

this is not for you. It's like the military definitely was not. Like, I get it. I totally get it, and understand that.

Erin Smith Glenn  11:27

So, no, no, I would say that they finally realized, like, she doesn't play with any of these dolls we buy her. Like, what a waste. I remember giving them all away once at once when, like, maybe a cousin came over, or friend, and I was like, Oh, you like the dogs, you can have them, okay,

Rodney Veal  11:49

and then get this out of here. Yeah, I need paints. I need paper. I need drawing.

Erin Smith Glenn  11:53

That's what happened. That's what happened. They started realizing, like, Oh, she just likes the arts. Like, I have always been a person of the humanities. So at one time I had a typewriter. You know, true story. Hey, actually, how young were you when you had a typewriter? Like, 11, okay, like, for real, I was jamming on that typewriter, making beats on the typewriter, everything. And, you know, it's, it's funny that, you know, I had a TV, but it just was not that fascinating. All I cared about was art, music and literature and history. You know, we one thing me and my brother each had in our room was, you know, a history, a black history poster with like 20 different like mine was like 20 black women in history. My brothers was like 20 black men in history. And you know, I would be at my desk. Sometimes, when I would get bored or sidetracked, I would just look up at that poster, you know. And so, you know, it that that kind of maybe built my fascination with with history. And you know, when the dolls stopped coming in. Thank God, as gifts towards me. Thank God, no more dolls. Thank God, man, them things. Was collecting mad dust bunnies, okay, but you know those little kits that you could still find at Michael's where you opening, it's got, like everything, like the water colors a little black, they're usually

Rodney Veal  13:19

black, right? I know those cases. Yeah, this is, it's like, the, it's like the, it's like the beginner kit of this is art, everything's all you need.

Erin Smith Glenn  13:29

You don't. And you know what I love about it? It didn't come with instructions. And I just peeped that it didn't come with instructions. Just let them have the stuff and let them figure it out on their own. So that was really smart. Like, I don't know how long they've been making those little kits, but, you know, I remember using those things to death, and I would just keep getting them. You know, that's where I started. Like, with portraiture, I would be in the basement, and we would have family photo albums, like I told you my, you know, my parents were divorced. So, you know, when I would miss certain family members, I would look through the albums, and then I started, like, pulling out the pictures and being like, you know, just draw this face here, a little bit there. And then sometimes I would be like, I'm gonna throw a snow scene in there. Like, even though it was like summertime in the photo, you know, um, and so one day my first year of middle school, I'm not really certain what prompted me to because I don't come from a family of artists. No one ever told me to do this, but before I ever knew what an entrepreneur was, I became one when I was 11, I walked into the middle school one day just super nervous and confident at the same time with like, three drawings I had done from that little kit that I had for Christmas and I showed my teachers, like one by one, like, these are my drawings. They're for sale. They're $3 each.

Rodney Veal  14:51

So there are people probably out there with original Karen

Erin Smith Glenn  14:55

Smith, Glenn, somebody better have it. I'm be so offended right now. There's. Not much of my childhood art around. My uncle has the oldest piece that I know of, and that was when we went to visit him in Chicago when I was nine. And I don't know why he had a little easel and chalks and stuff there, but he did. I mean, obviously I have cousins. They were older than me, but I ain't never seen nobody actually using it. And I remember a couple years ago, I was talking to him. He lives in Arizona now. He was like, Do you remember that little drawing you did? I was like, Oh my God, of the horse. Yeah, you still have it. He was like, I still have it. I was like, You are so smart. You are so smart, sir, so cool, hard. It's probably worth more than anything I've ever done.

Rodney Veal  15:43

No, I Well, it's up there. Let's just say it's just, it's the start, in the beginning. I mean, but, but is that? But I think it's really, just really fascinating me. It's like, it's like, when you talk about this, Aaron, because, you know, I've had ton of just over 50 of these. Everybody has this kind of, almost not identical, but this, this origin story that really is about people just accepting who they were and what they were in the context of creativity. And so then, so then this, it may I, you know, many ways it makes it makes art. It makes most art makers childhoods a little bit more interesting when you're just like, What did you do? I went to the Dai and I took classes, and then I hung out, and I'm like, you know, you know, that was my first like, outside of the school system, and my first teacher there was Bing Davis. It was Bing Papa, Bing. So, you know, you just, you just think about those kind of contexts and like so you knew, like, you're like, I'm in and everybody else figured it out. Stop the dolls. These kids aren't kids. So talk to me about like that, that transition of, you know, public school to college. Because, I mean, were you a first generation college student?

Erin Smith Glenn  16:59

Yes, for my immediate family, yes, um, I did. I do have some cousins that you know went to college, but in terms of my immediate family, yes, I was the first, yeah, my mom ended up getting hers, so she is much later, and I'm pretty sure my dad has his degree by now.

Rodney Veal  17:16

Yeah, okay, so, so what was that? What was that transition like, I mean, because it's different, it's, you know, and I, I say that because I felt like it was a different I was introduced to a different aspect of the art making world than I was used to, okay, just kind of curious

Erin Smith Glenn  17:37

the transition from childhood to college. Yeah, yeah, I'm kind of curious. I couldn't wait to get the hell out, Man, am I allowed to say that?

Rodney Veal  17:45

Well, he'll probably blip it out, but that's okay. I couldn't

Erin Smith Glenn  17:51

wait to get away from home. I've always been just very independent. You know? I never needed like I had friends, but I was not that kid on the phone all the time, and I think that's why my mom felt comfortable with putting a phone in my room. Because, I mean, I never really was on it, you know, I think I started using it eventually, like, well, you know, it's here, so let me just, like, call my best friend, at least

Rodney Veal  18:21

I get So, I mean, well, I'm kind of curious out of that way to get out. Yeah, well, I mean, I because I was the same way, I know, because I've

Erin Smith Glenn  18:30

always felt so different from everybody else in my family. You know, I see black sheep now as a celebration of who I am. You know, I think there needs to be, like a black sheep exhibit series, something I don't know, but you know, what used to be seen as such a negative thing is now, I think seen more positively these days, like I love being the black sheep, because I think being a black sheep doesn't always have to have a negative connotation to it anymore. I think in more modern times, black sheep just means you're different. It doesn't necessarily. I think back in the past, black sheep meant like you were that family member that was always doing wrong. And that's not how I see it. I see black sheep. This is the one. This is the unique one you know, from everyone else, and not that everyone else is bad. It's just I never could quite connect to whatever was called normal. You know, I always wore my hair in ways that weren't really acceptable during the time, you know, back in the 90s and even early 2000s pressing and straightening and all of that was still that was like, the majority of what you saw in the black community, whereas I was like, I'm wearing an afro. I'm wearing bantu knots. You know, I love braids, and if my hair was ever straightened, it wasn't really by my choice. By the time I hit my senior year of high school, I started quietly transitioning to the afro. So I would. I would get my friend and I would pay her, because I had a job, I didn't to do braids. So I was gradually growing my hair out so that once, you know, it got long enough where you couldn't notice, then, you know, started chopping off those straight ends. And then towards the end of my senior year, like, maybe a month before, I come into class one day, and they're like, Oh, that's not a wig, because I did used to wear, like, Afro wig sometimes, because, since I was a dancer, we had to conform our hair, you know. And I'm like, I'll do it, you know, I'll do it. But when y'all ain't looking I'm gonna be wearing this Afro wig, you know. So like, when it came to hair and musical choices and style choices. I Never No one like, I think people used to make fun after a while, they were just like, there's no point. She's not going to stop, you know, so that was in both high school and college. Like, sometimes I would be, you know, the butt of the jokes, but, you know, because of my uniqueness. But then I think people saw my confidence in my uniqueness and that they couldn't really force me to change, you know, and that well, and I've always been kind of like, I didn't really know I was funny. I knew that I liked funny stuff, but I didn't know that I was funny. So, you know, I was unique, but I could surprise you and make you laugh. So I think people was just like, let's just leave her alone to her alone. Do her thing. Like she's unique. Let's, let's embrace it. Let's, you know, but no, it was, it was rough being like, so different, and, you know, going to so many different schools that I just wanted to leave. Like, I didn't even really plan on staying in Ohio my whole life. I was trying to leave. But, um, you know, like, even going to college, I'm like, so nerdy, like, Oh my God, when I go to college, everybody's just gonna be so mature. We're gonna be so smart, and we're gonna be doing our work. And I got there and I was like, these are grown middle schoolers. Ah, what planet Am I on?

Rodney Veal  21:54

Oh, my God, grown middle schoolers. I gotta remember that one. It's different. It's like, because, I think it's because you were so focused on process and on focus on Discovery, yeah, like that without knowing and that's the thing, is, without knowing it. But now, like, you know, you step back. Now we're here thinking about it. It's like, you know, that's what really was the driver, Aaron, it was, it was the fact that when you have a focus on process and discovery, that does set you apart for everyone else, because they they're not, they're they're kind of stuck somewhere thinking, not about the evolution of self within the creative process. Because you and I talk, we Aaron, we've had these you and I have conversations all the time. This is like, I'm like, we're just recording this one. So it's like, yeah, okay, but then

Erin Smith Glenn  22:48

talk and talk and talk and talk, but

Rodney Veal  22:52

that, but that, but that process of discovery is really interesting to me, because how did it was definitely odd, because you're describing your the peers. But how were professors in response to because that does set you apart in a room as an art maker that somebody's driven by process and discovery. I you know, what was it like

Erin Smith Glenn  23:15

when I first got to Central State University, you know? Um, it was very intriguing, in a way. It was intriguing, but then I was like, all these cornfields, good God Almighty, but the band was there. So, you know, eventually I became a part of the band. I joined the band sorority. But before that all happened, okay, how did you join? Okay, okay, I wasn't I was a bell. I was a marching Bell. Look at you, look at you. Three years and so I joined the band sorority, tau, beta, sigma. But before that, because that came, like, more than a year after I was at Central State, before that, I'm just like, well, I hear they have an art program, so I guess I'll just give it a try. And when I tell you that art program became my sanctuary, my safe space. I get there and I'm like, lo and behold, are these seasoned, gigantic, you know, artists. They were all, they were all pretty seasoned, and, you know, really doing their thing and already known, and really kind of quiet about it, though, but you know, that was like my first experience in being taught actual methods and art, like, even though we were in the CCA D program, I don't really remember a lot of instruction. I remember getting some supplies and kind of them saying, like, well, this is what you can do, or you can do your own thing. And then we did our own thing in high school. That was my first, like, black art teacher and a woman, and you know, she would show us some things or whatever, but she mostly left us up to our own devices to see what we were capable of. But I also. Found out while I was in high school that she was actually a really good artist. So that was really cool. Like, watching her work sometimes off in the side while we were working, you know, and then watching her erase stuff, and then being like, oh my god, why'd you do that? Why'd you racing? She was like, it's fine. I do this all the time. And I'm like, and I'm like, dumbfounded, like, you, you erased it. Why would you do that? And she's like, it's fine. Like, it's, I'm gonna just do it again. I'm like, But you erase that. And so now, like, that's something that, you know. I tell students, like, be prepared to make adjustments. Like, it's not about if I'm going to know you are going to. So you just need to, like, lean into the fact that mistakes are a part of how you learn how to do the right thing. Please content with making mistakes, because they're gonna happen, and if you're trying to avoid it, it's like going skating, expecting to be good at it, but being afraid to fall. You cannot expect to get good at skating. And just it's really smart to just go in there, just fall down. Just just fall down as soon as you get there, just fall down. Get the fear out the way.

Rodney Veal  26:07

Not just do it, just get it. And I think that's that philos, this philosophy makes the most sense, because that's where that's, that's, I think that's the reason why we click so well together. We have these great conversations, because it is, because it's like, what are you free? What's the worst that can happen? Calm down. Like, it's like,

Erin Smith Glenn  26:27

I mean, there are some things that could happen. But I, in all my years of going skating, I still have never seen anyone get taken out on a stretcher.

Rodney Veal  26:36

And I can honestly say I've only seen people. I'm not gonna win. I've only seen somebody taken away in an ambulance in a dance rehearsal just because it was an accident. It's because dance is physical. I mean, yeah, dance

Erin Smith Glenn  26:50

seems more dangerous than skating to me, yeah.

Rodney Veal  26:54

But I've never seen somebody in an art setting get taken out unless you have,

Erin Smith Glenn  27:04

oh, God, I can't believe how sick my sense of humor is thinking, like, how hilarious that would be.

Rodney Veal  27:09

Like, oh, I erased the mark on the page, and I passed out. I mean, so no, I just not gonna happen here. You know that's gonna happen. And so I think about, like that, sort of, like, you go into school and you're thinking, Wait a minute, these are some girl middle schoolers. I mean, that's why I asked the question, because I feel like you probably connected more with professors than you probably did with I did, you know, with your peers? I mean, yeah,

Erin Smith Glenn  27:36

there was some peers. Like, it was like a collective of us, an unofficial collective of us that was like the cool weirdos, right? Like, you can make fun of us all you want, but there's absolutely no way we're changing because we've been here. We've been down this road before. This is not new for us. You know, it's crazy, because nowadays, you know, you see hair like this all over campus, like you would be hard pressed to find somebody really, what's great hair, right? See, but back then,

Rodney Veal  28:11

wow, no. It's like a spikey Lee movie come to life.

Erin Smith Glenn  28:19

It is school days come to life is

Rodney Veal  28:20

school days come to life. And so, but and so it's and so, and that's why I asked this question, because I feel like that's this sort of your life story in your history, and what you see, what you observe, your process and your sense of discovery Curiosity has led to these bodies of work that just, like, just draw us in, like they really, you have work that, like, pulls the viewer in. Wow. And, well, I mean, come on, I collect your work like, I know, but sometimes, thank you. Well, the thing is, and I think that that's the reason why, you know, I just, we have this podcast. It's like, think about someone else who might be out there who may not think of themselves being worthy of that process and that sense of discovery, like talk. Talk about, what would you

Erin Smith Glenn  29:18

tell them? Oh, man, be true to yourself. That's usually what I say. That's like my number one piece of advice is, are you being true to yourself? Are you living in this one life that we have in fear of what might happen? Should you fail? You know, I guess for me, I look at people and I want to know the story behind the success. I don't really care about what's on the surface. I want to know how you get there. And then when you hear their stories of failure, but they ended up being successful. And then, then, you know, you hear them saying, like, failure was the best thing that ever happened to me. You know, you should like, fail real big, right? So you never, ever want to fail. That big again, you know, I've seen people be successful, fail big and bad, and then come back stronger. I feel like that's my own story. Honestly, you know, I've, like, had momentums, and then, you know, you're going up the roller coaster, you doing good? And then pow. And then it's like, okay, I made it down, but it's fine. I'm coming around the bend again, you know. And it's those plummets, you know, deep down where I found myself, where I found real true, for lack of better words, depth and purpose and meaning. And I guess, I guess, when you've always been kind of looked at as different anyway. You just kind of don't really see a need to hide anymore. Like everybody can see, like, clearly I am not, like all the rest of these people here, yeah.

Rodney Veal  30:53

Well, yeah. Well, what you're an original, I mean, with the best originality.

Erin Smith Glenn  30:58

Thank you. You know, I just can't see it any other way. Um, it just doesn't make sense. My brain doesn't work typically

Rodney Veal  31:08

that way. It doesn't work that way. I mean, and I think that's, you know, because I think I feel people deal with, you know, in the conversations I've had with others and, you know, and I have conversations that are not a taped, recorded, that sense and feeling that they're an imposter

Erin Smith Glenn  31:23

see, oh, I've had that. I've had that imposter syndrome. As a black, think Black Women often feel imposter syndrome like I've even heard people that I admire very greatly talk about how they've had to secretly wrestle with imposter syndrome? Yeah, I don't feel it so much now, but maybe just, you know, a few years ago, you know, maybe, like, maybe like, before the pandemic, like, just before then, you know, before I decided to take the leap into single motherhood, you know, um, the imposter syndrome was real. Like, am I worthy of this? Am I even the best fit for this? Am I making a difference? You know, how long am I going to have to, you know, realize before I know I'm making a difference, like just over evaluating myself, not realizing that, you know, nobody's, I mean, realizing no one's perfect, but still holding myself up to a ridiculous standard, you know, um, so I, you know, I've had to learn to forgive myself over and over again. It's, I didn't know that self forgiveness would be such a hard like that is so hard, is so hard. Yeah, yeah. I think self forgive, self forgiveness,

Rodney Veal  32:37

which is extending a sense of grace to oneself,

Erin Smith Glenn  32:41

to myself. You know, you know,

Rodney Veal  32:43

like, there's a moment where people, I think a lot of times in our culture and society, we see that as selfish. And I'm like, Oh, come on. Now I can. I have to extend grace to others, but I can't extend it to myself. Yeah, it makes no sense. And so I'm glad you talked about that, because we've all it's really interesting, because I think the fear failure in the imposter syndrome are just, are symptoms of of of a society that is just the upside down world. Yeah, you know of it just this. It's by all, by all accounts, your uniqueness should not be, for lack of a better term, a weapon, weaponized against what to against you. But sometimes you know, and then that's every artist. Because when you're doing things at such an exceptionally high level, I think it's, it's, it's, it's so hard to kind of divorce yourself from the reality that these people don't know what the heck they are talking about.

Erin Smith Glenn  33:53

They don't. And I tell my students that I was like, You guys have to remember to draw as if you know more than the audience, because you do like stop drawing and painting and creating according to what you think someone else might think when they look at it. You know that is you're supposed to consider yourself to be the expert, even while you're learning. Still, you know, right? But, but going back to the imposter syndrome thing, I think the reason why it is very prevalent, especially with well creatives, but definitely black women, is because, you know, um, statistically, we're the highest educated group of people in the country, possibly the world, but definitely this country, yet we still are the least compensated. So other people's perception of us at times, does affect our own perception of us,

Rodney Veal  34:57

because you start but it gives. Cause to a creeping doubt that you know that phrase, well, maybe, maybe they're right, maybe, maybe

Erin Smith Glenn  35:05

they're right, maybe. But then, you know, you got to have your tight knit, small, but tight knit group of people that's like, you know, hyping you up. We hype each other.

Rodney Veal  35:17

I tell you that the small, tight knit group of people are like minded folks, because it's like a tribe. They're your tribe.

Erin Smith Glenn  35:25

Oh my gosh. When one is down, we're building them up, and then when this person's down, it's time to build them up. It is absolutely reciprocity is a thing that people need to just lean into, like it's giving, giving, giving. It's not going to help you. And then taking, taking. Taking is not it needs to be a balance, give and take.

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Promo  36:26

you're enjoying this conversation, the art show, also hosted by Rodney veal, is available to stream anytime from anywhere on YouTube or the PBS app. And the

Rodney Veal  36:35

thing is, I love the effect you talk about that because your subject matter is rooted in the in the black American experience, yes, and a black woman's American experience. And I think that's a uniqueness of distinction of and I tell you when I tell you when we when we worked with Derek Smith, who did the the segment for the art show, love, love, loved. I just loved how I introduced the two of you, and it was just like, Oh, you guys are off to the races. Like, it was like, oh, chums. It was like, no big. It was like, oh and but it was, but I, what I found really fascinating was it just painted you in this very, very well. The as the priestess of black womanhood in my eyes, you know, just saying the priestess of black womanhood. But the thing is, it was, it was, but what I was, what you drew my eye to, was seeing portraiture and imagery that was rooted in love, yeah. And it was like, you know, and I see it, and I sense it, and I can feel it. I can sense the vitality coming from the canvases and the prints and I, and I sense it in the the attention and care to knit and crafting and plants and nature, that these things are starting to they all start to intertwine. And I love that. For you, as me, as a somebody back I was so, so sorry the day, I was like, I was geeking out on, on Kate Santucci, she just, she went, and she's doing these, like the colors and how she's shaping things, and she's gone for a scale. You know, she's just like she's just not caring. Oh, and somebody decided to call me better you than me. Oh, that's too funny, but that's the funny part. It was, Derek, you should know better. You should know better. I should know better. I should know better to turn my phone off. So what sushi?

Erin Smith Glenn  38:46

I have two little Kate santus She pieces in my bathroom from the pandemic. When we were exchanging, we were both members of the DSA exchanging, doing a gift. Oh, really. Two little Kate santus Shea. They're like, this big a piece, and they're there, they're next to a plant, like there's a plant in the between them.

Rodney Veal  39:04

Yeah. And I love the fact that there was this kind of unifying thread with not just black womanhood, but womanhood in general. Yep. And I think the thing is, that's what got me hooked on. Your subject matter is so rooted in this sort of, it's not, it's not totally autobiographical, but there's enough of the autobiography or biographical that speaks to a universal of love and Like mother, like the portraits of your children and your mom and your like and black. It just, I was like, oh, there is such an attention to this. The everything in there is rooted in love, yeah, fierce as hell, technique, the technical skills, but love and it just manifests itself. And so love is fierce, is it not? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it has to be the root of you got to look. You got to kind of look. You got to kind of love imagery and kind of love what you are working through in other for to work. You can't, it can't be from anger. Can be from Rage, although those are great subject matter, sometimes those are

Erin Smith Glenn  40:13

powerful, some pieces from that direction. But I can't stay there long.

Rodney Veal  40:17

You can't stay there long. You just can't you have to go and I sense that that's where you need to be. And so I, what I love is that you know you, I know that you're friends, like, like, you're the Friends of the Friends of an art, like, all the art that's like, oh, Aaron, it's French. It's based in friendship. So I'm just kind of letting you know it's like, you, you you because you're, you're you're willingness and your openness and your honesty about how you've gotten to this place. And you're like, you don't shy away from mental health struggles. You don't, you don't, you don't shy away from the fact that there are challenges in life. But I love how you talked about and there's a plummet. I'm like, we all have had them we should be talking freely about. And then you climb out of it, and eventually tomorrow's another day is like, but you because you still are in possession of the unique essence of you. And I love the fact that I saw you a few weeks ago when they opened up the exhibit at the Dayton Art Institute, yeah, I just, I just was so proud of the fact that you were part of that you were part of the so so that people don't know, because there are a lot of people who probably don't know this, but this, yeah, and I'll probably screw this up as a man, and I refuse to do that. So I am like, No, I'm not going to describe this. Give me grace. Is a collection of art collected by a couple of women, women who are in a partnership and a loving partnership, and based upon this notion of collecting the art created by women that spoke to them and their place as as women in the world, and you are a part of their collection, yes, and that's gotta feel really because you're rooted in that world. And so talk to me about what it feels like to be a part of the permanent collection of a museum.

Erin Smith Glenn  42:15

Man, it happened in a way that I would have never expected, like was started as a really dark time, you know, really, you know, led to some serious sunshine. In the end, I didn't see it coming. I didn't see it coming. You know, I wasn't in, you know, an exhibit that I thought I really should have been in looking, you know, at that time, I'm just like, well, I failed, you know. But then another opportunity happened, and not in Dayton, with my usual community either, but in Cincinnati, where Sarah Vance Waddell, a person that I had met through Mark Harris. Professor Mark Harris at the University of Cincinnati. I met her when I was, like, 22 and then 15 years later, you know, I'm at, you know, I entered a piece into an into an exhibition in Cincinnati, and I saw the title of the call, and I'm like, new woman. That sounds fascinating. There was no entry fee, because they were like, we understand that many of you women are also mothers, and many of you single mothers, you know. And so they didn't have an entry fee. I was like, Well, I'm definitely jumping on that, yep. So every two years, when they do it, now there's no entry fee for women, you know. They just want you to be, like, relatively local. And so I was like, well, this could be a good experience. I've always wanted to, kind of, like, tap More back into the Cincinnati scene, you know, I've always thought the city was very beautiful. And I'm looking at this lady like, know, this lady where, then I was like, I know you because we had a class visit to your house, and you had this collection, and you had a, you know, a fountain that when you turned it on, wine came out, and then you had a painting next to it of a fountain. And I thought it was a real fountain, but it was painting. And I was like, and you had a chandelier, and you pressed the button and it played music, and you had a painting of Billie Holiday, and she's like, how do you remember this? I was like, I don't know. I don't remember how I remember the fact that in your backyard there was a bird house, and inside the bird house was little paintings on the walls. And I remember asking her, like, why are there paintings on the walls in the bird house? And she's like, well, they're going to want something to look at when they go in there. This was in 2007 Oh, it's almost 20 years ago. So then, like in 2022 I was in this exhibit, I won Best in Show for the inaugural new woman exhibit. And it came with a prize package. And I had never experienced a prize package before, so it included prize money. So the lady that just opened, the gal. Three at the Dayton Art Institute also provided the prize money for the the new woman exhibit. Right? She also put a lot, and she's very humble and modest, so she put a lot of money into what is now like the Elizabeth nurse gallery. And, you know, so everything new woman was based on a 19th century artist by the name of Elizabeth nurse, and that's housed inside the Clifton Cultural Arts Center. So part of the prize package was that I looked at the prize package, I'm like, There's money. You get to do a workshop, you get a fancy dinner, and also you got to be the first artist to exhibit in the brand new facility that they were building. And so the facility ribbon cutting was March of 2024 and All right, get out of here. Sorry, my bad. 10 year old stuff anyway. Never mind the sign that I put outside my door. Who cares about that?

Rodney Veal  45:58

Right? Children ignored parents all the time.

Erin Smith Glenn  46:03

LinkedIn, Cultural Arts Center is the first purpose built building for the arts in the entire history of Cincinnati, Ohio. Wow. I was the inaugural exhibiting artist the day that they did the ribbon cutting. So imagine being an artist walking through a building with a hard hat on because the building is not done yet, but they want you to go in, so you can envision your artwork in the space that's crazy, that is insane, crazy, crazy and so but before the ribbon cutting and everything happened in 2024 that same year, 22 when I won the new woman exhibit, you know, she was interested in purchasing a piece for her own. Because even though I won the prize, like we all got to go home with our work. So she comes to my house Independence Day 22 and she was like, Well, let me see like your work. So I brought some works up from, you know, the space that I was working in, and they were all framed and stuff. And she was like, these are nice, but can I see your workspace where you work? So at the time, I lived in a place that had a basement, and I would do a lot of my work there. And so I took her down there, you know, there was still some more works laying about, but then she saw this big drawing pad, and then she said, Can I flip through your drawing pad? And I'm like, okay, you know. So she flips through it, and one of the first things she saw a scene was an incomplete drawing of breonna Taylor. And she said, Oh, this is really important. I remember those were her exact words, this is so important. This is so important. And she's, she's also, she's not just an art collector, like she's, she's an activist, like a big activist. Anybody who knows her knows that right? And she's an advocate, and she just has such a big heart, and she just hates seeing people being treated, you know, wrong according to, like, the standards, especially of the country, you know. So when she saw the Brianna Taylor drawing, she was like, how about this? I'll pay you for it, and once you complete it, just bring it to my house in Cincinnati, you know. And then I'll get it framed and all of that. And she did that, she did, and that was in 22 and that was such a pivotal time. Because when I tell you that was, that was that roller coaster plummet year for me, it really was, it was, it was this kind of year. For me, it was like highs and lows and highs and lows, but mentally, it just felt low, low, low and, you know, mental health feels real, but it's not really very realistic to what's actually going on. Because that same year where, you know, I decided to go and take care of myself, that really, on the outside it looked like like, Okay, you missed this exhibit, but it's fine. What are you talking about? But I took my students for the first time out the country, went to Italy. That was the same year that I secured ambassadorship with royal talents. They're based in the Netherlands. They're the number one art supplier in the world. These are some of like, I have a whole room full of their paints right now, and on the back is Royal talents. So I am the only black woman in the world that is a brand ambassador for royal talents. Wow. It's insane. And if I'm wrong, hopefully Jeff Olson will correct me. He's the director of education, but whenever we have, like our annual virtual meetings, I'm the only person

Rodney Veal  49:33

black woman on screen.

Erin Smith Glenn  49:35

I mean, that's only black woman on the screen, you know, so and I think there's one of us in every state, I think, and then in other countries too. Wow. So there's North America, Royal talents, Paris, a royal there's like they're all over the place.

Rodney Veal  49:52

And so that's, that's what, and I think that's one of the things that I love about you, Aaron. It's like you never lead with all the things that you're connected to. You never, I'm saying, like, you just, are you? Yeah, and I just, I think for people to understand, it's like, it's not the the reason because, and I think that's the reason why people you, when you talk about the highs and the lows and the roller coaster, the but the run truth person in it is you, you're in the roller coaster car, but it's you, yeah, 100%

Erin Smith Glenn  50:27

like to operate it sometimes, but I can't. I'm not,

Rodney Veal  50:29

yeah, I know you can't you? Well, no, don't we, don't we all. I'm not here to tell you. Sometimes it just but, but in that being in it, in the seat of that, it's just like you, even at your lowest moment, the universe kept throwing stuff at you, like, here's and so, and I think about that and the context of this conversation, it's like, like of art Making and creativity is, is that I hope that people who listen to this, and people do, I mean, we do have an audience. Is it that they go, Yeah, okay, let me go. And I'm telling you, folks, you will not be disappointed by the imagery and the work that Aaron Smith Glen creates. Thank you, and it's not, and it's not just an endorsement, because I have, I fell in love with, actually, two of my pieces by you are completely different from work that you do remember you, yeah, because it's the, it's the it's the the neon silhouettes of the neon colors, which is probably what royal talent paints see. Yep, I'm in

Erin Smith Glenn  51:43

love Absolutely. Like, look at this. This is one of my favorites. Oh, which,

Rodney Veal  51:51

I'm a sucker for color. I love it. Me too. I mean, you're so and I but the thing is, what I love about the fact that is you're just, you're just discovering and growing. And so this other stuff doesn't matter. It's like you just,

Erin Smith Glenn  52:07

it doesn't, it doesn't because out of that darkness, like I don't really give myself credit for pulling myself out of that. I'm a very spiritual person, so I believe that you know, something somewhere was looking at me and was like, Oh, I gotta show her proof that it's going to be okay, even while she's going through it, even if she doesn't see it today. So you know that that same year that I was like, at a very low point, was the same year that I made the most paintings I ever had my life at one time, I think over the course of three months, I probably did at least a dozen paintings, and most of them were large, like three by four footers.

Rodney Veal  52:49

Yeah, I've seen, because I've seen these paintings, right? Yeah?

Erin Smith Glenn  52:54

So, yeah, um. And, you know, it's humbling, but I am a very grateful, very humble person, and I am finally leaning into accepting compliments without being just like, oh, you know, other people are doing this too, like I, I think it's insulting to not accept people's compliments in a complimentary way when they give them to you, because then, you know, they might just stop coming, and then you can be looking for them,

Rodney Veal  53:27

you know. So you don't have to look for them, you know, you will you, you phenomenal person. Will never have to fish for a compliment. Thank you. So I am so glad we got a chance to talk about this. I get it just peek into you and your world. And I'm telling you, folks, it's a beautiful world that she's generating and creating with her work.

Erin Smith Glenn  53:53

And you know, Ronnie, oh my gosh, I just admire you so much. I brag about you all the time. He doesn't just walk like he glides and moves and dances. I'm like, he can't even help it. He doesn't even know he's doing it

Rodney Veal  54:07

properly. I don't, I really don't.

Erin Smith Glenn  54:09

I'm laughing so funny. I do that in the classroom nowadays, like, I do that a lot more than I used to, because, you know what? It's a because it's time to get started in class,

Rodney Veal  54:20

because my I am going to give you the best of me the way I want to. That's what my dance little walk is. It's like,

Erin Smith Glenn  54:30

this is like, no, he's dancing when he walks.