Welcome to the very first episode of the grief ocean podcast. My name is Christie and I'm a grief counsellor and founder of The Grief Ocean.

I'll be covering all things love, loss and grief and having some very real and raw and difficult conversations in the hope that those listening can resonate and find hope and healing from some of these discussions we will be having. This also includes family and friends who may be struggling to support their loved ones affected by grief or would just really like to know better, how to understand and support those that have been impacted by tragic loss and how to get through the challenging times. This first season will focus on an area that is very close to my heart and the reason why I'm here, I am here today and this is pregnancy infant and child loss.

Grief is really one of the hardest things we will ever have to navigate and it's incredibly painful. But also because I think as a society we're generally not very comfortable talking about grief. We all grieve so differently and one of the reasons I am so happy to be starting this with somebody who I'm so grateful to be joined in this season with a very special friend and bereaved mother. I can't think of anybody better to do this with because this person who I am about introduce has had heartbreaking journey and often considered herself to be stuck if you like in her grief. It's a journey that we've shared together. And for that I'm so grateful for you being here Nova. Thank you. Welcome to the very first podcast. That's Christoe thanks for having me on. It's exciting and nerve wracking because like you said, I I have been stuck in my grief and it's it's 14 years into my growth journey and I still have a hard time talking about it to this day.

So I guess you being the expert counsellor and me being the probably perfect case study for you. I guess we're bringing different types of grief journey and I'm hoping that if anyone kind of connects with our stories that we've done the right thing by trying to make this podcast. 

Yeah, and I also think I know how you think about it and Novabut grief is just so hard. We don't know how to respond to people to talk to people to support people when we hear somebody has had a tragic loss. We don't know what to do when there's this great fear. And I guess that's the reason I know that we've spoken about this why we both want to bring this to the table where it's a conversation that we can get more comfortable with and I think more so when we talk about pregnancy loss when we talk about stillbirth when we consider how absolutely cruel the universe you can say when when it's child loss, all these losses that are very, very hard and tragic, but what makes them even more complicated, I think in my observation is that people, that response is even trickier because, I guess when an adult dies or a younger adult or even a young person, we can talk about them and talk about you know, how wonderful what they were the impact they've had in life and when you see the loss of such a young little soul it's it's harder for people to know how to then speak to you. Is that something you found? 

Yeah, definitely. I think it's extremely isolating and that people don't know how to approach it and and how to talk about it and I think I think talking about it is the key you can't ignore it. It's we're living it and yeah, there's no glossing over it.

I think back at my loss was 14 years ago and I just remember obviously surrounded by family a lot at the start and then I guess everyone gets on with their own lives. That's probably the toughest time and I remember personally just everyone was back to work I wasn't yet and just feeling so so alone in my pain and and reaching out and not finding a great deal of support or information. I think I attended a counseling session that didn't go so great and just Yeah, desperately searching for something someone to connect a little bit with, with my pain and I did end up finding a group counselling session and counselor through SIDS that helped me but that was really that was after a lot of searching and a lot of hitting kind of rock bottom. So I guess that's another reason this podcast. I think podcasts probably weren't around back then.

But if I had someone I could have just connected with I think that would have made things a little bit easier.

I think you're spot on. I love everything that you've said there about isolation and and the cruelty of the world just gets on around you often, you know following loss we want to be able to do something but I in my experience, you find that that's when you know people do show up they do understand and reach out and it but it's it's often after the funeral after those early days when yeah, as you say everybody seems to get on with their life and you've left sort of thinking, How cruel is this? And that's exactly why we wanted to do this podcast and we've got a series of different topics each week and we also hope that you the listeners can contribute to that if there's anything that you've ever wanted to know there's no questions that we won't cover or we won't feel comfortable talking about. Because, as you said, Nova, I think that's the way moving forward is that let's have these conversations. Take it away from that at awkwardness of that unknown and get comfortable with the uncomfortable Yeah, actually, he said something to me earlier. Nova was so insightful about you know, grief is it's not something you can prepare for. Yeah, not something blindsite. Yeah, totally blindsided. Yeah. I feel like I was, I guess naive in a ways I feel like I'd had older relatives die like I think my experience has been a Nana from memory I think I lost grandparents before I can remember but as an aunt or an uncle so they were older and in my Nana's case, you know she was it sound like she had amazing life.

And I just really thought that was life. You grow up, you get married, you have kids, you get really old and you die like was Yeah, and so naive in hindsight. And I think having that mindset my daughter was sick. We did have months long health battle, but at no time. I think life could be cool enough to take such a beautiful, wanted , oved small child.

So I think grief is a massive journey but I had to contend with so much shock and so much it altered the way I looked at life completely not just a little bit but completely.

So I was dealing with that on top of the brain made it felt like it made it harder. Not that anything could prepare you for that even if I had been a bit aware. Yes, you can lose children which I really probably should have been.

It's not something you go into ever thinking it will happen to you.

Just on that Nova if you're comfortable in sharing with our listeners, what has been your journey as you said, you know it's 14 years in and I know with me, the loss of your beautiful girl really changed my world to when I said it's something that it does. It changes your worldview. And I remember the moment that my worldview changed and it really did its I can pinpoint that and that was the day that your beautiful girl Alani, left this lifetime this time on here on it earth, so if you would feel comfortable just sharing and talking about your daughter and all those years ago, how it looked and what happened. 

Sure so I was married when I'm still married to my husband and I remember going on holidays and we were so excited to start trying for a family and we were going to hold off for your wedding.

That’s right you were pregnant. Yeah. So she was a very welcome accidental pregnancy. So yeah, we'll just all about to get started on our parenting journey. She was already with us. So that was a pretty lovelt surprise. I had a really quite a great textbook pregnancy. She came naturally. Pretty much a week before a due date.I had a birthing center because I was a little into the natural type of birth and all that stuff.

So it was actually a great experience. Generally speaking, and she was perfect and two to eight week checkup and the doctor just mentioned she's still jaundice. So we did all the indirect sunlight and lots of regular feeding, breastfeeding and all that stuff, too. But the doctor did want me back in two weeks, went back in two weeks, assuming we will fine, to be honest I couldn't really tell she looked unwell she would lie she had a lovely olive skin which my husband and I don't have but we thought it must be a throwback or something she didn't look yellow like jaundice normally presents and the doctor took one look at us and said I'm sorry you're going have to go to the hospital get blood tests because she's something's not quite right with the jaundice levels or whatever. So I remember feeling a little bit surprised a little bit sick and ringing my dad and getting him to come home and my husband was working at this stage. It was just a blood test. But we're not having to stay in hospital pretty much all night, waiting for the results and then we were told that she needs to see a specialist and we booked in with gastroenterologist or whateve theyre called and so began our journey of her having a disease called biliary atresia, which is one of those things you've never heard of until you're in the hospital getting diagnosed with her. Basically her bile ducts of the gallbladder were working.

So we ended up wearing we're in Perth, Western Australia and they don't do surgery on babies. So we had to spend a lot of our time in Sydney and in the Children's Hospital. Going through a couple of procedures and they failed. We ended up on the organ donation list. And she got a little bit quite unwell while we're waiting on that list and we ended up over in Sydney again, waiting there.

For an organ which we ended up getting the operation and again, that didn't work and I could probably go on for hours about all the medical things.

Yeah, so what it wasn't a really good journey. Nothing kind of went right and in the end. There was one last kind of thing we were going to attempt but they had to fully test her to make sure that they thought she could survive the surgery. But at that point of the process, her brain activity was basically non existent. 

So there was I guess no, no further medical impact was going to save her. And it really wasn't till that moment that I thought we'd lose our head home the entire time because the doctors are amazing, really, really amazing. And they were trying everything but yeah, in the end, she couldn't be saved the day before she was eight months. We had to say goodbye to her in a hospital in Sydney with our immediate family and Christie. Christie was there to say goodbye so we it's really funny because I know that moment for you seeing those nurses interact with her and us was probably your journey on onto grief counseling. It's all a blur to me. I mean, I was I can appreciate it was as good as experiences we could have had in such a painful, painful time.

And I mean, you like you say you wouldn't have even and t the time it's not something I ever would have connected it's been on reflection. It was walking into that hospital room and seeing those incredible nurses that was so present and I could feel and see their heartbreak for you as well. And I just remember thinking what amazing people what amazing souls but how also I remember thinking what a privilege to be able to be there with the family, support a family and it was it was a very strange was almost like an out of body experience. I just it's something I didn't even think of until till later and it's just stuck like a scene, it's almost like a movie was like stuck in my head watching them watching you before we walked in. But I just remember such you know, they talk about stages of grief and shock and numbness like how would you say that? How long did it take you to actually get your head around do you think?

I actually have very patchy memories for months around this stuff. I was so almost physically impossible to deal with some of it that I have blanks in it but yeah, I yeah, they had a process where we took a snip of hair and fingerprints and handprints and footprints and all these things which at the time I was just going through motions but obviously in reflection they're they're beautiful things to have and you can't comprehend what you need at that time. So it's good that there was that kind of system in place, but I do remember actually, it's funny, I think things work out sometimes because I remember ringing you and you said I'm coming over flying Perth to Sydney and I said I don't think you should because we're losing. Did you don't you remember?

You were like I'm coming over and like I basically said there's no point we're losing her. And you will get that's why I'm coming like and that's Yeah, and I think not many people like my mom wasn't there. For example, She couldn't handle it. And not everyone could be in that fly into the face of that I just I've not thought about this for a very long time. 

But I think the fact you had the strength to come over and face that. Now you're doing what you're doing thats pretty amazing, isn't it? Maybe I think a Alani was just and what I love about you being here you being I think courageous enough to be here is I know you so many people have just felt their heartbreak for you and you've not always been able to, I guess sharing communicate just how hard that is. But what I love about what we're doing too is a lot is your daughter Alani and  my daughter Emme, we are absolutely keeping their spirit alive. What a beautiful girl I'll never ever forget just how, not just on the outside but what a chilled blessed baby. She'swas  just happy.

I don't think I ever saw her cry. Like I mean I'm sure by all babies cry, but she was just very, she came out just looking around at the world like she didn't cry when she was born. She was Yeah, just a beautiful soul. Content little thing and and I remember thinking this has a lot to do. I think there's not a person that doesn't question why when something like this happens because, I remember you and Troy becoming parents. I think that you changed from that moment onwards, likeyeah, without a doubt, utter  joy. Yeah, well, I didn't know this kind of love existed that existed. And I know I think that that's really stuck with me as well like so my first eldest daughter Tess was born. What would the years be over like about over a year? Yeah, just started under two years.

And I remember thank goodness I was able to move through this but I do remember talking to the health nurses that come over remember thinking I'd love to take tests to go over and see our neighbors and introduce her and I thought I can't walk over there but what if a car comes. But honestly it's very quiet street.

I remember this feeling like whoa, this is really intense but it was because I could only imagine, I felt I felt so much devastation for you. I felt so much devastation for myself for the whole the  world for not having Alani in it but I couldn't imagine that feeling. I guess I didn't realize it at the time. But that's what I was doing. I was putting myself like imagine. Yeah, now knew that child loss is possible. Well as possible. Yeah, yeah. So And funnily enough know that I was pregnant at the time wasn't it? And I can't believe how amazing you were freaking me out a little bit,

I ended up losing that that baby we were I when I would have been about 11 Weeks Pregnant I think 10 or 11 weeks pregnant when I went to Sydney and it would have been your shock but it was also just show your beautiful nature Yeah I was so excited for you. Yeah and I don't know how. Because yeah. Having Alani was was the best day of my life. I mean, all kind of want to say all three have had two subsequent children and have to say all three are the best days of my life and they are.

But I  think Lani’s is birth because to be honest, my second child, Kenziss birth was relief that I got through the pregnancy and I I look back at that. That's a little bit tainted with sadness that that's my overwhelming emotion and God she was just a perfect beautiful little baby girl as well. So I I've moved through that. You know, probably remarkably well, but having Alaani the first one that the coming apart for the first time that just absolute joy.

I think I remember clearly actually. First, Alana and Troy caught her and I just looked at him and said, This is what we're here to do. This is our purpose in life kind of thing.

And I was just yeah, that's your joy, which obviously doesn't I mean, yeah, the memory of that is one of my favorite memories in my entire life. And I think sometimes you get so caught up in your grief, you do forget and I think that's a big part of why I get stuck. I think having the medical journey with so many, you know, so many ups and downs and so many medical procedures and issues it was very hard to probably better PTSD, if I'm honest, very hard to move through all that because I had to process that and you never want to dwell on that stuff.

And there was nothing I could do because obviously the end result was not what we hoped so I think I just would find it very difficult to remember the good things.

And that has a big part of why I do get stuck in my grief because I think the bad memories sometimes overtake the good. You've got to work hard to bring back your focus to the good.

And that's something that's come with time. You think with her birthday ays and things like that. I know you say that’s a, good day. Because it was the best day. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that's everything's right. It's everything's good and bad. It's hard to sit in the good. I think that's something I need to keep working on.

And I know even now talking about I'm feeling quite a sense of relief, because I was probably quite a closed off private person prior to this happening. And when this happened, like I'd have people ring up. I just wouldn't ring the back and I just, they'd try and talk about it and I'd shut down and I know that gave people the impression I didn't want to talk about her and I do regret that and I'm sad about that. But  I would have sat and listened I just couldn't contribute at that time. I just yet the pain was pretty intense and I didn't have words and I made it hard for people so I definitely have kind of shut down open communication. Cos I know, that's something you didn't do with me always talk you're always saying I'm you always talk about you probably been really proactive and positive and I probably did the opposite. And then sometimes when I do want to speak about her now I'm definitely have some family and friends that will and that's great.

But yeah, I definitely made it hard and awkward for people. I am aware of that. 

So in saying that is that? What would you wish the people to know in that scenario? Is there something that you could tell our listeners that would that would have helped or that I guess any messages like I just listening to you I just think one of the things that I really like a message I really would like to get out there with grief is that meet them where they are in grief. It can change day to day, can change hour to hour.

And don't give up on your people and your friends and if you offer to come and sit with them or they don’t answer your phone call. Try again. It doesn't mean it's not a reflection on you. It's where they are at the moment and it doesn't mean that that's not going to shift. It might be just what they need.

You know, in the future weeks, but oh yeah, I agree exactly what you said. I think people took my silences as not me wanting to talk about it. It was always the opposite. And I think if you doubt this fast, are you comfortable with me talking about Alani and I would have nodded might not have had any words but I would have indicated I think definitely patience,  patience and not giving up if the friendship or relationships are important to you because I definitely lost, ,I wouldn’t say lost friends but there was just such a big disconnect with certain people at certain times and friendships dissolved.

And look if they were meant to be an important enough they probably wouldn't. That that's, I guess something you wouldn’t expect as well. Something that we will probably talk about in episodes to come but I think that's really the point over it's what are often referred to as secondary losses.

Sometimes we don't actually recognise or are never prepared for the things the losses that come following that and friendships is a very common one. Also like to say to people often with that loss, whether it be because people sometimes people just can't they don't know how to be around us. It's very uncomfortable to be to me around it's very hard. I recognize and acknowledge that.

I have so much respect and gratitude for those every single person that choose to ring me or walk through my door in those very dark difficult days because and I remember like looking the most again I feel like it was an out of body experience. But you know, I would I would show photos This is me this is she Isn't she gorgeous? And that was so joyous for me because I wanted the world to know, look at her. She's here. Isn't she amazing? And I remember looking at some people who were very, you know, they would cry and they would have tears and it was so difficult to be with them and I didn't realize how powerful that was at that time or how difficult that would have been for them. But I look back now and all I have is gratitude because to me you know one of this John Worden and and whenever I refer to some theories or to some people throughout these podcasts will always put links up in the show but John Worden one of he talks about tasks of mourning and the first important thing that we can do is is accept the reality of the loss and I think that that is so hard to do. I think that's what we talked about shock and numbness because how do you get your head around that but allowing somebody to tell that story and even if they're telling it over and over and over? Or in your case even if they weren't able to because of the numbness and the shock and the pain and it's too much as been prepared to come and sit there is just be with somebody in that moment is so incredibly powerful and it’s a gift in itself. We often wondered what do we do? How do we show someone that we're there and that we care? Being prepared to be there in the days but as you mentioned early and over? I think recognizing that, for me I always say about the months after. It's when it gets really tricky when the world around you goes on but yeah accepting that reality of the loss and and sitting there and talking about it and not expecting the grieving people to be the same as they were allowing them space to to work out who they are post loss. I think I remember one of my first social outings after losing a lot of I think it was an engagement party for some friends.

Good Lord, that was tough. Like it's just just being out of the house for one pretending everything's okay for a little bit.

But I mean, it's an engagement party. So it was a happy event. I had some good friends there that were allowed me to kind of display and I felt like I wasn't expected to be the life of the party or anything like that, which is a good thing, but I couldn't agree more I would say that I anxiety following grief and social anxiety is very real. I do have I certainly develop that and I remember the dread of having to go to big events. And what I found happened to me is I felt like I overcompensated because I didn't want to be strange or I didn't want people to not talk to me. I wanted them to know I'm okay I'm here. You can talk to me come and chat. An then sometimes Oh, are you having a big night like, you know, back in the day would have been but it was just like Hello, I am not Christie Maree Collard Knight anymore. 

I would leave I would feel so stirred up because you'd get people say, and we do we all make judgments and we observe because with grieve. I love the analogy about the it's like broken ribs. You cannot see the inside pain of somebody else grief and we often make judgments gee she is doing so well. Arent you looking well. Where you're looking? Why because I'm up and dressed and not rocking  in the corner. People say what do they expect me to do? How crap am I meant to look? it's all good meeting things but it's so tough because you go home and I remember nights just absolutely just sobbing in the corner yeah.

For just something to be aware of, and  that would be, I often say to people that's really important with anxiety to is, is obviously there's times when we need to protect our energy we need to protect ourselves and we don't have to go to every single event. But also be aware avoidance can also just really make it rear its head and make it big and uglier. 

I did failed social outing a wedding prior and I basically walked in saw happy people. I think the thing was a small child running to a parent or something and I pretty much turned to Troy and set them out and walked out and left to say that's awkward with some of those people. Of course it is I think, you know, and that's where patience and understanding rather than that was awkward or weird course it was of course I am like. I think with reflection I can look back so that was so many years ago now and go I protected myself and I did the right thing but it's hard not to look back at that memory and be uncomfortable because it was uncomfortable for those around 

But I think we know and if people around us know and if people are listening to this do I go out do I not? Do I not? One of the things that I do like to talk about is that it will be hard. And knowing that can actually be very helpful knowing that this is a really difficult thing I'm going to do, but with each time it will lessen. Yes, you might dread outing or socializing for quite some time to come but doing it if you're actually doing a really good thing because avoiding it altogether can make that going back. Feel like it's almost impossible. Make it harder. Yeah.

Probably need to tell Emme story. Yeah. So for many of the listeners may or may not be aware, I guess The Grief Ocean came about because of Emme and as I highlighted earlier, I think it was you know, you don't know it was hindsight but Emme  changed my world and my outlook.

And I did have a miscarriage. What would you say a week or two wasn't after and I remember I never as a human being, express the physicality of what couldn't be. I couldn't have ever imagined how physically painful and emotionally but how how it became physical. The pain of the inside of losing a baby a child and obviously, I remember going to the doctor and they said, Gosh, you know, it's 12 or 13 weeks you going to probably miss the safe period whatever you leaving this. What is it the scan? quite late.

Obviously I'm a bit of a zombie because we've just lost Alani And as it turned out, we went to a scan and there was no heartbeat. And I remember that being so devastating and I know with pregnancy loss, it's something we'll talk about in future episodes as well. But each and every person. It's one of those things you don't think it'll happen to you and you cannot imagine how painful regardless how early or late it is. And I think it's one of those things society tells us there's all these platitudes, hey, at least you can fall pregnant or, you know, it wasn't meant to be I think these are the things that make pregnancy loss even crueler. So, so there was that and then I went on to have Tess. And then I had another miscarriage after test and I had my little girl Isla, who's now ten and then so it was a third baby and beautiful Emme so yeah, pregnancy, she was I've never been pregnant as long as I actually remember catching up with you and your mum at the park and I think that was 40 weeks. Previously, both girls were a week to two weeks early. And I remember just feeling this anxiety like this come out already.

So the day that I went into labour was such an amazing feeling because it was that wow, I'm organized and I told Brad This is our day and took the girls to mums would have been excited. So excited to the point that we couldn't actually say exactly, no, we're going to be because they could not wait a day longer. Especially our Tessie Mrs. mother hen and so we took them to  mums and then I remember saying to Brad, go get some sleep because this is like life's about to change after tonight. There's going to be a lot of not much sleep happening.

And I remember as the night going on, I just think it's your intuition that that kicks in. That's right. I just feel really uncomfortable. I've been communicating with the midwives.

And they said, you know, obviously your third there you get a little bit more relaxed and they said you know, stay at home as long as you can but I remember this feeling I mean go for me get to the hospital now. I don't care. Now like in about 20 seconds after that feeling. So I remember actually getting up and my waters broke and they broke Brown and I just remember going this I don't know what this is, but it's not good. And so I woke Brad up and literally from there on what a nightmare. It was a long weekend and I say that it was a long weekend because I guess that affects potentially staff staffing and things like that. Where I'm regional WA so Exactly. So whatever could have gone wrong certainly did go wrong. My poor husband had to, so we  went there and they couldn't get a heartbeat. And I remember the beautiful doctor he just couldn't. I think of him quite a lot he couldn't find the words.

But poor, Brad had to drive me so I was very heavily in labour by this time to another hospital nearby to confirm and I still never really understand that but anyway so and then I remember one of the nurses saying you know, like what to expect here because I remember saying I want this to hurry up like I want I think it was actually wanting an epidural or something.

Anyway, when she came and she came pretty sort of quickly. No time for any drugs or anything like that. And I'll never forget but you knew she was gone. Yeah, you would say bring Yeah, that's what they said you'd like to be. Do you know what? I remember this question. I still. What do you mean?

Do I know what to what I'm expecting? I guess Yeah. Yeah, and I but luckily, I don't think Emme had passed very long. So she was very perfect. Sometimes I think you know they can like peeling and things like that starts a lot. But she arrived and I remember looking ather,  having again what is with this out of body experiences and me but I had had this moment and they must just think that so strange, but it was so phenomenally beautiful. Because she was and we did everything like that, you know that skin to skin moment and I just everybody I remember looking around and My poor husband. I think that was the hardest thing for him. But for me yeah, it was just and I'm so grateful for that you were in that moment to have that moment I had that moment with her.

So I think that might like I've always been amazed at the strength of that moment. I imagine people kind of knowing that the outcome isn't what you expect and struggling with the labour. Yeah, I'd like I remember saying I want a C section. But we didn’t, she came so quickly.

And I remember talking, I had the most amazing doctor who sadly wasn't here for it, but she was incredible. She called me, they got her on the phone to me and she was so sad she missed it but she helped me so much with guidance with also even how to tell my children because the first words are what the expletive are we going to tell Tess Brad, what that was a hard little early lesson for that. Ah, because I remember before that so funny how the world works before that. I remember thinking I remember going to a Maggie Dent and she's amazing, Parenting Advice Oh, yeah. And she did this. She talks about grief and she says you know get get, get get, get rabbits get him used to the lifecycle beginnings and endsing.

Sounds harsh but well, but she it's real reason. Funnily enough I remember sitting there at that day going. No, like I felt like almost blocked my ears going No way. I'm not sure I don't ever want to have to tell my kids that they've lost that. I just went to grandparents because you think that expected what would happen. So I remember being that was something I was so worried about. And then next minute, like the cruellest thing you had to, actually was your reality. It was reality. Exactly.

But yeah, I remember them and that's where I've learned so much. So obviously after Emee a few years of my own personal grieving. That was when I decided I want to learn more about grief and loss and because I'd already been in I guess, helping services, community services working with vulnerable families. I've certainly worked with an experienced grief but I wanted to just learn so much more about it. So that's why I went on to do postgraduate studies in grief loss and trauma counselling, and it's been from that. But most importantly, my children have taught me so much about grief and that's why I'm so passionate about talking about and doing workshops and doing the counselling because I would have, the reason I'm here is because I remember seeking and searching and I remember leaving the hospital with this giant book of what to do to expect a stillbirth and was just that. Eventually like it just sat on my cupboard. Talk about the trees and then a couples of month later, I just I didn't even look at it. And obviously, they're amazing resources, and perhaps it would have been, we didn't have any warning. And I know some people, unfortunately do and have to wait. So I don't mean to mock those resources. But I do remember like, remember me walking the streets.

I was just lost lost. Yeah.

Somebody understood how you had been through it. And so the study was very incredibly healing for me. But in those early days, you know, the things like the doctors saying, I mean, my doctor saying and the nurses, just let us know, bring the girls up and me and Brad looked at each other. I'm like, isn't that a bit morbid. We might have I think we've got an episode coming up with siblings. Yes. So I'll leave more of that and what I've learned about that, but I do remember we did eventually have the strength to do that. And, you know for us, I've also got to say here though, so personal to us. So individual like grief is you know, they use the analogy. It's an individual as a fingerprint and with everything that we talked about, and particularly the stories I just want to mention that that this is this is our experience I do include some grief theory and practice and some models but in terms of this particular part, this was this was our experience and that was that was something that was so beautiful, and I'm glad that we did but walking out of though that hospital room when we finally decided because you know we had a beautiful time with Brad and it was very much like a very normal birth that we're holding her we'd pass her and yeah, all of that and she was very different. She had like dark curly hair kind of thing. Isla was bald and Tess didn’t have much hair either, she was my biggest baby too. It was just it was all very amazing. But that was the hardest thing of my life was ok lets walk out, and you would have had that too. Yeah I can relate. How do you?

At what point do you let them go? Because at some point, you have to walk out without the bundle in your arms that your expecting.

And that's I guess another point of difference for us I lost my first. So we're back home with the nursery with the car seat set up to be parents maternity leave, ready to go came home empty handed that was that was just so challenging.

Are you still parents and of course you are. But you don’t look like it. How does that look. Yeah. And then you with your unique challenges when you have kids and having to navigate with children. So I guess Yeah, different circumstances. And I think you know, there's parts that obviously they gave me the strength to go on. I know that the Tess was at kindy. So we had to and she wanted to , we had beautiful teachers that  came around and made sure that she was going to be comfortable to come back so she felt very special and supported. That was amazing. That was a really positive, and they had a beautiful ceremony might not be the right word, but a memorial memorial for her school and I remember being asked I couldn't go I actually didn't. But I love that they did that and I love that they asked, but I never forget. So we and I was thinking about you and how you brain fog and how much of it just I think it's our brains way of protecting us too. Because if we were to take on all of that pain, all of that acknowledgement and processing it at once, you just couldn't  youwould be and I think that's what people expect because yeah, because on the outside you're imagining and all but you in that adrenaline in that fight flight you know response you don't your body. You can't actually that's why numbness that's what I talked about. It’s a big reason I imited my contact with people because I couldn't take on anyone else's grief t but it's like I felt like I was a bit of an empath or something because I just couldn't seem to protect myself from other people's emotions or I was more aware of them but something I just couldn't handle. And hard enough dealing with my own.

It is yeah, I remember getting to the end of the term. I remember somebody actually in the people that reached out to you. It's just it's just unforgettable. And it's just that that is what gets you gets people through . So everything what can I do or am I doing enough text a text a call? I didn't come out of any like that.

When I was saying I was so hitting rock bottom and so alone and isolated reached out, amazing counsellor who end up making me do group therapy which I thought for introverted little person who will never talk to her family about it was nuts and I was really against it. She basically said can you just trust me on this and try it? And I spent the entire hour silently sobbing, but almost almost a relief like other people can see me they just people in this room who can see me and I can see them. And while our stories were so different, that connection of pain and loss, and just Yeah, I felt had felt so alone to sort of lay eyes on someone who had somewhat of an understanding probably saved me maybe even.

David Kessler is another grief expert. He talks about finding meaning but he also worked on the stages. And one of the things he talks about need for grief to be witnessed and that's exactly what your talking about talked about how it needs to be witnessed and what we feel like when I shut myself off, and then my counsellor was obviously onto it.

And also I talked about the club that no one wants to be a part of but how amazing is it to be because shared healing is just that understanding. Yeah, the phone from your mother thought,  to tell me about me about Emme. That was just so, because I just couldn't want you to join the club less.

And I remember you just saying I'm just so sorry. And you didn’t sugar coact anything.One thing that I grappled with that I talked earlier about secondary losses and this was a big one for me.

And I remember you saying sorry, but it's not The grief doesn't go away. The something that sort of sticks with you. But it's sort of you know, changes I guess the intensity but you'll never be the same and I don't know if you said it exactly like that. But I remember grappling with that feeling so cruel that my sense that the world is a safe place my future as I envisaged it was all ripped from me now I have to live with this. And I remember my mum actually sharing some wisdom and she said to me, Christie, it breaks my heart to say can you say I'll never be complete, said You are you've got your family,  that really hurt her to hear that.

It did help me shift things what eventually it took time. It doesn't happen overnight, but for me coming to accept that I am I have changed and even now I am so different you know what I don't not be more thankful for that. And I know and I think my biggest fear for you is joining this club and feeling this pain or having your life change yet. You've managed to use your pain, for healing and for good and I think that's just amazing.

I think when you can accept something like that you won't be won't be the same and that's what I say to people in my counselling sessions. But that is actually okay. Yeah, it's taken me a very long time to feel okay with that, but I definitely see that now.

Loss changes you. Yeah, but But lots of things change. It doesn't have to be a negative thing.

Wow. So we got, when we do talk and I love how you said Nova,  for somebody who has found it very difficult and suppressed and things like that. Every time that we do speak about it. You've always said that. It is you don't use the word empowering but I'm observing that it's empowering by the sentence you say like I feel like that slow heal happening every time I open up. And that's why I feel like this is a perfect match. I'm so grateful that you are joining me on this journey and we will we've got a we've got a plan. I guess for all the different things I guess. We wish people knew we wish we knew say all topics of grief. But we do want to put it out there if there's something that you would like to talk about or know more about please reach out. You can contact us through the grapevine ocean dot Comdata you all throughout the Facebook page.

Messages privately we would love to hear from you.

Any questions?

There's nothing that that can't be asked here. And we'll use that as well as our personal experience through the study and training and my experiences as a grief counsellor, we will use all of that.

Please do let us know if there's anything you would like to talk about and as we go through each week, we will continue I think there's no better way to to learn. Like I said I learned so much obviously from my experience but my children and yourself different things that we've spoken about and our experience and that's how we almost just speak to someone yesterday about how I love that grief. Theory and some of the current concepts around Grief and Healing and moving forward have mostly taken into consideration.

What Grievers want what they say have what their experiences have been because in grief that is nothing more powerful than human connection experience. So we will be talking a lot about that as well. As I said, there'll be things in the show notes.

Thank you. You're amazing. You did it. We're here. Yeah. Yeah, if we if one person connects, it's all by taking the time and putting ourselves out there. I love that. You said that. And I remember it's one of the reasons we chose to do this this podcast because like you said there weren't really podcasts happening. No, I there was some books for that hard task emotionally challenged and drained and whatever else going on. So yeah, I listen to initially said, Yeah, I'll find what you need. I think that's the podcast you're feeling a lack or something you need and you can search and reach out for it and see if that helps.

And thank you and thanks for listening and we look forward to be back next week.

Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai