When Grief Guides us to Serve

Season two kicks off as the perfect segue from season one. 

Join Christie as she speaks with Cat Irvine; bereaved mother and Bereavement Support Worker. 

 

Cat openly and honestly shares the heartbreak she endured from losing her precious daughter Isabel and how this led her to the work she is doing with Red Nose. 

 

Cat also shares her experience with loss during the COVID pandemic. Cat reflects on how her experience at the time wasn’t recognised as grief and explains how the compounding losses led her to work and study in an area she is incredibly passionate about. 

 

For further information about the Hospital to Home program Cat refers to you can visit 

 

Hospital to Home program: 

https://rednosegriefandloss.org.au

https://www.phoebejoanfoundation.org/hospitaltohome

Transcript

Please be advised this podcast includes discussions on death, dying grief and loss. If listening to any of the content triggers you please contact lifeline on 1311 14 or for information on grief counselling and support, visit the grief ocean.com.au This is the grief ocean podcast riding the waves of grief with you. Hosted by grief counsellor Christie Collard.

Welcome back listeners. To the very first episode of season two. I am so grateful today because I feel like today's guest is just a perfect segue from season one where we explored pregnancy stillbirth and infant loss. Cat is a bereaved mum who has experienced grief on many levels and is going to share with us today a grief it's not often recognized and throughout season two, that's what I'm hoping to achieve to open it up to all forms of grief and really interested in those types of grief or loss where we experienced grief but we don't recognise it as that so Cat has an incredible story and thank you so much for being here with me today Cat because I feel like you sharing your story is just going to help create a greater awareness of grief and the many shapes and forms that come in. Thank you for having me. 

So Cat Now you’re a Bereavement Support Worker in the Hospital to Home program and you're also a student midwife. It would be amazing if you would share with listeners how you found yourself on this path and tell us about your precious daughter Isabel who died in 2016. 

So yeah, it's a bit of a long journey bit of a long path. I had three early miscarriages in 2013 before I had my first son in 2014. And back then nobody really talked about miscarriages much and it was very taboo and you didn't tell anyone that you're pregnant until your 12 weeks so it was a very isolating experience that I don't think I actually really grieved properly because I didn't feel like I could grieve. And then we went on to have a son and 2014 fell pregnant again in 2016 and found out we're having a daughter and I've always wanted to be a mum of little girl so I was over the moon and everything seemed perfect until we got about 20 weeks scan.  

We went into the scan, well  we we’re actually in 19 weeks, it was the anatomy scan and we went to that scan excited to see our baby and we walked out absolutely broken. We were told her that scan that Isabel had a fatal condition called senator dysplasia and we're basically told that she would not survive the pregnancy or even if she did it would be palliative care once she was born, so we had to make a really difficult decision of whether we continued the pregnancy knowing that she could die at any point or whether we ended the pregnancy earlier so it was a pretty easy decision. We didn't really have to talk about it much at all. We knew that we didn't want our baby girl to suffer, and we don't want to suffer ourselves. We didn't want to be wandering every single day if that was going to be the day that our baby would die. So just over 20 weeks I was induced and Isabel was born on the ninth of June 2016. She was actually born alive which defied all the odds and all the midwives told us she would not come out alive that the stress of labour would be too much and that she would pass away during she was born alive and she lived for just over an hour before she very peacefully as passed away on my chest. Goodness Cat that is I'm so sorry. That is incredibly tragic. And I think it's a story that it hasn't really been shared on the podcast before in terms of like how many mixed emotions and what a shock of going to that 20 weeks where you generally that's the point where you start going Oh,halfway and it's that excitement. Can I ask what that hour was like and what it was like to that whole experience? Meet your beautiful but knowing that she's not staying? Yeah, it was beautiful. Like I knew before she was born alive I kept saying to a friend, she's going to be born alive. No one believed me. And so when she came out, Mothers intuition. Yeah, but I knew I'd like she's a strong little fighter. She's, she's going to give me that time and I knew I wanted to need at that time and so when she came out alive and she was just on the bed between my legs, I kept saying to them check her heartbeat up heartbeat and they went okay, she’s alive. She was alive and I was like I told you so they got her straight up on my chest and yeah, basically had her there the whole time. So my mum was there. My dad managed to get in to meet her while she was still alive. And I also had a priest come and bless her. I was raised Catholic and for me that was something that was quite important to have her blessed before she journeyed up to wherever she journeyed up to and so yeah, it was a beautiful beautiful hour felt like forever but also no time. At all. 

Was that fair to say just life changing for you. I mean, you. You spoke about those miscarriages as well. And I really liked your insight there and that, you know, it just didn't feel like it could be talked about which again sort of dismisses or really doesn't enable you to really grieve when you had the little boy as well. How did that go? He was 22 months at the time. He was young but he got it. He knew what something was going on. He was the day we found out my husband when I picked him up from daycare brought him home and he just ran in to me jumped on my legs, wrapped his arms around my neck and wouldn't let go and we sit like that for probably an hour. He just would not let go of me. And he knew like he was so and he still is so in tune with what's going on around him. And so you know to leave Isabel at the hospital and come home and have to parent while in the deepest, darkest days of my life was almost impossible. But he kept me going because I had to I had to get up every single day and I had to be a mother. I didn't have a choice. And I do think children, we can learn a lot from them. Yeah, they really are in tune and intuitive.

But you're so right. I often say it's just the most difficult thing grief and then having to parent through that. It's just Yeah, and it's something you cannot prepare for that. It's just incredibly painful. Did you have in the weeks that follow? Like a ceremony? Was he a part of it? We choose not to at the time because I just couldn't even fathom having to try and plan something because she was born at 20 weeks. So she was 20 weeks one day, she was kind of on the cusp of legally having to do anything. So we were lucky that we were able to have her cremated through the hospital. So we didn't have to organize all of that ourselves, which I'm really grateful for because I just I could not I couldn't even think how I was meant to do these things. We actually ended up having a little bit of a ceremony on her due date, which is October 13. And where she that wasn't her due date was I knew I was having a C section so that was a day she would have been bought me at the C section booked so we had a bit of a ceremony with family and we went down to a park down by a river and threw flowers in the river and did a balloon release which now is illegal and so obviously we don't do that anymore. 

But every year on her birthday and on her due date, we go to the same park , Isabell’s Park, love that. Its named. Yeah, yeah and we throw our flowers in the river and we have little afternoon tea for her and have a beautiful way of honouring her. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing it and obviously it's something that would you say has changed the trajectory of your life in terms of I'd love to hear more, like you're doing some amazing work. You're working in an area where you're obviously passionate about supporting those who have been through loss. Yeah. Is that obviously what led you? Yeah, yep. So I think about three weeks after Isabel died, I had called this it was at the time it was the SANDS 1300 Number When we found out who diagnosis and so I'd call that number and I'd spoken to a couple of the peer supporters and then about three weeks later, I went to launch my first face to face peer support meeting and so I was very fresh, very new in my grief and I went along and I wasn't really sure what what I would make of it. And I walked out of that meeting just thinking I found my people. These are my people. These are the people who get me.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's very hard to find those people when people around you have an experience the loss of a baby. So went on onto that first meeting, and then I continue going to those meetings for some time. And then it got to the point that I felt ready to volunteer. So I switched from attending is a bereaved parent to attending as a volunteer for Sans. So I was doing that for a bit and then when I fell pregnant with my subsequent Son, so that was in late 2017. I had a very difficult pregnancy and I was very unwell. So I sort of stepped away from all of the volunteering and being involved. And then I'd sort of started thinking it must have been around 2019 and started thinking about getting involved in volunteering with sands again, and I saw an ad on their Facebook page, this program called Hospital to Home. And funnily enough when I heard Isabel, and a few days after she was born, I kept saying to my husband, why isn't there someone I can call her to tell me what to do? I don't know what to do. I had to do Centrelink. Paperwork. I had to register her birth and death. There was just so many logistics and I was like Why can't someone tell me how to do this? I don't understand. Surely someone knows. And so anyway, I saw this Hospital to Home program advertised and I clicked on the link and I just ran out with my phone to my husband I said this is uh, this is what I was talking about. This is what I needed when it's about died. And basically Yeah, looks looked through the job description. I was like, This is me. This is what I need to be doing. So at the time, I was working as a travel agent, and I said to my manager, look, I'm applying for this job. You know how passionate I am. About this area, but my intention would still be that I will still work as a travel agent part time and do this job part time as well. And so I interviewed for the job I got offered the role and then COVID hit. So everything got put on hold, and then that's when I lost my job so it kind of all tied in together but so I've been with Hospital to Home now, three years this month. And yeah, I absolutely love what I do. So basically my role is a Bereavement Support Worker. And so I support families in the early days, weeks, months following the death of their baby, and we basically support families from 20 weeks gestation up to one year of age, and babies who have died as a result of termination for medical reasons, stillbirth, SIDS, and SUTI so we support the whole range. 

Amazing and thank you so much for doing that job because I can relate to to that feeling of just wanting, looking searching. There's got to be this is just crazy. Yeah wonder you know, all of it. So there's a lot going on and obviously like just interested to hear more. So have you worked at that till that point. Travel have been your main career your main? Yeah, yep. So we I've done a lot of sort of different admin jobs and things like that. And then we went traveling and did admin and hospitality and landed in Perth end of 2009 and was looking for a job didn't really know what I wanted to do when I grew up. And my sister was like, Ah, I saw a travel agency advertising, you could do that. 

You've travelled a lot now we've okay. And I think on the job, so yeah, basically the entire I guess my entire career up till then had been working as a travel agent. What was that like? I mean, that was a crazy time. COVID. Oh, it was awful. We were actually in New Zealand when COVID heads so we were back seeing family and friends. We hadn't been back for a few years. So it was the first time going with our youngest son and we've gone from my brother in law's wedding and before I left I were talking about COVID and China and I was having some of my clients cancel China trips and I had quite a lot of business clients and so some trips were getting cancelled, but everyone was still traveling. 

And then while we're in New Zealand, things started to ramp up and then we flew back into Australia and all of a sudden this quarantine came in and then we literally got into Perth, I think three days before you know they closed at WA borders. I remember we were in Sydney wait a few days in Sydney before we arrived back in Perth, you know, all the messages were flying us it was all over the news. And they were saying the borders were going to be shut. And I just remember thinking oh my god this is what does this mean for my job and I've messaging my manager and of course she didn't know very much and we're at my parents’ house and I remember just feeling so overwhelmed and I just walked out the door. Don't tell anyone where I was going. walked out the door walk down the street found a bar i ordered myself a cocktail, it just sat there and pondered.

Things might look like when I got back to Perth and got back to work. 

It was really overwhelming the thought of okay, so and thinking in my head like all of these clients or these trips, I'm going to have to cancel or reschedule and also not knowing how long it was going to last so we thought it might be a few months and it'll blow over who knew that it would take two years for them to reopen our borders. Oh, absolutely. And what was the timeframe from that day you just described to when you did lose your job? 

Oh gosh. So I I came back to Perth. I worked for three weeks they basically told us they would start standing people down I didn't get stood down in the first round but I got stood down in the second round so that I basically worked three weeks and then I got made redundant so that was April start of April. I got stood down and then I got made redundant in November. So it did take a while however, the writing was kind of on the wall the whole time. We knew that the redundancies were coming as soon as I got stood down. I was like yeah, I'm obviously Yeah. 

As you I know you're aware but I'm really interested in exploring all types of grief and particularly that grief that goes unrecognized when you experience the loss of your job. Do you think it was a grief reaction? I didn't know. I didn't realize that at the time. I was incredibly pissed off. So I think you know that anger is what came first anger at the entire situation anger at the way the company worked with had dealt with all of it as well. They treated a lot of us incredibly poorly and the way they handled things and I think because I had experienced such profound grief when Isabel died. I didn't see this as great at the time. I didn't recognize it as grief and I think on top of that we lost a very close family friend a few days before I got made redundant he very suddenly died. I guess I was in grief for him. So I felt really sorry for myself but also, I was feeling so sorry for my best friend who had just lost her dad. And so I think that almost minimized, I was minimizing my own grief because I thought well, this doesn't compare to what she's going through right now. This doesn't compare to when Isabel died. But when I look back on it, it was huge grief. I had lost my purpose. I've been a travel agent for 11 years. You know, so I've lost that purpose. I've lost that identity. My job was such a huge part of my identity, that loss of income and the impact that was going to happen us as a family that was a huge stress, fear around what was what was going to come next what was my life going to look like what work was I going to find what was I going to do and also that feeling of isolation, which is a huge one with grief. As you all know, that feeling of isolation that you know, despite so many of us going through similar things and losing jobs or being stood down. I felt so isolated and what I was experiencing as well. And I think also the loss of relationships because I had had some of my clients for, you know, 10 years. And so having to call them or email them and say I'm really sorry, I've been stood down. And the beautiful emails that came back was breaking my heart every single time. So lots of those relationships although professional relationships there's some really good relationships in. Absolutely and as you say, for how over so many years as well. Thank you for sharing that insight. How long did this sort of go for? Do you think? Was it just like rocky roads for months or years?

Look, I think it was quite an acute grief that I had to deal with quite quickly because I needed to get on and I needed to find another job. And I needed to find a way to get through this, you know, horrendous thing that was happening to the world because it was a fear as well around someone around me getting sick and dying. Well, there was a lot. I think there was so much grief in that space and just listening to you. You were in the midst of it and on so many levels. And I think as well it was you know the the grief of losing my job but at the time the grief of losing my life. We weren't allowed to see our friends. The kids weren't allowed to go to school they went to that to go to daycare. We weren't allowed to go out and do things and I think it was, you know, I'd lost my job. I'd lost my identity in that. But I wasn't able to go out and find anything else because we weren't allowed to go out and do anything else. Absoltyely you were forced to just sit there stay at home. Yeah. And I remember you know, I remember messaging one of my friends and just saying like, if we were allowed to see each other right now, we would just be getting blind drunk because this is really damn this is you know, one of the worst things ive been thought Yeah. 

So I think I dealt with the grief quite quickly, but in saying that, it all came back up again because once I was made redundant, I actually had to take legal action against my employer because they had done some dodgy things in the way that they paid a number of us out and there's there was a number of us and same situation and so I then had to basically go down the legal path to try and get what I felt I was entitled to and that just dragged all of it back up. Again, though they're upset and hurt and angry and that was out of your control, isn't it? You're sort of just following did that go on for quite a while? Yeah, it did drag out for months.

And I didn't end up getting very far in the end because they had an incredibly good lawyers. So to go through all of that and then not really benefit from it also was another I guess another I don't know. A slap in the face. Absolutely. 

We haven't gone there yet. But you are also studying midwifery. So how did that all connect? what point did that come into play for you? Yes. So I have it all connects together. You know with my story, but I when Isabel died, I had some really beautiful midwifery care when she died. I just remember saying to myself and saying to my husband, her little life will not be for nothing. I'm going to make a difference because of her. And obviously I am already doing that and the work I'm doing was red nose, but I knew it needed to be something big and when she died and I had this beautiful midwifery care I thought well maybe maybe that's something I could do and then you know, that kind of went to the side and then when I have my son and have beautiful midwifery care through my pregnancy with him and obviously that that time in hospital afterwards as well. I started thinking about it more when you know what, I think this is something I might want to do but with two young kids it seemed too hard. It was in the too hard basket. Yeah. And I thought maybe down the track you know, maybe long term but thought of going back to university as well was like oh my goodness, how, how would I even manage that? And so I kind of put it to the side and then when I got down, I'd sort of been pondering on it. And I was like, Well, what's what's next? And the only thing I could think that I wanted to do was be a midwife. There was nothing and I explored so many ideas in my head and you know, did things online looking at what career should I do? And the only thing I can just keep coming back to the midwife, midwife, midwife. And so when I got made redundant, my husband said to me, it's now or never it's in you do it now or you don't get to do it. And I mean, that might sound cruel, but it was his way of basically going, you know, you have to so getting made redundant gave me the kick up the bum to do it. So I went and did a union tree like bridging course because I did half a degree when I was 18 and quit to go traveling, which no regrets in the slightest, and so did the bridging course. midwifery is incredibly competitive, but I got in and now I am nearing the end of my second year with one year to go. Tat is incredible. Congratulations. Thank you. 

So amazing. You know, it sounds like you've found meaning within all of your experiences and I you know that passion is just beautiful  hopes and goals and what do you hope to achieve in this? Because I couldn't agree with you more that they're just very special people. And I like someone who's you know, experienced the worst worst in that hospital scenario and knowing how important that space is to know that somebody like you will be there for allthe highs and low is a just I just feel incredibly grateful and I think there's going to be so many people who just will blessed for working in that space. 

I have a lot of big plans love grand plan. And I mean I've still got a good 30 to 35 working years ahead of me depending on how old I am when I finish work, but I think that I really want to be part of the happy journeys and you know, be with those women and I love postnatal care. I love you know, being with them and helping them support them. To become new mothers and supporting them to help learn how to breastfeed and things like that, but obviously really passionate about supporting women in loss as well, and supporting women through that postnatal period and loss, ensuring that they have the right supports in place to move forward and ensuring that they are given all the opportunities with their baby. There are some midwives out there who are amazing at bereavement care. And there are some midwives out there who shy away from it. And having been on placement in hospitals when I say that midwives you know what I do for red nose? They go, Oh, I don't know how you do that. Or if they if we ever get a lost birth, I'm like, no thanks. And so, you know, I think there are a lot who are fearful of supporting those woman and what that might look like. Whereas I will be the first one to put my hand up and be like to put me in that toom. I know that woman needs so really passionate about working in a space where I can support lost births, and really passionate about bereavement education as well. 

So I do already do some bereavement education with red nose so I've been out to a few of the universities and presented to the students on how to put beravement, and I've done some hospital presentations and things as well, but my long term goal is really to specialize and bereavement education however, that looks whether that's at a university whether it's through red nose, I'll see where I guess the path takes me really thinking there is so much more we can do in the grieving  space, especially in the hospital setting that isn't done at the moment. How can get better in that space. Look, I think the biggest thing is finding the right midwives who want to support those women and training them and giving them the resources and giving them the time to be able to be with those woman right throughout the experience. And I think having worked with so many families who've obviously, you know, gone through this and hearing what they have to say about the hospitals, the ones that made the difference with the midwives who just just were there and we're just being with them. 

And I mean, the definition of midwife is to be with woman and I think these days with how understaffed and overworked midwives are is it can be difficult to be with woman but you know the midwife to follow up with those families, the ones who make sure they connected it with red nose or whatever other supports they may need connecting them with psych me connecting them as a social worker. Those are the ones who make the difference and the ones who treat their babies like any other baby I think that's a huge thing as well. And I mean, I had a personal experience with this. When Isabel died. The midwife who was with me on the day was amazing and she you know, she came in the afternoon and everyone left and I was just having a bit of time and she came in and she said to me come over can I have a little cuddle of her. Ah, you want it and like it just meant so much to me that she wanted to hold my baby, even though she was dead and she was it was just a body. She wanted to hold it and she's dead on the day beside me. She held her and she cried with me. And then you know when I left that day, which means go back the next day to see is about one last time but when I left that day, she came into the room she told us about it as I turned around a lot she was holding her face and whispering to her. So she treated her like a baby and then on the content can be given Oh, absolutely. And in complete contrast when we went back the next day to see her. They popped us in a room they wheeled her in and we spent some time with her interest or and took more photos and cuddled her and when we said we're ready to leave, they basically planted down the bassinet in front of me and covered up the sheet. And this was me see my baby leaving my baby in the hospital for the very last time. And they couldn't and I just felt like saying to them, could you not have held her for one minute while I left the room? And they couldn't and that broke my heart thing and just clocked her down o the bassinet. Like she was nothing absolutely great. And my husband had to drag me out the hospital. It was heartbreaking. But those are the things little things like that that made the difference. Im thinking about you know, going out and talking and sharing this and thank you for being here today. And I hope that all of those that listen, just stay on how impactful that that moment was and how simple it would be to do something, I just want to go back to what you're saying about this, obviously because I couldn't agree more. Just some midwives saved  me and mine every day moving forward because theywere so passionate and considerate and  understanding and heartbroken too.

There is so much fear in grief, all forms of grief. How do you think we can help those that might be nurses and midwives or it might not be about infant loss? It might be any forms of loss and death or automatic and just the medical industry? How do we help those that are just so fearful that might come we share that can help them through that experience? 

Oh, look, I think I could talk about death loss, grief bereavement for hours and and I think it's you know, there's so many resources out there these days that I think it's about educating yourself and signing up every fourth you can sign up for this. I mean, I'm sure you know, since David Kessler does some amazing work around grief and he has a podcast which I think I've listened to all his podcast episodes, all interviews you've done and everything. And he just talks so beautiful and distinctly about grief and making grief a part of your life and being okay with it as well. And I think you know, there's only one certainty in life and that is death. And when that comes, we never know. And sometimes that comes a lot earlier than what it should for people. 

One thing I always say to my families, and I'm working with them and because everyone beats themselves up in grief, I shouldn't be feeling this way. I should be better by now. I should be doing this I should be should be I should be. And I always say to my families, you've got to be kind to yourself. You've got to take it one day at a time. It's okay to go backwards and upside down around about increase that that's normal. That's what gried you grow around your grief. Your grief doesn't shrink, you find ways to grow around it. And I think for health professionals or whoever dealing with grief for supporting those dealing with grief. is just having that compassion and understanding and just being able to sit there and limber and I think that something that we're not very good at was free. Some of us. Some of us who work in this space are good at it. But I think you know getting comfortable with the uncomfortable and acknowledging that that's what it isn't it's not going to feel good and it might be triggering for you but like you said before about that experience with that nurse that gift like you remember that story clearly, it brought a tear to me eye. Its that's incredible. I think it's just you know, being okay, it's sitting there in silence as well. As human beings we want to fix things. We want to make things better. And grief is something you cannot make better and you cannot ignore it. It doesn't just disappear on itself. I have a quote on my notice board and I often use it with my families as well and say you cannot heal what you cannot feel. Yeah my favourite too.

You need to be able to honor that brief. You need to be able to sit in that group. And you need people who are comfortable sitting in it with you. And that's one thing that I often say to the students as well. You know when I presented to them and the midwives when I presented, it is okay to cry with that family. You know, it shows them that you care to show them that you are human and it shows him that they are not the only people who care about the baby, because that's how it feels when your baby dies, you feel like no one else in the world. You know feel that like you do. So I say to them of them, it's like you know, separate them and cry with a bed it's okay. But if they are starting to console you get your ass out of that room. Yeah.

There's a fine line. My doctor who is actually not in the same country anymore, but even years later when I would go in and see her like tears would come to her eyes and she would just say you know, we have these little scars on our hearts and your beautiful family and your daughter is now just oh my god. That just fills me up with so much love and gratitude. Amazing.

And I think you know when we know that other people think about our baby, care about our baby. And hearing people say I love them an di love them when they say Isabels name. And you know there are some families who don't like the baby's name to be used. Another thing I'd say is always ask, did you use to name your baby? Would you like me to refer to them by name? Would you like me to call them baby? Yeah, because for some families they only named their baby because they legally had to.

And it's too hard then to use that name. And I have a number of families who is basically fed in their case notes with a bookcase don't use the baby's name. And that's fine, but I think it's important to ask these questions and what I often say to health professionals as well as for anyone who has someone around who's grieving Ask the questions. Say, would you like me to what would be helpful? Would you like me to help you back your baby? Would you like me to do this? Would you like me to do that? Don't assume because I think that's one of the things that especially in infant loss and child loss is the assumption. They think ill take the baby away because they're not going to want to see it. But who are you to know what that family wants or doesn't want? And I often say to them if you don't know ask when I first started in my role with red nose one of my colleagues who said she's a death doula as well end of life doula I should say. And she said to me in one of our very first meeting, so she said to the group, she said, I have a quote that I live by, that I've learned to make death by freind. And I was like, love it. I think in my early days that everyone knows I still felt like I was sitting in the discomfort a lot of the time. But now this is my best friend, you know, right here beside me every day. And I have learned to make it part of my life.

Amazing and how lucky are all the people that get to come across your way and you know that that amazing death doula that you just spoke about end of life care I just have so much gratitude for  everyone that works in this space because it is it is so important and you just everything you've said couldn't agree with more so grateful for you sharing your story. Thank you for letting me share. I love talking about it. I could talk for hours. Yeah, same we probably could talk more after this.

How can people find out more about what you do in red nose for noise? Red nose and SANDS have amalgamated. And so now all of our services obviously fall under the one banner at the moment with two websites which will be becoming one website at some point, hopefully, maybe early next year someday. But for now, the best place to find us is on the SANSS website. Or you can just go to Google and search SANDS Hospital to Home and it's the first link that pops up but anyone who does want to connect in with us also, it's just as simple as calling th one 300 bereavement support line and just saying this is the support I want and then they will connect with their intake team will thank you so much for sharing your experience with grief and what you're doing now and all of your learnings and also some insight into the recognition that there's there's grief and loss that is really profound and it's you know, we understand we recognize that that is going to create grief response. There is other loss like he spoke about loss of identity loss of your while way of ebing, connections.

your everyday routine and how that did impact you as well. It sounds like you're there was a period there felt like a number of years it was just a big crazy jumble a big jumble and you were just saying I am not sure what year they amalgamated 2021. Non that no one did. That was a blurb so

And so lovely to have you and especially I just really wanted you to be part of the very first episode because I think we share so much and join last season but also what we hope to achieve this season. So thank you.

If you would like more information about how to deal with the emotional pain of grief identify ways to cope or would like to receive support to adjust to a life without your loved one. Christie is available for individual family or group sessions. Please visit the grief function.com.au either listening to any of the content has triggered you please contact lifeline on 1311 14