Moving From Burnout to Capacity to Thriving: A Journey with Jan Heckscher, Director at Jan Heckscher Solutions

What happens when the relentless pursuit of success leaves you feeling burned-out and empty?

Our guest, Jan Heckscher, Director at Jan Heckscher Solutions, knows first- hand what it’s like to fall victim to workplace stress and the toll it can take.  She shares her personal struggle with self-esteem and how this experience with burnout at a renowned hotel chain has crafted her approach to work and life today.

Jan discusses the importance of understanding that everyone experiences burnout differently, and how managing it involves not just a change of pace, but in many cases, a shift in self-perception.

Leadership isn’t just about driving results; it’s about nurturing one’s well-being and setting the tone for a balanced, thriving work environment.  Jan emphasizes how critical it is for leaders to prioritize their well-being and provides practical tips on achieving this, such as time spent in nature, regular exercise, cultivating a strong support system, and rest.

Our conversation concludes with  Jan discussing the power of her Reiki based energy work both in person and  online, a practice she adapted during the COVID-19 pandemic. She explains how this energy work has allowed her to foster deeper connections and support for individuals across the globe.

Join us on this podcast to get a glimpse of how Jan’s journey from burnout to thriving at work can inspire you to find your own path to balance and fulfillment.  Better yet attend our upcoming Melbourne Summit, meet Jan and experience her energy work in person at the event.

You can find out more about Jan and her work at https://janheckschersolutions.com/energy-balancing-sessions-jan-heckscher/

Find our more about Wellbeing at Work's Global Summits, our Global Hub Community of C-Suite executives and our Bespoke division at wellbeingatwork.world

Transcript

John Brewer
Host
00:01
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Conversations on Well-Being at Work, a podcast series on well-being which features speakers and participants from our upcoming summits. My name is John Brewer. I work with the North American team. I design a number of events in both in Canada and the US, and also we're launching a new event in Latam shortly. We run summits all over the world. We also have a hub that you can check out All sorts of great stuff with podcasts, webcasts and documents and the like. We also run bespoke division that does obviously tailor-made well-being sessions. You can check out everything about well-being at work at our website, wellbeingatwork.world, so please do so. So today is Conversation. We're joined by Jan Heckscher, who's a director at Jan Heckscher Solutions. We're going to be talking about moving from burnout to capacity to thrive. So welcome, Jan. Great to chat with you today. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
01:10
Thanks so much, John. It's terrific to be here. 

John Brewer
Host
01:13
And, as with all these conversations, we begin with the question of how are you doing? Just to check in to make sure everything's working and you're doing fine, hopefully. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
01:24
Yeah, doing really well, thank you. It's around quarter past nine Melbourne time now. I know that's sort of 15 hours ahead of you in Toronto, but I'm very pleased to have this opportunity to talk with you. 

John Brewer
Host
01:37
Yeah, it's getting dark here. The clocks go back next at the weekend, so we're sort of thrown into pitch darkness for the next six months. It's not quite that dramatic, but it certainly makes quite a difference, anyway. So, as I say, we're going to be talking about burnout to capacity to thrive. So perhaps if you could sort of listen in with a bit of your background, of how you arrived in the work that you do in wellbeing and your own experience in these areas, yes, certainly. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
02:05
Well, like you, I believe, John, I'm from London and I've been living in Australia for over 30 years now and I've had my own business for 25 of those years, as an executive coach, a facilitator and trainer and a facilitator of personal development retreat. So I've for a very long time had a strong focus on well being and even after all these years I feel incredibly blessed to still really love my work, and over that time I've had really a tremendous opportunity to work in a wide range of industries with people at all levels of organizations, and that's been very enriching for me. 

John Brewer
Host
02:48
I believe you initially worked in. Previously worked in hospitality. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
02:52
Yes, that's right. 

John Brewer
Host
02:54
And I think I know because we obviously had a bit of a conversation beforehand your focus now is on with your clients is helping them achieve greater balance and energy, but there was a time in your career where you probably needed to be able to help in those areas yourself. I think you experienced some burnout. So actually you could tell us what that was like and that experience and how that sort of inspired you into your work that you do? 

Jan Heckscher
Host
03:19
now? Yes, john. Well, it was a very big experience in my life. Certainly many years ago, when I was living and working in London, I had a great opportunity to take a newly created position of training manager with a very prestigious international hotel chain and it was very exciting. I loved it and I felt under enormous pressure to perform well, especially because it was a newly created position. It was very successful. I was sent to certain other Hyatt's hotels to help set up their training functions in Europe. I won awards. The downside, john, was that within a few months I ended up burning myself out. I was off work for 10 weeks and I nearly lost my job. It was really a huge extreme of emotion, going from this sense of excitement and creativity being involved in something so new to really such a sense of desolation. 

John Brewer
Host
04:24
I do wonder about that, just something that I often wonder whether I mean, does burnout tend to be something that you sort of hit like a bit of a wall, or does it kind of creep up on you rather, do you? 

Jan Heckscher
Host
04:36
think. 

John Brewer
Host
04:37
Or do people have different experiences? 

Jan Heckscher
Host
04:39
Yes, I think that latter point is absolutely spot on. I think it's very individual for everyone and sometimes I think in my experience of working and dealing with other people with burnout, it can just we're so in it, we don't even realise that we're falling into that, and so low down that we get to a point where trying to pull ourselves out becomes the hardest thing in the world. 

John Brewer
Host
05:05
Well, you can't do it on your own? 

Jan Heckscher
Host
05:07
can you Exactly? 

John Brewer
Host
05:11
So how does that experience informed your work now? 

Jan Heckscher
Host
05:15
Yeah, well, that's a really good question. 

05:17
Actually, after I had that experience and got through it, I did stay with HART and I actually was very lucky Training specialists were in short supply in Australia and they brought me out to Australia by employer nomination, got me residency. 

05:33
So when I moved to Australia I came to the country on my own, knowing no one here, and I suppose that was really the beginning of me starting to recognise that I needed to manage myself differently and I got curious and over a period of time I actually became a Reiki practitioner and that really I started to foster a strong interest in complementary therapies and I began to recognise really very strongly the importance, john, of my relationship with myself and that led me actually still when I was fully employed by the HART group, I used to run personal development retreats on self-esteem and personal empowerment and I don't know about you, but certainly at various stages in my life I've really had to work hard to sustain a healthy level of self-esteem and I think it's through my own struggles with that at times that it's really supported me to develop a deep compassion and empathy for others who are going through a similar challenge. So I've always loved to help other people, and that's something that's been a continuous thing throughout all aspects of my work. 

John Brewer
Host
06:59
Yeah, but I'm interested you had a Leadership role within your organization when you, when you experience burnout and it seems to me that that often Lot of discussion around burnout nowadays is around the way in which people are sort of over, overworked and Maybe maybe in a toxic situation with a boss and those kind of external factors obviously have a big impact on almost ratio. It work, but as a leader, you're also, you're also in a situation where other people are putting, putting demands on you. I mean, was that, was that your? I mean, I don't mean to. I'm not trying to criticize people you work with, but did you find those? So those sort of responsibilities of leadership May Contributed to the burner, or I think I was it more. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
07:46
I think that was an element, john. I think the other part of it for me and I think this is perhaps something a lot of us can relate to in a leadership role is the huge Expectations that we put on our own shoulders to perform at a very high level, not wanting to let people down, doing as much as we can to support sustainable high performance in the organization, looking after people in the very best way while maximizing the bottom line. You know, all those things, all those competing demands, I think, are great contributors. And, of course, at the moment there's also, if we reflect right now, the massive issues that we're dealing with in the world, you know instability, constant pressure to perform. People are, people are drained. We're coming up to Christmas, there's restructures, people are facing yes and sure redundancies and having to manage the staff through Incredibly tough times. 

John Brewer
Host
08:45
Yes, I mean we live and we live. You know we've got a year of sort of high inflation. We've seen the shift out of out of COVID into this sort of post, covid, limbo and who knows where it's going. You know the growth of AI and how that's changing organizations. We're suddenly facing a lot of a lot, a lot of. I Mean. I think it's always been the case when people have talked about change, that everyone looks at the time they're in and says we've got more of that now than we had. Yes, we had last time right there. That changes sort of constantly and and that can't, that can't really be the case, but nevertheless, it's certainly true. There's a lot of change, of a change going on and I think one of the things that that that's driving is that, that very strong link that you sort of just touched on there briefly between well-being and performance. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
09:33
You know, the conversations we're having with people in in the well-being space are really rooted in this idea that if we want our Organizations to perform, we have to our people have to be well absolutely, and nothing is more critical, and we know there's a sort of there's so much struggle going on at the highest levels and and so much burn out and so much high levels of stress, perpetuated by some of the issues that we've already referred to. 

John Brewer
Host
10:02
Yeah, so we talked obviously In that sort of brief sort of view, of burnout, seen it very much from sort of a An energy point of view, that it's a. It's a Essentially sort of a declation of energy, but it's also a Function of being out of balance and I wonder what, what, what is the impact on an organization when leaders are out of balance? 

Jan Heckscher
Host
10:27
Well, I think the consequences in an organization are just massive, as we know. I think we've touched on the impact on the bottom line. There's the impact on on culture. Mental health, as we know, has become such a key topic at this time, particularly as a result of the world experiencing the COVID pandemic. Lowered performance I think reputation is a key issue. You know the, the impact when there are high levels of stress, the impact on all stakeholders, whether it's your, it's clients, whether it's shareholders, whether it's Colleagues, other members of staff. 

11:10
I think there's a lack of efficiency and effectiveness that can be very evident, silos occurring and, you know, a lot less creativity and Problem-solving because people are just trying to get by, because there's no energy to do anything else and can, I think, lead to people leaving Deadlines, missed Cops, overruns, you know, and I think the contagion effect of all of this, john, is Such a key issue because, of course, we're not just People at work, where people who wear all sorts of different hats in life and when we know leaders are so stressed or burnt out. This can, of course, be true for our staff at any level. The, the impact is is massive. So how then do people Satisfactorily manage their relationships as a parent, with children, with siblings, with friends. You know, I think the Really that the issue of contagion is one that's easy to underestimate. 

John Brewer
Host
12:26
Yes, yeah, I came across a quote this week from a guy called Richard Safia. He's an author but he works at Johns Hopkins. He was talking about how, the responsibility that it's about leadership development. You said when we're developing our leaders, we need to develop in them the capacity to care and nurture and look after their, their people, because otherwise they're gonna get up and leave, and I thought it was a very simple statement, but I thought quite quite so telling. But, on the other hand, it's also another burden that leaders have to bear, isn't it? I mean, there's not. It's another Responsibility on you, and, and, and you can't Deliver on that unless you yourself are managing your energy or in a band exactly, and I think you're hitting on an absolutely key point. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
13:16
You know we hear this phrase now, I think, particularly you know we need to put on our own oxygen mask first. We need to make sure that we are top top before we can possibly have the capacity to perhaps respond to others and their needs in a way that is Conqueror, with great intent. 

John Brewer
Host
13:36
Yes, yeah, and you've, you've on that, that word again, another word, that sort of key in the sort of theme of our conversation of capacity, that that you, your, your, your capacity is, is, is compromised if you're burned out or out of balance and you sort of fix that. But there's also that Also notion of, of of thriving, that that it's not about just so the game getting by is, it's about taking your, your performance and the quality of her life to another, to another level totally, totally and the impact of that is just couldn't be great really. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
14:12
I think part of the issue when I reflect on my own issues of burn out. At that time we can all perhaps relate. When we're at high level, experiencing high levels of stress, it's easy to be preoccupied with our own stuff and they're much harder, as you say, to be able to focus on the, the needs of all the people around us, whether it's inside or outside of the work environment. 

John Brewer
Host
14:39
Yes, I do think that the I have to confess, I'm sometimes less than sympathetic to to, to to leaders, in the sense that you know they, they do, they do, after all, have a, you know, I think, in many ways have a good you know, have a good good deal, is it well, right? But but it is. It is just, I think, a massive Responsibility in terms of, in terms of what, the kind of the, the impact that I mean. You know, there's quite a stat or stat or a fact that was been quoted a lot recently. Yes, it's so. You know that your manager has a bigger impact on your well being and your spouse. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
15:18
Yeah well, how much time do people spend at work? And I think part of the issue that you're prompting me to think about as well is, at the moment, so many in the workforce in so many organizations are struggling in a way perhaps they never have before. The demands on the leader even greater Perhaps in the past, so huge responsibilities that with their trying to juggle with all the different hats that they're wearing and their responsibilities to the organization and stakeholders, etc. 

John Brewer
Host
15:52
Well, and even even broader than that. You know, I mean, the social responsibility organizations are taken on. You know, the responsibility for the environment and all sorts of other other other issues that the you know the increasing focus on diversity. I mean these, these are, these are obviously important, worthy and value things to be doing, yes, but it does create greater complexity absolutely absolutely. 

16:22
So what I mean, what advice would you give to you know, if you know, if we were talking to a leader now who sort of was feeling A little overwhelmed, so pulled in lots of directions, maybe with some people in their team that are struggling in some way, what, what, what can they do to Nourish themselves and to make sure that they continue to? 

Jan Heckscher
Host
16:51
I'd love to shortly share with you some of the things I do in the energy. Yes, but before I do that, perhaps I can share with you some of the things that I do and I think we can all do to support our sense of well being. Yes, and so some of the things, perhaps a couple of more obvious ones. Being out in nature, I think it's so easy to underestimate the power that that has to help us feel in a more balanced and calm state. I think exercise is very talked about but, you know, make such a difference to, I think, how we experience life. I'm lucky, I've always loved exercise and, as a busy person, as so many of us are gosh, I find it an absolutely Key part of what I use to sustain me and some couple of things that I personally do. John, I sing in a choir and that's a lovely sense expression and community and personally I've always invested a lot in friendships and relationships. So having a strong support network I find incredibly helpful. 

18:09
I think, the need for us all to to rest, to make time for me to just recognize when we need to stop, which I didn't do in the example we talked about, when I burnt myself out before. I love the bath. I find that very relaxing bubbles in the bath or bubbles in the glass or both and focus on what we can control versus what we can't. 

John Brewer
Host
18:40
Yes and yes. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
18:42
I have taken in my career many, literally thousands of people through time management training. So I think, looking to manage our time and energy, recognizing they're both finite resources, you know, rather than saying okay, I'm going to fit 16 hours of stuff into my eight day, which sets us up for complete frustration. How can we set ourselves up for success? 

John Brewer
Host
19:05
And I do think people tend to focus a little too much on the time side than the energy side. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
19:10
Yes, it's such a driver, isn't it, of how we invest our time. Yes, that's actually our energy that is demanding of us having a big focus on. Yes, a couple of other things eating Gosh, you know, I mean. I try, like probably most of us, to eat well and do the right things most of the time, but it never ceases to amaze me that, when of course I don't, the impact it can have on mood and also energy. 

19:39
Yes, a couple of other things, I think looking to have an awareness of our boundaries and looking to try and be disciplined in managing those in a way that is helpful to us and others. You know that practicing saying no appropriately is perhaps an example of something that is hard to do but makes a huge difference to how we feel. A couple of other things, and perhaps this sounds a strange one, but I'm sitting here, john, today, wearing strong blue and green, but I find, in my experience and often I pass this on to others if it's relevant but actually wearing color to uplift us or strengthen us or comfort us or energize us, depending on what we think we may have to deal with in any particular day, can actually also make a big difference to our sense of well-being. You know, in Melbourne, john, we're very known. You know we all wear black in Melbourne. 

John Brewer
Host
20:45
I'm guilty of that. I mean, I'm sitting here wearing black myself now, and I wear black almost entirely. So, yeah well, even the hat I wear when I go out in the winter is black. There you go. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
20:57
There you go. Well, you're perhaps putting on a bright scarf or something, but you know it's just making those conscious choices, whether it's about food or stepping outside, taking a break, saying no, you know, and listening to music. You know how many times, when we come in, do we perhaps put something on as background noise, but actually using music to support us? And another thing, sorry. 

John Brewer
Host
21:24
Yeah, so we've actually got an episode coming up of the podcast. We're interviewing a fellow and it's about the impact of music on mental health and, in fact, specifically around using different sorts of music to support different states of mind or activities. That might be when you're being really active or when you want to be quiet and peaceful. And so I'm delighted you mentioned that, because that is just, I think, a great untapped resource and it makes a difference. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
21:52
Yes, and the other thing that I'd mention is personally. You know I love to socialize, I love being with people, I love my work, but I absolutely recognize I need to have times where I step back to restore and recharge myself, because otherwise I can't, if you like, be in the world in a way that I am comfortable with, because I'm just too tired and I'm too drained and not available. 

John Brewer
Host
22:19
Yeah, yeah, no, those are, those are. That's a great list of things. And one thing that strikes me is and I was thinking about the notion of balance and time and energy and we think, when we think you often hear people talk about work-life balance, for instance, right, and that they tend to think of that in terms of sometimes they're very sort of reductive and they think, well, that means if I spend eight hours at work, I've got to spend eight hours, you know, playing with the children or or doing whatever that life thing is that you do right, that there's that sense of sort of balance being, being, that sort of equality. But it's also about, it's also about time. When they think about time, right, they're not, they're not think when I, when they're thinking about balancing work and life, they're not thinking about balance in a sort of more internal, spiritual non time. 

23:14
I mean, I'm not expressing this very well and I'm hoping, and I'm I'm sure that you can, you can put better words to that because you're you know the part. You know one of the core pieces of your business is your activity with people. Is creating that, that balance within them? Right, and it's not about time, is it? It's about something else. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
23:34
No, no, it's about really supporting our energy so that, on all levels, we can be our best selves. Really. 

John Brewer
Host
23:47
Yes. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
23:48
Okay, you know a lot of it. The word that's coming up for me, as you mentioned that, John, is the importance of connection with self. 

John Brewer
Host
23:59
Yes, yes. So how do you do that? 

Jan Heckscher
Host
24:05
Well, as you are aware, I actually have a great passion for the aspect of my work that I call energy balancing. I've now provided hundreds of these sessions and I find it a profound privilege, john, to work with people in this way. In the way that I approach it is generally a hands-on modality and I work out of a well-being clinic and generally it's one-on-one work. So I work very much with my intuition and, you know, looking to really connect with that person. Interestingly, during COVID, of course, I couldn't provide these sessions and it was very frustrating to discover that at a time where perhaps it was very needy to be giving people support to help them have that stronger connection with themselves and the very weak relaxation and so on that can result. 

25:08
So, interestingly, 10 days after COVID started, an old client friend of mine rang and I was expressing this frustration to him and he said, well, why don't you do it online? And I said, well, I couldn't possibly you know. Anyway, within two hours over the phone I'm doing a practice session with a friend who had had several hands-on sessions and I said could I just do this with you over the phone? Anyway, the long and the short bit was she said oh, my goodness, it's just like being in the room with you and it was a really delightful discovery out of the adversity of COVID. Through that first year I did over 100 sessions over the phone, locally, nationally and internationally, and it's a way that I have continued to do that energy work now alongside the hands-on, which is, you know, it's exciting. 

26:01
And recently I actually was invited to be part of a staff wellness and wellbeing expo and they actually asked me to do taste decisions, John, which were obviously much shorter In that situation. Literally, we had sort of 10, 12 minutes with each person and it was an absolute delight really to work with people in that way and listen to their responses, even at the end of that very short time. When I do this energy work, whether it's a longer or shorter session as my duty of care, I always like to check in with somebody by phone within 24, 36 hours, and I did that with each of these people that I met at the expo and really it was incredibly validating to hear what they had got out of that and how it supported them in their way of being and their connection with self. 

John Brewer
Host
27:09
I think it's interesting because I did a little exercise during COVID, which was semi-serious. I went and asked my network in LinkedIn what they were missing most. It was about six, eight months into COVID. What were they missing most? It was phrased a bit differently because we were involved in a grief project, but basically the question was what were you missing most? During COVID? 

27:36
People came up with lots of things, so I can remember one was mentioned that their office is next to a school and they didn't hear the kids playing in the yard anymore. There were things like that. But everybody said everybody said I miss being hugged that it was that there's a lot of talk about social connection, human connection, connection, connection. That's vital to one's well-being in a fundamental way. We don't talk a lot about the impact that we have by our physical presence and our physical contact with people. I'm not a hugger, but I find it interesting that your own practice is built Again, if I'm misrepresenting it, then please don't. It's built on a physical practice but it still works when mediated through technology. There is something essential about About that that presence isn't there well having a connection. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
28:45
You know, like you and I are talking now, we have a connection, even though I'm not physically in the room. 

John Brewer
Host
28:50
No, we're, we're along, we're a long way, we're from, we're from, we're from similar places in the UK. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
28:56
Actually, our accent, our accent of diverge, yes, yes, so I think it's that word connection, whether it's in different, in different ways and on different levels within ourselves, that that is crucial. 

John Brewer
Host
29:14
Yes, yeah, but it is, and you'll be doing some of these sort of brief things at the at the event. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
29:22
I'm very excited that, as part of the Australia well-being at work summit, I'm actually going to be offering these Energy balancing taster sessions all day to all the delegates, both in Sydney and Melbourne. John really people an opportunity to see what a profound difference it can make and Let them know that there are, you know, new and different things out there to support both themselves as leaders, their teams, people like Work with. Sometimes I'm working with people who have real health issues, all sorts of things, and, as I say, it's a profound privilege for me to work with people in this way and a delight to connect with them. 

John Brewer
Host
30:07
Well, I think it's great you're doing, because I mean, one of the things I was chatting to Lawrence about, about the events, and you know, I think I think these well-being at work, work, events are obviously you know, I'm Fully immersed in designing them, working on them. I think they're great, yeah, but I think sometimes you can, they can be too much talk, not enough action. 

30:24
Yeah and I think I think you know what what. So what Lawrence is driving out with with the event, and certainly how we're thinking about, how we're doing these things, is, you know, not to just create a talking shop about well-being, but but something where the experience that people have of the event is in and of its is itself Uplifting and and energizing in that way and having having you there I'm sure will contribute a lot to that in in Melbourne coming up. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
30:49
Well, thank you later in November. Thank you, and I think you mentioned a quote earlier on and you talked about the need for leaders to nurture and look after their staff, and this is a really great way for people to demonstrate that care and valuing of their people. 

John Brewer
Host
31:09
Yes yes. 

31:13
I wish, I wish, I do wish so much I could be there. I'm in the great white north and we're kind of at the end of our time for this and I could have certainly we both, I'm sure could have carried on, carried on for quite a while. And typically I closed this session by asking and I'm gonna put you on the spot here and I'm not gonna ask you the question that you're expecting, and so but it's close enough and I always close by saying what's the one thing you do that you feel nurtures your, your, your well-being? But the thing is you've already answered that question several times because you've told us that you're seeing you sleep, exercise, you go out and nature, noise, things right. But perhaps to quite our twist that question a little bit and say what would be your, your one, you know the again it's a bit fake ask one piece, but one piece of advice you'd give to a leader that would help them that. What should they be doing with their team To help them, to help them thrive? 

Jan Heckscher
Host
32:15
Investing in themselves to be as much in balance as they can possibly be themselves to honor all aspects of their role, and supporting sustainable high performance and well-being throughout the organization. 

John Brewer
Host
32:29
I think that's a bit an interesting and, and so you were gonna, you were gonna go on a bit there sorry, sorry, john, that that's me. I didn't mean go on a bit, I didn't mean. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
32:41
Yeah, that's what I would, would say, an answer to that question. The other thing I would just mention, if I may, which I find a very powerful technique for myself to support well-being, is the power of positive self-talk, and you know I've we've talked a little bit about the importance of connection, and connection with self, and yes. I'll just share, if I may, briefly Go ahead. 

33:08
Yeah, a belief that I have I'm not saying it's right, it's just my belief and that is from our relationship with ourselves. Every other relationship comes Therefore, the more that we can actually be in a really state of good health and energy ourselves. Paradoxically, in my experience, we then have even more to give out to others in a way that is has a positive impact and Helps us Be the best of ourselves in all those different situations, with the different hats that we wear in life. 

John Brewer
Host
33:45
Well, I think that's an excellent, an excellent answer to two pronged answer to that, to that question, and and Is much more useful than if you, if you'd said well, you know, you know, the best thing would have been to buy a, bought them a gym membership or something which I, which I was not expecting to say that who knows right? 

34:06
So I thought we have to conclude. So I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us and I Hope, hopefully, I'll get out there, maybe in 2020, 2024. I have to see if I could they'll maybe they'll maybe send me out there, because I'd love to come out to Australia and, you know, meet you and yeah, I was just involved. Get a bit of, get a bit of sun and warmth this time of year as well, would also be nice. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
34:29
Yeah, for sure, and look. Thank you so much for the opportunity to talk with you. It's been great and would love to meet you next year. 

John Brewer
Host
34:36
Okay, thank you. 

Jan Heckscher
Host
34:37