S3 E30. From Inside the Crease to Behind the Whistle: Matt Palumb's Lacrosse Journey, Part II

In this episode of 'Get the Lax Scoop,' hosts Big Dawg and Jaybird bring you insights and anecdotes from the world of lacrosse. Featuring an engaging interview with Matt Palumb, NCAA Tournament MVP and three-time National Champion at Syracuse, now the head referee of the Premier Lacrosse League. The episode delves into Matt's playing and refereeing journey, highlighting his experiences under renowned coaches and memorable matches. Tune in to hear Matt's compelling stories about Coach Roy Simmons, unforgettable championship games, and his transition to refereeing. The episode also includes a segment on the different forms of greatness in lacrosse history and details on the new book 'Inside the Recruiting Game: Insights from College Lacrosse Coaches.'

00:00 Introduction to Get the Lax Scoop

00:23 Meet the Hosts and Guest

01:00 Interview with Matt Palumb Begins

01:29 Matt Palumb's Practice Insights

02:11 Coach Simmons' Unique Coaching Style

03:11 Memorable Moments in Lacrosse

05:52 Syracuse Lacrosse Legacy

15:56 Greatest Lacrosse Teams Debate

18:50 Inside the Recruiting Game

19:18 Matt Palumb's Refereeing Career

19:47 Maddie's Officiating Journey Begins

20:53 The Adrenaline and Financial Drive

21:20 Transition to Lacrosse Officiating

22:28 Longevity and Passion in Officiating

24:59 The Importance of Positioning and Replay

28:07 Memorable Moments and Challenges

29:28 The Emotional Impact of Officiating

31:47 Reflections and Future of Officiating

34:54 Iconic Games and Controversial Calls

38:09 Closing Thoughts and Sign-Off

NEW BOOK!
Inside the Recruiting Game: Insights From College Lacrosse Coaches
-Available on Amazon.com as an Ebook and paperback

Donate to Harlem Lacrosse Summer Camp:

https://www.harlemlacrosse.org/gmvs2025

Links to training videos:
Master The 5 Best Dodges From the Wing!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_7LDOcQQ6Q&t=88s

Blazing Shots... on the Run!
https://youtu.be/XiptPlM63oQ

Check us out...

On YouTube @jaymcmahonlax23
On Instagram @jaymcmahonlax23
On Facebook @: facebook.com/jmcmahonlax23. Page name: Jay McMahon Lacrosse

Jules Heningburg: https://thelaxlab.com/

Check out!... Coach Tintle's Lacrosse Barn:

https://g.co/kgs/eXedCXf

SuccessHotline with Dr. Rob Gilbert on Ironclad & Apple Podcasts

Brian Cain Daily Dominator on Apple Podcasts

Lacrosse Charities Mentioned in S2 E36:
https://www.4thefuturefoundation.org/

https://www.harlemlacrosse.org/

https://15forlife.org/

Transcript

0:00

It's time for Get the Lack Scoop, a podcast bringing you all the people and stuff you should know in the game of lacrosse. We take lack seriously, but ourselves, not so much. Join host Big Dog and Jaybird and the biggest names in the game brought to you by Jay McMahon lacrosse. That's JML skills, mindset, and lacks IQ training. Ron Doglish, the big dog, was a collegiate football and lacrosse player at Brown. He was also an assistant lacrosse coach and the executive director of the Sports Foundation. And Jay McMahon, the Jaybird, a three time All American midfielder at Brown. He was the captain of the U. S. Junior National Team and is the founder of JML. And Joining us in the studio, Steve Grisolfi, who's collegiate lacrosse career statistics equals one goal against Dartmouth brought to you by Jay McMahon lacrosse. That's JML skills, mindset, and lacks IQ training, helping the next generation of lacrosse players get to the next level Hello everyone, and welcome. We're super excited to bring you the next installment of our interview series with NCAA Tournament, MVP and three time National Champion at Syracuse, and the head referee of the Premier Lacrosse League, Matt Palem. If you have not heard the earlier message, we urge you to go back and check it out for if you do, we believe you will profit mightily. You will find this interview in progress. Hey Matt, can you, can you go back though to this. This piece that Jay was asking about the practice, I'm just interested it from like you were referring to it from a mental aspect. Right? On the one hand, they've gotta be pushing you every day. I mean, there's no way you're not gonna get better. Well, just hilarious. He said like some days I never talked ball. I'm the goal. Yeah. Some days I did not make it safe. I know that happened a couple times and I'd be late. How did you, how did you manage that sense of both, you know, you were, you know what I would do once in a while? Like I'd go with the seconds and go like, play against her. Yeah, yeah. Right From the other team. Get them on my team once in a while just to boost my confidence more the shooters. Yeah. Yeah. Right. No,'cause it was unbelievable and, and of course Coach Simmons, to your point, you know. We played five on four, broken drill for it seems like hours, you know, we'd five on four fast breaks. Yeah. Um, you know, just everything was always moving for Right. 90 minutes, you know, people out there two and two and a half hours, 90 minutes and you never, there was no like, stand there. He was not big on like one-on-ones. Like, do your one-on-ones in the context of what we're doing. You know what I mean? So there was not mm-hmm. He didn't want. Mm-hmm. People stand, and again, back then we don't have the facilities. So you're standing out there, it's fucking 32 degrees out and you know, like keep'em moving. He was always, let's keep moving this game. Yeah. All the good he goes, all the good teams I see move. He goes, let's keep moving. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. You know, he's very big, you know, X's and o's were hugs and kisses to him and, and uh, yeah. Yeah. But he knew what an athlete looked like and he knew, you know, I'll never forget one of my favorite Roy stories, big Roy stories, is, uh, Hopkins in the Dome in 87, And I'm a freshman. This is, watch that game. That was a sick game. Brian Wood. This was great. Played amazing you guys, I think was, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, uh, I'm a freshman. Greg Burns, uh, I'm in a red shirt. And, uh, Greg Burns is standing next to me. He's gonna get some run. He's my best friend from jd. We, we've grown up since we were three years old, and now we're standing next to each other. 20,000 people in the dome. Saturday night we're playing Hopkins. Like we're looking at each other. We can't even believe we're there. We're like, yeah, that's amazing. So cool. That's, yeah, like I got a poster of'em in my room, right? So we have a very, so now the gates are freshmen too, and we have a very senior laden midfield, uh, Todd Curry, right? Kavanaugh. We, we had dudes right. Pat Donahue, uh, you know, all kinds of guys like that. So I will never forget it. Sometime in the second quarter. Roy Simmons would never be involved with. Like coach, like actual person, like no, you're going in, you come out. Desco would handle that. Kevin Donahue would handle that. Huh? Roy was kind of, Roy was just running the orchestra and uh, the ball went out about, he was hanging out near the box. Coach was, and Gary Gate was, was right behind him wearing number 38. And the ball went out of bounds. Uh, Hopkins turned it over, we're gonna pick it up and, and we're in their, just in their offensive end right near the box. And, uh, uh, Todd Curry's about to step, you know, okay, mids, not that he's about to step on and scoop ball. First Team American semi grabs his arm. Oh no. Just grab Gary's jersey and, oh. And I'm like, all see, picks it up. And of course, the kind guard, you know, he's 38. Nobody ever seen or heard of him in their life. Right. Ref blows the whistle. This guy's gone and now he gets in on Stuart Jones and he throws about nine fakes at him. Like Stuart Jones is like on his back. By the time Gary's done with him, dumps it in circles back and he's right back next to me. Like in like the, you know, he never said anything or did right like this. I go and we're all like, what the fuck? That was pretty good. What was that? Right, right. That was, what was this guy doing? His first touch, God. Oh my gosh. So tough choices there for Coach Simmons, uh, Curry or Gate, which, which way do I go for people, for people who don't know, Todd Curry was the first team all American played on team USA. So that's who he is pulling aside to put Gary Gate. Exactly, exactly. And, and again, Cindy not on X and O guy, but he is like, I know I got a C 38. Do something. Right. Let's see, let's see what my boy's made of. Right. Well also really interesting though,'cause Jay you asked about wanting to know Coach Simmons, like Yeah. Uh, you can say it's about being cold, but you know, I mean, Jay, you and I played in that era, it practices weren't 90 minutes five on four helter skelter. Just, you know, so, and, and everybody knew when you guys got into an unsettled, I mean, you had great talent, but if the ball got going and things got helter skelter, forget about it. Weren. Right. And so you could feel the piranhas coming in for the forensic, like, okay, it's ing to hear that, but that's what he prepared you guys for. He, he, it was that up that fast pace didn't just happen. Right. That was right. The game he knew he had that game. Horses, he knew he had athletes. So he's gonna drill you guys on. Just keep coming at him, keep moving the ball, keep moving each other. It's really interesting to hear that. And you know, he, he is, uh, he is a famous, you know, a world renowned artist, so, and he's kind of a, kind of the hippie, trippy kind of guy, right? He sixties and the whole thing. Right. And, you know, selling art on Cape Cod, he's that, that guy, but he also was a boxer, and he is got a little, he's got some, some dirt under his fingernails. You know what I mean? He, he, huh. Yeah. And, and that blend of, of trying to. Find a good word for the, for the artsy part of him, the, the, the elegance of him. Mm-hmm. Right. And the, the, the, um, you know, he'd take us to museums, he'd, you know, we all kinds of different stuff, you know, like Huh. The Renaissance man. Yes, thank you. But also, you know, a peer purist with boxer, mess with him. Yeah. Go, go, go poke him and see what you get. Yeah. And so we had that, a Renaissance man who would punch you in the nose, right? Absolutely. And, and, and, and you know, Syracuse lacrosse had lean days in the seventies. They wanted to drop the program that wasn't funded. He's teaching art on campus, you know, making no money. Uh, and you know, he, he had a chip on his shoulder. You know, Cornell used to pound the crap out of us right. In the sixties, seventies. Yeah. You think he didn't enjoy beating him at home for a national championship in 1988? To go 15 and all right. I mean, Damon McEnany, those guys thrilled. Syracuse, Syracuse. Could not play with those guys back then. Right. So he he was always a little, eh, yeah. Richie, what do you think of that? Right. You know, I mean, he's a tough old bastard, you know, so he was not just, he's not just the artist. He's, uh, like I said, he's got a little grunge to him and, uh, and, and that was a great recipe, you know? Yeah. That's amazing. Like, he, he, there's nothing like him in the, in the, in the world. I remember Pat McKay saying, you know, before game one or one of these big games, maybe playing Hopkins or something. Yeah. You know, coach Simmons came out and he said, all I ever needed to learn, I learned in kindergarten. I was like, that was the pregame speech. Or, or maybe before the bus ride and we all read it on the bus or something. Looking at him. I'm like, what? Like the guy was a mystery and yet, like you said, he was a boxer too. Yeah. Well I gotta tell you my, my, I'm gonna give you one quick one'cause he is got 8,000 great stories, but my favorite one pregame. And the best part was John Desco is very black and white. Like, here are the matchups. This kid's a lefty, this kid's a righty uhhuh McCade. You're, you're guarding him. So he's chomping on his gum with the lineup sheet behind him, and Roy Simmons wants to talk about the Wizard of Oz. Right. What are we missing? What are we going to get? Like, right. Did that hold down? Like, whoa, Tesco's, like, do you That's classic, you know, camillis New York. Yeah. You know, I need to, I need to coach here for a minute. Right, right. So anyways, my all time favorite was, he started telling a, um, story about, he opens up, there's a football game between the insects and the animals. And the first half goes and the animals much bigger and stronger drilling the insects, you know, and the insects are defenseless and, and, uh, you, I'm paraphrasing the whole thing. Second half opens up. Opening kickoff. Animals kick to the insects, centipede catches it, centipede go. Wha boom, boom, touchdown. Wow. They kick off, centipede runs down, makes a big hit, makes an interception. I mean, he just turns the whole game around and they, and they win. And, and you know, coach comes up to him after the game, says Jesus Christ, Mr. Senate people, where the hell were you in the first half? And he goes, I was getting my ankles taped, you know, just to loosen you up. Let's go play. Right, right. Oh my gosh, what? My favorites? Yeah. Oh yeah. No. And he, and, and multiply that by a hundred. And that was my experience of those types of, you know, we're building a church. Big potatoes come to the top. One farmer spent the time sorting'em. The other guy just took'em down the cobblestone road'cause the big potatoes come to the top. I mean, the. On and on and on. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Absolutely doesn't like it. Now Jay, Matt did win some championships. Perhaps we should, we should get back to some championship memories. Just a few. Hit us with a few top memories. I mean, these have been awesome stories. I'm loving it. But maybe just focus one or two colonels from those three title wins. Yeah. I, uh, the first one, very special. Cornell, Syracuse, upstate rivalry. Right? I think. I think, and we had 20,000 people in the do, and I think it's the first time lacrosse game had ever had 20, you know, 20 or more. Um. And again, great rivalry. Paul Scheller, good buddy of mine, God rest his soul in the other cage. Um, right. And then you win the MVP schmo and I win the right, I win the MVP and uh, Burney cheeses me, he goes, it's'cause we all had two goals. Nobody went off. So that one was really special. And, and again, I at Syracuse Yeah. You know, played well and, and in a big moment, you know, first time ever being, and that was so much fun. Um, you know, coming off the heels of Airgate, we, we were in deep trouble against Penn that year. Yeah, that's right. Semis when Gary got into the, the Dunking. Um, so that whole weekend was really, really pretty cool. The, you know, the Penn game was, was, you know, still legendary. Right. And, and then yeah. A one gold game. Great. That was an amazing, amazing game. Yeah, and I had a great experience on Monday, so, you know, that one's special. The Hopkins game in 89 that we come back and win. Um, I'm playing like a pig for the first three quarters of the game and I, and, and what I'm most proud of is I dig out, but you made the last save and I made a couple good ones in between, like I, I, I, I, I showed a little grit that my dad was like. I know and it's easy to play good when you're playing. Good. Let me see something when you're down. Right, right. Love it. And my, my dad was actually proud of me that day'cause he goes, you hung in there and you made some plays. Good for you. That's awesome. That's awesome. That was, and then the last one, anyone who hasn't seen it, you can look at that on YouTube in its entirety. Yeah. It's an, um, Petro Gary. Right. The two, the two greatest, you know, hammering each other. Gary Gate was being dominated by Petal. No, I don't think so. He, he only scored three goals, but that's like the commentary from the game. I'm like, if I go out and score three goals, the national championship game, I'm like, yeah. Right. They're like, oh Gary, he's interviewing me three points. Gimme a break, gimme six or more. Absolutely. And then my senior year, you know, we, we, we uh, we hammer Loyola 21 to nine. Yeah. And that game was kinda like a culmination, like the cherry on the top of the three years of just blitzing people. We blitzed them, you know, was not, this was other domination. Yes. We were on the receiving end of that team. We played you guys in the playoffs and we love to this day, even Dom SAR says it, yes. We gave them the closest game by losing 20 to 12 and meanwhile it was really 18 to 12. Our goalie, you guys are trying to run the clock out. Snake runs out to the midfield outta the goal, and you guys throw it in the goal like two more goals. It's like, snake, come on. We had'em at 18, 12, right where we wanted them. What are you doing? Well, Jay, you know what I remember about that? Like, we're, we're like, uh, we're at the airport and everybody, like all the Syracuse people, like, wow, you guys played tremendous. Like, what? You know, you lose my, we lost my eight golf. The people are like, I can't believe you guys. You guys really gave them a run. I mean, seriously, that's like, it was like, it was unbelievable. That's how good you guys were. You lose my eight, it's so you lose my eight and it's a moral victory. And you Right, and you were that good. You win the national title game 21 to nine. That's how good that team was. That's why I think, like I said, that was the perfect ball on the package. Like, what a nice piece of work. See you later. Right, right. Well, that's always my argument for the greatest team of all, you know, all time. Yeah. Yeah. How about if we, how about if we transition to. J m l and let's do that. All right, everyone. Let's talk about greatness. When people debate the greatest division one lacrosse teams ever, it's not just about who won the most games, it's about how they did it and what kind of standard they set. Take Maryland in 2022. We just had Coach Logan Wizowski on the program speaking about his experiences. He was on that team. They went 18 and oh, perfect. Every time they stepped on the field, they dominated. Same with Johns Hopkins in 2005, undefeated, hard-nosed, and they finished with a dramatic championship win. And UVA did the very same thing the very next year under our former coach and good friend Dom Storia in 2006. But they did it with an overpowering offense.. All three of those teams showed greatness through perfection. Now you've got the dynasties. We've been discussing Syracuse in the late eighties with the Gate Brothers. They literally revolutionized the game. Three straight championships dog. Steve and I know from experience,'cause we played them every year, they were fast-paced, fearless, and creative. Princeton in the late nineties. Under yet another guest of the show coach Bill Tierney Princeton, and Coach Tierney won six titles in 10 years by being disciplined, precise, and relentless on defense. That's greatness through sustained excellence, and more recently, look at Duke in 2013 or Virginia in 2019. Those teams weren't undefeated, but. What made them legendary was their resilience. Duke found ways to win close games and peak at the right time. Two time guests of the show, Lars, Tiffany's, Virginia, in 2019 pulled off comeback after comeback nine. In total. A lot of those games there were losing by six or seven goals, and they won those games and seven of those games They won them in overtime. Why? Because they never quit no matter what the scoreboard said. That's greatness through heart and belief. So here's the lesson we can take from all this. Greatness doesn't look just one way. Sometimes it's dominance, sometimes it's discipline, sometimes it's grit. But every one of those teams had the same core truth. Every player bought in gave their best effort and put the team above themselves. You wanna be remembered. You wanna chase greatness. Then do what those teams did. Buy in, compete every day. Don't wait for someone else to carry you. Be the guy who raises the standard. That's what turns a good team into one. People talk about for years and years to come. Stay on track everyone. No falling off the rails. speaking of no guardrails that so many of our listeners describe the college lacrosse recruiting trail. So we've responded by putting excerpts of our 10 best interviews with legendary coaches, such as bill Tierney, Lars, Tiffany and Andy towers. Into a book that you can access on Kindle, it is available on Amazon, under the title inside the recruiting game insights from college lacrosse coaches. Now we will return to our interview well, Maddy, we, we could, uh, we could obviously talk about these su memories forever, but you know, obviously your. You know, most of your, it's funny, right? Most of your life in the game now has been refereeing. Refereeing. I know. Like, and so three 30 plus years, kids in the PLL don't even know, I don't think I played. I love it. You played a few games. You're just a guy who doesn't take shit from anybody on the fair. I love your demeanor. Um, it's amazing. But Maddie, you talked about, like, it was your dad who actually got you into ref reffing, right? Yeah. In college, in, in basketball. But talk about, you know, post-college and how you got Sure. More and more engaged in the officiating and how,'cause you, you clearly officiate with the same passion you played with. So how did, how did officiating become such a passion for you? Sure. So the, you know, the, the, the quickest answer is it fit, like, so I. You know, got bit by the officiating bug via basketball. I'd never ref a lacrosse game. Yeah. Before I left college. So I ref four years of basketball and now I got that little Adrenaline Jones. I'm doing like high school champ, you know, like packed little gym and, and I'm like, this works for me man. It's, it's a zippity bang, boom. I can, you know, do my thing, thing that coach thinks he's hot shit. He's yelling at me. Hey, zip it. Right. I know the rule. Right. For you And also for, for a kid growing up, it's, and I got my son going on it too, a little bit. It was about money, right? Yeah. I'm, I'm, yeah. So I'd leave my campus or my, yeah. Apartment at SU or whatever it was. And go ref city wreck Ball in 19 87, 18 bucks a game. Come back with 36 bucks. Right. You know what you could do for a week with 36 bucks and you know Marshall Street? Uh, yeah. You know, so it was really money driven in a way, and then adrenaline driven. And then when I got done in, uh, playing at, at Syracuse, it wasn't, obviously there was no pro stuff and there was not a huge club scene around here, especially for, you know, as far as club lacrosse. So, and Walt Munsey back to the All American lacrosse camp, my mentor, he recruited me right away.'cause he was actually a basketball coach and had seen me rough basketball. He goes, boy, you're doing a good job of the sport. You know nothing about, why don't you try this one? You actually understand lacrosse, why, you know, he was, well those guys. So that's how the ball got rolling. And also with lacrosse, we didn't have guys like me guys, a division one player that played and played in national championships and that kind of stuff. So. They wanted to see me do well, so I was given opportunity, you know what I mean? They're mm-hmm. Like this is a guy we gotta bring along. He's into it. Right. And he played and Right. We all know as lacrosse players, we used to get all these guys that didn't play and didn't understand. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. So, so Walt Munsey is the one that grabbed me and said, let's go. You know? Yeah. This is, you're gonna love the, so I'm now in my 37th, eighth year of, I think 39th year of basketball, 35th year of lacrosse, unbeliev. And I've been all over the world and Yeah. And roughed every fricking game under the sun. And just so rewarding, so lucky. Um, the places I've been and the things I've seen and the people I've met is, is number one. Um, it's just been an unbel and, and to be on the ground level. You know, the first MLL game se, you know, seasons in 2001. I'm a young Buck referee and I'm down at the Bridgeport Barrage and I'm roughing, guys like Pat McCabe and Gary Gate, who I played with that was interesting. Yeah. For a couple years. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, you know, I've been in pro lacrosse for 25 years, which blows me away when I think of that 25 years at M-L-L-P-L-L and watching it become a real, watching it go from like a glorified beer league to Yeah. Right. These dudes show up and don't let Chris fake run you over. You're gonna know that. Right. He's in pretty good shape, you know? Right. Um, so. Hey, Maddie. Talk about just Yeah, yeah. Sorry. No, it's just, it, it, it, it, it's chicken soup for my soul is what it's become, and it keeps, keeps me moving. That's awesome. I'm 57 and I run 15 miles every weekend that I go do that PLL stuff, you know, and it keeps me young and it, again, it's chicken soup for the soul, man. Not a lot of people can do it. It feeds you, it, it's, you know, I'm not sitting in front of a computer all day. I'm Right. You know, one thing I always wonder too, because in this age of replays, like, I'm amazed how many times at the pro, let's say football level, watch a lot of football in America and in lacrosse for sure. Like how good the ref's eyes are. Like, do you, did you, does I mean, that's gotta be an acquired skill because I stand there, my son played lacrosse and I'm on the sideline and I'm like. You know, you think you're seeing one thing, you know, as, as the average Joe, like myself, but you see the replay and the ref nine times outta 10. I find the ref is seeing something that happens so fast. Like does that happen? Like your eyes get so good at this or what's your comment on that? Like sometimes you look at the replay, do you say to yourself, holy cow, I got that one right. That happened in like a split second. Come on there is, alright. I'm right. It's funny you say that. The, the, uh, I think more to, to answer your question, I think the bigger thing is as you get more experience, you get yourself to the right spots to see things, right? Mm-hmm. If you're out of position, and that doesn't necessarily mean you're not keeping up with the play, but you're not, you know, like when I have a shooter on the opposite side of the cage coming at me, I'm going to kind of drift up on top of the go get top side and watch. So I can see the front if and, and if, if the shooter's my side, I'm gonna drift back. So I always want to have space. In between offense and defense. I don't wanna look through somebody's back. You're guessing if you're looking, if, if I'm reading the name on the back of the jersey, I'm guessing about what's going on out front. So to keep moving. And I learned that in basketball, you're always wanna look in between players. You don't wanna look like this. So, you know, that's something I think that is more, uh, the refs that get good at that, that,'cause you know, when we all go watch replay, it's easy to ref, you know, as, as I Right. I said one, I'm pretty good at watching tv. Right, right. Be because you have the proper look. So that's the whole thing. Live. Getting yourself. And it's anticipating the game. Knowing the game. And sometimes the game is unpredictable and it surprises you and you get a shitty look at it and you miss it. And that's gonna happen every game. Mm-hmm. You know, one thing people realize about lacrosse, like at, at Le Moines, my, my buddy Dan Sheen, who coaches here, he said, and he loves to break my balls every Monday morning when I come in, you know about the, the weekends action. But yeah, he, he picks all the ones he got. Right. I'm sure he starts with, I like Coach Tierney does. Yeah. Right. But he'll say, he'll say, you know, they won six national championships here, division two. And, uh, nice. And uh, he, he'll say to me, he goes, we won one of them by your goal. After you dig through the film, we were in the crease three times, so I think over the years, yeah. People have no idea how we just have so much better equipment we can see it. Yeah. Yeah. Back then, you know, the film was grainy that this, you know, you didn't have the zoom looks and all that, and you just Right. You know, which, there's something kind of pure about that too. Right. Games of, you know, a game is about drop balls and turnovers and recoveries, and we got screwed by the ref. Oh, the ref gave, people have very short memories about the ones that go their way, right. With the refs. Yeah. But the boy do, they remember all the times they got screwed. And, uh, but, but again, in all seriousness, you know, throwing replay away, you know, the, the, the devil's, the other side of the, the coin, so to speak, of replay is, you know, if we didn't have such great technology. That would still be what a game is. Right? A mistake. A mistake. Oh, we got a break, we got screwed. We, you know. Right, right. Oh, shit. That's the game. Right, right, right. So, and of course we're never gonna get back to that because, you know, the, the beauty of it today is we, as you drive home, you know you got it right. You know, like, like, like, you know, back, I was the kind of the poster child for replay. I talk about all the time that Duke time state game that I was reffing kids sports. Hey, we were not gonna bring that up, Maddie. I just want you, no, I not gonna bring, don't fine bringing it up because everybody that's listening to this would've missed it too. Or they would've guessed one way or the other. And again, we have no replay. And you wanna talk about feeling, I mean, I'm crying on Jeff Tam's shoulder underneath the stadium. That's how I mean, oh gosh. You think we feel good about something like that? Oh, and it was just a case of you. You didn't, you couldn't see it. Couldn't see it. Someone blocked your vision or whatever. Something like that. And again, he, he, he, uh, Jared Lebanon came around Yeah. There. And he had a defense on his back. Yeah. Right. Right. And a goalie, and I'm right behind him. And the ref across the way had a player cutting right in front, you know, so it was just blocked timing. Yeah. Yeah. And nobody did anything wrong. Right. I mean, couldn't see nobody. It's three guys on the field. You can't see everything. I mean, it's just, it's ridiculous to think you could, when, you know, the worst thing you can do in that situation is try to be your hero and make some call that you're not sure about. Right. So the, the only thing that would've been worse than what happened would be taking that goal away and then finding out. It was good. Yeah, that exactly would've been the death of me, right? I mean, I would've Right. Just, so even after all these years, it's still, I mean, you know, as a, as a coach, coaching travel across, like, it would just kill me when we would lose a game, when I knew I should have done something different as the coach. Exactly. Little kids. And literally, I mean, I was running, I was a foot and ankle doctor running my own practice, two offices, but like, something like that would happen and I would like you go into a spiral. I'm like, dude, just relax. The kids are in fricking fourth grade. Stop it. But here, I mean, you know, obviously you're at the national championship, it's a little different, but was in, but after all these, it still is like, it's awful. Yeah. Huh. Its, and you know what? It's, but it's the other thing. The other thing is, you know what, it's in my folder. I got a big ass folder and that's in there too. And that's cool. This is not fun. This is not easy. Well, it changed the sport too. Right. Yeah. Right. It totally changed the sport. It's like you, we've got the best refs in the world and something like that's gonna happen. So what could we do to support them? And let's get it right. Here comes the review. Let's get it right, get right. And, and, and for that, I love replay. I just ho we gotta keep it in a place where we're not looking at an out of bounds play in the first quarter. Right? Like Paul, you know what I mean? Let's, let's get the shit that matters down the stretch. Yeah. And what about Coach Tierney? We had Coach Tierney on, um, as a guest. We were lucky enough for that Great guy, but I, he does get on the refs, like he's a nut with the refs. Absolutely. And I love you, like the nicest guy off the field. And then on the field, he is like a crazy man for your, for if you're his opponent, which we were. Or the raft, right? Oh yeah. No, you're accurate. He, he is, I think, you know, uh, away from a game, I'd pick up the phone and call him for anything. I, I, I love the guy and when those two hours are going on, stay away. Minnesota, we had some todos. I mean, we were, you know, play, play off lacrosse. He's in a one goal game. Yeah, right. Just let's just say he's still got his fastball. Yeah. So we've got that scout and he's like, yeah, yeah. What about that? Yeah, he's just the, one of the, it could be the most intense competitor, you know, to ever do it. Yeah. And, uh. And, you know, it's sort of, I can say the same thing about myself. It is what it is. I am who I am. I mean, I'm not changing, nor is he. Yeah. Yeah. And, and nor, you know, nor if we were all the same, that'd be boring. Right, right. Hey, Maddie, could we go back to, you were mentioning a little while ago about the, the reffing being Chicken Soup for your Soul, and you were talking about the Yeah. Adrenaline. And, you know, Jay and I, we've, we've been competitors putting on the uniform, but we've never put on the stripes. So can you compare, what is it like that feeling you get from, as a player? To when it's a big game as a referee? Like is it the kind feeling, is it a little nerve wracking too? It kind of, or what? It's similar. It, it is very similar and I always say to people the great greatest thing about, you know, ing at 57 years old, I still have a game day, you know, as a coach does when he's doing it. Little different in that I'm on the field, right. I'm, I'm between the lines of, of, of this, which is very exhilarating. And, uh, the other funny thing I talk about a lot, like, the fields today are so beautiful. It's so nice to be out on those, right, right. Versus you're, you're not gonna blow out an ankle on a rut. Yeah. We've seen, we've seen some clips from high school in 85, 86, they show up on Facebook every now in the field, there's no grass. Right, right. Couple pebbles, a lot of dirt. Beautiful, beautiful field. So, you know, so lucky to still have a game day. Um, you know, to have had the chance to play in, in refereeing national championship games. That kind of stuff is just. So, so much fun and, and, and so lucky and grateful and all those things that, you know, uh, you know, to stay healthy and to do something I love. And, and my boy's a junior at Albany, I was gonna choke up what I talked about, but to see him get his bite of the apple now Right. And love it, that's awesome. And play well and do the right things and do well in school, you know? That's awesome. Because my dad and I, he passed different things onto me, but not lacrosse. Right. But my life in this game and the relationships I have, and for him now to have his turn, just phenomenal. Yeah. That's awesome. Mad beautiful. As two, as two dads, we can get, we can, we can appreciate that, man. That is so, yeah. So great. Um, totally. Hey, what, what, you know, you were talking about the memories you have of those championship games as a player. What, what are the memories that come forward as a ref from those biggest games you've roughed and I don't even know how to quantify. Yeah. I mean, there's so many of them in your portfolio, right? But what, what, what are those, you know, like we all get together with your guys. You instantly go back to that game. It's like you're there. We're all describing that. Absolutely. What, how, what's the, what's the equivalent on the rough side? Right? And then I would just throw in too, into the question of like, so you gotta be somewhat detached and a little bit in awe of some of these games you get to watch. Just be like, holy cow, these, these two teams. And you gotta remember that you're ing keep pun, right? Don't forget you're refereeing. You just start watching the game. Like, holy shit, this is just a spectacle. This is amazing. Exactly. Um, you know, uh. God, that's a great question. I, I, well, let me throw out a few,'cause I think you were the Carolina, Maryland, so Carolina 1, 20 16, is that one that pops into mind? So 20, that one's a huge one in that. So I was ing with one of my best buddies, Scott McCall, who's an old West Genee guy who played at Ithaca College. And I've actually, he's a few, couple, you know, four or five years behind me. And so I've had the chance to sort of mentor him in the officiating and now, yeah, that was his first title game. I'm, I'm in charge, you know, Hey, isn't this great? So the game goes, uh, and, and we're gonna head to overtime and, and I'm at one end of the field and Scott McCall is the, the, the team's gonna like cheap it down there with two seconds to go. And Scott McCall is at the Maryland defensive end and you know, the ball goes up. Flying horn goes off. I'm like, all right. Overtime I look down and there's a flag laying on the ground down there and I'm like, nah, that had to fall out of his pants or something. And if we can't have a flag right now, okay, game over flag on the ground, which means somebody's gonna start with the ball. Yeah. And man up in ot. So I'm like, huh. And I have no idea what went on down there. Yeah. I know what I'm jogging down. Right, right. And I get this look on my, he comes at me, I go, this better be good. Right. It was funny because that was a question, sorry to interrupt that I always think like, do you say to yourself like, all right, this is the national title game. There's two minutes left. Like it has gotta be the slash from hell if we're gonna throw a flag. Is that part of your mindset? So if you remember this, if you remember this play. This is, I do remember it. Okay. Luke Gold stock, I'll never forget the kid's name. Yeah. From J North. Happened for Carolina. Yeah. And they actually end up, which was, thank God for us, they had a like a gold cam, right? Looking Yeah. At these two kids. So there's a Def Luke Gold stock and whatever defenseman is guarding them for Maryland Wax gold stock. They're cheap. They're, they're cheap in the ball, down the field with one second to go on the national title game. And you can tell that the defenseman, you know, says something, or you know, they're, whatever. They're jostling, but nothing you're gonna call with one second to go on the title game. Luke Gold Stock's response was to cross check him in the nuts, you know, crushed like, yeah. And what, what, what always upset me about that play was. You know, so we put a man up and, and thank God the, the Maryland gear, the Carolina kid makes a save. And the best part about it was they ended up whacking somebody in the head at the other end. So now Carolina goes man up and Exactly. That's what they want. But let's back up for a second. Yeah. What, what always pissed me off about that play was nobody, nobody Nobody. nobody, Nobody what? What pissed you off? MP or can I call you P Dog to find out the answer to both those intriguing questions? Tune in next week. Until we meet again. Here's to hoping you find the twine. We're signing off here at the get the lax scoop. Thanks again so much. We will see you the next time. Nobody. nobody, nobody