Women, AI, and the Gap We Need to Close

Overthinking isn't a liability — it might just be your greatest edge as a product leader. 

In celebration of women's history month, Vidya Dinamani and Heather Samarin sit down with Carmen Palmer, CEO of Women in Product and a veteran CPO with 20 years in the industry. 

Carmen makes the case for why women's "overthinking" is a competitive edge, argues product management isn't going anywhere, and issues a sharp call to action: get in on AI now, before the gap widens. 

She also unpacks the power of the personal board and what Women in Product has planned for 2026. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

What is going to help us? I think a lot of it is like the empathy and the thinking about the customers and the points of view and everything that we do when we're building products. I think that whether you like it or not, your points of view and your values inherently are built into the things that you build. So we wanna be able to be representative of the customers who are using the products. And I think that is a very unique skill set, especially in this time where we're looking at ethics and sustainability and accessibility of our products and who we're building for.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Welcome, Carmen. We're so excited to have you here. Thank you, Heather. So great to be here with Product Rebels. And this month is women's month, right? We're celebrating women. And we're just excited to have you on the show. We're going to talk about women and product and the state of women and product. But I do want to start with our first question that we always ask, which is what does product rebel or being a product rebel mean to you?

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Yeah, I love that question because I when I think about what is a product rebel, I almost in essence, if you're a product leader, you're a product manager, you almost by definition have to be a rebel. You have to be willing to challenge assumptions, you have to be willing to look at systems and not necessarily take them for what they're worth, but to look at what is behind that. And oftentimes when we're looking at our ICPs, the customers that we're solving for, there's a lot of constraints that we think about as product leaders. So in a way, you're challenging what is the obvious answer a lot of times.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Ah, love that response. And this is going to be such a fun conversation because not only are we excited to talk with you, but also in your role as CEO of WIP, which I'm going to refer to because I'm going to also talk about us as women in product. And you talk to so many women in product. I we're proud to have you represent us. So go Carmen. We'll try and differentiate those two things. But I think specifically as women in product, sometimes that challenge, and sometimes that challenge in terms of being a rebel, is always not as straightforward. Maybe you could just give us an example of a time that you personally, before we start talking more openly and generally about the status of women in product and where we're going, maybe just bring it a little bit more personally when you did that challenge and what that looked like for you.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Yeah, definitely. I think that, first of all, I think that this is an important conversation. It's so important for me. I am the CEO of Women in Product, but I am a woman in product. The our mission and what we do, enabling and supporting and showcasing women who are thriving in their roles is really important because I've been in those roles. I've sat at the executive level as a chief product officer and been a leader at large organizations. And it's not always easy to sit in that room and really be the product drum and be product led and challenge, we should take a look at this problem in a different way. There's lots of competing priorities. There's lots of competing goals within the organization, as well as you're competing with other organizations on being the winner in your field. So when we talk about when is a time that I've had to be a product rebel, in a way, in one of my last roles, I was hired to bring together five different organizations into one product portfolio. And it was both a digital transformation role as well as building product teams out. So not only was there just one team to really lead into transformation, bringing in AI and having one sort of product portfolio so that we could create repeatable revenue, but it was all of the different parts. So it's teaching like what does it mean to be product led and not to necessarily be like project or customer-based. When you have to scale to be able to meet more customers, you need to have a core product that will scale, that meets maybe a new set of customers in your portfolio. In terms of being a product rebel, I would say that there's a few different things. Number one is like having to challenge the other C-suite folks, whether it's the head of sales or my amazing partner, CTO, and how do we actually approach those problems? And oftentimes the rebel part sometimes have to has to come from not just like falling into line, but also challenging your own self in the way that you approach problems. So I would almost say maybe this is a little esoteric, but a lot of the rebel sometimes has to be against yourself. Like sometimes it's very easy to say, how do we work together to reduce the most conflict and get to the right answer? Right. So almost like having that challenge and being open to have those discussions and being uncomfortable is what I really found is the best way to get the answer. I think was a great way to navigate that like product and tech problem to get to the answer that we wanted.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Love it. I think we we all agree, right? It's it's about collaboration, it's about listening, it's about challenging your own thinking. Everything you said, I think is right on. Can you talk a little bit about some of the unique strengths that maybe women leaders have that they can leverage in those big transformations, those big tough sort of cross-functional change management initiatives that we all find fairly challenging, right? These are tough times when you're trying to change the hearts and minds of large organizations. What are some of the strengths that as a woman that we can leverage in being able to do that effectively?

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Yeah, I love that question. Very recently, I was talking to someone and they were talking about how oftentimes it's considered a bad thing for to be an overthinker. And I would say, like many women might like myself or have maybe have been called, oh, you're overthinking and you're overthinking. That's true. And I think a different way to look at that is that that overthinking is about trying to see around the corner, trying to think about all of the different possibilities and sometimes the things that are gonna go wrong because we're trying to de-risk. I'm sure that there's a study, and I'm sure that there's like papers on this about how many threads you can actually manage at a time, and also how women, I think very uniquely, are looking at a big picture because we have these threads to look at what is happening, what are all the different things that are happening and that can influence each other, that can influence what that outcome that you're looking for is. So are you calling us a bunch of worry warts, Carmen? I mean it, yes, however, I can call us worry warts because I would say that people around us who like value that worry warding. Like I think a lot of the times, like okay, if I just take it away not from product, but just in general in terms of planning, if I'm planning, I have to manage my son's college tour to Connecticut. I also have to manage my dogs. Also, my mother-in-law fell and we need to help her. And I also have my work schedule and oh, also like I have a pickleball tournament and I have all so yes, it sounds like scheduling, but a lot of it is like, how do you make it all fit? And I think that women, I always say women uniquely have this capacity to do all of those things and keep it together. If you think about it like managing a household or managing your product suite or managing whatever that is, that overthinking is actually a skill. You have to keep it in check, right? You can't like over worry because you also then can't be overly risk averse. You need the ability to be able to think about those things, but then take that risk, especially now in a space where, and I know we'll get to AI, but especially now in a space where things are moving so fast and we don't necessarily know the answer. We're gonna have to do a lot of trial and error. We're gonna have to do a lot of fail fast and move forward.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Yeah. No, I think it's so interesting how you're giving people permission to do something that it feels kind of, I think to a lot of women very natural, think about lots of potential. And you're right. I think that sort of like you're overthinking it, I'm sure has been it's very familiar to people listening to this right now. I want to pull back because I think you're absolutely right in terms of the change. And we'll again, well, before we talk about AI specifically, there's been so many headwinds for everyone in product over the last year. We've been dealing with is product management even a job, by the way, absolutely, and the most one a really important one. What's happening, people losing roles? There's so many headwinds. I would love for you to give us a lens of what you're hearing because you again talk to so many women out there in different types of positions, different levels. Tell us what you're hearing and what you feel good about and what is concerning you.

SPEAKER_03 9:05

Yeah, definitely. And I that's such a theme of I think what we're looking at within the organization, the community. Is PM a job? What is the role? How is it evolving? Is it even a role? Are we even going from product manager to builder? Is it product manager even the right name of the role today? Before I jump into that, I think I have a different answer at different levels, I might say. But I think the common piece is yes, PM, whatever the name of it, is going to be a job. Somebody who determines the what we're going to build and what are the features, who are we solving for? Who is the who is your target customer? How do we reach that target customer? What is that experience that you want to create? All of those things are still going to be a job. I think the question is like, what are the key tools and what is the knowledge that you're going to need to have to do that? So I would say, like, if I say in a traditional product role, I mean not to age myself, but I've been, I've been in product for it's in the space for about 20 years. So I have been in the space where you build the inch and a half thick PRD and you review it with all the constituents, you have all the sections, all those components, you get it approved, you go through all that and you start building. But there's that thinking in back in those days, like you had to think around the corner still because you knew that by there's a process in building all this. But now, really fast forward, you that thinking can be accelerated. That thinking can be checked by being able to use the tools that are at hand. So if we sit think about is PMA job, yes, the core job, I think, and what you're trying to accomplish is the same. The how you do it and the tools that you use to do it are going to be different. And the skill sets that you're going to need are going to need to evolve. I would say that a lot of the things that I would say were not my favorite thing to do. Like I didn't really love writing acceptance criteria. You can have tools that help you with that, and then you can review. And then there are also tools that help you review the review.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

I want to go back to the what do you feel good about? Are people feeling this out there? Because we talk to a lot of product leaders, and I think you have such a range, again, of constituents that you listen to. So do people feel good out there? What are you hearing? What are you like consoling people over? What's keeping them at night? So curious as to more general take on what is the noise out there?

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Yes. So I would say that there's definitely a group of folks who are very excited about the tools and what it enables them to do. Because, as I said, like the things that you as a product leader that you get really excited about, what are the problems to solve and how do you do that? And how do you get to market can be accelerated. I think that it is a lot also dependent on like the size of company and the culture of the company that you're at. I was just speaking to someone who I used to mentor, and she I am so proud of her. She's like a lead AI product leader, and she's thrown into the mix and says, and she's been there for two weeks, and she says, I'm having imposter syndrome right now. Everybody knows how to do this, they're doing it faster. I don't know if I can do that. And I said, Listen, you were hired because you have the product chops. So yes, you're gonna have a little bit of a learning curve to get in there, but you're AI certified, you've done product management. This is not like new, it's gonna be hard and uncomfortable. But once you get there and you start using those tools, then you like what you were hired for to actually understand who's your customer and what's the market and how do you address them and what's your MVP and what is your roadmap, those types of things, you'll be able to accelerate and get that flow. I think there are folks, if you talk to executives and leaders, I think that they see the potential at scale and what it can do. But at the same time, organizations, when you adopt any kind of tool, anyone who's implemented new systems in an organization or even new processes, sometimes there's going to need to be in a very large organization of how do you incorporate these new tools and these new ways of working?

SPEAKER_02 13:13

Can you talk a little bit about are there unique challenges that maybe we should talk about as women that we can support each other in that might help us make this transition over? I belong to a couple women developing AI, great organization, super supportive group of women just learning together and feeling comfortable in our space of learning. So talk to us a little bit about what you are, what you're hearing out there that might be some strengths or unique challenges that women are facing that maybe we can talk about.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

Absolutely. So I would say that one of the challenges, and this came about our conference this last fall, was that our call to action was really jump in and get out there and learn. Like you should have FOMO right now about AI. And now isn't a very important time to jump in because it's not like everybody knows everything there is to know about AI. Sure, there are folks who are more ahead. There are some companies that are more ahead in terms of implementing it. But in general, if you look at like any kind of technological advancement that's happened, like right now is a time to jump in. Women can jump in the ground level and ensure that we're not creating like a larger gap between the skill sets. So I think that maybe it's not unique to women in general, but it's unique to the time that we can actually close some of the gap if people together are like upskilling and learning. And I think that the unique part too is that Women Defining AI is an amazing organization that we're going to be partnering with. They really started out as hey, I want to learn this, but I want to learn it with other people. It's hard to do some of these things on your own. And it's important, like when you're learning, like having an environment where you can bounce things off of each other in a supportive environment where it's not scary. It's important to bring us all together. Women defining AI, like Helen Cup is like the leader of that. And she and I were just saying, hey, Carmen, like how can we do two plus two equals seven? Because this is a time where we can maybe close that gap and be able to get more women in the mix. You had asked me this before about what is uniquely women, what is going to help us. I think a lot of it is like the empathy and the thinking about the customers and the points of view and everything that we do when we're building products. I think that whether you like it or not, your points of view and your values inherently are built into the things that you build. So we want to be able to be representative of the people who are the customers who are using the products. And I think that is a very unique skill set, especially in this time when we're looking at ethics and sustainability and accessibility of our products and who we're building for.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

I really love that sort of call to action because it can feel for some people out there that, oh my gosh, I'm already behind. And and it feels daunting. There's so much to learn, it's changing daily. And your call to say, look, get in there, have that foam FOMO, but get started and then do it with other people. I think it's just really a powerful state that I hope everyone takes to heart. Not just women out there, but everyone. Because getting in there, rolling the sleeves out, when I first started, got back to coding about eight months ago, I was like, oh my gosh, it's like it's all coming back to me and it's not all good. But that's scary, that's scary feeling where you're back to learning. I think it's so refreshing. It's so much fun. And Heather and I have been doing a lot with product teams, helping them understand how to leverage the right prompts and all the good discipline that we have as a product manager to apply that. And so I think the coarse drink that we have, you talked about the curiosity, the worrying, the thinking, but being able to apply that and just don't wait, don't hesitate, but jump in, I think is really amazing. But if we pull back and I love that partnership, what else is Women in Product, the organization now? What else are you doing for the women out there? I know that you're back last year. It was wonderful to see everyone in person. Tell us what the organization is up to, what your focus for 2026 is. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

We're really excited that we did we had such a great turnout and feedback on bringing the community together. We're going to do that again this year. But in addition, we're really working on more events and programs again to support both not upskilling in AI and but also I think a lot of it too is like mindset. And because it is a learning environment, we have to be able to be comfortable with learning and challenging ourselves and putting ourselves out there and not necessarily wait for others to get there and jump in when we feel like it's ready. I think we need to be jumping in now. So we're really focused on like how can we bring folks to the table to both come together and learn. We have for Women's History Month, we're doing a hackathon. So we can put some information this launches before then we're partnered with Lovable. And so we're gonna be doing some upscaling, and myself and Marilyn Nika will be will be judges. We have some fun and interesting things where we have some women and pro women in product the organization problems that we would love folks to come together and help us solve through AI. So that's that's really exciting. But those are the types of things that we want to really, I think, bring to the table. There's also components of our executive community, like women in product is very much fueled by volunteer as well as the women who have really made it to the higher levels, giving back. Because with all the women who are in those positions, the more that they're able to bring other folks with them or to even just be an example that you can do it is has always been really critical, I think, for our community and our organization. So we do a lot of executive dinners, we're doing a few more. We have what coming up in Austin, and we'll be building something in New York.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Oh my gosh, such great ways to connect with other strong women. I love it. I'd love to hear your thoughts on you're saying jump in with both feet. I think you've got some really great opportunities in women in product. Within or with outside of women in product, are there big thinkers, writers, sources of great information that we can take back to our women in product that are listening to help them feel comfortable jumping in with both feet and starting to learn? And we talked a little bit about women defining AI as a great one, but are there others that you are seeing around that maybe we can give as recommendations to our audience?

SPEAKER_03 20:02

I listen to the to Clairvaux's How I AI. I listened, I I am in like Lenny's chats because those are the areas where you can really point to what is happening. I think they do a good job of being very regular about the guests that they have and what's happening real time. So I listened to both of those podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

There's one thing that you said a couple of times now, and this is probably more generally for any woman listening out there, but it's interesting because you talked about the your personal board. And I remember that I first encountered that when Heather and I actually met many years ago at the women's group, at Intuit. That's how we first connected such a long time ago. Um and look what happened. Ex used. I'm not gonna date us here though. We were on each other's board. We were on each other's boards. And I for anyone who isn't familiar with that, I'd love for you to just give us a brief description because I think that's something that's very uniquely, you know, it's a woman's perspective. It's that community that we talked about before. It's having each other's back. And if you don't have one, please go out and get one because I think it's one of the best things that that has helped me for so many decisions. But would you just share your perspective and maybe tell us who who's on your personal board, Carmen?

SPEAKER_03 21:17

Absolutely. I would say that I might be have a typical story where I worked at Yahoo for almost 12 years. And before that, I was in consulting roles. And I had kept a lot of my professional relationships as friend relationships as well. Over the years, I have collected many on my personal board. At Yahoo, like sometimes you don't network outside of your organization because there are so many great folks within your organization, and that's highly valuable. I don't discount that. Like having those connections like into it and having like women's groups and having your personal boards there are really important. And I think that when I left Yahoo and other folks left Yahoo, they went everywhere else. They went to Meta, they went to Google. They went to Amazon, all the so many different places. And so then my personal board that started out in one place became very diverse. And so the other part is that you have to look outside of your organization, right? Sometimes when it's you need to get a perspective that is outside of what you know and what you're doing. So you can think of different ways of approaching problems. I think that's important. Going back to my personal board, I think I have a, I would say I have a few different groups. I have a group that of women from Yahoo that we've all gone to different places and we're actually all actually in different roles. So some folks are product role product leaders, and some folks I have someone who's now like a VC. She runs her own fun. I have CMO, and then someone who's moved into building her own sort of like media company. So it's very diverse in that group, and we get together as friends, but we're able to leverage one each other's networks and connect each other. It also feels very safe. We've gone through lots of battles together, and now we're fighting our own. So we come back together for that. But it's not just that group. There are also like I was I did never search alone. I don't know if you're familiar with, you know, being here. Yeah. Yes, of course. I think there is an exercise there where you're going out and you're networking, you're doing, you're asking people in a way who you've worked with for help and to tell you to have them tell you what they remember about you, things like that. And I still keep a lot of those folks. And they may not be somebody that you know I see all the time, but they are someone who has said, hey, if you need it, something from me, please reach out. I have a handful of folks for like that. And as both men and women, I think it's important to have diversity in your personal board and you leverage them. It's like your hall of justice. Like which superpower do I need and who can I reach out to? And I think that the flip side of that is that I love helping people. So I think I'm on so many people's personal boards that you can call me and I will connect you to really to help people out. Because I think that what ultimately we want in our roles, we want folks to be building the best products. We want people to be thriving in their careers. Nobody wants it to be hard for other people. So I think that in addition to building your own personal board, you also sit and serve on other people's personal boards. And that makes those relationships quite rich and very valuable.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

That's awesome. A personal board is hugely recommended. I think we we talk about it all the time. Carmen, thank you so much for your time. It's been super helpful. Great insights and celebrating women's month. We love what you're doing at Women in Product and supporting all of the women out there that are on the front lines and conquering AI and conquering our roles and products. So we really appreciate your time. Thank you for the great advice and insights and your time.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Thank you for having me. And if your listeners are interested in women in product, we're womenpm.org. We have our amazing conference coming up October 1st, and we have lots of programs, events, and a local in-person thing. So please come check us out.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

An incredible community. I hope you all take Carmen's office seriously. Thank you again, Carmen. Thank you, Dave. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Product Rebels Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation and want to learn more from Product Rebels from companies like Netflix, Amplitude, and beyond, please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and join us for another impactful interview in about two weeks.