B&R at the Movies
B&R at the Movies
Episode 163. Marwencol (2010)
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On this episode of B&R at the Movies podcast Berry and Robin watch and discus the 2010 documentary Marwencol. This is the documentary about Mark Hogancamp and his unique method of therapy he came up with for dealing with his trauma. This documentary is directed by Jeff Malmberg. Mark had created a world with his 1/6 scale figures and acts out the lives of everyone in his town called Marwencol and photographs them. This documentary was the inspiration behind the 2018 film Welcome to Marwen staring Steve Carell and directed by Robert Zemeckis.
All right, everybody, welcome back for another episode of BR at the movies podcast. I'm Barry.
SPEAKER_02And I'm Robin.
SPEAKER_00All right. So this week was your choice of film, but I kind of helped you made the decision for you.
SPEAKER_02It was one that I wanted to watch, but I couldn't find it free on YouTube anymore. Right. And Barry actually got it for me. And yeah. And uh well, didn't get it for me. Got him for himself.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. But uh I got it for us.
SPEAKER_02I've seen it once. Yes. And so now, and I I really wanted to share this with you. I just think it's interesting. And it's a documentary and it's called Marwin Marwin Call.
SPEAKER_00Marwin Call.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's actually you think of it three names. Uh Mark, Wendy, and Colleen, I think is like a couple of things. Oh okay.
SPEAKER_00Is that is that what it actually that's what it means?
SPEAKER_02That's what it stands for. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I didn't know that. I thought it was I thought it was like the town name or something.
SPEAKER_02Well, it it well, you'll figure that out when you're watching. Uh but it's Mark Hogankamp, is who it's about. It was made in 2010. It's a documentary. Okay. There was a movie uh made not too long ago with Steve Corell, and it's called Marwin. So not took off the call part.
SPEAKER_00Why why would they I mean I understand like you can't it can't be exactly the same, but I wonder why they shortened it.
SPEAKER_02Because okay, uh Colleen, the character, wasn't in they took her out of the movie, so they took her off the name. But why? Movie choice. I don't know. Weird. Okay. So I have seen both. I've seen the movie. I saw the movie first and then I saw the documentary. And documentaries, I think it's so much better than the movie. And it really it really explains a lot what Mark Hogankamp has gone through and and went through because it was in the early early ish 2000s when he had trauma happen to him. You'll find out in the documentary. Okay. And um, and then kind of how he is helping himself get out, not get out of, but trying to you know become a person again after having this very big trauma happened to him. That makes sense to completely change his life. Um and it's it's interesting, and as you're watching it, you're going, what you do a couple of those. What? Okay. All right, all right. But you know, just hang in there till the end, you know, because it but I think it's it is it really does show like uh somebody who is is going through a lot of who went through a lot of trauma.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02And he he got as much care, medical care as he could, but his benefits ran out. So he was on his own to help heal himself or understand his world and trying to make sense out of the world.
SPEAKER_00Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02And um and they and you know, and he did. And um he's still around. Okay. Very cool. And I because I looked him up not too long ago. And um it's it's really interesting just kind of what he does and how he does it and kind of what happens to him. Um through that. So that is kind of like a not a very specific thing to say.
SPEAKER_00Well, but but we this is this is always the problem we we run into where it's like we want to talk about it, but we don't want to give anything away. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'd like you to kind of experience it just kind of what is happening and on why it's happening.
SPEAKER_00So there's the the limited knowledge I have about it is that I know that he has um toys and figures that he sets up in in a a world in his mind and then kind of like go and kind of like goes. And he's created this created this world.
SPEAKER_02And he takes photographs. Right, and he's a uh takes a mazillion photographs.
SPEAKER_00So that's that's pretty much the extent of like what I what I know about. And that's pretty much just from um the trailers for the Steve Carell film, and then uh just knowledge of of what you know what this what what it's actually.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so but I think uh when I saw the Steve Carell film, because I saw it first, I thought, oh, okay, that's interesting. It really didn't get right down to it, like the reality of it all. The documentary gives you the whole reality of the whole picture.
SPEAKER_00Gotcha. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I don't think the film does. It's a film's fine, and I love Steve Carell. Um, and I think he's just fine in the film. Yeah, but uh this really f explains some of what was happening in the film. The film isn't explaining enough. The documentary explains everything, and you totally understand. And it some of it is kind of dark and some of it kind of different, and you just kind of wonder. Um, but it's uh but it I I think it's a very good documentary. So I'm really glad that we get to watch it together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So before we were gonna watch this, um, it was several weeks ago, and then we tried to find it um on on YouTube, and then um we weren't able to find the the actual film. Right. We were finding like um somewhere like little clips, or there was like other there's trailers for it. Yeah, and then there was like uh like reaction videos and stuff. Right, right. And um, so then we we shelved it, and then um so I was online going through my list of films that I've been on the hunt for for a while, and this was one I put on the list of like, oh, so if I come across it, you know, at a used DVD store or something. And then I was like, well, I'll just check and see if I can if it's online, and I found it, and it was at it was very cheap, it was a very good price too. So I was like, oh, well, okay, well bye. So bought it, didn't tell you about it.
SPEAKER_02No, and I was like it was like a complete surprise.
SPEAKER_00Let it let it be a surprise. And then so I I got it, and then I was like, I'm like, oh, should I spring it on you as like like right before we're getting ready to do one of my picks and then just go like okay, here it is, you know, and that's like so I decided not to do that. Oh I love it.
SPEAKER_02That this is technically my pick.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Well, and that's another one.
SPEAKER_02Because I've seen it and you have it.
SPEAKER_00Right, and that was it, and it was it was your pick from before when we were doing it, and then we had to just we had to shift and do and do something else, which happens, yeah, which which does happen. So I was very I was very, very happy about it, and it's it looks like it's in good condition. So hopefully it'll play it it plays with no problem or because you didn't even watch it, didn't even watch it. Yep, I got it, and then I was like purposely just set it aside and then waited, and then that way we could watch it today.
SPEAKER_02So great, okay. All right, all right. Well, I think we should watch it.
SPEAKER_00We should dive in. All right, so we are gonna go ahead and watch Marwan Call, and then we will come back a little bit and talk about it. Okay, all right, we will be back in a little while. All right, everybody, welcome back. We just got done watching Marwan Call. And since this was my first time seeing it, yeah, I will take us away on this one. Okay. Uh, I thought it was really interesting. Um uh this whole world that uh that Mark created. Um it's it's kind of it's kind of weird where he kind so he kind of dives back and forth between his world and reality, and then it's like a hybrid almost like his brain is like in between both of them simultaneously.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00Um and then he at one point he slipped a little bit and kind of called um his world a movie.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so I was thinking, I was like, that that kind of makes a little more sense to me to think of it like that.
SPEAKER_02Like he is telling a story.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02You know, there are the it's a lot of stories going on in his head, and that's what he's depicting with the film.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02So but he's not making a film, he's doing still photographs, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, so I thought as far as the documentary goes, it was very interesting, very um because it's such a such a unique um world. And you're it's like, okay, well, how do you how do you display it? How do you show it? You know, do you do it only from the work and only from the the stills? And you know, you don't show Mark himself, you know, and have it just be like almost like his alter ego is kind of like narrating it, you know, or kind of something like that.
SPEAKER_02You know, yeah, that could have been a choice.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that could have been a way to go. Um so as a as a documentary, it's pretty interesting where because it's like you're you're documenting what he's doing, and then so like he's doing the setup and he's doing the getting everything ready for the shot and stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's like you're you're documenting him in his world, in his imagination, yeah, going through it. So it's kind of it's kind of interesting, like the different parallels that are happening all at the same time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and it's I I I th the emotion that he has for what he's doing and how he's feeling, and he is just being super honest about all of it. And and he in uh with him, it's like he he does know why he's doing it. Yes, because it's helping, right? But it's something that is just so deep inside him. But you know, you have to remember before he was attacked, I mean, he was a very good artist. I mean, so he's he had that artful soul.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's tapping into a different different art form.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Uh so it's like, well, that's not really a stretch, really, because if he was that artful before, then to do something like this is yeah, probably, you know, gonna be in him if he'll if he'll bring it out if he can find it.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Because he had to find a whole different medium.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and it was kind of um it was kind of interesting. It was definitely interesting to listen to him talk about after the accident, um, where he so he lost his memories.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then you lose your identity of who you are, of you know, of of you know what you are, what you're all about, and then like having to rediscover himself and figure out like, okay, who was I? Did I like me? Was I good?
SPEAKER_02And it's like right. He had to ask people, like, how was I? How was I? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then he was talking about like, you know, when he he came, he got home from the the accident and found all the shoes, and then was like asking, like, does there a woman that lives here that owns all these shoes? And they go, No, those are you, those are yours. Yeah. And it's and it's kind of interesting. I mean, it's gotta be terrifying where you're just like Yeah, just trying to understand. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh, and like he says, you know, he looks at like the the footage of him at his wedding or photograph, and you know, it's it's a different person. It's right, you know, it he can't really identify with it, even though he knows it's him. But yeah, it's I think it's just kind of I guess when the first time I saw it too, I was like really inspired um to like understand that you know what you have inside you you can you can express, you can you can bring it out and it can it can help you, it can help you, you know, move forward through whatever you've been through. Um yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And I and I think that a lot of people do that through through their own medium of whatever whatever is they're doing. Right. Um, you know, whether it's through through art or photography or writing or whatever, you know, whatever it is that they're doing, yeah, that they get to work through whatever it is that they got going on. And then, you know, he he created this whole world in the one-sixth scale that he was working in, and then that's the world that he created. Well, it's not that different from somebody writing a movie script, you know, and then it's like that's you know, they created the world that they want to inhabit or live in or do whatever in.
SPEAKER_01Right, right.
SPEAKER_00And then that's just the medium that they chose to do it in, you know, and kind of and kind of do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's very it's pretty interesting. Um I it it is kind of it is kind of inter I was finding parallels between Mark and myself, so it was kind of it was kind of funny. Oh well, so he was involved in an accident and had and was had his had have his face rebuilt and was and was in a coma, and I was in a massive accident and had my face rebuilt and was in a coma. So there was an instant parallel to that. Um, I have my degree in photography, um, and that's true. He is a photographer doing this stuff. Um, and it's funny, so the one-sixth scale is a very interesting thing where it's there's a whole um subculture of people who uh collect one-sixth scale figures and stuff, and there's oh really high-end stuff. Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02There because really the quality of what he has, it's like what? And the guns like the pistols like move like they should.
SPEAKER_00So there's many, there's many levels of like you can go from like really inexpensive to extremely expensive. Like there's some where they have the figure and have the eyes, and you have this little pen that has a magnet on the end, and you can move the move the eyeballs to like the angles that you want to that you want to do.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, that's crazy. Yeah, oh my god.
SPEAKER_00So I so uh quite a while ago, I had um I put together a John uh John McLean uh one sixth scale figure.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So from back in the day. So it's kind of funny. Now I don't go I even gone, I don't go to the degree of what Mark did of anything like living as in this whole world. For me, it was just it was just kind of fun. It was kind of fun like, oh, you just pus piecing it together and just kind of uh creating a creating a figure. And there's like many groups on on Facebook for one six scale figures and stuff, and there's the the there's um a comp there's a a brand called Hot Toys, and they specialize in high-end figures. Like these figures, they start on the low 100s and go up to thousands. And they are some of these are just insane. Like you can actually do like full movie setups with these figures, like it's it's absolutely insane with what you can what you can do with it. It's amazing. So yeah, so it's this it's this whole thing. Yeah, um, he with Mark, he kind of doesn't go to that degree of like no of his figures.
SPEAKER_02Of course, this was back, you know, a while back.
SPEAKER_00Um a little ways back, but not not not super far off.
SPEAKER_02And what I liked is that he made the figures of people he knew.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah, he was yeah, he was.
SPEAKER_02He put himself in there. Yeah. He was there, but then he put in figures that he knew. It was just he was very connected to it. And I think they talked a little bit about that, how someone said, yeah, it's not like it's not like campy or kind of you know humorous. Right. It's it's very real and it's a very extremely group. He is deeply into his photography, uh into the the photographs that he takes. Right. Um, he is definitely just part of it. And that's so uh I I will tell you before we go too far, yeah. So, you know, uh back when we were gonna watch this first time, I looked him up again. And you know, he does a website, that sort of thing. He's still uh shooting pictures.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02Um, and um he has had a stroke though. It was a few years back. So that it kind of affected him a little bit. But I what I loved and it was last year, he was having another show.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02It was all pictures of shoes, people in shoes. I'm like, there you go, Mark. That's what that's what I'm talking about. It was all shoes. That's what his that's what the show was gonna be.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, that's funny.
SPEAKER_02And it's like, yeah, that's what he loves. He loves that.
SPEAKER_00So it's you know, it's it's interesting, yeah. The stuff. Um, because like he's saying, he was he was building, he's building this world to go to process um his own his own therapy and stuff of yeah, you know, so he was doing it like like he was saying for the physical therapy side of it of like. Yeah, I mean I never even thought about that, of course.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that would be part of the physical therapy, and then you know, and and I think there is part of a therapy where you are expressing yourself, especially his fears. He's got he had such deep fears of being attacked again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Being hurt about someone coming up behind him, right? Um, which is totally normal, but that's just what he was working out well while he was, you know, doing his photographs.
SPEAKER_00Yep, exactly.
SPEAKER_02And I think that's kind of amazing that he could he could he could be really he just so real with himself, even though it's not a real world. He was being very real with himself about the feelings that he wanted to, he was gonna, you know, go.
SPEAKER_00But um Yeah, even even like his friends were saying, like, you know, if if Mark is not not happy with you, it's gonna come out in in the wor in his world. Yeah, you know, because he's not gonna do anything to you personally, no, but it's gonna sh it's gonna come out in his in his world.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's he does have anger and that sort of thing, and he can he can express his anger or he can express his joy.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02But I I guess I loved it when his alter ego self uh started pulling pulling the the little truck truck and taking the photographs, and I thought, there you go, you just taking it to another level. Right. He just took it to another level.
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02And I thought there you go. Well, and the whole idea uh it's it's such a progression. I because I can't imagine when he first started, I mean he didn't have much.
SPEAKER_00No, no.
SPEAKER_02And when we're watching this, it's like he has so much and so detailed and so much, uh so you know, little, you know, you know, costumes and right, I mean everything. And so I just think, wow, he's really just like built this along, but in the beginning it might have been this must have been so small.
SPEAKER_00Well, they were talking about like, yeah, he with his roommate where he's like, okay, you know, he found like some wood and stuff, and he's like, Yeah, it was like stuff that was laying out in the yard or something, and then he just built it. Built it and built a little little bar out of it.
SPEAKER_02So Yeah, yeah. So it's and I don't know, it's just it is kind of amazing and just kind of I guess it kind of reminded me as I was watching it that, you know, um to express yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, I mean and it I mean, even with him, he was holding back. He was holding back about wanting to wear women's clothes. He wanted to wear women's shoes. And it was very hard for him. And then that one time at the at the show, he did. He was wearing the shoes that he found on. And I I loved his favorite, I love the favorite line that he says fucking man shoes. And you know he hated him, you know he hated him, yeah, but he just couldn't bring himself to just do that and just and be amongst people and and to be because you know, I mean that's where that's what happened when he got attacked. Yeah, and that's because he ex he expressed who he truly was.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. Yeah, and it's gotta be that fear that's built up, you know, where he's you know, he doesn't want to let let people know that side of him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so but I mean to just kind of let you know, and everybody just kind of let go a little bit. Yeah. You don't have to come out of the closet all the way if you don't want to, but you know, just let go a little bit. Just be yourself. Don't be still yeah, just yeah. I mean, if it if it makes you feel good, if it's right for you, you know, and and it is really hard because people criticize and people you know, say things look at you a certain way and stuff like that. But you know, sometimes ev even if you don't do it all the way, right? Just to do a little bit for yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and just stay stay true to yourself and that's what it's for.
SPEAKER_02You it's not for anybody else. Right. Absolutely. And he knows that. He's he's really kind of an intelligent guy.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's you know, it's kind of it it would be interesting though if he like if he took everything, the whole world that he created, and you know, because he said, like, okay, you know, this is how it started. I was flying the plane and and landed and stuff. If he actually like put it down like on paper like in a sc like maybe in a script form or at least in a written form, you know, you would have maybe a book or a screenplay or something off of off of that, you know, and something.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, it's but not but now you probably know from this why they made the movie with Steve Corral. Yeah. Yeah. But he's playing Mark Hogan.
SPEAKER_00So but it so I'm I'm wondering about about the movie where it's like, okay, or is it like I mean obviously I haven't seen the movie yet, so I don't know what it's like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so now you need to watch the movie because you you know more about Mark and you understand all the backstory.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Uh in the movie, you don't for me anyway, I didn't get enough backstory. I didn't really understand him. I liked him.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Uh you know, as as a as a person in in um Marwin. Welcome welcome to Marwin. That's what it's called. Welcome to Marwan.
SPEAKER_00But uh so the town that he created, it's called Marwin Call.
SPEAKER_02I know. They could have kept it. It's like just keep it. What's it? I know, I know. But that's why a lot of people say, why did they make that movie? Because the documentary was so much better. Yeah. But you you you really should just sit down this weekend. You should you should watch the movie.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I'll try and see if I can find it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because it's it's definitely I it's probably still on Netflix.
SPEAKER_00There's a good chance, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, that's where I saw it too. I know. But yeah, and when you watch it, you're going, okay, they got part of it. But they didn't get the whole story. So if you if you really if even if you do see Welcome to Marwin and you kind of like the story and you want the whole picture, then you have to watch the doc documentary.
SPEAKER_00The documentary, too.
SPEAKER_02Which is hard to find. We know that. Yeah, uh, it's a little treasure, you know, kind of thing, but it is something that is just very, very different.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the it's it's a little gem gem of, you know, that once you find it, then it's like, you know, it's something definitely to hang on to. I mean, that's which is probably why it's so hard to find, is that because not everybody is giving, you know, would give it up or you know, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So you wouldn't be able to find it. Yeah, because this is one that, yeah, you're gonna keep for a long time. Yeah. But but yeah, I I do think it is good. I mean, if if anyone does have a chance to see it, that's great. I mean, you can watch Welcome to Marwin, and then you'll kind of really want to see the documentary so that you can hunt a little harder for it.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. But yeah, I mean, I I I like that for the documentary, it touches on a lot of different stuff. I mean, it touches on you know what happens um during trauma and what happens afterwards. Um, and it is about an an artist that doesn't see himself as an artist, you know, because he's just doing his process of what what he's of what he's going through. Um so yeah, so I mean it's uh it touches on all these things and and shows you this world that he's that he's created. And I like that it's um you gotta see the stills that Mark that Mark did as well as watching him actually do it as well and creating it. Yeah. So I thought I thought that was pretty cool. Yeah, because it could have been all just done with just the stills without actually seeing him actually do it.
SPEAKER_02And it is nice just pretty nice to see how you know he's when he's in his world, he's in his world. Yeah. And it's really important to him, and it's you know, it's working for him. It worked for him.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02You know, and I think that's that's really kind of nice to be able to find that. Because that that is hard for a lot of people that have gone through a traumatic episode or whatever, and they need to find something and they just can't seem to find it. Right. You know, and and it doesn't mean they're not looking hard enough or trying hard enough, but he was lucky enough to actually find something.
SPEAKER_00Yep, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00All right. Well, should we go ahead and wrap this up? I guess so. All right. Well, thank you guys for listening. Uh make sure you check out Marwan Call uh whenever you can or wherever you can find it. Uh a little hard to find, but once you find it, definitely check it out. All right. And until next time, I'm Barry.
SPEAKER_02And I'm Robin.
SPEAKER_00And we will talk to you guys later.
