The UnlearnT Podcast
The UnlearnT Podcast is designed to help you gain the courage to change your mind about things you never thought you would change your mind about. Our hope is that you will begin to move towards a life of freedom after hearing stories from individuals who have chosen to unlearn some things in their lives.
The UnlearnT Podcast
“They Not Like Us”: The Conversation About Race That You Haven’t Had Yet
We welcome Megan back to the podcast for a crucial conversation centered around race. Through personal anecdotes and open dialogue, we explore the complexities and nuances of discussing race among friends from different backgrounds.
- The importance of courage in changing perspectives
- Creating safe spaces for honest discussions on race
- The role of relationships in fostering understanding
- Personal experiences that shape racial perceptions
- The communal aspect of racial identity and support
- Navigating discomfort and stereotypes in race conversations
Become a part of our community where real conversations can currently take place. Don’t just be a listener, take action! Engage with the podcast, share your thoughts, and help spread awareness. Join us in unlearning together so we can experience more freedom.
hello everybody and welcome once again to the unlearned podcast. I am your host with abigail aka ra what's up, friends? It's your girl, jaquita and this is the podcast that is helping you to gain the courage to change your mind so you can experience more freedom. And yes, yes, yes, we have a special guest not her first time on the podcast. What's up, megan?
Speaker 2:Megan was like when do I say my name? Do I say it now?
Speaker 3:Do I say it right now.
Speaker 1:I love it so good to be here, oh, yay, okay. So we're excited. So this, yeah. So, like you all know, we're in kitchen table conversations and so we invited Megan to join us for this one, and I'm just going to kind of let her, because I am who I am, you know what I mean. Me and Megan have been friends for a long time.
Speaker 3:She's so trifling Wow, it was very petty. She's so trifling Wow, it was very petty.
Speaker 2:I am who I am means I'm trifling. Go ahead, Meg. I'm telling the story.
Speaker 3:I just get a text message and it's like hey, me and Queeter are doing this series. We want you to be on the podcast, but you have to commit before I tell you what the topic is going to be. And I'm like that sucks Signing up for, but you're my friend, so like that's just what we do. We say yes. And then she was like okay, well, we're going to talk about race.
Speaker 2:And I was like, oh, yeah, I would like to say as a member of the Unlaunched podcast, I am not at all represented. Okay, in the way that Ruth Abigail chose to approach poor Megan.
Speaker 3:She mentioned you're white, me and Queda both know you. That's crazy and I'm like I'm pretty sure you both know at least two white people. I know you know more than one, but then it makes sense like maybe I'm the only one you guys know together. Who's like we've all spent time together like this it makes sense.
Speaker 2:It gets crazier and crazier it gets crazier and crazier, I mean it's just getting worse and worse, so Ruth Abgo's like I need a white, I need a white technically I'm Olive and I don't subscribe to the white, but I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3:I'm just kidding everyone.
Speaker 2:That was a joke.
Speaker 3:I'll do it was hilarious.
Speaker 1:That is hilarious. Yes, so just teasing, so yeah that's why we're here that's why we're here, guys, welcome. All right, so we're talking about, we're gonna tackle this, this issue of race, and yes, it is true, I did do that. Yes, it is true that jaquita had nothing to do with it, so her name is totally cleared I didn't approve megan though oh yeah, megan, she did, yeah, yeah, she just didn't approve the way I did it, but um, I thought she had a little more class.
Speaker 1:I don't know the goal was to get it done. Okay, got it done there it is but in all seriousness I do this.
Speaker 1:This is a. This could be a tense topic. We know that. We realize that we're tackling something that is not often tackled and when it is not often tackled well, and so I mean, it's true, like a lot of people don't know how to talk about race well, I mean, that's real um, and a lot of times we don't talk about it with um, with other people, with people who have a different race. I mean the reality, like at least I don't sound about y'all, but like on podcasts I rarely see rarely, not that I haven't seen at all, but but rarely see for people of different races on the same podcast at all, to be honest with you, and then talking about race on a podcast that isn't rooted in one educating the other, right this?
Speaker 1:is not what this is. We are not here to educate Megan on how to be a nice white person. That's not what this is about. No-transcript, not to be upset, not to get like we're not, but it really is to learn how to have these healthy, real, um, raw, uh, tense, uh, sometimes difficult, but can be very healing conversations, right, um, and the whole goal of this and of the podcast is to help us change our minds, like, so we got to change our minds about how we actually approach this topic.
Speaker 1:And, um, megan is, she is a great friend of mine, um, and you know, I trust her and we really are. It's one of those things, like, when she calls me to do some, I don't ask much many questions. The answer is probably going to be yes, and because we, just because we have a relationship and I think, like just opening up the conversation, like you know me, meg, we were talking earlier relationship is such a central key to this. I mean we wouldn't be on this podcast together doing this if we didn't have a relationship. Yeah, you know, for sure.
Speaker 1:So how has I'll just kind of open up the question just like you know how has relationship played a role in your relations, with your connections with different races growing up?
Speaker 3:You want to go first, sure.
Speaker 2:You know. So I grew up kind of in the military. My dad got in the military right before I was born and so we kind of moved from state to state and then we moved out the country. I started school in Germany, was over there for four years and as we like kind of opened up this conversation, I was thinking about the first time I realized I was black and it was in the first grade. I was in the first grade At the time.
Speaker 2:My best friend, her name, was Jenna Okay, I don't know where you at, jenna, but hey, girl, but at the time, first grade, my first best friend, her name was Jenna, and I had another best friend too and Jenna was mixed. And then my other best friend I can't really remember her name because it was first grade, but let's just call her Mariana because I think it was something close to that. Wow, but she was, she was Hispanic and that was my crew, like when I went to school. It was me, jenna and Mariana. So sorry, mariana, I know that's not your name, but but we best friend anyways.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was first grade, I was six, I got okay. But I remember one day on the playground, you know, jenna was very, very fair-skinned um, and I remember we used to play every day on the playground. I knew I was gonna go outside and I was gonna play with jenna oh, that's why I don't remember her name. Baby left, she left in the middle of the year. There you go. We didn't really get to bond. There it is. So it was me and Jenna for a while.
Speaker 2:And then one day I went to the playground and Jenna was hanging out with some white friends and I was like, okay, so I guess I'm going to join this crew. And Jenna came up to me and she said you know, jaquita, we don't have to hang out all the time. And I was like, oh, so I'm not good enough to hang with you and your new friends. Oh, wow, and that literally was. That literally broke something in me, because it made me feel like I was like oh, I don't know that I can, like in a, in a real way, have friendships with people from different races, because I wasn't. I was good enough when she wanted to be friends, but I wasn't good enough when she wanted to hang out with her white friends.
Speaker 2:So eventually I found the, I found my black friends and they were like you know, they were like you belong here. You know, like you were always supposed to be here. And so it took me a while to kind of like navigate through having relationships with different people, because that really broke my heart at a young age and it set a precedence that like when you go into, because as an army kid you were always in new situations. You know, like we moved back to the United States. I came back to school and I was like, ok, who's going to be my friends? And then immediately you go, you start navigating toward people that that look like you, but on the army base. It wasn't like that until I had that experience.
Speaker 1:And I didn't know that. Queda, that's a new story. I didn't know that that happened. I feel like Joy knew that. Wow, I don't know how to feel about that.
Speaker 2:Cause I feel like I've told you this story and you just forgot it. No, I've never heard that story. Not that. No, I really haven't Like um, but like that would be, uh, very defining, like I you know that's a very defining moment I mean and this is not to say I just want to clear the air this is not to say that growing up I didn't have friends from different races, I absolutely did, but I'm saying it put this natural inclination in me that said you might get rejected, yeah.
Speaker 3:Like a pause.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like a pause, Like hey, am I cool enough for you? Am I smart enough for you? Am I like? I felt like I had to prove something in order to go into those other spaces, Whereas I felt more like I was already. There was already a place at the table for me, at the black table. I had to. I had to either prove that I was going to be like you know, safe and acceptable I had to be extra funny or I had to be extra smart, Like I had to find something that would make me click in that space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, um, I grew up in a interesting situation. My school situation was, um, I was the only black kid in my class up to the eighth grade and um, and you know, none of my teachers were ever, uh, were black. I just did. That's just not what my. That wasn't my education.
Speaker 1:So five days out the week I was surrounded by white people Like it was just a part of that was just how I grew up and then on Sundays I went to an all-black church and so Sundays and Wednesdays and Sunday nights, so I mean you know we were there and so, but like it, I had a very my experience with another race was with white people specifically was because we were at was at a private school. At that school there was a lot of people of means and wealth. My understanding was white people are a lot of. I'm not going to say they all were this, but in my mind, just as a kid, white people are smart and white people are rich.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I think that's. Can I interrupt? I think that is. I think that's such a valuable statement of like as a kid, which is why it's so important like to start having these conversations when kids are little, because they don't have the ability to like abstract, think Like to them it is like oh this is how I felt, this is what this meant, and I think we like grow up just associating that, like that's what that meant.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Whether or not maybe someone actually meant for you to feel rejected or not. Like that's besides the point. Like kids don't have the ability to do deductive thinking, yeah, yeah. Like that is what's true.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and you go about life like that and, like you said, you form philosophies around that Like, and you know, and so it was like all right, so I have to be. I'm not I mean, we're not wealthy, I can't do anything about that but I could do something about being smart. So I was like well, I guess I'm just going to have to be smart, and and and I. I think that was just, it was something, even if I'm saying it out loud, I don't know that I actually I could for sure. No, I did not. I was not conscious of that, like, but in my mind it was.
Speaker 1:I have to perform academically at a level that makes it make sense that I'm here. You know, um, and my uh, and what I'm grateful for is I'm grateful for this. I'm grateful that I had a balance in my life, um, where my, my, my church world and just my family were very affirming in you. Being black is, um, something to be proud of. This is our history. This is why this is you know, you, and, and, and.
Speaker 1:So I was affirmed in those ways grow all at the same time. I was experiencing this other thing and I think as a, because most of a child's life is within their academic space. That took precedent in my mind until I got older. You know what I mean. So, like the things I was affirmed of in my home, at church, I didn't really internalize that deeply until I got older and I got out of that and I began to experience, um, and went till I got to college, really, and like that's when everything shifted and I started to see the world from the different lens of like, oh, like, oh, shoot, like I'm. This is not what I thought it was, uh, and I and I had, I had to, I had to unlearn, and I had to unlearn that what I was experiencing at home was the same as what I've experienced when I left.
Speaker 1:Like that it wasn't the same and that's why I'm grateful for the counterbalance of my home and my church, because it gave me something I didn't know I needed when I left and I had to stand on my own in, uh, in a sea of other indifference that that did not know who I was you know, I'm saying like um, and so it did impact.
Speaker 1:how I began my relationships. I had my relationships with um, with my friends at school, was just because we were at school, like that was, that was my you know, and they happened to be white Like I didn't think anything of it. But when I went to college and I and I approached white people like I would have approached them in high school or in elementary school where I grew up, it did not transfer like white folks did not, did not accept me like that, like I still, I felt othered and I was like, hold on, I've never felt like this, like I've never. I never like felt that that strong and it and it redefined how I approached my relations with white people. Interesting, if I'm being honest. Like that was, yeah, it just redefined it, um, because I was like, oh, got it, so that was a. My experience was like a it's like I mean, it truly wasn't a bubble, and now the bubbles burst and okay, cool, cool, I didn't, I didn't know. Now I know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:What about you? It's interesting. I don't necessarily have, I mean, when I was little. I don't have any stories like that necessarily. I just remember like race was, it just wasn't a topic of conversation. I think the main conversation was just like you treat everyone the same, you don't see color, we all bleed the same, and I don't necessarily think that's bad information, but we just didn't.
Speaker 3:It was like if you said black, it's like don't say black and you're like, okay, why can't I say black? You know, my elementary school and middle school, like I was probably, honestly, I think it was pretty equal diversity wise. I think that was the area I lived in and I just it wasn't until I got to college that I was genuinely confused that like people I was eating dinner with didn't have black friends. Like that just didn't make sense to me. But I, while being in friendships with black people, I still had the mindset of like we don't see color, like I don't know if I ever valued them for being black. It was just, you know, I was just there I did, in high school, date a black guy and we would go to some of his family's house and I remember one time I don't think this like I don't know what the significance of it was in the moment, but I was like very aware of like the conversations that being had about white people behind closed doors. Um, yeah.
Speaker 3:And they just are a thing Like and I remember one time trying to bring a cake over to like one of the family functions and it wasn't good and I remember being made so much fun of I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:I'm so sorry oh no, oh, girl oh man, and so I think like the only way that that really oh girl, oh man.
Speaker 3:And so I think like the only way that that really impacted me was like oh, white people can't cook, really can't cook, and the seasoning like super bland, it did kind of pause. I didn't cook for a very long time. I'm just now kind of starting to start cooking again.
Speaker 2:But you gotta just let it roll.
Speaker 3:You gotta let it roll off you know right, listen it was. It wasn't until I was like in homes of people that I realized, like, what conversations were actually happening that definitely weren't happening in my household. If it wasn't for those experiences, I'm not sure I really would have understood the conversations in general yeah, yeah, yeah no, I think that's so interesting because I feel like it.
Speaker 2:You coming into black spaces where you're the other like, even though it was, like you know, like a cake, like they're still like this. Okay, a, I now have to perform for this other side or I have to show up in a way, like I think you know one.
Speaker 2:It's a human need, like everybody wants to feel accepted, you know, and we want to feel, um, we want to feel like we have a place in the spaces that we show up, but when we are our, our living spaces I think that's so interesting because me and Ruth were talking about, like, educational spaces- yeah, but when you?
Speaker 2:go when you go into each other's homes. I'm like I told somebody recently I was like you know, just because we 100 on this podcast. I was like, and you know, just because we 100 on this podcast, I was like I don't really, I don't really know that I know what the inside of a white couple's home is like, like I don't know what the feel of it is like. Like how do we talk to the kids?
Speaker 3:Is it like hey, you better sit down somewhere, or is it like hey? Johnny, are we gentle parenting?
Speaker 2:I don't know, you know like Child, no gentle parenting I don't know Black people gentle parenting now too. Honey, it's a mix. It's mixed out here for everybody, for everybody. Okay, parenting is a whole nother bag right now.
Speaker 2:It is not what it was when we were growing up, but you know, like I don't know what, like dinner conversations look like, because I've never been invited into those spaces, and so when you don't get invited into those spaces now granted, in high school I did, but it was a white guy who had a lot of black friends, and so we all used to be over there, shout out to Michael, but we and he, he, he was, uh, anyways, that's neither here nor there. But I don't, I don't have a lot of context for what's happening in intimate spaces with with, you know, white people, and so that's something that. But it's something that I'm like curious about. You know, like it's something that I'm like I feel like we could build better relationships with each other If we had more, if there were more invitations into vulnerable spaces you know, invitations to the cookout, if you will.
Speaker 2:You know like you need to be in those vulnerable spaces in order for there to ever be a bridge, because without that, we're all just playing in the. You know like when we you're not, you're not really yourself when you step outside your house you know you are putting on some type of performance when I go to work. I'm giving them, hey guys how was your weekend?
Speaker 3:I'll be on the phone.
Speaker 1:I'll be on the phone with when she be walking in, sometimes to to work and I tell you what that's, that flip boy?
Speaker 2:we all do it we all do it first of all. First of all, I'm friendly. That's because I'm friendly. I'm friends with you, but I'm friendly, okay, with my work right now you ain't, so I talk to them in a friendly voice.
Speaker 1:You get whatever comes out I don't get friendly, that uh, that ain't, but it's so. But. But to your point, though, the flip is so quick, it's, it's a natural, because you're right, we don't, we perform. I mean, that's, we're on, we're performing outside of our house, like that's real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the space you're walking into is going to dictate how you interact with it. Yes, right, like I don't even think about it, I walk into that space and I'm like, oh yeah, this worked, jaquita, you know I.
Speaker 1:Like if. I, if we had friends more diverse friends that we were spending more intimate time with, could we?
Speaker 3:start taking off some of these faces, yeah, and some stuff. Like I think some stuff has to be approached with some lightheartedness, you know. Like I think it's OK to say that, like white people season differently than black people, like we, don't accept all stereotypes. I mean, that's sometimes, that's really true, you know um, it's pretty true it's not just a stereotype just right and like vulnerabilities.
Speaker 3:Nobody just wants to be wrong and be embarrassed. So it's like if you can just be okay with, like maybe I did say the wrong thing, I think the art of like reconciling something is lost a little. It's like if I offended you or if I said something that wasn't okay. Like please tell me. And then also like, just make it right, but we don't. Like. The conflict is such a like that's a hard thing for people and people want to avoid it and they don't want to deal with it. But real healing comes from when you have hard confrontation conversations and there's a resolve at the end of it.
Speaker 3:Yes, you're like man it really wasn't that bad. It's just bigger in our heads for good reason like social media and the media like it makes it almost impossible to want to even attempt to do something hard. And I'm not even talking about just white and black people having conversations like there's a lot of pressure, but there is um. Dealing with conflict is like just a lost art yeah, I, I think I.
Speaker 1:I just want to go back to something you were saying earlier. Well, both of y'all, which is, you know, bringing up the intimate space piece and just like being in each other's vulnerable spaces or intimate spaces. And, megan, I think it's a great point what you make. We just like the experience of being in a home and that which is different than being in, you know, educational environments. It's very different, right, and so church or church like it's very different. And so I, um, I think that no, no, no, where'd it go? Where'd it go?
Speaker 1:no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no it is um but, but I think I think my, my overarching point was how uh, oh, there was, I got it. So in those spaces you were saying megan, megan, you noticed, you recognized we don't talk about Black people the way Black people talk about white people in their homes, and it's really, I think that's so interesting. It's like no, no, no, we don't talk about that versus. I mean, in my home we talked about it. We talked about it from a standpoint of learning.
Speaker 1:In my home we talked about it. We talked about it from a standpoint of learning and education, and I need to show you and teach you and you need to be aware of, and you know, all these different things and it's true, like I mean, I am grateful for that and you know, and I think also just for a. It also defined, I think, safe space right, and it does a lot of Black homes. It's like you have to deal with being the minority everywhere else, but in your safe spaces, and for Black people throughout history, most of that has been the home and the church, and so those are spaces where we get to talk about what it's like being out here with white people.
Speaker 1:White people don't necessarily have that same. Well, let me say I mean you and your case and we're not. We're not generalizing here, but you know it's. I do find that to be really interesting, like it was a natural conversation for us.
Speaker 3:We did talk about it Right, like I mean, it was a, but it was kind of just the blanket statement Like this is how you approach it, you don't see color, we treat everybody the same, and then it just really didn't go any deeper than that.
Speaker 3:And it wasn't something that was really brought up a lot, it was just kind of like an understood and there was really no opportunity to celebrate differences. I just didn't see the differences which, like I said, sometimes I don't want to treat anybody as if they're different than me, but I should acknowledge their differences.
Speaker 1:There's a difference, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's so interesting. I'm going to travel back and then I'm going to catch up. But when you were talking about how we don't confront the issues anymore, I think it's because we made it frightening to have differences and to like or for somebody to stray from one of the societal norms that that often aren't spoken, are discussed, but we're holding people accountable for so. When cancel culture was introduced, it really prevented like real conversations from happening, because people were like I don't know, I don't even know what will get me canceled. And not only can the conversation we're having right now get us canceled, but they traveling back you know what I'm saying. They going back through the Twitter timeline you know what I'm saying. They're pulling up Facebook and going back to 2005. And they're like oh yeah, see, and this clocks, because she said this when she was 17.
Speaker 2:And this clocks to what she's saying when she's 30 and so we're preventing, we're not allowing people to really like you have to be able to express something so that we can lovingly redirect. Yeah, you know, and but I do think you know the, the I don't see color thing, that that that has been like kind of like. That's kind of like the safe road that I think a lot of people took, you know, and not just white people, not just white people. I think a lot of people took, you know, and not just white people, not just white people. I think a lot of people took that I don't see color meaning one, I don't want to get canceled for saying, thinking or doing the wrong thing, right. And so that became the blatant statement until it started getting challenged and people were like, no, you need to see me, this big, beautiful black girl in front of you. You're going to see her, you know, and you're going to recognize the richness and how I treasure it. I treasure being a black woman and I don't want you to not see that.
Speaker 2:But we have to get to a space, there have to be bridge builders and I realize not everybody is called to this work, all right, and not everybody is called to be the person that say hey, hey, baby, hey, baby. No, I want, I want us all to have this loving relationship, but we have to. We have to allow for the bridge builders to do the work, just like we're allowing for the activists to do the work, just like we're allowing for the people who are, you know, behind the scenes doing the work. Everybody has their place, but we make people ashamed when they're like no, I have relationships with people across the aisle. I have conversations with people that don't look like me or think like me or, you know, perceive the world like me and we now, I think there's a kind of streamline that is like, yeah, you'll sell out, and it's like, no, yeah, boy, you have to have it Lord.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yep, yep, yep.
Speaker 3:And it's interesting, like the bridge builder thing, because, ruth, I know you were talking a little bit ago of like there was a season when, like, all of these people were coming out of nowhere trying to have this race conversation with you because you were the black person that they knew. Maybe you haven't talked to them for a long time and you were having to, like, explain all these things and I think it's important. It's like the bridge builders need to choose that they're going to be bridge builders.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great point.
Speaker 3:Like it can't just be expected that, like just because I have this Black friend, that they can educate me?
Speaker 1:on everything.
Speaker 3:It has to be this mutual and you may even have to say I suck at this. I need help acknowledging the honesty of where we both are. It can't just be all of this pressure on the one that you know white person or a black person, like that's just too much for someone, and I do. I think it is important, like the activists, and like there has to be a bridge builder and there has to be people that are patient, that are willing to just walk slowly with people Like slavery was 400 years right, and you have the argument like shouldn't we be over it by now?
Speaker 3:Okay, Well, it was 400 years ago, so you can't just get rid of something that lasted for that long. And it's the same with the mindset of the perpetrator. Like you can't just expect people's mindsets to go away because we're done talking about it Like it doesn't work that way. But you also can't force people, black or white, to be where they're not.
Speaker 1:That's you, you make a great point and I, I, that's one of the things I had to um, accept. I love what you said. Like bridge builders need to choose. That I, I realized because of my upbringing which is not a normal upbringing for anybody I, my, my world was just not the same as black or white or any other race. I mean I might had a very, very unique childhood.
Speaker 1:I recognize that and I also recognize that I I believe god did that for a reason, like I'm not, that's not something I, that's not something I chose, but I choose to accept it, right, right. And so I love what you said and I've realized in a lot of instances, I realized that I do happen to be the black person who has more patience than other black people, and I have more, who has more patience than other black people, and I have more. You are I, I mean I, I, I know, I see, I like, I feel that and I and I do um, because I, I understand, I love what you said. You, it's on both sides, like I mean 400 years of slavery and 100, uh, what is, 150 years or so, jim crow, so we're not talking like it's, it's very, very recent side of the shorter end where things are like when you look at there's, you know like we're.
Speaker 1:It's truly like.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, we haven't given a name to the time period we're in right now, but it's not at, we're not fully there, we're not, we're not when you look at the timeline, like you know there are, these people have done these timelines and you see, I mean it's a not what is it?
Speaker 1:19, the voting race I was in 1965. 1965 is when black people got the actual right to vote. What were they were? They weren't a lot, weren't they? Um the, the laws of intimidation didn't outlaw the actual voting right yeah, like our parents.
Speaker 3:Our parents were little, my mom was 15. We're connected to that. Yeah, like we're connected to that generation yeah, like you can't.
Speaker 1:So so to your point. We can't just get rid of that just because we were done talking about it. There's no done talking about it. We still got people alive who lived it. We have to talk about it like yeah and and, but you have to opt into the conversation, and, and I do think and, and, and, if people and it has to be a conversation, yeah, it has to be a conversation which involves listening, um, on both ends.
Speaker 1:And I think I will say, I think, and I I put myself this there have been a lot of times that I've been involved in conversations and it's hard for me to listen to white people. It's hard for me to hear it, it's hard for me to. It's like I don't even really what you're saying right now. You don't, I don't think you realize how hard it is for me to hear this and allow you to be, allow you to go through this process, because it feels like such an antiquated process, like how could you possibly still be thinking the way you're thinking? But I have to accept that that's the, that's how people, that's. I can't hold it against people and I think that is. It's hard for even me, who has grown up in a very diverse world, who's very comfortable with any space that she's in, like I'm not uncomfortable just about anywhere, right, I, even me.
Speaker 1:It's difficult sometimes to listen to the thought process of some white folks. I do it. I do it because I have that. There's something God has put in me to be able to handle it. But it's hard and and and and I. So I really appreciate what you said. As far as you have to, you have to choose to do it and it takes time because um time because um, it's ingrained in in both sides, like there is unlearning to happen on both sides, and a lot, of, a lot of black people struggle with that, even me, that I have to unlearn stuff too. I don't like that because I'm like I I don't feel like I should have to unlearn, I feel like white folks should have to unlearn. That's, that's the truth, um but that's not.
Speaker 1:You know I'm saying but that that's not real.
Speaker 3:I do have to unlearn some stuff well I mean oh, go ahead no, go ahead I don't even. It's gone middle middle age you know yeah, I think, I think you know.
Speaker 2:You know, right now there's all these memes and all these conversations about how the Black women are like we taking time off. Ok, like, don't ask us nothing, because you know, we tried and told you. Ok, we, we. But I think it's because the intersectionality of Black women, in both being a Black person in America and being a woman in America, like we are so hyper vigilant and so hyper aware of everything because we are oftentimes somewhere close to the bottom of the totem pole, and so you always have to be hyper aware of what's happening around you and above you because it's going to impact you, whereas I think, for the higher you get up the pole, the less these things personally impact you, like you know. And so I think, when you were talking, ruth Abigail, and you were like listening to white people, sometimes it's just like you still don't get it. Well, we have spent centuries getting it because we had to, that's right.
Speaker 2:Because that was the only way that we were able to stay one step ahead and to take care of our families, who oftentimes we were left with Right Because of slavery, because of what happened after slavery, because of what's still happening Right. We oftentimes are left with the children, left with the families Right, and so the protective nature in us is I need to know what's going on in you, you, you and I need to know what's going on in the government. I need to know what's going on everywhere, because it can hurt me or I can hurt the people that I'm close to, and the hypervigilance has made us very intuitive, but it has also really brought us to such a higher level of stress where we are also a more vulnerable population to a lot of diseases and things, because we're holding so much just by nature of being a Black woman, and so I think that you know, I think when we talk about this bridge, I think a lot of Black women are saying I've been walking, I've been building this bridge for a long time.
Speaker 1:Burn out. Yeah, and I'm burning out.
Speaker 2:And they're like I'm in the middle. If you want, if you want a bridge, come meet me over here. I'm not, I'm not going past where I am right now and honestly, I think that's fair. I think it's fair. It's like y'all, y'all, we've done a good portion of the work and now we're like we need to take care of ourselves because we about to. Some of this has to be relieved.
Speaker 3:I think that we were also talking about this a little earlier too. I think there is a real thing around individualism and community. So, like black culture is such a rich thing and I was saying with abigail like you, like black people can be in a room together and there's just like this unspoken like, if you know, you know, and it's like everybody's just kind of on the same page and you don't have to say it out loud. And white people, like I, have traditions and like culture within my immediate family, but I don't really have connections to anything further than that. Like it really is, you work hard, you, you know every man for himself and so I don't know if there's like a gap in being able to relate to certain things, because that's just not as value is not the right word, because I think it could be a value. It just hasn't been like a reality.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think it's like when, when, when one thing happens to the black community, it is like felt by the whole community by the whole community yeah, and it's not to say that like I don't feel it.
Speaker 2:Um, I do, but it's different but not in like a communal way not in a communal way and not in a way that I'm ever gonna to really be able to understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, yeah, I think that's that is a very profound. We work like the communal aspect, like just the idea of community. The most basic, most basic requirement of community is safety right and survival. Requirement of community is safety right and survival um, and because that has been the legacy of black people in america is safety and survival um, and community. Because we have to have that, we have to have community in order to survive and to feel safe, and because that, that has been the, the, that has been the journey. Uh, since we, you know we're, since af, since African slaves were brought to the country, that has ingrained, it's in our DNA. It's not something we can you know. It is really interesting how it is, how it is very, I mean, you know that's.
Speaker 1:I had to. I mean, I think for a minute I didn't know, because I didn't grow up the way a lot of Black people at least that I knew did. I mean, experiences were very different and I had to. One of the things I had to unlearn was that my Black experiences, my Black experience, wasn't valid because it wasn't the norm, and it wasn't until I got a little older that I recognized that, even though it wasn't, I didn't grow up like what I saw or knew of at the time, most Black people had grown up, my connection to the Black experience was just as deep and and this is um I, I couldn't have told you that.
Speaker 1:I think that the what, where it hit me honestly, was 2016. There was a lot of I. Just I had this moment, um, and you know when, when, um, it was when Philando Castile. I may have told you this, megan, yeah, I definitely told you this because, um, um, we, you, we were on the bridge. So me and Megan, uh, were on the bridge together and the bridge protest for um at 2016.
Speaker 1:And and what? What triggered it for me? The reason I went was because, um, that you know, it's like a couple of days before that I think it was a Thursday Philando Castile being killed, and it, for me, brought up, it just triggered my, the realities of my brother, who I don't. There was a lot of similarities that I saw with them and that broke me and I remember texting uh, meg and our friend Brittany, and we started talking and I can't remember who found the, the protest, but, um, we found it.
Speaker 1:We ended up showing up to something. We didn't even know what it was, uh, and you know, and we, we were, we were there and it was the first time that I had done something about just I had physically participated in activist movement because of my connection to the Black experience, because I stopped believing that my experience was invalid, because it wasn't the norm, and I was like, no, I'm, I'm as black as any other black person and I'm black enough, I'm, I'm, and I'm out here like because I'm pissed off too and I get to be pissed off and and I think I just I that for those are things. But it's really interesting. It took me a minute, you know, it took me a minute because I had to unlearn it, like I had to unlearn that my experience, like all black experiences, aren't the same and it doesn't, it doesn't disqualify your blackness, like it's interesting.
Speaker 3:You're saying that that's bringing back memories for me and I'm like OK, so why did I go? Hmm, you know, and yeah, I think there's a part of it that's like for the bigger experience. But like, really, it was like I wanted to be with you and Brit, like you guys were who were important to me, yep, but, like you're thinking about, it was like all of these other people are important to me, but I'm like the two people in front of me are important to me and I want to go support them for a bigger cause. But I don't, I don't necessarily know if I was thinking about the bigger, bigger picture, which now, you know, I'm just kind of reflecting on it as we're talking, but also I don't even think I've told you this like I was nervous the whole time. Oh yeah, like I was. I was just like, oh my gosh, like what am I actually doing? This is crazy, you know.
Speaker 3:And there got to a point where I was like I think I've, I think I've hit my limit, like I'm. It's getting to. You know, like when it started getting um, I don't know, there was a minute where, like I think the police and Devonta Hill were starting to do a standoff and I was like I don't think I can make it.
Speaker 1:they started started beating on the car that came up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know I could look at that and be like, oh, I didn't really mean what I said, or like I could shame that. But I also think it's like you know what, but like I did it, afraid, and I didn't know all that was going to come with that, right, like you can't predict how something's going to go.
Speaker 3:You can't always predict how you're going to respond in a certain situation, cause I can sit here and been like I would have been beaten on the truck with them. You know, in reality I was like I'm getting nervous about where this is going to go. Um, but I do think for maybe, white people that are struggling. It's like if you are nervous, like, do it anyways.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like just do it anyways and then process through what made you nervous.
Speaker 1:That's really good, you know.
Speaker 3:And like, if it is maybe like I don't know what I'm trying to think, like maybe it is a reason that would maybe be offensive, we'll process through it anyways, up, process through it anyways and then next time you can make a better decision and like not necessarily better decision, but you can make the decision um more purposely yeah, that's good, that's good, that's really good yeah, you um you.
Speaker 1:It's funny and I'll say this and then quita um I, as you were saying, like reflecting on how you felt, like you felt nervous, I felt proud, I felt proud. I think I felt proud too.
Speaker 3:That's fair, but I was really just like aware, I was just like I can't believe I'm here.
Speaker 1:It's crazy. Well, I had that too. I mean, it was a wild experience. It was unlike any other experience I'd had, certainly up to that point. But, um, but I was like man, like I, we were very green, we had never done it before, I'd never done a protest, didn't even realize it was a protest till we started marching towards the bridge and then we were like, are we? We didn't, we had no idea, we were so ignorant. It was crazy, we, we really. We were dumb, really, and babies, we were that's funny but, but.
Speaker 1:But that that sense of pride was just like welling up inside of me, like and and it's funny I I felt protected also, because I was like we are all here, we not. Nothing is about to happen if it don't happen to all of us.
Speaker 1:If it happened to one of us, it happened to all of us and that's what that's literally, and I think that is such a um, going back to the communal feeling, the communal thing, that's such a very it's a key element of how we were, uh, how black, a lot of black people. I know how, how I was brought up. If it happens to one, it happens to all, like this is this is a us thing, this is a we thing, like you know, I don't have, we don't, you know, family man.
Speaker 1:we don't talk to each other for once, but once a year, but we ride together Like hey cause this we here like it's not. I don't have to, I don't have to know the intimate things about you. Just I just know we're connected.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I have to know the intimate things about you. Just, I just know we're connected. Yeah, it's like just that there is this connection. It's a connection I was saying like from the outside, looking in, like it's I mean, it's just noticeable and it's hard to put language to it. I also think it's funny with the um, the protest too is some of the pictures that came out on the media made it look like some of the guys that like had the flags and like the the bandanas, were like super angry and like violent.
Speaker 3:But that's not what it was it was passion I mean anger right like righteous righteous anger right but not like destructive anger, which I think is like a spin that gets put on protesters a lot um. But yeah, it was just interesting because I'm like no, nobody was destroying anything. It was passion, it was purpose, and so it is funny just how things our perspective would impact how we viewed that picture.
Speaker 2:Very true, that's interesting. This was also when I gave Ruth Abigail her new name, ruth the Revolutionary, which I still refer to her as because that's interesting. This was also when I gave ruth abigail her new name, ruth the revolutionary, um, which I still refer to her as because that's what she is. Okay, okay, I am a revolutionary. Okay, that is, that is ruth abigail. Okay, okay, after, after that moment, she became about about that life like she was like she jumped all the way in yeah, and I love it.
Speaker 2:I love it. Yeah, I think you know, megan, you said something earlier when you were talking about how, when people have like as a community, like when we're thinking community wise, that, like you don't often think, are that black people are very community oriented and I think most minorities are, but how, like those, you, you experience things more individually rather than communally. And I remember I was in divinity school and I remember I was talking with one of my friends. She was white and I was talking with her and she was like she was like you're really like you're really have like strong allegiances to your church, like I was like my church, I was like you know, I'm going back strong allegiances to your church, like I was like my church.
Speaker 2:I was like you know, I'm going back home to be at my church and she was like I don't have that. She was like I don't have like a strong sense of like I gotta be at this particular church. She said I feel some ties to my denomination, you know, but I, you know I could move and I, I remember thinking I at the time I didn't think it was a difference in race. I was like, oh okay, faith must look differently. You know, in some aspects maybe denominations, because my church is, was uh, founded like the founder is the pastor. So you know, like we've been with her, you know, you know she comes from a bigger denomination.
Speaker 2:But I look back at it now and I'm like I do also think that some of it is like surrounding these ideas of race, because when we think of, when I think of church, I think of a safe space. You know, I think that that's kind of like a communal understanding of church as well for black people. It's like, no, my church, this is my church, like, and I have built identity here. I've built like a place here. I know, I know how to come in here and operate, I know who the people are, I know what I'm giving and I know what I'm getting from this space. And I think that when we, uh, when we talk about that fear of difference sometimes, sometimes we don't know how to communicate with each other because we don't know the value of what, of how other people are valuing things Right. So when white people talk to us about church, right, like you don't know all of the ways that I value that place, because it's not the same, it doesn't always translate the same across those boundaries.
Speaker 2:And even when we think about things that are more social justice oriented, when a Black person is killed, especially when they're killed by police or when they're killed in an altercation that involves a white person, I don't think that it's not being the value of that to a community, like it's not just you know, oh, a black person died. Like that's not why, that's not the only grief point, it's that could have been my brother. That could have been my uncle. You know. That could have been my cousin. That could have been my brother. That could have been my uncle. You know that could have been my cousin. That could have been the students that I mentor and work with. You know, like that.
Speaker 2:Whenever I heard about a young man dying, whether they were running in the neighborhood or whether they were walking to school or walking from the gas station or whatever, immediately in my mind I see flashes of like you know, students, I see my cousins, I see my dad, I see my uncle, you know, and I'm just like it could it could have very easily have been somebody that I'm close to and it hits deep. It is not the loss of that person, it is the continued threat that it can be any one of us any day, and that we're still living underneath that, that veil of fear of how do we stop this? Because it seems, because it continues to happen, and it continues to happen as such, as such a frequency, like it hasn't died down, you know, like it has moments where it seems calm, but when it picks back up, it's almost like it's like have we? It seems calm, but when it picks back up, it's almost like it's like have we? Have we progressed any in the cycle of combating this where we don't have to feel afraid? And even like when we were talking about how we talk about race in our homes.
Speaker 2:It's because of stuff like this that we have to like, because you know, like you cannot see your children out there unaware yeah, they don't know. You don't know what they're going to encounter when they're not with you, and so I just had that thought about. You know, we're not experiencing things the same, but that's why it's important that you are having real conversations so that we can relearn empathy and compassion. Yeah, so that, and those are the things that allow us to talk across the board, because, like Megan said, megan didn't have those deep feelings of could have been my brother, could have been this, but she said the people in front of me, my empathy and compassion is what is connecting me to them, which is connecting me to this cause, and you'll grow as you go.
Speaker 2:You have to take the steps to make sure you are actually hearing the people who are speaking about what their experiences are.
Speaker 3:That's right. I'm thinking a little bit too. I don't necessarily have thoughts associated to this, but it's just a thought that has come up as we're talking of the communal aspect and I think I see that I don't want to say it like in such a general term, but you see a lot more of that with, like american military, with certain families, like I think that's like I'm just trying to associate it.
Speaker 3:it's like when something happens with that, it seems like there's more of a communal approach, interesting, like the marines of being able, yeah, like of being able to relate to, like if there's a fallen soldier, like there's a mass grieving, that happens with that. That's actually really good it's just one of the because I think you know, so many people can relate to having loved ones sent off to war and just the experience of them returning home, like there's a shared experience there that I think ties people together that we don't have with black people yeah okay, you, this is okay.
Speaker 1:Well, now my brain is just I've never look at her, it's so going I've never made the connection that is so interesting because, uh, yeah, like the, even the history of the military being um or being elevated at sports games and and um, that that's not, that's a fairly new phenomenon, like that's not that hadn't been the case forever, um, but that, that, that the, uh, the, the um, the trauma of war and and the fact that you know kind of these, the, the actual uh countries of the country being in war, has has a similar um effect for, uh, I see that right for for white families and I'm supposed to say white family, I don't think it's.
Speaker 3:I'm not excluding black people, I'm not limited to no just white families, but I think it's like one of the most tangible examples I could think of.
Speaker 1:Well, and that and it's. I've never made the connection because this idea of the trauma of war, it's like it's the same right for for black, for a lot of, for most people in, most black people in America have been a part of war right. It's the same right For a lot of for most people in, but most black people in America have been a part of war right. It's been an internal war, it's been a consistent, if you will, civil war, not in the sense of the historic one, but every day right is a fight, and so that mentality of survival of a fight, and so that's that, that mentality of survival of a fallen soldier, like the idea of, you know, George Floyd being a fallen soldier, that that's a really powerful motif. I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and I've never, I've never, I've never made that connection like really, and it does. There is something you know, you think about, why there's such grief and respect for the American military it's because you have these people put their lives on the line to make sure that we're safe. And I think that there is a connection and disconnection in the Black community right On that front. But also there's a generational divide there, because you'll talk to older black people who have that same passion and devotion to the country for the country's sake. And I'm not generalizing, I'm just based on the conversations I've had with people of different generations. Younger generations don't have the conversations I've had, do not. People of different generations, younger generations don't have the conversations I've had, do not show that same devotion to the country, but devotion to my people, or allegiance, necessarily.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's allegiance to my people, right, but not allegiance to the country. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:Yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1:But anyway, I love that you made that connection. I think it's I've never connected. I think it's a great way to understand, like you know, why that is so deep.
Speaker 3:Or a way to reference, like empathy, like if you're having trouble finding empathy this is a good example of like, but have you felt it with this? Well, like that's, it's just to be able to associate.
Speaker 1:You can't just force empathy on someone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's really good, you can't just make someone feel something they've never felt, but you have to be able to frame it with something else. You have to be able to find a common denominator somehow in order to build empathy.
Speaker 1:Yes, for sure you can have.
Speaker 3:You can have sympathy right like I can sit there and be like, oh, I really hate that, but I don't know how that feels yeah, um it also.
Speaker 1:I mean now it sounds like it could also be like when a when a cop dies, you know, um, yeah, that's saying kind of like that, that you know kind of back the blue, um, uh, you know movement there is.
Speaker 1:There is a much more communal approach with those, yeah that's interesting, um, and so I I love that, I think it's and it's interesting, I love that, I think that's a really great, uh, starting point for for folks who might have have trouble. But it's like, okay, what, what in you grieves when, uh, a fallen soldier, whether it's, um, you know, a police officer or somebody in the military, what, what it, what, what is grieving in you and why? And then being able to excuse me, being able to then begin to transfer why it might feel that way for black people, when you know when, when somebody who you know, when, a when a 25 year old black man is once again, you know, thrown in jail because he had a couple grams of weed, right Like, or is, has been in jail. You know, he's been in jail, you know, for 25 years for nonviolent crime, right, there's, there is a grief there, and you know and it's like can we, can we, can we begin to understand where that comes from?
Speaker 1:if you can locate where it comes from for you, can we begin to transfer that understanding begin to to where it might be located for black people?
Speaker 2:and then I think, really think about like, because in war there's a clear enemy right and it's a clear enemy that you are unified against.
Speaker 2:Begin to think about what, how black people in this country feel, and what sides is everybody on? I ain't going to name nothing, but I want you to consider, like, really consider like, who are black people having to contend with, and not just black people, minorities, disenfranchised people, people who come from lower income homes, socioeconomic statuses who are we all fighting against? Because there's not, there's not always a clear enemy, but sometimes it does get named, and so I think you would understand better if you, if you thought, thought those things through, like if you take that war parallel and then be like well dang, who they have war with? Is it me? Is it, is it this community? Is it, is it people in power? Who who's the war with? Because there's something working against us, and I think we have all. I think that we have tried to name those things, but it doesn't click until people really think through it for themselves and say, okay, I can see, if I had to name something, it would probably be this, and then continue with that that's really.
Speaker 1:I love the point of the enemy. Like all wars have enemies. You're fighting against something naming, being able to name the enemy, who you perceive the enemy to be. Um it, that it's, it's, it's. It's tough and I again, and I think, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be a person or an entity. No, a lot of it is. It's these ideals, you know, like a lot of the enemy, a lot of the, a lot of the enemy is being encapsulated in. Black men are dangerous, right, or that if they show up looking a certain way, talking a certain way, right, it's the ideology of that. That has been. And then I want you to think why is that? Why is that a thing Like? Why did it become a thing that black men who wear hoodies or who are walking around at night or whatever, right, when you see different types of people doing the same things, why did that become a thing? What institutionalized that thing like?
Speaker 1:but yeah, yeah and I I think the commute, like going back to this communal aspect, seems to be a very core part of this conversation.
Speaker 3:That's where my brain is going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure what my question is. I'm just I'm really processing at the moment, and so I don't I'm not even sure what I'm going to say is appropriate or not, but this is safe, so we're going to process through it.
Speaker 3:So we're going to process through it. We've talked a lot like there are strengths to the communal aspects, but then, like, maybe there are some weaknesses. Like in this situation, like, could it be flopped to where I don't know what I'm trying to say? I don't know what I'm trying to say, no, like when we're trying to get to know. Is it like, is the communal mind frame hindering us from being able to look at the individual in front of us? Because, like, we can group things together as like all white people, all black people, which is not necessarily wrong, but does that hinder us from being able to look at the person in front of us who may be getting? I don't know if I'm making any sense.
Speaker 1:No, I get it. No, no, no, you're making perfect sense, I mean, I think. I think this is kind of triggering, going back to a principle that I think is really important. Like there's a difference between realities and truth, and I think we like to conflate the two. Right, we interchange this, but the reality is there's realities Like there are things that are real, that we experienced, that are valid, and then there's truth, and truth is constant and unchanging. A reality can change, and so when, to your point, the reality is we experience these things as a community because of a tainted history in this country. That's the reality. The truth is that we are not the same. We are individuals. We do have different experiences, but our current reality doesn't doesn't? The current reality doesn't always connect to the truth, and so we have to learn how to exist in both and allow for both.
Speaker 3:It is okay to admit your reality and then, but prop up the truth, and I think that's kind of what I'm hearing and try to find it, because sometimes, like you can say things out loud and finally hear it for the first time, you know like some stuff can live in our heads for a long time and then, when you say it, you're like I don't actually think that's correct, like we have to have permission to be able to find the truth within our realities.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, and it's a process. It is a process. You know, I'm also thinking, like, when you talk about community, like, just obviously, this conversation is about race, but I do think, because we're all Jesus followers, I think it's important to also include this into the conversation, because that is also a community, a communal experience. It is intended to be that right, christians, the church, jesus followers, we exist in community. We're not supposed to exist on an individual basis. And so, going back to what, what, what Queen was talking about, there's no, let me, let me I don't know if I I'm going to fumble that, I it, it, it is, it is a similar.
Speaker 1:I think it gets messy and muddy when you have these realities that are race-based but there is a connection, faith-based, with different races, right? So there are these sometimes competing, communal realities that you have to contend with in order to, um, get to the truth, to your point, meg, right and I think this is part of this type of conversation is you have three people, um, who have had different experiences in the context, with the context of race, and you also have three people who have committed themselves to a Jesus way of life, and those are, for a lot of people really hard things to connect and you know we could do a whole other hour on where that three hours probably on, like how muddy that is. But I just I didn't want to leave the conversation without I can send to a part two if you want to do a part two.
Speaker 2:I might need myself for a part two.
Speaker 1:Because we've been talking for a minute. We have man Like I mean we have. But I think it's been really good and I think it's been a great entry into the conversation that we could go on forever. We haven't touched, I mean, we just literally have just scratched the surface like yeah, no, for real yeah, but this was good this is good, yeah, good start. Good, yeah, great start. So, meg, thank you for you know being my white friend.
Speaker 3:Yep, yep, thanks for being my to it. You're my white friend. Thanks for being my black friend.
Speaker 2:Of course, of course.
Speaker 1:Happy to Happy to be so. Yeah, this has been good. We might need a part two to it. We might need a part two. What do you think, queda? We do.
Speaker 2:I think so. I was looking over at our show notes and I was like lord, we ain't so.
Speaker 1:I don't think we hit none of that?
Speaker 3:no, we really did it. This is a series. Yeah, it's a it might be.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm down, let's do it because I didn't even get my funny story.
Speaker 3:Oh, you didn't get your funny story.
Speaker 2:You, oh, you didn't even get your funny story you know, we didn't really tell a lot of stories it's a lot of stories worth it yeah, uh, friends. Okay, we definitely forgot to do it at the beginning of that we always do, we always do okay, well, hopefully you stuck around because this was a really good conversation. All right, but we want to encourage you on today to like to share and to subscribe. Yes, okay, stop playing with us and become part of this community. Absolutely. Don't just play on the sidelines. Get in the game.
Speaker 3:Okay, make sure you like, don't just be individuals.
Speaker 2:Okay, become part of the community. Okay, it doesn't matter if you're black or white, latino, asian. We want all of y'all to become part of the community where we're having real conversations and unlearning together. So like, share, subscribe, send it to a friend, hit the notification bell so you know when these episodes are coming man alright y'all.
Speaker 1:I think that coming man All right y'all. I think that's enough for today. We will see y'all. Let's keep unlearning together so that we can experience more freedom, Peace, Bye, y'all. Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned Podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.
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