The UnlearnT Podcast
The UnlearnT Podcast is designed to help you gain the courage to change your mind about things you never thought you would change your mind about. Our hope is that you will begin to move towards a life of freedom after hearing stories from individuals who have chosen to unlearn some things in their lives.
The UnlearnT Podcast
Unlearning Parenting: The Smith Family Episode
The whole Smith family gathers for an intimate, multigenerational discussion about parenting approaches, examining what needs to be preserved and what should be unlearned for the benefit of future generations.
• Jacqueline Smith (mother) shares how "more is caught than taught" when it comes to parenting
• Rev. Rufus Smith IV (father) reflects on giving his children what they wanted too easily, wishing he'd made them "earn it a little bit more"
• The family explores differing definitions of success across generations – from career achievements to family formation to spiritual growth
• Parental disappointment versus giving up on children is distinguished as the family openly discusses educational paths and life choices
• Technology's impact on modern parenting emerges as a crucial challenge that previous generations didn't face
• Individualizing parenting approaches for each child's unique personality and needs stands out as essential wisdom
• The importance of allowing children to experience challenging tasks is highlighted as building necessary brain development and life skills
• Balancing discipline with gentleness while maintaining consistent expectations emerges as timeless parenting wisdom
Don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram to share your thoughts about this episode. We're looking forward to continuing to unlearn together as we move toward freedom.
Hello everybody and welcome once again to the unlearned podcast. I'm your host, ruth Abigail aka Ra, and this is the podcast that is helping you gain the courage to change your mind so that we can all experience more freedom, and this right here, as you can see, for freedom, and this, right here, as you can see, there's a lot of us here on the screen. I want to introduce everybody to my family um that I am so happy has joined me and I'm just going to tell you right now it's going to be a very entertaining uh hour or so, um, and uh yeah. So, hey, family, um, all right, so let me introduce them. We have my. We have my brother. You all may have heard. He has an episode on the podcast where we talk about religion. If you haven't heard that, check it out. It's one of the most popular.
Speaker 1:Okay, alright, you can let me do it. It's really not necessary for you to prop yourself. Got it, okay. So it is, though it is actually the most popular episode, and so I have him, that is my younger brother, I have my younger sister, who also has been on the podcast, and we're talking about sibling relationships Amazing episode. And then here we have my parents. I have my beautiful mother, jacqueline Smith, here with us, and none other than the Reverend Rufus Smith IV. Welcome family, I'm glad you're here.
Speaker 2:So how many views do I have and how many views does Rona have?
Speaker 3:It's really not Don't do that.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, guys, okay here we go, Just so we know.
Speaker 1:I'm not editing, okay, so all right. So what we're doing today, y'all, we're talking about unlearning. We're in a series called Unlearning Parenting, and this is really special because this is going to be our series where we really have a two-gen perspective Really, I guess three-gen, because my parents parented us, obviously, and then my brother and I have children, and so we have perspectives of people who are grandparents, people who are parents, people who have been kids all right here in this episode, and so we're going to. I want to talk about, I want us to have a conversation about overarching those different roles, how they're different. How did you manage in your space and how we manage in ours, doing what we do today? And, yeah, y'all know how we do.
Speaker 1:I have some questions. I may or may not get to them all, but let me just start with this. I'm going to start with you, ma, okay. Okay, I want to know what parenting mindset did. Would you have said this is absolutely the way to go, but looking at it today, maybe something you would have said is might be different based on what you learned. What parenting mindset did you have when you started parenting and as you got into parenting?
Speaker 4:maybe realized. I don't think I had a mindset, if I even understand that contemporary term but I just naturally parented the way I was parented. That's kind of more I really recognize. Now, looking at all of this with 20-20 hindsight vision, I recognize that what I do instinctively is what I saw, what I saw. I reflect on what I saw as I grew up. I reflect on what I saw as I grew up and that that to me proves the common concept I don't know who originated it that more is taught is caught than taught.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So I just what I reflect on in any instance, is how it was handled with me.
Speaker 1:I know that better than anything I've read. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's good, okay, so I think that's. I think that's a key thing. You parents are the way you were parented. Pop, would you say that as the same for you?
Speaker 5:for you yes and no. Okay, so to your question. What was I so dogmatic about that? Going into parenting but in hindsight would unlearn, was, I believe, at least from my perspective. I wanted to give all of you what you wanted in addition to what you needed, but I did so too easily. I would unlearn that and cause uh you to um merit, or wait a little longer than I did, because yeah, give an example of that.
Speaker 1:Give an example because, because, because, because all my friends got cars when they were 16 yeah, and there was a phone that I wanted in particular that I did not get, and you were very clear about that. There are plenty of things I don't know that we I don't. Yeah, you're gonna have to give some more context there, pop I don't know that we didn't.
Speaker 2:I'll be honest.
Speaker 3:I feel like I got on my list, they were handed. Someone says, hi, I'll be honest, I feel like.
Speaker 2:I got on my list they were handled.
Speaker 1:Someone says hi hey.
Speaker 3:Shiloh, hey, sha Gotta go to the restroom. Go, go, go my baby.
Speaker 5:Give us an example Pop.
Speaker 5:Let me say I'll start with something minor, but let's say clothing trips, just the advantages of doing things, being slower, to give you what you wanted and explain to you more thoroughly how you were getting it, what sacrifice it took to get it. You know, mom often talks about her dad in particular, who reminded her almost every step of the way what she was getting and how it was being given to her, how it was being earned, so that she could increase the appreciation for it. And so I would say I would give you more. I would not be as easy in giving you things as I was. I'd make you earn it a little bit more.
Speaker 5:That's coming out of my own life. I wanted to make sure that you had what I didn't have and you had it more quickly than I had it. But I would unlearn that Part of that would have to be, for example, when you got gifts, not Christmas, of course, but when you got gifts perhaps the next day or the next week they would be in disrepair or disuse or there would be some neglect. There would not be a high appreciation, would be some neglect. There would not be a high appreciation for how you received it and what it took for you to get it, but, in short, I would not give as easily as much as I did.
Speaker 3:Go ahead, Rhoda. So if you look at the outcome of all three of us, how do you think that that impacted? So you're saying what'd you say? So you're saying you would have done, you have wanted us to appreciate more, but how do you see, how do you see that that impacted us in a negative light.
Speaker 5:Now, Um, I'm not sure that I could see now that it impacted you right now, because you've grown to overcome some things yourself, you work in yourself, you know what it takes in order to earn things, things. But I would say, early on I would see just the ease. It was almost like the same ease by which you receive something was the same ease by which it was discarded or unused.
Speaker 1:Is that not? I mean, to me and Rufus, do you find this with? Like, uh, shiloh, who's who is Rufus's son, me and my sister's nephew and, um, our uh, and then my parents, uh, youngest grandchild, he's three, right is this? Is this something you see? I don't know, I'm trying to, I'm. I'm curious is if this is not just a like normal child thing, like that's just what children do, because that, you know, doesn't really matter. Or is it a how, how, how you're parented, like you know, if you, here's the thing.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing Shiloh extremely spoiled, yeah, extremely spoiled. He's going to get whatever he wants whenever he wants. But here's the complication that I don't believe Dad is acknowledging right now. Shiloh goes to the same school that I went to growing up. We went to this elite school where I don't want to say we're the least fortunate, but, but everyone else seems to be in a better financial position. You never know. But so I don't want Shiloh going to school looking like he's not up to par.
Speaker 2:So it may have been the same case with mom and dad I don't know specifically what dad's talking about, but you don't want to send us to school looking like we are not. Perhaps you know in the same class or whatnot. Not that you want to be someone. You're not, but I don't want to send Shiloh to school in clothes that may reflect our true income, so he might get the best of the best clothes. He might get shoes every week Not really, but he might get new shoes every month, which is easier right now because I can just buy $40 shoes and they're brand new.
Speaker 2:But that's part of it. The other thing is, at three years old, it just brings a lot of joy in the house to see a smile on his face. So, coming back home with new toys after he just completely wrecked the house, didn't listen to a word. Me or his mother said completely wrecked, the house didn't listen to a word. Me or his mother said had a horrible report from school and the next day he gets brand new toys. You know, that might be just to add to the spirit of the home, because Shiloh is the life of the party, he's the life of the house and we love seeing a smile on his face. That part is just being a child and not or or um. Trying to be a good parent and contribute to his childhood in a positive way, um.
Speaker 2:I think a more difficult question would be for malachi yeah when I was my oldest son yeah, uh, your oldest nephew and oldest grandchild, who you know he gets spoiled too, and you know he may not. He may not bring the same energy to the household that Shiloh does. He may not be as happy to see dad when he comes home from work like Shiloh is. When I come home from work, shiloh is the happiest kid in the world. So imagine if I come back with a you know, a $10 toy from the store.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's going to be times 10 and it'll make the night that much better. Yeah, malachi expects. He expects certain things. I got an A on my report card. Yeah, you know what am I getting dead? You know he's expecting that, yeah, and so then I try to find ways not to give it to him.
Speaker 4:Can I interject right here, though? A bit of realism. Yeah, it is important. I think it is vitally important, and I had a real advantage growing up. I had a real advantage growing up Didn't know it when I was growing up at all, because my parents' income came from their own small businesses.
Speaker 4:I started working. They started putting me to work in the store at five years old and I would stand on Gerber baby food to even reach the register After the first day of that. That was no fun, that was work. My work at home was work in the store. I didn't have to make up my bed, I didn't have to vacuum, I didn't have to wash dishes was the big thing that all my peers complained about. I never had to do that, but I did have to work in the store, which I didn't like. I grew to absolute hate, but I never chose. That was vital discipline. In my opinion, parenting successfully is to instill self-discipline, because all through life, what you definitely will have is to do things you don't feel like doing. When you don't feel like doing, yeah, you don't have that choice. You have to do some things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And that will go out through life. So why not get that practice as a child? I started at five and I have to say, to the credit of my parents, I really don't have difficulty in most things, in doing what I don't feel like doing. Yeah, honestly, I didn't feel like that. We had a late night last night and dad came and said, rubbed me very gently and said darling, I hate to say this, but we have to do a podcast today. And I'm saying are you joking? But I got up, yes, and I first said you know, it's going to be 10 o'clock really, and he tried to give me 15 minutes. He's that kind and he tried to give me 15 minutes. He's that kind I probably never would have offered to give him 15 minutes, because it is so instilled in me that if I have to do something at a particular time that I don't necessarily feel like doing it, I have to do it, and if I have to break a leg to do it, I'm willing to break a leg.
Speaker 4:That is not in my leg, that did not happen, that is not in my nature. That got instilled in me. Now, the thing that I have learned from my husband, from your dad, is and I have to think about this all the time is to do that in terms of parenting with gentility and I'm careful not to say with love, because I love all of my kids, but I'm not. I also, more is caught than taught, and I caught this lack of gentility, this realism, from my dad, who's a product of the Great Depression. Yeah, that's, I caught. That's in me more than anything else, and I didn't go through anything like the Great Depression.
Speaker 1:But parenting is also setting an example and realizing that more is caught than taught. That's good.
Speaker 2:Papa Jack put her through illegal child labor I don't know what she's saying and he was a product of the great depression. Yes, and uh, you know that is reflected in mom.
Speaker 1:Yes, so well, I think it's. It's. So. There's something that um and I've recently been saying this, I said this to a few people lately because something that I noticed in younger you know in um, something that I noticed in younger you know in, like our son Tyson. He's 10 and he does not like doing hard things at all. You know some of the young people that I work with. They don't like doing hard things and it's just, it is it. It's. It's weird to me because everything that you said, mom, you're right. I mean, we caught that from you and we caught it from dad, because dad grew up in a you know environment where you worked hard and grew up around entrepreneurship and all that stuff, and there's a phrase that he used to say all the time. I know we'll all remember it that when I have recently been saying to people they can't do nothing but laughing, like that's crazy, this idea of winners crawl in sick, losers call in sick, and that's how we, that is how we grew up. You don't like. What do you mean?
Speaker 1:like, if you can breathe and walk, go do what you gotta do, um, or yeah, but I mean like that changed with kobe yeah, well, okay, but like now it's like don't come in, like yeah, no, but I'm saying, though, that the mindset, though, like the mindset that we grew up with, even during covid, I didn't know how to not work, I I found stuff to do because it's like I'm not, I can't just sit here and do nothing, like I don't even know what that kind of life is like. And I think it's because of how we grew up and the expectation that we had. And now I see, and I you know, trying to transfer that to the younger generation is harder, and so what I mean generation is harder, and so what I mean, um rufus, roto. How has that phrase impacted how y'all move, and even how you move with, with, with, uh, with parenting or working with young people, because rota's a teacher, so she works with more young kids than any of us do combined. And so how do you, how does how has that impacted your movement?
Speaker 3:that phrase go ahead, rona no, go, rufus, you go first. Well, okay, I'll go.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll go, I'll go.
Speaker 3:So I now, I don't, I don't know all the science behind it, but there's actually like a I don't know if it's the prefrontal cortex, I don't know if it's the prefrontal cortex, I don't know but scientifically, the way that, what discipline does to grow our brains and to help us to develop, like doing hard things, it literally develops parts of your brain. Now what parts don't know, but it does. It is a. It is a vital piece of development. So now, what you see is kids, even day to day. You know, I'm in a lot of classrooms throughout the day and I get to see hundreds of kids every single day, throughout the day, just learning and a simple challenge, like I don't know this problem, this question right here, is a total shutdown physically, like you see them put their head down. Shut down physically. Like you see them put their head down, you see them totally check out the.
Speaker 3:The first time that a challenge arises and it is, you know, for me the whole winners crawling, losers calling is very much instilled in the sense of like there's no excuses. So like now, even as an administrator with adults who I'm managing is like it's no excuses. Like we, we, we come, we give our best every day, no excuses If you can't do. That like I'm a very all or nothing person. So it's like if I can't do it, then I'm not going to come to work that day. I can't give 60%. It's either zero or a hundred percent for me and it's like, and most of the time I'm going a hundred, but that's also not helping. Yeah To all. Like you can't always. You have to have margin for something. Yeah, it's. Yeah. There are times where you should call in no, there are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a thing right, so I don't know. I heard that phrase a lot growing up. Another one that's relevant to me that I that dad used to say is successful people do what unsuccessful people don't like to do yep, yep yep, both great quotes, yeah, uh yeah, you know, but uh both both great quotes, but uh, also, you know, at times they can be quotes.
Speaker 2:Maybe you guys received the training differently than I did, because for me, right, one of the perks of my job is we get a cumulative of 30 days of PTO, and some people have been working with the company for years and they just don't use it. I'm not one of those people. I'm going to use all 30 days, but I will say, sometimes I use it creatively and actually 100% of the time I use it creatively and when I'm not working at work, I choose not to crawl in sick because I'm actually working on my side hustle and I need something else to do so personally. Personally, I'm going to work 100% of the time, but make no mistake about it, at this job and if I ever take interviews for other jobs, the PCO is very important because I'm going to need time off to do my own thing, yeah, and I'm going to use sick days as vacation days, whether I'm sick or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's like I think it's applied a little bit differently in that it's not really I'm going to go to work every single day. It's more like or I'm not going to go to work every single day, it's more like or I'm not going to go into work every single day, it's more like I'm going to put in work every single day. Yeah, and also as a parent of y'all everybody, y'all know, y'all know Malachi's, you know dreams and what he's achieving to be and everything and they don't know.
Speaker 4:You know dreams and what he's achieving to be and everything, and luckily, he's blessed with athletic ability.
Speaker 2:Nothing, you know, he's not LeBron James or anything like that, but you know I had a little skill. We have skill in our family and his mother's side has that times 10 on their side, so he's been blessed with an athletic gift that none of us, or neither on his other side of the family they, don't have either. And so pushing him is or teaching him this principle is very much appropriate, especially that successful people do what unsuccessful people don't like to do. Yeah, because he's trying to make it to a place where very few people, no matter how talented they are, make it. Yeah. And so if he's not doing way more than anyone else, he knows you know he's not going to be able to make it to where he wants to go. Knows you know he's not going to be able to make it to where he wants to go.
Speaker 2:So I do find myself instilling that in him even more than I apply to myself, because there's no room at his age and for his goals, for him to take days off. And so, you know, I definitely think that's a relevant principle. Like mom was saying, more is caught than taught. So you know, his mom does a good job of showing him work ethic. I think I do a good job of showing him work ethic, but his has to even exceed that. Once you dad was saying you know, we may have gotten off easy in certain, in certain ways, but over time he's seen us be able to kind of kind of understand how life is and earn what we want or what we need yeah where is malachi is not going to be again to make it to where he wants to go.
Speaker 2:he doesn't have time to have that lack, that lag and then catch back up right, so he wants to go. He doesn't have time to have that lag and then catch back up Right, so he has to learn that.
Speaker 4:The reality is too Rufus that no one Shiloh won't either. Whatever it is and that work ethic is what you're putting into it he may go the direction everybody seems to think he's going, but if he doesn't for some reason break two feet and two hands and he just can't do that, whatever what's in him is whatever. Wherever, in my opinion, the Lord leads him and the track that he takes him on, he's going to recognize. He's got to invest discipline, self-discipline yes. He's got to train. He's got to practice. Whatever it is, yeah. Whether it's, you know, it doesn't matter. That's the important principle. Yes, I believe that principle was instilled in me.
Speaker 5:Yeah, let me say Working in the store.
Speaker 4:I don't like working in the store, but I got the principle. Yes, and that's great what you're doing.
Speaker 5:What I would say is you know those are. I think those are bedrock principles, I think they're biblical. They're not meant to be, though, so dogmatic that there is no margin, and I think both of you, rhoda and Rufus, expressed that. There are times when you are sick you should not go in, and so forth, but you get the general principle. And, of course, today, when I've said that, people recoil, or a few people recall, at the winner loser concept. Yeah, because I'm not saying you're a loser, but without explanation, some people can take it that way.
Speaker 1:Some people can take it that way.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I've often thought about modifying to say winning is crawling in sick, mediocrity is crawling in sick. Well, but for people who are more sensitive because I'm not calling you a loser, but I'm saying if you do that all the time, then you are not going to be successful at whatever you do. But I believe in margin I wouldn't exist without it. I think you have to have margin for your spiritual and mental health, and taking all the days that a company gives you is smart. I don't encourage people who work for me not to do that. I want you to do it because I know you're a better person in doing so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like so this Rufus, the phrase you use successful people do what unsuccessful people don't want to do Is that, did I get that right? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't like to do? Yeah, don't like to do. So. What I think is because, even at the backdrop of this current principle, is this definition of what you think success is, and I think you know a lot of. It's interesting. I don't know that I could have defined success for myself. Growing up, I didn't know. I don't think I would have pinpointed exactly what that looks like, other than I graduate and I go to college. That's about where I, where I could stop. You know, um Rhoda, when you were growing up, what was success for you? What did that mean?
Speaker 3:What did that mean? Success was, I think, in the context in which we went to school and what I saw particularly Women, moms and then my own mom like that's how I define success. So success for me personally was, yes, going to college was a piece of that, because we went to a college preparatory school. Yeah, um, it was also as a woman. It was getting married to someone successful and having children. So it was like getting a college degree but also making sure that you find a man who is a good man, who is a successful man, and having children who can also follow that path, children who can also follow that path. And so, for me, that's what. That's what. How I would have defined success for myself. Okay, I would not have defined success as in the career aspect, okay.
Speaker 1:Interesting, yeah, and I think I would have Opposite direction.
Speaker 3:I mean I've gone more in that direction than the other one, and I think I would have opposite direction.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've gone more in that direction than than the other one, and I think I would have. Probably that's the only way I could see success was being successful career-wise and, like I think that's the way I defined it success equals success and career. What did you think um Rue?
Speaker 2:I. What I did think is the same thing of what I do think now, and it is how much money can you make per year? That is how I define success.
Speaker 2:How much money you can make per year, whether that is you have. So what I took pride in, so what I took pride in now I'm not going to say that, but I did take pride in I didn't look at that as a hindrance, I didn't look at that as something that held me back, uh, from making as much money as I possibly could. Now I definitely do. I'm like I need to go get a college degree, I need to get a master's, and that's what I need to do to get to where I want to go, because I used to look at entrepreneurial ventures and think that I was going to make it doing something in the entrepreneurship way, making enough money to do whatever I want to do, which possibly could still happen. But I see how much it can help to have financial backing, to have a job that pays enough for me to fund entrepreneurial ventures, or for me to invest in the stock market without having money, or invest in real estate or whatever it may be, instead of waiting for my music career to take off, or instead of waiting for some idea that I have to take off without having the money to market it the money for. And I took for granted the education that I had and that I had access to, because I wasn't focused on getting the grade. I wasn't focused on that. I don't, I don't, I'm not fulfilled by a grade, by doing all of this work and what I get from that is an A on a test or an A on a paper or an A on whatever on a transcript. That never hit home for me until I recognized oh, I need that A to get this degree so that I can work for this Fortune 500 company, so that I can make an extra $150,000, so that I can fund this entrepreneurial venture that I want to do. It never really connected for me like that the way it does now. And now I see myself. I'm in sales and if I were to have a degree I would be on a different level of sales that I am as a 36-year-old guy. That's how I see it now. So I see success back then it's always been how much money you can make, and I can.
Speaker 2:That sounds superficial. It could be, but also I think that's a reflection of fatherhood. I think it's like how much money you make is a reflection of the example you are to the kids. A reflection of the example you are to the kids. It's a reflection of discipline. It's a reflection of undisciplined people are not going to make a lot of money If you sit around and you watch Netflix all day and you drink and you smoke and you find ways to barely work. It's just not going to equal up. So I can say living a disciplined life is how I look at success. But for me it's all measured by how much money you can make, and I'm not. You know it sounds superficial, but that's where I am.
Speaker 4:Maybe? Yeah. Let me just add this it's not superficial. Degree is one mean in America, in our American socioeconomic system, by which you can succeed in whatever Succeed is an individual definition. You don't need a degree. No, you don't.
Speaker 4:As far as making money is concerned, the key to that is how well it's invested. Now, if a degree is a limitation to a person understanding how well you invest to make the money, make money. Money is only the thing that can work and it doesn't need energy, it't need sleep, doesn't need food, but you know what it needs behind it. What the dollar needs behind it is the thinking, the brain, on where and how to invest it to make it make money. You don't make money. The best you can do as an individual is to have a job that gives you a check and you can work a little bit harder and get a little elevation and make a little bit more on that check. But in our socioeconomic system, the higher you get, the more you are required socially to spend. So the key is not your individually making more money, it's how you think to make your money. Make money. Money is what makes money. The investment is what makes money. Money is what makes money. The investment is what makes money.
Speaker 2:So what I'm saying for me.
Speaker 4:A person with a degree can do that and a person without a degree can do that. My dad had a ninth grade education and what taught him how to invest and make money was working his way, feeling his way, finding his way through the Great Depression. That's what did. He didn't choose to drop out at ninth grade, he had to. And I just want to get that concept that's a misnomer A check. If you are making $100,000 now, next year, next 10 years, you're making $250,000, you're also at a different social level where, if you're making $250,000, you're interacting with two people. That's making that. That's going to make you spend. So you can make $100,000, $100,000, and your group that you're interacting with will demand, without words, with actions, that you spend and be a part of that group. So you cannot work hard enough to make more money. The key is investing, yeah, and you don't have the degree to invest. I'm not down in degrees at all. I got two. That's not the issue, but one of the things and I'll just interact this and then I'll let the floor go but one of the things that my sponsoring professor in graduate school asked me when I finished my master's and I was trying to make a decision. I didn't have any job offers. I didn't really know what I wanted to do professionally and I said well, you know, I'll just go on and get a PhD.
Speaker 4:And he said to me at that time he asked me a question and he said Jackie, do you want to teach on the college level what you know? I said no, I don't. If I teach, I want to teach on the college level what you know. I said no, I don't. If I teach, I want to teach on the kindergarten level. He said don't waste any money on the PhD, you don't need it. The only thing that you actually need it for is teaching on a college level. The rest of it is a waste of money. So it's not. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, I get what you're saying I'm saying.
Speaker 2:I'm saying for me the way I was raised. In the college preparatory program I have tried entrepreneurial things and I've been in the workforce and I'm wired to be able to make money in the workforce at jobs that require degrees. I'm more suited for the way I was raised. I'm more suited for jobs that require degrees. That's where I want to be. That's more suited for jobs that require degrees. That's where I want to be. That's where I want to. That's the type of jobs that I want.
Speaker 2:And so when I didn't get the degree, it made me go on a different path that I wasn't necessarily either raised or comfortable being so with me doing music for so long and sticking to it because I don't want to give up just because I'm not successful financially. It never worked out because at the end of the day, that's not what I was trained to do. I wasn't trained business-wise to be able. I didn't know the principles on how I could make it in music. I knew how to be creative, but that didn't make the money.
Speaker 2:Now I know what it would have taken to flourish in my music career and it would have taken a large the way. I think it would have taken a large lump sum of money to be able to put into different marketing avenues, which driving for Uber and working for nonprofit industries wasn't going to be enough for. So for me personally, I'm saying the way I was brought up was it wasn't what's the word I'm looking for. It wasn't. It wasn't what's the word I'm looking for. I don't know the word I'm looking for, but it wasn't conducive to the dreams that I had. So if I is, it is anything I'm saying make sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it wasn't a line, yeah it does.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't a line. There you go, that's the word, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I get that. And so, pop, let me let me ask you this as you're listening to this and hearing this, these you know Rufus fleshed his out a little bit more with success and hearing that and then how mom was explaining that you know degrees andus's experience. At this point he's seeing I actually needed that for success and you know this is what I understood growing up and I would say that I even it's weird at the like at this stage of my life. Now I think I'm always at the opposite side of you, rufus, like for what I feel like I'm wired to do, I don't think I need a degree for it. I need experience for it, and I got it. My degree is fine and, yes, it opens certain doors or it could, but there's nothing that I'm going for that requires that. And so for you you're like the things that I actually want to go for does require it.
Speaker 1:I'm just curious, pop, as you're hearing this, when you think about how you know your, your, your approach to parenting our children in a way that helps to curve our alignment as adults. I hope that makes sense, because I don't know. Some of it is like I don't know you even know it till you get to, till you just journey through it. So some of it just might. You just got to work your way through it and figure it out on the back end. Or is there a way to unlearn some things around how you what to instill in order to, um, in order for for adult children to be on a path that makes sense for them?
Speaker 5:Um, yeah, believe it or not, I understood that, Okay, um, let me. Let me go back and say it goes without saying in the definition of success to all of you, I trust it goes without saying that success is holistic holistic. We've been focusing on one aspect.
Speaker 5:The success is to have. I mean it's three components it is spiritual, it's relational, it's financial, and all of don't have a college degree nor a seminary degree, and to a large degree that was. We worked very hard to do that. With your mom having a graduate degree, we wanted to make sure you did that as well, and so it was not because the degree in and of itself would guarantee success, but it was the discipline in receiving that degree that would transfer to life in general. Yeah, and all of you have done that. I mean you have had discipline with Abigail, you with music, son with sports and music, and Rhoda with education. All of you have had that degree of discipline that is transferred into your life experiences.
Speaker 5:And so I would encourage parents to, even if you didn't have it yourself, like my parents didn't and I was the first in my family to really be invested in to go to a four-year college, and I disappointed them, I let them down. They worked hard to ensure that I had every advantage to go to school and I did for three years, but I couldn't get over the finish line. That was such a disappointment to me because I disappointed them and I carried that into my parenting and said I don't ever want my kids to have to have that kind of failure. I'm going to give him every chance to succeed, no matter what. So I think it's important that parents whether it's education or whether it's just work experience that they convey to their children what success really is, and that is holistic. You know, the spiritual, the relational and the financial, and it's not just one or the other.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So this is for you, dad, and then this is also for you, rufus, I. So when you said you disappointed them, is that you saying that you disappointed them, feeling like you were a disappointment? Did they ever say that you disappointed them? And then, rufus I'm specifically tailoring it to y'all two, because y'all are y'all are actually like two of the most brilliant people that I think y'all on this screen could say that we know and do not have a degree. Okay, do not have a degree.
Speaker 5:I got a high school diploma though. Very good, I got a high school diploma, so does that?
Speaker 3:Please, very good, you got a high school degree. Please, yeah, but now for me, I have the most degrees, but I actually like going through getting the degrees. I never thought about the actual paper degree. It was the learning for me. It was also the social aspect for me that was that's packed in a piece of paper. It's also the learning that comes from that and the connections that I was able to make through that. Um, but for you y'all you kept saying like you're a disappointment. I've never now I did have those words actually come out of right, those mouths, because I know for you, for mom and dad, y'all have never said that to rufus but he had. It doesn't mean that he doesn't felt that. So, like y'all never said you're a disappointment for not getting a degree, because that's not actually what y'all believe. But you feel that.
Speaker 5:Yes, I do feel that Insecurity. No, I know it. My parents were gracious enough not to say it and still supported me. But I look, they invested, they spent money they didn't have and I did not cross the finish line. I got close, but I didn't cross the finish line. They didn't have to say that we're disappointed. You didn't do it. I just know it and it's not just self-induced to me, it is. I didn't, I blew it.
Speaker 5:Okay, so I have spent my life trying to overcome that, so that they could be proud in other ways, and I think they've seen that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:There you go Ten times, but so that they could be proud in other ways. And I think they've seen that yeah, of course they've seen it Ten times the cold. But okay, so for you, rufus, do you? And for you, mom and dad, were y'all disappointed in Rufus for not getting-?
Speaker 2:I don't need the encouragement. I know they're going to say no.
Speaker 5:No, no, I'm not going to say no. I'm not going to say no, I'm going to say yes.
Speaker 3:No, let me set it up. Let me set it up. He overcome. Yeah, okay, but here's the setup, because the reality is, you all also invested in all three of us to go to college, specifically like to go to college. We went to a college preparatory school to go to college. That was everyone that we went to school with, like to college, went to college, went to college At some point. They may have not graduated, but they went to college. And so for you, son Rufus, what is the?
Speaker 2:did you feel like a disappointment? And why? I felt more of a as a disappointment because of the path I went down instead of school. So the reasons I dropped out of school and couldn't get back in school, I know was a disappointment, whether it was.
Speaker 4:A disappointment to you or to us? What? What do you know?
Speaker 2:I know that it was a disappointment to y'all. I know one thousand percent that it's a disappointment to see me on the couch, not in school, not working, getting high. Yeah, I know for sure, smoking weed disappointed you instead of going to school.
Speaker 2:I know for sure. I know for sure you love and have, since before he was born, loved Malachi the day, you know since, the idea of me having a child. But I do know that the decision that went into having a child before being married, when that all I was taught was not to do that, I do know that that was disappointing. You don't have to say it wasn't, I'm not offended, I do know. So. I don't think that you were disappointed by me not receiving a degree.
Speaker 4:I think that would happen instead of me receiving a degree. Let me interject here Disappointment. I want to be sure that anybody who hears this disappointment is not synonymous with giving up on yeah. No, I never gave up on you, son, since you're the degree-less one, I never gave up on that. Neither one of y'all have a degree, but I never gave up. Dead serious. But that may be disappointment and really.
Speaker 2:That was the question.
Speaker 4:My disappointment was in me. You can take this as trying to encourage you or not, you know. Let me give you one example that I don't know if any of you, dad, may remember this, but there was a lady at the school you went to Second Baptist, whose husband worked with Dad at the institution. He was working at at that time and she was at Second and she was in the church. It was Second Baptist Church and she wanted she was in missions church and she wanted she was in missions. And she asked me uh, if, for some project that she was doing, if in the family life center, in the biggest foyer in that huge campus there, if, if they could take your picture and they didn't have access at the school, which is when the picture would have been taken. But the three African-American kids and they wanted to take your picture, son, and put it on that whole wall as part of a mission project.
Speaker 2:Jesus no, that's part of a DEI mission project Jesus. No, that's part of a. Dei mission project.
Speaker 4:I said no, I thought about it. I said give me some time to think. Now you at that time, with your personality that I think is coming out very clearly here, would have loved to have seen that, and I know you would have loved to have seen that and I know you would have loved to have seen it. But today you would have been beating me up about that. Yes, I said no. She said are you sure they begged? Her husband worked on that at his place of employment and I said no, we're not going to do it. I came to that because that was projecting right away that you were and you would have loved just seeing your picture at that time without really recognizing what it reflected. But later he would have become the poverty stricken, poor, disadvantaged kid, and all three of them. That really wasn't the case. No, not at all. So it's a matter of the choices at the time that was made. Mean, that was. I just wanted to make that point. I I didn't mean to throw you throw you off.
Speaker 2:Just to, just to reiterate, just to reiterate I'm sorry say it again just to reiterate for the audience I do not think your plan for me was to receive an appointment to the United States Naval Academy and say no, I would like to get high and not pursue the education at one of the world's premier institutions.
Speaker 1:Right, no, let's be clear, that is that was yes, Like I think, and I think that that's the no, that wasn't. I think we can be honest about that and, like mom said, it wasn't that there is a difference between being disappointed and giving up on, and I think that is and that, and so that's very clear, that, that, that there was no giving up. But we can be honest about, as parents, we are disappointed in children, right, and and I think and I think, mom, you made a great point not just in children, but sometimes disappointed in yourself because of, sometimes, the choices that children make. So you know, I think, I think that what I, you all work through a process of, and us having conversations like this all the time, of hearing where we are in our perspectives as adults, that we didn't understand when we were younger, even when y'all were younger, less experienced parents, and understand that you're not going to everything, that two things are true Everything that your child does you won't like, and everything that you do you won't like, but it doesn't mean that it has to turn out bad Like it's. It is, and I think that's something that that is important to unlearn for for parents, people who are going to be parents. You're not going to be, you're not going to get everything right, even if in the moment, you think it's the right decision. Down the line you may be like, oh, maybe we should have changed that. Like I think that's been the theme of some of what you've been saying, pop Like, yeah, I probably shouldn't have given them the amount of things that they wanted.
Speaker 1:In my perspective, that maybe should have worked harder for this or, you know, waited for these things, uh, but at the end of the day, it wasn't a failure of your, your, on your part, um, and there are things that you absolutely did, that were right, but the, I think the, the, the way to measure that is looking at things over time and not just in the moment, because the moments don't always measure up. That's going to be the case because we're human, but over time, things can turn out better. We all have that story, those stories of, in certain moments, as children, as parents, even with y'all, even as grandparents, I've messed up, like, or I don't think, I don't think this was right, or they have messed up and they shouldn't have done this, this and that, but then, 10 years down the line, it's like well, those things ended up making them better or putting something in them that maybe they couldn't have if they had always been successful, and I think the other side of success is what we would call failure. But I don't always think it's failure, it's just learning. Pop, what were you about to say?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I agree, I agree wholeheartedly. Now, as Son alluded to before, it's a failure to me Now it may not be to you, but all parents can say the overriding grace of God and I try to remind myself of that the overriding grace of God will override mistakes. His grace will override mistakes. Maybe I knew and maybe I didn't know, but it doesn't matter. God and grace of God will bring children to the point, frankly, where he's brought you, irrespective of our parenting, and he's brought you to this place.
Speaker 5:I'm proud of all of you and son, even though you and I only have a high school diploma, you are still, when it comes just to money, you are in the as far as a household income. You are not average as far as that's concerned. So now that's just aspect of money. But I'm proud of the life you have, the kids, what you're instilling in them, but that's human beings doing as much as they can, that's human responsibility. But then sovereign power of God is doing what we can't do, and so that overriding grace has brought us all to where we are. And I think parents need to recognize that, even when you know you failed or don't even think you failed, and others say you haven't failed and you may know in your heart of hearts no, I would not learn that Even though it turned out for the good, it is still the overriding grace of God that gets us over the hump it is still the overriding grace of God that gets us over the hump.
Speaker 1:So I'll end on this. It's kind of a big question, but I want to end on it because I think it speaks to the generational diversity on this call. So, rhoda, I'll start with you specifically, because I know you're going to love this question. What cycles do you see? Oh, I know, I know, I know Rhoda loves these questions. Uh, what cycles can you? Can you um see, through your observation of being in education and seeing you know young people and being, um, uh, young people today, and uh, also, just in just with your personal experience need to be broken with parenting today.
Speaker 3:Oh, with parenting today I thought you were talking about with our specific family.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, yeah, so I want to use that as a backdrop, right? So use, use the experience here, but also your, your own personal experience in education and just what things that you see. What are some important cycles that need to be broken across generations, that are persistent, that are not helpful?
Speaker 3:I think one of the biggest things is is taking responsibility, ownership for your actions, and a lot, of, a lot of times, what I'm seeing now is and part of the reason why educators have such is such a fight every day is because we don't have the backing of many families and a lot of times, like if we're having, you know whatever type of it could be, any issue you know happening with the student, a common response from a family is blaming the adult and not putting responsibility on the child and teaching them that concept. I think the other thing is like making sure that you are the dominant teacher of your children, not the phone. Once you hand a child a phone, you have handed them the entire world and that is their teacher now. And so then what happens is what we're seeing a big thing it actually parents your child for you and it allows for you, as the adult, to not have to be in the weeds of teaching your child all the little things.
Speaker 3:And that's one thing that, like you know, with mom, I am seeing every single thing she does. That's just her natural inclination and you know, and that's what grandma, her mom, did. Everything is a teachable moment, every single part of every day, like, and that was, and we don't. We didn't realize growing up that everything that we know to do is literally taught to the to how we hold our toothbrush, to yes, how you know like, yeah, brush your gums, brush your tongue, like. These are things that the smallest things that she would teach us how to do that is being missed now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good, Rufus, what about you? And then mom and dad. I'm going to reframe the question for y'all. So after he answers, let me reframe the question. Rue, what about you?
Speaker 2:So, first of all, I was spoken like a true auntie. That is the same energy she gives me, even though she encourages me as a parent. Rhoda will get on me for it. That's how all of them have fun. They're all playing phone games and there's nothing else going on. You don't want to just leave them out. That's one, wait, that's one, but two. That phone.
Speaker 2:It does get me in trouble because one thing I don't recall growing up. I don't recall my parents being wrong. I know they were wrong and now that I'm a parent I know that they had moments where they probably went in the back and was like did I handle that correctly? Maybe I was wrong to do this and they probably were dealing with that as well. I never saw it and I remember when I was in college or even later in life, when I realized something that mom or dad told me, I was like wait, that doesn't add up, that's not right. But at the time I would never even think that they were wrong. They were Google.
Speaker 2:The problem is I find myself with Malachi, my oldest, and even Shiloh, like they call me out in real time. That's not right, dad. I mean I'll say something. I'll say something is red and they'll look it up immediately and see that it's blue, and I have no idea but to kind of just shrink myself in the moment and be like you know what 12 year old, you are correct, and so. So that is. That is something that you have to navigate, and the pride of going to my child every other day and being like all right, you were right, I was wrong.
Speaker 2:It's very challenging, but that phone, like Rhoda is saying, does teach them a lot. I will say there's a lot of good. I know Rhoda knows that too. Being around kids, things that you see, whether it's TikTok or whatever app they're looking at, that may teach them things that I didn't even know how to teach them. Or Malachi may teach us hey, his job is to do the kitchen every single night. He's taught us so many different creative ways on how to clean grease out of pots that I did not teach him. I say, son, you have to do it like this, or else this is going to clog up the dishwasher. And, dad, if you just add a little bit of lemon juice and a little bit of this, take this.
Speaker 2:Mr Scrub and do this, it comes right off. I'm like it doesn't work like that. Well, dad, why did I just do it? And it worked like that, you know? So it's just like oh, oh, okay, you're right, um, so those things are challenging, but at the same time, um, at the same time, she does have a point in that it is tough to teach social values, family, family time, family value, like you lose a lot by giving in to the new way of the world in 2025, where kids do get phones at early ages. There is disadvantages. I do see parents that still hold out and their kids don't get a phone, and I see the benefits that that has as well. But I kind of see both sides to it. So I don't know if I probably didn't even answer the question.
Speaker 1:I did want to say that. No, you answered it.
Speaker 3:I have to say this in rebuttal I am not saying, I'm not taking a stance on when to give a child a phone. I'm just saying or if they need a phone, or whatever. What I'm saying is the phone cannot and should not be the primary and first teacher of anything. The only reason that Mally was able to come back and tell you that is because you all taught him that the dishes must be done, that the kitchen must be clean, whatever. So now I'm looking, so now that's a supplement to your teaching. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, it can't be the primary and it has become a primary teacher for many, many kids yeah.
Speaker 2:Last thing I want to say about Rhoda as an auntie, I try to have authority over my kids. It's also like and my mother, my mother backs me, she, she has. You know, I'm a reflection of mom in a lot of ways. When parenting Malachi, you have to earn everything that you, that you are given. And if you get in trouble at school, which Malachi is in a rebellion, you know he's kind of in a rebellious stage right now, 14 years old, which Malachi is in a rebellion. He's kind of in a rebellion stage right now at 14 years old. And so we're taking things away from him. Whether we take his phone, we withhold some of his allowance. He may want something to buy something, and it doesn't happen.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you what Rhoda does and Malachi knows how to take advantage with that phone. So Malachi will get a certain allowance per month and if he doesn't get a grade, if he gets in trouble at school, if he doesn't handle his business or anything like that, get a bad report from a teacher. I'm not going to give you that allowance. And a lot of times with his allowance he'll buy things off this TikTok store that are pretty cool gadgets. I can't remember what he wanted. I think he wanted a hat or something like that to wear to school. He didn't take care of business. No, you're not getting your allowance for this at all.
Speaker 2:This guy goes behind my back hey, auntie, text Rhoda, and without me even knowing, I just see a hat show up at my door. How did you get this hat? He don't want to tell me. He don't want to tell me how he got the hat. I have no idea how he got the money to get the hat until I go through his phone and check his cash app and see who gave him the money. Without telling me, without knowing what's going on in our house. Here's a hundred dollars, nephew, you can have it anytime, you know so. So all this stuff she's talking about, she does not have my back, she does not support me trying to be a great parent and she funds my. She funds the rebellious nature of my child.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good, all right. Yeah, yeah, that's very good, okay, so, all right. So, mom and dad, I have one last question for you all and I'm going to reframe it a little bit what cycles do you hope? And, mom, I'm going to have you answer this first what cycles do you hope are broken with our parenting our children? Broken with our parenting our children? What do you hope changes in the way, or what do you hope stays the same and doesn't change, because you think it doesn't need to change as far as us parenting our children?
Speaker 4:Well, when I reflect on things that I did that I was proud of and things that I did that I'm not proud of, I was thinking. I've thought many times when one was going through what I would consider negative cycles or cycles that I would prefer that he had not gone through, I thought about one instance that repeated itself in our relationship, sons and mine in particular, that exited the other three of you. I worked part-time at the school you went to and I did. Carpool was one of the things that I did and I remember almost I did carpool. I don't know so many days. We had a couple of days a week where we had to do carpool each teaching, and Rufus was out there with me, as all of you were. He had specific instructions on what to do when I'm doing garpu, he did absolutely the opposite. He just literally did not obey my rules on what to do while I'm standing outside on the walkway receiving and delivering other kids to the cars.
Speaker 4:And I have thought so many times the principle that I'm trying to bring out, so I don't forget it, bring out so I don't forget it is parent your child, parent that child individually, based on his particular needs. Yeah, and I said in my mind many times over again when he was out there, sort of if I had just done what I was instinctively wanted to do grab him, take him to the bathroom and wear his behind out. That would have slowed him up. But he knew number one. We were in an environment that didn't believe in that number one, in spanking or anything, and so he would just flat run all over the place knowing I'm giving rufus. You know better, don't do that. That's as far as I go.
Speaker 4:When my instinct was to grab him, tell miss joe, who was my other partner you can handle my. I got to go to the bathroom with this boy and just and he was going to scream till the whole school would hear it and I, if I had ignored that I'm saying to myself years later and just wore him out. But I didn't want to defy the social standards and cause major embarrassment for me, you and Roland Dad, and you know they're saying that ignorant mom, what is she doing? Doesn't she know some other kind of psychological tactic to use? No, I didn't. All I did was beat him, basically, and I kept. I would have thwarted his path. Dear Lord, forgive me, but I didn't do that with you and Rhoda, but I needed to do that with him and I did. Yeah, yeah, wow Is? Each child is an individual and you got to parent him accordingly.
Speaker 1:I think, what I'm, what I'm hearing, what I've heard specifically so far, even Rufus he was talking about the need to humble yourself as a parent because your child might be teaching you. Rhoda was talking about the idea of not letting the phone be the primary teacher of your child. Those are cycles that have to be broken. We can't have too much pride as a parent and you can't give away too much responsibility. And then from you, mom, I'm hearing that individually, parent your child. Don't ignore the unction to parent children the way you know they should, because of, maybe, societal pressures or maybe it not being the same as other children, because you don't know what that decision might do for their future, right? So, pop, I want to give you the last word on this. What unlearning, what cycle, what mindset change do you hope is the case, or mindset, maybe not change again, but it could be something that you hope is kept throughout our parenting, as we continue to have children. I raise children.
Speaker 5:All right. So I'm going to read Ephesians, chapter six, verse four, and I hope this continues because I think you're doing it. And now a word to you parents Don't keep on scolding and nagging your children, making them angry and resentful. Rather, bring them up with the loving discipline the Lord himself approves, with suggestions and godly advice with suggestions and godly advice, whether it's being an aunt, a rota, whether the two of you being parents.
Speaker 5:I want to see that continue, because I think you're doing that instinctively by not scolding and nagging, individualizing your children, picking them up when they're discouraged, remembering your own failures. I think I'd love to see you continue along that path. I wish you would get the Christmas spirit that you were raised with in your children and not commercialize Christmas, but rather their birthdays, and so I'm holding out hope that I think you're trying to balance it a little bit, but I would love to see you come all the way, full force, and say you know what? We're not going to do anything for you on Christmas unless it's related to the wider kingdom, but on your birthday you are the center of attention.
Speaker 2:So that's what I hope you know I got to say I do. I do recognize what you really accomplished by doing that and I recognize, like I said in front of us, you presented it. You presented the reason of us not getting Christmas gifts. But now that I'm a father, I understand the true reason and it's because the $1,500 that I'm spending on Christmas gifts could be going elsewhere and I could be saving that money and I could frame that as you know what we don't get presents on Jesus's birthday. I understand completely what you did there, dad. I understand it completely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. Oh, my God, all right, so y'all, thank you so much. This has been, this has been once, what one of a kind podcast. This is definitely the first time I had as many people on here at one time, and this is the first time that we have been on as a whole family, and so I hope that you, uh, you all, have gained something of this conversation. Um, I think we all have, uh, and just so you know, these types of conversations. We have these times 10, all the time in real life, around our kitchen table and, um, it's what, what has what has become normal for us? Huh, dining room table. Okay, yeah, so there you go, all right.
Speaker 5:I'm not sure how healthy it is for people to look in on us doing family therapy. It's already done. It's already done. We're working through our own issues. We are Hopefully biblically and viscerally, but I'm sure people will appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Oh, people will definitely appreciate this. I do.
Speaker 3:For the record, this was actually not even deep for us at all.
Speaker 1:This is very mild. I will say this is very mild. I love it. I think it's just enough for the audience. I don't think they need any more. I think we've done what we're supposed to do, and so this is y'all. Keep tuning in to the Unlearned Podcast. As you know, we're growing our community of unlearners, and so if this was valuable to you, make sure to share it. Let other people know, don't keep it to yourself. And keep tuning in for the weeks to come, for the next series and our following episodes. We appreciate y'all. Thank you, family, and so let's keep unlearning together so that we can all experience more freedom, peace. Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned Podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.
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